What Xsyon Said...Yesterday

[Dubanka]

Since i know certain members of the community like to dredge up year+ old quotes to support current arguements about 'stuff'...Well here new material trumps old, or supports it, or redefines it, or just has me scratching my head.


Will the areas where mist is being removed be expansion totem lands? Or at least lands that have some sort of conflict and no safe zones?

The current plan is that they will be buildable as the current zones. We may expand to add some completely 'wild' zones but not with the first expansion. Placing a totem will reduce the chance of rare resources within a range of the totem.
I like the rare resource reduction inside the totem area. I HATE that the expansion area is merely the same ruleset as the existing area. This is bad bad bad bad. IMO.


I want an FFA/FL open world where the players are given the tools to alter the world, and then set loose. I want structures to be as safe as it gets.

Xsyon should be an open world, but not with attacking or destroying anything at all times.
Structures should have a level of safety, depending on defenses and choices made by players (alliances, choice to war or not etc.)..
Typical vague, somewhat contradictory response here. It's an open world, but not, or at least not all the time. Structures should be safe sometimes, maybe, depending upon choices made relevant to systems that haven't been designed yet. WTF? You can not provide an answer by using as yet undetermined / undefined systems as the primary explanation. That's like me saying i'm going to solve th world's energy problems by harnessing the limitless capabilities of a fusion based power system (the question is then,'...uhhh fusion power, how exactly are you goign to do that?' This type of answer just feeds to the 'what kind of game are we going to get' confusion based arguements.


I want siege mechanics to be one of, if not 'the' most difficult thing to achieve in the entire game. ie. The method by which you get past structures.

Siege mechanics have not been planned out yet. This was not part of the original design, and as I've stated before, it's something I'd like to add as many players have requested this. I want to first examine other games that successfully deal with siege systems..
This has been the pretty standard reply. The new piece was the examining part. There is only one game that has really done seiging well. it is currently being re-developed. If there are questions as to what you'd like to see in the system, please ask them...there are members of the community that have extensive experience on both the player and developer side of seige based systems. From the player end, we want the fairest system possible, because we know at some point we will be on both sides of the equation. IT SHOULD BE EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, TO BRING DOWN A FULLY FORTIFIED, WELL DEFENDED FORTRESS. Anyway, ask your playerbase, there really isn't that much out there that with a decent system...otherwise we'd be playing it and not prodding xsyon to implement a great one...


I want the ability to make peace (through war if necessary).

Yes, you should be able to make peace.
Grrrr. I would like to reverse global warming. Yes. wtf. I envision that a tribe will be able to make peace by doing this that or the other, that means of peace will not be limited to merely combat, but by doing blah or bleh or bluh. I mean seriously. Is there any wonder why we're at each other's throats on the forums. Yes.


I want the world to be able to change (areas become safe/unsafe through alliances/war dynamically, as the players carve out the world)

The world should change dynamically, as determined by players.
This is where the boggle comes in. How does the world change dynamically by the players? This was a very specific question, with some relevant examples / expectations given...with just a 'Yes' given in response. Yes+How would be nice. Yes tells us nothing.


I want communities to be able to enter into a state of victory with the opportunity, through hard work, to retain that state (victory being defined as: made safe by our own hands, for our people to enjoy).

Attaining 'victory' and maintaining safe zones through hard work (I think that's what you're getting at) is on the table.
Killin' me. How? How do you envision one obtains victory? What kind of hard work. There has been a ton of forum traffic on this subject, it would be nice to be able to channel along a direction.


Thanks to Trenchfoot for the relevant questions. Despite my commentary, thanks xsyon for responding...any response is great...at this point having a few more details would be better.

[NorCalGooey]

The reason we are at each others throats is very simple.

1) We disagree

but mostly

2) Vague answers leaving us scratching our heads as to what the hell it really means...so we just ramble on with our own interpretations of the vagueness.

[Mactavendish]

My following responses to your post are not designed to irritate you, but are intended to help you see another point of view.

to ME... Xsyon's reply's are in keeping with what I have always believed to be the way this game is and was supposed to be.

A game where blind ganking would not take place often if at all, where what WE did determined how safe or unsafe we were, and were WE could as a tribe or group could choose to participate in some aspect of the game or not, and be allowed to remain in that state unhindered by other groups that wanted to prevent that.

I know you don't believe that such a game will succeed and perhaps it won't, but I SURE want to see it happen and will stick around and see if I can help see it come to pass, by paying to play, giving feedback, and simply hope I get my wish.

ALSO: I fully understood this game would change in many ways as it is developed, that it was already a work in progress, was not complete, and would at times have broken pieces as they work on new ideas or try new systems. The fact they have a test server helps my perspective even more as I don't have to deal with many of the effects of improvement while I play.

[NorCalGooey]

While you may want the game to be one way, that's not really what this thread is about. It's about how SOME of the answers are too vague for us to know what he means, so we start debating the meaning in threads on here but we never really get anywhere but the same old arguments. It'd be nice for more clarification on the only issue that seems to matter right now, safe zones and his vision for the future of safe zones.

[Jadzia]

Funny thread, Dub :)
When I first read Trench's questions I was like poor guy...his intention is good but what answers he would get lol. If you want clear answers you have to ask much much more defined questions.


I want the ability to make peace (through war if necessary).
Like this. What answer did he expect...ok you want to make peace...sure you can. Shake the hand of your enemy, kiss him and its done. Or smoke a peace-pipe. Whatever :)


I want the world to be able to change (areas become safe/unsafe through alliances/war dynamically, as the players carve out the world)
Very vague question imo. You can change the world by simply moving to another place...where you play an aggressive evil character, you band together with your evil friends and there you go the area is much more unsafe now. The question doesn't force an answer about the game mechanics.

The first question was a well defined one, and he got a correct and clear answer.


I want communities to be able to enter into a state of victory with the opportunity, through hard work, to retain that state (victory being defined as: made safe by our own hands, for our people to enjoy).

Again very vague. What does victory mean in Xsyon ? What does victory mean for Trench ? I don't know. Communities entering the state of victory...is that a victory if a tribe wins the fight over one of his enemy tribes ? Or only victory if they win the fight over all of their enemies ? Or only victory if they can conquer and rule even the peaceful tribes who never attacked them ?

The answer for the second part is clear imo : maintaining safe zone through hard work. Aka paying upkeep for safe zones, or paying a price for he expansion of the safe zone.

Even the word 'safe' doesn't mean the same for us. For me it means that something cannot be attacked, destroyed, looted, killed, anything. Safe. For Trench I guess it means something different...something that can be attacked but he has to protect it...I guess. That means totally unsafety for me.

Edit: another example for a question which will result a vague answer:


1a) Well you did have an idea that meant permanent safe zones, but is this still the plan to go forward with that specific idea to restrict rather than to give options to protect yourself?
to protect yourself...what does it mean ? If I can build walls and gates which give me 100% protection then I protected myself. But again I'm pretty sure VeryWiiTee didn't mean that.
So even if the answer was: yes later on you have to work to protect yourself, again we wouldn't know if that means 100% safe walls and gates or it means that we have to fight to keep these walls up.


So my conclusion is: we need much more specific questions if we want clear answers.

[Osirrus]

+1

Absolutely spot on Dub.

but i am starting to think that xsyon and his team have no idea how the new systems will be implemented themselves!

that is why we are getting vague answers.

everybody always seems completely focused on the current issue whatever it may be.. lag/animal/pvp

what i would love to see is a complete road map of the next 2 years or so (no need to actually date anything)

we all want to know what sytems are going to be worked on next and how the mechanics are going to work. Not 3 hours after it has gone live on the server, but months in advance. have a cleary defined goal of what you want the game to be(at the moment i dont think even Xsyon knows)and plan for it in full detail of how everything will interact with everything else.

[MrDDT]

I dont care about a road map, I care about updates in the game.
If this next update comes into the game, and its working well, people will play, people will adapt.
If you dont like the direction the game is heading, then quit, or post your ideas on the forums and maybe people will agree with you. Its clear the devs listen.

Right now the game is very boring, and people have already dropped off like flies. With the next update depending on how its done with regards to contested stuff, and rare resources. Well make the game fun for a lot of people with the desync combat issue fixed. M&B combat, and rares having an effect on crafted stuff. All will give people focus, and bring the fun factor back into the game.

How you control contested areas, how many contested areas, how much open pvp, and safe zones all over the map, will effect who is playing, but at least there will be a lot more.

I believe you CAN please most of the carebears, and most of the PVPers at the same time. But really that shouldnt be the goal right now. The goal I believe is to get a working fun game for people. Balance and work out the details later.

[Osirrus]

I dont care about a road map, I care about updates in the game.
If this next update comes into the game, and its working well, people will play, people will adapt.
If you dont like the direction the game is heading, then quit, or post your ideas on the forums and maybe people will agree with you. Its clear the devs listen.

Right now the game is very boring, and people have already dropped off like flies. With the next update depending on how its done with regards to contested stuff, and rare resources. Well make the game fun for a lot of people with the desync combat issue fixed. M&B combat, and rares having an effect on crafted stuff. All will give people focus, and bring the fun factor back into the game.

How you control contested areas, how many contested areas, how much open pvp, and safe zones all over the map, will effect who is playing, but at least there will be a lot more.

I believe you CAN please most of the carebears, and most of the PVPers at the same time. But really that shouldnt be the goal right now. The goal I believe is to get a working fun game for people. Balance and work out the details later.

thats not what this thread is about DDT, ofc we all want the new patch in asap.

but this thread is about the vagueness of replies.

do try to stay on topic old chap.

[Trenchfoot]

@Dub

Right on.

Here's my private interpretation.


1. It's difficult to answer this as these aren't all statements that I've made about the game, but I'll try.
2. Xsyon should be an open world, but not with attacking or destroying anything at all times.
3. Structures should have a level of safety, depending on defenses and choices made by players (alliances, choice to war or not etc.).
4. Siege mechanics have not been planned out yet. This was not part of the original design, and as I've stated before, it's something I'd like to add as many players have requested this. I want to first examine other games that successfully deal with siege systems.
5. Yes, you should be able to make peace.
6. Achievements should server different purposes, whether they provide something useful or are just for bragging rights.
7. Enemies should be formidable (and we will make creatures stronger soon, they are increasing in power, but not fast enough).
8. Xsyon should be a zone free seamless world.
9. The world should change dynamically, as determined by players.
10. Attaining 'victory' and maintaining safe zones through hard work (I think that's what you're getting at) is on the table.

1. Of course, the questions were sort of 'loaded' from Xsyons perspective. Also, my statements as to what I want had nothing to do with what or what hasn't been said. It was simply to establish what I am looking for in a game, regardless of previous statements. It was the same as asking 'Am I going to get some all or none of what I personally want out of this game?'.

2. This statement is highly likely to conflict with the answer to 8. How will this be achieved?

3. If this means 'walls are as safe as it gets', but with the caveat that if you choose to be a warring tribe your walls will be easier to breach, I might be able to live with that.

4. The mere fact that walls are designed into the game to begin with lends itself to the idea of sieges. This idea is reenforced by the fact that everywhere outside the walls is FFA PVP. I'm saying that because I want the devs to know that this is sort of confusing to me, not that I want to argue a point. If walls were never meant to be besieged, and were simply a mechanism to establish safe zones, then this can make more sense to me.

5. I expected this one. It was a loaded question to see how confident the devs are about their planned solution to the issues of waging war. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I'll take this to mean 'We're just getting our sea legs on this issue'.

6. Worse case this means 'Conflict will serve no other purpose than conflict.'. Best case this statement can make sense as long as 'something useful' doesn't mean 'something useful to have an advantage in gaining more bragging rights'. Something useful for what?

7. I think he misunderstood this one. Though I like that they're making creatures tougher. I meant my human opponents. ie. If I play evil I want good to be a 'real' threat not gimped so we can just run the server. Likewise if I play good, I don't want a gimped brady bunch sort of evil that I can toy with at my leisure.

8. I love this statement, but it doesn't make sense to me in light of answer 2. and 3.

9. Great! Now if we can make this jive with 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. and 7. I'll have more confidence in this statement.

