Do you really want another DF or MO?

[Mactavendish]

I mean really?

It does NOT seem like the devs want that, but the vocal minority here on the forums seem to believe that its the only way that Xsyon will survive... to make it a basic clone of other games...

I am VERY happy Xsyon is not like those games.. and that as it grows it will become much better then any of those other games.

WE can make quests .. PFFT on having NPC hand them out .. been there done that ... left
WE can develop and build our own safe zones. If after Prelude they are gone it only adds to excitement.
We can develop the dynamics and politics when resources and rares are much less common... why would I want to let npc, or even the devs determine that, when they will allow US to do it?
We don't have to have ongoing war to have reasons to play, build, craft, or interact... The devs are trying to make a game where WE can determine how we interact or have conflict.

Do you REALLY want this to be another clone of what is already out there and losing players???

Or are you willing to have patience to help make this game what the developer wants it to be?

Maybe the better question you should ask, do YOU want what they are making? IF not, if what you really want is Darkfall or Mortal online, then why are you not playing those?

[MrDDT]

I mean really?

It does NOT seem like the devs want that, but the vocal minority here on the forums seem to believe that its the only way that Xsyon will survive... to make it a basic clone of other games...

I am VERY happy Xsyon is not like those games.. and that as it grows it will become much better then any of those other games.

WE can make quests .. PFFT on having NPC hand them out .. been there done that ... left
WE can develop and build our own safe zones. If after Prelude they are gone it only adds to excitement.
We can develop the dynamics and politics when resources and rares are much less common... why would I want to let npc, or even the devs determine that, when they will allow US to do it?
We don't have to have ongoing war to have reasons to play, build, craft, or interact... The devs are trying to make a game where WE can determine how we interact or have conflict.

Do you REALLY want this to be another clone of what is already out there and losing players???

Or are you willing to have patience to help make this game what the developer wants it to be?

Maybe the better question you should ask, do YOU want what they are making? IF not, if what you really want is Darkfall or Mortal online, then why are you not playing those?



Sorry how is it a clone of MO or DF? Just because something has difficulty vs reward doesnt mean its a clone of DF or MO. World building in MO and DF are nothing like Xsyon.
Also DF is growing not losing players. But why dont you use something like EVE online? Whats wrong with that? It has a great system and has tons of people playing it.

Also there are tons of threads about this already, way dont you jump in those with your thoughts and ideas?


You ask a detailed question. Here is the answer. Do I want what they are making? I dont know, because that idea keeps changing. When I first started it was open PVP FFA 100% after Prelude, now its, we are going to allow some tribes to be contested if they choose. That's a pretty huge change.

It seems also like he has some other plans on how to do this, with the rare resources and contested totems, so Im looking to see how that progresses. I made a thread about this already.
Lots of action on it and a lot of people answer your question here.
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7025-Xsyon-Moving-to-Carebear.

[Dubanka]

you're really politicking for the carebear nation.

What do the devs want? Well, hmm, lets see, I think there were some items posted recently that kinda spell it out:


Who is happy with the direction Xsyon is going with being safe totems
everywhere, and no fighting for any resources?
As I've stated a few times recently, we're working towards expansion totems that will claim resources to be fought over. The agriculture system is intended to provide these resources, but as being discussed in another thread, I can adjust the distribution and availability of scavenged, and other current resources to provide contestable resources.



Jordi, speak up please. Make it clear what you want and what you will do.
Don't leave it to the players, it doesn't work. Let us know finally, and let us
know clearly.
I've stated it before, I want a balanced world. These arguments tend to polarize players as if the only choices are either a carebear's or griefer's paradise with nothing in between. What is my vision, carebear PvE or full or griefer PvP? Neither, I want a balanced world that will appeal to both sides. I think this can be achieved step by step and it needs to happen over time (hence the Prelude). If I could set in stone how to achieve the right balance, I would, but if it was that easy it'd be done already by a larger developer and none of you would be here in the first place!

My vision has never changed. What is required to bring about the vision is what changes because if things don't work out as intended, they must be rethought and reworked. That's how the game evolves.

The first step is the combat revisions. If combat is more fun and tactical, it should appeal to more players. The next step is finishing architecture so that towns can be protected and we can have contested expansion totems. From the other discussion I see that adding more meaningful rare resources and redistribution of these resources will go further than adding agriculture to provide a reason for contested expansions. All of this is being worked on right now.

The other thread ( http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthrea...or-the-players) started off providing good feedback that is easy for me to sort through and get some ideas of what the community needs. If I can get more civil feedback like that, without veering into these carebear vs pvp debates, I highly appreciate it.

We do also plan to send out email polls, but the combat and architecture revisions come first right now.
Of course this caused an outcry of WTF are you talking about? Could you be any less vague? Specifics!

And then we got:


Originally Posted by Larsa
With all my respect, Xsyon. A balanced world, a good goal - and a goal difficult to achieve.
I know it's difficult, but it can be done! If I wanted easy I'd be working for a big company right now and thinking of what fun things I can do this weekend.

I'm skimmed through the discussion and I don't see the sides as wanting too different of a game. It's in the details. The main questions seems to be about balance and risk and rewards.

For me, balance means enough choices so that both PvPers and non PvPers can enjoy the game, but without forcing players to play a certain way.

It's clear there are some players that would like to force PvP only on the non PvP crowd. That doesn't make for a viable game.

For those that want to fight each other, as I've stated before, we will allow tribes to set themselves as warring tribes as soon as we can, and this will have inherent risks and rewards for those who participate.

PvP in itself already comes with its rewards (you get to loot things rather than make, pay or trade for them). Yes, I realize players can lock packs to prevent looting right now. This will change. Not looting in water is a bug and will be fixed. There will also be death penalties (both PvP and PvE).

The redistribution of resources that I'm working on should automatically add rewards for risk. Tribal land won't yield the resources that open and expansion land does and a tribe won't be able to claim land near all valuable resources as they will be spread out. Travel will be necessary and travel through open lands is inherently risky.

I need to get back to work, but I have gleaned some good feedback from this discussion and I think a redistribution of resources and crafting improvements will go a long way. There are many things that clearly both sides of this discussion seek so we'll focus on those first.

So 'the Man' says he wants a balanced game.

Most of the back and forth in the other forum is about the balance between the two...how do you balance the pvp goals with the pve goals and make them equally rewarding and not create a dominant 'best' way to play. I will say there are some extreme differences in opinion as to what that entails :p But at the end of the day, it's our issue to discuss, and Jordi's to implement...and then its up to the players to decide if they like it. So, our discussion over there is just that, a discussion where both sides are being adamant and vocal in their opinions...hopefully some decent ideas come out of it.

So, now here you come. Declaring that the current vision of a balanced world brings it on par with MO/DF. So while we're debating what balance is, you're declaring that should be no balance, and the game should focus strictly on the pve side of hte equation...hmm, i don't think your ideas represent the devs vision.

So, to turn things around, if you want a pve only game why not play mine craft, atitd, or any ofthe other countless pve only games?

It is obvious that the devs wants a game seamlessly integrates the pve and pvp goals and objectives...This is a horribly difficult task, and as the product is still basically a mid-alpha level game, the jury hasn't even recessed to decide if they've achieved it.

So why again are you coming in here declaring that any pvp focus makes it a mo/df clone?

[VeryWiiTee]

Because those were the two games he knew had a FPS orientated aiming and twitch gameplay?..
I got no idea..

And no it isn't mid-alpha stage. it isn't beta. We passed that a loong time ago.

It is Prelude stage. Adding to the already content stage, making the game more advanced.
- Doing what most firms do in an MMO.. Fix bugs, add more stuff etc.

[wolfgar]

Because those were the two games he knew had a FPS orientated aiming and twitch gameplay?..
I got no idea..

And no it isn't mid-alpha stage. it isn't beta. We passed that a loong time ago.

It is Prelude stage. Adding to the already content stage, making the game more advanced.
- Doing what most firms do in an MMO.. Fix bugs, add more stuff etc.

I think you should really check out the definitions of alpha and beta. This game is NOT even close to being in beta..
"Beta is the software development phase following alpha (beta is the second letter of the ancient Greek alphabet, used as the number 2. It is not nowadays usual to speak of a later gamma test). It generally begins when the software is feature complete. "

"FEATURE COMPLETE" ... do you really think all the game features are in yet? .. If so what about cooking? taming? etc.. etc. lots of things are not present yet in the game.. Hence there is no way the game can be considered "In beta" The game is in a Alpha state and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Beta is for final testing of bugs before official "Release"

Check this out.. Its the life-cycle of software development.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta

"As the Internet has allowed for rapid and inexpensive distribution of software, companies have begun to take a more loose approach to use of the word "beta".[4] Netscape Communications was infamous for releasing alpha level versions of its Netscape web browser to the public and calling them "beta" releases"

Just because a company says its "Beta" etc doesn't mean it actually is.. More often then not companies are forced to put out their games due to monetary issues. They call their products "beta" etc to draw people in..

etc etc

As for the OP.. While i am not a rabid supporter of PVP.. I do like to do it once in a while.. You make a lot of good points.. And i like the Dev's responces, You can't have a pure pvp sandbox and survive in the game market. Lets face facts , Only a very few people ever pvp full time. you just can not do it. Mainly due to being killed all the time. If you don't have some sort of "safe zone" what winds up happening is nothing gets done except one big gank fest and people wind up quitting.

Sure the gank fest would be fun.. As long as your skills are high and you have lots of friends.. If your a new player you would be screwed.. And that's basicaly what some people want.. Sense their skills are already up what do they care if some new player can't do anything?? Its the entire reason behind some peoples rabid pro pvp stances here.. They want a advantage over new players and do not want anyone to be able to challenge them.. (its a human trait to want to get some sort of advantage).

etc etc

[Vadio]

i want new entropia universe open pvp / full loot :) ( i quit long time ago , but i keep reading updates )

[Mactavendish]

You get it don't you Wolf. :D

ddt and dub seem to need new batteries in their hearing aids...

I have not said ANYWHERE I wanted pvp gone or to not be a part of this game.

I always say ( pay attention guys ) PvP make for more excitement.

I am just extremely tired of seeing the same 2-3 people rant on and on about what they think will fix this game, and when folks don't agree with them they twist the op's words to appear that they support their view.

ddt and Dub do NOT speak for all the players.. maybe for a small and dwindling % of players... maybe

I will say it very plainly for those with inflated ego's...

PvP is and should be a part of this game.

PvE players are also supposed to be a part of this game.

I agree with Jordi's stated vision for this game and will support his efforts.

I am not a fanboi nor am I blind to things that are broken or need fixing, like the invisible walls I run into crossing the middle of zones .. Nor am I going to waste play time arguing with fools.

I am succeeding quite well in this game and continue to enjoy playing.

I do not personally want a rehash of the same tired game mechanics and do not believe what 2-3 want will make this game better. Disagree all you want, because it wont matter ... My style of player will still be here long after those whining the most are gone.

[MrDDT]

You get it don't you Wolf. :D

ddt and dub seem to need new batteries in their hearing aids...

I have not said ANYWHERE I wanted pvp gone or to not be a part of this game.

I always say ( pay attention guys ) PvP make for more excitement.

I am just extremely tired of seeing the same 2-3 people rant on and on about what they think will fix this game, and when folks don't agree with them they twist the op's words to appear that they support their view.

ddt and Dub do NOT speak for all the players.. maybe for a small and dwindling % of players... maybe

I will say it very plainly for those with inflated ego's...

PvP is and should be a part of this game.

PvE players are also supposed to be a part of this game.

I agree with Jordi's stated vision for this game and will support his efforts.

I am not a fanboi nor am I blind to things that are broken or need fixing, like the invisible walls I run into crossing the middle of zones .. Nor am I going to waste play time arguing with fools.

I am succeeding quite well in this game and continue to enjoy playing.

I do not personally want a rehash of the same tired game mechanics and do not believe what 2-3 want will make this game better. Disagree all you want, because it wont matter ... My style of player will still be here long after those whining the most are gone.



I dont know what part I "dont" get but, I speak my mind, I give my opinion and I give the data.
I try not to speak for everyone, but sometimes it happens. Sometimes people ask me to post something because I can express my and their ideas.
Do I want the game to be made I want? Of course. I also expect that I wont get it 100% how I want. I express my views of how I want, and I debate them into why I would like them. If you dont want something the way I want it express and explain why you dont want them. Use data and facts to support why.

So far what you have posted here is really just you upset because someone else is posting their ideas and you dont like their ideas, but have yet to express a better way or why you dont like them.

I agreed with Jordis vision. However that vision has changed. Im expressing why or why not I agree or disagree with those changes.

I dont know who you are calling a fool, but most people posting Ive seen are trying to weigh in on the topics that matter.


I believe that 2 - 3 want will make this game better, considering there is only 3 or 4 devs I would think it would be understandable that few can help a lot.

Your style of player have quit also, just as others have quit. Im not saying only your style of player have quit just saying many have quit.

This game has issues and its not just a PVE issue and its not just a PVP issue.
Heck from this topic I dont even know what you want.

Ive been here longer than you, and I will be here longer than you, fighting the fight to keep the game alive and giving my opinion on how I think it should be done. Good thing I love about the devs is they listen to well thought out posts and do adapt.

[Dubanka]

You get it don't you Wolf. :D

ddt and dub seem to need new batteries in their hearing aids...

I have not said ANYWHERE I wanted pvp gone or to not be a part of this game.

I always say ( pay attention guys ) PvP make for more excitement.

I am just extremely tired of seeing the same 2-3 people rant on and on about what they think will fix this game, and when folks don't agree with them they twist the op's words to appear that they support their view.

ddt and Dub do NOT speak for all the players.. maybe for a small and dwindling % of players... maybe

I will say it very plainly for those with inflated ego's...

PvP is and should be a part of this game.

PvE players are also supposed to be a part of this game.

I agree with Jordi's stated vision for this game and will support his efforts.

I am not a fanboi nor am I blind to things that are broken or need fixing, like the invisible walls I run into crossing the middle of zones .. Nor am I going to waste play time arguing with fools.

I am succeeding quite well in this game and continue to enjoy playing.

I do not personally want a rehash of the same tired game mechanics and do not believe what 2-3 want will make this game better. Disagree all you want, because it wont matter ... My style of player will still be here long after those whining the most are gone.

you realize that you're being a total hypocrite?
You call out ddt and i for speaking our minds, and giving our opinions on various things.
Yet, I could say the same things about the 'opposition'. I find myself having the same arguments with the same people over the same subjects.

Both pro and anti pvp players have quit en masse over the last couple months...And at this point they probably quit for the same reason...it's an unfinished product that they are unwilling to pay for. So you're statement presumes that 'your' position is stronger than 'ours' because 'our' contingent has diminished to a greater degree than yours, well I don't believe that's reality.

So, yes, we've been hhearing the panicked call of the carebear now for quite some time - OMG DO YOU WANT THEM TO MAKE ANOTHER DF/MO OMG GO PLAY IT THEN ALREADY LEAVE US ALONG LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE US TO OUR MUD HUTS AND SKIRT WEAVING AHHHHHHHH- and it's always the same thing. PvP players are rabid psychos only interested in how many people they can kill. That we have consistently tried to explain that this isn't true, present examples demonstrate, and generally tried (without a lot of success) to illustrate how we do want a balanced game makes no difference.


We get it. You don't like how we play. You'd prefer we're not around. You believe the game should be a 180 from where we want.

Thats great. Opinions are outstanding at this point...but yours is no more valid or relevant than anyone elses.

have a nice day.

[orious13]

It's not DF vs MO vs Xsyon...

It's simply... games that give freedom and meaning that work vs games that give freedom and meaning that don't. I'm talking about design decisions for the future, not current. I think Xsyon will work better than DF or MO do once Xsyon has been out as long as they have been currently (talking about from development and onward...DF was in development for a very very long time).

[Mactavendish]

Ok, then our opinions don't match... many on these very forums don't mix with or like your opinions, nor do I. But you know what? I don't have to.

You are right about one thing... alternative and constructive comment will be listened to if they match the developers current direction.

One reason I have not tired very much to counter your comments ddt is you will just spin it to try and support your ideas.. and quite frankly this is a game and not important enough for me to spend that much time figuring out some way to counter you. For you the Battle is EVERYTHING... I could not care less, I don't have 24 hours a day to spend on a game. I live in the Real World, not in this game like you seem to.

We are opposites, funny thing Jordi wants BOTH of us to be able to play here. I guess I could always just ignore you huh.

[Dubanka]

Ok, then our opinions don't match... many on these very forums don't mix with or like your opinions, nor do I. But you know what? I don't have to.

You are right about one thing... alternative and constructive comment will be listened to if they match the developers current direction.

One reason I have not tired very much to counter your comments ddt is you will just spin it to try and support your ideas.. and quite frankly this is a game and not important enough for me to spend that much time figuring out some way to counter you. For you the Battle is EVERYTHING... I could not care less, I don't have 24 hours a day to spend on a game. I live in the Real World, not in this game like you seem to.

We are opposites, funny thing Jordi wants BOTH of us to be able to play here. I guess I could always just ignore you huh.

it's all right.
don't cry.
it is just a game...and yes, presently, the forum game is more entertaining than the game game.

[Mactavendish]

Actually dub I do not want it 180 degrees from where its at. You are so bent on making your point you did not see me say " PvP is and should be a part of this game "

I could care less about your play style, I just don't prefer it is all.

We will see how it turns out. new changes will be put in and if they give an advantage to you then you will like them .. in they are actually balanced towards BOTH sides you won't

heh and I will still be playing my way and making no noise since the game works for me.

*shrugs* Meh

heh I'm not crying at all.. you two are just very boring

[MrDDT]

Actually dub I do not want it 180 degrees from where its at. You are so bent on making your point you did not see me say " PvP is and should be a part of this game "

I could care less about your play style, I just don't prefer it is all.

We will see how it turns out. new changes will be put in and if they give an advantage to you then you will like them .. in they are actually balanced towards BOTH sides you won't

heh and I will still be playing my way and making no noise since the game works for me.

*shrugs* Meh

heh I'm not crying at all.. you two are just very boring

Bold is where the problem starts right there.
You dont care. You believe you should have it 100% your way. While people like me DO care about carebears opinions. I believe they are part of the game too, I think of ideas and try to fit BOTH sides into the solution instead of just saying "I want I want I want".

I dont know why you say I wont like a balance to both sides. You are kind of going a bit off on what you are saying. Where do you get that Dub or I dont want PVE'ers to be happy or have anything to play?

If the game works for you why were you crying when you died the other day?

[wolfgar]

Kinda funny how my post was all but ignored .. except by mac.

Oh and i do "Get it " mac.. But don't think im a carebear.. Not at all. I just don't subscribe to the all out anarchy that some here do..

I like the way wurm online does the "safe zone" deal.. you pay for guards for your area.. given enough people the guards are not that hard to kill off. (or a high lvl player) but overall it provides a relatively secure place against raids.. Granted wurm has the mechanics in place so that a player who spends the time and effort can make it really hard for any raider to attack.. But thats the way it should be.

I would really like to see the dev's take some idea's from Wurm..

Overall i subscribe to the motto = Choice is king. And limiting a players choices is a bad thing. (Then again.. you can't please everyone in this world no matter what you do.. And trying to please everyone only makes a bad situation worse).

[fatboy21007]

i say let he pvpers have the game their way. Then when it dies, devs will know that the carebears make games thrives, pvpers die off due to players getting bored. pve pays the bills. and if u all say im full of crap WOW's 11 mill subs will slap ya in the face or say even rifts,eve and several other games that thrive off of pve content. But hey u want a full pvp griefering paradise by all means do it. but when it fails, blame those who wanted it and yourself. Carebears stick around and keep bills going. been proven in all games atm. Casual pvp is wat the world wants, and a very very small number care about the griefing world and they dont even stick around long in any game. they usually troll the fourms to force a game their way n when it happens they still dont return. ive played over 100 mmo's i seen what works and what doesn. Someday all of you here will realize that and sum will refuse to accept it and push their own ideas when in the end they are wrong also. Jordi the plans u had with launch, go with those and for the love of god ignore the community. We will kill this game. we kill all games.

[Mactavendish]

Heya Fatboy :) - Gotta say that yep crush players hate to hear it but pve does pay the bills.

Wolfgar, I am not anywhere near the carebear they think I am. I too look forward to the time where my efforts and time has been used to make it really hard for a raider to affect me. To me, that is exactly where this game needs to go.. it's where I thought it was going.. still hope it does. :)

Jordi, please continue on with your plan. stick to your guns, but allow the dynamic of the playerbase to change if it needs to, and advertise to those that will keep you funded, not to the very ones that want you to drop YOUR idea for theirs.

Added after 10 minutes:

ill, I can't save a game any better than you can.

It is up to the developers.

Here is the difference between me and you. I will keep playing and paying to support what i think will be great later... You on the other hand, stop playing because the mean developers didn't do it your way, then instead of just moving on, you and others spend your days trying to waylay and battle those on the forums, trying to convince all how dumb they makes of the game are and belittle anyone that has an opposing viewpoint.

At least I'm not flailing at the wind. I have been collecting resources in anticipation of what Jordi does next :) I can't wait

[Salvadore]

One reason I have not tired very much to counter your comments ddt is you will just spin it to try and support your ideas..

Uhm, its called a DEBATE...so that's what needs to happen! You coming here, making a huge post about stuff, then not be willing to SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT really gets translated as you simply crying.

If you cannot create a supportive argument for the things you are suggesting...then why even bother suggesting anything? Dubs is one of the best "debaters" available to these forums and DDT isnt far behind. They dont simply spin an argument for their own benefit...they do so because they can PROVE the other side wrong.

This whole thread simply makes you look like another whiner poster in another whiner thread without contributing anything constructive or positive. Way to help out imo.

*First post by me here in a loooong while!

Added after 8 minutes:


i say let he pvpers have the game their way. Then when it dies, devs will know that the carebears make games thrives, pvpers die off due to players getting bored. pve pays the bills. and if u all say im full of crap WOW's 11 mill subs will slap ya in the face or say even rifts,eve and several other games that thrive off of pve content. But hey u want a full pvp griefering paradise by all means do it. but when it fails, blame those who wanted it and yourself. Carebears stick around and keep bills going. been proven in all games atm. Casual pvp is wat the world wants, and a very very small number care about the griefing world and they dont even stick around long in any game. they usually troll the fourms to force a game their way n when it happens they still dont return. ive played over 100 mmo's i seen what works and what doesn. Someday all of you here will realize that and sum will refuse to accept it and push their own ideas when in the end they are wrong also. Jordi the plans u had with launch, go with those and for the love of god ignore the community. We will kill this game. we kill all games.

I wish they would give about 20 of the hardcore playerbase an administrative/testing ability on another mirrored server as the current server. Then give them full reign of how the mechanics will be implemented and done. I PROMISE you, the game we created would fill a niche and be massively successful. Why? Because there is NOTHING like that out there currently.

There are droves of pve-centric games available on the market. Why would anyone choose this in a massively flooded pve market? Apparently, not that many judging by a few minutes ago when I logged out...Carebear world is fail, log in and see. No reason to debate that, simply login to do see for yourself.

THIS community has already "killed" this game. THIS community also has about a 5:1 ratio of carebear/pvper from what I can tell. That judgment is from everything ive seen in game, from forums to in game people. Lack of working content and repetitive boring-ness is to blame, not the pvper that is simply trying to help it.

[MrDDT]

THIS community has already "killed" this game. THIS community also has about a 5:1 ratio of carebear/pvper from what I can tell. That judgment is from everything ive seen in game, from forums to in game people. Lack of working content and repetitive boring-ness is to blame, not the pvper that is simply trying to help it.

I dont think the community killed the game. I think the game is moving slowly for a few reasons.
Jordi already said he had issues with some of the programers (He let them go) which he is still dealing with those issues today. The game is in a bad state right now, Jordi knows it, we know it, the devs know it, and most people looking at the game know it.

Once the major issues are fixed and added, it doesnt matter if its a PVP game or a PVE game, these core issues must be working and fixed first.

Can a PVP game work? Yes, can a PVE game work? Yes.

When I post on the forums Im giving the opinion of what I would want and what I think will work best using my ideas and thoughts of how I would want something.




Wolfgar, the game being in alpha, beta, gamma or release, or gold or whatever doesnt matter, does it? It will only matter if you are looking to get out of paying for the game. I dont care about paying 15 or 30 or 45$ a month to a game I believe is making progress and will be fun later to play.

But if I feel the game is moving away from the core ideas it started with (like removing all pvp from the game) then I will make my voice heard, and if that doesnt help. I will remove my subs. I will also try to convince others to make their voice heard that agree with me, and if all of our voices are not heard, I believe they will do the same.

Im still here, paying for my accounts, I will be doing this for a long time. Sure Jordi has moved the game a little more to carebear, but I still believe in his hope and dreams. I believe also Jordi's vision of the game is close enough to mine that I will keep posting my ideas and opinions to try to get him to see another point of view.

If you only have PVPers or Carebears giving ideas or no one, then you only get part of the story. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Some people do not know whats best for them or what they really want. They say they want one thing but they really want another.
Sometimes they think they want something but really they dont. It would be like giving a child all the candy they can eat. Sure they might love the taste of it, but later they will see the wisdom of why parents dont do that, when they get a tummy ache, or their teeth rot out, or get diabetes because of it. Yes these are extreme reasons, but most of the time people dont have the foresight to think a few steps ahead of what will happen if their idea is put into place, or what it takes to put in place that idea, or how it will effect other things.
Having a lot of experience in MMO's I believe I have some good ideas, and I believe my opinions are pretty thought out.

Alpha, Beta, Release, Gamma whatever doesnt even really come into place for me those words are relative.

[Hanover]

it's all right.
don't cry.
it is just a game...and yes, presently, the forum game is more entertaining than the game game.

The AI needs work, not challenging enough.

[Salvadore]

I dont think the community killed the game.

They listened to the plethora of carebears who stated that they want safezones, thousands of things to craft, pretty trees, reflective water, and various other things to enrich their glorified gather/craft pixel hording experience.

They shunned those that asked for the combat, siege warfare, and point to all the crafting, pretty water, land, and everything else. This is obvious when the game being (how old exactly?) after release with NO REAL COMBAT MECHANICS WHATSOEVER. They shouldn't have put so much time and effort into all the pretty looking useless outfits to craft and at least SOME time on the combat that would make all those pretty little craftable objects worth it.

I see this whole thing as another sad representation of a phenomenal idea that fears letting go of the pve anchor people aka squeeky-wheeled carebear militants that snuffs out the real potential of it ALL.

[MrDDT]

Salvadore, combat is a problem for both carebears and PVPers.

So, maybe they should have put less time into allowing FFA pvp outside of safe areas, and put it into combat for animals. You can say this about a ton of stuff.

I dont blame carebears for the state of the game. I think there are many more issues at work here.

[Salvadore]

Salvadore, combat is a problem for both carebears and PVPers.

