AR leader explaining why he and most quit Xsyon

[NorCalGooey]

Just thought I would share this message with you guys. I found it very relevant to what people are talking about lately on the forums. One simple thing, broken promises and changes to the original plan.

Long time Xsyon beta player and 3 year guild leader of Audacian Republic, KINSLAYER, explaining to me why he and most of the long time AR members quit Xsyon (we currently don't play any game completely actively as a tribe, but still have our forums setup..I guess we are all just waiting for that next big game, or Xsyon to patch something interesting...but the problem is they have SO MUCH to patch.)

As my personal commentary, this couldn't be anymore accurate. So I am going to make it size 3.

FOREWARNING:, if you like Xsyon and want to keep playing it, you might not want to read this...as I almost want to quit now.


Post on our forum from Kinslayer responding to me
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I love world building content if its done right. I just think Xsyon has missed the mark slightly. It doesnt need huge improvements, but it does need a lot of refinement.

But as you say, player interaction is where the game breaks down, not just in PvP, but also in things like recipes and resources. We were always told, back in beta, that recipes will be unique to individuals, that no one tribe will be able to be self sufficient, much less a single person. Unfortunately the game hasnt turned out like that.

As I've said many times in the past couple of months, I can no longer promote a game Im not excited about personally. If Xsyon can make some simple improvements and refinements, hopefully my excitement for the game will return, and Im not just talking combat. It goes deeper than that.

But to answer your question about whats different now, well, not much, and thats the problem. Also, some simple things we were told during beta have gone in the opposite direction, like the lack of unique recipes among different players. I have toolcrafting at level 20 or so I think it is, and I can make any tool I need. So not only am I self sufficient for tools, so is the tribe Im in. If I spent the time to train another 6 skills to 30 or 50, in some cases 80, I could be self sufficient in all skills. Thats far from a good thing. We were told 8-12mths ago that it wouldnt be like that.

Also, as I said before, we were told Prelude would only last for 6-12mths, and during that time we would see heaps of cool stuff like agriculture and religion implemented, not to mention more lore. Nothing there yet. We were originally told also that safe zones will only last for 6-9mths during Prelude before they would be removed. Then in comes a wave of carebears, and we are apparently stuck with them, again, not a good thing. We proved in the first 3 weeks of release that safe zones are a bad idea and will be exploited.

So now I believe they are implementing a new zone with true open PvP and rare resources? How, as a tribe, are we to benefit from that without abandoning our totem? Are expansion totems being introduced along with that? If not, by the time they are implemented, it will be too late. Once again, this is a thing that hasnt been thought through properly by the devs, and that remains one of the biggest problems with the development of Xsyon, the lack of thinking things through sufficiently before either diving into something, or announcing something on the forum.

These may all seem petty or minor things, but when all lumped together on top of one another, it becomes a lot of disappointment. Hell, feel free to copy and paste this stuff to the Xsyon forum if you want, perhaps Jooky should read this kind of feedback.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, this is basically a summary of all the back and forth on the multiple threads where people argue about the most important issues.

[Rudder]

Can I have your stuff?

[NorCalGooey]

You serious? That's what you bring to the thread? I don't have a great deal of personal items and I'm not going to give away all of the tribes items. There's always the possiblity for a miracle. I'm not quitting anyways. I said I almost want to quit (i meant this moment). I'm giving it until the end of August.

[Aiden]

I have 10-15 friends that are looking for a game to make their new home as a tribe. I play completely solo right now because I tell them on a daily basis that this game is a long, long, long way from being finished...and the post by Kinslayer highlights one of the major reasons I believe that...

There are TONS of little things that could have been done slightly different which would have caused this game to be a THRIVING community-interaction based world...instead of a population: 10 wasteland where everyone (I AM A HOMESTEADER AND CAN MAKE EVERYTHING I NEED) is self-sufficient...how "realistic" is that?

[NorCalGooey]

It's truly sad isn't it Aiden. Even in 2011 in real life, we aren't self sufficient. We are very reliant on society (most people anyways) and trade. You would think with exponentially less resources in the world people would have to trade even more (no overabundance worldwide, perhaps have even a shortage of most resources in one specific area, but an overabundance of a few resources)..and they would. Problem is Xsyon isn't like that at ALL like you pointed out.

Hell, even in 2011 we still trade for REGIONAL resources. Some stuff just grows better in certain areas of the world, and some stuff can ONLY grow in certain areas of the world. Or some things can only be naturally found in certain areas of the world.

THRIVING community-interaction based world... has a nice ring to it.

Added after 5 minutes:

It's also sad how the devs can't see that safe zones that are instant and free to make, anytime (within a 6 hour window, dropping the totem), anywhere in the world, can't work. There is too much exploitation...not to mention...boring....

The reason I am still playing the game is because in the end I KNOW as FACT that carebear ideas will be tossed out or game dies (one of two options). This game CANNOT survive any other way. It was not designed to be a theme park crafting simulator. The DEVS know it too, they are just waiting to implement other major features and polish the game BEFORE they bring back a massive wave of players via safe zone removal AND advertising. They only get ONE chance at that and they know that as well. It's just sad that it SEEMS it's going to take a while before the game is in a state where they can remove safe zones, advertise, and populate the game.

edit: of course if Jordi is a millionaire and doesn't need the money, the game can survive anyway he chooses. I didn't mean the game wouldn't survive budget wise though (although it wouldn't unless he's rich), I meant population and reputation wise.

[Book]

I can't say I agree, nor can I say I disagree, with everything he's saying.

However, if I were to play devil's advocate for a minute, I might mention some of the following:

1) Kinslayer was heard and listened to when it came to staggered downtimes. So there is some direct and tangible evidence that he isn't ignored or unheard in his needs / wants. A sensible and feasible compromise was implemented by the devs. Perhaps they're still devising similar, workable compromises on some of the other issues.

2) If prelude is to be 6 to 12 months, then we're looking at September 15, 2011, to March 15, 2012. Perhaps his past year of experience leads him to believe things like agriculture or religion won't actually be added in that time. Difficult to speak to that because I don't have that year of experience with this company, nor does the company have the same set of employees minus a few. I believe most developers are fairly recent, which is one reason Xsyon has given for needing to catch up on things. Still, the understood prelude, at it's longest, is nowhere near over. One shall see.

