How about Effort vs. Reward?

[Mactavendish]

Atm, this game does not have the mechanics for meaningful Risk vs. Reward. I probably will as time goes by.

( debate that all you want somewhere else, this thread is NOT about that )

What this game does have is Effort vs. Reward. Terraforming and architecture are to very good examples of what I mean.

You can use terraforming to build up a platform to place structures and with effort and creativity, come up with very unique buildings that are truly satisfying rewards for your efforts. And once we have a few more parts to work with ( next patch ) then the possibilities are even better.

It seems from comments here that many are not interested in having to spend effort and anything they don't find immediately fun... and it has to be something they already know and like or they won't even give it a try.

So, maybe instead of trying to get the game changed to what you already know, why not explore what you can do with what is here and manufacture your own content.

After all that is also one of the major features of this game.. Player created content. The Dev's supply the tools, WE create the world we live in.

[Dubanka]

Atm, this game does not have the mechanics for meaningful Risk vs. Reward. I probably will as time goes by.

( debate that all you want somewhere else, this thread is NOT about that )

What this game does have is Effort vs. Reward. Terraforming and architecture are to very good examples of what I mean.

You can use terraforming to build up a platform to place structures and with effort and creativity, come up with very unique buildings that are truly satisfying rewards for your efforts. And once we have a few more parts to work with ( next patch ) then the possibilities are even better.

It seems from comments here that many are not interested in having to spend effort and anything they don't find immediately fun... and it has to be something they already know and like or they won't even give it a try.

So, maybe instead of trying to get the game changed to what you already know, why not explore what you can do with what is here and manufacture your own content.

After all that is also one of the major features of this game.. Player created content. The Dev's supply the tools, WE create the world we live in.

you make the same post about every two weeks with your

IT'S NOT THE GAME...IT IS YOU THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

message.

your assumptions are comedy.

visit the middle of zone 700...you'll find vd. it's double [wet] moated, single dry moat [very very deep], limestone walled, with a central cathedral that is ~8 stories high, provide secure battlements and protection for the totem...oh and it has watersupply internal to it, so you can hole up defensively and not ever have to come out.

Personally, i can't get too into the crafting atm, very little point except for increasing my hps, and it's just mind numbing. I litterally can't stay awake once i start grinding.

So, Instead of unleashing your typical, ITS YOU ADD PVP PEOPLE THAT ARE THE PROBLEM diatribe...please look around...you'll probably find your pvp tribes are well prepared, even in their absentia...since that is what we do. We PVE because we have to to PVP...and typically we pve very very well. we just hate it.

so yeah. big cup of stfu to you.

http://www.retroplanet.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/25910.jpg

[MrDDT]

Atm, this game does not have the mechanics for meaningful Risk vs. Reward. I probably will as time goes by.

( debate that all you want somewhere else, this thread is NOT about that )

What this game does have is Effort vs. Reward. Terraforming and architecture are to very good examples of what I mean.

You can use terraforming to build up a platform to place structures and with effort and creativity, come up with very unique buildings that are truly satisfying rewards for your efforts. And once we have a few more parts to work with ( next patch ) then the possibilities are even better.

It seems from comments here that many are not interested in having to spend effort and anything they don't find immediately fun... and it has to be something they already know and like or they won't even give it a try.

So, maybe instead of trying to get the game changed to what you already know, why not explore what you can do with what is here and manufacture your own content.

After all that is also one of the major features of this game.. Player created content. The Dev's supply the tools, WE create the world we live in.


Im sorry, did I miss the reward for the effort of terraforming and architecture?

Can you please show me the reward? Because these 2 actions are the least rewarding in game, and you are saying there is a reward for them. Im very confused how you can use these 2 points as your effort vs reward.

[vorticon013]

The real problem with what you bring up "effort vs reward" , is that we are playing a game. Games are meant to be fun or otherwise engaging. Waiting and not using your mind for anything is not a reward of any kind, or effort in any sense of the word. There is no reward nor any effort, of course this is debateable.

But falling asleep while performing a "activity" is nonsene and for a different conversation.