So, maybe they should have put less time into allowing FFA pvp outside of safe areas, and put it into combat for animals. You can say this about a ton of stuff.

I dont blame carebears for the state of the game. I think there are many more issues at work here.

Yeah I totally agree with ya. I could "hindsight" all day long but it will still obviously be at the same result.

However, I have YET to see a dev group listen emphatically and predominantly to the pvp-centric crowd. When they speak, they are usually drown out...much like here.

Someday, someone will get it right!!!

[Book]

Yeah I totally agree with ya. I could "hindsight" all day long but it will still obviously be at the same result.

However, I have YET to see a dev group listen emphatically and predominantly to the pvp-centric crowd. When they speak, they are usually drown out...much like here.

Someday, someone will get it right!!!

It's funny how much personal perspective can color what we see. It's good to hear your complaints Salvadore because while I really do think your own perspective is skewed, it reminds me that mine is as well.

I see things pretty completely opposite of you! lol. I often feel like the less-warlike voices are often drowned out in these forums by the more warsome folks. If I disagree, I'll eventually be told I'm crying or ridiculed in some way. My manhood will be attacked by saying I just want to make skirts. I'll be considered more primitive, less advanced, by saying I'm making mudhuts... etc.

On the other hand, I've been known to accuse certain people of having heavy browridges or rather unfortunate psychological problems. The primary difference, of course, being that I'm actually right... *cough*

Go figure. It's almost like rather than seeing what we want to see, we're seeing what scares us most about where the game could be headed. Wonder why that is, but since I'm apparently doing it too, it's kinda hard to look at it objectively enough to come up with a hypothesis.

@dub, they're not skirts ffs man, they're kilts!

[MrDDT]

It's funny how much personal perspective can color what we see. It's good to hear your complaints Salvadore because while I really do think your own perspective is skewed, it reminds me that mine is as well.

I see things pretty completely opposite of you! lol. I often feel like the less-warlike voices are often drowned out in these forums by the more warsome folks. If I disagree, I'll eventually be told I'm crying or ridiculed in some way. My manhood will be attacked by saying I just want to make skirts. I'll be considered more primitive, less advanced, by saying I'm making mudhuts... etc.

On the other hand, I've been known to accuse certain people of having heavy browridges or rather unfortunate psychological problems. The primary difference, of course, being that I'm actually right... *cough*

Go figure. It's almost like rather than seeing what we want to see, we're seeing what scares us most about where the game could be headed. Wonder why that is, but since I'm apparently doing it too, it's kinda hard to look at it objectively enough to come up with a hypothesis.

@dub, they're not skirts ffs man, they're kilts!

I think everyone does it, which is why its up to the devs to sort through it, and the mods to keep it focused on topic, instead of personal attacks about who likes to wear a dress and if they are a kilt or not. ;)

I do try to keep a level head and I do try to see both sides of the coin. But no matter what you do, you will always be bias. Its just life. I look at it from the point of view that if the carebears wore gone the game would suffer for it, same token is that if the PVPers are gone, the game would suffer. Key is to try to find that middle ground. I think Jordi wants to do it also.

[Dubanka]

@dub, they're not skirts ffs man, they're kilts!

it's knitting all the same :p

and btw, i will be the first to admit that i want a game that is driven by conflict.
now that conflict can be driven by many different factors...economic, resources, politics, personalities...but the games that I like to play are competitions. I've said it many times, i want reasons for doing things...and typically that involves gettiing there firstest with the bestest or the mostest. I don't see the pve element supporting this, because typically, in my experience, pve only works really well in a theme park environment where you have elements driving a story line.
so *shrug* not really gonna be apologetic about my stance...been pretty open about it actually :p

at the end of the day it's up to the devs to listen to us, or ignore us...hopefully our ranting, raving, and name calling, has produced at least a couple ideas that might have caused a creative lightbulb to go off in their collective skulls...ahh hah, didn't think of doing it like that!...but if not...oh well.

so enough of that.

screw you carebears...the only good thing you bring to the game is clothing...I kill you, and then skin you and make a nice cozy jacket. or hat. or maybe some boots.

xoxo

[Book]

so enough of that.

screw you carebears...the only good thing you bring to the game is clothing...I kill you, and then skin you and make a nice cozy jacket. or hat. or maybe some boots.

xoxo

And will you be sitting in a mud hut while you do your intricate sewing of skin? :p

We wuv you psychos! :)

edit: on the subject of sewing skin, if you start getting all quiet around lambs and calling people clarice, I really am gonna worry!

[billpaustin]

I think it would be a mistake to make the game all one way or the other. The best approach was taken by DAOC, where PvP was optional, and meaningful. Players can spend the whole time just playing PvE and crafting, if they wanted. Those who want to PvP all the time can do that. PvP'ing brings rewards, both to the player and to the whole realm that wins.

The best games provide the player with a variety of game playstyles, and the player can pick what he wants to do at the time. Craft? Sure. Harvest? Yup. PvE? PvP? yes.

So, provide some extra resources or bonus items that "live" in PvP space and have to be captured and defended. To get the best gear, you will have to PvP. But you are not forced to.

[Dubanka]

I think it would be a mistake to make the game all one way or the other. The best approach was taken by DAOC, where PvP was optional, and meaningful. Players can spend the whole time just playing PvE and crafting, if they wanted. Those who want to PvP all the time can do that. PvP'ing brings rewards, both to the player and to the whole realm that wins.

The best games provide the player with a variety of game playstyles, and the player can pick what he wants to do at the time. Craft? Sure. Harvest? Yup. PvE? PvP? yes.

So, provide some extra resources or bonus items that "live" in PvP space and have to be captured and defended. To get the best gear, you will have to PvP. But you are not forced to.

The problem is, a large / vocal segment of the population doesnt even want the daoc model.
In daoc, yes pvp was optional...but it wasn't if you wanted the best stuff. the dungeons were pvp hot, some of the best loot came from pvp lands, and of course realm rewards and whatnot.

You could always stay in protected lands, but you missed out on a good bit of content if you did.

Teh carebear pop in this game wants to have teh same benefits as those that ventured in the pvp lands, without actually having to venture in the pvp lands...they see no reason as to why they should have to pvp, much less live in pvp lands, to get the best stuff...they do not see the risk:reward model as a viable construct.

[xyberviri]

In daoc, yes pvp was optional...but it wasn't if you wanted the best stuff. the dungeons were pvp hot, some of the best loot came from pvp lands, and of course realm rewards and whatnot.

You could always stay in protected lands, but you missed out on a good bit of content if you did.

Teh carebear pop in this game wants to have teh same benefits as those that ventured in the pvp lands, without actually having to venture in the pvp lands...they see no reason as to why they should have to pvp, much less live in pvp lands, to get the best stuff...they do not see the risk:reward model as a viable construct.

EXACTLY this is the exact problem in every mmo i have played with open world/flagged/zoned pvp, the players that dont want to pvp argue that they should be able to get a free pass into pvp land because there not interested in pvp they just want whats in there. The Risk/Reward model in there heads doesn't apply to them.


How ever everyone forgets that: "Every PvP player is also a PvE player, but not every PvE player PvPs" they just want to punish pvp players for a playstyle they dont agree with, but pvpers dont get to punish pve players for there play style. ????

You kinda see how it really is one sided because one group has to ruin a game for everyone that can handle there shit.
IE:
you can't climb trees anymore because the kid in a wheel chair wanted to be equal and fell and now his arms dont work either.
No more fireworks because some kids burned a warehouse down.
Were going to prohibit alcohol with caffine in it because some dumb ass stayed up for 3 days drank 24 Four Loko's and then shot him self in the head..
You can't handle your drugs and you called the cops and got everyone arrested....

One group has to go out and ruin a game for the whole community.

my suggestion: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7061-Safe-zone-suggestions?p=84723#post84723

[NorCalGooey]

EXACTLY this is the exact problem in every mmo i have played with open world/flagged/zoned pvp, the players that dont want to pvp argue that they should be able to get a free pass into pvp land because there not interested in pvp they just want whats in there. The Risk/Reward model in there heads doesn't apply to them.


How ever everyone forgets that: "Every PvP player is also a PvE player, but not every PvE player PvPs" they just want to punish pvp players for a playstyle they dont agree with, but pvpers dont get to punish pve players for there play style. ????

You kinda see how it really is one sided because one group has to ruin a game for everyone that can handle there shit.
IE:
you can't climb trees anymore because the kid in a wheel chair wanted to be equal and fell and now his arms dont work either.
No more fireworks because some kids burned a warehouse down.
Were going to prohibit alcohol with caffine in it because some dumb ass stayed up for 3 days drank 24 Four Loko's and then shot him self in the head..
You can't handle your drugs and you called the cops and got everyone arrested....

One group has to go out and ruin a game for the whole community.

my suggestion: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7061-Safe-zone-suggestions?p=84723#post84723

Really truly sad isn't it? That's the no risk instant gratification culture we live in these days.

No one deserves a free pass. It's like saying when humans first existed, the most valuable resource was food and water. If there were 10,000 humans, but only enough resources for 1,000 to survive...9,000 would have to die either by starvation/dehydration or PVP.

That's the exact thing true carebears want in this game. To have a free slice of the pie in a world where there isn't enough pie around for it to be free.

[Jadzia]

EXACTLY this is the exact problem in every mmo i have played with open world/flagged/zoned pvp, the players that dont want to pvp argue that they should be able to get a free pass into pvp land because there not interested in pvp they just want whats in there. The Risk/Reward model in there heads doesn't apply to them.


How ever everyone forgets that: "Every PvP player is also a PvE player, but not every PvE player PvPs" they just want to punish pvp players for a playstyle they dont agree with, but pvpers dont get to punish pve players for there play style. ????

You kinda see how it really is one sided because one group has to ruin a game for everyone that can handle there shit.
IE:
you can't climb trees anymore because the kid in a wheel chair wanted to be equal and fell and now his arms dont work either.
No more fireworks because some kids burned a warehouse down.
Were going to prohibit alcohol with caffine in it because some dumb ass stayed up for 3 days drank 24 Four Loko's and then shot him self in the head..
You can't handle your drugs and you called the cops and got everyone arrested....

One group has to go out and ruin a game for the whole community.

my suggestion: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7061-Safe-zone-suggestions?p=84723#post84723

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

[Dubanka]

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

but even in your analogy, there is a benefit.

The guy that goes by plane and jumps is goign to get tot he destination well ahead of the guy going by train...so part of the choice mechanism was that the guy that CHOSE to go by train CHOSE a slower mode of transportation. So while, yes, they both share the commonality of making it to the destination, they definitely did not do so on equal footing.

[NorCalGooey]

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

Fun is not the only incentive for PvP, though. At least in most sand box games.

[joexxxz]

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.


Ok Jazdia you totally confusing yourself. No one is forcing you to travel to the hotel on the airplane. No one is forcing you to PVP. Thats all.

If you dont want to PVP, then dont do it. But dont tell me that I cant travel to the hotel in the airplane???

EDIT: What you suggesting is that I cant travel to the hotel in the airplane??? Gotcha!!!

[Jadzia]

but even in your analogy, there is a benefit.

The guy that goes by plane and jumps is goign to get tot he destination well ahead of the guy going by train...so part of the choice mechanism was that the guy that CHOSE to go by train CHOSE a slower mode of transportation. So while, yes, they both share the commonality of making it to the destination, they definitely did not do so on equal footing.

Not if the train traveler started his journey earlier :) Or was smart enough to book his room by phone.


Fun is not the only incentive for PvP, though. At least in most sand box games.
I'm sure you are right, and I'm sure those games try to get as much players to PvP as they can. So encouraging them to do so.

In this game there are rewards for PvP, loot, later on sieges and taking over cities. I'm glad if there are rewards for PvP....as long as these rewards don't ruin the fun of the other side. So if you PvP and get a very special sieging machine recipe for that thats great. Or a rare resource that is only needed to craft PvP equipment. But if you get something the other side needs too (like a resource that is needed for everyday life) and at the same time the other side's access is limited or even eliminated to said resource thats something I can't agree.

In every game an item has value if it is hard to obtain. I wouldn't mind some rare recipes to be placed in high PvP areas (if we ever get anything like that), so that these recipes would be even more valuable. But these stuffs should be things that are not required to develop a character or to enjoy the game fully...more like a special item, even a vanity one. Actually in all of the games I played the most expensive stuffs were vanity items which had no actual use.

I would agree players to get more combat exp in high PvP areas (like 5% more) when fighting (mobs or players). That way everyone can develop but the ones who prefer a more daring environment can get the feeling that they benefit from it.

@joexxxz: nice to see you, joe, been long ! Try to read my post again, perhaps you will understand it.

[Dubanka]

Thanks for making my point jad.

Yes, the train traveller can indeed make it to the hotel at the same time as the plane traveler if they take extra time to get there.

The train traveler takes a safe, albeit slow, mode of travle; while the plane traveler elects a much faster, if much rskier mode (jumping out of an airplane can have negative side effects)

Risk rewardm...speed at risk of deat, vs safety at the expense iof speed

:)

[Jadzia]

Thanks for making my point jad.

Yes, the train traveller can indeed make it to the hotel at the same time as the plane traveler if they take extra time to get there.

The train traveler takes a safe, albeit slow, mode of travle; while the plane traveler elects a much faster, if much rskier mode (jumping out of an airplane can have negative side effects)

Risk rewardm...speed at risk of deat, vs safety at the expense iof speed

:)

I would doubt that if we count all the preparations needed for the flight and the parachute then the jump is faster. But even if it is, the guy has no right to demand a better room from the hotel owner, or even demand to get the booked room of the train traveler....he saved his own time ( if he did at all) and he did nothing that should be rewarded by the hotel owner.

Check my last suggestion... a bit more combat exp in PvP area, thus bit faster character development. Saving your time...but not getting access to special stuffs :)

[shadowlz]

All these parachuting-phobes makes me sad. Its actually a very fun experience and is completely safe, more people die in train accidents then parachuting accidents. I don't know why these train riding jerkoff have a beef with parachuting, it should be on everyone's list of things to do before they die.

Also What ever happened to taking a car to the hotel? You'll get there weeks ahead of the skydiver and days ahead of the train riders since both need booked. Unless the hotels on the other side of the world. But then the train couldn't get there. Maybe the other side of the US, but could the car driver take a flight and then call a cab? Still get there before the train man. And the skydiver would need to take a flight to the city, and book a skydiving lesson, unless he plans to jump from a Boeing 747.

[Dubanka]

I would doubt that if we count all the preparations needed for the flight and the parachute then the jump is faster. But even if it is, the guy has no right to demand a better room from the hotel owner, or even demand to get the booked room of the train traveler....he saved his own time ( if he did at all) and he did nothing that should be rewarded by the hotel owner.

Check my last suggestion... a bit more combat exp in PvP area, thus bit faster character development. Saving your time...but not getting access to special stuffs :)

im not letting you out of this one :p you started it.

he might not demand a better room, but there may be a better one available (Because he's there earlier)
heck becaue he dropped into the hotel's front lawn on a parachute the owner might just give him his best room, free, because he was so cool.
In everything you do there is a choice, there is a tradeoff...you don't get to reap the harvest if you don't plant the field (even if you lived in the same town).
And i think it would be correct to say, it's not 'risk reward', but 'effort reward'.
the easiest way to balance 'effort reward' is to treat all players equally.
Otherwise we are trying to correlate the effort to do a combat activity, to a non combat activity which is a dicey proposition at best.

Again, see my suggestion over in the save zone discussion in barracks. It correlates potential safety to player effort.


and you're last suggestion, as a means of appeasement, really just illustrates how little you understand 'our' motivations.

Character progressions are a means to an end. The larger game is the point. OUr motivation to develop skills and abilities (including crafting) is so that we can make the most efficient toon possible for use in the larger game.
Heck, fighting other players is just a means to an end (why i'm always talking bout a 'reason to fight').
We truly want to shape the world...or rather...try shape the world to whatever degree the game permits.
This doesnt necessarily mean we want to conquer it...this may mean keeping it from getting conquered.

Added after 15 minutes:


All these parachuting-phobes makes me sad. Its actually a very fun experience and is completely safe, more people die in train accidents then parachuting accidents. I don't know why these train riding jerkoff have a beef with parachuting, it should be on everyone's list of things to do before they die.

Also What ever happened to taking a car to the hotel? You'll get there weeks ahead of the skydiver and days ahead of the train riders since both need booked. Unless the hotels on the other side of the world. But then the train couldn't get there. Maybe the other side of the US, but could the car driver take a flight and then call a cab? Still get there before the train man. And the skydiver would need to take a flight to the city, and book a skydiving lesson, unless he plans to jump from a Boeing 747.

sky diving has perceived risk..tis all.

and you are exactly correct on, 'what about the car'.
most convenient, definitely the fastest for anything under 500 miles, but statistically the most dangerous means of travel. It is a choice.
air, is by far the fastest over long distances, very clunky over short, and they lose your luggage.
Train (or ship for that matter) is arguably the most comfortable way to travel, definitely not the fastest, nor as convenient or versatile as a car...but you're drinking champagne in the dining car so who cares.

everything is a choice...everything has strengths or weaknessed under varying conditions.

[Book]

heck becaue he dropped into the hotel's front lawn on a parachute the owner might just give him his best room, free, because he was so cool.

You kidding? That poor hotel owner's liability insurance premium just tripled. What if his front lawn wasn't level and you twisted your ankle?

Let me guess, it was your choice to jump, he's not liable? Exactly, it was your choice to jump, no cookie for you especially. Cookies to all hotel customers.

[Drevar]

The idea that you might get a better room because the hotel owner thought you were so cool is the mindset we are dealing with. Flashback to UO "k3wld00ds".

The fact is he would probably have you arrested. Ever see those idiots that try to parachute in on the Superbowl, World Series, etc? They always leave the place with shiny new bracelets.

[Jadzia]

You kidding? That poor hotel owner's liability insurance premium just tripled. What if his front lawn wasn't level and you twisted your ankle?

Let me guess, it was your choice to jump, he's not liable? Exactly, it was your choice to jump, no cookie for you especially. Cookies to all hotel customers.

This. Or the hotel owner yells at him and calls the police because the guy fell onto his very precious flowers and killed them, and scared the other hotel guests !

Its very likely that he has to pay some compensation ;)

[MrDDT]

This. Or the hotel owner yells at him and calls the police because the guy fell onto his very precious flowers and killed them, and scared the other hotel guests !

Its very likely that he has to pay some compensation ;)

But before he was able to call the police, the jumper killed the hotel owner took over the hotel and then charged you double for staying at his new hotel.

I mean, this is a fun story and all, but your starting it with something that makes no sense.

If I were to get to the hotel, the same speed, and at the same time, with the same rate to the hotel, why would I take a route where I can get car jacked and killed? Its like Driver can you take me through the ghetto because I feel like I would love to live at the edge a little, maybe we will maybe we wont get car jacked and raped today.

No you wouldnt. But if the guy said, look we can cut through here and get there 2 days sooner. You might think hmm ok lets do it.

Given the same rewards, you would not take the extra risk.

If I didnt have to leave my totem, and bears just came to my place, why would I waste my time traveling around and MAYBE finding a bear, for the same reward as i could have stayed home. That's the root of the problem you guys think you should just be able to stay home and then say "Ya here you have the option to run around looking for bears"

[Eduard]

Because those were the two games he knew had a FPS orientated aiming and twitch gameplay?..
I got no idea..

And no it isn't mid-alpha stage. it isn't beta. We passed that a loong time ago.

It is Prelude stage. Adding to the already content stage, making the game more advanced.
- Doing what most firms do in an MMO.. Fix bugs, add more stuff etc.

You are so wrong... Its barely beta and thats kinda obvious. Basic things are not working as they should and good part of basic things is not even implemented...

[Jadzia]

But before he was able to call the police, the jumper killed the hotel owner took over the hotel and then charged you double for staying at his new hotel.

I mean, this is a fun story and all, but your starting it with something that makes no sense.

If I were to get to the hotel, the same speed, and at the same time, with the same rate to the hotel, why would I take a route where I can get car jacked and killed? Its like Driver can you take me through the ghetto because I feel like I would love to live at the edge a little, maybe we will maybe we wont get car jacked and raped today.

No you wouldnt. But if the guy said, look we can cut through here and get there 2 days sooner. You might think hmm ok lets do it.

Given the same rewards, you would not take the extra risk.

If I didnt have to leave my totem, and bears just came to my place, why would I waste my time traveling around and MAYBE finding a bear, for the same reward as i could have stayed home. That's the root of the problem you guys think you should just be able to stay home and then say "Ya here you have the option to run around looking for bears"
Sorry, but you missed the point entirely. It was only a funny example how higher risk doesn't equal with higher reward...and now you are debating that traveling with parachute is riskier than going by train. Lol.

And the bears come to my camp ? Never seen even one around. What are you talking about ? If they came it would still be very boring...to spend my whole time in my camp only. I would go out for hunting for sure.

[MrDDT]

Sorry, but you missed the point entirely. It was only a funny example how higher risk doesn't equal with higher reward...and now you are debating that traveling with parachute is riskier than going by train. Lol.

And the bears come to my camp ? Never seen even one around. What are you talking about ? If they came it would still be very boring...to spend my whole time in my camp only. I would go out for hunting for sure.


Bad analogies are still bad.

Wow you hitting the nail on the head here.
Because you find it rewarding to leave your camp, that means when you kill a bear you shouldnt get rewarded for it? Because its fun for you to leave your camp that should be your reward (according to your way of thinking).

[Jadzia]

Bad analogies are still bad.

Wow you hitting the nail on the head here.
Because you find it rewarding to leave your camp, that means when you kill a bear you shouldnt get rewarded for it? Because its fun for you to leave your camp that should be your reward (according to your way of thinking).
Gosh. How many more times do we have to tell it to you ? I get loot for PvE. You get loot for PvP. Thats the reward. You choose the one you prefer, or both, according to your taste. The choice itself shouldn't be rewarded since one of the options is not superior to the other one.

[MrDDT]

Gosh. How many more times do we have to tell it to you ? I get loot for PvE. You get loot for PvP. Thats the reward. You choose the one you prefer, or both, according to your taste. The choice itself shouldn't be rewarded since one of the options is not superior to the other one.

You do get loot for PVE, and we do get loot for PVP. The the level of loot you get isnt there.
When you lose your town in PVE, come talk to me about what you should get for a reward equal to what a PVPer loses with his town.

[Jadzia]

You do get loot for PVE, and we do get loot for PVP. The the level of loot you get isnt there.
When you lose your town in PVE, come talk to me about what you should get for a reward equal to what a PVPer loses with his town.

I'm lazy to type again, you already got the answer twice:


My town won't be attacked and destroyed. In return I won't be able to attack and take someone else's town. Tribes who choose to be warring do that for fun and for the hope that they can take over other tribes' territory. The reward is right there in return for the risk you take. If you don't like the risk, you won't get the reward, as in the opportunity to siege other cities.


I agree that losing your totem is much higher risk than dieing. Thats why it has a much higher reward...the option to attack, siege and take over other tribes' cities. If you don't take the risk of your totem being destroyed then you lock out yourself from the option of wars.

[Salvadore]

ILL JUST CROSS TAG!!!

favor - pve side.

That way I can just abuse the system forever without real risk. Best of both worlds.

[orious13]

I'm gone for two seconds and you all start talking about analogies....

[ColonelTEE3]

I'm gone for two seconds and you all start talking about analogies....

Im gone for two weeks and the same discussions are being had.

[AndyI]

These are the same old arguments that are pretty much going nowhere.

People are saying what 'carebears' want, not them saying it. Bottom line is that the hardcore PVP'rs need to stop deciding what others want and actually listen to them.

1.) Reward without risk is pointless. (Everyone here wants crafting to be meaningful and valuable and that means rare resources that everyone can fight over)
2.) Rare resources will not be in safe zones
3.) Safe Zones are tiny and people cannot be online 24hrs a day to protect stuff (EVE was the perfect example of this where 0.0 space would change hands all the time unless you had a mix of players from all timezones and results in massive alliances because otherwise it doesn't work, EVE has stations in 0.0, yes a safe spot!) so unless you have banks etc. you cannot play unless you're in a large tribe where things can be defended, get real. Something has to be safe somewhere for when you're offline.
4.) To travel is unsafe and 99% of the land is PVP, what's wrong with that? Why must it be 100% PVP? Once the world gets more populated there will be no shortage of people to attack. I just don't get the all or nothing polarisation. Some of you really need to apply a little more common sense.

Nobody here is anti PVP or we simply would not have subscribed to this game. Most of us want PVP and most of us want risk vs reward and a Sandbox environment but like many I'm fed up of these silly arguments accusing most of the player base of being PVE carebears when it's just nonsense.

What would happen if you go away on holiday or even just for a weekend and come back to find your homestead had been raised to the ground because it only took a moderate amount of time to be destroyed? You wouldn't have a homestead and everyone would only join large tribes (actually many just wouldn't play). No choice there. They have said the new areas will contain rare resources and be contested areas so why the fuss.

Those that decide to stay in the Lake area still have to risk PVP to travel but those of us that wish to venture out into the new areas risk everything, how does that benefit one play style over another, it doesn't. This game is a PVP game but that doesn't mean it has to be some silly free for all because RL gets in the way. I'm with the devs, balance is the way to go. The game could not survive as a pure PVP only gankfest pure and simple but nor can it survive with PVE only. Currently the game is balanced more towards PVP (once it's working better that is) and anyone who has subscribed subscribes to the game on that basis. I cannot see an argument for change over what Jordi has stated. After all we have no PVE only zones in this game at all which would be considered safe zones.

Added after 8 minutes:

I'd like to also just point out that the vast majority of these threads are started with titles like 'Safe zones must go' etc. not 'Safe zones must stay' so I'd like to know how that's Carebears trying to force how the game is created when actually the vast majority of these threads are started by the hardcore PVP players. Ironic really when most of the posts state that's it's 'Carebears' trying to get thier own way.

Just as in RL Politics, it's the Vociferous minority shouting down the rest. Think about it. Does anyone seriously think someone will remain subscribed to this game if they never left thier homesteads or tribe land?

[Dubanka]

These are the same old arguments that are pretty much going nowhere.

People are saying what 'carebears' want, not them saying it. Bottom line is that the hardcore PVP'rs need to stop deciding what others want and actually listen to them.

1.) Reward without risk is pointless. (Everyone here wants crafting to be meaningful and valuable and that means rare resources that everyone can fight over)
2.) Rare resources will not be in safe zones
3.) Safe Zones are tiny and people cannot be online 24hrs a day to protect stuff (EVE was the perfect example of this where 0.0 space would change hands all the time unless you had a mix of players from all timezones and results in massive alliances because otherwise it doesn't work, EVE has stations in 0.0, yes a safe spot!) so unless you have banks etc. you cannot play unless you're in a large tribe where things can be defended, get real. Something has to be safe somewhere for when you're offline.
4.) To travel is unsafe and 99% of the land is PVP, what's wrong with that? Why must it be 100% PVP? Once the world gets more populated there will be no shortage of people to attack. I just don't get the all or nothing polarisation. Some of you really need to apply a little more common sense.