3) Far as the safe zones, I may have your position confused with someone else's... apologies if that's the case. I thought you felt capital totems should not be destructible because people put so much time into them? If so, that's not far from what those you would consider carebears have come to agree with. Myself as an example, I used to believe safe zones would be adequate, but understand a number aren't all that happy with them. So, a capital totem like the one I think you've mentioned and a gate to keep me safe from too much babysitting duty would work. I know of other so-called carebears that have said the very same thing.

4) I don't think I remember Jordi himself ever saying he was planning different pvp rules for different zones? Might have missed it. I know that's something players have talked about, and in an environment where players are listened to a lot... it does make one wonder if what is said on forums will eventually become the reality. My thought on that is we will see viable attempts at compromise from the devs... where feasible and workable. Some on the extreme carebear thoughts of things won't be happy with it. Some on the extreme side of whatever you want to call the opposite of a carebear won't be happy with it... but hopefully a healthy number of middle-roaders will be having a great old time and inviting all of their friends.

/ end devil's advocate.

I made 100 baskets today. I learned something new to me about gathering grass and being able to consistently get "high quality" grass. I got my basketry skill up to 50 which means when I get back home after this trade I'll be able to make better grass armor, or maybe even better skirts :p. I'm going through the grind I have to to raise my skill, but I have a trade with MrDDT that means I'm very happy with what I will get for that grind rather than just grinding for the sake of it.

Taking a break helped me get back into the game a bit. Hopefully that will be the case for many more others as well.

[NorCalGooey]

I can't say I agree, nor can I say I disagree, with everything he's saying.

However, if I were to play devil's advocate for a minute, I might mention some of the following:

1) Kinslayer was heard and listened to when it came to staggered downtimes. So there is some direct and tangible evidence that he isn't ignored or unheard in his needs / wants. A sensible and feasible compromise was implemented by the devs. Perhaps they're still devising similar, workable compromises on some of the other issues.

2) If prelude is to be 6 to 12 months, then we're looking at September 15, 2011, to March 15, 2012. Perhaps his past year of experience leads him to believe things like agriculture or religion won't actually be added in that time. Difficult to speak to that because I don't have that year of experience with this company, nor does the company have the same set of employees minus a few. I believe most developers are fairly recent, which is one reason Xsyon has given for needing to catch up on things. Still, the understood prelude, at it's longest, is nowhere near over. One shall see.

3) Far as the safe zones, I may have your position confused with someone else's... apologies if that's the case. I thought you felt capital totems should not be destructible because people put so much time into them? If so, that's not far from what those you would consider carebears have come to agree with. Myself as an example, I used to believe safe zones would be adequate, but understand a number aren't all that happy with them. So, a capital totem like the one I think you've mentioned and a gate to keep me safe from too much babysitting duty would work. I know of other so-called carebears that have said the very same thing.

4) I don't think I remember Jordi himself ever saying he was planning different pvp rules for different zones? Might have missed it. I know that's something players have talked about, and in an environment where players are listened to a lot... it does make one wonder if what is said on forums will eventually become the reality. My thought on that is we will see viable attempts at compromise from the devs... where feasible and workable. Some on the extreme carebear thoughts of things won't be happy with it. Some on the extreme side of whatever you want to call the opposite of a carebear won't be happy with it... but hopefully a healthy number of middle-roaders will be having a great old time and inviting all of their friends.

/ end devil's advocate.

I made 100 baskets today. I learned something new to me about gathering grass and being able to consistently get "high quality" grass. I got my basketry skill up to 50 which means when I get back home after this trade I'll be able to make better grass armor, or maybe even better skirts :p. I'm going through the grind I have to to raise my skill, but I have a trade with MrDDT that means I'm very happy with what I will get for that grind rather than just grinding for the sake of it.

Taking a break helped me get back into the game a bit. Hopefully that will be the case for many more others as well.

I wouldn't consider you a carebear in the slightest if your safe zone was walls you worked for to build to provide your safe zone. Also wouldn't call you a carebear in the slightest for wanting no capital totem capture. That's fine because Jordi never said anything about capital totem capture, just safe zone removal. Plus, it's just a downright bad idea to forceably remove the last remaining place someone has to call home (the capital totem area). Mutual agreement capital totem capture would work, but my goodness, that would be some high stakes warfare. I for one would NEVER engage in it.

Carebears (relating to safe zones) are those who want to be able to place a safe zone anywhere, at anytime, instantly, for free.

edit: I learned something new today too. Higher foraging skill (maybe scav too?) = faster resource gathering.

I love how I constantly am learning stuff about this game, even though I am one of the most active in the game. That is a very large positive for me, although it must be tough to be a newbie and not know anything. That's why I'm making a guide with the help of all the Xsyon players, because newbies hardly stand a chance at rolling the character they want to roll...and understanding how the game works before they quit.

[Aiden]

Yeah NorCal...my wife and I talked about this some when we were considering getting two accounts...

I can start with basketry and as long as I don't mind grinding a lot, I can make ANYTHING....all by myself. It may not be quite as high quality as the person next to me, but really...that's not going to matter much.

If I can craft what I need, why in the world would I travel halfway across the map to get something with +1....

Recipes need to be limited...resources need to be regional...and there needs to be a significant skill-cap in place. Xsyon will NEVER feel like a world if a tribe (or homesteader) never NEEDS or WANTS for anything outside of their four walls...

[Shrimps]

I wouldn't consider you a carebear in the slightest if your safe zone was walls you worked for to build to provide your safe zone. Also wouldn't call you a carebear in the slightest for wanting no capital totem capture. That's fine because Jordi never said anything about capital totem capture, just safe zone removal. Plus, it's just a downright bad idea to forceably remove the last remaining place someone has to call home (the capital totem area). Mutual agreement capital totem capture would work, but my goodness, that would be some high stakes warfare. I for one would NEVER engage in it.

Carebears (relating to safe zones) are those who want to be able to place a safe zone anywhere, at anytime, instantly, for free.

edit: I learned something new today too. Higher foraging skill (maybe scav too?) = faster resource gathering.

I love how I constantly am learning stuff about this game, even though I am one of the most active in the game. That is a very large positive for me, although it must be tough to be a newbie and not know anything. That's why I'm making a guide with the help of all the Xsyon players, because newbies hardly stand a chance at rolling the character they want to roll...and understanding how the game works before they quit.