I guess what Im getting at is that no one is expending effort really and the "rewards" are trivial at best. oooooo I can make a new tent... sheesh.

[Willowhawk]

Though I do understand Mactavendish view that building and creating your own little piece of the world is fun, and I do thoroughly enjoy this aspect of the game, I agree more with the others that it is still limiting. Once you have built your homestead, village, town or kingdom your pretty much done unless you want to tear down and start again. And I have been hesitant to invite players because I feel they will get bored in time and quit. So I am waiting for more added content before trying to grow our tribe.
The idea of player made quests is great too, but this also is limited to gathering quests. I need human skulls for a recipe and I would love to offer a quest for human skulls or even better a "player name" skulls :D but what do I offer as reward? Currently there is no value in anything and that is a game killer. I look forward to both tribal warfare with adversaries as well as making good alliances with friendly neighbors. Until then it is a gathering / crafting game. I also know it is a sandbox game but I still would like to see some added NPC PVE quest systems in time, but that's just me. I'm sure the game will evolve and I look forward to whatever it may be. Until then, we just make the best of what is here. Like Mac said, be creative ;)

[Book]

Ever see that Tom Hanks movie Cast Away? He's the lone survivor of a Fed Ex plane crash living on a deserted island with his volleyball named Wilson.

Scene where he's finally been able to make a fire, and he stands there screaming "look at what I have creaaaattteeeeddd!!!" I think that's the kind of reward Mac is talking about. I get that kind of reward as well and tend to think it's legit. Not claiming that needs to be the only type of reward out there... but there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

To me, it feels like building a great place requires a lot of thought. Then the challenge of execution. I don't mean that the action of terraforming is challenging, I mean bigger picture than that.

Whenever my homestead gets closer to completion, I wind up tearing it down and coming up with something else. Will likely do that again with the new architecture additions coming.

It's one part of the game I really, really enjoy. I think it's awesome that architecture has so many components, Dubanka can build with Defense in mind and come up with something that suits him perfectly, and I can build with crafting efficiency in mind and it suits me perfectly. I don't find that in too many other games at all.

Of course the argument that Dubanka now needs something to actually defend against is understood and perhaps, someday, in a very very unlikely future, I will actually give him a run for his money :p

Sidenote: Player-named skull used in crafting a piece of armor... now THAT's got some crazy mad potential there Willowhawk, I like it.

Edit/Addition:

:D but what do I offer as reward? Currently there is no value in anything and that is a game killer.

One idea might be to define yourself as a player who always has a certain item on as a reward. Say you can maintain a constant supply of belt buckles. People who need those eventually learn (word of mouth, or your adverts on forums) that they can come check your quest totem anytime they need belt buckles and see what they can go get to close the deal... ?

Or maybe one day more tribes will take on a currency like Apache did and I'll always offer dollars on my quest totem. People will know they can get dollars from me and in turn buy any number of items from a bigger tribe. I'm not quite sure what tribes themselves do with this currency but presumably they have their reasons for doing it.

[Trenchfoot]

I agree player freedom is essential. But then again so is adventure. Currently we don't have the tools to create a grand adventure, imo. Though we do have the tools to 'set the stage' to an extent.

[Willowhawk]

Good call Brook. I had not really thought about that but offering 10 buckles, especially of higher quality would definitely have some value and get some attention. I'm guessing that cash money will have validity in the future which I also guess is why a few tribes will take cash in trade. Heck I will take cash. I'm saving mine for that very reason. Sooner or later I think it will be the choice currency.

[MrDDT]

Good call Brook. I had not really thought about that but offering 10 buckles, especially of higher quality would definitely have some value and get some attention. I'm guessing that cash money will have validity in the future which I also guess is why a few tribes will take cash in trade. Heck I will take cash. I'm saving mine for that very reason. Sooner or later I think it will be the choice currency.

WillowHawk, message me in game if you want cash in game I have lots for trade.

[Dubanka]

Allignment based cradfting :)

Take a page from the baldurs gate 2 (before some of yalls time i presume) human skin armor quest...give a crafting line(s) that open up for evil player's use and creation...human armor (bone and leather), human weaponsmithing (bone handled xyz), and of course evil hunterd could butcher a human corpse like an animal.