Nobody here is anti PVP or we simply would not have subscribed to this game. Most of us want PVP and most of us want risk vs reward and a Sandbox environment but like many I'm fed up of these silly arguments accusing most of the player base of being PVE carebears when it's just nonsense.

What would happen if you go away on holiday or even just for a weekend and come back to find your homestead had been raised to the ground because it only took a moderate amount of time to be destroyed? You wouldn't have a homestead and everyone would only join large tribes (actually many just wouldn't play). No choice there. They have said the new areas will contain rare resources and be contested areas so why the fuss.

Those that decide to stay in the Lake area still have to risk PVP to travel but those of us that wish to venture out into the new areas risk everything, how does that benefit one play style over another, it doesn't. This game is a PVP game but that doesn't mean it has to be some silly free for all because RL gets in the way. I'm with the devs, balance is the way to go. The game could not survive as a pure PVP only gankfest pure and simple but nor can it survive with PVE only. Currently the game is balanced more towards PVP (once it's working better that is) and anyone who has subscribed subscribes to the game on that basis. I cannot see an argument for change over what Jordi has stated. After all we have no PVE only zones in this game at all which would be considered safe zones.

Added after 8 minutes:

I'd like to also just point out that the vast majority of these threads are started with titles like 'Safe zones must go' etc. not 'Safe zones must stay' so I'd like to know how that's Carebears trying to force how the game is created when actually the vast majority of these threads are started by the hardcore PVP players. Ironic really when most of the posts state that's it's 'Carebears' trying to get thier own way.

Just as in RL Politics, it's the Vociferous minority shouting down the rest. Think about it. Does anyone seriously think someone will remain subscribed to this game if they never left thier homesteads or tribe land?

did you actually read any of the thread before posting?

the main problem right now is the vocal ultra carebear contingent does not agree with most of your points.
1. they see no reason why they should risk anything. as they believe you making a choice to incur the risk and thus deserve no extra reward for taking, and they definitely shouldnt be penalized for not taking it.
2. They don't see any reason why they shouldnt be, or at least they shouldn't be able to locate safezones in the immediate vicinity of the rares.
4. not sure i've heard anyone mention travel...since currently there is no need to.

[orious13]

Im gone for two weeks and the same discussions are being had.

Touche...Touche...

[Jadzia]

Im gone for two weeks and the same discussions are being had.

This discussion has been going on for 16 months. I do wonder if it ever ends....

[AndyI]

did you actually read any of the thread before posting?

the main problem right now is the vocal ultra carebear contingent does not agree with most of your points.
1. they see no reason why they should risk anything. as they believe you making a choice to incur the risk and thus deserve no extra reward for taking, and they definitely shouldnt be penalized for not taking it.
2. They don't see any reason why they shouldnt be, or at least they shouldn't be able to locate safezones in the immediate vicinity of the rares.
4. not sure i've heard anyone mention travel...since currently there is no need to.

Yes I did but got bored half way through it because the argument never moves forward. You're all like broken records not giving an inch to either view instead of applying some common sense. You mention the ultra vocal carebear community but most of the posts are in response to PVP arguments that go to the other extreme end of the argument about there should be no safe zones etc. and a few people do not make the entire community. The posts come about because everyone is always starting an argument by being polarised one way or the other in response to posts by those opposed to them. The devs have said they want balance and the sooner everyone gets used to it, the better.

[MrDDT]

Yes I did but got bored half way through it because the argument never moves forward. You're all like broken records not giving an inch to either view instead of applying some common sense. You mention the ultra vocal carebear community but most of the posts are in response to PVP arguments that go to the other extreme end of the argument about there should be no safe zones etc. and a few people do not make the entire community. The posts come about because everyone is always starting an argument by being polarised one way or the other in response to posts by those opposed to them. The devs have said they want balance and the sooner everyone gets used to it, the better.


Difficultly vs Reward.

[AndyI]

Difficultly vs Reward.

Absolutely.

But you only have to look at Salvadore's posts, he talks about the game being moulded by the 'Carebears', what complete utter nonsense. The game until recently hadn't moved on much from last year and some of us didn't just join in Feb this year so the goal of the game hasn't been moved on by anyone significanltly in any direction. Yes we have safe zones, oh right 30m in the whole game world. Like I'm going to sit in my safe zone and do nothing and never leave it. Some people need to stop saying what others think and actually listen for a change.

This game has only just started to see some actual features and is laughable that anyone has significantly changed this games direction to this point. Once this is a game and it has more features then and only then might you have an argument if it has been watered down but from every post I've read of Jordis, his overall goal has not changed, just some never actually read them. But in the abscence of game mechanics something had to be done and that was safe zones. Prelude people, the definition was the build phase prior to everything else. The only thing I've seen the community have much impact on was the addition of more trash heaps.

The state of this game is due to the old devs taking Jordi at his word. Until it has more features it's not really even a game yet and people are arguing before anything has been added. Why don't poeple actually wait and see what the direction is before shouting that this group or that group are getting their own way. Like a bunch of bickering children.

[Dubanka]

and you're a hypocrite, because you're rehashing a position that pops up every 4-6 weeks.

'why don't you people just stfu and wait for them to finish the game'

[insert we paid for a game / subscription] counter argement

blah blah blah blah.

you'll have this stuff raging until the devs actually implement a feature set that defines it one way or another.

[Trenchfoot]

you'll have this stuff raging until the devs actually implement a feature set that defines it one way or another.

^^ This.

I don't even mind the implementation so much as the 'definition one way or another'. It's difficult to support a game based on vague neutral statements and player conjecture.

EDIT: I think it's also difficult for a small indy title to draw a line in the sand and support itself exclusively with a niche player base.

[Book]

Not sure how all this works but I kinda think one reason I've been edging my way to more of a "ultra-carebear" point of view, is simply in response to what I saw as a "ultra-pvp" point of view developing.

In a sense, if someone comes into a potential negotiation with demands I see as extreme to one end, the only logical response is to go extreme in the other end. How else would the compromise be in the middle?

If the response is to come back with reasonable answers, then the compromise will inevitably be skewed to either extreme side. (ie. you say $150, I only want to pay $100, best I reply $50). It would probably be a shame and a bad thing for the silent majority if things wind up too skewed to either side.

I don't expect the end-result to be similar to either extreme. I would imagine the devs can parse through all the rhetoric just fine and figure out what would work for the middle, which is where most people hang out.

Wouldn't mind being there myself, but hey, I'm just going for balance here. :p

I think what Xyberviri suggested the other day sounded like a pretty good compromise, until attempts were made to skew more towards the pvp side. Only one response to that makes sense if the hope is to bring it back towards the middle-ground.

Edit/Addition: Incidentally, the devs seem mad-busy with features right now, including sorting of recipes and scroll bars which is way, way cool. There's even been some positive feedback about the combat mechanics upgrade. Good stuff on all fronts. I would imagine the intricacies of how to develop the right cultural environment isn't really getting on their plate anytime soon. That will be for when more features are in. Things like Comfort, Hunger, and Thirst will inevitably change the way the Xsyon world operates. I think it will change it so much, these discussions will change. With a huge map, and those things implemented, it's just a very different dynamic.

[Salvadore]

But you only have to look at Salvadore's posts, he talks about the game being moulded by the 'Carebears', what complete utter nonsense. The game until recently hadn't moved on much from last year and some of us didn't just join in Feb this year so the goal of the game hasn't been moved on by anyone significanltly in any direction. Yes we have safe zones, oh right 30m in the whole game world. Like I'm going to sit in my safe zone and do nothing and never leave it. Some people need to stop saying what others think and actually listen for a change.

This is the ONLY game that I've EVER seen that ADVERTISED:
-Full FFA Combat
-Full Loot
-Tribal warfare
-Various other aspects that would "attract" pvp-centric players

WITHOUT EVEN IMPLEMENTING EVEN A BASIC COMBAT SYSTEM. It was so broke and basic that it didn't even technically work ON RELEASE DAY.

However, there was a vast majority of the "carebear" side crying of forums about fear of risk and wanting all reward. Thus, we see: inability to loot, safezone safety, no purpose to any of the multitudes of craftable items (building or item wise), and no real purpose for anyone to log into the game BESIDES building a sandcastle strictly for "the fun of it".

To me, it sounds like the vocal "squeaky wheels" pretty much helped nail the coffin shut on this project. Especially if you look at the droves of pvp-centric players that purchased this game out of the sheer PROMISE that the game could provide something they are looking for, but have now all /logged out and will probably never return.

This is from me LISTENING to the playerbases that I helped pull here and watched LEAVE IN DISGUST, seeing the "Jadzia" types flooding constructive posts with circular arguments on the forums (over 2k posts, lol), and myself logging in and not being able to find a single other active person in a few hours of legitimately looking for one. No tricks here.

[MrDDT]

This is the ONLY game that I've EVER seen that ADVERTISED:
-Full FFA Combat
-Full Loot
-Tribal warfare
-Various other aspects that would "attract" pvp-centric players

WITHOUT EVEN IMPLEMENTING EVEN A BASIC COMBAT SYSTEM. It was so broke and basic that it didn't even technically work ON RELEASE DAY.

However, there was a vast majority of the "carebear" side crying of forums about fear of risk and wanting all reward. Thus, we see: inability to loot, safezone safety, no purpose to any of the multitudes of craftable items (building or item wise), and no real purpose for anyone to log into the game BESIDES building a sandcastle strictly for "the fun of it".

To me, it sounds like the vocal "squeaky wheels" pretty much helped nail the coffin shut on this project. Especially if you look at the droves of pvp-centric players that purchased this game out of the sheer PROMISE that the game could provide something they are looking for, but have now all /logged out and will probably never return.

This is from me LISTENING to the playerbases that I helped pull here and watched LEAVE IN DISGUST, seeing the "Jadzia" types flooding constructive posts with circular arguments on the forums (over 2k posts, lol), and myself logging in and not being able to find a single other active person in a few hours of legitimately looking for one. No tricks here.



This is them saying its all intended. Dont get upset, this is the whole plan. Carebears will flock to this game once architect is working in game trust me, that's going to fix everything. Who need a reason to fight? Just the crafting and building itself is fun. I mean havnt you tried making a brick all in game? Its sooo fun. Its only 100 bricks too. I cant wait to make my whole town out of limestone brick walls, its going to be so fun.

[China]

This is the ONLY game that I've EVER However, there was a vast majority of the "carebear" side crying of forums about fear of risk and wanting all reward. Thus, we see: inability to loot, that's a lie

safezone safety, yeah? what about it? You knew there would be safe zones for prelude coming into the game, and if you didn't, then you need to take reading comprehension for high schoolers 101
no purpose to any of the multitudes of craftable items (building or item wise) sorry you are too dense to get the big picture of the game....my advice, go play something else or educate yourself (that one ain't probably going to happen, takes IQ of more than a pencil

, and no real purpose for anyone to log into the game BESIDES building a sandcastle strictly for "the fun of it". - see answer above.

To me, it sounds like the vocal "squeaky wheels" pretty much helped nail the coffin shut on this project. Especially if you look at the droves of pvp-centric players that purchased this game out .

Hyperbole much?

Please give me the plithera of names calling for a 'carebear' game. If you can name 5 to 10 "carebears" that regulary post on the forums - and back that up with names. I'll eat my hat.

I on the other hand can give you more than 10 + 20 very vocal pvp names that always....and I mean always whine on these forums. Get over it already. This is a pvp/pve game.

If you aren't finding all the pvp you want, it means #1, you are a coward - #2 you never leave YOUR safe zone - #3 you are sneaky and are afraid of getting killed/ganked by announcing your intentions.

I'm one of those that rarely posts on the forums along with many many others that actually play the game, and plan for the future, but we definitely, one and all get tired of your whiney squeaky little boy voices. It would be nice if you could ever be constructive, but that ain't going to happen - all your type knows is I want, I want....waaa....mommy! I want

You sir, are all hat and no cattle!

China

[MrDDT]

Hyperbole much?

Please give me the plithera of names calling for a 'carebear' game. If you can name 5 to 10 "carebears" that regulary post on the forums - and back that up with names. I'll eat my hat.

I on the other hand can give you more than 10 + 20 very vocal pvp names that always....and I mean always whine on these forums. Get over it already. This is a pvp/pve game.

If you aren't finding all the pvp you want, it means #1, you are a coward - #2 you never leave YOUR safe zone - #3 you are sneaky and are afraid of getting killed/ganked by announcing your intentions.

I'm one of those that rarely posts on the forums along with many many others that actually play the game, and plan for the future, but we definitely, one and all get tired of your whiney squeaky little boy voices. It would be nice if you could ever be constructive, but that ain't going to happen - all your type knows is I want, I want....waaa....mommy! I want

You sir, are all hat and no cattle!

China

Finding PVP is easy in this game. Just buy a second account right?

[China]

Finding PVP is easy in this game. Just buy a second account right?

You can if you want. No law against it. We all know you have at least 2 accounts DDT, hell maybe 3?

I don't have that much time, cuz I work for a living (that's not a bad thing). I certainly have nothing against multi accounts.

China

Added after 36 minutes:


Just the crafting and building itself is fun. I mean havnt you tried making a brick all in game? Its sooo fun. Its only 100 bricks too. I cant wait to make my whole town out of limestone brick walls, its going to be so fun.

HA! You live in squaler ddt. I've seen your digs, pathetic is too kind a word. Now - you may have bigger plans and that could all change. I've noticed you have added peeps to your tribe and since they re-spawned all the f'in trees you cut down, maybe you can get some LOGS & LABOR and it won't be quite the dump it was 2 weeks ago. ; )

I wish you all the luck, ...no really.

China

[Salvadore]

Hyperbole much?

Please give me the plithera of names calling for a 'carebear' game. If you can name 5 to 10 "carebears" that regulary post on the forums - and back that up with names. I'll eat my hat.

I on the other hand can give you more than 10 + 20 very vocal pvp names that always....and I mean always whine on these forums. Get over it already. This is a pvp/pve game.

If you aren't finding all the pvp you want, it means #1, you are a coward - #2 you never leave YOUR safe zone - #3 you are sneaky and are afraid of getting killed/ganked by announcing your intentions.

I'm one of those that rarely posts on the forums along with many many others that actually play the game, and plan for the future, but we definitely, one and all get tired of your whiney squeaky little boy voices. It would be nice if you could ever be constructive, but that ain't going to happen - all your type knows is I want, I want....waaa....mommy! I want

You sir, are all hat and no cattle!

China

EASY THERE KILLER!

Getting defensive and throwing personal attacks simply proves my point. Calling me dense, attacking my IQ, calling me a coward, afraid, whiney voices, etc simply shows your anger in the fact that you know I'm right and are having issues admitting it. I won't stoop to your level and throw personal attacks your way simply because I've already won (judging by your huffed-up response).

But I will call you a hypocrite, since you provided NOTHING constructive. Now, with that out of the way, I will discredit your anger:

Looting: You called me a liar. If you've killed anyone in game, or even accidentally died, you would know that you can set your loot bag to "private" which means nobody can access this. Therefore, I win - no "real" such thing as looting in this game. Throw in a naked toon with a PO weapon (that cannot be looted btw) and you are completely discredited. Yes, you can loot clothes from people and armor...BUT WHY? There is no real use for these, therefore, are irrelevant to even existing in game (see carebear importance in relation to actual game mechanics argument above). Thus, no "REAL" looting.

On to eating your hat - Jadzia (self appointed carebear queen) has more posts than ALL of the pro-pvp advocates that have EVER graced these forums - COMBINED. And thats just 1 of them. Do the math, then start eating! P.S. she is just ONE of the names I care to mention, no need to mention more.

I "get" the picture of the game. So do all of the other vast majority of players that have LEFT the game. This forum actually has less active MEMBERS than some other emulated games that are far beyond dead in existence. OBVIOUSLY, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE.

Thank you for proving my point Mr. Hypocrite, have a nice day!


Finding PVP is easy in this game. Just buy a second account right?

The last guy i found in game took me almost 4 hours. I killed him. He /hatetell'd me that he was going to report me.

I was saddened that he logged out after ;[

[MrDDT]

You can if you want. No law against it. We all know you have at least 2 accounts DDT, hell maybe 3?

I don't have that much time, cuz I work for a living (that's not a bad thing). I certainly have nothing against multi accounts.

China

Added after 36 minutes:



HA! You live in squaler ddt. I've seen your digs, pathetic is too kind a word. Now - you may have bigger plans and that could all change. I've noticed you have added peeps to your tribe and since they re-spawned all the f'in trees you cut down, maybe you can get some LOGS & LABOR and it won't be quite the dump it was 2 weeks ago. ; )

I wish you all the luck, ...no really.

China


Haha, sorry.
I was trying to be funny. I guess you missed the joke.

About my "squaler" (I think you mean squalor). I have everything I need and more at my finger tips.
I have great tools, I have tons of resources, I have armor, weapons etc.
Just because the ground isnt flat, or the walls are not terraformed up, is showing part of what people are saying here. Why should I level the ground? Why should I have a moat or a wall, or build huts? Because they are pretty to look at?
Well tell you what, I would rather live in an easy to use tribe area, than one that's a maze like Ive seen up north, where you have hard times getting out of your own town to help your own teammates.

Besides also, the place is trashed mostly because we dont care about it. This is only temp housing.

You should work on learning to play the game so you dont get stabbed in the back every time you see me, unless you like that. Seems you dont have a problem with it, as you always trying to tango with me. Dont worry, I love poking at you with my axe ;)


EASY THERE KILLER!

Getting defensive and throwing personal attacks simply proves my point. Calling me dense, attacking my IQ, calling me a coward, afraid, whiney voices, etc simply shows your anger in the fact that you know I'm right and are having issues admitting it. I won't stoop to your level and throw personal attacks your way simply because I've already won (judging by your huffed-up response).

But I will call you a hypocrite, since you provided NOTHING constructive. Now, with that out of the way, I will discredit your anger:

Looting: You called me a liar. If you've killed anyone in game, or even accidentally died, you would know that you can set your loot bag to "private" which means nobody can access this. Therefore, I win - no "real" such thing as looting in this game. Throw in a naked toon with a PO weapon (that cannot be looted btw) and you are completely discredited. Yes, you can loot clothes from people and armor...BUT WHY? There is no real use for these, therefore, are irrelevant to even existing in game (see carebear importance in relation to actual game mechanics argument above). Thus, no "REAL" looting.

On to eating your hat - Jadzia (self appointed carebear queen) has more posts than ALL of the pro-pvp advocates that have EVER graced these forums - COMBINED. And thats just 1 of them. Do the math, then start eating! P.S. she is just ONE of the names I care to mention, no need to mention more.

I "get" the picture of the game. So do all of the other vast majority of players that have LEFT the game. This forum actually has less active MEMBERS than some other emulated games that are far beyond dead in existence. OBVIOUSLY, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE.

Thank you for proving my point Mr. Hypocrite, have a nice day!



The last guy i found in game took me almost 4 hours. I killed him. He /hatetell'd me that he was going to report me.

I was saddened that he logged out after ;[

Tell me about it. I was getting called a "griefer" for killing someone outside of their tribe area. Another guy called me a "griefer and exploiter" because I killed him while he was afk fishing. I guess I was supposed to know he was afk, and wait for him to get back, then attack him but only if he wanted too.

Anyways, I help noobs now because finding someone to fight is very very rare. They do have quite a lot of PVP events hosted by guides, like once every few days.

[inhabit]

Thus, we see: inability to loot, safezone safety, no purpose to any of the multitudes of craftable items (building or item wise), and no real purpose for anyone to log into the game BESIDES building a sandcastle strictly for "the fun of it".

Completely agree with this statement, even though they seem to have focused their efforts on a new combat system there is still no reason to fight or craft items.
This lack of "reason" is whats killing both sides at the moment (looks cool aint enough, it has to have a purpose).

Ohh i can make master/supreme tools....erm at the moment so what!!

[AndyI]

and you're a hypocrite, because you're rehashing a position that pops up every 4-6 weeks.

'why don't you people just stfu and wait for them to finish the game'

counter argement

blah blah blah blah.

you'll have this stuff raging until the devs actually implement a feature set that defines it one way or another.

I was saying it was an old argument. I'm rehashing nothing. You however seem to be having the same argument in every one of these threads. Yes we all paid for a game that isn't where we want it to be but that isn't what people are arguing about here. LOL

Added after 5 minutes:

The bottom line is quite simple, without the mechanics they needed in game and because they had to release it when they did, they had no choice but to have safe zones as there was no criminal flagging system etc. Only now are they adding combat changes that will make a difference, rare resources to help an economy and bring about rare items and new land which will be contested only.

Even if some decide to stay in tribe lands, that's thier choice and if they wish to sub to a game and not go anywhere who am I to care? They help pay for the devs so it's a win win. And as for the reward / risk ratio argument, that's why we have PVP'ers runnign around naked so they don't lose anything. Lose what, everything is easy to make? Everyone just needs to show a little more patience because you're aguing over something that hasn't happened yet..

Added after 8 minutes:


This is the ONLY game that I've [I]EVER seen that ADVERTISED:
-Full FFA Combat
-Full Loot
-Tribal warfare
-Various other aspects that would "attract" pvp-centric players

WITHOUT EVEN IMPLEMENTING EVEN A BASIC COMBAT SYSTEM. It was so broke and basic that it didn't even technically work ON RELEASE DAY.

However, there was a vast majority of the "carebear" side crying of forums about fear of risk and wanting all reward. Thus, we see: inability to loot, safezone safety, no purpose to any of the multitudes of craftable items (building or item wise), and no real purpose for anyone to log into the game BESIDES building a sandcastle strictly for "the fun of it".

To me, it sounds like the vocal "squeaky wheels" pretty much helped nail the coffin shut on this project. Especially if you look at the droves of pvp-centric players that purchased this game out of the sheer PROMISE that the game could provide something they are looking for, but have now all /logged out and will probably never return.

This is from me LISTENING to the playerbases that I helped pull here and watched LEAVE IN DISGUST, seeing the "Jadzia" types flooding constructive posts with circular arguments on the forums (over 2k posts, lol), and myself logging in and not being able to find a single other active person in a few hours of legitimately looking for one. No tricks here.

To a certain extent I agree but as I said, the game needed to change BECAUSE it wasn't complete otherwise it would have lacked any balance whatsoever. tbf on Jadzia, her analogy never said she was against PVP but that she didn't want to be forced to play that way. In what way does that affect you or I, shes not telling the devs to not do PVP? The person that started this thread also never said no to PVP in fact they said it would add excitement. And I've lost track of how many times the devs have said the looting bugs will be fixed so it will be full loot but still it's gets mentioned as part of the argument.

What put paid to the features you talk about was the state of the game, pure and simple. If they didn't want to do PVP why would they be doing tribal warfare and making the new zones contested only with rare resources and combat fixes now? It sounds to me like everyone is just impatient and blaming each other to no end. Because if that is the plan, clearly they haven't listened just to 'carebears'. They want both game styles in game, that doesn't mean you wont get to play the way you want to does it?

Added after 5 minutes:


Completely agree with this statement, even though they seem to have focused their efforts on a new combat system there is still no reason to fight or craft items.
This lack of "reason" is whats killing both sides at the moment (looks cool aint enough, it has to have a purpose).

Ohh i can make master/supreme tools....erm at the moment so what!!

Combat by itself wont change anything which is why they are also doing the new lands and the rare resources. We just have to wait till all of these things start to make a difference together. I couldn't understand why people were complaining about new lands being added and to focus just on combat when one or the other alone wont fix the current situation as you quite rightly point out.

[Jadzia]

On to eating your hat - Jadzia (self appointed carebear queen) has more posts than ALL of the pro-pvp advocates that have EVER graced these forums - COMBINED.

Thanks for the title, lol. Sure I have high post count....I have never left the forum since 2010 March, and I did argue a lot with PvPers. But show me just 1 thread that I started asking for a carebear game...please. You guys start new threads every week, with the same old boring stuffs... 'No more safe zones!!', 'Carebears ruining Xsyon !!', 'Xsyon is moving to carebear', 'Remove safe zones NOW!!!', etc. I have never ever asked for PvP to be removed from the game, or even to limit it. Never. While we were arguing about ideal game system I did say which is my preferred one...but never started a thread about it, never started a poll about it and so on. I stated hundreds of times that I'm fine with the mechanics we have now....open PvP with safe zones and planned consensual warfare. Never asked for a carebear game, I only argue with PLAYERS who want to force the devs to change their plan.

I never asked for less PvP in the game. I only argue with players who want to force MORE on us.

So again, please show me just 1 thread I started asking for a carebear game...something like 'LIMIT PvP NOW ! We have enough of it !' or 'Remove FFA PvP it will kill the game !'. If you find just one I'll join China and eat my hat too.

[Salvadore]

First paragraph


Blah blah VALIDATION blah blah.



I never asked for less PvP in the game. I only argue with players who want to force MORE on us.

So again, please show me just 1 thread I started asking for a carebear game...something like 'LIMIT PvP NOW ! We have enough of it !' or 'Remove FFA PvP it will kill the game !'. If you find just one I'll join China and eat my hat too.

How about THIS: http://hopixsyon.enjin.com/forum/m/1362034/viewthread/573577-playing-game-way-we-want

This is from Hopi Tribe's main guild page, public forum section. This is in the open discussion forum and is obviously ADVERTISING how Hopi members are only interested in "playing the game the way that we want" which is the NAME of the thread. In this thread, the third post is you stating "They are a bunch of bored teenagers, I hope they will find something else to do after launch. Just think of 15 years old boys and you will understand them". In the eighth post you state "Hehe, the best idea ever!" while quoting another person saying "What we need to do is trick someone into developing a perfect griefer game somewhere and lure them all away." SO WHAT that you didn't start the argument, you went right along with it AGREEING.

MMMMKAY...now, with Hopi being the main zerg/carebear tribe in Xsyon, and you being one of the heads/starters of said tribe, with seeing you OPENLY admit that your main goal is to "play the way you want", have a verbal bias against the pvp-centric playerbase, an open intent to verbally mislead and talk constructive arguments into flooded and spiraled circles, and an obvious 2k+ posts involving circular arguments and flooding -

YEAH ID SAY START EATING.

Your underlying intent has always been to oppose any style of pvp. No reason to try to validate or spin anything involving it. If the biggest ever carebear faction in Xsyon had a queen, YOU would be it.


I never asked for less PvP in the game. I only argue with players who want to force MORE on us.

At this point in the dead game, you dont really have a choice. We (the pvp centric crowd) have been right all along - You need more/balanced pvp before the game has any point whatsoever. Hell, even your own Tribe has openly declared Victory in Xsyon: http://hopixsyon.enjin.com/home

"In the end, we have accomplished all that there is to accomplish in the current build of Xsyon."