10. Yes that was part of what I was getting at. I asked this mainly to address the death problem. I can't enter into a victory by killing my enemies, because they just respawn. So something has to be in place where I can achieve a level of definitive victory over them. ie. pull their I teeth and claws so they are no longer a threat until they go off somewhere and grow them back.

[NorCalGooey]

Funny thread, Dub :)
When I first read Trench's questions I was like poor guy...his intention is good but what answers he would get lol. If you want clear answers you have to ask much much more defined questions.


Like this. What answer did he expect...ok you want to make peace...sure you can. Shake the hand of your enemy, kiss him and its done. Or smoke a peace-pipe. Whatever :)


Very vague question imo. You can change the world by simply moving to another place...where you play an aggressive evil character, you band together with your evil friends and there you go the area is much more unsafe now. The question doesn't force an answer about the game mechanics.

The first question was a well defined one, and he got a correct and clear answer.



Again very vague. What does victory mean in Xsyon ? What does victory mean for Trench ? I don't know. Communities entering the state of victory...is that a victory if a tribe wins the fight over one of his enemy tribes ? Or only victory if they win the fight over all of their enemies ? Or only victory if they can conquer and rule even the peaceful tribes who never attacked them ?

The answer for the second part is clear imo : maintaining safe zone through hard work. Aka paying upkeep for safe zones, or paying a price for he expansion of the safe zone.

Even the word 'safe' doesn't mean the same for us. For me it means that something cannot be attacked, destroyed, looted, killed, anything. Safe. For Trench I guess it means something different...something that can be attacked but he has to protect it...I guess. That means totally unsafety for me.

Edit: another example for a question which will result a vague answer:

to protect yourself...what does it mean ? If I can build walls and gates which give me 100% protection then I protected myself. But again I'm pretty sure VeryWiiTee didn't mean that.
So even if the answer was: yes later on you have to work to protect yourself, again we wouldn't know if that means 100% safe walls and gates or it means that we have to fight to keep these walls up.

So my conclusion is: we need much more specific questions if we want clear answers.

I agree the vagueness goes both ways. But there is definitely detailed and well thought out questions people have asked that get an answer that seem to dodge the question. Examples Dub provided aren't the greatest

[Book]

Perhaps he's implementing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_%28development%29

to game design?

Vague so as to not lock into a position prematurely?

I have to admit, the "you should be able to make peace" response made me smirk.

I do feel clarificated (<--- not a word) with regard to the new zones being opened up and how that's going to affect things.
Feels like a compromise to me in a sense, yes there are safe zones, but no safe zones will not be placed directly on top of rares.

Thus, there's still the safety but there's also a reason to fight when you get to the rares position... that's different than what we have in the current zones, but a step in the direction many were asking for. Not a leap perhaps, but certainly a step.

To make the new zones be fully contestable so then people can wait as long as it takes to implement the siege mechanics? That wouldn't really be productive either would it?

At some point I'd like to do the math on what percentage of the whole map 50 zones will be. My guess is maybe not that much which opens the possibility for different things in the future... which will be determined when that future comes closer to the present than it is now.

If people do come back with the combat fixes and new zones and other things... Some will pick up their current totems and move to a new location which will also open up the current part of the map... it's a process.

Dub omitted the first part of the answer that points out some of the things Trench was saying were not things Xsyon ever said would happen. I found that telling if you combine it with Xsyon's bio in which he says he wanted to create the game he's wanted to play since he first sat down at a computer...
Player input is obviously taken into consideration, look at thirst and hunger, BUT, at the end of the day, the man is working on the vision he originally wanted to develop. All things will remain in that context.

I personally find that very encouraging and reassuring.

[Dubanka]

I agree the vagueness goes both ways. But there is definitely detailed and well thought out questions people have asked that get an answer that seem to dodge the question. Examples Dub provided aren't the greatest

i was lazy and just pulled them out of one place :p

perhaps not the best examples, but examples none the less.


My following responses to your post are not designed to irritate you, but are intended to help you see another point of view.

to ME... Xsyon's reply's are in keeping with what I have always believed to be the way this game is and was supposed to be.


and mac, i don't get irritated by internet forum play :) it's actually entertaining...especially when you prove exactly the point i'm making. When the devs posts an official response in this vague circular style it allow everyone to see their own ideas in it. You think he's talking to you. I think he's talking to me. This is all good...except for the fact that our desired end state are kinda sorta opposite each other.

The obtuse vagueness is great for early design, pre-build, early alpha marketing snippets on mmorpg.com or the like...when you are trying to drum up interest and create a following. When you want everyone to see what they want to see in your product. We're passed that. I'm pretty sure there is a plan in there somewhere, and that this isn't all just from the hip...it would be nice to get answers to questions based upon what you are going to do, or the options that are being considered in handling an issue. Those would be answers to questions as opposed to responses to questioins.

smiley face.

[Mactavendish]

Actually Appollo I am sticking to the intent of the topic.

What Dub is saying is they are vague answers, What I'm saying is that I understand the nature of what they are attempting and fully understand they cannot give some folks the answers that will satisfy them. ( I didn't realize you were the forum monitor )

I have to answer similar questions to these everyday. I easily understand how ( at times ) you just cannot answer a question directly if you are unsure whether or not you can stand by your answer for whatever reason. Also saying something like "it's on the table" tells me that it has been suggested, but has NOT been decided one way or the other.

If you don't like that, it's ok... won't change anything .. but it's ok.

[Jadzia]

I agree the vagueness goes both ways. But there is definitely detailed and well thought out questions people have asked that get an answer that seem to dodge the question. Examples Dub provided aren't the greatest

No doubt :) Thats why I said : The question doesn't force an answer about the game mechanics. Xsyon does like to give vague answers... I don't know if intentionally (sometimes for sure) or it is in his nature. That's why we have to ask very specific questions which are hard to answer in a vague way :)


8. Xsyon should be a zone free seamless world.
Trench I believe he meant that the game won't have loading zones, teleport gates and so on.

[Dubanka]

Actually Appollo I am sticking to the intent of the topic.

What Dub is saying is they are vague answers, What I'm saying is that I understand the nature of what they are attempting and fully understand they cannot give some folks the answers that will satisfy them. ( I didn't realize you were the forum monitor )

I have to answer similar questions to these everyday. I easily understand how ( at times ) you just cannot answer a question directly if you are unsure whether or not you can stand by your answer for whatever reason. Also saying something like "it's on the table" tells me that it has been suggested, but has NOT been decided one way or the other.

If you don't like that, it's ok... won't change anything .. but it's ok.

i understand them too...and i undstand i can perceive them in any number of ways depending upon which hat i want to wear.

I could see your point if the person answering with the community liaison...the PR guy...the marketing...whatever...the guy that has a script to follow, that knows what (s)he has been told to say, and whether or not they know more (or think they do at least) they would not be at liberty to divulge it. But we're talking now about the man with the plan. I'd like to hope he has a very specific idea of exactly what he wants to implement and exactly how he wants to implement...exception being for those things that he's still figuring out (like siege).

Heck it's the man, if it's still being worked out, say so. '...That issue is still beign worked on. Right now we're wrestling with how we incorporate elements a b and c, while still keeping y and z relevant aspects to the game...' THAT would be informative, and insightful...and a lot better than, Yes, you will be able to make peace....duuuuuude passs the pipe....we're gonna make peeeeeace.


No doubt :) Trench I believe he meant that the game won't have loading zones, teleport gates and so on.

yeah he took seamless world to mean non-zoned, non-instanced.

[Trenchfoot]

yeah he took seamless world to mean non-zoned, non-instanced.

That's OK. It was my full intention to give him room to express his ideas without committing to a specific feature. Now we can clarify the question.

To me this is more about ideas than finished features. If I can get behind your ideas, I can stick around and support you through their implementation. As a paying customer if I don't think I'll enjoy your ideas, talking about implementation is pointless, and the marriage is off. Not knowing what your ideas are is equal to 'thinking I won't enjoy your ideas'. Which gives Xsyon 2 ways to loose my sub, and one way to keep it. I would think that having one way to loose my sub, and one way to keep it would be a safer bet.

What I'm really looking for is a basis for me to continue supporting this game, and to avoid paying for and putting forth effort towards, something I won't enjoy.

[Xsyon]

Hello everyone,

I just skimmed this thread and haven't read through all replies. I knew my answers to these questions would be criticized. I did find the questions to be loaded and vague and I can't give better answers.

Maybe some of the questions are just not clear to me. For example, the game is a zone free seamless world. To me, that's a physical aspect of the world (no instances) which how the game is now. The world changes dynamically... it already does as players deplete resources, change the land and will soon be able to plant trees and create resources as well.

We don't have a set in stone 'roadmap' for the next two years and many of these things some of you are pushing for are not designed and were not part of our original design. We do have many plans and things designed that I have not and will not yet announce until it makes sense to do so. Some things will change and some will be dropped if they don't make sense to implement as time goes on.

The game world evolves with players, as I've stated before. I try to answer these questions as best as possible. If the questions are not specific enough or are asking about things that we haven't yet designed (such as a siege system) I really can't answer with details. That's the nature of this project and especially the 'prelude' phase, to listen, adapt and change the game. I hope that helps, we're just going one step at a time here.

[Dubanka]

Thank you for jumping in...i can understand your point on vague question gets vague response.

Can i question on your response?
Xsyon should be an open world, but not with attacking or destroying anything at all times.
Structures should have a level of safety, depending on defenses and choices made by players (alliances, choice to war or not etc.)
This means a lot of different things to the different groups. By 'not attack or destroying anything at all times'....are you implying that players (and their stuff) should have the ability to be absolutely safe if they choose, or are you meaning that anything may be vulnerable, but not all the time (ie. only during certain windows? Or did you mean something else.


The world should change dynamically, as determined by players.
Again, this means different things. For the more militant among us, this means that i should be able to raid, conquer and control the world, shaping it to my warped and twisted vision if i have the strength and will to do so...for 'us' the means safe zones are going away, that at some point we will have an entire world that is up for grabs...after all, how can i dynamically shape the world if 90% of it is under the safety of someones personal totem protection? Obviously the more meek ;) see this as the ability to build monuments and castles and roads and cover the world in quilts and grass tarps...they will change it dynamically by covering their mud hut in a PURPLE BLANKET this week (can i get whoo hooo from the party people in the back?). SO, what exactly do you mean by 'dynamically change'...the macro political/economic/military version, or the micro 'make my wall color match my mud hut' version :)

again, thanks for jumping in.

[JCatano]

Dropping safety totems on new areas causing a lower chance of rare resources is a huge fail, in my opinion.

Macro inside the safe zone, or step just outside of the perimeter and have a the full chance of success while being able to move right back across the invulnerable line if attacked.

[Trenchfoot]

For the more militant among us, this means that i should be able to raid, conquer and control the world, shaping it to my warped and twisted vision if i have the strength and will to do so.

I would add 'conquer and control the world, shaping it to my vision of balance and order, if WE have the strength to do so.

Conquest remains restricted to a numerous consensus of players. Therefore the 'WE'. No one person or even a handful will ever be able to conquer the map. To me, conquest is a feature that serves the purpose of settling disputes. ie. I'm against conquest for conquest sake. I favor a world where someone generally has to want something from you first, then conquest is a result of that. For some it will be because they want your land/resources/compliance with an issue they have with you. Not, hey let's get together and conquer a town this Saturday night what do you say?..

I would immensely enjoy a system where the following occurs:

Bob is the village asshat. He makes it tough to get along with him as a neighbor. I've fought with and killed Bob many times for many different reasons. We bicker and argue all the time. But Bobs tribe doesn't besiege my tribe. Other than petty squabbles, our tribes do a fair amount of trade or even indirect trade. Maybe Bobs tribe brings something into the area that also enhances something I bring to the area.

A large invading force comes into our neighborhood and besieges Bob and his tribes castle. I generally loathe Bob. I might even chuckle a bit that he's under the gun. But if Bobs tribe which is larger than my tribe can be successfully raided, that means I'm probably next. Which gives me and Bob a single issue to come together on. And that is 'Don't come to this neighborhood looking for trouble because you'll get it from all of us.'.

This is what I want to see. Communities that are so invested in one another, that the consequences of one tribe going to war ripples throughout the player base. So that everyone has a stake in making a careful choice which causes to take up collectively.