I feel like I need to point something out that this post made me realize. One of the big things about this game is that there are no NPC's or NPC cities and that the world is shaped by the players.

Well if there is no "Capital" totem capture then doesn't that mean the city is essentially permanent and immovable? And in turn doesn't that basically make it an NPC city? So if the big argument is that you shouldn't lose your main city because you'd have nowhere to go, then why not just have permanent NPC cities?

What's the difference besides who gets to design it?

Anyways sorry for going off topic, I don't agree with Kinslayer all the time but he's more or less spot on. But then again this has been said quite a few places already.

[mmogaddict]

Appollo (or anyone else from AR) feel free to pop by www.theoldergamers.com - I'm mostly playing World of Tanks while waiting for the next decent game to give a try to.

Send me a PM there.

Take care, Xsyon really is a wasteland.

[Saorlan]

You serious? That's what you bring to the thread? I don't have a great deal of personal items and I'm not going to give away all of the tribes items. There's always the possiblity for a miracle. I'm not quitting anyways. I said I almost want to quit (i meant this moment). I'm giving it until the end of August.

You my friend need to get a sense of humor. Seriously go to WOW already.

[MrDDT]

Can I have Kinslayers stuff? More stuff with his name on it the better.

[NorCalGooey]

You my friend need to get a sense of humor. Seriously go to WOW already.

Has nothing to do with sense of humor. Whatever, I saw ZERO reason for a post like that when this is a completely serious thread.

Posting like "Can I has your stuffz?? Idc what the thread says just gimme STUFFZ!"

I absolutely HATE when people like you come in and act like they know anything about someone they of course don't even know. Even if that was PURELY a joke, it wasn't even CLOSE to funny. If it was serious, he's missing the point of the thread. Sorry that I would rather have more focused discussion.

Also, your post and this one have nothing to do with the OP. So let's get back on topic

[Saorlan]

I absolutely HATE when people like you come in and act like they know anything about someone they of course don't even know. Even if that was PURELY a joke, it wasn't even CLOSE to funny. If it was serious, he's missing the point of the thread.

Yes you hate it because you have zero sense of humor and take things like this game far to seriously. I suggest you go back to WOW whilst myself and the others that take this thread for what it is - a joke take all your stuff.

How many posts do we have to read with people explaining why they left an MMO. You know what? We could care less. You think the developer is actually going to read the reasons? So we all we are left with saying is "Can I have your stuff" and "go back to WOW" because those statements are about as equally pointless as the reason why Mr Kingslayer has left this game.

[NorCalGooey]

You are a complete moron if you think the devs don't read the reasons. You should get off this game it's completely obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

Figures, Animal Crackers. Starting shit on another thread...seriously. I know this is the only PVP you have but you don't have to derail every thread.

Get off my thread or get on topic.

By the way, you didn't have to read it. You didn't have to even open the thread. You knew what was inside. Are you now supporting the games current state or something? or is Kinslayer way off base here?

On topic

[billpaustin]

If this was a Monopoly game, all you could do is roll the dice and move around the board. There are no game systems implemented. Loot and money exist, but have no function. Buildings exist, but have no function. The game is a sandbox with only sand, no tools to do anything with the sand. So all you can do is make sand piles and throw sand at each other. Boring. My tribe (probably the biggest) is almost totally inactive because of this.

[MrDDT]

Yes you hate it because you have zero sense of humor and take things like this game far to seriously. I suggest you go back to WOW whilst myself and the others that take this thread for what it is - a joke take all your stuff.

How many posts do we have to read with people explaining why they left an MMO. You know what? We could care less. You think the developer is actually going to read the reasons? So we all we are left with saying is "Can I have your stuff" and "go back to WOW" because those statements are about as equally pointless as the reason why Mr Kingslayer has left this game.

You know whats even more funny. Is the stuff anyone has is next to worthless in this game haha. So even getting someones stuff is worthless.

[xyberviri]

If this was a Monopoly game, all you could do is roll the dice and move around the board. There are no game systems implemented. Loot and money exist, but have no function. Buildings exist, but have no function. The game is a sandbox with only sand, no tools to do anything with the sand. So all you can do is make sand piles and throw sand at each other. Boring. My tribe (probably the biggest) is almost totally inactive because of this.

Yup i dont know how many apache are left but i can count the ones i talk to on a daily basis on one hand.

thats in teamspeak not in game, i haven't logged in since the last test update and that was only to the test server

[afterclap]

Yes you hate it because you have zero sense of humor and take things like this game far to seriously. I suggest you go back to WOW whilst myself and the others that take this thread for what it is - a joke take all your stuff.

How many posts do we have to read with people explaining why they left an MMO. You know what? We could care less. You think the developer is actually going to read the reasons? So we all we are left with saying is "Can I have your stuff" and "go back to WOW" because those statements are about as equally pointless as the reason why Mr Kingslayer has left this game.

Seriously dude, what's your beef? 'go back to WoW?' that so old and lame. No value i those "i'm so cool cause i hate games that are mainstream, yay" statements. Phrases like that doesnt make anyone take you seriously.

And what do you know about dev's reading goodbye-posts? Obviously not much sine if i recall it correctly a guide said on these forums that leaving the test server open to ppl even without a sub was a choice made after they read that many pointed out combat as one of the reasons they quit.
Even tho they didn't read them why shouldn't they? All constructive feedback i healthy even if it's nothing they want to apply to their vision of the game.

[Niburu]

I totally aggree with everything he said. This is also my view on the things and i don't understand why developers can't get a proper character system ( after all the basics are there it only needs adjustments that you can't skill everything ). Yes people WILL be annoyed that they can't be good fighters AND good gatherers BUT thats what we want....roles.




But as you say, player interaction is where the game breaks down, not just in PvP, but also in things like recipes and resources. We were always told, back in beta, that recipes will be unique to individuals, that no one tribe will be able to be self sufficient, much less a single person. Unfortunately the game hasnt turned out like that.