Just do us all a favor - quit flooding useful posts and get outta the way. You've already pioneered your own personal preference for a game that has HUGE potential, ruining it for everyone else. Playing it the way that "YOU" want is obviously detrimental to the game. You are a PERFECT example for my argument because of all of the aforementioned.

[AndyI]

Give me a break. Even I detest griefers which is not the same as opposing PVP. I PVP'ed in EVE and LOTR and most of the PVP'ers I ran with hated the kids with their smack talk as well. There is a huge difference between playing a game in the spirit in which the game is designed to be played and running around killing people just to have a laugh and act like children with your mates in tow and not make any attempt at playing the rest of the game. The difference is normally a question of maturity.

[MrDDT]

Thanks for the title, lol. Sure I have high post count....I have never left the forum since 2010 March, and I did argue a lot with PvPers. But show me just 1 thread that I started asking for a carebear game...please. You guys start new threads every week, with the same old boring stuffs... 'No more safe zones!!', 'Carebears ruining Xsyon !!', 'Xsyon is moving to carebear', 'Remove safe zones NOW!!!', etc. I have never ever asked for PvP to be removed from the game, or even to limit it. Never. While we were arguing about ideal game system I did say which is my preferred one...but never started a thread about it, never started a poll about it and so on. I stated hundreds of times that I'm fine with the mechanics we have now....open PvP with safe zones and planned consensual warfare. Never asked for a carebear game, I only argue with PLAYERS who want to force the devs to change their plan.

I never asked for less PvP in the game. I only argue with players who want to force MORE on us.

So again, please show me just 1 thread I started asking for a carebear game...something like 'LIMIT PvP NOW ! We have enough of it !' or 'Remove FFA PvP it will kill the game !'. If you find just one I'll join China and eat my hat too.

They already changed their plan.
It started with allowing safe zones after prelude. Then it moved to other things like we have now with permissions on baskets in the open. Unable to loot people that you kill, etc.

You never started a thread. So Im not seeing your point here. You just cry about it in threads saying "If we have this then we need to have 2 servers or everyone will quit" type of stuff.

Now you have your carebear game, and its kicking butt isnt it? How is your game doing? Everyone thoroughly bored yet? Do you have enough people playing the game the way you like it?

[AndyI]

They already changed their plan.
It started with allowing safe zones after prelude. Then it moved to other things like we have now with permissions on baskets in the open. Unable to loot people that you kill, etc.

You never started a thread. So Im not seeing your point here. You just cry about it in threads saying "If we have this then we need to have 2 servers or everyone will quit" type of stuff.

Now you have your carebear game, and its kicking butt isnt it? How is your game doing? Everyone thoroughly bored yet? Do you have enough people playing the game the way you like it?

tbf they have said they are changing basket permissions so that baskets in the open will be public. They have also stated that the loot issue will be fixed. How is it a carebear game, all but your own little bit of land is PVP? Look majority of people will not remain in thier tribe land and the new lands will be contested. DDT, you know this so I don't know why you're also flagging this up as an argument of the game having been made 'carebear'. Some perspective would be good. The game is the way it is through lack of features, simple as.

We don't have banks so we have to have basket permissions. We don't have gates or buildings that are meaningful for defence or a criminal system so we have to have safe zones. These are balance issues, lack of content or bugs that are going to be addressed. This is flogging a dead horse, Jadzia nor anyone else is responsible for any of the above, it's where were at! PVP centric players want basically a PVP only game, Jordi doesn't and none of you seem content with PVP everywhere except a tiny sliver of land. The population issue is why there is noone to kill, again not Jadzias fault.

[MrDDT]

Give me a break. Even I detest griefers which is not the same as opposing PVP. I PVP'ed in EVE and LOTR and most of the PVP'ers I ran with hated the kids with their smack talk as well. There is a huge difference between playing a game in the spirit in which the game is designed to be played and running around killing people just to have a laugh and act like children with your mates in tow and not make any attempt at playing the rest of the game. The difference is normally a question of maturity.

I detest griefers also.
I think Griefing mostly happens because there is nothing else for them to focus on. Meaning like structured PVP, things to take. Also another reason people grief is because of the limitations they have to punish or force someone/or group of people to do something.

Right now griefing is very easy in this game. I can do things like wall your tribe in, I can dig up your area etc.
If they were to remove safe areas, then these griefers could easy be pushed back and away from your totem.

I mean right now I have a tribe that's really only 50m away, and they attack my members everyday and kill them and destroy any resources we have near our tribe unprotected. Is that griefing? Hard to say, because there is NOTHING I can do to stop this tribe. I cant kill them, because desync prevents me, along with safe area they have. Loot in this game isnt really a huge deal, so even if I did kill them once in a while it would only stop them for 5mins. So who is the griefer? Is this just pay back for me killing a tribe member of theirs once? Or is this griefing? Without safe areas, I could just remove the totem. But even then it would need more behind it. THe totem itself would need to have resources / time places on it, so that they couldnt just keep placing it, or it would be a wasted time there too.

See, I know a lot of people here think Im a griefer. Im not. Some actions can be seen as griefing, but really they are not for that point. Clearcutting trees had a lot of people calling me a griefer. But now others are doing the same, because they understand its the only freaking way to train logging. Its not a players fault for that. But people see it as griefing.
People see being killed as griefing.

Safe zones is causing a lot of these griefing thoughts and issues. I believe in safe zones, I really do. But right now how Xsyon is, the lack of strife and ways to combat these "griefers" is killing the game.

Resources are almost meaningless because they are so common, having good weapons and gear is worthless because really I would rather have poor QL weapons to train up faster than have a Supreme weapon to go out killing. PVP is a bad joke. Walls and buildings are worthless.
So tell me whats the point of playing the game? Surely it cant be for the great PVE in the game because thats not only lacking being good at all, but really again why would I want to PVE?

Added after 8 minutes:


tbf they have said they are changing basket permissions so that baskets in the open will be public. They have also stated that the loot issue will be fixed. How is it a carebear game, all but your own little bit of land is PVP? Look majority of people will not remain in thier tribe land and the new lands will be contested. DDT, you know this so I don't know why you're also flagging this up as an argument of the game having been made 'carebear'. Some perspective would be good. The game is the way it is through lack of features, simple as.

We don't have banks so we have to have basket permissions. We don't have gates or buildings that are meaningful for defence or a criminal system so we have to have safe zones. These are balance issues, lack of content or bugs that are going to be addressed. This is flogging a dead horse, Jadzia nor anyone else is responsible for any of the above, it's where were at! PVP centric players want basically a PVP only game, Jordi doesn't and none of you seem content with PVP everywhere except a tiny sliver of land. The population issue is why there is noone to kill, again not Jadzias fault.


PVP players dont want a PVP only game. Im not asking for PVP only, heck few are at all.
They want difficulty vs reward.

Meaning reasons to fight also.

If you take PVP out of the picture. Then PVE needs to be MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH harder.
While PVP is already top end game hard. So you wont have to make these raid monsters, and world events happen to make PVE hard enough to warrant needing supreme items.

But I tell you what, drop a rare resource, that is very useful in a contested area, fix desync (which they already have on the test server) and BAM you have a reason for all the good items and armor, and tools just about everything.

PVPers want to rule the game, and it doesnt mean it has to rule every zone, and every player or every tribe. They just need a king of the hill to fight over, it needs to have a reason to fight other than "Im king of this hill" because being king of a hill that people go "So what" over or "no one wants that hill anyways" is pointless and not going to help anything.



Now when you start looking at that, sounds pretty easy right? Wrong. Because you need to look at all the details to get it right. Things like. Cant have safe areas anywhere NEAR these PVP events, else it will jack up PVP.
You cant have these basket issues able to drop a basket and be private. You cant have these looting issues, you cant have exploiting issues with water, you cant have cheating, and hacking you cant have tons of things. To make it work. But all these things also work over the carebear side so they need to be done anyways.

While carebears wanting, more colors for armor doesnt effect anyone but carebears. Or more flower types.

Jadzia is partly at fault for these issues, her and people like her, because they cry about changing it, then they get their way, and then they are upset because people griefed them or that people are bored and not playing.

If they didnt make the game carebear mode for these people, you wouldnt have 1/2 the issues with the game right now. Granted, the game would still have major issues but it would be much much better off with people playing and having fun then bored and quitting.

[AndyI]

I mostly agree but it's a lack of game mechanics (consequences) more than anything causing these issues. PVE doesn't work right now and the only PVE I care about is if I can level doing it and get decent loot but you can't. Hopefully it will all change soon and people will calm down a little. I've levelled logging through experience but it's time consuming and expensive and I'm not going to do the same for hunting. Jadzia is not reponsible for exploits or bugs, that's a lack of testing and adequate design. As you say, in principle there is nothing wrong with safe zones just it is a mess in it's current incarnation.

Jordi has said Bears etc. will be made much tougher. Even a new chr can kill them with ease. Far far too easy, we need some that need a couple of people in order to kill them. But yes resources and rares are the key and should come with the expansion area.

[MrDDT]

I mostly agree but it's a lack of game mechanics (consequences) more than anything causing these issues. PVE doesn't work right now and the only PVE I care about is if I can level doing it and get decent loot but you can't. Hopefully it will all change soon and people will calm down a little. I've levelled logging through experience but it's time consuming and expensive and I'm not going to do the same for hunting.

Then you should love the PVE in this game.
You can level combat skills with it.
Also bones in this game is the best loot. Its the rarest and used in MANY things.

[Jadzia]

How about THIS: http://hopixsyon.enjin.com/forum/m/1362034/viewthread/573577-playing-game-way-we-want

This is from Hopi Tribe's main guild page, public forum section. This is in the open discussion forum and is obviously ADVERTISING how Hopi members are only interested in "playing the game the way that we want" which is the NAME of the thread. In this thread, the third post is you stating "They are a bunch of bored teenagers, I hope they will find something else to do after launch. Just think of 15 years old boys and you will understand them". In the eighth post you state "Hehe, the best idea ever!" while quoting another person saying "What we need to do is trick someone into developing a perfect griefer game somewhere and lure them all away." SO WHAT that you didn't start the argument, you went right along with it AGREEING.

MMMMKAY...now, with Hopi being the main zerg/carebear tribe in Xsyon, and you being one of the heads/starters of said tribe, with seeing you OPENLY admit that your main goal is to "play the way you want", have a verbal bias against the pvp-centric playerbase, an open intent to verbally mislead and talk constructive arguments into flooded and spiraled circles, and an obvious 2k+ posts involving circular arguments and flooding -

YEAH ID SAY START EATING.

Your underlying intent has always been to oppose any style of pvp. No reason to try to validate or spin anything involving it. If the biggest ever carebear faction in Xsyon had a queen, YOU would be it.



At this point in the dead game, you dont really have a choice. We (the pvp centric crowd) have been right all along - You need more/balanced pvp before the game has any point whatsoever. Hell, even your own Tribe has openly declared Victory in Xsyon: http://hopixsyon.enjin.com/home

"In the end, we have accomplished all that there is to accomplish in the current build of Xsyon."

Just do us all a favor - quit flooding useful posts and get outta the way. You've already pioneered your own personal preference for a game that has HUGE potential, ruining it for everyone else. Playing it the way that "YOU" want is obviously detrimental to the game. You are a PERFECT example for my argument because of all of the aforementioned.
Thanks for proving my point. Out of my 2000+ posts you haven't found even ONE where I asked for less PvP then we already have. You went to Hopi site and linked a thread where we talked about griefers...not PvP players, griefers. Are you saying the 2 is the same ? I'm not. I dislike griefers and I do want them to leave the game...but I have nothing against honest PvP players.

I want to play the game the way I like...of course. Just like you do. The difference between us is that I've never asked the devs to alter the game to my playstyle...not like you and many others.

Thank you and DDT proving that I haven't started any threads asking for altering the game to cater more to PvErs. You guys are the ones who want more PvP, not me wanting less.



Now you have your carebear game, and its kicking butt isnt it? How is your game doing? Everyone thoroughly bored yet? Do you have enough people playing the game the way you like it?

DDT, in your clearer moments you yourself admitted that the game lacks PvE-wise a lot, just like PvP-wise. You want me to quote you saying that the game is bad PvE-wise right now too ?

[MrDDT]

Thanks for proving my point. Out of my 2000+ posts you haven't found even ONE where I asked for less PvP then we already have. You went to Hopi site and linked a thread where we talked about griefers...not PvP players, griefers. Are you saying the 2 is the same ? I'm not. I dislike griefers and I do want them to leave the game...but I have nothing against honest PvP players.

I want to play the game the way I like...of course. Just like you do. The difference between us is that I've never asked the devs to alter the game to my playstyle...not like you and many others.

Thank you and DDT proving that I haven't started any threads asking for altering the game to cater more to PvErs. You guys are the ones who want more PvP, not me wanting less.




DDT, in your clearer moments you yourself admitted that the game lacks PvE-wise a lot, just like PvP-wise. You want me to quote you saying that the game is bad PvE-wise right now too ?


You can link me saying that all you want, doesnt change the fact that most of the problems of this game is because having to cater to people like you that dont think through the problems you are asking for. Safe totems anywhere in the game at anytime is causing major problems. Then to fix those problems you come up with even worse ideas, like permissions on baskets.

Yes carebears are not the only reason why the game has issues, its just a major reason for it.
Dont get upset at the PVPers for wanting the things they were told in game to work, and be there. Then when you say things like "Well we dont want the contested zones right now, the carebear totems are taking up too much room as it is" haha. Its too funny, your OWN system is screwing you and now you want MORE safe totem area, thinking it will fix that problem. Again lack of thinking through the details of things you want. You wont even be happy with the new safe totem areas if they were to give it to you, because it doesnt fix the problem. You are treating a symptom and not the problem. Problem is that safe totems cant be removed and they dont decay.
Fix the problem, dont treat with adding more safe totem areas when that is already the problem.
Contested totem areas will fix WAY more issues than you getting some safe totem areas.
Yes I know then you will say "Well lets split it in 1/2 thats fair" haha who cares about "fair" I care about whats best for the game. Plus I dont see how its "fair" at all when you already have 100% of the map which is 2x bigger than the new zones coming into the game. Great now you going to say something like "well I only give in a 15m x 15m so right now I only have safe totems in .00017% of the map" or some crap. Which again, makes no sense because its not ONLY you that is breaking the game. Its all the totems that are around that people cant do crap about, its the people that grief using these safe totems, and special systems you are asking for.

So you havnt started any threads, I dont see how that proves any point you are making. Should link posts about how you want 2 servers because you cant deal with PVP?

[Jadzia]

So you havnt started any threads, I dont see how that proves any point you are making. Should link posts about how you want 2 servers because you cant deal with PVP?
Yes. Please do. A post where I say I can't deal with the current PvP or the one the devs plan...the current one, not the one you or any other players want to be implemented.

Try to be objective. I said we don't need contested totem areas now because the contest system is not in place yet. Doesn't this make sense ?
If we can't contest, how exactly can an area be contested ?

Totem decay is the solution that will solve the problem of abandoned tribe area. Have you ever tried to put yourself into Jordi's shoes ? He wants a totem decay which lasts for like 6-9 months...which is extremely long imo. He wants this so that he can encourage players who have left to come back to the game. Now you say he will just let you to destroy anyone's totem who left the game for 2 weeks ? Seriously ?


Dont get upset at the PVPers for wanting the things they were told in game to work
I don't. I hope they will get a good combat system (well PvEers too), I hope they will fix the looting bugs, and I hope one day we will have a nice tribal warfare system. This is what they were promised. I want all of this too. I just want it to be optional...as it is promised.

[Mactavendish]

It seem like you folks ( INCLUDING me ) don't remember very well or very long.

Why are you even responding to players that present a face that says they support the game, all the while they blast the choices and decisions the developers make because those decisions have not giving them the game they want. Instead of working WITH what they have and make a go if it, like small children, they have been trowing a non-stop fit ever since.

Giving them any attention, even bad and hostile attention is what players like this want.

( and yes I an doing it with this post, but it's for a good purpose )

They are no more than trolls and do NOT represent more then a fraction of a percent of playing customers. Shoot, most of them do not even play anymore.

So the BIG question we need to ask ourselves, is why are we listening to anything they say or give them any fuel by responding directly to them? If you do, they will only do what what they always do, bait you into an argument, so they can spin it around and hopefully drive off more players...

What such players say in not anywhere as important as what they do. Their intent is displayed by their actions. To drive away player in retaliation for not getting the griefer's paradise they were looking for.

So what one of them is helping new players now... well after they have driven off many others by the incessant whining.

Wait for it... next posts will be all about how much they have helped the game and how I am crying and need a diaper or some such nonsense.

I totally want to build fortifications and defend our area from raiders and pk'rs, I completely want to see them reduce resources DRASTICALLY and make rare items only be on contested lands and hard to aquire. I don't care one itty bitty bit about getting killed by a pk'r.

My goal is to be ready to protect our area and stand on my fortified gate and laugh at them.


I have a strong feeling that when this game is in full swing, such players will all slink away.


SO... My suggestion is... put them on ignore and stop responding to them whatsoever.
Give them NO attention at all.. and don't get baited by them .. after all they are masters at it.

[MrDDT]

Yes. Please do. A post where I say I can't deal with the current PvP or the one the devs plan...the current one, not the one you or any other players want to be implemented.

Try to be objective. I said we don't need contested totem areas now because the contest system is not in place yet. Doesn't this make sense ?
If we can't contest, how exactly can an area be contested ?

Totem decay is the solution that will solve the problem of abandoned tribe area. Have you ever tried to put yourself into Jordi's shoes ? He wants a totem decay which lasts for like 6-9 months...which is extremely long imo. He wants this so that he can encourage players who have left to come back to the game. Now you say he will just let you to destroy anyone's totem who left the game for 2 weeks ? Seriously ?


I don't. I hope they will get a good combat system (well PvEers too), I hope they will fix the looting bugs, and I hope one day we will have a nice tribal warfare system. This is what they were promised. I want all of this too. I just want it to be optional...as it is promised.


The "current" one is the what it was changed to because of carebears crying. So of course you wont post that you dont like it how it is NOW because this is the carebear version of what was promised before.

I would love to show you all the changes they made, but sadly they closed those forums, and the ones on these new forums have been deleted since the change, or places you cant access.
That's how it works when they change it to something.

I try to put myself in the devs shoes all the time, which is why I come up with ideas that are well thought out, and not a knee jerk reaction to someone crying on the forums, or in an email. I would discuss this with people, and come up with good ideas, and think it through.
Instead of coming up with ideas like "Lets make more safe areas to fix the problem with too many safe totems" haha, its just so funny even me saying that. It cracks me up that, someone can come up with that as a solution to the problem.

Who cares if contested totems are able to be taken yet or not. So you plan on pushing that back because a simple system of not able to take a totem? Haha, that can take really a few mins of coding to fix. Just give a totem some HP like a mob.
Is it perfect? No of course not, but its much better than adding 50 new zones, for safe totem areas with all the same problems as we currently have, thinking that will fix it.

You also think its perfectly fine to allow rare resources in areas where people can put safe totems. I guess you see no problem with this. Oh right, "But dont place it RIGHT on top of them" like thats really going to help all that much.

Combat system is only a very very minor part of what PVPers are looking for in this game, and were told they would have.
They were told REMOVAL OF SAFE AREAS AFTER PRELUDE. Which is 100% changed now to "We will add a system to where people can switch to PVP if they want".

I dont see where carebears were promised a great PVE game, sadly I never saw that. I did see some stuff, like breeding, and animal taming. Which really even if put in the game now, I dont think would help PVEers be happy either. Heck breeding IS in the game. Look how many people are flocking back to the game because of breeding? Oh wait. My bad. Haha

Again another case of "We want this" but really you didnt think it through and now that you have what you want, and its not helping.


It seem like you folks ( INCLUDING me ) don't remember very well or very long.

Why are you even responding to players that present a face that says they support the game, all the while they blast the choices and decisions the developers make because those decisions have not giving them the game they want. Instead of working WITH what they have and make a go if it, like small children, they have been trowing a non-stop fit ever since.

Giving them any attention, even bad and hostile attention is what players like this want.

( and yes I an doing it with this post, but it's for a good purpose )

They are no more than trolls and do NOT represent more then a fraction of a percent of playing customers. Shoot, most of them do not even play anymore.

So the BIG question we need to ask ourselves, is why are we listening to anything they say or give them any fuel by responding directly to them? If you do, they will only do what what they always do, bait you into an argument, so they can spin it around and hopefully drive off more players...

What such players say in not anywhere as important as what they do. Their intent is displayed by their actions. To drive away player in retaliation for not getting the griefer's paradise they were looking for.

So what one of them is helping new players now... well after they have driven off many others by the incessant whining.

Wait for it... next posts will be all about how much they have helped the game and how I am crying and need a diaper or some such nonsense.

I totally want to build fortifications and defend our area from raiders and pk'rs, I completely want to see them reduce resources DRASTICALLY and make rare items only be on contested lands and hard to aquire. I don't care one itty bitty bit about getting killed by a pk'r.

My goal is to be ready to protect our area and stand on my fortified gate and laugh at them.


I have a strong feeling that when this game is in full swing, such players will all slink away.


SO... My suggestion is... put them on ignore and stop responding to them whatsoever.
Give them NO attention at all.. and don't get baited by them .. after all they are masters at it.



I had to reread this a few times because at first I thought you were talking about PVPers ignoring the carebears, because your thoughts of the game are perfectly in line with PVPers haha.

[NorCalGooey]

Jordi did say safe zones would be in for the EARLY prelude. However, did he specify whether or not it would be a forced or optional removal of safe zones? Back a few+ months ago whenever he was talking about that

[Jadzia]

Jordi did say safe zones would be in for the EARLY prelude. However, did he specify whether or not it would be a forced or optional removal of safe zones? Back a few+ months ago whenever he was talking about that

Never. And he said that we will be able to attack other tribes' area, and take over their totem...but never said that it would be FFA or opt-out.He simply never gave any details about it.

@Mactavendish:
I agree with a lot of what you said. The best would be to ignore these players and posts. The problem with it that they are very vocal on forums and might make the developers think that they represent the playerbase. To avoid this false impression I do believe that we have to make our voice heard.

[MrDDT]

Never. And he said that we will be able to attack other tribes' area, and take over their totem...but never said that it would be FFA or opt-out.He simply never gave any details about it.

@Mactavendish:
I agree with a lot of what you said. The best would be to ignore these players and posts. The problem with it that they are very vocal on forums and might make the developers think that they represent the playerbase. To avoid this false impression I do believe that we have to make our voice heard.


He said that safe zones would be removed after prelude. Then it was changed to "We will allow people to pick a war tribe if they want". I still see no reason why anyone would pick a war tribe. What would be the reason?

Right back at you Jadzia. Carebears have changed this game for the worse and its had a major effect on the state the game is in now. They will never see it though. No matter how bored they get, or how bad the server pop is. It wont be because of their lack of seeing a problem and coming up with well thought out ideas.

"Lets have more safe totem area, because what we have now is too full of safe totems that no one uses" haha. I love it.

[Jadzia]

The "current" one is the what it was changed to because of carebears crying. So of course you wont post that you dont like it how it is NOW because this is the carebear version of what was promised before.
Safe zones were always promised for Prelude, till we can build up walls and gates. We are still in Prelude, very early Prelude, so this is the exact version they promised...nothing has changed. Well one thing has, the alignment system is not implemented....the promised PK penalties are not in place. Still none of us crying about it, though it was a very strong feature of the game.

You keep saying that things has changed. This is simply not true. There is only 1 thing that is in plan to be changed...Xsyon said earlier that after Prelude magical safe zones will be replaced with walls and gates. Since they provide the same level of safety I don't see how is that such a big change...its a logical decision to help new players and to help social interactions.

You equal the removal of safe zones with forced warfare system...which is a huge misunderstanding. If my walls and gates can't be destroyed then I'm just as safe behind them then I would be in a magical safe zone. And Xsyon has never ever said that sieges will be FFA. You know this very well.

[Drevar]

Wow, Jadzia. From the sound of it, Jordi should be paying us as members of the dev team, since we are so obviously personally responsible for the current development path of the game. "smirk"

Or maybe we should sue Notorious for copyright infringement, since they are stealing all our ideas and none of them are they're own.... :p

[Jadzia]

Wow, Jadzia. From the sound of it, Jordi should be paying us as members of the dev team, since we are so obviously personally responsible for the current development path of the game. "smirk"

Or maybe we should sue Notorious for copyright infringement, since he stealing all our ideas and none of them are his own.... :pppp

I don't get you, did I say anything like we were part of the development team ?
My point is that let them implement what they plan to and see if it works.

[NorCalGooey]

Safe zones were always promised for Prelude, till we can build up walls and gates. We are still in Prelude, very early Prelude, so this is the exact version they promised...nothing has changed. Well one thing has, the alignment system is not implemented....the promised PK penalties are not in place. Still none of us crying about it, though it was a very strong feature of the game.

You keep saying that things has changed. This is simply not true. There is only 1 thing that is in plan to be changed...Xsyon said earlier that after Prelude magical safe zones will be replaced with walls and gates. Since they provide the same level of safety I don't see how is that such a big change...its a logical decision to help new players and to help social interactions.

You equal the removal of safe zones with forced warfare system...which is a huge misunderstanding. If my walls and gates can't be destroyed then I'm just as safe behind them then I would be in a magical safe zone. And Xsyon has never ever said that sieges will be FFA. You know this very well.

Our 45 man tribe has been ready for gates for months now and hardly anyone plays. I think it would be safe for them to remove safe zones two weeks after patching gates live. But really Jadzia without the PvP, do we just craft and build all this stuff for aeshetic value? Yes we do right now (the only value of any items if for PvP benefits...armor, weps...tools that make armor and weps...but the PvP is lacking so what is the value in that? But there should be more than just PvP benefiting items. Like perhaps +crafting items, that make you a higher quality crafter etc.) ...but I'm one of the rare few who can stand doing that sort of thing. and that's not to say I dont' enjoy the other aspect of the game just as much or more even, depending on what I want most that day. Then maybe after a few days of PvP, i'll want nothing more than to spend hours building the city and visa versa. Right now we don't even have that option.

I for one would would love to see NPC guards if they could pull it off right. Only because it would give people something to do if say, t hey didn't want to run 3 zones to the nearest active large tribe and fight with them, they could run to a smaller yet closer tribe and fight with the NPC guards if no one was online. It's just right now there is no PvP option at all. I literally and go and forage and scavenge inside DDTs base to try and provoke them I'm so bored. But other days it's okay, and I can get on Appollo and just build. But the variety really isn't there.

[Drevar]

Appears the sarcasm meter needs some adjusting...LOL. It was a comment on how DDT and others are complaining how you and some others are basically designing (and ruining) the game, and as such should be paid as developers.

Next time I'll include 24 point bold /sarcasm tags.

