Stats, skill skill ups, macros and you

[Dubanka]

in one of the posts below, it is stated (correctly i believe, i think i remember the same thing) that hps increase with levels.

with the current skill grind, this system is just begging to be abused by macroers. why?

design components that rely on the repetition of an action to improve are (typically) easily macrod, and those that utilize the macro usually increase skills at a rate faster than those that don't.

The fact that character stats (ie. health) are tied to levels, which are tied to skill ups, is very bad news for those of us who are anti-macro. The only real way to defeat the macro advantage is for (drum roll) macroing not to provide an advantage. In myy mind this would equate to (in this environment) faster skill ups, and a fairly rapid means of skill degradation (if it wasn't used)...of course you'd only get xp for skill levels higher than any previously attained. The 'harder' (ie more tedious) you make the skill advancement process, the more benefit you give to those that would automate the process.

I don't have much of a dog in this hunt, since i doubt i'm much longer for hte community...at least for a while...so, i'm just sayin'...food for thought.

[mrcalhou]

Pretty much what you said. One thing they could do is to make actions require more input besides click and wait, such as using abilities and timing actions. This would make harvesting and crafting more interesting and less macro friendly. For combat, they could make it so that skill-ups are only rewarded upon the death of something. It wouldn't prevent players from macroing on their friends in PvP, but at least they'll have to keep respawning. There are also solutions that I'm not thinking of. It basically comes down to do developers try to do something different or do they completely stick to the UO-type macro system. They don't need to reinvent the wheel, but not all wheels are built the same.

[xyberviri]

basically if there was some sorta of mini game that could of possibly been made for the crafting part of the system you could prevent macroing.

how ever that might be seen as cheesy to some players.

[MrDDT]

basically if there was some sorta of mini game that could of possibly been made for the crafting part of the system you could prevent macroing.

how ever that might be seen as cheesy to some players.

Not if you reward people correctly.

Ive already said this idea a few times, but pretty much make it a choice for people. Like this.
Your first choice should be:
1)Craft all (This gives least chance of success like maybe 33% this is an insta craft using ALL the resources on you.)
2)Craft 1 (Highest chance with extra options to come 90% base)
3)Craft until stop. (This gives 90% base with -1% per craft until bottoms out at 50%)

Next choice with option #2 is that you get extra options. You can do this each time that will increase your chance to not fail, also give you options to maybe yield 2 or 3 etc. Also might increase the QL or durability.
This option will pop up random boxes that you have to choose the right option. Something like, "This blade needs to be tempered" Then 3 choices pop up, add water, sand, or leather. You would want to choose water.
This happens as each one crafts. Sometimes more than once. If you pick the right ones, you get bonus stuff, if you pick the wrong ones you get failure stuff.


Its that simple. I posted this somewhere else, but I cant be bothered to go find it again.
There are so many ways to make it work well, I dont even really know what to post about it anymore. Seems like its not even going to be put ever into place like this. Which clearly something needs to be done with the boring crafting.

[Dubanka]

beyond the 'prevention gimmicks'...it's just the system itself...any system that rewards extended periods of repetitive 'grind' is ripe for macro abuse...and that is dangerous for a game like this because it gives the macroer a clear advantage over a non macroer.

[Aiden]

Yup...again I agree with the call for a change....and again, I'd love to see something interactive like VG or EQ2 for crafting....

[mrcalhou]

I'd like to see a game where character stats aren't king. A game where progression isn't climbing the ladder of power so much, but rather opening more options. I really like Eve's system of opening up new pathways. I also like how Eve's ship/equipment system balances out so that there isn't one best ship, but rather a lot of different ships that fill unique roles. It's sort of the opposite of how Darkfall is all about becoming the best at everything because you are everything at one time.

[MrDDT]

I'd like to see a game where character stats aren't king. A game where progression isn't climbing the ladder of power so much, but rather opening more options. I really like Eve's system of opening up new pathways. I also like how Eve's ship/equipment system balances out so that there isn't one best ship, but rather a lot of different ships that fill unique roles. It's sort of the opposite of how Darkfall is all about becoming the best at everything because you are everything at one time.

One a soft cap, or skill cap is in place, you will see this change.
Darkfall has no skill cap. So everyone can be everything.
Eve is the same way at the end it just takes longer to see it. I would rather see something like UO where people mix and match based on their playstyle.

Im expecting a softcap to come into play once more things are balanced out and features are put into the game.

[Deacon]

One a soft cap, or skill cap is in place, you will see this change.

Im expecting a softcap to come into play once more things are balanced out and features are put into the game.

Yeah, by the time this happens...Macroers will already be kings.

[mrcalhou]

One a soft cap, or skill cap is in place, you will see this change.
Darkfall has no skill cap. So everyone can be everything.
Eve is the same way at the end it just takes longer to see it. I would rather see something like UO where people mix and match based on their playstyle.