This gives a great dynamic to leadership I think is missing in many other games. That the player base can take on the role of leader and convince enough people to join their cause as to become a force to accomplishing that cause. Which is what it would take for conquest of anything other than a small area.

That's how I see conquest when I talk about it.

[MrDDT]

Dropping safety totems on new areas causing a lower chance of rare resources is a huge fail, in my opinion.

Macro inside the safe zone, or step just outside of the perimeter and have a the full chance of success while being able to move right back across the invulnerable line if attacked.

Carebears will love this, til they are like. "There is nothing to do in game, Im so bored" "No one wants to trade, everyone has everything they need or ever want" "Resources are too easy to get, way to common"

I mean, havnt we heard enough of this already? Do we really need to keep making the same mistakes over and over again?
But again the few squeaky wheel carebears on the forums, they know best right? More safe totem areas please to fix the issue we are having with too many safe totem areas.

[Book]

Carebears will love this, til they are like. "There is nothing to do in game, Im so bored" "No one wants to trade, everyone has everything they need or ever want" "Resources are too easy to get, way to common"

I mean, havnt we heard enough of this already? Do we really need to keep making the same mistakes over and over again?
But again the few squeaky wheel carebears on the forums, they know best right? More safe totem areas please to fix the issue we are having with too many safe totem areas.

The gripes you mentioned there have been uttered by more than a few who wouldn't take pride in carebearhoodishness... and didn't we already address the squeaky wheels? So long as they squeak equally, the cart can move forward without deviating. Seems to me there's plenty of squeak to go around.

"There's nothing to fight over!" I think this could be considered an attempt to address that. I mean, if you hang out by a rare spot, chances are you'll find someone to pummel.

Will rare spots be rare? Who knows, I don't, you don't, well someone does know but we'll never get it out of them.

Will someone be able to run from a rare spot to their totem? Could be, how heavy is the rare? Anyone know?

How far will the rares be from the totems? Anyone know?

Today is Smurf Day... Anyone know that? Yup, Peyo's birthday is apparently today. Also learned there's apparently THREE lady smurfs. That alone rocked my world.

Must go finish my purple quilt ftw...

btw, we're talking about 50 expansion zones out of how many? This you might actually know, I haven't bothered to count. :) What you don't know is what the remainder of the expansion zones will look like. I don't know that either. I might even say nobody actually knows that one :) I don't even know that these 50 are permanently going to be like this... we don't know anything, except of course that the real name for smurfs is actually Schtroumpfs. Bet you didn't know that huh.

[NorCalGooey]

The gripes you mentioned there have been uttered by more than a few who wouldn't take pride in carebearhoodishness... and didn't we already address the squeaky wheels? So long as they squeak equally, the cart can move forward without deviating. Seems to me there's plenty of squeak to go around.

"There's nothing to fight over!" I think this could be considered an attempt to address that. I mean, if you hang out by a rare spot, chances are you'll find someone to pummel.

Will rare spots be rare? Who knows, I don't, you don't, well someone does know but we'll never get it out of them.

Will someone be able to run from a rare spot to their totem? Could be, how heavy is the rare? Anyone know?

How far will the rares be from the totems? Anyone know?

Today is Smurf Day... Anyone know that? Yup, Peyo's birthday is apparently today. Also learned there's apparently THREE lady smurfs. That alone rocked my world.

Must go finish my purple quilt ftw...

btw, we're talking about 50 expansion zones out of how many? This you might actually know, I haven't bothered to count. :) What you don't know is what the remainder of the expansion zones will look like. I don't know that either. I might even say nobody actually knows that one :) I don't even know that these 50 are permanently going to be like this... we don't know anything, except of course that the real name for smurfs is actually Schtroumpfs. Bet you didn't know that huh.

That's DDTs whole point. Their cannot be safe totems on rare resources, or even within a few hundred meters. It just won't work. It will make the rare resources SIGNIFICANTLY less rare. Half a zone of running (500m) to the rare resources sounds balanced enough. That's not too far for the care bears is it? I thought I was being generous with the 500m suggestion.

[Trenchfoot]

However far you set that distance to, that's exactly where the safe zones will sit. As many as can exists, all around the rim. People will fight more over that rim spot than they will the resources. Oh wait, they won't be able to fight for those! I guess it's first come first served.

[Jadzia]

It seems to me that Xsyon doesn't plan rare resource hubs. He plans the normal junkpiles to produce rare stuffs time by time...they will be rare no matter what, not depending on safe zones or whatever. If a recipe pops up once in a month then it will be rare no matter if you gathered it in a safe zone or outside.

I guess the goal was to make people spend more time outside of their safe zones gathering stuffs since the chance to get something rare will be definitely higher out in the world.

[MrDDT]

It seems to me that Xsyon doesn't plan rare resource hubs. He plans the normal junkpiles to produce rare stuffs time by time...they will be rare no matter what, not depending on safe zones or whatever. If a recipe pops up once in a month then it will be rare no matter if you gathered it in a safe zone or outside.

I guess the goal was to make people spend more time outside of their safe zones gathering stuffs since the chance to get something rare will be definitely higher out in the world.

Thing is, I dont see his plan forcing people outside the safe totem area. Even if it did, moving 2 feet into safe totem area is pretty freaking easy, and he plans it to be easy to get away.

[NorCalGooey]

You guys are so defensive it's ridiculous. I'm saying IF it goes the way we've heard it's planned (safe zones on rare resources). Not saying that's how it will be. Troll bait? Dude, so far Xsyon has said NOTHING about restrictions on where you can place the safe zones in the new lands. So we are going to assume all 50 zones can have totems placed. By rare resources people didn't just mean "add more human heads to scavenging". They meant rare resource hubs where no safe zones can be placed. To gather these rare resources you have to risk death (you can even go naked and risk nothing other than death..honestly). I'm not hating on care bears, I'm saying that even 500m is too much for most of them. They want safe zones ON rare resources.

edit: i guess book deleted his post

[Jadzia]

Thing is, I dont see his plan forcing people outside the safe totem area. Even if it did, moving 2 feet into safe totem area is pretty freaking easy, and he plans it to be easy to get away.

Getting a rare stuff will have much less chance inside a safe zone so I guess people will be out to gather...and not everyone lives 2 feet from a junkpile. But all this is irrelevant from the point of if it is rare or not.

[Dubanka]

It seems to me that Xsyon doesn't plan rare resource hubs. He plans the normal junkpiles to produce rare stuffs time by time...they will be rare no matter what, not depending on safe zones or whatever. If a recipe pops up once in a month then it will be rare no matter if you gathered it in a safe zone or outside.

I guess the goal was to make people spend more time outside of their safe zones gathering stuffs since the chance to get something rare will be definitely higher out in the world.

i think design wise, you get more people venturing out if they KNOW spot A gives ubersuperduperthingamajig on a regular basis...much more than, uh, this huge area gives out the ubersuperduperthingamajig 1 out of every 1000 attempts.

EXAMPLE: In shadowbane they did a thing called 'hot zones'. in hotzones you got double xp, and rare things (stat runes, resources, etc) dropped on a very frequent basis. certain areas (ie. the expansion zones that had the expansion resources that were required to make all hi end armor and weapons) had much much higher populations during their hot zone periods. The zones still dropped the stuff when they werent hot zones, but were typically pretty empty excepting leveling groups. During hot zone windows they were flooded with people trying to gather the drops or gather the players trying to gather the drops. Summary: no hotzone...empty area...not worth someones time for a 1:1000 drop, with hotzone, full area, as drop rate was dramatically increased.

make a zone where the resource drops.
make the drop rate increase as you approach the interior.
dont allow players to plant totems in that zone.
every zone around that area gets active as players jockey for totem spots and try to pick off players headed to the expansion zone.
the actual zone becomes really active as players try to gather the resource, gather the gathers or protect gatherers from the gatherer gatherers.

[Book]

You guys are so defensive it's ridiculous. I'm saying IF it goes the way we've heard it's planned (safe zones on rare resources). Not saying that's how it will be. Troll bait? Dude, so far Xsyon has said NOTHING about restrictions on where you can place the safe zones in the new lands. By rare resources people didn't just mean "add more human heads to scavenging". They meant rare resource hubs where no safe zones can be placed. To gather these rare resources you have to risk death (you can even go naked and risk nothing other than death..honestly).

lol, I deleted my post because it seems I misunderstood what Xsyon's plan was. My understanding was what you're saying, rare things like tar and/or other things that we don't know about yet.

If you take tar for instance, that is heavy! I was thinking we didn't know what rares he meant in particular and how heavy it would be. We didn't know how far he meant. Depends on implementation which we don't know enough about (I thought) but it sounded to me like he was doing this because he heard what people were saying and thus adapted in a way that would have a chance to work.

As far as being defensive. You can't possibly imagine how insanely sick and tired I am of hearing this "carebear this" "carebear that" crap over and over when someone doesn't get what he wants. It's beyond old. Pisses me off. Or did you not think carebears ever got pissed? You'd be surprised the teeth on them things and a number of them are actually barely rehabilitated axe murderers.

Edit: what I thought was going to happen in the 50 expansion areas is what Dub is talking about above... is everyone in agreement that this is in fact NOT what Xsyon was saying? I don't feel like digging through the posts to re-read cuz BC2 is calling... help me out here.

[Xsyon]

Before this gets out of hand, I need to clarify a few things.

Rare materials are distributed throughout the world, so no one will be able to set camp and gather all the rare resources they want from nearby areas. They will have to explore, trade or set up quests for others to bring them what they need. There is also a distribution of common items. The best quality leather and bones will be gathered only through hunting. So there will be plenty of reasons to risk exploration.

The farther away from safe zones the greater the chance of finding rare resources, the closer to safe zones, there is less of a chance. There isn't a border or rim at the edge of a safe zone between 'easy' and 'hard' to find rare resources.

When we add expansion claim totems, these will increase the chance of rare items being found, in essence creating resource nodes.

[Dubanka]

Edit: what I thought was going to happen in the 50 expansion areas is what Dub is talking about above... is everyone in agreement that this is in fact NOT what Xsyon was saying? I don't feel like digging through the posts to re-read cuz BC2 is calling... help me out here.

correct, what i mention is exactly what is not happening. What is happening is no different than now, just in the expansion areas, you'll now have an opportunity to scavenge a rare resource...in the expansion zones.

so yes. 50 new zones. potentiallly all with rare resources. I'm trembling with excitement. That means each active player will get their own personal zone to play in :p

[ifireallymust]

I actually would prefer that new zones not have safe totems in them, but if siege mechanics aren't ready to roll out, I see why there's no point in allowing people to build minus the safe zone. Most wouldn't anyway, they'll just gather what they want, then die their way back to their totem (unless they start suffering some pretty harsh death penalties for doing that). Being static without being able to build anything defensible would be to open oneself up to constant harassment.

So given that, I personally would rather see new areas not be open to settlement but instead be open pvp areas until and unless sieges and fortification and all that good stuff are in. Guess I'm siding with the pew pew crowd on this one.

[Trenchfoot]

@Xsyon

Thank you for the clarification.

[ifireallymust]

@Xsyon

Thank you for the clarification.


Could certainly make things interesting in the less populated areas.

[Book]

AH, I think I'm getting it.

So in the expansion zones coming up, if I find a junk pile, it's actually in my best interest to NOT drop a safe zone anywhere near it so I will have a better chance for finding rare things. It's also better for me to go far away from my safe zone entirely, leaving me more vulnerable to attack.

So someone, in theory, who didn't really care much about finding a rare but wanted to be more of a thief... could go set up shop in the new zones and make a killing (bad pun, I know.) He/she won't care about having a safe zone there, and I would be far from mine to get more rares... It would suddenly make more sense for someone to come out and kill a stranger on a nearby junkpile as there's a much better chance they're carrying a rare if you've never seen them before...

[Xsyon]

Rare resources (and even some common scavenged resources) will be distrubuted throughout the world, not just the new zones. The key is the distribution. You won't be able to sit in one place and gather all you need, which is what some of you are worried about. It will have to be obtained through travel, trade or questing.

Yes, Book, exactly.

[ifireallymust]

This should liven things up and give the pker crowd some moving targets. I better go put some more points into stealth. Still not quite sneaky enough yet to get past them, and I sure as heck can't bludgeon them to death with my fantastic crafting skills.