100%

and also the wall argument 100% true. the capital city should ofc not be contested at any time because after all its a game and it is not fun to lose weeks of gameplay. The additonal slots could also mean losing weeks of gameplay but they are optional and with more local ressources ( yes not every region should be good for everything. If one region is bad for metal for example than thats how the game is ) you gain more power

[Rudder]

You serious? That's what you bring to the thread? I don't have a great deal of personal items and I'm not going to give away all of the tribes items. There's always the possiblity for a miracle. I'm not quitting anyways. I said I almost want to quit (i meant this moment). I'm giving it until the end of August.

I am very unimpressed with all of the other released and in planning MMO's. Since losing money via SoE I pay close attention to any game that I pay for and play.

I've seen posts like this many times and will see more in the future. The 'I'm gonna quit because xxx' and the very tired 'I quit because xxx' seem out of place for a new game.

I'm kinda happy so far with Xyson; That being said, I eagerly await feature's and updates.

[Jadzia]

I totally aggree with everything he said. This is also my view on the things and i don't understand why developers can't get a proper character system ( after all the basics are there it only needs adjustments that you can't skill everything ). Yes people WILL be annoyed that they can't be good fighters AND good gatherers BUT thats what we want....roles.

Personally, I don't want roles at all. In a sandbox game which has no alts its not a good idea imo. If a dedicated player plays for years and he wants to be everything he should be able to...but it should take years. The main problem is that everything is too easy to max in the game....if lvl 90 scavenging took a year to get, same with fishing, combat skills etc players being self-sufficient wouldn't be a problem. And I would limit the recipes a crafter can get...like 1 armor set of a given lvl, 1 set of lvl 50, 1 set of lvl 60, 1 weapon for lvl 80 and so on. This way even high lvl crafters would be dependent of others, while they wouldn't be limited that what can they do in the game.

[Gandhi]

Personally, I don't want roles at all. In a sandbox game which has no alts its not a good idea imo. If a dedicated player plays for years and he wants to be everything he should be able to...but it should take years. The main problem is that everything is too easy to max in the game....if lvl 90 scavenging took a year to get, same with fishing, combat skills etc players being self-sufficient wouldn't be a problem. And I would limit the recipes a crafter can get...like 1 armor set of a given lvl, 1 set of lvl 50, 1 set of lvl 60, 1 weapon for lvl 80 and so on. This way even high lvl crafters would be dependent of others, while they wouldn't be limited that what can they do in the game.

I think that you only shoud be able either a good crafter (and even as a crafter you should only be able to produce only a few things with very high quality) or a good fighter. The possibility or every person being self-sufficent is the death of every sandbox-mmo.

[Book]

I think that you only shoud be able either a good crafter (and even as a crafter you should only be able to produce only a few things with very high quality) or a good fighter. The possibility or every person being self-sufficent is the death of every sandbox-mmo.

Wouldn't mind seeing the limitations imposed be rather malleable though, allowing people to make any type of character they can imagine or want to role-play, but within reason type of thing.

SWG system used to irk me a little as it didn't always allow the kind of variability that would be nice, if possible.

[MrDDT]

and also the wall argument 100% true. the capital city should ofc not be contested at any time because after all its a game and it is not fun to lose weeks of gameplay. The additonal slots could also mean losing weeks of gameplay but they are optional and with more local ressources ( yes not every region should be good for everything. If one region is bad for metal for example than thats how the game is ) you gain more power

Im confused here, can you explain this a bit more?

You believe what?

[Aiden]

I think that you only shoud be able either a good crafter (and even as a crafter you should only be able to produce only a few things with very high quality) or a good fighter. The possibility or every person being self-sufficent is the death of every sandbox-mmo.

I definitely agree...I hope there are some solid limitations eventually...it's a flippin' MMO...everyone being able to do everything will NEVER be a good thing for the community or the game...and will just ensure that all new players feel so far behind the curve that they think they'll never catch up.

[MrDDT]

I definitely agree...I hope there are some solid limitations eventually...it's a flippin' MMO...everyone being able to do everything will NEVER be a good thing for the community or the game...and will just ensure that all new players feel so far behind the curve that they think they'll never catch up.

I think everyone doing everything is fine IF they do not do it well. Meaning if you can make everything but its all crappy. Then I see no problem with that. If you can do everything at the top end or very close to top end. Then that's where problems are.

[afterclap]

I think everyone doing everything is fine IF they do not do it well. Meaning if you can make everything but its all crappy. Then I see no problem with that. If you can do everything at the top end or very close to top end. Then that's where problems are.

i agree, there should be a reward for those investing time on a smaller path when skilling his/her char to be able to be the best in that specific field. and as you said the more skill areas you try take on the more the overall quality of what you do/produce should suffer.

[MrDDT]

Personally, I don't want roles at all. In a sandbox game which has no alts its not a good idea imo. If a dedicated player plays for years and he wants to be everything he should be able to...but it should take years. The main problem is that everything is too easy to max in the game....if lvl 90 scavenging took a year to get, same with fishing, combat skills etc players being self-sufficient wouldn't be a problem. And I would limit the recipes a crafter can get...like 1 armor set of a given lvl, 1 set of lvl 50, 1 set of lvl 60, 1 weapon for lvl 80 and so on. This way even high lvl crafters would be dependent of others, while they wouldn't be limited that what can they do in the game.

If it took someone a year to get 90 scavenging I think most people would hate that, and not play. I would rather have fast leveling of skills but also have fast decay. Thus people couldnt keep skills high but they could do everything if the choose just would have to reskill it sometimes.

So say you were a homestead type of person. You could make the best QL stuff in the game, ALL of it. But you couldnt do it all at once. So you would have to say level up woodcrafting to 100, level up tool crafting to 100. Make your tools, and make a lot of high QL wood stuff. Then you would start training up, weaponcrafting, and scavenging. It doesnt take long maybe like 4 or 5 days of playing (which is really like 20 to 30 hours of played time) to get those to 100. Make your weapons using the good tools, good wood, good scavenged items and 100 weaponcrafting. Then you start work on bone armor crafting, and foraging.

You can keep doing this for all skills if you really wanted everything at the best QL, and not effect economy in a negative way.
Sure it would be harder for a solo homesteader to do it. But not impossible and I believe through trade, most homestead type of people would love this.

Now as a dedicated crafter of say, tools you would make a name for yourself, and even go further with it, getting ultra rare resources to make the best of the best stuff.
Also as a dedicated crafter in a tribe, you would have a purpose and the tribe would want you. Sure they could spend 10 to 20 hours training it up themselves but really it would be a lot more effective to have someone doing it all the time.