[Book]

NorCal, I don't think anyone is suggesting there should be no pvp in the game. The question is whether after a long day, I just want to chill out in world a bit... do I have that right? Or do I have to constantly play with the kid who wants to fight?

I'm a little brother, I tormented my older brother to play with me all the time as a kid... I know how annoying it can be, and don't want to go through it ;)

DDT, you know the PVE side isn't as fully implemented to claim it's what anyone wants just yet. Much is already cool, but much is to come as well. For example comfort, thirst and hunger as just one example. Doesn't sound very genuine to claim the current state of affairs proves anything. Well, it does prove there's a heck of a lot of potential and plenty reason to keep an eye on things and remain interested.

Also, as someone who likes to say he's one of very few who think things through... why is it you still fail to see the proper causality when it comes to the existence of safe zones? It's fine to stomp your foot and say others are crying, though it's not remotely going to help anything. Better solution would be to think it through completely to the initial cause and address that.

Walls and gates are offered as a solution if people are so intent on not having safe zones... but then it's immediately a question of when will folks be able to break through that.

I'm somewhat hopeful that siege mechanics will take long enough, with comfort, hunger and thirst requiring enough investment to maintain the siege, that it won't be worth it to bother homesteads... much like the level of thought and planning that would go into a siege to begin with.

Mac, I get where you're coming from. On the other hand... much of the focus on combat at the moment is apparently because that's the feedback devs supposedly got about why people are leaving. I know of many who left for other reasons, but simply didn't complain on their way out. Remaining silent isn't going to necessarily help. I've been in other games I enjoyed very much, but stayed silent hoping the dev team would know better than to listen to a very vocal minority as opposed to understanding the silent majority. It didn't work out that way, and those games were ruined. Fine with me if things don't work out to my preferences here, totally cool, but I'd rather know I did speak up.

[Jadzia]

Appears the sarcasm meter needs some adjusting...LOL. It was a comment on how DDT and others are complaining how you and some others are basically designing (and ruining) the game, and as such should be paid as developers.

Next time I'll include 24 point bold /sarcasm tags.

Oh !! Sorry, lol. Sometimes its hard to recognize sarcasm on the forums :)


Our 45 man tribe has been ready for gates for months now and hardly anyone plays. I think it would be safe for them to remove safe zones two weeks after patching gates live. But really Jadzia without the PvP, do we just craft and build all this stuff for aeshetic value? Yes we do right now (the only value of any items if for PvP benefits...armor, weps...tools that make armor and weps...but the PvP is lacking so what is the value in that? But there should be more than just PvP benefiting items. Like perhaps +crafting items, that make you a higher quality crafter etc.) ...but I'm one of the rare few who can stand doing that sort of thing. and that's not to say I dont' enjoy the other aspect of the game just as much or more even, depending on what I want most that day. Then maybe after a few days of PvP, i'll want nothing more than to spend hours building the city and visa versa. Right now we don't even have that option.
I agree with you that PvP is lacking a lot ....lacking opportunities, purpose and fun. Its hardly usable due to combat problems and desync.
Buildings need to have a purpose...even if you could siege my camp then what ? You get a tent which has no use at all ? The game's problem is not only the lack of PvP...but the lack of buildings having an actual use. But they are working on it so I hope it will change soon.
I hope you will find people in the game to fight...but believe me the solution is not to force me into it. I can assure you that wouldn't provide too much fun for you, neither for me.

[NorCalGooey]

Oh !! Sorry, lol. Sometimes its hard to recognize sarcasm on the forums :)


I agree with you that PvP is lacking a lot ....lacking opportunities, purpose and fun. Its hardly usable due to combat problems and desync.
Buildings need to have a purpose...even if you could siege my camp then what ? You get a tent which has no use at all ? The game's problem is not only the lack of PvP...but the lack of buildings having an actual use. But they are working on it so I hope it will change soon.
I hope you will find people in the game to fight...but believe me the solution is not to force me into it. I can assure you that wouldn't provide too much fun for you, neither for me.

No, you see, you won't be forced to attack others. Just forced to defend yourself...and rarely even then. You'd have to piss off some people quite a bit and have a bunch of them coming knocking at your gates with battering rams. I think I would really like a pre siege timer like darkfall. That way we won't have to add in NPCs to defend against a sneaky siege attack when no one is on

I'm not huge into warfare or PKing on the offensive. I certainly would enjoy fighting in the city we built though. I would not mind at all if someone came to attack us, that's there choice. They will have to suffer the consequences of horrible reputation, which is far worse than the benefit of looting a few items or knocking down a few walls. I think we would only go on the offensive after we have been forced onto the defensive. But even then it's not certain. Depends on if we think we can win the war or not :)

I don't see why you think you should get your own safe zone (or anyone). The only way I would be okay with someone having a safe zone is if that meant they could not attack others in their non safe zones....even then...just makes th e game so boring


and I think the whole point of the sieging is the fun and territory control. they don't care about your tent, they care about your land. :) but that's why i think the capital totem (w/e you want to call it, what we have now) should have no capture abilities, but also no safe zone...meaning full loot and killing (perhaps no destruction of tents...only gates) that way you at least know you will always have a home (your items wont be safe, but if they were, no high risk pvp could exist, due to safe zone ALT ACCOUNT tribes where PVP tribes would store there valuables)

then expansion totems = 100% real life rules, totem capture, everything destructible, stone buildings by siege, wood buildings can be torched, etc.

[Jadzia]

I don't see why you think you should get your own safe zone (or anyone). The only way I would be okay with someone having a safe zone is if that meant they could not attack others in their non safe zones....
Yes of course. This is how they plan it.


and I think the whole point of the sieging is the fun and territory control. they don't care about your tent, they care about your land. but that's why i think the capital totem (w/e you want to call it, what we have now) should have no capture abilities, but also no safe zone...meaning full loot and killing (perhaps no destruction of tents...only gates)
Ok so let's imagine there is no safe zone for capital totems, but no capture abilities either. So I can build walls and gates and be just as safe inside as I am now. How is that such a huge difference ? I really think that it is the exactly same. I'm safe, with one system or the other one.

[Mactavendish]

Book, I appreciate what you say, but think I need to state again that I believe this game has to have pvp to even work.

I have always maintained a different perspective here than most, in that I don't participate in direct pvp with other players by doing physical battle with them.

I am the other side of the pvp coin.

What this means is I fully plan on getting the best and rare resources, by exploiting the resources where they are found regardless of the risk, and then retreating to our heavily fortified village to trade these items to others. This is where the excitement for me comes in. succeeding against organized players trying to stop me, but all done without direct pvp on my part.

I never run around naked, I always have gear to loot and will avoid direct conflict when I can, and will not cry when looted by some scared group of naked children. I say scared because they are naked because they are scared of losing anything at all... they run in groups because they are scared of losing a battle ( and thus losing a bit of face ). I have no such fear. I mean really. The only thing they can do is kill my toon and loot my stuff. That only gives me more to try and acquire or replace. and every time I succeed against such forces, I have proven to myself that I am doing much better than them.

I don't care about safe zones. I am happy they will have pvp in this game, and as the box gets filled with sand, I am looking forward to the excitement that pvp will bring to the game I signed up here to play.

My voice says well done so far to jordi and crew and keep going. I already know we will go through a down period and that they will get the game where it needs to be and advertise and we will have plenty of players to interact with.

In the mean time I will not waste any time with folks not looking at the big picture. ( and yeah, what that means is subjective to me and probably does not match the more vocal folks here but *shrugs* Meh )

Another thought...

Even according to what the front page says, the game could develop into one faction trying to restore civilization while another tries to tear it down. Jordi wants both to exist here and I am totally fine with that. I just plan on being a restorer and re-builder not a destroyer.

[MrDDT]

Safe zones were always promised for Prelude, till we can build up walls and gates. We are still in Prelude, very early Prelude, so this is the exact version they promised...nothing has changed. Well one thing has, the alignment system is not implemented....the promised PK penalties are not in place. Still none of us crying about it, though it was a very strong feature of the game.

You keep saying that things has changed. This is simply not true. There is only 1 thing that is in plan to be changed...Xsyon said earlier that after Prelude magical safe zones will be replaced with walls and gates. Since they provide the same level of safety I don't see how is that such a big change...its a logical decision to help new players and to help social interactions.

You equal the removal of safe zones with forced warfare system...which is a huge misunderstanding. If my walls and gates can't be destroyed then I'm just as safe behind them then I would be in a magical safe zone. And Xsyon has never ever said that sieges will be FFA. You know this very well.

Tons of things have changed you are nuts. What about 2 servers? What about EARLY PRELUDE WOULD REMOVE SAFE ZONES?
Im sorry that you cant see it, and that you forgot what the game was about since day 1. But these all have changed. Heck even the features have changed. How are those resource controls?
If you think people are crying over gates vs safe zones then clearly you still missing the point of all the PVPers.
PVPers dont care there are a few safe areas in the game. They care that the safe areas are able to control resources ANYWHERE on the map AT any time. Full looting is NOT in the game. They care that these stupid private bins are littering the world, and that people can do whatever they want and there is NOTHING a PVPer can do other than move or deal with it.

Safe zones should be limited to special areas, OR give PVPers zones where we can go and have contested areas. We are not asking for 100% of the map you and the carebears are. PVPers are asking for DIFFICULTY VS REWARD!!!

When PVE gets more difficult than PVP, then they should be rewarded more, until then PVP is as far as I know one of the hardest things. When you consider losing your whole totem and all that time, fighting vs the best tactics, then the reward should be great.
Right now killing a bear, and avoiding the 1 PVPer in the whole game isnt very difficult.

Im done talking to you about this.

I should come wall your totem in, and see what you think about your safe totem area then. The system is freaking bad in SOOOO many ways.

Added after 7 minutes:




DDT, you know the PVE side isn't as fully implemented to claim it's what anyone wants just yet. Much is already cool, but much is to come as well. For example comfort, thirst and hunger as just one example. Doesn't sound very genuine to claim the current state of affairs proves anything. Well, it does prove there's a heck of a lot of potential and plenty reason to keep an eye on things and remain interested.

Also, as someone who likes to say he's one of very few who think things through... why is it you still fail to see the proper causality when it comes to the existence of safe zones? It's fine to stomp your foot and say others are crying, though it's not remotely going to help anything. Better solution would be to think it through completely to the initial cause and address that.

Walls and gates are offered as a solution if people are so intent on not having safe zones... but then it's immediately a question of when will folks be able to break through that.

I'm somewhat hopeful that siege mechanics will take long enough, with comfort, hunger and thirst requiring enough investment to maintain the siege, that it won't be worth it to bother homesteads... much like the level of thought and planning that would go into a siege to begin with.

.

Sorry, hunger thirst are in the game. Comfort has nothing to do with PVE.

Book, are you trying to say Ive not thought through this and posted many ideas on how to change the system? But you get people like Jadzia that think "We need more safe areas to fix the problem with too many safe totems" They come in with knee jerk ways of fixing something which only hurt it more, and make no sense.
I post a great system for both sides to be more than happy with what would be put into it, and the carebears want it all. "Oh if rare resources are in contested areas only then we are forced into those areas as carebears" then they cry "Well if they going to do something like that we cant agree on anything and should have 2 servers".

They wont give 1" to try to fix the game. Worst part like I said, is that they think they want all these safety options with resources inside their safety bubble. Then when econ sucks, people are bored and everyone has 100 in every skill. They are like "Well we need more stuff to do". Its like really? Didnt we just say that your bad idea of doing all that safetly crap was killing the game?


I will say it again, EVERY AREA SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO BE TAKEN. THERE NEEDS TO BE SAFE ZONES. I hope that is clear. Now moving on from that point. Having a safe zone in every part of the map at anytime is the problem with the system.


No, you see, you won't be forced to attack others. Just forced to defend yourself...and rarely even then. You'd have to piss off some people quite a bit and have a bunch of them coming knocking at your gates with battering rams. I think I would really like a pre siege timer like darkfall. That way we won't have to add in NPCs to defend against a sneaky siege attack when no one is on


Dont you understand she wants safe zones to be able to piss anyone off she wants and still be able to stick her tongue out and say "nan nah a booboo you cant hurt me". She wants all the resources at her finger tips and control them forever, without anyone stopping her in anyway. Then when she chooses to PVP, it will be on her terms and she will risk nothing.

[JCatano]

Safe zones were always promised for Prelude, till we can build up walls and gates. We are still in Prelude, very early Prelude, so this is the exact version they promised...nothing has changed. Well one thing has, the alignment system is not implemented....the promised PK penalties are not in place. Still none of us crying about it, though it was a very strong feature of the game.

You keep saying that things has changed. This is simply not true. There is only 1 thing that is in plan to be changed...Xsyon said earlier that after Prelude magical safe zones will be replaced with walls and gates. Since they provide the same level of safety I don't see how is that such a big change...its a logical decision to help new players and to help social interactions.

You equal the removal of safe zones with forced warfare system...which is a huge misunderstanding. If my walls and gates can't be destroyed then I'm just as safe behind them then I would be in a magical safe zone. And Xsyon has never ever said that sieges will be FFA. You know this very well.

Keithstone asks:

Can architecture structures be damaged by other players at any time?

As the game evolves yes. This won't be in for a while as towns are planned as safe zones in the Prelude, though I am considered tribes to allow to choose if they want to be warring tribes during the Prelude. Warring tribes will be able to attack each other.


Implying consentual tribe area warfare during Prelude, and back to the original idea of simply removing safe zones after that time period. Nowhere in there does it say that walls and gates would mean a "safe zone". So, yes... It has changed.

[Jadzia]

Nowhere in there does it say that walls and gates would mean a "safe zone".
True. And where does it say it means 'no safe zone' ? This is what I said. Jordi didn't give any details. He didn't say this neither he said that. So you can't say it has changed...because it wasn't specified. It could have meant both, the only way to know it for sure was to ask about it from support or FAQ question.

[MrDDT]

True. And where does it say it means 'no safe zone' ? This is what I said. Jordi didn't give any details. He didn't say this neither he said that. So you can't say it has changed...because it wasn't specified. It could have meant both, the only way to know it for sure was to ask about it from support or FAQ question.


He said safe zones would be removed after prelude.
That has now changed to "We will allow tribes to switch to a warring tribe during prelude if they want".

Again, cant post links because its on the old forums AND, many threads on these forums are not able to be seen by you, or are deleted AKA moved into a private forum.

[Jadzia]

He said safe zones would be removed after prelude.
That has now changed to "We will allow tribes to switch to a warring tribe during prelude if they want".

Again, cant post links because its on the old forums AND, many threads on these forums are not able to be seen by you, or are deleted AKA moved into a private forum.
He said safe zones will be replaced by walls and gates.

Again, you are confusing safe zones with cities being siegeable. These are 2 very different things. If I let you come into my city inside my walls and gates and you can kill me that doesn't mean AT ALL that these walls and gates can be destroyed by you.

[JCatano]

True. And where does it say it means 'no safe zone' ? This is what I said. Jordi didn't give any details. He didn't say this neither he said that. So you can't say it has changed...because it wasn't specified. It could have meant both, the only way to know it for sure was to ask about it from support or FAQ question.

"This won't be in for a while as towns are planned as safe zones in the Prelude, ..."

You know very well that he stated many times in the past that safety would turned off after Prelude. When you relate the mechanic of being allowed to damage structures at any time with the removal of safe zones after Prelude... Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, unless everyone here is one except you.

There would be no need to remove safe zones if walls and gates created the same, exact thing...

[MrDDT]

He said safe zones will be replaced by walls and gates.

Again, you are confusing safe zones with cities being siegeable. These are 2 very different things. If I let you come into my city inside my walls and gates and you can kill me that doesn't mean AT ALL that these walls and gates can be destroyed by you.

Im not confusing anything. You are the one trying to say that he didnt say that he was removing safe zones after prelude, and that nothing has changed. Im here pointing out how false that is.

[Book]

"This won't be in for a while as towns are planned as safe zones in the Prelude, ..."

You know very well that he stated many times in the past that safety would turned off after Prelude. When you relate the mechanic of being allowed to damage structures at any time with the removal of safe zones after Prelude... Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, unless everyone here is one except you.

There would be no need to remove safe zones if walls and gates created the same, exact thing...

I can see your point J but there is a difference any way you look at it.

Quick example. The place I settled is surrounded by a high cliff on three sides. There was a tiny junkpile in there, water down the hill, mist nearby, peaceful... great spot.
I did put some walls up and such.


Once safe zones are removed and walls / gates are the only form of protection, spots like mine will not be defended since anyone can drop from above. May or may not be a problem, I don't really invite all that much reason to kill me in game.

But you see my point. Safe zones to allow the construction of defensible locations during Prelude, and then dependence on those defensible locations thereafter. Those not there during prelude, or who didn't build with defense in mind, would be in trouble. Even if walls were not destructible, this is very different from a "poof the magic safe zone" scenario. Requires greater architectural / strategic prowess.
********************
@DDT
the effects of hunger and thirst are so negligeable, they may as well not be there at the moment. Much more can be done with this from a survival standpoint.

Could be that comfort is meant to be a PvP mechanic only with absolutely no other reason for existing. That would seal the deal for me to stay away as I would consider that a very sad waste of a good potential mechanic. I don't believe that to be the case... but I'm sure you'll tell me. Thanks.

[JCatano]

I can see your point J but there is a difference any way you look at it.

Quick example. The place I settled is surrounded by a high cliff on three sides. There was a tiny junkpile in there, water down the hill, mist nearby, peaceful... great spot.
I did put some walls up and such.


Once safe zones are removed and walls / gates are the only form of protection, spots like mine will not be defended since anyone can drop from above. May or may not be a problem, I don't really invite all that much reason to kill me in game.

But you see my point. Safe zones to allow the construction of defensible locations during Prelude, and then dependence on those defensible locations thereafter. Those not there during prelude, or who didn't build with defense in mind, would be in trouble. Even if walls were not destructible, this is very different from a "poof the magic safe zone" scenario. Requires greater architectural / strategic prowess.
********************
@DDT
the effects of hunger and thirst are so negligeable, they may as well not be there at the moment. Much more can be done with this from a survival standpoint.

Could be that comfort is meant to be a PvP mechanic only with absolutely no other reason for existing. That would seal the deal for me to stay away as I would consider that a very sad waste of a good potential mechanic. I don't believe that to be the case... but I'm sure you'll tell me. Thanks.

Being dropped into from above would be a location-choice flaw. Tab that onto the people choosing those spots. I didn't see many that did, anyway.

Coming in after Prelude doesn't negate anyone from getting walls up, especially when talking about some sticks and twine.

My point is that Jordi had always said: "Safe zones will be removed after Prelude."

Supported by the fact that he said structures could be damaged at any time with exception to during Prelude, and we can all see how things have changed. Anyone trying to say that spectrum of vision hasn't been changed is misinformed or just not willing to admit it for <insert reason>.

If Jordi wasn't smart enough to realize that removing safety zones after Prelude, but allowing walls/gates top keep a tribe 100% safe aren't the same thing, then... Ouch. Good luck. I assume he's a brighter than that, hence why I took those quotes at face value.

[Book]

Yup, absolutely, being open from above is a flaw from a defensible standpoint. Was just saying that in my mind, that makes a difference.

I can't claim to know whether Jordi changed his mind or not, happy to take your word for it, don't think that part matters to me all that much.

However, would imagine that if Jordi did change his mind, he saw good business reason to do so. A lot of people here feel they're experts on game design but seeing as how he's the one actually doing it, kinda have to think he's got a notion as to where he's headed don't you think?

Honestly, if he happens to announce he's changed his mind to the other direction, you won't see me here complaining about it. I'll assume he felt that was the best way for his investment to pan out and I would sincerely hope that it would. Not terribly complicated.

[Jadzia]

"This won't be in for a while as towns are planned as safe zones in the Prelude, ..."

You know very well that he stated many times in the past that safety would turned off after Prelude. When you relate the mechanic of being allowed to damage structures at any time with the removal of safe zones after Prelude... Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, unless everyone here is one except you.

There would be no need to remove safe zones if walls and gates created the same, exact thing...

A genius to figure it out...then you have to realize that all of these "genius' were wrong. You related the mechanic of destroying buildings with the removal of safe zones...and you were wrong. I didn't want to read more into it than it was there...so I tried not to assume anything only to read what was written. And when I saw that it could mean 2 very different things I asked which is the correct interpretation...and I got the answer. And this answer hasn't changed even a bit during the whole last year.

The plans haven't changed. Some of you just assumed the wrong thing. I tried to warn you so many times lol....all I got in return was flaming. You really can't tell that I didn't point it out several times that warfare can very well be consensual :)

I guess he wanted to change the safe zones to walls to give purpose to build walls and to be more realistic.


Can architecture structures be damaged by other players at any time?

As the game evolves yes. This won't be in for a while as towns are planned as safe zones in the Prelude
Keith asked the wrong question here. His question could be meant as he was asking if the mechanic would be there to destroy things.
Its like asking 'Can this door be opened by players anytime ?' and when they say yes, you think that all the players will be forced to open the door, although they only meant that they will implement a doorhandle.

He should have asked "Can every players' structures be damaged by anyone by anytime even if the owner doesn't want to participate in war ?"
He would have got the correct answer then.
I have seen this question being asked by 6 different person, in 6 different time. The answer was always the same: "No".

[MrDDT]

Honestly, if he happens to announce he's changed his mind to the other direction, you won't see me here complaining about it. I'll assume he felt that was the best way for his investment to pan out and I would sincerely hope that it would. Not terribly complicated.

A lot of people are no longer here complaining about it. They just simply left the game and likely will never look at this carebear version of it.
Same can be said for the other side, that saw the features back in 2009 and said "Oh this isnt anything like wow, next".

Point is that, once people have bought the game, and are following it, paying monthly dues, only to have the vision change, is very upsetting. Then others to say "Well its always been that way" is very upsetting to see how clearly they are lying and driven by their own wants.

If people were to say "Well its changed deal with it" I can understand that. Save for one fact. Its changed, and not even THEY like it now. Sure you might have one or 2 people still playing the game like Jadzia who love the current system. But clearly thats not going to work for Xsyon as a whole, as you can see due to the lack of people playing.

Added after 7 minutes:


A genius to figure it out...then you have to realize that all of these "genius' were wrong. You related the mechanic of destroying buildings with the removal of safe zones...and you were wrong.

We took the statement that "Safe zones would be removed after prelude" to mean, it would be removed. Not meaning, it may be removed, or could be removed. But WILL be removed.



"Can every players' structures be damaged by anyone by anytime even if the owner doesn't want to participate in war ?"

Because that question doesnt answer ask it either.

I would HOPE that answer is "No" to that one also. I would hope they had a system like Shadowbane, or Darkfall, or many other PVP games had in place to prevent griefing and other things.

So, please ask the question again, and try to word it better, because your question also fails.

Problem was again IT HAS CHANGED. You fail to understand that, people like you are the major cause of it, because PVPers didnt cry about the system. Just like you are not crying about the system now.

[joexxxz]

Liike I said, Jadzia dont care about the game, she just want to prove to people that she can out argue everyone of you. Thats all. ;)

[Jadzia]

We took the statement that "Safe zones would be removed after prelude" to mean, it would be removed. Not meaning, it may be removed, or could be removed. But WILL be removed.

Because that question doesnt answer ask it either.

I would HOPE that answer is "No" to that one also. I would hope they had a system like Shadowbane, or Darkfall, or many other PVP games had in place to prevent griefing and other things.

So, please ask the question again, and try to word it better, because your question also fails.

Problem was again IT HAS CHANGED. You fail to understand that, people like you are the major cause of it, because PVPers didnt cry about the system. Just like you are not crying about the system now.
I searched the exact question that a friend of mine asked. I hope you find it a properly worded one:
2. What will happen after Prelude ? Will every tribe and solo player be forced to give up the safe zone of their area, or will it be optional ?
Will players and tribes be able to opt out of wars and sieges ?

The answer was: it will be optional.
It hasn't changed.

[JCatano]

All you got was a change of heart from him.

- Safe zones removed after Prelude when tribes can defend themselves. (Why use the word "defend" when there would be nothing to defend yourself from because of absolute safety within the walls?)
- Structures can be damaged at any time after Prelude.
- Defense towers in the future.
- The intention for after the Prelude is that tribes keep themselves protected. That's 6-9 months from now at least. Right now isn't the best time for me to enter a big discussion about all this. :-) (PM to me)

That was the original idea.

What he more recently stated:

- Opt-in war for main tribe area.
- Expansion totems for PvP conflict.


Original versus the more recent... Not the same.

Where is your friend's question in the answer thread? I seemed to have missed it.

[MrDDT]

All you got was a change of heart from him.

- Safe zones removed after Prelude when tribes can defend themselves. (Why use the word "defend" when there would be nothing to defend yourself from because of absolute safety within the walls?)
- Structures can be damaged at any time after Prelude.
- Defense towers in the future.
- The intention for after the Prelude is that tribes keep themselves protected. That's 6-9 months from now at least. Right now isn't the best time for me to enter a big discussion about all this. :-) (PM to me)

That was the original idea.

What he more recently stated:

- Opt-in war for main tribe area.
- Expansion totems for PvP conflict.


Original versus the more recent... Not the same.

Where is your friend's question in the answer thread? I seemed to have missed it.


Clearly JC, this is just what we have now. I mean nothing has changed. This was the vision the whole time. I mean don't you see defense towers for PVE? That's what his plans were for, the hordes of zombies attacking bases. DUH!

[JCatano]

Gosh, how could I have missed that. Nevermind! Nothing has changed. Jadzia was sooooo right.

[Jadzia]

All you got was a change of heart from him.

- Safe zones removed after Prelude when tribes can defend themselves. (Why use the word "defend" when there would be nothing to defend yourself from because of absolute safety within the walls?)
- Structures can be damaged at any time after Prelude.
- Defense towers in the future.
- The intention for after the Prelude is that tribes keep themselves protected. That's 6-9 months from now at least. Right now isn't the best time for me to enter a big discussion about all this. :-) (PM to me)

That was the original idea.

What he more recently stated:

- Opt-in war for main tribe area.
- Expansion totems for PvP conflict.


Original versus the more recent... Not the same.

Where is your friend's question in the answer thread? I seemed to have missed it.

Nvm. I can't convince you of something you don't want to believe. Defend and protect...who said all of these can't give 100% protection ? Towers and walls and gates...and you are safe.

The intention for after the Prelude is that tribes keep themselves protected.
Yes, by building walls. How does that mean to you that they won't be protected is beyond me. If I can be killed and my city can be destroyed then it is not protected.

But again, nvm. This is a pointless debate, I just don't like that you keep accusing Xsyon that he changed the core of the game when he didn't. But its not my problem, I'm sure he can talk for himself :)

My friend question was a FAQ question.

[ifireallymust]

A lot of people are no longer here complaining about it. They just simply left the game and likely will never look at this carebear version of it.
Same can be said for the other side, that saw the features back in 2009 and said "Oh this isnt anything like wow, next".