[MrDDT]

Thanks Xsyon for the update. Cant wait to see how it really is once its put into the game.

[Trenchfoot]

It's an interesting mechanic that's for sure.

Some people might say 'It draws pvp/foreigners to your door step.'? hehe

I wonder....

If I made two alt tribes far apart, then the members of each tribe swap home towns so rares are right outside their door would work? ie. belong to tribe X, but live in tribe Y's town.

[Jadzia]

Rare resources (and even some common scavenged resources) will be distrubuted throughout the world, not just the new zones. The key is the distribution. You won't be able to sit in one place and gather all you need, which is what some of you are worried about. It will have to be obtained through travel, trade or questing.

Yes, Book, exactly.

Sounds good, it will boost trading I hope :) Now we just need a trade channel or some other way to communicate with players in the other side of the world...


I wonder....

If I made two alt tribes far apart, then the members of each tribe swap home towns so rares are right outside their door would work? ie. belong to tribe X, but live in tribe Y's town.
It wouldn't work. If you are a member of tribe X, then the city of tribe Y doesn't give any benefits for you. No safe zone for you, you can't even drop a basket in their area.

[Trenchfoot]

It wouldn't work. If you are a member of tribe X, then the city of tribe Y doesn't give any benefits for you. No safe zone for you, you can't even drop a basket in their area.

So a rare trade agreement would be out of the question? ie. I send some guys from our tribe to live with you. They hand you resources and operate out of your town as their base (your town has gates right?). In exchange you send some guys over to our tribe, and they hand us resources and operate out of our town.

[Jadzia]

So a rare trade agreement would be out of the question? ie. I send some guys from our tribe to live with you. They hand you resources and operate out of your town as their base (your town has gates right?). In exchange you send some guys over to our tribe, and they hand us resources and operate out of our town.

Thats an interesting idea. It wouldn't be very convenient (someone from the tribe has to be online to take the resources) but it can work for now I guess. When they implement comfort that would make it harder....if you have to sleep in a tent to get a good condition.

And it depends on how rare those stuffs will be...if you have to live far from home for a month to get 1 rare thing that wouldn't make this too common.

[Trenchfoot]

It wouldn't be very convenient (someone from the tribe has to be online to take the resources) but it can work for now I guess. When they implement comfort that would make it harder....if you have to sleep in a tent to get a good condition.

It has the potential to be extremely convenient, depending upon the benefit of having rares. And why can't I sleep in my neighbors tent and be just as rested? As long as they let me in.

[Jadzia]

It has the potential to be extremely convenient, depending upon the benefit of having rares. And why can't I sleep in my neighbors tent and be just as rested? As long as they let me in.

Well if there will be an option to give access to use my stuffs you can. Right now I can't give any permission for friends to use baskets or anything in my area.

But anyway, whats wrong with this ? If 2 friendly tribe changes workers so what...the workers will be unsafe, and the rare stuffs will remain rare. Rarity doesn't depend on the safety of the gatherer. If you like to spend weeks on your friend's doormat then you are free to do so I guess.

[Trenchfoot]

@Jadz

I'm just trying to explore the idea.

OK so rares are based on distance from 'any and all' safe zones, or just your own? If 'any and all' safe zones, will I be able to plant a safe totem to lower my neighbors property value so to speak?

Or I guess there will now have to be pvp zones (places you can't place safe totems at all)?

[Jadzia]

@Jadz

I'm just trying to explore the idea.

OK so rares are based on distance from 'any and all' safe zones, or just your own? If 'any and all' safe zones, will I be able to plant a safe totem to lower my neighbors property value so to speak?

Or I guess there will now have to be pvp zones (places you can't place safe totems at all)?

In my understanding I can't find rare resources inside and nearby my own tribe zone. Others' zones doesn't matter. But this is just how I understood it, so I might be wrong.

[NorCalGooey]

Before this gets out of hand, I need to clarify a few things.

Rare materials are distributed throughout the world, so no one will be able to set camp and gather all the rare resources they want from nearby areas. They will have to explore, trade or set up quests for others to bring them what they need. There is also a distribution of common items. The best quality leather and bones will be gathered only through hunting. So there will be plenty of reasons to risk exploration.

The farther away from safe zones the greater the chance of finding rare resources, the closer to safe zones, there is less of a chance. There isn't a border or rim at the edge of a safe zone between 'easy' and 'hard' to find rare resources.

When we add expansion claim totems, these will increase the chance of rare items being found, in essence creating resource nodes.

Is the code made to make the rare resources even rarer in closer to safe zones only apply to the players safe zone itself? Or do all safe zones apply equally. Because technically, someone else has a totem that isn't a safe zone for anyone but the people that belong to that totem. If I came from 10 zones away and stood 5 meters from a safe zone would I get as poor of chance to gain rare resources as if I stood 5 meters outside my own safe zone? Remember, there is no safe zone for me in that situation, just the person who belongs to that totem. Do the same rules apply?

If the same rules do apply, this really hurts a great idea.

[Trenchfoot]

@Jadz and NorCal

I took it the same way Jadz took it. But then re-read it for any other possibilities. I guess that's the question we have NorCal.

I guess it doesn't matter when you factor in expansion totems. If for example the 'standard' rares are all you get unless you go expansion totem and create a node to get 'rare' rares.

[NorCalGooey]

Rare resources (and even some common scavenged resources) will be distrubuted throughout the world, not just the new zones. The key is the distribution. You won't be able to sit in one place and gather all you need, which is what some of you are worried about. It will have to be obtained through travel, trade or questing.

Yes, Book, exactly.

This is great. Something like, increasing the chances of scavenging bones in one area of the world, metal in another, cloth in another, etc??

Thanks for the clarification it's very much appreciated :)

[Trenchfoot]

I like the idea of deplete-able regional resources.

[Aiden]

Is the code made to make the rare resources even rarer in closer to safe zones only apply to the players safe zone itself? Or do all safe zones apply equally. Because technically, someone else has a totem that isn't a safe zone for anyone but the people that belong to that totem. If I came from 10 zones away and stood 5 meters from a safe zone would I get as poor of chance to gain rare resources as if I stood 5 meters outside my own safe zone? Remember, there is no safe zone for me in that situation, just the person who belongs to that totem. Do the same rules apply?

If the same rules do apply, this really hurts a great idea.

I took the statement from Xsyon as "all safe zones"...meaning the farther you are away from ANY safe-zone, the higher your chances are...which I think would be very interesting because it would highlight areas in the game right now that are future pvp/conflict hot-spots (those areas that are isolated/just far enough away from any safe-zone to increase the chance). That'd be great...imho

[NorCalGooey]

yeah maybe but all someone has to do is come in and drop a safe totem and all of a sudden the area with more common rare resources is even more rare. I still like the idea of regional rare resources areas with no totem placing. Perhaps in addition to what they are already doing with the rare resources. These areas could have the most common to find rare resources...but would essentially be predefined hot spots and you would simply expect conflict going into these areas. No one is forcing anyone to go to these areas if it is implemented along with the idea Xsyon already is implementing. As a stand alone idea I don't THINK it would go down too well with the no risk crowd.

[Aiden]

yeah maybe but all someone has to do is come in and drop a safe totem and all of a sudden the area with more common rare resources is even more rare. I still like the idea of regional rare resources areas with no totem placing. Perhaps in addition to what they are already doing with the rare resources. These areas could have the most common to find rare resources...but would essentially be predefined hot spots and you would simply expect conflict going into these areas. No one is forcing anyone to go to these areas if it is implemented along with the idea Xsyon already is implementing. As a stand alone idea I don't THINK it would go down too well with the no risk crowd.

Indeed...I'd certainly get behind that as well...

I like the idea of the system we're talking about (and that I'm assuming is Xsyon's intention) because it levels the playing field without separating the playerbase. The resources (rare) are available to everyone...IF you're willing to travel and risk it to get them. I'm not a 100% PVP all the time guy, but I think that the rare resources NEED to be a center of conflict. If the no-risk people don't want to risk anything, then they can produce 10k bricks...and I'll trade them my one rare resource that I risked for in return.

[JCatano]

This whole idea is still painfully bad if we can just kill ourselves for instant travel back to the totem.

Everything on our bodies and in our backpacks needs to drop upon any type of death. The grave/corpse stays for 1 hour or until fully looted.

[Book]

This whole idea is still painfully bad if we can just kill ourselves for instant travel back to the totem.

Everything on our bodies and in our backpacks needs to drop upon any type of death. The grave/corpse stays for 1 hour or until fully looted.

Maybe you just need to learn how to kill someone before they kill themselves?:rolleyes:

[JCatano]

Maybe, all items need to drop after death? That way... The exploit is fixed.

o.O x2

[Jadzia]

Maybe, all items need to drop after death? That way... The exploit is fixed.

o.O x2

Death penalties are incoming, so I guess it won't be worth to commit suicide as a fast travel method.

[NorCalGooey]

Maybe you just need to learn how to kill someone before they kill themselves?:rolleyes:

1 hour?. Try maybe 1 minute. I've never timed it but it's certainly not longer than a minute before corpse despawns. Personally, I think we should only get to keep like 5 items upon death. Either that or lose everything, and have it all despawn after the body despawns.

[Book]

Maybe, all items need to drop after death? That way... The exploit is fixed.

o.O x2

It would certainly up the ante on accidental death. Bear, cliff, drowning when it's in... whatever. On the other hand it gives a reason to go diving for lost loot, and maybe upping the general risk for non-pvp death would help bring both sides together a bit. I'm sure people would adapt after an initial period of rage, not sure it would bother me all that much depending on how effective I can be replacing the things I need to enjoy the game. Part of that is available population for trade. Might be too early.


Guess I don't entirely see what it is about the exploit in particular that bothers you though. Not that it shouldn't be addressed, but in the grander scheme of things, where does it fit in priority of what needs to be addressed?

If it's about not being able to loot someone that just jumped off a cliff... I dunno, choose the timing of your attack when they're not near a cliff for now? Bigger deal to other people, which is cool, just kind of whatever to me.

If it's because you don't think it's fair that other people are using it as a fast mode of travel... meh, who cares what they're doing. They're not really hurting my experience, how are they hurting yours? Would help to know that.

Could see it as a problem in eventual sieges if it can somehow be used to move tools to the front... but that's a looong way off still.

Need more info to know what the problem really is.

With regard to the rares mechanic discussed, yes, it means someone who's traveled far to get rares might use it to get home quicker... I'm sure that will be addressed but in the meantime, it's still an improvement since people have to get there to begin with, and spend time scavenging on location. Part of PvP is timing it so your prey can't just run away... which has nothing to do with jumping off a cliff.

[MrDDT]

If it's because you don't think it's fair that other people are using it as a fast mode of travel... meh, who cares what they're doing. They're not really hurting my experience, how are they hurting yours? Would help to know that.


This could be said about, cheating, duping, and other stuff.
Exploiting a broken system is still bad.

Yes it does hurt me because of how it messes up economy, using roads for travel, and making outposts etc. Many ways it effects people exploiting this "insta travel" system.

[Trenchfoot]

I favor full loot.

1. If you die, you drop a corpse that becomes fully loot-able. Once it is looted and/or butchered it despawns.

2. Corpses should attract (or even spawn) predators. This is to deal with the server load of having a ton of corpses laying around. ie. If not looted/butchered and despawned within a certain period of time, bears/zombies/rats/etc. come and eat it up. Therefore if you wait too long before you loot, you'll have to contend with predators, and if you wait too long after that they devour it and it's gone. On a side note I love how in WURM you have to bury corpses.

3. Totem spawning could be countered with an injury system. ie. When you die, you retain injuries upon respawn. You'll have to lick your wounds before you'll be doing anything strenuous for a spell. Injuries can be re-opened when you over do it. Certain injuries could even be life threatening if you don't get some rest and take it easy moping around your home village. Cooks could make poultices to help increase healing, etc. Bandages could be added to the tailor skill. All kinds of possibilities. WURM also did a great job with this.

Which brings up a couple of questions.

Resurrection?
Magic Insta-Healing?

Personally I would not like to see either of these in the game.

[MrDDT]

I favor full loot.

