Combat on hold...and give us REASONS...

[inhabit]

Guys

Anyone else agree or otherwise that by say the end of this week combat should be put on hold, and all efforts should be switched to giving players reasons to use the new combat system/craft certain items and build certain buildings.

Ive been trying to think of a reason to do things other than for the asthetic value and thought i had one...

use new combat system to go hunt animals...why?
so i can get bones...why?
cos i wanna be a bone crafter...why?
cos i believe bone absorbs more damage than other stuff ....why?
cos when i PvP i wanna be well protected for my fighting style ....why?
erm why? do i wanna PvP cos there is nothing i want to loot from the player except maybe saw blades but even then i dont really want them......

I think the above generally applies to to all professions at the moment there seems to be nothing apart from visual appearance of item/buildings as the only reason to make stuff. There has been little progress in this from what i can tell yeh item bonus stats have been added but seems to be placeholder text rather than actually workable ingame (see my other post in crafting) :)

Anyway after all that waffle lol anyone else agree to put combat on hold and now give us reasons and entertainment value.....

Sorry if this goes over stuff already said but I think its important and needs brought up until something is done :)

[unclean666]

I agree about putting it on hold but IMO they need to fix 3 things Quality of tools or quality itself thats not working,animals unstuck this time for good like they did with DC prob and scavenging.While the whole scaving thing dont bother me much its really hurting the new player base.

[Mactavendish]

I totally agree with you Inhabit.

I have been saying this same thing for some time now that we REALLY need a reason to do things.

Sure I love to build, but frankly that is not holding new players that join the game.

All of us have lots of experience with new players joining, play a few days and then quietly vanish.

We need a REASON to try and survive. Building a town with no possibility of it being invaded makes a town pointless.

[unclean666]

Sure new thing to or a REASON would be great but we see new people on every day and all we say over and over is oh thats broke oh you cant find those oh you need to re roll for that then because its broke.Im sure the there not thinking man wish i had a REASON there thinking F this nothing works.

[aliksteel]

Here is the thing, What you are asking is a wide and broad question in general. Don't get me wrong, A lot of us are asking the same thing. Why would I want to PvP, There is nothing I want to loot that I have not made or had made for me many times already.

I'll list the few things that "I think" that needs changing that will help promote not only PvP, But promote better game play over all.

Limited prime resources locations
*Limited ultra rare resources in only a few locations.

Limites on how many different crafting skill classes per player character

End fast death travel to totem
*Add death penalty

Add ultra rare recipes for armor and weapons



prime resources locations
With the way resources are right now, All you need is time and you can find everything that everyone else can. From the way I understand it, There are hidden harvesting nodes for scavenging. If it works as they said, If you drop your tribe totem close to one of the hidden harvesting nodes for scavenging. Then you just killed it for you and your tribe from being able to scaveng any resources that are associated with that node. Because they are trying to make us travel to find resources. Yes I think giving us reasons to travel is something that needs to be done, But what they are doing is killing a big reason to set of tribal totems.

So that's the problem as I see it, And here is what I think needs to be done. Flip it 180 degrees and make it when you set a totem close to a hidden harvesting nodes for scavenging. It makes it easier to be scavenged with a higher percentage rate of finding more. Also making it so that there is only a limited number of prime resources locations in the world. This will give us a reason to fight over land and/or trade with othere tribes. Also adding an limited ultra rare resource in only a few locations around the world. Making it where only a few tribes can control the ultra rare resource. Giving more reasons to trade, and/or PvP over the land and raiding trading party's coming and going from the tribal land that has the ultra rare resource.



Limit crafting skill classes per player character
Here is the problem, Right now giving time anyone can grind there way up to 100 in every class. I know that there is going to be some type of cap to keep people from doing everything. But if they do not limit how many crafting classes you can do from the first time you spawn in-game. This will not promote social gaming, Be it tribal grouping, trade, or pvp to loot what you need from others.

I think that when you spawn for the first time in-game you should only have the skill to make what ever crafting class you started with. I think we should be able to learn new skills in other crafting classes so that later if we wish to change what our main crafting is we can. Also by giving us a limit on how many types of crafting classes we can do, This should make us start looking around to see who we can kill and loot or trade to get what we need.