A being able to create kil quests for specific players would be great - especially if you could return with a head (which of course you would mount on a pike along the city walls)

[Mactavendish]

Dub.. first off i'm not making assumptions, I am making observations.

Unlike you, I don't have to rant and rave about PvP being what will "save" this game.

What I am trying to do is get folks to think more and emo less. ( yep I do mean you as an emo, well you and bout 4 others actually )

If the rabid pvp/crush players were actually correct in their assumptions, then no pvp based game would ever get boring or lose players are get into financial trouble... But all that is true for any of the ones out now.

( please feel free to nitpick about some minor point here as it will surely change everyone's mind to your point of view )

[MrDDT]

Dub.. first off i'm not making assumptions, I am making observations.

Unlike you, I don't have to rant and rave about PvP being what will "save" this game.

What I am trying to do is get folks to think more and emo less. ( yep I do mean you as an emo, well you and bout 4 others actually )

If the rabid pvp/crush players were actually correct in their assumptions, then no pvp based game would ever get boring or lose players are get into financial trouble... But all that is true for any of the ones out now.

( please feel free to nitpick about some minor point here as it will surely change everyone's mind to your point of view )


I dont know what "emo" means, maybe its a new slang term for PVPer or something, but who is saying "PVP will make any game the work".

From what I understand Dub and others like myself are saying, is that the game was said to be FFA PVP, Full loot. Safe zones were to be removed after prelude and towards the end of prelude once players could build up and protect themselves.

I doubt we can change your view point, because you clearly do not look at facts you go off "feelings" which means you have no idea to look at something with a bias look. This game is meant to be a sandbox game. Right now it is very clear to most people the game was not release with the features it was said to have, also there is lacking a lot of things to keep people having fun in game.
Yes Im sure you and your 3 friends are having a gay ole time.

But most players that are looking at this game (being that most gamers are not, so you have to think of the players that would be looking at it, sandbox type with FFA PVP thoughts). This game is not fun. So saying that these rabid PVP/crush players are trying to say PVP will fix the game, is not really looking at it without bias.

Its not even PVP that we are saying will fix it. We are saying give people something to fight for, give reasons to build, give reasons to craft. Right now there is zero reason to build, fight, or craft. Other than it looks cool.

Once buildings, have a reason, walls have a reason, location has a reason, armor has more of a reason, weapons, and skills have reasons, and limitations on these. You will see the game start to grow. It doesnt need more content, it needs things working, and features turned on. Like contested totems, resources split up into regions, crafting mean something when you craft it use it and lose it.


If I were to lose every item I had, I wouldnt be upset at all. Because its all worthless to me. Everyday I think "I really hope this game gets a lot better, because if not Im wasting a ton of time. Should I even log in today?" Because I have no goals other than a few Ive said which I doubt anyone else would or could ever do.

Im really going to start wondering here this next month if no patches that are worth while I will have really nothing left to do. Soon (less than a month or 2) I will have all skills at 100. What should I do then?

[Dubanka]

Dub.. first off i'm not making assumptions, I am making observations.

Unlike you, I don't have to rant and rave about PvP being what will "save" this game.

What I am trying to do is get folks to think more and emo less. ( yep I do mean you as an emo, well you and bout 4 others actually )

If the rabid pvp/crush players were actually correct in their assumptions, then no pvp based game would ever get boring or lose players are get into financial trouble... But all that is true for any of the ones out now.

( please feel free to nitpick about some minor point here as it will surely change everyone's mind to your point of view )

You fail at the forum game.

1. I 'rant and rave' about achieving a level of balance within the game. I definitely do not advocate it becoming some version of gankland.
2. I definitely don't emo. you'll have to look in the mirror there.
3. Yes we all know that just because a game has pvp in it, well then its a WIN!!! (winning!) Right? Seriously, come up with some better material.