1. If you die, you drop a corpse that becomes fully loot-able. Once it is looted and/or butchered it despawns.

2. Corpses should attract (or even spawn) predators. This is to deal with the server load of having a ton of corpses laying around. ie. If not looted/butchered and despawned within a certain period of time, bears/zombies/rats/etc. come and eat it up. Therefore if you wait too long before you loot, you'll have to contend with predators, and if you wait too long after that they devour it and it's gone. On a side note I love how in WURM you have to bury corpses.

3. Totem spawning could be countered with an injury system. ie. When you die, you retain injuries upon respawn. You'll have to lick your wounds before you'll be doing anything strenuous for a spell. Injuries can be re-opened when you over do it. Certain injuries could even be life threatening if you don't get some rest and take it easy moping around your home village. Cooks could make poultices to help increase healing, etc. Bandages could be added to the tailor skill. All kinds of possibilities. WURM also did a great job with this.

Which brings up a couple of questions.

Resurrection?
Magic Insta-Healing?

Personally I would not like to see either of these in the game.


1) I agree with this, but I think there should be punishments or flags for looting people that are not "friends", "Tribemates", or "Allies"

2) Way to easy to exploit this. You can then have zombies and other resources spawning from people killing a toon over and over, I would rather just see decay, or maybe it will spawn deathbettles after x amount of time that yield almost no resources, and are very easy to kill.

I posted this in another thread long ago, but its about healing.

3) I believe in the system you are talking about where you die, you get "wounds" these wounds need to be treated, and you will be at great risk to dying again if not healed.
Also I believe there is way to much "killing" in the game, there should be a "KO" state which allows people to help you up, and bandage you so you dont bleed out to death.
Killing should be held for very hard monsters, and evil players wanting to kill you to fully loot you. With killing someone it would bring bad punishments (Like bad karma) onto these evil players. Animals and stuff should normally wonder away, allowing you to come back to life after a small amount of time.

Now if you use wounds system like WURM has (I will explain it), which you get hit and its not just about a total HP bar, but you get wounds. These wounds can be treated in many ways, light wounds can be easy treated (Resting, bandages with almost no skill, herbs with almost no skill, magic very easy, all healing potions etc). Then you get harsher wounds as you get hurt more and more. Things like "Bleeding" or "Severe", which would kill you if left untreated. So if you are KO'd to badly you will need treatment to prevent you from dying even after you are helped back awake. With bleeding, and severe wounds, you would need to have better treatment to fix them. (Bandages with good or great skill, Herbs that are made by skilled players, magic medium to strong magics, and potions etc)
Also healing in some of the medical tents with lite treatment could help some of these bleeding and Severe wounds.

[Book]

I favor full loot.

1. If you die, you drop a corpse that becomes fully loot-able. Once it is looted and/or butchered it despawns.

Which brings up a couple of questions.

Resurrection?
Magic Insta-Healing?

Personally I would not like to see either of these in the game.

When you say "despawns"... do you mean I'd have to wait for you to be done looting or butchering before I respawn and go about figuring out what I need to do? Reason I ask is simple... I hate waiting on other people ;)

If all my stuff is just gonna drop anyway, at least don't make me sit there twiddling my thumbs while you enjoy a bag of tea.

Far as the rezzing and insta-healing, that does have a more arcadish feel to it than what I find in Xsyon. Especially insta-healing as I can't think of any precedent for that in history. Shamans, for example, take a heck of a long time doing their thing when healing. I can't think of a "SHAZAM" you're healed! type of thing. Even TV Evangelists have a ritual before slapping your forehead.

Rezzing could have some value from a social / real-life time perspective though. If I'm out hunting Bears of Unusual Sizes on the other side of the map with some friends and one of them dies, it might be a real downer if he then has to run all the way back to the other side of the map to re-join us. Some way of allowing a group to recover from a loss so it can keep going might be good... otherwise it might hinder that dynamic if people think... "nah, died last time and it's just no fun winding up back home by myself after all that travel."


3) I believe in the system you are talking about where you die, you get "wounds" these wounds need to be treated, and you will be at great risk to dying again if not healed.
Also I believe there is way to much "killing" in the game, there should be a "KO" state which allows people to help you up, and bandage you so you dont bleed out to death.
Killing should be held for very hard monsters, and evil players wanting to kill you to fully loot you. With killing someone it would bring bad punishments (Like bad karma) onto these evil players. Animals and stuff should normally wonder away, allowing you to come back to life after a small amount of time.

Now if you use wounds system like WURM has (I will explain it), which you get hit and its not just about a total HP bar, but you get wounds. These wounds can be treated in many ways, light wounds can be easy treated (Resting, bandages with almost no skill, herbs with almost no skill, magic very easy, all healing potions etc). Then you get harsher wounds as you get hurt more and more. Things like "Bleeding" or "Severe", which would kill you if left untreated. So if you are KO'd to badly you will need treatment to prevent you from dying even after you are helped back awake. With bleeding, and severe wounds, you would need to have better treatment to fix them. (Bandages with good or great skill, Herbs that are made by skilled players, magic medium to strong magics, and potions etc)
Also healing in some of the medical tents with lite treatment could help some of these bleeding and Severe wounds.

I think this would be a good solution to the social grouping issue I was talking about above. Group would need some healing capacity with them, and there would be a chance at recovery and continuing the fun if well managed. After that adrenaline rush, probably be nice to build a fire, heal up and have a good laugh about it anyways.

[Trenchfoot]

@DDT

Agreed

1. Yes, the killing of the member of another tribe should have repercussions and effect the political/social atmosphere.

2. Possibly. I like the death beetles idea. John, Paul, Ringo and such with hoods and scythes ...

3. Spot on. 1st I like the idea of a mechanic that requires people to need other people. 2nd perma injuries would be a one way trip with a huge loss. Jupming off a cliff could cost you your life over and over again from one leap if you don't seek treatment.


When you say "despawns"... do you mean I'd have to wait for you to be done looting or butchering before I respawn and go about figuring out what I need to do?

NO not at all. You could theoretically come back and loot/butcher your own corpse.

EDIT: The predators was just a creative way to deal with server load. I wouldn't mind seeing the corpse itself being valuable. ie. You retrieve a corpse, give it a proper burial near your deity's alter or some such and you gain some kind of spiritual bonuses or something? Or if you were evil you could part it out to make things out of.

Death beetles is fine too, just as long as they are cleaned up and don't cause heavy load. It can be a pain to drop what you're doing and go out and clean up corpses that other people left, just so you can reduce lag so you can get back to what you were doing in the first place.

[JCatano]

Death penalties are incoming, so I guess it won't be worth to commit suicide as a fast travel method.

How are you sure it won't be worth it? Anyway... Park an alt, trade to it, kill alt, start resource gathering with main while running alt back. Rinse, repeat.

And that's if the death penalty is even harsh enough, which it won't be. It can't be harsh or it will just deter people from taking any risk at all. In addition to that, being camped or in a siege situation where you may die a lot would be a bitch with a harsh death penalty.


Book -

It's not hard to figure out the exploit. Already gave an example above. I used to do this a few months ago. I'd have people in my tribe gather sand, then kill them all after they were full. I'm quite confident in saying that isn't the intention Jordi had.

Everything on the body and in the backpack needs to drop on any type of death. Grave stays for 1 hour or until fully looted. Simple solution, fixes travel exploit, and works. Also, yes... It can keep people from jumping off of a cliff to save their gear. With the current mechanic, I'd do it if I knew death was eminent. Just like Jadzia said she'd drop her bags before dying. *golf clap*

[MrDDT]

If all my stuff is just gonna drop anyway, at least don't make me sit there twiddling my thumbs while you enjoy a bag of tea.

Far as the rezzing and insta-healing, that does have a more arcadish feel to it than what I find in Xsyon. Especially insta-healing as I can't think of any precedent for that in history. Shamans, for example, take a heck of a long time doing their thing when healing. I can't think of a "SHAZAM" you're healed! type of thing. Even TV Evangelists have a ritual before slapping your forehead.


The key for you "twiddling" your thumbs is the fact that I believe rezing should be part of that timer there. I also believe you should be able to insta tap out and say "send me to my death". Darkfall does this pretty well. The dying out timer is like 2mins, or 10 seconds if you wish to return back to your spawn. This gives time for people to rez you. Also in DFO there is a "gank" action which takes about 10second to "finish" someone. Which helps in PVP combat where friends can protect you from "dying", when you are knocked down and pretty much bleeding out. So they can keep someone from "ganking" you and you get a chance for friends to come in and safe you AKA rez you. Works really well.

Rezzing and Insta-healing in relation to history or real life: This is a game. Last I checked in real life, if you die, you dont respawn back at your house in 30 seconds. Thus, whats the problem with going a pit more and thinking maybe there are magics and other ways to insta mend someone's wounds?

Fun vs Realism. The game should be fun and realistic as it can be. But dont short change it being fun just because a minor detail like, no insta healing in real life.

[Book]

Last I checked in real life, if you die, you dont respawn back at your house in 30 seconds.

Now that right there is probably the best public service announcement I've heard in a long time, even if it completely throws off my plans for Saturday night... ;)

I hear ya on the insta-heal thing. Maybe it's become kind of a main staple in mmo's and it would feel off not having that role available.

One of the things that makes Xsyon unique to me is the close relationship with reality though... I've had a lot of fun in things like WoW or Everquest II or SWG etc, but it's also nice to have a break from too much make-believe which is what I find in Xsyon.

[Mactavendish]

Not sure why you would actually want such a tired old idea to be put into this game. Corpse runs??? please.

Again its back to let's make this like other games, NOT let's dream up something interesting and unique...

Please try again.

[NorCalGooey]

How about corpses despawn after 1 hour. You will respawn without your loot if you die but have 1 hour to retrieve it.

[MrDDT]

Not sure why you would actually want such a tired old idea to be put into this game. Corpse runs??? please.

Again its back to let's make this like other games, NOT let's dream up something interesting and unique...

Please try again.


Sorry, I didnt see your idea here. Can you please give me a link? Or should we keep with the system that hurts trade and economy, and think this isnt tired and been done in other games badly?

I have no problem with corpse runs. Most sandbox games does it, because of trade and economy is the main reason for most sandbox games. Along with building up a world.

[Drevar]

This is a reply by Beatnik59 to a thread over on MMORPG about SWG closing down in December. His words are very true and very much relevant to the discussions going on here.

"...SWG game me the belief that what we were doing was important; that we had a responsibility to make the game work. That's the great thing about sandbox, but also the reason why nobody wants to touch it. The game needs people to fulfill the vision, and it relies on everybody playing in the spirit of the game. When people make the game conform to their version of fun, rather than conform themselves to the game's needs, the sandbox dies...."

Full thread is here :http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/6/feature/5337/Star-Wars-Galaxies-Story-of-the-Week-DingDong-Vaders-Dead.html

[Book]

Have to admit, map is going to be very large and it's not like we're respawning close to our bodies like in some other games...

A long corpse run isn't fun. I mean it's one thing if it's part of the pvp pain people enjoy feeling but not like pvp is the only thing that's going to kill you out there. Corpse run winds up feeling a lot like a time sink if it isn't thought out right.

I know exploits need to be taken care of, but anything you come up with will eventually be exploited in some fashion won't it? Just saying something that isn't TOO painful would be nice if corpse runs are intended.

@Drevar... spirit of the game needs to be fairly well fleshed out and somewhat firm doesn't it? I mean, how else do people know if they're playing within the spirit of the game? That's why I think it's great that Xsyon and Dev team listen to player input... but sometimes I think it might be a little too much. IE. As much fun as I may have thinking about innovative siege mechanics, if that wasn't part of the original design Xsyon was passionate about that got him started on this journey... goodness's sakes don't put siege in then. I think as much as possible one has to have faith in their vision and stick it through without swaying in the wind too much, either way the wind may be blowing. Easy for me to say though, I've nothing on the line here.

[Jadzia]

I like full item drop on death but perhaps its too harsh for people who are not used to it. So what if a player dies he drops the stuffs of his 5 random inventory slots ? And no corpse run...what he dropped disappears from the game in 5 mins. Thats good for the economy, good for trading and no boring corpse runs. We have so many items in game, the more disappear the better :)

Just to make it clear, not 5 items, but 5 slots...if he has 1000 nails on 1 slot and the slot is chosen then he drops all the nails.

[MrDDT]

Have to admit, map is going to be very large and it's not like we're respawning close to our bodies like in some other games...