End fast travel to totem.
I know they are trying to keep greifing down, But I think fast travel kills game play, And as such, It kills PvP. I don't think that you should respawn right back on top of the place you died on. But I really don't think you should give people the easy way home after dieing, Or a way to go to the othere side of the world and decide I want to go home and find a way to kill themself real fast to go home in an blink of an eye. There needs to be a real death penalty, And being sent home is not it.

I think it would work if when you was killed, You would respawn in a random direction 100m away. This would give a runner like me away to try and stay away from the attacker so I'm not looted any more. But it would also keep people far enough away so they could not keep respawning and starting the fight seconds after they died. Giving the attcacker a chance to loot and get away or hunt them down to fight again.

I also think a a real death penalty would make PvP mean a lot more, Say something like your stats in str, agi, fort would all lose 5 points for 5 minutes, If killed/die again before that timer is done. You lose another 5 points in them again and now the timer is reset for 15 minutes, Die one more time before the timeer is over and you lose 5 more poins and timer is reset for 30 minutes. At this point every time you die before the timer is done you lose 5 more points and the timer restarts at 30 minutes. Harsh I know, But this would keep people from running back into the fray right after dieing, And even if they did they would lose more and more and become useless in the fight after so many times. This would only be a timed lose of stats, After the timer is done, Your stats go back to where they was.



ultra rare recipes
This would tie into the ultra rare resources.
This would be something that could only be found by scavenging, And only a few would be in the world. The recipe would be for one armor or weapon set that needed a ultra rare resource. Giving them higher stats and buff's making them the best in the game, At lest for the time being. I think this would give pvp players something to fight for.

[Larsa]

Guys

Anyone else agree or otherwise that by say the end of this week combat should be put on hold, and all efforts should be switched to giving players reasons to use the new combat system/craft certain items and build certain buildings.

...I hear you, Inhabit, and I have sympathies with your suggestion.

However, the developers are somewhat between a rock and a hard place here. Whatever they do will be wrong. Either people will say "Now we have a combat system but nothing to fight for" or they will say "Now we have our precious locations and rare resources but cannot fight over them".

Whatever the devs do will be wrong. Yes, I know, all that should have been in-game long before launch but things are as they are. It's just a fact (in my opinion at least) that we have a half-finished game. There's a lot of features that are missing, the devs need to do those one after the other and - again, in my opinion - the order isn't really that important.

It'll be a long time until the feature list is implemented for sure.

[NorCalGooey]

Good to see some of you guys are finally seeing the game the way those who have quit see it.

But really, combat needed to be better if they were going to work on anything combat related (like siege warfare and more complex PvE or EvP)




Oh and one problem for you aliksteel. Safe zones. How does that encourage PvP? Being closer to the totem increases chance of scavenging? This system only works without safe zones.

[aliksteel]

Good to see some of you guys are finally seeing the game the way those who have quit see it.

But really, combat needed to be better if they were going to work on anything combat related (like siege warfare and more complex PvE or EvP)

Sounds as if your happily thinking that more people may quit. That should help fix things.

[VeryWiiTee]

I'd agree crafting needs work.

Impose restrictions on when you can actually get inspired and which recipes you can get at your current level. Recipes that stands out from the more normal recipes (in that they use the new bonuses a lot more frequent than the old ones). Maybe customization.

I don't see the point of adding bonuses to buildings (be it comfort or actual buffs to crafting) yet. I would like a working comfort and general decay system and housing being introduced at the same time, so I'd like to see some work put into those three foremost of all. General decay alone should add more reasons to PvP as it would be a way of sustaining your weapons/armors without having to craft it.
@Aliksteel problem with restricting people to one crafting class is they had to dump the learning skill for now at least and a lot of solo players were whining. Though it would indeed be way better if you could learn it off other people.

This isn't really important just a bit of rant.
I wonder.. what if you switched the 'why pvp?'-thingy out with why pvp? to get stronger ie. getting better skills to gain more hit points and defeat your opponents more easily also the feat learning new tricks.
That was some of my first thoughts why I would pvp. The other seems a bit misplaced for me as I don't PvP to loot, but to keep people off my tribes turfs :P.

[Jadzia]

I agree, we need reason to do stuffs. Combat fix doesn't help if everything in the game is pointless.