I also believe that if you want to be the jack of all trades but master of none you could use that in this system. Simple give skill a stack ranking. 1 to 10 would = .05 points. 10 to 20 = .2 points, 20 to 30 = .6 points. 30 to 50 = 1 point, 50 to 75 = 1.25 points, 75 to 90 = 1.5 points, 90 to 95 = 2 points, 95 to 99 = 3 points, 100 = 5 points.

This will allow people to have either many or all skills at low level, but few skills at high level. You can even do this with a soft cap with decay.

[Jadzia]

If it took someone a year to get 90 scavenging I think most people would hate that, and not play. I would rather have fast leveling of skills but also have fast decay. Thus people couldnt keep skills high but they could do everything if the choose just would have to reskill it sometimes.

I guess this depends on personal taste. I'd MUCH rather play a game where having a high level skill does mean something, than to play one where my skill levels play seesaw. If reaching max level took a lot of time that would mean that lower level stuffs have value too, and high level stuffs would be really valuable...right now everything which is lower than very high quality and lower than lvl 80 is useless. There is no reason to learn low level recipes apart of getting new items to grind, since no one will use them. It would just be easier to delete all the lower level recipes and give 1 item to grind endlessly till you reach lvl 80-90.



So say you were a homestead type of person. You could make the best QL stuff in the game, ALL of it. But you couldnt do it all at once. So you would have to say level up woodcrafting to 100, level up tool crafting to 100. Make your tools, and make a lot of high QL wood stuff. Then you would start training up, weaponcrafting, and scavenging. It doesnt take long maybe like 4 or 5 days of playing (which is really like 20 to 30 hours of played time) to get those to 100. Make your weapons using the good tools, good wood, good scavenged items and 100 weaponcrafting. Then you start work on bone armor crafting, and foraging.

What you describe here doesn't sound too good. If players can max their skills in some days then everyone will be just as self-sufficient as now. Tribes won't have any reason to trade, nothing will have value. 4-5 days to max a skill...thats awful imo, there won't be something like a 'dedicated' crafter if reaching max level is that easy.

[Dubanka]

jadzia, i agree with you in concept, where 'higher level skill means something'...however in practice this really just promotes macroing. Any system that promotes grind or tedium over player driven intereaction is vulnerable in that manner.

Personally, i think that specializing in skills (ie. like individual recipes, or classes of recipes) in conjunction with a fairly rapid, if inversely exponential, skill decay (ie. the higher the skill, the faster it decays, with decay slowing down rapidly as you got towards the middle of the curve) would do fit the compromise. Adding to this system the ability for players to unlock potentially unique recipes based upon certain their levels of craftsmanship...something like 95 broad ax + 85 super duper shovel + 100 long handle = Long Handled Bladed Shovel (uh weaponized spear/shovel hybrid that gives bonus to earth moving dig speek). witht he faster skill decay, it would be all but impossible for a non-dedicated (ACTIVE...not bot) crafter to achieve the higher end variants.

of course this would only work with a much higher level crafting specialization (discussed in a previous thread somewhere) than we currently have.

[Book]

jadzia, i agree with you in concept, where 'higher level skill means something'...however in practice this really just promotes macroing. Any system that promotes grind or tedium over player driven intereaction is vulnerable in that manner.

Personally, i think that specializing in skills (ie. like individual recipes, or classes of recipes) in conjunction with a fairly rapid, if inversely exponential, skill decay (ie. the higher the skill, the faster it decays, with decay slowing down rapidly as you got towards the middle of the curve) would do fit the compromise. Adding to this system the ability for players to unlock potentially unique recipes based upon certain their levels of craftsmanship...something like 95 broad ax + 85 super duper shovel + 100 long handle = Long Handled Bladed Shovel (uh weaponized spear/shovel hybrid that gives bonus to earth moving dig speek). witht he faster skill decay, it would be all but impossible for a non-dedicated (ACTIVE...not bot) crafter to achieve the higher end variants.

of course this would only work with a much higher level crafting specialization (discussed in a previous thread somewhere) than we currently have.

I like the inversely exponential skill decay, seems like it would allow an average level jack of all trades with spurts of excellence in whatever peaks their interest at the moment.

Would it invite macroing to maintain the high level though? I guess that's assuming skill decay would depend on doing a certain activity over another. Like in real life if someone quits practicing piano and spends all his time in the garage rebuilding a roadster, they'd lose their piano skill... but could gain it back.

Also, do I lose the recipes above level 60 (example) if my skill decays down to that? Or lose just the ability to use that recipe? Or none of the above?

Maybe that would encourage people to pick a direction and stick with it a while rather than level back and forth.

[xyberviri]

unfortunatly this is a post apoc non scifi game.

A whole layer of complexity and customization could be added if it was. Componets of weapons could be individually created and tuned while crafting to ensure there made correctly.

imagine making a SMG that required each of the major componets to be made and on final assembly you get a exploded view of the weapon and all the tweakable parts to adjust the power, rate of fire, reload speed, durabilty.

yeah but this game settings doesn't fit well with that suggestion.

[Dubanka]

unfortunatly this is a post apoc non scifi game.

A whole layer of complexity and customization could be added if it was. Componets of weapons could be individually created and tuned while crafting to ensure there made correctly.

imagine making a SMG that required each of the major componets to be made and on final assembly you get a exploded view of the weapon and all the tweakable parts to adjust the power, rate of fire, reload speed, durabilty.

yeah but this game settings doesn't fit well with that suggestion.


i disagree. weapons are made by part. if for instance you items had bonus slots where you could jsut experiment with adding things.

yes, to make foragers punch you need a craft knife and stone (been grinding that...very good sleep aid :p ). what if the recipe menu was craft knife, stone, [open unlabeled box]. you might stick something in there and it did nothing, you might put it in there and it do something extraordinary. Higher level recipes might have more than one box. YOu could put anything in the box. the recipe might eat it and do nothing, it may eat it and give no obvious effect but have a hidden one (ie faster swing, longer range), or it may create a completely new item. No one would know this but the crafter that 'discovered' it. and this could apply to any level of the item assemble list. adding a steel plate and foragers punch to your cloth menu? steal reinforced fabric. Adding rivets to your small wooden handle recipe? steel inlaid pomel. all kinds of cool easteregg stuff (infinite even) that could be added.