A long corpse run isn't fun. I mean it's one thing if it's part of the pvp pain people enjoy feeling but not like pvp is the only thing that's going to kill you out there. Corpse run winds up feeling a lot like a time sink if it isn't thought out right.

I know exploits need to be taken care of, but anything you come up with will eventually be exploited in some fashion won't it? Just saying something that isn't TOO painful would be nice if corpse runs are intended.



Items are easy to replace, and its already a full loot game (not really with all the bugs and current plans working but its said to be). So why are you worried about your loot? I mean really, when I die, I expect my loot to be looted when I play games like DFO, and I see no difference here.

No every system you come up with doesnt have to be exploited. Even if it were, you would want to at least try to limit the impact of exploited systems. Right now how you respawn with all your items is exploited often. It will kill the economy and tactics of the local resources if its not fixed.

[Jalisar]

My following responses to your post are not designed to irritate you, but are intended to help you see another point of view.

to ME... Xsyon's reply's are in keeping with what I have always believed to be the way this game is and was supposed to be.

A game where blind ganking would not take place often if at all, where what WE did determined how safe or unsafe we were, and were WE could as a tribe or group could choose to participate in some aspect of the game or not, and be allowed to remain in that state unhindered by other groups that wanted to prevent that.

I know you don't believe that such a game will succeed and perhaps it won't, but I SURE want to see it happen and will stick around and see if I can help see it come to pass, by paying to play, giving feedback, and simply hope I get my wish.

ALSO: I fully understood this game would change in many ways as it is developed, that it was already a work in progress, was not complete, and would at times have broken pieces as they work on new ideas or try new systems. The fact they have a test server helps my perspective even more as I don't have to deal with many of the effects of improvement while I play.

This exactly

Added after 5 minutes:


Sorry, I didnt see your idea here. Can you please give me a link? Or should we keep with the system that hurts trade and economy, and think this isnt tired and been done in other games badly?

I have no problem with corpse runs. Most sandbox games does it, because of trade and economy is the main reason for most sandbox games. Along with building up a world.

I thought the sandbox game was just to play... Not for trade and economy as most people think trade and econ means ridiculous trades and insane prices... That could just be me personally though.

[Book]

Items are easy to replace, and its already a full loot game (not really with all the bugs and current plans working but its said to be). So why are you worried about your loot? I mean really, when I die, I expect my loot to be looted when I play games like DFO, and I see no difference here.

Oh noes... don't make me say it man, don't do it!... this isn't DFO... argh, I said it ;)

Incidentally, if things are so easy to acquire and replace, why are YOU so interested in my loot? :p

But anyway, fix exploits as they appear, agreed.

What Jadzia is saying might be a good compromise though. Maybe find an equation that would use the random element but make it less possible for someone to fill up with useless stuff hoping to lessen the chances of losing the few useful things to bring home.

We've got physics experts working on this game... they can probably handle an equation or two ;)

[NorCalGooey]

Sandbox means more than that, it means we drive the story and gameplay. We are the story, we create it. If the story is big enough, most of the population will know about it. Such as a large war between two huge tribes. Then you have mercenaries coming from all over the world looking to join to help the larger tribes (perhaps voluntary or the larger tribes pay for more merc soldiers)

Or perhaps the story line is controlled behind the scenes by a secret alliance of crafters who play strings with politics because they have all these valuable crafted items and can pay off merc tribes to do their bidding.

Or An evil tribe who goes around picking on mini tribes and homesteads...news travels around the world and 24 hours later they have most of the world knocking at their door to wipe them off the map (or at least destroy their area of influence in territory control areas, since we will likely never see CAPITAL totem capture...which is good, only expansion totems should be able to be captured IMO).



These are scenarios that should all be possible in a TRUE sandbox game.

[Shrimps]

Oh noes... don't make me say it man, don't do it!... this isn't DFO... argh, I said it ;)

Incidentally, if things are so easy to acquire and replace, why are YOU so interested in my loot? :p

But anyway, fix exploits as they appear, agreed.

What Jadzia is saying might be a good compromise though. Maybe find an equation that would use the random element but make it less possible for someone to fill up with useless stuff hoping to lessen the chances of losing the few useful things to bring home.

We've got physics experts working on this game... they can probably handle an equation or two ;)


Have it always drop 3 random equipped items and then 2 other random items.

That way you are guaranteed to get at least something.

[JCatano]

Don't like corpse runs? Don't make the run. Only time I do in DF is if it's close enough to bother. If not, I just chalk it up as a loss.

Jadzia and others... Full drop, and 1 hour. If you choose to run back, you have realistic chance to get your stuff back (unless it was a PvP death, of course). Don't forget that mounts are supposed to be in at some point. That turns this "huge" world into smaller one, which leads to an easier run if you choose to engage it.

[MrDDT]

I thought the sandbox game was just to play... Not for trade and economy as most people think trade and econ means ridiculous trades and insane prices... That could just be me personally though.

What does playing a game have to do with sandbox type of game?
Sandbox game has nothing to do with "just to play". It has to do with the type of game it is, I would guess all games were "just to play". Because that statement is so broad it covers every game.

Trade, and economy are only part of what make up a sandbox game but its a major part. Its player trade, and player run economy.


Oh noes... don't make me say it man, don't do it!... this isn't DFO... argh, I said it ;)

Incidentally, if things are so easy to acquire and replace, why are YOU so interested in my loot? :p

But anyway, fix exploits as they appear, agreed.

What Jadzia is saying might be a good compromise though. Maybe find an equation that would use the random element but make it less possible for someone to fill up with useless stuff hoping to lessen the chances of losing the few useful things to bring home.

We've got physics experts working on this game... they can probably handle an equation or two ;)

Of course you would agree with what Jadzia is saying, because its going more to the carebear side of things. Its removing full loot from the game. She is major carebear, she is the queen of the carebears.

I think, fixing the exploit should have nothing to do with this. Like JC says, if you dont want to run, dont. Chalk it up as a lost. Just like you would in PVP.

I dont see how it makes it "less possible" you would drop 5 stacks of the 90 you are carrying not counting the equiped items. That means you would drop less than 5% of what you had. That sounds really effective to me. Might want to come up with a better way.

[Jalisar]

Heh its all a mute point atm since all terra forming ever done is gone atm with that last crash.. most cry babies will get all hurt and quit if its not fixed right this very second i'm sure.

[Book]

Of course you would agree with what Jadzia is saying, because its going more to the carebear side of things. Its removing full loot from the game. She is major carebear, she is the queen of the carebears.

Nah, I agree with Jadzia cuz I'm afraid of getting locked in her basement weaving grass skirts for her tribe...

You might have missed this:


I like full item drop on death but perhaps its too harsh for people who are not used to it.

I think she was just open to discussion if the full drop wasn't embraced by others in the community.

None of it bothers me all that much, I'm just open to ideas others come up with if it does bother others. Don't really see any harm in that. People also sometimes offer up alternative solutions even if the problem in question doesn't necessarily bother them personally. Needn't have a dog in every race to watch the screen.

[MrDDT]

Nah, I agree with Jadzia cuz I'm afraid of getting locked in her basement weaving grass skirts for her tribe...

You might have missed this:



I think she was just open to discussion if the full drop wasn't embraced by others in the community.

None of it bothers me all that much, I'm just open to ideas others come up with if it does bother others. Don't really see any harm in that. People also sometimes offer up alternative solutions even if the problem in question doesn't necessarily bother them personally. Needn't have a dog in every race to watch the screen.


Im totally for 100% safe zones and no PVP, but that might be to restrictive for people who are not used to it. So lets make the whole world PVP, with starting areas where you spawn in at no PVP. Everything else no safe zones, and 100% full PVP everywhere else.

See what I did there?

[Jadzia]

Of course you would agree with what Jadzia is saying, because its going more to the carebear side of things. Its removing full loot from the game. She is major carebear, she is the queen of the carebears.

I really don't see how it is 'carebear' to suggest item loss on PvE death...in case of PvP death you don't have to drop anything, do you, since you are looted ? I thought everyone were talking about PvE death...jumping off from cliffs and being killed by bears. On PvP death we should be looted during the looting timer, plus one random item disappearing if there is still something on you. This would help to avoid friends killing each others for insta travel.

JCatano, earlier I suggested full item drop on PvE death with 5 minutes timer. You and many of our brave PvPers were so against it saying its too harsh...which I really don't get. The game has full loot PvP you are not supposed to carry anything with you which you are not ready to lose...so why is it such a scary option to lose the stuffs from 5 inv slots ? The game is flooded with items, decay is slow, this would boost the economy and would avoid the really boring corpse runs.

Again, my personal favourite is full item drop on any type of death with a 5 minutes timer, after that everything disappears from the game. I suggested this before but people found it too harsh.

[Rudder]

One of the mmo's I've played in the past has a video that needs to be heard by every player here. The Game is Eve Online and the Video is the Revelations 2 trailer. Just listen to the woman speaking. 'Man is the Destroyer of things'.

[NorCalGooey]

Yes we are. Nukes don't destroy the world, the man who presses the button does. Thanks for the suggestions I shall go listen.

[Book]

Again, my personal favourite is full item drop on any type of death with a 5 minutes timer, after that everything disappears from the game. I suggested this before but people found it too harsh.

Bold statement for the queen of the carebears... geesh! :p

I presume the order of operations should be to tackle basket permissions outside of safe zones and then revisit this idea?

Also maybe a mechanic for newer players who don't yet have many trading contacts and feasible way to replace their items so they're not stuck up a creek with no paddle for pushing their comfort zone in-game? This might be less of an issue with a more populated world though. Wasn't long ago a new player could say "help!" in general and get friendly responses. Worked for me when I started out.

[JCatano]

JCatano, earlier I suggested full item drop on PvE death with 5 minutes timer. You and many of our brave PvPers were so against it saying its too harsh...which I really don't get. The game has full loot PvP you are not supposed to carry anything with you which you are not ready to lose...so why is it such a scary option to lose the stuffs from 5 inv slots ? The game is flooded with items, decay is slow, this would boost the economy and would avoid the really boring corpse runs.

Again, my personal favourite is full item drop on any type of death with a 5 minutes timer, after that everything disappears from the game. I suggested this before but people found it too harsh.

Where did I say it was too harsh? Which "brave PvP'ers" said it was too harsh? In a past thread, I implied that you only wanted a 5 minute timer so the chances of someone looting your stuff after a PvE death would be almost zero. That way, you'd be happy that nobody got to loot your stuff, since you're a pussy carebear (see what I did there?).

Dropping a few items isn't harsh enough, and still exploitable even if the drops are random. Alts and friendlies make it exploitable with regard to instant travel even though it would potentially be more time consuming with random drops.

Again x3: Full drop, 1 hour grave or until fully looted. Why is that so scary for you?

Another "again": If you don't want to do a boring corpse run; don't. That's how to avoid it.

[MrDDT]

Where did I say it was too harsh? Which "brave PvP'ers" said it was too harsh? In a past thread, I implied that you only wanted a 5 minute timer so the chances of someone looting your stuff after a PvE death would be almost zero. That way, you'd be happy that nobody got to loot your stuff, since you're a pussy carebear (see what I did there?).

Dropping a few items isn't harsh enough, and still exploitable even if the drops are random. Alts and friendlies make it exploitable with regard to instant travel even though it would potentially be more time consuming with random drops.

Again x3: Full drop, 1 hour grave or until fully looted. Why is that so scary for you?

Another "again": If you don't want to do a boring corpse run; don't. That's how to avoid it.


Bold for effect, because that's whats important. Full loot game, I see no reason not to leave a full corpse on death. (Granted this isnt a full loot game even though it was said to be one, but I believe they are changing things to be a full loot game).

Dropping random items will still be exploited. I dont see how dropping a grave that decays, can be exploited.

I also think there should be alignment hits for people looting items off other players. Once this system is put into place, I believe it will have a great effect, also with the KO system.

[Trenchfoot]

What I hate about random drops most is being the underdog, fighting my heart out against someone with better gear and more of an advantage, pulling it off and defeating them, then I get a random bunch of nothing.

If you carry the best equip with you and that equip gives you an advantage, and I overcome your advantage, have I then earned the right to your advantage? Doesn't this diminish the value of gear? ie. Less of a risk to carry your 'good' gear, and therefore people fear loosing their good gear a little less.