We should die without food/drink, we should get frozen and die during the winter without proper clothes and shelter for the night. Buildings should add bonuses, like if you sleep on the ground during the summer your character wake up tired with low energy and low comfort. During the winter we should die if sleeping outside. Even rains and wet clothes should reduce comfort, running speed and strength. Wet clothes during the winter should end up in death after a short while, that would give reason to build bridges.

Buildings should add more advantages, like a better storage system, machines which can help with crafting, personal shops, oven to make better food, etc. We should be able to rent a house/bed for a friend or a stranger for a fee. Higher level furniture should add more bonuses.

[MrDDT]

Glad people are starting to get on board. Even the carebears are starting to see the problems with the system.

Here is just one of the lastest posts on this topic before.

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7374-Time-for-a-change?p=88099#post88099

This has been said 100s of times before, by me and many many others.

[Jadzia]

Glad people are starting to get on board. Even the carebears are starting to see the problems with the system.

Here is just one of the lastest posts on this topic before.

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/7374-Time-for-a-change?p=88099#post88099

This has been said 100s of times before, by me and many many others.

So called "carebears" have seen and said these problems months ago. Actually earlier than the PvP fans, but they insisted that the combat system needed to be fixed first. Too bad.

[MrDDT]

So called "carebears" have seen and said these problems months ago. Actually earlier than the PvP fans, but they insisted that the combat system needed to be fixed first. Too bad.

Where are you getting this spin? Should quote where I said "You guys will get bored and then understand why the PVPers said that strife needs to be put into the game" or will you just concede we were right and you were wrong?

PVPers have been complaining about this since before release. I even made a huge post about it with "Xsyon moving to carebear".

The carebears start posting about how PVPers just want to fight and force people on people, its not good for the game. Look at other games on how they all fail etc.

PVPers keep saying, you need strife, you need a reason to do stuff. Crafting for the sake of crafting or for lols or because it looks cool only does it for so long. People get bored. Now even the carebears are starting to see that. Whats so funny is you are now saying it was your idea that. You still dont see that it was these carebear ideas that cause this problem.

The carebears posting "Oh this is what we want, we love all the cool crafting colors and how we can build walls" blah blah. Without strife and reasons to do these things, you can see how that effects the game. Econ goes in the crapper, people get bored and quit, and just feel like "whats the point".

[VeryWiiTee]

There would be no reason for most of the crafting system, if combat wasn't working (as it hopefully does now)

Since most of the crafting is actually armor/weapons then;
What's the point of making armor/weapons if they don't do any difference. That is if we agree most of the crafting takes places to a) resupply tools or b) resupply you with gear/supply you with new and better gear.
- They do now, at least to some point, hench a good idea to start evolve the already revised crafting system now, rather than sooner where most of it would just have been for no reason.

One good reason why a combat system was needed first and foremost.

[Shrimps]

Sounds as if your happily thinking that more people may quit. That should help fix things.

^This^

100 times this^.

I know it wasn't what he was trying to imply but the more people that play and quit, the better the chance of the Dev's realizing that carebears don't know what they want and the better the chance that they'll fix it.

I myself have been a huge advocate of strife and balanced pvp warfare, myself, MrDDT, Dubanka, and others have all given suggestions and attempted to supply compromises that would make both sides happy. But one or two people alays cry about pvp like it's going to be quake online.

Honestly, how many crying carebears that cried for safe zone happy land are still here? one? maybe two?

Forum polls are badly worded and are a poor example of what people want. The day the word came out that the safe zones were permanent, you could almost hear all the people uninstalling the game, was a sad day.

[Jadzia]

Where are you getting this spin? Should quote where I said "You guys will get bored and then understand why the PVPers said that strife needs to be put into the game" or will you just concede we were right and you were wrong?

PVPers have been complaining about this since before release. I even made a huge post about it with "Xsyon moving to carebear".

The carebears start posting about how PVPers just want to fight and force people on people, its not good for the game. Look at other games on how they all fail etc.

PVPers keep saying, you need strife, you need a reason to do stuff. Crafting for the sake of crafting or for lols or because it looks cool only does it for so long. People get bored. Now even the carebears are starting to see that. Whats so funny is you are now saying it was your idea that. You still dont see that it was these carebear ideas that cause this problem.

The carebears posting "Oh this is what we want, we love all the cool crafting colors and how we can build walls" blah blah. Without strife and reasons to do these things, you can see how that effects the game. Econ goes in the crapper, people get bored and quit, and just feel like "whats the point".