Point is that, once people have bought the game, and are following it, paying monthly dues, only to have the vision change, is very upsetting. Then others to say "Well its always been that way" is very upsetting to see how clearly they are lying and driven by their own wants.

If people were to say "Well its changed deal with it" I can understand that. Save for one fact. Its changed, and not even THEY like it now. Sure you might have one or 2 people still playing the game like Jadzia who love the current system. But clearly thats not going to work for Xsyon as a whole, as you can see due to the lack of people playing.

Added after 7 minutes:



We took the statement that "Safe zones would be removed after prelude" to mean, it would be removed. Not meaning, it may be removed, or could be removed. But WILL be removed.



Because that question doesnt answer ask it either.

I would HOPE that answer is "No" to that one also. I would hope they had a system like Shadowbane, or Darkfall, or many other PVP games had in place to prevent griefing and other things.

So, please ask the question again, and try to word it better, because your question also fails.

Problem was again IT HAS CHANGED. You fail to understand that, people like you are the major cause of it, because PVPers didnt cry about the system. Just like you are not crying about the system now.

MrDDT, you've made some good points throughout, but this isn't one of them. Who is the they that don't like what? Do you think that the reason we are eagerly awaiting updates and the reason some who argued against no safe zones left the game is because of safe zones? Why not because features that have nothing to do with pvp that we know of, like taming and cooking, aren't in yet? What if people are waiting for farming and multi-level housing and other non-pvp content? Do you have any proof that those who said they did not want safe zones removed at launch (which, you may remember, many pvpers were asking for!) actually said, 'Darn, those pvpers were right! I really wish we didn't have safe zones. Oh well, I quit!" I haven't seen anyone change their minds on this issue one way or the other. Maybe I'm wrong. Point me to the post where a safe zone supporter quit and cited safe zones as the reason.

[JCatano]

Nvm. I can't convince you of something you don't want to believe. Defend and protect...who said all of these can't give 100% protection ? Towers and walls and gates...and you are safe.

The intention for after the Prelude is that tribes keep themselves protected.
Yes, by building walls. How does that mean to you that they won't be protected is beyond me. If I can be killed and my city can be destroyed then it is not protected.

But again, nvm. This is a pointless debate, I just don't like that you keep accusing Xsyon that he changed the core of the game when he didn't. But its not my problem, I'm sure he can talk for himself :)

My friend question was a FAQ question.

There is nothing to defend yourself from if you're inside of safety walls... (Exactly what we have now.) Wouldn't need defense towers, either. In other words, there wouldn't be any need to turn safe zones off, because it would be exactly the same situation. Tribes would wall in their entire radius no matter the size.

He changed his mind. No doubt about it. He keeps saying he's going to flow with what the community wants. He did, but it looks like he was mistaken, because Xsyon has about 3 people playing and 10 posting.

KeithStone Asks (5-30-2011):

Are safe zones going to be removed at some point where we need to use walls/gates to keep people out of tribe zones?

Starting with expansion totems, yes. After we see the dynamics that happen when tribes war over expansion we plan to allow tribes to turn off their safe zones permanently to allow them become warring tribes. The option to remain a safe tribe will be in place during the Prelude. The future will depend on how the game evolves and this will be requesting feedback from all players regarding this (through emails and surveys, not just on the forums).


Time to start flowing back to the original vision to see if it helps anything.

Link your friend's question. I'm still missing it.

[MrDDT]

MrDDT, you've made some good points throughout, but this isn't one of them. Who is the they that don't like what? Do you think that the reason we are eagerly awaiting updates and the reason some who argued against no safe zones left the game is because of safe zones? Why not because features that have nothing to do with pvp that we know of, like taming and cooking, aren't in yet? What if people are waiting for farming and multi-level housing and other non-pvp content? Do you have any proof that those who said they did not want safe zones removed at launch (which, you may remember, many pvpers were asking for!) actually said, 'Darn, those pvpers were right! I really wish we didn't have safe zones. Oh well, I quit!" I haven't seen anyone change their minds on this issue one way or the other. Maybe I'm wrong. Point me to the post where a safe zone supporter quit and cited safe zones as the reason.

They didnt say "Darn I wish we didnt have safe zones" they said other things like "Man Im being griefed because people are dropping a totem and terraforming the area around me, and making roads on my junk piles near me". Which is the problem with safe zones, and other safe systems.

[ifireallymust]

They didnt say "Darn I wish we didnt have safe zones" they said other things like "Man Im being griefed because people are dropping a totem and terraforming the area around me, and making roads on my junk piles near me". Which is the problem with safe zones, and other safe systems.

I know that at least one person quit over you chopping down all the trees, but that has nothing to do with safe zones, since you were vulnerable to attack while you were chopping them down, weren't you? I know that the junk pile pavers frustrated and irritated me and caused me to move back onto a junk pile, but that has nothing to do with safe zones, either, since I remember Plague killed the primary culprit while he was out doing it, so obviously he wasn't using safe zones to grief.

Just because people found ways to annoy other players despite the safe zones doesn't mean we'd be better off without them. In fact, it seems we'd be worse off, as annoying other players would be much easier if they had no place to flee to!

Actually, you just made an argument for permadeath, not the removal of safe zones. Although a griefer could reroll with a preorder axe and shovel and go right back to griefing, so maybe not. But maybe you've just made an argument to increase the length of time you have to wait before you drop a totem or rejoin a tribe again? Is that what you're arguing?

It seems that you are making an argument for more consequences for bad behavior. I believe you're going to suggest next that we, the players, should enforce those consequences, and that we cannot do so while safe zones exist, but this isn't true. Everyone leaves their tribal area sometimes. If you don't, you can't very well grief most players, can you?

[MrDDT]

I know that at least one person quit over you chopping down all the trees, but that has nothing to do with safe zones, since you were vulnerable to attack while you were chopping them down, weren't you? I know that the junk pile pavers frustrated and irritated me and caused me to move back onto a junk pile, but that has nothing to do with safe zones, either, since I remember Plague killed the primary culprit while he was out doing it, so obviously he wasn't using safe zones to grief.

Just because people found ways to annoy other players despite the safe zones doesn't mean we'd be better off without them. In fact, it seems we'd be worse off, as annoying other players would be much easier if they had no place to flee to!

Actually, you just made an argument for permadeath, not the removal of safe zones. Although a griefer could reroll with a preorder axe and shovel and go right back to griefing, so maybe not. But maybe you've just made an argument to increase the length of time you have to wait before you drop a totem or rejoin a tribe again? Is that what you're arguing?

It seems that you are making an argument for more consequences for bad behavior. I believe you're going to suggest next that we, the players, should enforce those consequences, and that we cannot do so while safe zones exist, but this isn't true. Everyone leaves their tribal area sometimes. If you don't, you can't very well grief most players, can you?


You understand that "safe zones" are totems right? Think about that for a bit, then you will understand you dont punish people by killing them, you do it in other ways like wiping all their hard work off the face of the world.
Or making it so that people cant trade with them. Just think if there were no safe areas, and everywhere you went you were hunted down like a griefing dog, you are.

[Jadzia]

Link your friend's question. I'm still missing it.
How can I link a question which was asked through the FAQ page more than a year ago ?

[ifireallymust]

You understand that "safe zones" are totems right? Think about that for a bit, then you will understand you dont punish people by killing them, you do it in other ways like wiping all their hard work off the face of the world.
Or making it so that people cant trade with them. Just think if there were no safe areas, and everywhere you went you were hunted down like a griefing dog, you are.

Just think, though, if there were no safe areas, griefing dogs could also hunt me down everywhere I went, every day. Maybe some people would enjoy being hunted like that, but it's really not my thing. Nor do I want to hunt people down and kill them until they quit the game. And before you bring it up, no, I do not want to seek shelter with a large tribe or tribal alliance to prevent being griefed. Again, that's fun for some people, it isn't fun for me.

I already said it before, though. If that's what this game ultimately becomes, I will not leave with any hard feelings. Because I know it's a possibility. Probably not likely to happen, but it could, after Prelude. This game was originally not going to be as solo-friendly as it is now, correct? So I won't complain, I won't cry on the forum, I'll just go play something else, content with the many months I enjoyed Xsyon and regretful that the good times had to end. But I'd prefer it if things turned out otherwise, of course.

[Book]

They didnt say "Darn I wish we didnt have safe zones" they said other things like "Man Im being griefed because people are dropping a totem and terraforming the area around me

Which is something you've threatened to do just today, and have probably done in the past... :rolleyes:


and making roads on my junk piles near me". Which is the problem with safe zones, and other safe systems.

Again, something you have been known to do. :rolleyes:

So... you're out there doing the world a favor by ruining other people's experience just to show it can be ruined?

Brilliant!

Of course, all the while you're on the forums saying all these things are perfectly legit and maybe someone paid you to do it and yadda yadda...

Seems like Jordi's vision has been hijacked, and you'll kill off the hostages until you get what you want.

[JCatano]

How can I link a question which was asked through the FAQ page more than a year ago ?

--------->


I searched the exact question that a friend of mine asked. I hope you find it a properly worded one:

2. What will happen after Prelude ? Will every tribe and solo player be forced to give up the safe zone of their area, or will it be optional ?
Will players and tribes be able to opt out of wars and sieges ?

[Jadzia]

@JCatano:
It was asked through the FAQ page....remember when you could ask questions there, it was emailed to the devs, and they replied to it ? You got the answer in mail, with the original question in it. I searched that mail. Its not something I could link to.

[Salvadore]

/facepalm

I skimmed through this thread after I read Jadia's reply to my thread...then realized every second or third post is by her...

I was wrong, you aren't the queen of the carebears. You are apparently THE apostle of Jordichrist - Interpreting his preachings, repeating his words in the rawest form, and spreading his promises throughout the desolate Xsyon forums to bring hope, peace, and promise to all players carebear and pvp alike...

Im almost waiting for you to say you can part the actual Lake Tahoe and lead your people to the promised land with Jordi's new 10 commandments of the next patch. Ya know, the ones like:

1. Thou shalt not pk
2. Thou shalt not be outside of a safezone
3. Thou shalt not risk anything ever
4. Thou shalt not ever have thine feelings hurt in game by any meanies ever
5. Thou shalt not chop thy neighbors trees
6. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors lewts

ETC. Just keep posting and flooding arguments.

[ifireallymust]

/facepalm

I skimmed through this thread after I read Jadia's reply to my thread...then realized every second or third post is by her...

I was wrong, you aren't the queen of the carebears. You are apparently THE apostle of Jordichrist - Interpreting his preachings, repeating his words in the rawest form, and spreading his promises throughout the desolate Xsyon forums to bring hope, peace, and promise to all players carebear and pvp alike...

Im almost waiting for you to say you can part the actual Lake Tahoe and lead your people to the promised land with Jordi's new 10 commandments of the next patch. Ya know, the ones like:

1. Thou shalt not pk
2. Thou shalt not be outside of a safezone
3. Thou shalt not risk anything ever
4. Thou shalt not ever have thine feelings hurt in game by any meanies ever
5. Thou shalt not chop thy neighbors trees
6. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors lewts

ETC. Just keep posting and flooding arguments.

Wouldn't that be the apostle of JordiMoses, not JordiChrist?

I can't believe I just responded to this post...

Edit: Or maybe JordiMosesAbraham?

[Jadzia]

/facepalm

I skimmed through this thread after I read Jadia's reply to my thread...then realized every second or third post is by her...

I was wrong, you aren't the queen of the carebears. You are apparently THE apostle of Jordichrist - Interpreting his preachings, repeating his words in the rawest form, and spreading his promises throughout the desolate Xsyon forums to bring hope, peace, and promise to all players carebear and pvp alike...

Im almost waiting for you to say you can part the actual Lake Tahoe and lead your people to the promised land with Jordi's new 10 commandments of the next patch. Ya know, the ones like:

1. Thou shalt not pk
2. Thou shalt not be outside of a safezone
3. Thou shalt not risk anything ever
4. Thou shalt not ever have thine feelings hurt in game by any meanies ever
5. Thou shalt not chop thy neighbors trees
6. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors lewts

ETC. Just keep posting and flooding arguments.

It would have been much shorter and clearer to just admit that you are out of arguments. But oh well, at least you tried to be dramatic I guess :)


Wouldn't that be the apostle of JordiMoses, not JordiChrist?

I can't believe I just responded to this post...

Edit: Or maybe JordiMosesAbraham?
I vote for JordiMosesAbraham !

[ifireallymust]

It would have been much shorter and clearer to just admit that you are out of arguments. But oh well, at least you tried to be dramatic I guess :)


I vote for JordiMosesAbraham !

Works for me as long as no one gets offended, I can't keep it all straight anymore, I gave up religion for Lent or something or other!

Anyway, MrDDT said to ask you about something. Would you be willing to travel long distances (at risk of being pked of course) for rare resources or to trade for any resource you didn't feel like trekking off to get as long as your safe zone wouldn't be vulnerable and if you had something worthwhile to trade that wasn't easily available to people who spend most of their time pvping or defending themselves from pvp? So let's say you want to make the latest and greatest three story log cabin and decorate it with the latest and greatest in fine pottery. If some of the resources you needed were a long way away, in the area where there are no safe zones, and through an area where no one can settle, do you have a problem with going to get it, even if you die and have to try a few times and it takes awhile? Or you could trade for it to someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to, for example, raise pack animals or grow crops or make something else that only dedicated crafters can create?

[Jadzia]

Works for me as long as no one gets offended, I can't keep it all straight anymore, I gave up religion for Lent or something or other!

Anyway, MrDDT said to ask you about something. Would you be willing to travel long distances (at risk of being pked of course) for rare resources or to trade for any resource you didn't feel like trekking off to get as long as your safe zone wouldn't be vulnerable and if you had something worthwhile to trade that wasn't easily available to people who spend most of their time pvping or defending themselves from pvp? So let's say you want to make the latest and greatest three story log cabin and decorate it with the latest and greatest in fine pottery. If some of the resources you needed were a long way away, in the area where there are no safe zones, and through an area where no one can settle, do you have a problem with going to get it, even if you die and have to try a few times and it takes awhile? Or you could trade for it to someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to, for example, raise pack animals or grow crops or make something else that only dedicated crafters can create?

With the bolded conditions I wouldn't have any problem with it. I would even like to go and get it myself if there was an accessible resource hub and its not something that can only be found inside PvP tribes territory.

I wonder though what do you mean by a long travel...running for 2-3 hours doesn't sound like a great fun :( Half an hour is fine :) If it takes more I'd just ask the trader to come to me and buy from him for my cool pack animal !

[ifireallymust]

With the bolded conditions I wouldn't have any problem with it. I would even like to go and get it myself if there was an accessible resource hub and its not something that can only be found inside PvP tribes territory.

I wonder though what do you mean by a long travel...running for 2-3 hours doesn't sound like a great fun :( Half an hour is fine :) If it takes more I'd just ask the trader to come to me and buy from him for my cool pack animal !

I was thinking forty minutes to an hour each way, but only if you don't run into trouble, which sometimes you surely would. You could speed it up with a pack animal and mount, but you'd risk losing them and be more easy to spot by the no safe zone tribes. Of course, if you happened to breed the fastest horses and mules in the land, you'd also have more opportunity to run away.

Then, if smaller amounts of the resources were random spawn, you'd have to search for them. It would be somewhat time consuming, but it would also prevent tribes from guarding every single node of whatever you came for.

[Book]

I was thinking forty minutes to an hour each way, but only if you don't run into trouble, which sometimes you surely would. You could speed it up with a pack animal and mount, but you'd risk losing them and be more easy to spot by the no safe zone tribes. Of course, if you happened to breed the fastest horses and mules in the land, you'd also have more opportunity to run away.

Then, if smaller amounts of the resources were random spawn, you'd have to search for them. It would be somewhat time consuming, but it would also prevent tribes from guarding every single node of whatever you came for.

I'd like to buy me one ah dem hosses... *patouie*... *ding*

[MrDDT]

With the bolded conditions I wouldn't have any problem with it. I would even like to go and get it myself if there was an accessible resource hub and its not something that can only be found inside PvP tribes territory.

I wonder though what do you mean by a long travel...running for 2-3 hours doesn't sound like a great fun :( Half an hour is fine :) If it takes more I'd just ask the trader to come to me and buy from him for my cool pack animal !

This is the same system Ive been saying for a long time. Glad you agree with it.

Rare resources on both sides.
Contested areas should have more rare resources being they are contested and only in the contested areas.
Safe totem areas shouldnt be anywhere near rare resources in contested areas.
Safe totems on rare resources, you said before that you dont think it should happen, and I believe its ok as long as they are able to be depleted but you dont like that idea either.
Travel times, and able to transport goods over long ranges is a must for any system to work correctly IMO.

[ifireallymust]

I'd like to buy me one ah dem hosses... *patouie*... *ding*

Not a chance, Pilgrim. The smart breeders will only sell their second fastest horses and pack mules!

[JCatano]

@JCatano:
It was asked through the FAQ page....remember when you could ask questions there, it was emailed to the devs, and they replied to it ? You got the answer in mail, with the original question in it. I searched that mail. Its not something I could link to.

Screenie it.

[Jadzia]

I was thinking forty minutes to an hour each way, but only if you don't run into trouble, which sometimes you surely would. You could speed it up with a pack animal and mount, but you'd risk losing them and be more easy to spot by the no safe zone tribes. Of course, if you happened to breed the fastest horses and mules in the land, you'd also have more opportunity to run away.

Then, if smaller amounts of the resources were random spawn, you'd have to search for them. It would be somewhat time consuming, but it would also prevent tribes from guarding every single node of whatever you came for.

40 minutes is ok as well, 1 hour is a bit long....it doesn't encourage trading or traveling. If the time can be speeded up with mounts then its fine.


This is the same system Ive been saying for a long time. Glad you agree with it.

Rare resources on both sides.
Really ? I remember you insisting that only basic resources on the other side.


Added after 1 10 minutes:


Screenie it.

You can check it here: http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz265/Jadzi12/xsyonmail1.jpg

[Rudder]

I really don't want this game to insert anything from MO OR DF. Xyson IS NOT a Fantasy or a Sci-Fi game, so it should forge it's own path.

[MrDDT]

Really ? I remember you insisting that only basic resources on the other side.




http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7025-Xsyon-Moving-to-Carebear.?p=84124&viewfull=1#post84124





Just to to define it, when I said safety I meant safety from PvP. I guess when you mean risk you mean risk from PvP.

Saying 'safety is the reward itself' is like I was saying 'You can PvP, thats your reward'. Being able to play in the way you like is not a reward, its only a basic condition.

I agree that players should put the same amount of work into something, be it a PvE or PvP player. So if they place rare resources to both areas, but in safe areas gathering is slower thats totally fine.

On the other hand you equal risk with PvP. That is not true. PvE players have no problem with risk....they have problem with forced PvP. Add strong bears who guard rare resources and you placed risk to the PvE player too. Add such a strong one that only a group could kill it and you gave reason for players to team up. Like fatboy's idea about the zombie camp, it really sound good.




I agree with about the part I made red. I believe I stated that in my post before. Trading is great. I also believe that the contested AKA high risk areas, should yield more overall rewards and rares due to the fact that they are contested and higher risk. (Just like EVE does it).

As you can see here, Ive stated it before also, Im sure there are many posts about me saying it before.

I also believe that I dont think you NEED to have rare resources in the "safe totem" areas, but you can, but you would have to limit how fast and how much worth these resources are. Hence the "Safe areas gathering is slower thats totally fine" comment by you, is what Im agreeing to here also.

[Jadzia]

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7025-Xsyon-Moving-to-Carebear.?p=84124&viewfull=1#post84124

As you can see here, Ive stated it before also, Im sure there are many posts about me saying it before.

I also believe that I dont think you NEED to have rare resources in the "safe totem" areas, but you can, but you would have to limit how fast and how much worth these resources are. Hence the "Safe areas gathering is slower thats totally fine" comment by you, is what Im agreeing to here also.

You also said :
Safe totems anywhere near rare resources is going to be a huge problem.
And this :
Clearly not, there shouldnt be any rare resources where safe totems are period.

But if you have changed your mind and you don't mind rare resources in safe totem areas then its all good.

The best would be if these rare resources wouldn't be the same type. Some rares you could gather in contested areas, while some you could gather in areas which has safe towns (don't forget these areas has open PvP as well). Or going by ifireallymust's example, in safe cities you could grow better plants so you could make better food and healing potions, raise more advanced pack animals, while in the contested areas you could have resources needed for the best armors and the best weapons. Kind of regional resources. That way people would be forced to trade, and both side would have valuable stuffs to offer.

[MrDDT]

I was talking about safe totems anywhere near contested rare resources.

Im the one that thinks in the safe totem areas, you can drop a safe totem on a rare resources just make it deplete after a while, and you said something like "No because then people would have to move their tribe and totem" or something like that.
Which I say so what. I think all rare resources should deplete after a while too. Contested areas should have longer lasting rare resource spawns, but I believe all of them should deplete after a while to mix things up a bit.

[AndyI]

Tons of things have changed you are nuts. What about 2 servers? What about EARLY PRELUDE WOULD REMOVE SAFE ZONES?
Im sorry that you cant see it, and that you forgot what the game was about since day 1. But these all have changed. Heck even the features have changed. How are those resource controls?
If you think people are crying over gates vs safe zones then clearly you still missing the point of all the PVPers.
PVPers dont care there are a few safe areas in the game. They care that the safe areas are able to control resources ANYWHERE on the map AT any time. Full looting is NOT in the game. They care that these stupid private bins are littering the world, and that people can do whatever they want and there is NOTHING a PVPer can do other than move or deal with it.

Safe zones should be limited to special areas, OR give PVPers zones where we can go and have contested areas. We are not asking for 100% of the map you and the carebears are. PVPers are asking for DIFFICULTY VS REWARD!!!

When PVE gets more difficult than PVP, then they should be rewarded more, until then PVP is as far as I know one of the hardest things. When you consider losing your whole totem and all that time, fighting vs the best tactics, then the reward should be great.
Right now killing a bear, and avoiding the 1 PVPer in the whole game isnt very difficult.

Im done talking to you about this.

I should come wall your totem in, and see what you think about your safe totem area then. The system is freaking bad in SOOOO many ways.

Added after 7 minutes:



Sorry, hunger thirst are in the game. Comfort has nothing to do with PVE.

Book, are you trying to say Ive not thought through this and posted many ideas on how to change the system? But you get people like Jadzia that think "We need more safe areas to fix the problem with too many safe totems" They come in with knee jerk ways of fixing something which only hurt it more, and make no sense.
I post a great system for both sides to be more than happy with what would be put into it, and the carebears want it all. "Oh if rare resources are in contested areas only then we are forced into those areas as carebears" then they cry "Well if they going to do something like that we cant agree on anything and should have 2 servers".

They wont give 1" to try to fix the game. Worst part like I said, is that they think they want all these safety options with resources inside their safety bubble. Then when econ sucks, people are bored and everyone has 100 in every skill. They are like "Well we need more stuff to do". Its like really? Didnt we just say that your bad idea of doing all that safetly crap was killing the game?


I will say it again, EVERY AREA SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO BE TAKEN. THERE NEEDS TO BE SAFE ZONES. I hope that is clear. Now moving on from that point. Having a safe zone in every part of the map at anytime is the problem with the system.



Dont you understand she wants safe zones to be able to piss anyone off she wants and still be able to stick her tongue out and say "nan nah a booboo you cant hurt me". She wants all the resources at her finger tips and control them forever, without anyone stopping her in anyway. Then when she chooses to PVP, it will be on her terms and she will risk nothing.

I'm glad you're not a programmer with some of the absurdly flawed logic you're spouting. You wouldn't last 5 minutes working for me.

Hey everyone, lets not add any balance features due to lack of content because it may be exploited! Now there's an idea. Please!

On some things I agree, Totems should not be able to be placed on resource nodes (grass and rock, water etc. can't be helped but it could be prevented on scrap heaps) but how is that anyones fault except how it was implemented?

You talk about risk vs reward but as Jadzia pointed out, the risk has not been implemented for PVP either in the form of a criminal system which has always been on the list of features. Safe zones are not a bad feature they merely allow exploits at this point in time because of the implementation and cool down features etc. were discussed on the forums to prevent possible exploits.

You're talking like the design of these features and the subsequent possible exploits are the fault of any players. Get real.

Bins needed permissions so tribe mates could not just steal anything. I remember all of the high value thefts and scams in EVE. Yes granted we have nothing of high value yet (soon to change) but again how is that a players fault? It's all down to design and implementation. The fact that bins maintain thier permissions in non tribe land is being fixed and still like a broken record you keep on like it's a players fault when again it's down to DESIGN, IMPLEMENTATION and or OVERSIGHT.

Regardless of whether she believes she should be able to have a totem anywhere including near a rare resource, she is not to blame for how it is implemented. It has been clearly stated that the new areas will be contested so once again I ask how has this game been ruined by the 'carebears'? We'll have what we think we need and that is rare resources will not be able to be obtained by totems that cannot be contested and still you maintain that Jadzia is the root of all evil :) Clearly Jordi never listened to anyone saying that they should not be contested. The facts speak for themselves.

Nobody but the dev team are responsible for the future of the game. We all post here with all different views and they (and only they) choose who to listen to and we have to hope on balance and merit and in keeping with the goal of the game. No player is to blame for anything that results in exploits or anything else for that matter.

I'd be inclined to agree with some people more if they were merely pointing out where the issues are in a constructive way rather than blaming someone who is clearly not responsible for anything but having an opinion like anyone else. Nobody has to listen to it.

Bored with the ridiculous blame game now so back to lurk mode for me.

[Drevar]

I't thinking the rare resources we are anticipating are not the kind that Jordi is planning. Not with the current in-testing system anyway. It appears he is distributing the resources gained via foraging and scavenging and sub-sequent sorting, and making some rare in one area and others rare in others. I think we are arguing over static, visible nodes of some sort of resource...gold, silver, and gems to mine, iron or copper ore, extra fertile earth for crops, etc. whereas those are not on the table yet.

Basically we will have the same junkpiles, but different areas will provide different items from those junkpiles.