I realize this doesn't apply to a lot of loot, but it applies to some of it.

[MrDDT]

What I hate about random drops most is being the underdog, fighting my heart out against someone with better gear and more of an advantage, pulling it off and defeating them, then I get a random bunch of nothing.

If you carry the best equip with you and that equip gives you an advantage, and I overcome your advantage, have I then earned the right to your advantage? Doesn't this diminish the value of gear? ie. Less of a risk to carry your 'good' gear, and therefore people fear loosing their good gear a little less.

I realize this doesn't apply to a lot of loot, but it applies to some of it.

It applies to anyone playing at the top end, and the ones fighting them.

Its like you say, I would wear the best gear getting the greatest advantage with minimal risk. Which negates the gear because then everyone would really be using it. Thus the loss and the reward isnt as great.

[Book]

Where did I say it was too harsh? Which "brave PvP'ers" said it was too harsh? In a past thread, I implied that you only wanted a 5 minute timer so the chances of someone looting your stuff after a PvE death would be almost zero. That way, you'd be happy that nobody got to loot your stuff, since you're a pussy carebear (see what I did there?).

Sure, I see what you did there... you were an insulting moron who launches out an idea and won't consider any alternatives... surprise!

Honestly folks, lighten up a bit. Lest I tell you that if you don't want to pvp without a special pixelated cookie reward, then just don't pvp.

This can go on until a dev steps in and locks the thread, or people can start looking at things as objectively as capable and read what is said at face value. If your idea of fun is running around the world to see what kind of loot dropped from a PvE death in the last hour... sure, go for it, I really don't think anyone gives a flyin' sumthing sumthing what you do with your time.

[JCatano]

Was that directed at Jadzia for her initial quip? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Over you head. ;)

[Book]

Was that directed at Jadzia for her initial quip? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Over you head. ;)

You mean over my purty woven grass top-hat... :)

I got what you were doing, still think it's not terribly necessary.

Everything else stands... you could jump ahead a bit and say "full drop, 1-hour" X203 just to save some time since launching into an idea and thereafter closing your mind seems to be your forte.

Example:
Downtime HAS to be during Australian primetime every day or everything will be fail! X ad nauseum.
Oh lookie, Dev found another solution that works for them and world didn't implode.

Even when someone agrees with you, you don't see it. Is the problem that it's full drop 5 minutes rather than your steadfast full-drop one hour? Would seem rather petty and unproductive to be that locked into an idea instead of learning a bit of compromise to get something done.

[JCatano]

You mean over my purty woven grass top-hat... :)

I got what you were doing, still think it's not terribly necessary.

Everything else stands... you could jump ahead a bit and say "full drop, 1-hour" X203 just to save some time since launching into an idea and thereafter closing your mind seems to be your forte.

Example:
Downtime HAS to be during Australian primetime every day or everything will be fail! X ad nauseum.
Oh lookie, Dev found another solution that works for them and world didn't implode.

Even when someone agrees with you, you don't see it. Is the problem that it's full drop 5 minutes rather than your steadfast full-drop one hour? Would seem rather petty and unproductive to be that locked into an idea instead of learning a bit of compromise to get something done.

And her jest wasn't necessary, either, right? Yeah. Anyway...

There is no reason for a 5-minute timer, since some people will choose to make a corpse run. A 5-minute timer gives no choice unless you died right by your totem.

If she's so worried about slow item decay, she'd suggest faster general decay... Not a 5-minute timer that only get rids of items if someone dies.

Full drop takes care of exploits. A 1-hour grave timer allows a choice, but also takes care of DB crowding if someone chooses not to make a corpse run. If someone else finds the grave within that hour... Nice surprise, right? Yep.

[Book]

And her jest wasn't necessary, either, right? Yeah. Anyway...

There is no reason for a 5-minute timer, since some people will choose to make a corpse run. A 5-minute timer gives no choice unless you died right by your totem.

If she's so worried about slow item decay, she'd suggest faster general decay... Not a 5-minute timer that only get rids of items if someone dies.

Full drop takes care of exploits. A 1-hour grave timer allows a choice, but also takes care of DB crowding if someone chooses not to make a corpse run. If someone else finds the grave within that hour... Nice surprise, right? Yep.

Nice surprise indeed haha.

I have been thinking about the hour thing and wonder what kind of radius from one's home that would amount to... again, map will be huge and while mounts will affect that, who knows when that will be, timer can be adjusted when that is implemented.

I don't really know how to get a general idea of a timer that would allow a proper incentive for the choice to head back out or not, while also encouraging people to go far from the home. While not making it so long that it winds up weighing down the server too. Is run speed affected by player level? Meaning a veteran could cover more ground in an hour and thus be more likely to go further out than a new player? But then, this hurts new players more than veterans because item loss is harder on them...

Dunno, but still won't really matter until bag permissions are looked at. Taming, cooking, agriculture, a lot of things are more important to me from a dev resource standpoint.

[Jadzia]

Bold statement for the queen of the carebears... geesh! :p


Yeah...they have some preconceptions, don't they ? :) I have several reason why I don't like forced PvP, but risk is not one of them. I love risk, I love harsh death penalties and I don't like easy mode.
And I love freedom....try to force singing on me in a game and I will hate it with the same passion lol.


Where did I say it was too harsh? Which "brave PvP'ers" said it was too harsh? In a past thread, I implied that you only wanted a 5 minute timer so the chances of someone looting your stuff after a PvE death would be almost zero. That way, you'd be happy that nobody got to loot your stuff, since you're a pussy carebear (see what I did there?).

Dropping a few items isn't harsh enough, and still exploitable even if the drops are random. Alts and friendlies make it exploitable with regard to instant travel even though it would potentially be more time consuming with random drops.

Again x3: Full drop, 1 hour grave or until fully looted. Why is that so scary for you?

Another "again": If you don't want to do a boring corpse run; don't. That's how to avoid it.
Yes, I see what you did there, you insulted me but that only qualifies you not me :)
I only care if someone gets my stuffs because its bad for the economy. I've lost it anyway, so why would I bother who owns it ?

Full drop, 1 hour grave or until fully looted is not scary for me...since what I suggested was more harsh. Full drop, and you don't get a 1 hour window to get your stuffs back. Whats wrong with it ? Why are you so eager to grab those pixels back...the economy needs to be working, so we need to take items out of the game. You lost a fight with a bear, you are dead, you lose your stuffs...clear and simple.
The main problem with corpse run is not that it is boring...more that it is bad for the economy.

This is what I'd like to see and what I suggested in that old thread back in March. But a lot of people found it too harsh, so thats why I'm saying random 5 drops on PvE death. I don't think its exploitable, who would risk to lose an important item for fast travel ? And if he has no valuable item on him then why would you mind that fast travel.

So what I'm saying is:
full loot on PvP death, with the current loot timer. After a body is looted, 1 more random item is destroyed if he still has something on him.
Stuffs of 5 random inventory slot is destroyed in case of PvE death.

[MrDDT]

Yeah...they have some preconceptions, don't they ? :) I have several reason why I don't like forced PvP, but risk is not one of them. I love risk, I love harsh death penalties and I don't like easy mode.
And I love freedom....try to force singing on me in a game and I will hate it with the same passion lol.


Yes, I see what you did there, you insulted me but that only qualifies you not me :)
I only care if someone gets my stuffs because its bad for the economy. I've lost it anyway, so why would I bother who owns it ?

Full drop, 1 hour grave or until fully looted is not scary for me...since what I suggested was more harsh. Full drop, and you don't get a 1 hour window to get your stuffs back. Whats wrong with it ? Why are you so eager to grab those pixels back...the economy needs to be working, so we need to take items out of the game. You lost a fight with a bear, you are dead, you lose your stuffs...clear and simple.
The main problem with corpse run is not that it is boring...more that it is bad for the economy.

This is what I'd like to see and what I suggested in that old thread back in March. But a lot of people found it too harsh, so thats why I'm saying random 5 drops on PvE death. I don't think its exploitable, who would risk to lose an important item for fast travel ? And if he has no valuable item on him then why would you mind that fast travel.

So what I'm saying is:
full loot on PvP death, with the current loot timer. After a body is looted, 1 more random item is destroyed if he still has something on him.
Stuffs of 5 random inventory slot is destroyed in case of PvE death.


I dont understand why you keep saying this. You keep saying "I want a working economy but lets put an idea that doesnt help it"

Let the devs choose whether or not something is too harsh. Instead of going from 1 end to the other. You saying you want something, but then you "suggest" each time at the end something super carebear. That makes no sense.

I want full loot, but I think we should not allow anyone to loot anything at any time. Is how I read your statements.

So far the only comment about not dropping everything on death is, Book, and Mac who said something vague about wanting something to not been used in games before, but gave no reason what or how.
EVERYONE else is for dropping full items. If what you say is true. Which I still dont believe because of how you keep saying the opposite of what you really want.

[Jadzia]

I want full loot, but I think we should not allow anyone to loot anything at any time. Is how I read your statements.
No idea how you read this from what I wrote :)

Nothing would change PvP looting wise...nothing. My suggestion is for PvE death penalty. If the devs decide to go for full item drop on PvE death I'm happy. If they choose to go for 1 hour corpse window I can live with that too but I'd like a boost for the economy so I prefer no corpse run.

[JCatano]

Nice surprise indeed haha.

I have been thinking about the hour thing and wonder what kind of radius from one's home that would amount to... again, map will be huge and while mounts will affect that, who knows when that will be, timer can be adjusted when that is implemented.

I don't really know how to get a general idea of a timer that would allow a proper incentive for the choice to head back out or not, while also encouraging people to go far from the home. While not making it so long that it winds up weighing down the server too. Is run speed affected by player level? Meaning a veteran could cover more ground in an hour and thus be more likely to go further out than a new player? But then, this hurts new players more than veterans because item loss is harder on them...

Dunno, but still won't really matter until bag permissions are looked at. Taming, cooking, agriculture, a lot of things are more important to me from a dev resource standpoint.

In my opinion, you're putting too much thought into it. If the code is so shitty that it can't handle some graves throughout the day, then the issue isn't with the graves. :P

Also, incentive to explore far from home should not be based on how long a timer is. It should be based on the worthiness of exploration (content).

Everyone has the choice of a corpse run. It's not a newbie v. veteran scenario. Want to? Do it. Don't? Don't.


Jadzia -

Don't play stupid. Your "brave PvP'er" comment was stated in jest.

As I said, if you're worried about the economy, you'd suggest faster item decay. Your 5-minute grave timer only works if you die while solo and it happens more than 5 minutes from your totem. While it will obviously happen at times, that's still filled with ifs. Faster overall decay accomplishes exactly what you want in a much more efficient manner.

- Random drops suck. A great win might give you 2 sand, 2 nails, 1 screw, a crappy glove, and a pair of Zonkers. That uber axe sure would have been nice...

- Exploiting fast travel with random drops is not hard; just potentially more time consuming. You do it with more than 1 person. If you drop something good, have your alt or friend pick it up. Some people would just roll the dice if solo, anyway, and succeed.

- 1-hour timer gives people a choice to make a corpse run. This is especially good for people who are low on equipment.

[Jadzia]

Jadzia -

Don't play stupid. Your "brave PvP'er" comment was stated in jest.

It was definitely a bit ironic and a bit teasing, but in no way was an insult. But nvm, I really don't get offended through the net.



As I said, if you're worried about the economy, you'd suggest faster item decay. Your 5-minute grave timer only works if you die while solo and it happens more than 5 minutes from your totem. While it will obviously happen at times, that's still filled with ifs. Faster overall decay accomplishes exactly what you want in a much more efficient manner.

- Random drops suck. A great win might give you 2 sand, 2 nails, 1 screw, a crappy glove, and a pair of Zonkers. That uber axe sure would have been nice...

- Exploiting fast travel with random drops is not hard; just potentially more time consuming. You do it with more than 1 person. If you drop something good, have your alt or friend pick it up. Some people would just roll the dice if solo, anyway, and succeed.

- 1-hour timer gives people a choice to make a corpse run. This is especially good for people who are low on equipment.
Fast decay is ok...but annoying and makes the game feel like a chore, while losing items on death makes the game exciting. Much better solution imo.