This is my post from April :

The problem is that PvP can't create a need if th items themselves are useless. Why would you need an armor ? They do nothing. Why would you need a weapon? Your PO weapon is better than anything. You took over a land ? How nice. Why did you do that though ? To gain more absolutely pointless and useless buildings ? They are only for vanity even with PvP.
This is what I'm saying. With the current system (as in items have no use) PvP wouldn't have any use either, just as crafting has no use. Why would you fight over useless things ? Just because ?
The main problem has always been that items and buildings had no purpose. Not the lack of PvP, the lack of reason to make and build anything the game. PvP and fighting over things would solve nothing, since there is no reason to desire the goods others have.

This is not a carebear/PvP issue, this is a basic game design issue. Be a crafter or a PvPer, getting an item or building in whatever way is pointless (and thus boring) if it has no purpose.

[AndyI]

I'm inclined to agree with Jadzia, I'm fed up of this carebear this, carebear that nonsense. Many of us have said that we need a reason for things. some of us said the game would be better with more complexity. For example right now there is no need to eat and drink likewise no need for shelter. This is wrong and has been wrong since the game launched. there has to be a reason to do stuff. A combat system doesn't change this.

PVP is all well and good and I'm happy for safe zones to go but safe zones themselves don't break the game, the lack of meaningful loot does. This has always been the case and nothing much has changed in this regard. Now we have rarer items but they drop with weights that prohibit the travel the devs wanted to encourage. They give with one hand and take with the other leaving a game so imbalanced as to be pointless in it's current incarnation.

With combat now at a fairly good point I think they have to switch focus otherwise why will any of us play? We've been waiting weeks for tree planting which was almost complete etc. Seems a lot of stuff gets started and never completed and the core issues with the game just get moved to something else.

[MrDDT]

This is my post from April :

The main problem has always been that items and buildings had no purpose. Not the lack of PvP, the lack of reason to make and build anything the game. PvP and fighting over things would solve nothing, since there is no reason to desire the goods others have.

This is not a carebear/PvP issue, this is a basic game design issue. Be a crafter or a PvPer, getting an item or building in whatever way is pointless (and thus boring) if it has no purpose.

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/6653-Are-contested-totems-the-best-way-for-land-control

Lets just post the thread you posted in and see why you posted it.

Contested areas would be a HUGE reason to need a lot of items.
Walls, Armor, weapons, food.

With needing walls, armor, weapons and food. You would then need high QL tools to make those items. You would also need high QL resources, and high level of skills to make them.


Read the thread people. So then you can understand what PVPers have been saying for over 2 years now.

You say this isnt a PVP problem but it is. Its a HUGE reason to have PVP in this game.
Im not saying PVP is the ONLY answer here, Im saying PVPers have been saying this carebear problem of "Oh lets build it because it looks cool" and how you were going to get bored because of it. Now look at it.

I find it sooooo funny that Jadzia is trying to say she has been saying it, and she hasnt look back further Jadzia. PVPers and people like me have been saying this for years.


AndyI,

Whats a lack of meaningful loot to you? Right now armor has a great use, problem is no one cares to use it. If I could break into your town, kill your totem and take all your things. I tell you what, armor would be of great value and use then wouldnt it? It would stop you from dying in 3 hits, and be able to defend your town.
If there were contested rare resources to fight for, armor, weapons, tools, etc all start to have a reason.

Weapons, armor and tools ALL do have a great effect in the game, problem is there is no reason to make them. High skills in crafting is useless because who cares? Right now all the safezone carebears are bored because they built everything, done everything and nothing to fight for.

PVP would 100% add a need for high QL items. Causing a need for high QL items would then cause a need to have high skilled crafters.

Toss in rare contested regional resources, and POOF you have tons of reasons to do things.

Combat didnt need to be changed, DESYNC needed to be fixed. It was 100% unplayable. (Still is a problem).


These carebears crack me up. PVPers have been saying this for years and NOW they are trying to say they have been saying it haha. The whole time we have been telling them this is what will happen. PVPers predicted this. Its now come about and you guys cant even admit we have been saying just this. You guys have made your bed of carebear boredom.