And i'm not trying to change anyone's mind...everyone's opinions are pretty much set...you might move someone a couple percent in either direct, but thats about it. Most of what i try to do is engage in a constructive, someone intelligent, discourse regarding some portion of the game. I do this, because it is apparent that the devs are still figuring out not just how they want to do stuff, but what do they want to do...and a good discussion can bring about some decent ideas.

I know you'd prefer that we just sit here in silence and play the simulation and wait for fixes and content and whatnot. You'd rather everyone just mirror your own opinion, so you can pat your self on the back with the affirmation that yes, you are good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like you. I'm not one of those people, so apologies.

[Mactavendish]

heh.

You and ddt both seem to think I'm trying to win against you two. Self-important much? I am only interested in developers making good progress and enjoy the game like it is.

And of course your are trying to change someones minds.. The developers.

You are right that I believe your broken record like posts are very tiresome to me, but then again mine are to you right? so I guess we are even on that point. :)

And you again are wrong when you think I want everyone's opinion to mirror mine... What I actually want is the developers to make better progress, clearly state what they intend to do on the very subjects you always post about, and maybe that will stop some of this mindless bickering.

[NorCalGooey]

This is funny...and I will continue to ask this until you can come up with a better solution.

Mac, what do you guys do after you build aesthetic tribe lands, craft aesthetic items, and level skills to gain HP for non existent player conflict either in PVE or PVP?

Sit in a circle doing emotes and singing Kumbaya?

[MrDDT]

heh.

You and ddt both seem to think I'm trying to win against you two. Self-important much? I am only interested in developers making good progress and enjoy the game like it is.

And of course your are trying to change someones minds.. The developers.

You are right that I believe your broken record like posts are very tiresome to me, but then again mine are to you right? so I guess we are even on that point. :)

And you again are wrong when you think I want everyone's opinion to mirror mine... What I actually want is the developers to make better progress, clearly state what they intend to do on the very subjects you always post about, and maybe that will stop some of this mindless bickering.


I dont see how offering ideas, and working out problems is "changing" someones mind.

Unlike you, some people see there are problems with the game, and work on trying to offer ideas and work out the problems. Instead of saying "Everything is grand, whatever the devs do is great" most people call you a "fanboi". But Im sure you are happy with the 3 people you are playing with. Until the day comes one of your friends or more see the problems we see, or end up quitting for other reasons.

Then you will quit, without a word to another game. All the while not understanding how you damaged the game with your posts and thoughts of "Oh the game is great" you wont be there to really try to fix the game.

[Dubanka]

heh.

You and ddt both seem to think I'm trying to win against you two. Self-important much? I am only interested in developers making good progress and enjoy the game like it is.

And of course your are trying to change someones minds.. The developers.

You are right that I believe your broken record like posts are very tiresome to me, but then again mine are to you right? so I guess we are even on that point. :)

And you again are wrong when you think I want everyone's opinion to mirror mine... What I actually want is the developers to make better progress, clearly state what they intend to do on the very subjects you always post about, and maybe that will stop some of this mindless bickering.

Trying to 'win' against you? Me stating you fail, means you suck...your posts are incoherent whiny drivel that offer very little in the way of anything besides fanboi proseltyzing.

my broken record posts encompass thoughts around things like combat mechanics, weapon balance, siege warfare implementation, balancing 'end game' gameplay between pve and pvp players, you know, stupid posts that lack much anything in the way of constructive ideas and rarely serve any purpose other than to add to my own post count. They rarely spur any degree of discussion on the topic. On the other hand, your posts are extraordinarily insightful and delve deeply into current and future gameplay elements...or wait, you just post complaints about other people having opinions on the current state of the game.

xoxo.

[Book]

There's some Bob Dylan song, I forget which one, but he mentions people who would rather pull you into the hole they're in than consider allowing you to pull them up and out of it.

Some people bought the game and found that there's something in it that they like. That shouldn't be a problem, isn't really necessary for everyone to be as miserable as the next guy. It certainly doesn't mean the devs are going to read that opinion and think "YES! we're done! woohoo!"