You are right about the 5 mins...originally I suggested 1 min lol but there was such a big uproar I gave in and altered to 5 mins :P

There would be no random drops for PvP death. It would be full looting just like now.

If a player would keep playing hazard with a friend the time it would consume from both of them wouldn't really be worth it imo.

I can live with a 1 hour corpse window. I just don't find it good for the economy.

[Book]

Everyone has the choice of a corpse run. It's not a newbie v. veteran scenario. Want to? Do it. Don't? Don't.

What I'm trying to say is that it's easier and more likely for a veteran player to just shrug and figure : "pfft, not bothering with a corpse run."

Suppose if I had a human skull or drill bit in there maybe I'd be happy to have the option to bother but 99% of the time it wouldn't affect me at all.

A new player may not have as much luxury to shrug it off as I do, especially if there aren't many people around to trade them a replacement.

So we'd be exposing new players to a tedious and boring part of the game disproportionately, before they've been really hooked into the game, which makes it more likely they'll just hit the X in the top right corner and go play something else.

Not saying we need to coddle them but lets not push them out either :) Just saying that when it comes time to look at this more seriously because implementation is more imminent, it's something to keep in mind.

And yes, this wouldn't be the first time someone tells me I'm over-thinking things :) Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes not so much.

in any case... where's that confounded map... woke up in-game and forgot where I was going the other night.

[JCatano]

It was definitely a bit ironic and a bit teasing, but in no way was an insult. But nvm, I really don't get offended through the net.

Fast decay is ok...but annoying and makes the game feel like a chore, while losing items on death makes the game exciting. Much better solution imo.

You are right about the 5 mins...originally I suggested 1 min lol but there was such a big uproar I gave in and altered to 5 mins :P

There would be no random drops for PvP death. It would be full looting just like now.

If a player would keep playing hazard with a friend the time it would consume from both of them wouldn't really be worth it imo.

I can live with a 1 hour corpse window. I just don't find it good for the economy.



The game is flooded with items, decay is slow, this would boost the economy and would avoid the really boring corpse runs.

The bold text conflicts, too. Decay is losing an item once it's broken.

Exploiting random drops with an alt or friend may not be worth it to you, but it will be to others, especially with regard to resource gathering. You've played MMOs, right? Many people do mind boggling things in these games.

Durability loss on items after any death. There ya go. Helps accomplish what you want, along with faster decay.


Book -

So what you're saying is that you don't want full loot. I could even say you don't want any looting. Potential players can read the game features before buying. If they X out because of losing their stuff, they did while in the know.

[MrDDT]

No idea how you read this from what I wrote :)

Nothing would change PvP looting wise...nothing. My suggestion is for PvE death penalty. If the devs decide to go for full item drop on PvE death I'm happy. If they choose to go for 1 hour corpse window I can live with that too but I'd like a boost for the economy so I prefer no corpse run.


My statement was in theory not a statement of what I was saying word for word of what you were saying. Its the "HOW" you are saying it. You say 1 thing, then say total opposite of it.

It would be like saying, I love cheese on my pizzas, but I dont want any cheese on the pizza. Its a "Huh?" moment because it makes no sense its almost like you are only saying you want something just to start a fight. Why even state the no cheese option, if you want a cheese? Just say you want cheese, and if everyone doesnt want cheese then it will come out with no cheese.

JCatano glad to have you back on the forums and posting. You are reading my mind in your statements.

Im glad someone else posts what I see. She does these things all the time, and acts like "Everyone" wants it.

[Jadzia]

The bold text conflicts, too. Decay is losing an item once it's broken.

Exploiting random drops with an alt or friend may not be worth it to you, but it will be to others, especially with regard to resource gathering. You've played MMOs, right? Many people do mind boggling things in these games.

Durability loss on items after any death. There ya go. Helps accomplish what you want, along with faster decay.

There is no conflict...decay is slow so we need something more to keep the economy going, fast decay is annoying so better to implement item loss on death. This is how I meant.

Durability loss is good if it is huge and there is no repair option.

DDT, your analogy is bad. Its more like I love cheese on my pizza, but I share that pizza with my friends....so I agree to have less cheese on it to make it enjoyable for them too.

[JCatano]

There is no conflict...decay is slow so we need something more to keep the economy going, fast decay is annoying so better to implement item loss on death. This is how I meant.

Durability loss is good if it is huge and there is no repair option.

DDT, your analogy is bad. Its more like I love cheese on my pizza, but I share that pizza with my friends....so I agree to have less cheese on it to make it enjoyable for them too.

Item loss and decay are the same things in the end. The item disappears.

It doesn't have to be slow or fast. It can be in the middle.

Repair can be an option... Each repair lowers the max durability, until it can be no longer repaired.

Pre-NGE (and maybe after) SWG had durability loss upon death, usage decay, and repairs lowering max durability. It worked very well. If it had looting, it would have worked that much better.

[MrDDT]

There is no conflict...decay is slow so we need something more to keep the economy going, fast decay is annoying so better to implement item loss on death. This is how I meant.

Durability loss is good if it is huge and there is no repair option.

DDT, your analogy is bad. Its more like I love cheese on my pizza, but I share that pizza with my friends....so I agree to have less cheese on it to make it enjoyable for them too.


If you say so, my point is still the same. You drop all your wants for a carebears. Yet you wouldnt do this for PVPers odd. Either way, most I believe in a sandbox type of game want full loot drop on death. Another reason to have it, is because of the economy, and exploiting travel part of it.

I see no reason to have it other than "Corpse runs" which can easy be thought of 2 things. 1) Its not real to have your items come with you after you revive from death (even if we could revive from death in real life, I would never expect my items to come with me), and 2) You should chalk it up as a loss soon as you die. PVP or PVE. If you get your stuff back, great.

Jordi already said that items were going to be fairly easy to replace and make. I see no reason not to keep with that idea.


I do understand your idea of "deleting items after xshort timer" but I dont agree. I think the time should be long enough for someone to get back to the location but not long enough to cause lag, or use as a storage grave.


Item loss and decay are the same things in the end. The item disappears.

It doesn't have to be slow or fast. It can be in the middle.

Repair can be an option... Each repair lowers the max durability, until it can be no longer repaired.

Pre-NGE (and maybe after) SWG had durability loss upon death, usage decay, and repairs lowering max durability. It worked very well. If it had looting, it would have worked that much better.

Yes I like dura, and maybe even QL loss on items as you die, or maybe dura loss with repair, and the dura loss is harsh so that sometimes need repairs which would cause the QL to drop.

I would love to see a good repair system in this game.

[JCatano]

Yes, DAoC also has the system where repairs lower max durability, along with the mechanic of lower effectiveness as your item drops below the max.

[Jadzia]

Its not real to have your items come with you after you revive from death (even if we could revive from death in real life, I would never expect my items to come with me)
This reasoning is great...seriously...I think I've never read funnier stuff on a forum :) Thanks for the laugh !

[NorCalGooey]

Item loss and decay are the same things in the end. The item disappears.

It doesn't have to be slow or fast. It can be in the middle.

Repair can be an option... Each repair lowers the max durability, until it can be no longer repaired.

Pre-NGE (and maybe after) SWG had durability loss upon death, usage decay, and repairs lowering max durability. It worked very well. If it had looting, it would have worked that much better.

Welcome back :D

I always thought that repair option was the plan they were implementing, exactly how you stated it.

[Book]

Book -

So what you're saying is that you don't want full loot. I could even say you don't want any looting. Potential players can read the game features before buying. If they X out because of losing their stuff, they did while in the know.

That's what I was saying? Oh, thanks for letting me know :p

Pretty basic concept in game design I think, hook the new players and aim for retention... but perhaps that's not something worth thinking about... /shrug.

Don't think I really care about full loot one way or the other really. Much more interested in the other things they're working on. To each his own, if that's alright with you of course.

[MrDDT]

That's what I was saying? Oh, thanks for letting me know :p

Pretty basic concept in game design I think, hook the new players and aim for retention... but perhaps that's not something worth thinking about... /shrug.

Don't think I really care about full loot one way or the other really. Much more interested in the other things they're working on. To each his own, if that's alright with you of course.


How does hooking new players and retention have to do with full loot or not? You saying that new players want no looting?

[Trenchfoot]

Here's some spice for the stew.

When should the act of looting (full or not) effect alignment status? Always, sometimes, never?

EDIT: Personally I would like to see it effect social/political status between tribes/alliances instead of/or in addition to possibly, good and evil. Just IMO.

[MrDDT]

Here's some spice for the stew.

When should the act of looting (full or not) effect alignment status? Always, sometimes, never?

Always, unless it was your kill and they were evil. Looting other peoples kills should be an evil act always.

[Trenchfoot]

Always, unless it was your kill and they were evil. Looting other peoples kills should be an evil act always.

So a good aligned friend wouldn't be able to loot his good aligned pal to save his stuff, without an alignment hit?

[Book]

How does hooking new players and retention have to do with full loot or not? You saying that new players want no looting?

No, JC decided to read my comment about how the calculations involved in whether or not to do a corpse run might affect new players vs. veteran players.. and instead just wanted to announce I don't want full-loot... whatever really. I've got a wall in this room here I can talk to. All good.

[Rudder]

I see everyone's panties have gotten into a wad again. There IS NOTHING in the game currently that cannot be replaced easily.

Enough with the whine about PVP or the lack of it.

[NorCalGooey]

So a good aligned friend wouldn't be able to loot his good aligned pal to save his stuff, without an alignment hit?

I agree with DDT quite often, but he's wrong here. Looting other people shouldn't be an evil act if they are part of your tribe or friends list. And it shouldn't even be that bad of an evil act...or maybe only have penalty for looting good players.

Player reputation shouldn't be easy to change, but not hard either. 1 kill of a good player shouldn't change you from a good player to a neutral or evil player. It should take killing 3 good players within a period of say, one month, for alignment to change.

[Rudder]

during early beta it was mentioned that the looting and/or killing of anyone - by anyone would result in a faction hit.

[MrDDT]

So a good aligned friend wouldn't be able to loot his good aligned pal to save his stuff, without an alignment hit?

My bad, I agree about "friends" or "allies" or "Tribemates" shouldnt take an hit on it. Better would be a "Do you allow so and so to loot you?" type thing.

[NorCalGooey]

Player loot options to allow tribe mates, friends, good, neutral and/or evil players the ability to loot without faction consequence.

[JCatano]

Book -

Yeah, that is my conclusion while trying to see through the lines. Are you the one who said you're going to argue the extreme opposite of issues or was that Mac-something?

If you don't care either way, let us manipulate Jordi on this issue, please. You can control him on other ones.

[Book]

Book -

Yeah, that is my conclusion while trying to see through the lines. Are you the one who said you're going to argue the extreme opposite of issues or was that Mac-something?

If you don't care either way, let us manipulate Jordi on this issue, please. You can control him on other ones.

Think that one was me if I'm remembering the same thing.

In my case, and in relation to this community, it was more of a reaction to what I felt was a constant barrage of rather extreme positions that didn't / couldn't hear me when I tried being reasonable. What honestly might have felt as reasonable to me, and seeking discourse, has very often been met by a brick wall, or even more often... "You stoopeed carebear! Go away!" I eventually have to respond in kind because at some point I start to think "I'm old, I'm tired, I'm pissed, and I'm done." Unreasonable seems to get through, kinda sad.

Wouldn't be my first choice. Incidentally, my primary interest is in reaching the person I'm actively talking to in the forum... not in reaching Jordi as I'm not generally speaking with Jordi in forum posts. Even when he does post, I don't think I've engaged him very often at all as I'd feel somewhat out of place. Other Devs? Yes, and always politely and jokingly at that. The boss? no. Heck, I feel funny even using the man's first name which is why I usually call him Xsyon. Strict or rather formal upbringing perhaps... who knows.

No interest in manipulating Jordi. If anything, I've said I kinda sometimes wish he took a little less input from the playerbase. Prefer a solid sense of one person leading the ship, lest we always fall prey to a mutiny every other month.

Don't feel too obliged to read between the lines. I think you'll find I'm mostly a straight-shooter, and sometimes respond with the extreme purely in response to another extreme.

Kind of like what my Grandmother used to say, a stupid question deserves a stupid answer.