[Jadzia]

You are so blindfolded DDT that it has no use to argue with you. Contested areas lol...why to contest if there is nothing to gain ? Why to take over a town if the buildings do absolutely nothing ? Why to desire someone else's property if it does nothing ?

If you can't imagine any other purpose for crafted items and buildings than PvP that only shows your limited experience and imagination. You don't understand that PvP is not the purpose...it can be a tool to reach your goal, but we need the goal first. Add the goal, and add several ways to reach that goal, PvP should be one of them.

Thats why we need to have items and buildings a good use...that can give a reason to fight over them. As long as they are useless only a fool or a very bored person would fight for it. When they actually do something and have a value add the option to fight for them for the ones who likes that.

[MrDDT]

You are so blindfolded DDT that it has no use to argue with you. Contested areas lol...why to contest if there is nothing to gain ? Why to take over a town if the buildings do absolutely nothing ? Why to desire someone else's property if it does nothing ?

If you can't imagine any other purpose for crafted items and buildings than PvP that only shows your limited experience and imagination. You don't understand that PvP is not the purpose...it can be a tool to reach your goal, but we need the goal first. Add the goal, and add several ways to reach that goal, PvP should be one of them.

Thats why we need to have items and buildings a good use...that can give a reason to fight over them. As long as they are useless only a fool or a very bored person would fight for it. When they actually do something and have a value add the option to fight for them for the ones who likes that.


Ok so look at it like this. Lets say they add in local resources that add 10x damage modifier to weapons. In the current system it would be worthless. Because why would you need it? Just like why do you need walls? Why do you need armor?

Now using mine, you add that into the game and POOF it fixes all the problems. You now have a need for walls, have a need for good armor, you have a need for good weapons, you have a need for high skilled crafters, you have a need for high QL resources (basic ones not this rare 10x damage one only).

Do you not understand this?

Contested areas add strife. Ive yet to see ANYTHING you have said that adds this. Care to give us any idea how to make value to items? Do you make red cloth do 10x more damage? Whats that going to do? No one will care because there is no reason to use higher damage stuff.

Im not saying PVP is the ONLY answer, Im saying strife adds reasons to use all these things. PVP is huge for strife. You could also add in things like major attacks by Mobs/NPCs.

[Saorlan]

My GOD people !!!

Absolutely nothing has changed here at all in the 2 months I have been away. People are only just realising there is little to no point in anything in the game at present, the safe zone arguement is still going on !!! But the best thing is Jadzia and MrDDT are STILL arguing in every other post - boring guys - agree to disagree !

What seems left is the few desperate people left picking over the bones of a once potentially good sandbox. I just popped back in here to see if anything had moved along. Sadly nothing has.

Oh well I will pop back in couple more months.

[Jadzia]

Now using mine, you add that into the game and POOF it fixes all the problems. You now have a need for walls, have a need for good armor, you have a need for good weapons, you have a need for high skilled crafters, you have a need for high QL resources (basic ones not this rare 10x damage one only).

No. It doesn't fix anything. Why do you need walls if you don't want to protect your stuffs ? Why would you protect something that has ZERO value and ZERO usage ? You want to destroy my tent ? Be my guest. It does NOTHING. I don't need it. I don't need a house either because it doesn't give comfort neither bonuses. Why would I bother protecting it ? On the other hand, why would YOU bother getting it ? It gives you NOTHING.

How to give value to stuffs ? Say you can build a gym where you can train your strength. A low level one trains it slowly, as you keep upgrading it (for higher cost of course) it trains it way faster. A high level gym is expensive and efficient. To lose a building like that would be a pain, and to gain it would be a nice reward.

You can use the same method for kitchens, herb laboratory to make potions, hair dressing saloons, whatever. Add animals or zombies who can attack your town (only when you are at home) and you have the need for walls and armors.

Add a building which can be used for fast travel in a limited way. Say if you have a portal you can teleport to a chosen location once a day. If you upgrade the portal you can use it twice a day, etc. To conquer a town with a high level portal (which should be very expensive to build) would be a great reward.

Add purpose for buildings and there you go, you have stuffs to fight over. Keep the fights optional and you will have the ones who enjoy building and crafting and the ones who enjoy fighting. Add PvE risk to the ones who hate PvP, add PvP risk to the ones who are bored with PvE.

And first of all, add currency. So badly needed to start a real economy.