Some people bought the game, convinced all their friends to buy the game, and then realized there's nothing in its current inception that they like. That's unfortunate. The original design is being changed to include sieges and various other things to accommodate those folks. If it were to happen overnight, you might like it, but it probably wouldn't have much of an intellectual challenge to it and we'd wind up with pewpew my macro good! yarr! Would be an unfortunate step backwards imho. No no, wait, I actually am entitled to mho.

Now, I suppose, one answer might be to pounce on people like Mac at every opportunity in the hopes they'll cower away and never post again. Someone pointed out there's actually people who post with the intent of "manipulating" the dev team. Odd concept frankly but I suppose that would be easier if different points of view were chased off the forums with great remarks like "you suck, you fail, stfu" etc.

Perhaps he really IS saying that pvp people are the problem. I don't really see that as being the case and didn't think Mac did either honestly... but how is that any different from the other people running around saying carebears are the problem at every mind-numbing, boring opportunity? Aside from the fact that one is your personal opinion, and the other might be his personal opinion.

/shrug. I hope the game changes to whatever people need so they can save face to all their little friends and we can move on to more interesting, intellectually stimulating subjects.

[Shrimps]

. . .Some people bought the game, convinced all their friends to buy the game, and then realized there's nothing in its current inception that they like. That's unfortunate. The original design is being changed to include sieges and various other things to accommodate those folks. . .


When did this happen exactly?

For months before beta was even public we were having discussions about sieges and Open world PVP with no safe zones, and at the time that I and many others bought the game there wasn't even a hint that there was any intent to have permanent safe zones. It was the understanding at that time that there would be safe zones only for prelude and that the karma system and war upkeep would regulate the warfare to dedicated grudges, and limit random griefers to almost nothing.

It wasn't until open beta got well along and the game got more popular that the idea of permanent safe zones was even entertained. People seem to have forgotten about the fact that the karma system if balanced right and with harsh enough penalties, could solve the whole problem. Everyone seems to be enjoying the arguing too much to actually look for solutions though.

Either way if you want to say that either party "ruined" the game, it would be whichever side deviated from the original idea of no safe zones.

[Book]

When did this happen exactly?

For months before beta was even public we were having discussions about sieges and Open world PVP with no safe zones, and at the time that I and many others bought the game there wasn't even a hint that there was any intent to have permanent safe zones. It was the understanding at that time that there would be safe zones only for prelude and that the karma system and war upkeep would regulate the warfare to dedicated grudges, and limit random griefers to almost nothing.

It wasn't until open beta got well along and the game got more popular that the idea of permanent safe zones was even entertained. People seem to have forgotten about the fact that the karma system if balanced right and with harsh enough penalties, could solve the whole problem. Everyone seems to be enjoying the arguing too much to actually look for solutions though.

Either way if you want to say that either party "ruined" the game, it would be whichever side deviated from the original idea of no safe zones.


I hear ya. I'm basing that off Xsyon saying that sieging wasn't part of the original design, but beats me when what was decided. Not trying to call him on it, or you, or anyone else really. More interesting to consider what's ahead, and I see no problem with the Dev team making changes to fit as time goes on. Nature of the business I think.

I've heard many people mention the need for the alignment system as well, in fact I think it's one of the weekly questions in the dev zone this week. If I understood, I think agriculture is next on the list after this next patch. Maybe that's something that is mostly ready and needs less design/big thoughts than the alignment system. I would assume they can have big thoughts on that while they finish coding the farming stuff... provided they have enough coffee on hand of course.

It may well be that sturdy gates and strong alignment system will be the right fix. It makes sense that people express whatever concerns they have with any of it. For instance, if someone gets through my gate and totem camps me... what do I do? Maybe a tamed bear takes care of them, maybe something else. Maybe my religious faith is so strong they will be struck down by lightning... beats me.

Getting too entrenched doesn't really make sense in either direction. At the end of the day, I think everyone wants a system that works and allows them to feel relatively secure they are investing their time in a world that will fit them in most ways. Not likely all, but most is probably somewhat necessary to retain a player.

Another 150 baskets today. Halfway through the order I'm trying to fill, and a good chat in-game that made the time move by faster. All in all, not a bad day in XsyonWorld.