Im expecting a softcap to come into play once more things are balanced out and features are put into the game.

Except in Eve, it doesn't matter if you have all the skills capped because only some many will actually affect you at any given time. If I go out in a battleship loaded with missles, none of my frigate and gunnery skills do anything for me. In darkfall I can go out with every sort of weapon and switch them on the fly. You can't do that in Eve. Not without moving away from fights.

[ocoma]

IMO a hard cap would be better for a few reasons.

First if you want to bring macro's into the equation, a soft cap is more beneficial to the macroer. Unless the skill decay is severe, and I'm talking minutes, a macroer can incorporate multiple skills into a single macro. They would be able to train up new skills while still maintaining their current skills to reach well beyond the cap. If it is possible to do it, people will find a way to do so.

Secondly a hard cap would mean an entirely balanced playing field amoungst players. You get your 500 points or whatever and thats that.

Then there is the "pissed off factor". With skill decay I personally would be pissed if my running or swimming leveled up and took me over the cap without my knowing it and than I lost a point from one of my GM'd skills because of it. You may not immediately lose a point to decay once over the cap, but I could easily go a day or two in game and not make a tool cause I was doing other things like traveling across the map for a trade deal or something. To get from 99 to 100 in toolcraft was over 2000 craft attempts(I don't have the exact number I stopped tracking at 2k). There are any number of reasons a person may be online and not actively working on their skills. Since things like swimming, running, and combat skills from defending oneself from animals will constantly be leveling without the player actively wanting them to count toward their soft cap, people could very easily lose points from their high leveled and hard earned skills cause of things they can't control. Thats very likely to piss people off.

[banden]

Well I think that macroing can be limited with hunger, thirst, comfort aswell as other relavent pararmeters to a much higher degree.

I like to terraform and ihve spent hours and hours building towers and fortifications and thats really cool, but along the way I also got a lot of xp which is great. I got lvl ups and spent the points on things that I would need eventually. The big problem that I have though, is that It did not effect the process that my guy was ready to fall over from thirst and hunger through it all. The effects of the these sliders should be increased, lets say that if just one slider is under 50%, xp gain is cut in half. If any one of the sliders reach 0 you wont gain any xp and you wont get any skillups whatsoever. Its harsh, but it means that alot of things become very important to lvling and it makes macroing a lot more difficult.

So lets say you want your guy to be able to macro efficiently, so you put him next to a bin with food and in a bit of water so he has thirst and hunger covered, but then his clouthes are wet(i realize that drinking water making your clouthes wet is a little comical but bear with me, this is just an example), wet and cold clouthes are a discomfort so standing there too long will mean you gain less xp and eventually none. So you have to go sit at a fire to dry off, but you cant craft sitting there. So you go back to crafting and a little late come back to sit at the fire, but it has died out and needs to be relid. This is just an example, it could also be something else, lets say decay of food items was much more severe and realistic, unprocessed foods decay really fast and processed food decay not quite so fast. The fact of the matter is that if you make this process a lot more realistic, it will discourage macroing per default, because noone in real life is just able to go about their day, with their brain turned off. The more things you make that requires the player to think the less viable it will be to use macros.

I see alot of talk about Eve, I played it myself and loved its skillsystem. The really great thing about it is that there is no hardcap, but the more skillpoints you invest the less you will get for them. It relies on specialization and it is entirely possible to hit a hard cap where all your skills are maxed in 1 specific specialization. This allows newer players to catch up to the older, because you can only fly 1 ship. Older players will have specialized in flying other ships and thus get more flexibility in which roles they can fill. The problem i see with Xsyon is that newer players will have a very hard time at catching up especially in combat when someone have played the game for years, if there is no hardcap or atleast some diminishing returns. You would need a system that supports the same kind of roles. Tackling, DPS, healing, etc. I dont think this is really viable in Xsyon.

[Niburu]

If he game would offer a character specialization system were you are only allowed to use some skills at one time and you could see a progression while using these skills than you would see less people macroing. But as it is now it is like darkfall were you do from everything a little bit, a little bit crafting here a little bit combat there and gathering there. Darkfall will change that with next expansion and already introduced faster skillgain and offline skilling. i hope xsyon will go the same way because iam tiered of games were you get 0.1 every hour.

Edit: A game should keep you playing because you want to use your skills to reach your personal goal that you set.( trading, combat, exploring whatever) and not force you to click 10000000000000 times and watch a progression bar. Specially in a Full Loot game you can add a daily grind with gear and weapons

[Plague]

Macroing does provide advantage since now we know that HP is raised with each level. Bleh. Crafting is not the problem but fishing and terraforming are for example as those can be macroed with ease and you don't require any resources gathered prior to action.

I would also like to see macros not get any advantage at all ever.