[fatboy21007]

hey you both missed something here. Devs want people away from home and dont want home having the *spiffy* stuff, So id imagine Expansion totems can do this fill. seems you both forgot about that n expansion totems wont have safe zones and are attackable. Poof your both pleased. For those of us who dont really care for pvp we simply dont stick a expansion totem down and we can avoid it n enjoy are little safe zones. Id say inside this expansion city, it will be raidable-claimable-100% attackable So theirfor u can get everything in 1 go. Also what good is currency in this game? thier is no npcs to sell items to or buy them and not enough pop to get one going, no matter how you look at it..it just isnt going to happen. Tradeing items for items is the only workable currency.

basic resource have to be left alone, we arent making a df or anyother game here, basic resources must stay as New players need this as well as old, and Has 0 effect on the expansion totems. Taking that away you kill off most of the remaining population. but before any of this crap gets done, Features need finish-bugs fixed-Scavenging needs a major overhaul, Archtecture needs fixed up (walls not aligning, 923140823489 clicks to move an item). Animals need fixed up again as their scarse and Trees need to be fixed as, no where did it state u needed a tree for more to grow, this type of system allows asshole players to level loging and then screw over those folks in the areas, Cuz of this they can be waiting months for trees to appear in their areas again

Farming needs added also to help with tree issues and ofc carts (must have carts asap). Their is a VERY long list of stuff that needs finished ingame, Skill decay-revamp ofr stat decay. trade skills being reworked so you can master 2 skills n remaster over n loose the 2 u masterd. The list is very epic and very long. But PVP with will not hold the pop at all. They need pve things to do, ie raid zombie camps..hell mine a mountain, metal working, or w/e else you can think up to keep folks busy n givem something fun n new to do. PVP is fun, yes, But it gets boring very fast no matter how ya look at it. Because in games like these people will simply stop pvping or quit once their bored. (alot of the pvpers i know of in xsyon stoped playing due to bugs-lack of things to do and they ran outta things to pvp as the other side simply quit).

So safe yo say both your thinkings is off atm, When so much more needs done before anything u all wanna try and change can be heard n talked about. I want the game finished, bugs fixed and all features in. Im tierd of them stoping things to do other things a few people want. I WANT A FULLY WORKING FINISHED GAME THAT MEETS THE FEATURES LIST 100%. Once i get that then we can discuss expansion totems and how to makem interesting.

[Jadzia]

fatboy, read the OP and the first page. This thread is not about PvP/no-PvP or safe zones, its about the need of having purpose to make and own items/buildings. Without a reason to build and craft the game is pointless, and since items/buildings have no use or very little use right now the OP suggested the devs to focus on this problem.

[fatboy21007]

well how about we stop jumping ship on things that need done. Lets let the devs finish this game then get to these things. I want to play a finished game and i want more to do , but having all features done and bugs fixed is a asap thing to me n should be done first.

[MrDDT]

No. It doesn't fix anything. Why do you need walls if you don't want to protect your stuffs ? Why would you protect something that has ZERO value and ZERO usage ? You want to destroy my tent ? Be my guest. It does NOTHING. I don't need it. I don't need a house either because it doesn't give comfort neither bonuses. Why would I bother protecting it ? On the other hand, why would YOU bother getting it ? It gives you NOTHING.

How to give value to stuffs ? Say you can build a gym where you can train your strength. A low level one trains it slowly, as you keep upgrading it (for higher cost of course) it trains it way faster. A high level gym is expensive and efficient. To lose a building like that would be a pain, and to gain it would be a nice reward.

You can use the same method for kitchens, herb laboratory to make potions, hair dressing saloons, whatever. Add animals or zombies who can attack your town (only when you are at home) and you have the need for walls and armors.

Add a building which can be used for fast travel in a limited way. Say if you have a portal you can teleport to a chosen location once a day. If you upgrade the portal you can use it twice a day, etc. To conquer a town with a high level portal (which should be very expensive to build) would be a great reward.

Add purpose for buildings and there you go, you have stuffs to fight over. Keep the fights optional and you will have the ones who enjoy building and crafting and the ones who enjoy fighting. Add PvE risk to the ones who hate PvP, add PvP risk to the ones who are bored with PvE.

And first of all, add currency. So badly needed to start a real economy.