Edit: Just one last thing before moving on, when you say "we" were talking about sieges... are you including developers in that "we?" Developers obviously do seem to listen to the player base, and take some input. However, just because "we" talk about anything doesn't mean it has anything to do with the developer's final business driven decision. "We" are not running things, however much some of "us" may like to believe "we" do. For good measure since I'm saying it so much... "we!" :)

[Bizley]

If this game succeeds, I'll be very interested to discover whether money becomes valuable. Personally, I won't be accepting money at all, and neither will a good many others I'm betting. 1. Because money has no intrinsic value other than being an accepted norm, and 2. Because money changes a colorful world into black and white, everything being a different shade of the same generic quantity, and nothing is valued any longer for its actual function but rather its ranking in the currency.

[Dubanka]

Some people bought the game, convinced all their friends to buy the game, and then realized there's nothing in its current inception that they like. That's unfortunate. The original design is being changed to include sieges and various other things to accommodate those folks. If it were to happen overnight, you might like it, but it probably wouldn't have much of an intellectual challenge to it and we'd wind up with pewpew my macro good! yarr! Would be an unfortunate step backwards imho. No no, wait, I actually am entitled to mho.

Now, I suppose, one answer might be to pounce on people like Mac at every opportunity in the hopes they'll cower away and never post again. Someone pointed out there's actually people who post with the intent of "manipulating" the dev team. Odd concept frankly but I suppose that would be easier if different points of view were chased off the forums with great remarks like "you suck, you fail, stfu" etc.

Perhaps he really IS saying that pvp people are the problem. I don't really see that as being the case and didn't think Mac did either honestly... but how is that any different from the other people running around saying carebears are the problem at every mind-numbing, boring opportunity? Aside from the fact that one is your personal opinion, and the other might be his personal opinion.

/shrug. I hope the game changes to whatever people need so they can save face to all their little friends and we can move on to more interesting, intellectually stimulating subjects.

Care to dance?

As i've said many times, there is actually quite a lot about the game to like (otherwise I wouldn't still be here)...it just lacks cohesion, and a 'point' to make it actually a game (currently it's more a sim). [Insert it's the players, not the games fault argument here]. The rest of that paragraph is pretty much nonsensical...no one here is promoting macros, nothing will happen overnight, and we're not entitled to anything (other than a functionally complete product...that debate has been had ad nauseum).

I typically try to be constructive in my posts. Mac's style is more to call everyone who doesn't like the status quo whiners, etc. If you're going to 'call me out' for my posts, well i guess i should just turn the other cheek....and no, mac doesn't have a point of view besides 'everyone who doesnt like it should stfu and quit whining, the devs know what they're doing'...that is not constructive, and doesn't even make for an interesting discussion.

I don't really hear people saying 'carebears are the proplem'. I think all the pvp proponents understand that the world needs to exist with some semblance of balance for both sides. All the pvp types propose solutions to issues that try to balance the combatants with the nons. In resposne, we typically get the 'why should i have to pvp to get x, i should just get it' argument. So while ii don't think carebears are the problem, there is a very vocal contingent on that side of the fence that wants a solution that has nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with getting everything they want. Does that make them a problem? *Shrug* up for the devs to decide.

This is all just discussion until solutions are implemented, or until xsyon states that they wont be. At which time everyone can vote with their wallet.

Until that point is reached, I am very against anyone that comes on the forums and tells us just to eat our shit sandwich and like it...mainly those posts confuse me...why is discussion a bad thing?

[Mactavendish]

You know you guys never seem to be able to remember when I agree with you.

I do not think pvp'rs are the problem, I fully understood that open full loot pvp was a part of this game.. and still I joined and started player... imagine that.

I have said from my very first posts that there was too many resources, that we should have needs drive player interactions, and that things like the scroll bars, growing trees and working defense structures need to be finished and done.

I think there are a very few I would characterize as whiners.

I don't want the status quo anymore than you, but as I have said, I think this game is not finished enough yet, to be complaining about things that may or may not even take place. Discussions are fine, but I do believe it's you and ddt that have been abusive in your reactions to other posters not me. When you feel you are not being listened to, you 2 will stoop to name calling and try to spin a posters comments into what you want to hear not listen to what they say.