[Larsa]

Macroing does provide advantage since now we know that HP is raised with each level. Bleh. Crafting is not the problem but fishing and terraforming are for example as those can be macroed with ease and you don't require any resources gathered prior to action.Correct. I also don't understand why people in this thread focus so much on crafting. Terraforming, running, jumping, swimming, fishing, PvP combat, etc. are all as prone to macroing as crafting is.


I would also like to see macros not get any advantage at all ever.That seems to be impossible in a UO-style skill based game. You have to either remove the progression part of the game or you have to remove the UO-style skill gain.

Personally I like the Ryzom style: You get points to spend on skills by defeating mobs in PvE. Only by PvE. Into which skill you put the points is up to the player. The system has the disadvantage that it doesn't allow for a pure crafter character but has the advantage that it's an un-macroable skill system.

[Jadzia]

@Larsa: it would be pretty boring to force a tailor to kill mobs to level up tailoring imo. A crafter may be totally uninterested in PvE combat.

What if they removed the levels ? And only learnt recipes and skill books would count ? We would only be able to learn new recipes by reading a recipe book, and would learn new abilities by reading a skill book. Or it doesn't even have to be a book, only an activity. Like to learn the 'big grey bear' skill you have to find and kill a grizzly. Repeating the activity wouldn't help at all. That would eliminate the grind and the macroing too. Basic recipe and skill books or activities would be easy to find, the better ones would be harder to get. To learn a very good combat skill we should be asked to kill a very strong mob. These kills would only count if the player killed the mob on his own to avoid guilds to force level their new members.

HP should be based on the armor. That would fuel the economy as well.
Running and swimming would be the same too....it wouldn't level up by using it, only when completing a training field or task.

[MrDDT]

Correct. I also don't understand why people in this thread focus so much on crafting. Terraforming, running, jumping, swimming, fishing, PvP combat, etc. are all as prone to macroing as crafting is.

Every skill in this game is prone to it, but some less than others.
The ones most prone are ones like you said that dont require you to do anything.

Hunting skill is one of the skills I can say would be least prone to macroing. It requires so much stuff (currently hunting cant level). More ideas like hunting into the game will help stop macroing.
But really to stop macroing IMO is just promote active play. If you reward players for playing much more than someone can get macroing, no one will care if someone is macroing. I know I wouldnt care if I got 10x faster gains while active than macroing. People could macro for all I care at that point. Problem is right now many skills its better to macro. I mean look at making bricks. OMG I would die in real life if I did that skill.




That seems to be impossible in a UO-style skill based game. You have to either remove the progression part of the game or you have to remove the UO-style skill gain.

No, see above, also Jadzia has an idea where you have to do missions sometimes to keep increasing your skills.




Personally I like the Ryzom style: You get points to spend on skills by defeating mobs in PvE. Only by PvE. Into which skill you put the points is up to the player. The system has the disadvantage that it doesn't allow for a pure crafter character but has the advantage that it's an un-macroable skill system.

Ya, this isnt a great option. It might be an option if you put it in, but dont force people to do it. Some people dont want to do PVE at all. It would be as bad as forcing people to do PVP to get skills as a crafter or a PVEer.




@Larsa: it would be pretty boring to force a tailor to kill mobs to level up tailoring imo. A crafter may be totally uninterested in PvE combat.

What if they removed the levels ? And only learnt recipes and skill books would count ? We would only be able to learn new recipes by reading a recipe book, and would learn new abilities by reading a skill book. Or it doesn't even have to be a book, only an activity. Like to learn the 'big grey bear' skill you have to find and kill a grizzly. Repeating the activity wouldn't help at all. That would eliminate the grind and the macroing too. Basic recipe and skill books or activities would be easy to find, the better ones would be harder to get. To learn a very good combat skill we should be asked to kill a very strong mob. These kills would only count if the player killed the mob on his own to avoid guilds to force level their new members.

HP should be based on the armor. That would fuel the economy as well.
Running and swimming would be the same too....it wouldn't level up by using it, only when completing a training field or task.

I think this is a great idea, but I dont want to see leveling up only through these "missions" or "quests" if its here and there sure. But I dont want to do missions all the time to level my skills up either.
I think there should be a break point, where you need to do a quest to keep going. Maybe like once every 10 or 25 points.
They dont even have to be hard missions either.

[mrcalhou]

If they just make the actions more interactive instead of just click and wait then that would go a long ways towards decreasing macro use.

They could also make the game more item-stat focused and less character-stat focused. Grant it, this wouldn't work if items only ever increase in stats; however, it could just easily be designed so that equipment has pros and cons so that while it might be good at doing one thing, it hinders you at doing something else. This would also greatly increase player choice, by letting players figure out what works best for them.

[ColonelTEE3]

I think there should be a break point, where you need to do a quest to keep going. Maybe like once every 10 or 25 points.
They dont even have to be hard missions either.

This sounds like LOTRO crafting. That wasn't much of a grind at all. You were put in a "tier" of crafting, made some pieces of armor until you got to the next "tier", but you had to do a crafting related quest in order to make items at that tier.