First off, if you allow people to take your totem from you people will still fight for it. Thats just first off.

Second is that people want access to control areas.

Third is that I said add in contested local rare resources. Its a lot easier to add that, and turn on PVP options than it is to go through all these other things you are talking about.


About this gym that trains STR. Why would I want a gym to train that when there is no point to having high STR? You are not making since. You need reasons to have high STR not reasons to have a building that gives you high STR.

We already have tons of things that add to STR, QL, Damage, etc. We dont have a reason to have high QL, HIGH str, HIGH skills.

Again you are missing the point. You can add in reasons to have a potion. So what? You have health potions, cures, faster exp etc. But why would anyone want them? There is no need to regen HP, no need to cure anything, and no need to gain faster exp or higher skills.

Now my way, you adding combat (AKA things to fight for, like rare resources that are local and give good bonuses to fighting etc) now people will want potions for healing faster (because they will be fighting a lot) they will need higher skills and stats because they will die too easy if they dont vs someone that does have high skills.

Yes lets add insta teleporters haha. Really?

Currency is NOT needed. Its already in game. You have dollars, and pennies. You also have many other types you can use.


Adding bonuses to items will do NOTHING to promote trade and stop people from being bored. You need STRIFE!!!
Ohhh look I have a +10000 damage weapon. Who cares, nothing to fight for.

[Jadzia]

Why would anyone want to control areas if it does nothing ? Fight over rare resources...why ? So that I could build a very rare, very special and very useless new building ? Or to make a new armor so that I can efficiently fight for absolutely useless buildings ?

If the stuffs have no use and thus no value fighting for them is pointless.

Str, potions, etc should be needed for PvE too, to get materials to build USEFUL buildings.

[fatboy21007]

technically if ya destroy buildings then u give 0 reason to build also ^^.

[MrDDT]

Why would anyone want to control areas if it does nothing ? Fight over rare resources...why ? So that I could build a very rare, very special and very useless new building ? Or to make a new armor so that I can efficiently fight for absolutely useless buildings ?

If the stuffs have no use and thus no value fighting for them is pointless.

Str, potions, etc should be needed for PvE too, to get materials to build USEFUL buildings.

I agree PVE, PVP, and other types of strife. Like nature. Will give peoples uses for many things.

I also believe that PVP is the easiest one of the all that to do. I also have been saying this for over a year. I also said you guys would get bored in your crafting world and the carebears were calling us just PVP fools. Now it seems you guys are having to deal with what problems you have caused, and now I guess you wont even admit that the carebears caused this problem.

Just fighting over land, will cause people to want to protect it, wanting to protect it will cause people to need items. Even if that land is of not much use or even useless. There is a need to want to protect it and want to defend it. So even on that basic level it would cause the need of these items.

Ive also been saying that you need more than just adding in PVP, you need to give items bonuses that have an effect.

[Dubanka]

how many times do we have to rehash this conversation.

all sides agree there needs to be the quintessential raison d'etre.

however one side believes that conflict should be instrumental in determining use, value, and rarity of items...it's not the whole pie, but it is a good 20-30% of it.

the other side believes that no one should have to be involved in any type of conflict, unless that want to, and thus believe that conflict should be a cupcake sitting off to the side, while the pie is made up of non-conflict related needs and desires.

Group A: Conflict is in the pie. Group B: it's not.

Jordi has said that he wants one pie where group A and B can coexist...which is problematic because group A and B want different games.

I'm in group A (duh)
- I want walls to do something...have purpose...like protect me. Protect my stuff...but i don't need them because my home is safe because of some invisible hand of protection.
- I'd love for building to have purpose, hold more stuff, improve quality of crafting, reduce regen time, etc...but why do i need stuff?
- I'd love armor and weapons to have meaning...for armor and weapon smiths to be revered and be able to command extraordinary prices for their wares...but do i care if i don't actually need to fight for anything
- I could go on and on and on and on (i have in the past).

/shrug this is rapidly becoming one of those what could have been if only products.

Devs need to figure out what they want their baby to be when it grows up, and quickly...and no, it can't be a firefighter, a jet pilot and a neurosurgeon at the same time.

[aliksteel]

That would be cool to see, A firefighter piloting a jet, And at the same time he is preforming neurosurgery.

That my friends, Would be Da Man!!!