[MrDDT]

I guess this depends on personal taste. I'd MUCH rather play a game where having a high level skill does mean something, than to play one where my skill levels play seesaw. If reaching max level took a lot of time that would mean that lower level stuffs have value too, and high level stuffs would be really valuable...right now everything which is lower than very high quality and lower than lvl 80 is useless. There is no reason to learn low level recipes apart of getting new items to grind, since no one will use them. It would just be easier to delete all the lower level recipes and give 1 item to grind endlessly till you reach lvl 80-90.


What you describe here doesn't sound too good. If players can max their skills in some days then everyone will be just as self-sufficient as now. Tribes won't have any reason to trade, nothing will have value. 4-5 days to max a skill...thats awful imo, there won't be something like a 'dedicated' crafter if reaching max level is that easy.

I didnt say where higher skill didnt mean something, I just think it should be easier to get thus you remove most of the grind and add in other things for content instead of macro fest. You dont have to do the seesaw of levels if you dont want too, most wouldnt. It would only be the homesteader that doesnt want to trade much or wants to do EVERYTHING on their own.
I do not see in anyway how your way makes low QL items (or as you say low level stuff) have any value at all. It doesnt add to the value of those items at all. Also you talk about how lower level items are useless, well really ALL level items are useless in game so your point is moot. If you believe higher level items have worth then you would have to admit lower level ones do also currently. Again neither is being effected by your skill system. Because everyone would be everything at all times over time.

Tribes wont have any reason to trade in any system based on skills alone. Even if it took you years to get a skill up to max. Why would a tribe trade? It wouldnt be based on skills it would be based on resources. IE, maybe you tribe has access to lots of chalk, while another might have access to human bones. Skill isnt really a factor. Yes skill can be a factor in both cases a little but both cases wouldnt be a big deal.
I do not see how skill is the factor for trade in your system, nor mine. Resources is the key for trade not "skill" PLUS you are forgetting the fact that, lets say you learn and forget recipes, and recipes were rare. My way recipes would be even more rare AND so would someone having the correct recipe in a skill. While your way, people would just train everything over time and have all the recipes over time. Thus losing out on trade.

Your way has 0 promote on trade over mine. Yes yours has a sight trade overall over the current system, however, mine has a lot more over yours and the current.
To me a "dedicated" crafter has nothing to do with who grinded the most to get a skill, it has to do with who is making the items and is sticking it out with those skills. I know many games where you can train everything but takes time and those people dont make crap for the tribe, they just have all the skills. While others which only had 1 or 2 crafts work to ensure the tribe is kept with the items they need. Time training the skill shouldnt have any effect on who the "dedicated" crafter is, it should have to do with who is doing it.
With rapid skill decay, anyone doing something OTHER than their focus craft would likely not be making the items for the tribe as they would lose skill quickly doing other things.

[Book]

Not sure if making it faster to reach a higher skill really does anything to address a macro problem.

Never tried it but I'm guessing if you get a macro for a certain skill once, it remains good to go for the future?

Also guessing the idea is to make the high levels quicker so as to not warrant the time to write a macro... but it makes the macro faster as well. Question becomes does one macro overnight while they sleep, or during dinner? Not to mention I'd bet most people using these macros wouldn't know how to write one to save their lives. They probably get it from their friend who got it from someone else.

Shorter skill-up time means someone who has their macros ready for various skills can bounce around that much more easily and quicker.

Macro would also pretty much kill a rapid skill decay.

[Jadzia]

jadzia, i agree with you in concept, where 'higher level skill means something'...however in practice this really just promotes macroing. Any system that promotes grind or tedium over player driven intereaction is vulnerable in that manner.

Yeah...my dream game is a game where leveling is impossible to macro and its actually fun. Wish I knew how can that be accomplished...perhaps there is no way, skilling is repetitive by nature and even the funniest method gets boring if you have to do that for thousand times. But still, I haven't given up hope yet.


Tribes wont have any reason to trade in any system based on skills alone. Even if it took you years to get a skill up to max. Why would a tribe trade? It wouldnt be based on skills it would be based on resources. IE, maybe you tribe has access to lots of chalk, while another might have access to human bones. Skill isnt really a factor. Yes skill can be a factor in both cases a little but both cases wouldnt be a big deal.
High level skill (if its hard to reach) is a very valuable thing and great for trading. Your tribe may own a lots of chalk or bone, but if they haven't got a good crafter to make something out of it then they do need to trade for the crafted good.


While your way, people would just train everything over time and have all the recipes over time. Thus losing out on trade.
I guess you missed the part where I said people would be limited for 1 recipe (or one set in case of armor) per level.

If anyone can reach max level in 4-5 days then there will be no trading for crafted goods. In a game the really valuable stuffs are items not resources, so this is not good for the economy imo. In a good game resources are the base of the market, very needed, but the really expensive stuffs are high level items crafted from these resources. Thats why usually a high lvl craftman has more income then a high level gatherer does.

[MrDDT]

Not sure if making it faster to reach a higher skill really does anything to address a macro problem.

Never tried it but I'm guessing if you get a macro for a certain skill once, it remains good to go for the future?

Also guessing the idea is to make the high levels quicker so as to not warrant the time to write a macro... but it makes the macro faster as well. Question becomes does one macro overnight while they sleep, or during dinner? Not to mention I'd bet most people using these macros wouldn't know how to write one to save their lives. They probably get it from their friend who got it from someone else.

Shorter skill-up time means someone who has their macros ready for various skills can bounce around that much more easily and quicker.

Macro would also pretty much kill a rapid skill decay.

Macro does nothing for rapid skill decay. All it does is allows you to put time into something you normally wouldn't have the time to put into it.

Also by lowering the time it takes to get to max skill level you lessen the effect of a macro. Lets say, you have a goal to buy a plane. If the plane costs 1,000,000 dollars and you can get 100$ an hour, then it would take you 10,000. Which means as a player you would have to spend 10k hours playing, or someone could spend 10,000 hours macroing. Lets say you play 2 hours a day. It would take you 5000 days to get max level. While a macroer could play 20+ hours a day. Only taking 500 days to get max level. So they could be at max level for 4500 days. Now lets say it took, 10 hours to get to max level. You could get there in 5 days, while a macroer could get there in .5. Which means effectively they are not max level very long at all, so what if they could change their skills by the day. You would still have a max skill you can use in game for as long as you want. Macroing would then be really not needed and not worth the risk to get banned for something people can do easy on their own.