[Dubanka]

You talk about risk vs reward but as Jadzia pointed out, the risk has not been implemented for PVP either in the form of a criminal system which has always been on the list of features.

uhh. no. never read anything about a criminal system. Allignment system...yes. The risk of pvp is that you like die and lose your stuff. the risk of crafting is OH NO I FAILED THE HOOOOORRRRRRROOOOOOOORRRRRR. Using jadzia as a reference is like preaching to your own personal choir...we over here on the violent side see her as whack in a carebear extremist kinda way.

additionally you are misquoting her...since if you were not defending her, she would correct your statement and remind you that the devs said there will be contested areas in the expansion areas...not that all the expansion area would be contested...in fact she is adamently opposed to having the entire expansion area bein a pvp playground.

re: blame. ultimately the devs are to blame for the state of the game. However. the playerbase in the beta phase is also to blame. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. There was very little conversation (proportionately) pre feb 2011 discussing the pvp rule sets,mechanics, etc...in fact the existing playerbase was horribly surprised when 'we' came in droves. Anyway, the fact that there was not the constant hollering that 'this shit needs to get fixed before this gets released', combined with the intial dev approach of 'well get to combat in a bit' leads me to believe that tthe player base's input did not provide sufficient justification for the devs to bump the issue on their priority list. *shrug*

[Jadzia]

I't thinking the rare resources we are anticipating are not the kind that Jordi is planning. Not with the current in-testing system anyway. It appears he is distributing the resources gained via foraging and scavenging and sub-sequent sorting, and making some rare in one area and others rare in others. I think we are arguing over static, visible nodes of some sort of resource...gold, silver, and gems to mine, iron or copper ore, extra fertile earth for crops, etc. whereas those are not on the table yet.

Basically we will have the same junkpiles, but different areas will provide different items from those junkpiles.

This. We can brainstorm as much as we like but seems he plans something else.



re: blame. ultimately the devs are to blame for the state of the game. However. the playerbase in the beta phase is also to blame. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. There was very little conversation (proportionately) pre feb 2011 discussing the pvp rule sets,mechanics, etc...in fact the existing playerbase was horribly surprised when 'we' came in droves. Anyway, the fact that there was not the constant hollering that 'this shit needs to get fixed before this gets released', combined with the intial dev approach of 'well get to combat in a bit' leads me to believe that tthe player base's input did not provide sufficient justification for the devs to bump the issue on their priority list. *shrug*

You are very wrong about this, Dub. I bet you haven't checked the old threads a year ago. This has always been a very hot topic and we had like 50 pages long threads arguing about it. There were PvP oriented players from the first day who were asking for safe zones being removed, the game to become a war oriented one. Read those threads and then come and say that this topic was neglected, lol :)
These debates always got out of hand after a while, and Xsyon stepped in...every time he assured the players that the game is not supposed to be a Darkfall-like FFA wargame, players will be able to flee from PvP and safe zones will be there till we can build up our defensive structures. This is not something the players forced on the devs...this is their own goal, to give the tools to both sides to enjoy the game.

[MrDDT]

I'm glad you're not a programmer with some of the absurdly flawed logic you're spouting. You wouldn't last 5 minutes working for me.

Likely the most true statement in this whole post. As I tend to not work for people that are inferior to me, I tend to teach them and lead them.



Hey everyone, lets not add any balance features due to lack of content because it may be exploited! Now there's an idea. Please!

Im not saying to not add features because they can be exploited. Im saying dont add features with exploits. Meaning, if a feature CAN be exploited dont add it, without fixing the way it can be exploited.
If you add a money system, but people can dupe it. Dont you think that adding the money system would do more harm than good unless you can fix a dupe? If something is hard to exploit, and would be rarely exploited sure add a good system.



On some things I agree, Totems should not be able to be placed on resource nodes (grass and rock, water etc. can't be helped but it could be prevented on scrap heaps) but how is that anyones fault except how it was implemented?

Sorry I must have missed where I was saying it was the players fault.




You talk about risk vs reward but as Jadzia pointed out, the risk has not been implemented for PVP either in the form of a criminal system which has always been on the list of features. Safe zones are not a bad feature they merely allow exploits at this point in time because of the implementation and cool down features etc. were discussed on the forums to prevent possible exploits.

Risk isnt put into place for PVP? Odd, I died the other day and lost a full set of high QL bone armor, a VHQ blade and some other stuff. Guess I must have missed the bears taking that stuff from me in PVE.



You're talking like the design of these features and the subsequent possible exploits are the fault of any players. Get real.

Again Im not blaming the players. I do blame people saying that a system is good when it allows such a clear way to exploit.




Bins needed permissions so tribe mates could not just steal anything. I remember all of the high value thefts and scams in EVE. Yes granted we have nothing of high value yet (soon to change) but again how is that a players fault? It's all down to design and implementation. The fact that bins maintain thier permissions in non tribe land is being fixed and still like a broken record you keep on like it's a players fault when again it's down to DESIGN, IMPLEMENTATION and or OVERSIGHT.

I agree that bins need permissions for inside a tribe area. Im talking about outside the tribe area. Sorry for the confusion. Again not blaming players. Only upset at players when players try to back up and stand behind a system that is bad.



Regardless of whether she believes she should be able to have a totem anywhere including near a rare resource, she is not to blame for how it is implemented. It has been clearly stated that the new areas will be contested so once again I ask how has this game been ruined by the 'carebears'? We'll have what we think we need and that is rare resources will not be able to be obtained by totems that cannot be contested and still you maintain that Jadzia is the root of all evil :) Clearly Jordi never listened to anyone saying that they should not be contested. The facts speak for themselves.

I think you dont understand what Ive been saying. I agree that people should have totems near rare resources. I just dont think they should have safe totems. Heck, I even want to allow safe totems on rare resources in the safe totem areas (not contested or expansion areas), but allow them to deplete quickly. She says no safe totems on rare resources at all.
I believe the game is being ruined by carebears not thinking through the problems. Coming up with knee jerk ways to fix a problem. Like Jadzias fix to the problem of too many safe totems that are not used anymore hogging up the area, idea is add more safe totem area. Its so sad, its funny.
I have no idea what you are talking about the contested totems for.



Nobody but the dev team are responsible for the future of the game. We all post here with all different views and they (and only they) choose who to listen to and we have to hope on balance and merit and in keeping with the goal of the game. No player is to blame for anything that results in exploits or anything else for that matter.

If you feel that players have no impact on the game, and its future, well I dont know how to explain it other than "You are wrong".
Also about the "They choose who they listen too" I agree, but unlike the PVPer group of people. Carebears will email, bug, whine and cry to the devs until its changed. Squeaky wheel gets the oil. Only so many emails you can take before you start to think "Maybe this is really what the players want" then it gets put into place and well as you can see with the state of the server pop, and who is playing just how well that has worked out for them. Also look at what people are saying. "Im bored", "Nothing has meaning".
Im not saying Jadzia is exploiting, and Ive never called her one. She has called me one. So Im not really sure what you mean here. If you mean that players are not to blame for ideas they come up with that are put into game and then people exploit them? Well I can blame them for not thinking a system through. When I saw the exploit ahead of time and warned them, and they say things like "No it wont be exploited" or something. Then yes players, and devs would be to blame.




I'd be inclined to agree with some people more if they were merely pointing out where the issues are in a constructive way rather than blaming someone who is clearly not responsible for anything but having an opinion like anyone else. Nobody has to listen to it.

Bored with the ridiculous blame game now so back to lurk mode for me.

Ive made many posts without blaming anyone. You should try reading those. I call it like I see it. If blame needs to be placed then it does. I dont really care about blame unless people are trying to make the same mistake again. If someone comes up with a bad idea and its put into the game, and they go "Ya my bad, I didnt see that" or something like that, you wont seem be harping on blaming them. Would just get to work on fixing the problem.


I't thinking the rare resources we are anticipating are not the kind that Jordi is planning. Not with the current in-testing system anyway. It appears he is distributing the resources gained via foraging and scavenging and sub-sequent sorting, and making some rare in one area and others rare in others. I think we are arguing over static, visible nodes of some sort of resource...gold, silver, and gems to mine, iron or copper ore, extra fertile earth for crops, etc. whereas those are not on the table yet.

Basically we will have the same junkpiles, but different areas will provide different items from those junkpiles.

Yes, Drevar I think you are right here, but I think there is 2 things Jordi is doing. Changing of how items are found making some items more rare and local, and adding in new resources that will give bonuses to crafting.


This. We can brainstorm as much as we like but seems he plans something else.




You are very wrong about this, Dub. I bet you haven't checked the old threads a year ago. This has always been a very hot topic and we had like 50 pages long threads arguing about it. There were PvP oriented players from the first day who were asking for safe zones being removed, the game to become a war oriented one. Read those threads and then come and say that this topic was neglected, lol :)
These debates always got out of hand after a while, and Xsyon stepped in...every time he assured the players that the game is not supposed to be a Darkfall-like FFA wargame, players will be able to flee from PvP and safe zones will be there till we can build up our defensive structures. This is not something the players forced on the devs...this is their own goal, to give the tools to both sides to enjoy the game.

Its not about being Darkfall, its about NOT ABLE TO TAKE A TOTEM EVER, and safe zones anywhere at anytime.

Why would you need "defensive" structures if there are safe totems? You even said it yourself you dont build walls because you have all the safety you need.

I have read those threads, and the way you are explaining them, and Xsyon is a nice spin on it.

[Dubanka]

You are very wrong about this, Dub. I bet you haven't checked the old threads a year ago. This has always been a very hot topic and we had like 50 pages long threads arguing about it. There were PvP oriented players from the first day who were asking for safe zones being removed, the game to become a war oriented one. Read those threads and then come and say that this topic was neglected, lol :)
These debates always got out of hand after a while, and Xsyon stepped in...every time he assured the players that the game is not supposed to be a Darkfall-like FFA wargame, players will be able to flee from PvP and safe zones will be there till we can build up our defensive structures. This is not something the players forced on the devs...this is their own goal, to give the tools to both sides to enjoy the game.

yes i have read the threads. and they amount to the same thing: a couple / few pvp centric folks being shouted down by a legion of hate-pvp folks. they are 50 pages long because each pvp point results in 10-15, YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID WHY DO YOU WANT THIS TO BE ANOTHER MO OR DF DIAF MF!!!!. or something to that effect. And those threads were pretty basic in their concept...the pvp folks got shouted down over very general gameplay concepts...The discussion never made it past, 'what is pvp in xsyon...' It never got to 'how you pvp in xsyon', 'why do you pvp in xsyon', much less the finer points of the now ubiquitous 'how do we balance pvpr and non pvprs in xsyon'.

So yes, you had some discussions where some pvp folks through out some ideas, and you (the non pvp masses) told them how stupid their ideas were then congratulated yourself on how smart you were, then jordi would come in and make his usual vague statement about 'how things will be' that everyone can read whatever they want into...and voila. Here we are, talking to pvp folks that you can't outshout, and don't go away :)

[NorCalGooey]

yes i have read the threads. and they amount to the same thing: a couple / few pvp centric folks being shouted down by a legion of hate-pvp folks. they are 50 pages long because each pvp point results in 10-15, YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID WHY DO YOU WANT THIS TO BE ANOTHER MO OR DF DIAF MF!!!!. or something to that effect. And those threads were pretty basic in their concept...the pvp folks got shouted down over very general gameplay concepts...The discussion never made it past, 'what is pvp in xsyon...' It never got to 'how you pvp in xsyon', 'why do you pvp in xsyon', much less the finer points of the now ubiquitous 'how do we balance pvpr and non pvprs in xsyon'.

So yes, you had some discussions where some pvp folks through out some ideas, and you (the non pvp masses) told them how stupid their ideas were then congratulated yourself on how smart you were, then jordi would come in and make his usual vague statement about 'how things will be' that everyone can read whatever they want into...and voila. Here we are, talking to pvp folks that you can't outshout, and don't go away :)

Which is the whole reason we are still having this discussion. Poor discussion back then

[Book]

Never quite understood the "squeaky wheel gets the grease thing..." I mean, is it supposed to be an insult or put down of some kind? Often seems like it's a pvp-centric player talking about holistic-centric players being a squeaky wheel... but then look at how much focus combat is getting from the devs at the moment? I don't quite get it.

If there indeed were so many people not into a pvp-only focus during beta, that should probably tell you something. Those were people who stuck with the game for a very long time and must have seen something they'd enjoy in it. They stayed through delayed launches on a number of occasions.

Conversely, you have a number of folks who step in at the last minute and expect to be catered to immediately... and then have the gall to blame the people that stuck it out for the year prior to it?

My understanding is that Hopi used to be a very peaceful tribe before Armand took it over no? As a peaceful tribe, they attracted hundreds of players... but clearly a peaceful playstyle just isn't viable! Makes no sense folks.

I think a number of the year-long beta testers might have left due to the week-long lag issue after launch, and the rather massive roll-back that occurred when they were working on what was to be their permanent characters rather than characters they knew would be wiped.
A number of others left when the last minute folks did come in droves after, or just prior-to launch because let's face it: People who come in at the last minute and wipe their crap complaining all over the place aren't fun to hang out with.

As far as pvpers not going away... most already did. Unlike the crafters that stuck it out for over a year, they lasted what? 3 weeks of not getting exactly what they wanted, or what they wanted to hear, before they stomped their little feet, started insulting everyone and left??

My first post on the forums (or just about) was referring to the old Jumpgate classic and what happened there when a handful of "we are uber killers!!" people came in and wreaked havoc. Server emptied and they were left to kill each other if they could find each other. I pointed out I didn't want to see that here and uhm... found someone to kill lately?

Your foresight is astounding.

It's also rather funny to hear MrDDT say he's not blaming players when many of his posts reference the evil carebears as the cause of all things bad... seriously, and again, makes no sense.

Unfortunate if people don't like to hear another DF isn't really what was wanted before you got here.

Xsyon also has stated he wanted to mold the game in accordance with the types of players he attracted. This may turn out to be a problem when he attracts players that come in after a year-long beta. Don't like anything they see about the game (your own words Dub), complain profusely, and leave before development switches to deal with the NEW type of player suddenly attracted to a game they wanted but wasn't there.

The notion that with safe zones a pvp player has no choice but to move... hypocrites much? That's exactly what is told to someone who doesn't feel like pvping 24/7 by those who do want to do nothing but running around killing other people, dominating other people to compensate for whatever, and destroying what other people have worked on.

Why have walls if there are safe zones? Safe zones were there to allow for the building of defenses... dense much? Of course, those defenses must be destructible!! So you can better impose your will on others... otherwise they can just move right? Brilliant.

[Jadzia]

Very good post, Book.

Edit: Deleted my post, nvm pointless arguing again.

[MrDDT]

Never quite understood the "squeaky wheel gets the grease thing..." I mean, is it supposed to be an insult or put down of some kind? Often seems like it's a pvp-centric player talking about holistic-centric players being a squeaky wheel... but then look at how much focus combat is getting from the devs at the moment? I don't quite get it.

If there indeed were so many people not into a pvp-only focus during beta, that should probably tell you something. Those were people who stuck with the game for a very long time and must have seen something they'd enjoy in it. They stayed through delayed launches on a number of occasions.


This right here is why it happens. You believe that because a few or a lot of people are "squeaking" that means they are the most needed, or means that its the most common thought.
When sometimes (not always) its not the case at all. Its like, do happy players post on the forums? Most happy players I know in other games never post on the forums because they are happy with playing the game. Thus it seems like most people playing games are unhappy with the game. When really, its just that forum people are unhappy mostly, and even then its not saying that fully.

The common "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" only means that if the devs hear it, or see a post about it, they are likely to fix it. If no one says anything about it, or its not commented on, then its likely not to be seen as a big problem.



Xsyon also has stated he wanted to mold the game in accordance with the types of players he attracted. This may turn out to be a problem when he attracts players that come in after a year-long beta. Don't like anything they see about the game (your own words Dub), complain profusely, and leave before development switches to deal with the NEW type of player suddenly attracted to a game they wanted but wasn't there.


Book which is why we are posting.
If we allow carebears to just keep posting and crying on the forums without any rubtal from PVPers, then it will turn into a carebear game. We have already seen it. Back when Xsyon first came out, it was well known that PVP was FFA, Safe zones would be removed after Prelude. Then the carebears were unhappy with it, so they cried. While the PVPers are happy, they didnt bother posting. Over time it was changed because it was seen that the carebears are the playerbase.

But low and behold lookie, the PVPers all left, because of lack of PVP stuff, and change in the rules and other factors. While you have left is a few carebears that are unhappy with the bad systems they put into place.



The notion that with safe zones a pvp player has no choice but to move... hypocrites much? That's exactly what is told to someone who doesn't feel like pvping 24/7 by those who do want to do nothing but running around killing other people, dominating other people to compensate for whatever, and destroying what other people have worked on.

Not really, how do you fix the problem with someone if they wont move? You could buy them out. But what if they dont want it?
You could ask them to move? But what if they dont want to?

Unlike a PVP way, is you could (assuming you dont want to fight yourself) is pay them to move, but they might not want to. Or you could pay someone else to move them for you. Now it has no choice in the "they dont want to" anymore.

Ive come up with systems that prevent peoples towns from being destroyed 24/7. You know why? I dont want it either. Yet you think Im this huge PVPer. I want prevents from just what you are saying. I dont want to fight 24/7. Heck most PVPers dont want to fight 24/7.
Most PVPers want to fight when they want to fight, and sometimes randomly, and sometimes planned.




As far as pvpers not going away... most already did. Unlike the crafters that stuck it out for over a year, they lasted what? 3 weeks of not getting exactly what they wanted, or what they wanted to hear, before they stomped their little feet, started insulting everyone and left??

Which crafters? Because the game is dead to me.
There are PVPers still here, but of course most are going to leave when there is these crappy safe totem system, and lack of working combat. If crafting was as broken as combat, ALL the crafters would leave. Even the 50 still playing now.

[Book]

Think I get what you're saying, or at least certainly trying ;). Funny how it looks so much like English which I'm very familiar with and probably even pretty adept at speaking, and yet half the time we seem to be talking just a bit left or right of each other :confused:

So, if I'm to understand the squeaky wheel thing, it won't stop until happy people come post how happy they are and give positive reinforcement. Otherwise, all the devs see as feedback is the negative... so they diligently make changes to address the negative, but in so doing wind up upsetting the happy ones who now come to post their negatives and the cycle starts again.

I'm assuming the trick will be to find the happy medium where feedback comes in the form of growing profit, and we all have a different sense of how that's going to happen. I just hope it does one way or another.

I was looking at Vandal's wiki, saw the map, got all nostalgic, re-downloaded the game and resubbed.

I still contend that it doesn't take all that many rabid, foaming at the mouth pvp types to drive a server right into the ground. I tend to think we have some amongst us, and it's going to be a problem that won't be easily countered by remotely conventional means.

I do still know what I saw before I myself took a break, which was folks I really enjoyed getting frustrated with being constantly harrassed by naked lil ppl with big axes and no longer being able to relax at all in their own neighborhood. The old addage of "get together and fight" doesn't work, plain and simple. Nice theory, doesn't translate to practice...

I think a lot of potential customers, way more than the rabid mouth foamers, fall into the category that won't want to deal with endless torment. I presume the worst offenders have gotten bored now that much of their prey jumped ship. Wonder if the population grows again with reasonable, fairly well-adjusted adults, are we going to get the teenage angst must rule the world folks back and the cycle starts all over again.

Guess we'll find out. In the meantime, I'll try and muster up the desire to be a bit more rabid myself so I can meet folks in the middle, but in all honesty, I haven't had much desire to plow through anyone since I quit drinkin' a while back. Go figure. If the combat mechanics themselves are fun and challenging, that's one thing... but that hasn't been the reason to pvp thus far, it's mostly been pew-pew for the sake of it or to personally harrass which I don't find fun at all.

Oddly enough, it's also since then that I enjoy BC2 so much more... so much easier to shoot the enemy without triple vision! Only need a third of the ammo to boot.

[Jadzia]

So, if I'm to understand the squeaky wheel thing, it won't stop until happy people come post how happy they are and give positive reinforcement. Otherwise, all the devs see as feedback is the negative... so they diligently make changes to address the negative, but in so doing wind up upsetting the happy ones who now come to post their negatives and the cycle starts again.

Yes, this is the problem with the so called player feedback. Thankfully, Jordi said that he would ask players' opinion about core features by email. That way the 'happy' ones will have their voices heard too.


Here we are, talking to pvp folks that you can't outshout, and don't go away
You have already left, Dub. You unsubscribed.

[Mactavendish]

There is exactly what I personally don't get... players that have stopped playing, cancelled their subscriptions and STILL moan and cry incessantly, instead of just trying to enjoy what they have.

I mean if this game is SO bad, and the dev's so unresponsive to your childish demands, what makes you think they are ever gonna cave in to you? And that is what it will take.. a cave in.. a burial of their own ideas and plans to meet what a very few seem to want.

I agree book .. none of this makes sense.

[Dubanka]

Yes, this is the problem with the so called player feedback. Thankfully, Jordi said that he would ask players' opinion about core features by email. That way the 'happy' ones will have their voices heard too.


You have already left, Dub. You unsubscribed.

nope. im still here. sorry. My penance for bring my guild in here was to be the canary at the bottom of the shaft...ill start chirping if i think it's worth coming back for.

and book there is always a wheel squeaking...whether it is or not...tis why you have to be just as vocal in support of the status quo, as you would be in rightous indignation over real or perceived problems.

and yes it is important for the devs to have a clear idea of what they want in the game, then they can sort through the feedback and decide if the 'issue' is as designed, or if something seems amiss.

Added after 7 minutes:


There is exactly what I personally don't get... players that have stopped playing, cancelled their subscriptions and STILL moan and cry incessantly, instead of just trying to enjoy what they have.

I mean if this game is SO bad, and the dev's so unresponsive to your childish demands, what makes you think they are ever gonna cave in to you? And that is what it will take.. a cave in.. a burial of their own ideas and plans to meet what a very few seem to want.

I agree book .. none of this makes sense.

childish demands? seriously?
the vast majority of my posts are logical arguments, laid out in a cohesive manner, where i take pains to understand both sides and present what i see as a workable bridge between them.
i'd dare say the pvp side's forum etiquette is quite a bit better than the antis, as we are rarely the first one's to let the petty personal insults fly.
And yes, i still have an active subscription, i wouldnt be wasting my time here otherwise.
and finally, following 'your' lead, the game has experienced massive population implosion...great. Perhaps it's time to alter the course just a tad. but that's for the devs to decide/implement.

It's just funny, because it does seem that some of 'you' are absolutely terrified that we get a game that is anything remotely close to the game 'we' want...while we completely understand the need for compromise and are perfectly willing to live in a world where 'you' get just about everything (not quite tho) that you want. I'm more curious to see how this plays out than anything.

[NorCalGooey]

It makes perfect sense. PVPers were an overwhelming majority of the player base. They all left. We are having a discussion about how to bring back the majority while not upsetting the minority :)

Incoming: PVPers aren't the majority.

To which I say, please don't be ignorant. Only a fool could say that they aren't.

[Book]

nope. im still here. sorry. My penance for bring my guild in here was to be the canary at the bottom of the shaft...ill start chirping if i think it's worth coming back for.

and book there is always a wheel squeaking...whether it is or not...tis why you have to be just as vocal in support of the status quo, as you would be in rightous indignation over real or perceived problems.

and yes it is important for the devs to have a clear idea of what they want in the game, then they can sort through the feedback and decide if the 'issue' is as designed, or if something seems amiss.

Added after 7 minutes:



childish demands? seriously?
the vast majority of my posts are logical arguments, laid out in a cohesive manner, where i take pains to understand both sides and present what i see as a workable bridge between them.
i'd dare say the pvp side's forum etiquette is quite a bit better than the antis, as we are rarely the first one's to let the petty personal insults fly.
And yes, i still have an active subscription, i wouldnt be wasting my time here otherwise.
and finally, following 'your' lead, the game has experienced massive population implosion...great. Perhaps it's time to alter the course just a tad. but that's for the devs to decide/implement.

It's just funny, because it does seem that some of 'you' are absolutely terrified that we get a game that is anything remotely close to the game 'we' want...while we completely understand the need for compromise and are perfectly willing to live in a world where 'you' get just about everything (not quite tho) that you want. I'm more curious to see how this plays out than anything.

I know, you honestly believe what you're saying :)

The pvp forum etiquette is all that is it? Don't quite see it that way :D Some of the most offensive stuff I've seen were by people who live by your every word.

Not so much terrified you get the game you're looking for, just no desire at all to spend a minute in it. More terrified about a few things I hear in real life news... don't go thinking too much of your stance as to make people terrified. Again, just ain't all that :)

NorCal, the majority of people in the majority of games are middle of the roaders who enjoy CASUAL pvp. I wouldn't necessarily anyone saying otherwise is a fool, just not well informed.

[MrDDT]

NorCal, the majority of people in the majority of games are middle of the roaders who enjoy CASUAL pvp. I wouldn't necessarily anyone saying otherwise is a fool, just not well informed.

I have to agree with this, when you are talking about "Majority" of all gamers.
However, focus on what was said at the start of this game, and you will find that most of them were falling to the side of FFA PVP, thus most of the people looking and buying the game were PVPers IMO.

Now the game is going more carebear, you will have less PVPers. Its pretty simple concept to understand.

Announce a game is FFA PVP, and you will draw mostly PVPers to the game. Change the game to carebear land, and the PVPers will leave.

[Dubanka]

... the majority of people in the majority of games are middle of the roaders who enjoy CASUAL pvp. I wouldn't necessarily anyone saying otherwise is a fool, just not well informed.

the majority of people play games where they are led by the nose from one task to another in order to feel a sense of accomplishment.
the majority of people play games where they have nice simple teams to be on, and everything is perfectly controlled so they never feel disappointed (ie. instanced content).

xsyon is a niche game...xyson is not for the majority of people of who play games...a game that is advertised as FFA will not attract the majority of players.
the majority of people who play games with an 'FFA' tag next to it are pvp players, who are used to playing in niche games, in sand box worlds, with design elements that allow them to do pretty much whatever.

it goes back to the 'who is your audience'. the legion of casual gamers playing wow/rift/etc or the handful (couple hundred k) that prefer a little more freedom in their free time?

[Book]

No offense Dub but you're letting your sense of superiority and holier than thou attitude cloud your judgment.

Led by the nose? You can't imagine someone a bit different than you also enjoying an FFA environment but with something else in mind?

I'll be more than willing to agree that as soon as you say FFA PVP, the rabid must destroy folks get tunnel vision and sign on for a game where they don't like anything that's actually in it, they have no patience or hope that combat will improve, and yet they're determined to make everything about FFA PVP.

If you were to look at what you and your folks, in and out of squad are up to, you'd see it's pretty much folly. You see those six capital letters and start wanting to hump the server... take a step back, consider the complete game, the whole thing, and try to understand it's more complex than six capital letters. It's not going to be dumbed down to pewpewland. Or at least, I'm just so terrified of that happening!! Yeah, right, laughable mate.

I'm not remotely convinced you're sticking around because you have hope for the game. You're sticking around because you sold your friends a game that wasn't what you advertised to them, and now you hope to wrangle it more to their liking. Go fish.

[MrDDT]

No offense Dub but you're letting your sense of superiority and holier than thou attitude cloud your judgment.

Led by the nose? You can't imagine someone a bit different than you also enjoying an FFA environment but with something else in mind?

I'll be more than willing to agree that as soon as you say FFA PVP, the rabid must destroy folks get tunnel vision and sign on for a game where they don't like anything that's actually in it, they have no patience or hope that combat will improve, and yet they're determined to make everything about FFA PVP.