I don't have to like your opinion nor do i have to appreciate anything you say IF what you say is something I disagree with. I don't need your permission to say that .. its fact.

If either of you truly believe my comments can run off players, does that not also apply to you as well when you shout as loud as you can how bad the game is? All I am doing it trying to counter you both by saying that for many that actually play this game we still have enjoyment and can be occupied until things are more filled out.

This will be the last time I directly respond to either you or ddt. Mostly because it help feed your need to rant, and partly because I have no interest anymore in what you are saying.

Bait all you like.. I'm putting you both on ignore. ( what is funny is you will most likely feel you have "won" )

[Book]

Care to dance?

great, I'm gonna need years of therapy to get that disturbing mental imagine out of my head... thanks a lot :p


we typically get the 'why should i have to pvp to get x, i should just get it' argument. So while ii don't think carebears are the problem, there is a very vocal contingent on that side of the fence that wants a solution that has nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with getting everything they want.


I think this is a miscommunication / misunderstanding... unless it isn't and it's just not considered valid... dunno.

It's not so much "should just get it." I mean, I don't think anyone would find it fun for things to magically appear in a basket whenever they want it.

The notion is to have accessibility in a way other than pvp. Maybe it's fighting difficult zombies, maybe it's taming a large mama bear to battle the pvper (or just to help out a little), maybe it's the shaman's special cayenne pepper blinding dust... any number of possibilities. Could very well be trade as well of course, but that does necessitate access to something worth trading without necessarily having to pvp for it.

Balance is good, but it doesn't necessarily have to mean forced pvp for it to be balanced. I *think* that's what some are saying... at least, that's how I see it and how I understand what they're saying. Maybe that's how you understood it as well and just don't think it's balanced that way... not quite sure.

[MrDDT]

You know you guys never seem to be able to remember when I agree with you.

I do not think pvp'rs are the problem, I fully understood that open full loot pvp was a part of this game.. and still I joined and started player... imagine that.

I have said from my very first posts that there was too many resources, that we should have needs drive player interactions, and that things like the scroll bars, growing trees and working defense structures need to be finished and done.

I think there are a very few I would characterize as whiners.

I don't want the status quo anymore than you, but as I have said, I think this game is not finished enough yet, to be complaining about things that may or may not even take place. Discussions are fine, but I do believe it's you and ddt that have been abusive in your reactions to other posters not me. When you feel you are not being listened to, you 2 will stoop to name calling and try to spin a posters comments into what you want to hear not listen to what they say.

I don't have to like your opinion nor do i have to appreciate anything you say IF what you say is something I disagree with. I don't need your permission to say that .. its fact.

If either of you truly believe my comments can run off players, does that not also apply to you as well when you shout as loud as you can how bad the game is? All I am doing it trying to counter you both by saying that for many that actually play this game we still have enjoyment and can be occupied until things are more filled out.

This will be the last time I directly respond to either you or ddt. Mostly because it help feed your need to rant, and partly because I have no interest anymore in what you are saying.

Bait all you like.. I'm putting you both on ignore. ( what is funny is you will most likely feel you have "won" )


I love how people cant debate the points of a topic so they direct to personal attacks.

You havnt even answered my first question of where is the reward for terraforming and architecture?

After you combat the points maybe you might have the right to talk about how you might not like someone or something. Now granted you likely wont comment to this because you are ignoring me, but you will most likely think you won because you called out someone names and now you put your fingers in your ears.

Good luck with that. I'm sure it serves you well in life.

[NorCalGooey]

This will be the last time I directly respond to either you or ddt.

Good. The sooner the better. The more you do the worse you look.

Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant than open it up and remove all doubt.

[Shrimps]

Might as well lock this thread, it's not going anywhere good from here, the trolls crashed the party.

I kind've miss B.A.C., at least they made trolling look classy.

[Dubanka]

http://dunzi.wippiespace.com/pics/trollin-hatin.jpg