Skill decay kills people that want to macro btw. DFO had/has a major macroing problem. Mostly because of enforcement but also because there is no cap. So people feel they need all the skills, but to get them they would have to spend years playing.

Anyways I dont want to get into the macroing problem. It should be clear that faster skill gain removed the need for macros, as the risk vs reward isnt really there. Wouldnt you be more likely to risk your account for 1000s of hours saved? Or would it be equal when it was only saving you a few hours? For a few hours, people are likely not to risk macroing.


Yeah...my dream game is a game where leveling is impossible to macro and its actually fun. Wish I knew how can that be accomplished...perhaps there is no way, skilling is repetitive by nature and even the funniest method gets boring if you have to do that for thousand times. But still, I haven't given up hope yet.


High level skill (if its hard to reach) is a very valuable thing and great for trading. Your tribe may own a lots of chalk or bone, but if they haven't got a good crafter to make something out of it then they do need to trade for the crafted good.


I guess you missed the part where I said people would be limited for 1 recipe (or one set in case of armor) per level.

If anyone can reach max level in 4-5 days then there will be no trading for crafted goods. In a game the really valuable stuffs are items not resources, so this is not good for the economy imo. In a good game resources are the base of the market, very needed, but the really expensive stuffs are high level items crafted from these resources. Thats why usually a high lvl craftman has more income then a high level gatherer does.

Why would my tribe not have a good crafter? Im confused here. Is it because they lack the resources thus wouldnt have trained that skill?
I dont know what you mean by "per level" isnt there unlimited levels currently in game? So wouldnt that mean they could have them all over time? Please explain what you mean by "level" if its not what Im thinking.


Which I agree, but I dont see how allowing everyone to have all skills is limiting crafted goods. Can you explain how allowing people to have all skills at the same time is limiting crafted goods in anyway?

[Jadzia]

Why would my tribe not have a good crafter? Im confused here. Is it because they lack the resources thus wouldnt have trained that skill?
I dont know what you mean by "per level" isnt there unlimited levels currently in game? So wouldnt that mean they could have them all over time? Please explain what you mean by "level" if its not what Im thinking.


Which I agree, but I dont see how allowing everyone to have all skills is limiting crafted goods. Can you explain how allowing people to have all skills at the same time is limiting crafted goods in anyway?
If skilling up takes a lot of time there will be less high level crafters, and these crafters will be limited to 1 recipe per level...so its likely that your tribe won't have a high lvl one from every craft and recipe.

Per level I mean the crafting level....let's say there are 5 different lvl 80 leather armor sets. A player would only be able to learn 1 set out of this 5.

If it takes a year to max a skill you can bet that there will be less maxed crafters (let's leave out the problem of macroing now). Now if these crafters can only make 1 set of the highest level armor or weapon, then there will be a big demand for these crafters and for these goods.

[MrDDT]

If skilling up takes a lot of time there will be less high level crafters, and these crafters will be limited to 1 recipe per level...so its likely that your tribe won't have a high lvl one from every craft and recipe.

Per level I mean the crafting level....let's say there are 5 different lvl 80 leather armor sets. A player would only be able to learn 1 set out of this 5.

If it takes a year to max a skill you can bet that there will be less maxed crafters (let's leave out the problem of macroing now). Now if these crafters can only make 1 set of the highest level armor or weapon, then there will be a big demand for these crafters and for these goods.


First off, you can only have 1 recipe, and it takes a year to level up a skill you can toss solo players right out the window. Is this what your goal is? I will dispute the other stuff after I have an answer hear or the debate here.

[Jadzia]

First off, you can only have 1 recipe, and it takes a year to level up a skill you can toss solo players right out the window. Is this what your goal is? I will dispute the other stuff after I have an answer hear or the debate here.

Why ? They can have that 1 recipe and use that one and have everything they need, if they want another one for whatever reason they can trade for that.
I'm going offline now so can't reply to your questions for a while.

[MrDDT]

Why ? They can have that 1 recipe and use that one and have everything they need, if they want another one for whatever reason they can trade for that.
I'm going offline now so can't reply to your questions for a while.

Its not very solo if they have to trade now is it?

[Saorlan]

You are a complete moron if you think the devs don't read the reasons. You should get off this game it's completely obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

Figures, Animal Crackers. Starting shit on another thread...seriously. I know this is the only PVP you have but you don't have to derail every thread.

Get off my thread or get on topic.

By the way, you didn't have to read it. You didn't have to even open the thread. You knew what was inside. Are you now supporting the games current state or something? or is Kinslayer way off base here?

On topic

WOW seriously you need to take a chill pill Mr Gooey !

Ilmaculate ! Did I really send that PM ? The question has to asked though who the one that has more problems the one threatening someone that is disabled or someone that makes a clan in the image of a black guy with learning difficulties - answer - probably both ! :)

Any back on topic or Mr Gooey might get his nickers in more of a twist.

You sound like a whinny little teenage boy crying because someone posted in his thread....

[NorCalGooey]

A chill pill? Who's the one who sounds like they are a whining teenage boy? Every post you make makes you look like more of a troll with NOTHING relevant to say. Yes it is obvious to everyone here. No, nothing you have posted has been of any help to this thread. All pointless attacks at me because you are bored. What a life you live.

Is that it? I'm crying because someone posted in my thread? Or am I responding to a moron who starts shit AGAIN because he literally has nothing better to do.

You keep your pills, I'll keep my brain.

Again, obvious to everyone but you. Also obvious you have NO idea what chill even means if you think that last post was "needing to take a chill pill".

So you say "Anyway back on topic" but have yet to post one thing on topic. Now leave.

[China]

Why isn't this thread locked? Such spewing of hatred, name calling and just silly juvenile nastiness. It makes you all look bad and makes the forums look bad.

Surely you are all better than this -

[NorCalGooey]

I just want him off this thread. There has been some good discussion here. But he has brought nothing but content which has cause for locking this thread. I don't want that to happen because some people have been sharing reasons why the game could be better and even have given quality suggestions.