If you were to look at what you and your folks, in and out of squad are up to, you'd see it's pretty much folly. You see those six capital letters and start wanting to hump the server... take a step back, consider the complete game, the whole thing, and try to understand it's more complex than six capital letters. It's not going to be dumbed down to pewpewland. Or at least, I'm just so terrified of that happening!! Yeah, right, laughable mate.

I'm not remotely convinced you're sticking around because you have hope for the game. You're sticking around because you sold your friends a game that wasn't what you advertised to them, and now you hope to wrangle it more to their liking. Go fish.


You didnt say anything about how most carebears would avoid FFA PVP games at all, without reading any further. Jadzia even admitted this (or agreed to it, whichever word floats your boat).

Having said the game is going to be FFA PVP, most of the carebears that are WOW/Rift types said "Next" and didnt even bother any more.
While PVP people saw those 6 letters and came to the game.

So IMO at the start of this game the playerbase was PVP focused. Maybe not all rabid PVPers. But surely more than the avg MMO gamer.

Now over time, the game has changed from FFA PVP, to almost no PVP at all. Not just because of the crazy low server pop, but because of basic changes in the game system, and the lack of support for any kind of PVP combat. Like Safe zones staying, able to run away, not able to full loot, combat being so broken its unplayable. (Yes I know a lot of these effect PVE carebears too)
So most of the player base being PVP focused, left the game. Not only because of the overall game issues, but because of the shift of the squeaky wheel effect. In this case the wheel were the carebears.

[Book]

You didnt say anything about how most carebears would avoid FFA PVP games at all, without reading any further. Jadzia even admitted this (or agreed to it, whichever word floats your boat).

Having said the game is going to be FFA PVP, most of the carebears that are WOW/Rift types said "Next" and didnt even bother any more.
While PVP people saw those 6 letters and came to the game.

So IMO at the start of this game the playerbase was PVP focused. Maybe not all rabid PVPers. But surely more than the avg MMO gamer.

Now over time, the game has changed from FFA PVP, to almost no PVP at all. Not just because of the crazy low server pop, but because of basic changes in the game system, and the lack of support for any kind of PVP combat. Like Safe zones staying, able to run away, not able to full loot, combat being so broken its unplayable. (Yes I know a lot of these effect PVE carebears too)
So most of the player base being PVP focused, left the game. Not only because of the overall game issues, but because of the shift of the squeaky wheel effect. In this case the wheel were the carebears.

Well sure, there's pvp in FFA PVP games, pretty much a given. Beauty of Xsyon is there's more to it than just that. I met a number of pvpers I got along with absolutely great. They weren't full of themselves and didn't think FFA PVP meant they should run out of their camp and kill anyone that happened to walk by.

They never once felt the need to call me a carebear just because I enjoyed another facet of the game that has just as much reason to exist in a sandbox game as pvp. They understood full well that ffa pvp was a great part of a good sandbox game and just that, a part of it.

They didn't sign up for a game in which they don't like anything that's actually in it. They liked what was in it, they also like pvp. They understood there's more to life than rah rah I'm so strong and uber.

Seems to me the squeakiest wheel at the moment are the few, the very few that want a war game and aren't willing or capable of understanding there's more to Xsyon than that, and that's what makes it a great game in the long run.

Dumbing down to pewpew will please them for sure. It would also be unfortunate given the chance at complexity already started in this game. If that complexity was brought in as the game developed, well... cool. Sucks for those who wanted pewpew only. Since it's such a popular model I'm sure there'll be plenty of other such games cuz you know, so many people want pewpewmmoworld.

Addition: my point is, no offense to anyone in particular, but just can't understand the logic...
when a tribe of folks don't care about the trees in game, they don't care about the fact that it's completely innovative in being Tahoe topography, they don't care about the grass, hills, lake, so on... they hate crafting and everything involved in it, they just basically want to kill and burn down people's camps...

Does this really seem like the game for them? Why spend sooo much dev investment on those portions of the game if that's all it was intended to be, just hordes running about playing war?? Makes no sense at all. All they see is FFA PVP. Man, for goodness's sakes, there is so much MORE here than that.

[MrDDT]

Well sure, there's pvp in FFA PVP games, pretty much a given. Beauty of Xsyon is there's more to it than just that. I met a number of pvpers I got along with absolutely great. They weren't full of themselves and didn't think FFA PVP meant they should run out of their camp and kill anyone that happened to walk by.

They never once felt the need to call me a carebear just because I enjoyed another facet of the game that has just as much reason to exist in a sandbox game as pvp. They understood full well that ffa pvp was a great part of a good sandbox game and just that, a part of it.

They didn't sign up for a game in which they don't like anything that's actually in it. They liked what was in it, they also like pvp. They understood there's more to life than rah rah I'm so strong and uber.

Seems to me the squeakiest wheel at the moment are the few, the very few that want a war game and aren't willing or capable of understanding there's more to Xsyon than that, and that's what makes it a great game in the long run.

Dumbing down to pewpew will please them for sure. It would also be unfortunate given the chance at complexity already started in this game. If that complexity was brought in as the game developed, well... cool. Sucks for those who wanted pewpew only. Since it's such a popular model I'm sure there'll be plenty of other such games cuz you know, so many people want pewpewmmoworld.

Addition: my point is, no offense to anyone in particular, but just can't understand the logic...
when a tribe of folks don't care about the trees in game, they don't care about the fact that it's completely innovative in being Tahoe topography, they don't care about the grass, hills, lake, so on... they hate crafting and everything involved in it, they just basically want to kill and burn down people's camps...

Does this really seem like the game for them? Why spend sooo much dev investment on those portions of the game if that's all it was intended to be, just hordes running about playing war?? Makes no sense at all. All they see is FFA PVP. Man, for goodness's sakes, there is so much MORE here than that.

Of course the PVPers are going to be squeaking more now than ever before, because the game is a carebear type game now. The game has changed so Im sure you have met a lot of less hard core PVPers now the game is more carebear than what it started as because most of the PVPers have left the game once news came out about how they are going carebear.

I dont know who you think is running around playing war and burning everything in sight down. Im pretty sure Dub, and me are the squeakiest wheels here, and neither want that in a game.

Diffuclty vs Reward. Give the PVPers combat that works, things to fight for, and rewards for those things.
Im not sure where burning down trees and tearing out grass have to do with that part in PVPers lives and in fact given the choice, they would likely rather do something like, break a wall down to kill people to get their rewards from it than tear out grass or burn a tree.

You keep saying about how the PVPers should look for another game, because if its so great to have PVP then why dont they find another game. Do you not understand that this was a PVP game? FFA PVP, with Full loot, removal of safe zones after a short start up time.
Now its, totally changed from that. Almost no looting, broken combat, lack of warfare, and safe zones anywhere at anytime.

[Jadzia]

You should be able to flee most of the time, especially if you've built up decent running skill and wear light armor.
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/32-Conflict-Death-Consequences-and-Decisions/page4/#34
This is a quote from March 2010. It was always planned like this, flee from combat, limited looting, consensual warfare. Stop saying that it has changed...it is simply not true.


Added after 7 minutes:


It makes perfect sense. PVPers were an overwhelming majority of the player base. They all left. We are having a discussion about how to bring back the majority while not upsetting the minority :)

Incoming: PVPers aren't the majority.

To which I say, please don't be ignorant. Only a fool could say that they aren't.
Can you please prove your statement with any kind of data ? We had so many polls about safe zones...in all polls the majority of the people wanted safe zones. All of these polls were started by PvPers who was thinking like you, and every time they were proved wrong.


Do you not understand that this was a PVP game?
This is what YOU don't understand. This has never been a PvP game, Jordi stated so many times that while Xsyon does have PvP it is NOT a PvP focused game. The driving force is not PvP, and every player will have the space for their gamestyle in the game. That is why he always planned the 'flee from fight' system, that is why he planned consensual warfare and limited looting, that is why we have so many skill and will have even more which are not related to PvP in any way.

Book is right. So many people stop reading when they see "FFA PvP" and they don't read the restrictions and conditions. And later when they do meet with these they start to complain.

[NorCalGooey]

Can you please prove your statement with any kind of data ? We had so many polls about safe zones...in all polls the majority of the people wanted safe zones. All of these polls were started by PvPers who was thinking like you, and every time they were proved wrong.


This is what YOU don't understand. This has never been a PvP game, Jordi stated so many times that while Xsyon does have PvP it is NOT a PvP focused game. The driving force is not PvP, and every player will have the space for their gamestyle in the game. That is why he always planned the 'flee from fight' system, that is why he planned consensual warfare and limited looting, that is why we have so many skill and will have even more which are not related to PvP in any way.

Book is right. So many people stop reading when they see "FFA PvP" and they don't read the restrictions and conditions. And later when they do meet with these they start to complain.

Jadzia, all the proof in the world won't convince you. Those polls were only somewhat equal because PVE carebears were exponentially more abundant on the forums at that time. That's generally how it is in every game, except some of the PVPers finally decided to fight back in the past few months.

What you don't understand Jadzia, which is fine because it's hard to see what the future brings (just look at history), is that you don't even want the systems you propose as much as the ones PVPers propose. You just THINK you do, but it's apparent you have no idea of how these ideas work in practice. Because they work nothing like you think they will in theory. I've sided with you on as much as is practical to side with you about. My latest proposal is the most carebear and protection you can possibly get without ruining the game. It doesn't get anymore than safe zone than that because if it does, the game won't go anywhere. It's just fact and I wouldn't say so unless I knew it.

I don't get how you DON'T understand, sandbox by definition is high risk PvP. You SERIOUSLY aren't okay with that last proposal? Then there's no getting through to you. I gave GOOD aligned tribes so many entitlements in that proposal that if you still can't accept it, then there's just no helping you. You can't seriously feel that entitled. This is an MMO, not mine craft. Hell, even in mine craft you have more risk and distractions while building than in this game.

It's really truly sad that you can't see this is a PvP game BY DEFAULT. There's no way around it...DON'T YOU GET THAT? There's no other way to drive game play without PVP...I just don't understand why you don't understand. Please try and explain why YOU feel entitled to play Xsyon like it's a theme park game when really that's the farthest thing from the truth?

Whether it be combat PVP or political PVP...that is the main driving force behind every sandbox game. Oh and PLEASE stop saying the DEVs side with you. The DEVs know that this game cannot survive on AESTHETIC world building and crafting ALONE.

edit: when people were actually playing before, not much PVP even happened. especially between tribes. it's due to the whole reputation thing and how much that comes into play for pvpers too (as well as safe zones ofc). I can say with 100% confidence that if save zones were removed after the lag issues were fixed, I would have had a lot more fun building the city WHILE fighting with Pandemic...but due to the whole reputation thing, when we saw any random person we would politely whisper them to see who they were. almost never did we attack them. still, doesn't mean we don't want the option to have a potential enemy attack us on our land. however, i do see why safe zones are in for early prelude. it makes perfect sense. they just shouldn't stay.

[MrDDT]

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/32-Conflict-Death-Consequences-and-Decisions/page4/#34
This is a quote from March 2010. It was always planned like this, flee from combat, limited looting, consensual warfare. Stop saying that it has changed...it is simply not true.


Added after 7 minutes:


Can you please prove your statement with any kind of data ? We had so many polls about safe zones...in all polls the majority of the people wanted safe zones. All of these polls were started by PvPers who was thinking like you, and every time they were proved wrong.


This is what YOU don't understand. This has never been a PvP game, Jordi stated so many times that while Xsyon does have PvP it is NOT a PvP focused game. The driving force is not PvP, and every player will have the space for their gamestyle in the game. That is why he always planned the 'flee from fight' system, that is why he planned consensual warfare and limited looting, that is why we have so many skill and will have even more which are not related to PvP in any way.

Book is right. So many people stop reading when they see "FFA PvP" and they don't read the restrictions and conditions. And later when they do meet with these they start to complain.


Yep fleeing from combat was planned I agree.
Limited looting? Did I miss something here? I think you dont remember him saying full loot was in the game. So where do you see "limited" looting?
Consensual warfare? Again yes part of the plan of course with the fleeing, but not the ONLY part of the plan with how tribes were going to be. Safe zones were to be removed after prelude.

Polls are worthless first off, and second off, I agree with safe zones. So you saying that a poll would favor pvpers not wanting safezones is pretty crazy. Most pvpers understand the need for safezones. They dont understand safezones anywhere anytime.

Limited looting was NOT planned.

Full loot was planned with a push to WANT to not full loot with the choice being the players not a restriction.



Death results in some stat and skill loss and allows the victor to fully loot the player. This is not without complications and consequences for the victor.
- Carrying capacity is limited, so fully looting another player will not be practical.

BAM FULL LOOT. How can you be 100% wrong with your OWN LINK?
From your own link, and a real quote, another reason why you take something and you try to twist it to what you want. Truth is the game WAS planned how most PVPers like it.

Safe zones at the start so new players and the start of the game wouldnt be an all out gank fest. People would be allowed to build up.
Full looting FFA PVP game.
People able to flee easy from combat, so that skilled players, and newbs could choose their battles.


From what I just said, its a PVPers dream game with rare resources, contested totem areas etc. Which were ALL planned from the start.

Now we have, nothing is contested, safe zones anywhere anytime, perma player made safe zones btw. Looting which isnt perma, safe baskets littering the areas, and a combat system that is so broken no one wants it.

Yes it has changed totally.

[Larsa]

... I don't get how you DON'T understand, sandbox by definition is high risk PvP. ...I usually try to stay out of these discussions but I couldn't resist the quoted part of your post.

How, on hell and earth, can you have such a narrow view of the genre to claim that sandbox by definition is high risk PvP? That's a fundamentally screwed perception of reality.

Maybe, for you, personally, you don't enjoy games without high risk PvP and that would be a fair statement but stating that sandbox equals high risk PvP is just completely off.

[NorCalGooey]

Really? Name a sandbox game that has done well without conflict and political pvp being the driving force of sandbox game play? not to mention they all involve awesome risk/reward scenarios

You tell me what we are suppose to do then. Build all this stuff, craft all this stuff, and sit around in a circle jerk doing emotes? Fun.

It's not just my view, it's the view of successful sand box games. Again, history is an important thing to look at.

[MrDDT]

I usually try to stay out of these discussions but I couldn't resist the quoted part of your post.

How, on hell and earth, can you have such a narrow view of the genre to claim that sandbox by definition is high risk PvP? That's a fundamentally screwed perception of reality.

Maybe, for you, personally, you don't enjoy games without high risk PvP and that would be a fair statement but stating that sandbox equals high risk PvP is just completely off.


I dont know about the "high risk" part but yes a the truest sandbox game would have open pvp. 100% open.
Sandbox means able to do anything. Building, and killing wise. With as much as they can based around players making their own content.

Now, just because a game doesnt have PVP in it, doesnt mean it cant be a sandbox. But if you were to make a game as close as you can to the truest sense of the word sandbox. Open pvp would be part of that. As would many other things.
I wouldnt want to play a game thats 100% truest sandbox, as I believe its not the best workings for a game, nor my playstyle.

[NorCalGooey]

Well EVE is a little too high risk for me, but look how successful it is. It's not because it's a space game. It's the PVP system and freedom to lose and gain. Stuff in EVE has very high value, the reason Xsyon isn't high risk (even without safe zones) is that the gear isn't very valuable, currently.

Also, EVE is high risk because your ship is everything. It would be almost equivalent to losing your whole character in Xsyon. Except if you were rich or know people, since you keep all your skills you can just buy another ship. But it's still a dent to the wallet and there's only so many times you can lose a ship before its literally like perma death. No ISK, no ship. You have to know people to get back into the action. Still, look how successful that game is.

then look how successful Wurm is. haha

BOTH sandbox games. Again...what are we suppose to do currently in game? Aesthetic building/crafting and circle jerk. Yeah, you can also raise all your skills equally to try and get a lot of hit points, but what's the point in that without PVP? at the very least fun PVP monsters (not animals that are a pushover, monsters..this game is part fantasy after all)

[Jadzia]

@NorCalGooey: I'm sorry, but you saying you are absolutely sure about something is not a proof :) Can you provide ANY evidence that the majority of the playerbase were FFA PvPers who didn't want safe zones ?


I don't get how you DON'T understand, sandbox by definition is high risk PvP.
Very wrong. Atitd is a sandbox, and it has no PvP (actually no combat) at all. I'm sure all the sandboxes you played had high risk PvP, but that doesn't mean that the sandbox definition contains FFA PvP. Only means you have limited experience.

This is a quote from Jordi from an interview on massively:

Recently there seems to be a bit of a trend toward independently produced open-world games with sandbox elements and a heavy focus on PVP. What sets your game apart from titles like Darkfall or Mortal Online? Do you see PvP conflict as the driving force behind Xsyon?

What sets Xsyon apart is a focus on building and creating a new world and not relying on PvP as the driving force.


Its not me who is saying PvP is not the driving force in Xsyon. It is the developer.

@MrDDT: I didn't say the game is not full loot. I said it is limited. And it is limited and has always been planned to be limited by encumbrance and by looting timer.
FAQ page:
26.) Will I be able to loot?

Yes. There are loot restrictions based on your combat mode and a loot timer in place. Carrying capacity is also limited.

[Mactavendish]

The most interesting part of all these post, and the most telling, is the fact that in this thread we have the 2 MOST extreme elements in the game bickering with each other.

Neither side is willing to concede even the smallest little bit, both sides not only think they are correct in their view, but have developed such a lofty view of themselves as to feel they are superior to the other side in every way.

Get a grip folks!

First off, PvP does not have to be hack N slash, it can be done in so many other ways. Political, economic, control of resources, control of territory by just simply blocking access, or even but cornering a market.

This game is clearly supposed to have PVP. It is clearly meant to have full loot pvp or Jordi would not be fixing so called bugs to make that happen. So, sorry Jadzia, full loot pvp is a planned and a supported part of the game.

Second, a sandbox game is not defined by pvp in any way. It is a game with Non-linear game play. So please stop claiming that it has anything to do with PvE or PvP or any such nonsense. You guys have become little children on a playground arguing over whether the left or right swing is the "best".

Third, bickering over whether or not some aspect of the game has changed makes all side look foolish, since from the outset this game is DESIGNED to constantly change. It is a primary part of the game's vision and all Jordi is doing is following through with the plan.

The only people that really care about these argument, is the now 5 or 6 involved in the bickering. all but 2 of which don't even play anymore.

So...

Anyone reading this forum understands that, a few children are bickering... liek you see on most any forum, and that what they say does NOT represent the developer's view nor that of the actual paying and playing playerbase.

Move along now... NOTHING to see here.

[MrDDT]

@MrDDT: I didn't say the game is not full loot. I said it is limited. And it is limited and has always been planned to be limited by encumbrance and by looting timer.
FAQ page:
26.) Will I be able to loot?

Yes. There are loot restrictions based on your combat mode and a loot timer in place. Carrying capacity is also limited.

You are right, you did say "limited" and if that's the case ALL games are limited looting games, and full looting games according to your statement.
Limited looting by definition is NOT fully looting. I dont know how else to explain that.
I dont know why you are quoting me something from the FAQ when I quoted you Xsyon's own comment posted on the topic you are talking about. It says clear as day FULL LOOT.
We already know the game has changed, which is my whole point on the matter. Xsyon has been changed to carebear mode of what it once was. Hey, you should be happy. You got what you wanted. How is the game for you and your carebears with all your carebear changes? Doing great huh? I'm sure all these carebears are around still. Because of all the changes you guys got, the game should be great. I mean you guys must be just happy as a fat kid in a candy store because you got what you want. Carebear land. Oh wait. You dont like it? You guys are bored? Too much candy for the fat kids? Awww. I hate to say it, but. I TOLD YOU SO.

Its was FULL LOOT GAME, now its not. CHANGE.

Added after 7 minutes:


The most interesting part of all these post, and the most telling, is the fact that in this thread we have the 2 MOST extreme elements in the game bickering with each other.

Neither side is willing to concede even the smallest little bit, both sides not only think they are correct in their view, but have developed such a lofty view of themselves as to feel they are superior to the other side in every way.

Get a grip folks!

First off, PvP does not have to be hack N slash, it can be done in so many other ways. Political, economic, control of resources, control of territory by just simply blocking access, or even but cornering a market.

This game is clearly supposed to have PVP. It is clearly meant to have full loot pvp or Jordi would not be fixing so called bugs to make that happen. So, sorry Jadzia, full loot pvp is a planned and a supported part of the game.

Second, a sandbox game is not defined by pvp in any way. It is a game with Non-linear game play. So please stop claiming that it has anything to do with PvE or PvP or any such nonsense. You guys have become little children on a playground arguing over whether the left or right swing is the "best".

Third, bickering over whether or not some aspect of the game has changed makes all side look foolish, since from the outset this game is DESIGNED to constantly change. It is a primary part of the game's vision and all Jordi is doing is following through with the plan.

The only people that really care about these argument, is the now 5 or 6 involved in the bickering. all but 2 of which don't even play anymore.

So...

Anyone reading this forum understands that, a few children are bickering... liek you see on most any forum, and that what they say does NOT represent the developer's view nor that of the actual paying and playing playerbase.

Move along now... NOTHING to see here.


No its not just the 5 here. Many of us are the forum warriors of a group. Meaning, people ask us everyday "Hey whats going on in Xsyon, I stopped checking the forums about 6 months ago because there was nothing really being done" or whatever.

I just got a PM from someone on the forums, saying


I no longer play Xsyon but have not given up on the game. I check-up on the game by visiting the forums from time-to-time. I have been following the "Xsyon more like DF" thread with great interest. Just have to say, I agree with you 100% and enjoy reading your posts.

Keep up the fight! Someone has to.


About the PVP in sandbox games. I agreed already PVP doesnt have to be in a sandbox game, but if you want the truest sense of the world sandbox type of game, it would have 100% open pvp with only players controlling the outcome of the world events.
Only reason it would have PVP, is because there wouldnt be restrictions on forcing people to do stuff, or not do stuff. Hence the sandbox.
Now I already said, truest sandbox wouldnt be a game for me, and most think Im a PVPer type.

Im bickering because someone wont concede to the point the game has changed from what it started out. They keep wanting to say "This was the plan the whole time". Once we can get past the fact that it HAS changed you can then move onto why, and how it has effected the game. If you cant get people to agree on basic truths you cant have a debate.

It would be like trying to debate to you, that the moon is 10000000 km from the earth, but you wont admit that a mile is 1.609344 KM.
Its almost like they dont want to admit the basics in fear of what will come next.

[Jadzia]

You are right, you did say "limited" and if that's the case ALL games are limited looting games, and full looting games according to your statement.
Limited looting by definition is NOT fully looting. I dont know how else to explain that.
I dont know why you are quoting me something from the FAQ when I quoted you Xsyon's own comment posted on the topic you are talking about. It says clear as day FULL LOOT.
We already know the game has changed, which is my whole point on the matter. Xsyon has been changed to carebear mode of what it once was. Hey, you should be happy. You got what you wanted. How is the game for you and your carebears with all your carebear changes? Doing great huh? I'm sure all these carebears are around still. Because of all the changes you guys got, the game should be great. I mean you guys must be just happy as a fat kid in a candy store because you got what you want. Carebear land. Oh wait. You dont like it? You guys are bored? Too much candy for the fat kids? Awww. I hate to say it, but. I TOLD YOU SO.

Its was FULL LOOT GAME, now its not. CHANGE.


You are wrong again. The game is full loot, but it is limited. 3 guys kill someone they can fully loot him in 30 secs. You kill him alone then you probably won't be able to loot him in such a short time. This was planned from the very beginning.

NPCs currently don't currently steal loot, though it's something I've thought about and possible in the future.

When you die there is a limited time for looting. What's not looted will be on you when you revive. Friends can help you by quickly looting important items if you don't want your enemies to get to them.

This is a post from 28. February 2010. Nothing has changed.
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/95-A-few-questions/#7

[MrDDT]

You are wrong again. The game is full loot, but it is limited. 3 guys kill someone they can fully loot him in 30 secs. You kill him alone then you probably won't be able to loot him in such a short time. This was planned from the very beginning.


This is a post from 28. February 2010. Nothing has changed.
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/95-A-few-questions/#7

Limited time for looting doesnt mean its "limited" looting. It means its full loot with limited time.

Right now its NOT full loot, and its also limited time in when you can loot. Do you understand English?

I only need 30 seconds to fully loot someone if I were able to loot someone, however game restricts me from looting all the items, not because of time, but because of RESTRICTIONS. Like "You cant loot that item" or "You dont have permission".

Please focus and stop trying to twist stuff to favor your carebear version. This game right now is NOT full loot. 10000 guys looting someone in this game can NOT full loot someone, whether they had 30seconds or a million.

I love limited time looting, great system. I think it needs to be tweaked, but great system. It has NO effect on looting. Because there is no time factor on how fast I can loot an item.

[Jadzia]

Limited time for looting doesnt mean its "limited" looting. It means its full loot with limited time.

Right now its NOT full loot, and its also limited time in when you can loot. Do you understand English?

I only need 30 seconds to fully loot someone if I were able to loot someone, however game restricts me from looting all the items, not because of time, but because of RESTRICTIONS. Like "You cant loot that item" or "You dont have permission".

Please focus and stop trying to twist stuff to favor your carebear version. This game right now is NOT full loot. 10000 guys looting someone in this game can NOT full loot someone, whether they had 30seconds or a million.

I love limited time looting, great system. I think it needs to be tweaked, but great system. It has NO effect on looting. Because there is no time factor on how fast I can loot an item.

All right. I meant the game is planned to have full loot which is limited by looting timer and encumbrance. I remember PKers complaining about the looting timer and reporting it as a bug, lol.

Right now you can't loot fully but that is a bug, not something that they changed because anyone asked for it. In the update thread Xsyon said they are working on it and it will be fixed soon.

[MrDDT]

All right. I meant the game is planned to have full loot which is limited by looting timer and encumbrance. I remember PKers complaining about the looting timer and reporting it as a bug, lol.

Right now you can't loot fully but that is a bug, not something that they changed because anyone asked for it. In the update thread Xsyon said they are working on it and it will be fixed soon.

Many more problems than this one bug you are talking about that prevents full loot.

[mrwooj]

Im really getting sick of the constant arguing between MrDDT and Jadzia. I reckon you guys should get a room and make love not war

[Mactavendish]

I could not agree more Mrwooj

[China]

Perfectly stated MrWooj

It's so bad, I'm embarrassed for them.

[Dubanka]

Im really getting sick of the constant arguing between MrDDT and Jadzia. I reckon you guys should get a room and make love not war

i think they are actually married irl and this is just a lead up to 'pvp'

[Salvadore]

I guess, in a way, he did get jadzia to pvp after all! She swore she never would, and even though she quoed and twisted where someone said it wasn't allowed, it still happened anyway...

Lol

[Jadzia]

i think they are actually married irl and this is just a lead up to 'pvp'

What a scary thought, lol :D