[Saorlan]

A chill pill? Who's the one who sounds like they are a whining teenage boy? Every post you make makes you look like more of a troll with NOTHING relevant to say. Yes it is obvious to everyone here. No, nothing you have posted has been of any help to this thread. All pointless attacks at me because you are bored. What a life you live.

Is that it? I'm crying because someone posted in my thread? Or am I responding to a moron who starts shit AGAIN because he literally has nothing better to do.

You keep your pills, I'll keep my brain.

Again, obvious to everyone but you. Also obvious you have NO idea what chill even means if you think that last post was "needing to take a chill pill".

So you say "Anyway back on topic" but have yet to post one thing on topic. Now leave.

Now dude you really need to chill. These random outburst of anger you are having ... well it just ain't right.

So anyway back on topic ...

[NorCalGooey]

Now dude you really need to chill. These random outburst of anger you are having ... well it just ain't right.

So anyway back on topic ...

There's no anger...look at my forum user name, you really think I am angry?. I'm more chill than you will ever be. I just don't see why you seem to have a hard on for derailing this thread though.

Hysterical telling someone to chill after intentionally provoking them through personal attacks. Whatever, I'm done with you.


Relating to topic...here is a post I was looking at on DFO forums. Doesn't this post look AWFULLY similar?




Any proposition to improve economy ends up in loud whining. Maybe except non-specific "AV, do something about it, you lazy bastards". The main argument is "we're here to PvP, not to waste time". Most playerbase don't even want auction house.

Any proposition to destroy economy meets loud applause. Faster crafting skill gains, better loot on mobs, making rare items easier to get etc.

Functioning economy must be based on scarcity. You buy something because you need it badly, and have no reliable way to get it for free by travelling to close mob spot. You sell something because you really need to buy something else.

Added after 22 minutes:

Another post from the DFO forums, from a newbie after discussing skill caps and such

So everyone can learn everything... thats boring. I was interested and was having fun in trial. But being the master of everything is not fun.


With that said, I sure hope skill decay in this game only allows us to be able to maintain one or two 100 level skills from each category, even if we play a few hours daily.

Added after 18 minutes:

and another post from DFO, relating to adding soft skill caps. Someone said everyone would quit if skill caps were created.

No I would stay. And I would welcome it as FUCKING HELL. This game needs some kind of restriction in terms of skill so badly that it is fucking ridiculous and this has been the situation since launch, too bad it's kind of too late now and most people have already quit. But better late than never?



So yeah, just look at how great DFO was and how it started failing.

[Aethaeryn]

Back on topic:

I was looking at joining AR and would have if the game kept my interest. I went the way Book did and tried the solo thing. . that kept the game interesting a bit longer. I think honestly you are just prolonging the "now what" question. I suppose it all depends how much they can finesse the game until you run out of things to do.

I still hope the game works out well. I can't play anything else and would love to come back. I just need a few more reasons.

[zeph]

Im not currently in game... I would prefer to call it inactive... Since in my mind I am free to return at anytime when I see individually feel and see the need to based of updates and content...

NorCalGooey... Some people are less sensitive to some issues or just more cold hearted with a sarcastic sense of busting your %^$%^ so to speak.... Im like that sometimes... The best you can do is pay no attention to it and move forward because I do see this a a great post were everyone is able to share thoughts, and hopefully developers can read them....

As a suggestion or forethought to the system... One thing that can help would probably be some kinds of logical realistic mixture with skills, decay, and items... Where, the higher a craft is or more specialized the crafter is in that field the better the item and less of chance of item breakage.... The higher the quality of crafted tool+quality base material will add a possible chance variable to make a higher quality tool.. Higher quality tools can make higher quality items where it would be skill+tool quality in which determine the out come chance variable on items which determine their (hidden value).... Hidden values on crafted tools and items will help add reason and fame to specific trade with crafters, and possible business they bring forth... This concept pretty much makes every crafter in a given field unique who can craft unique items... A person of lower skill or non chosen craft field, who probably if they have said recipe may attempt to craft an item but items will always be of lesser value with a higher rate or percent chance of breakage... When I say (hidden value) I mean i mean number base qualities that are there for game mechanic computations as needed but where and through use the crafter becomes well known for his/her work.... Or either just make any and all values known on a GUI pop up info panel... Items than can also possible be imped up to another level either through repair or adding value to the item through material bonuses used while imping by a person with the repair skill or craft skill in that field which it took to make said item, where their skills again can come into play as far to overall new item quality and value...

The Item, tools, weapons, and armors ect.. will there for always have a possible % chance of upgrade or downgrade based on skill with a % chance of breakage based on skill as well...

For example: A quality level 99 silver spear being used against an opponent who is using copper breast plated armor should have a very higher % chance to break in comparison as to someone using a quality level 99 iron spear... But say for whatever reasons that silver spear survived combat but is highly damaged but a high level crafter made this item and this item is taken to a lower level crafter for repair... This item should have a higher base % chance for breakage by that crafter or even a higher % chance to lower its quality level spiral downwards, since the tech or experience use by a previous crafter would supersede the new crafter who's repairing would be of lesser knowledge...

For example: A quality 20 tool made by a crafter of non profession who decided to use this tool to craft armor which is within their profession will always yield low quality armor which also has a higher base chance for failure or added base chance of lower quality armor values, and higher % chance of breakage...

For example: A quality 99 tool made by a crafter of chosen expertise field who decided to sell his tool to someone who is of another field who uses that tool to make armor with high quality materials will have a higher % chance of making stronger armor with a higher value on that item with a lesser % chance of breakage...

[NorCalGooey]

Thanks Zeph, I know to ignore the trolls but sometimes it's fun to put them in their place. Anyway.

A lot of this concept you are speaking of is already in place, however, it's not intense enough. Example, at 100 skill level, it's not like it's only a 10% chance to make supreme. It's much higher, and it shouldn't be. Maybe at 100, 20% chance to make supreme, 99, 15% chance, 98, 10% chance. 95, 2% chance would be a great system.

Repairing items is suppose to restore them, but degrade them a bit. So you couldn't repair to Pristine, but maybe to very good condition. Also, it would lower the durability from very high to medium or whatever. Eventually an item couldn't repair anymore and it would break.