[fatboy21007]

i got a solution! its shity, down rite sucks. But noside can complain! 2 servers. 1 for pve carebears 2nd for pvp epeens. Poof u can setup up both servers to suit the players their better.yes things may take a tad long but in the long run when things are fixed and more is added this could take off or it could just die off as its always done. Ethier way having 2 servers is win for them all. and dont say blah blah we only need one. Group A and B dont want o coexist. spliting them up to give both sides what they want will only help the game grow

. if u try n force a peace between the 2 in this type of game, just wont happen 1 side will leave. with 2 servers some may leave but in the long run more will stay n hell more may return (depending on whats added) Personally the 2 server idea i heard at launch should have happend. None of these damn issues would have came up (debates) then pvp wouldnt have safezones n everything attackable n get their way while pve get safe zones and all that fun stuff. Dont give me this we dont need to split the pop because their isnt 1 crap ethier. This type of game demands 2 servers, its the only way both sides will stick around for the long haul. Hell setup a pvp fourm section and pve. Im aware their is very few devs, but atleast they will get good feedback and dont have to here people bickering. this is WIN. And if you cant even agree with this then you will never agree on anything! Now if ull excuse me ima go pray to the tree gods for sum trees and hope they are dont hating me.

[Dubanka]

i got a solution! its shity, down rite sucks. But noside can complain! 2 servers. 1 for pve carebears 2nd for pvp epeens. Poof u can setup up both servers to suit the players their better.yes things may take a tad long but in the long run when things are fixed and more is added this could take off or it could just die off as its always done. Ethier way having 2 servers is win for them all. and dont say blah blah we only need one. Group A and B dont want o coexist. spliting them up to give both sides what they want will only help the game grow

. if u try n force a peace between the 2 in this type of game, just wont happen 1 side will leave. with 2 servers some may leave but in the long run more will stay n hell more may return (depending on whats added) Personally the 2 server idea i heard at launch should have happend. None of these damn issues would have came up (debates) then pvp wouldnt have safezones n everything attackable n get their way while pve get safe zones and all that fun stuff. Dont give me this we dont need to split the pop because their isnt 1 crap ethier. This type of game demands 2 servers, its the only way both sides will stick around for the long haul. Hell setup a pvp fourm section and pve. Im aware their is very few devs, but atleast they will get good feedback and dont have to here people bickering. this is WIN. And if you cant even agree with this then you will never agree on anything! Now if ull excuse me ima go pray to the tree gods for sum trees and hope they are dont hating me.

it might have worked on release, but with the pop the way it is...wouldnt work now.
Honestly, at this point, they'd be better off trying to channel their inner carebear and uphold the needs and wants of jadzia and co...mud hut sim 4tw, pvp as afterthough. most of the pvprs have left the building and even ddt has to know that his situation is kinda tenuous.

build the game for the careabears, so at least it will serve as a warning to other devs who ponder which path to choose...and we can just point at the smoking crater that was xsyon.

[Jadzia]

I agree fatboy, this kind of game requires 2 type of servers. But this thread is not about PvP/-non-PvP...its about giving purpose to items and buildings. That is required for every type of gameplay so why DDT turns this thread into a PvP-antiPvP one is beyond me.

Let's get back ontopic ? I suggest everyone to read the OP.

[Dubanka]

I agree fatboy, this kind of game requires 2 type of servers. But this thread is not about PvP/-non-PvP...its about giving purpose to items and buildings. That is required for every type of gameplay so why DDT turns this thread into a PvP-antiPvP one is beyond me.

Let's get back ontopic ? I suggest everyone to read the OP.

wow, you really cant see the forest through the trees.

what defines purpose for items and building? Use? Necessity? Scarcity? Utility?

how do you attribute value to weapons, armor, defensive architecture structures without a purposeful pvp system?

why do you need to even have pvp if you don't need to pvp to actually do anything? You don't need to control territory to harvest resources (so why pvp, why make armor and weapons to pvp, why fortifiy your towns so you can have a reasonable safe hovel to base your actions out of? 80% of the crafting in this game is tied to some type purpose that is defined by player conflict. weapons, armor, leather, tailor, even grass, a lot of architecture, most of the middle man skills...they all tie into a PURPOSE of being used for player conflict...ie. making items whose purpose is directly related to combat.

BUT...a player is not forced to fight for anything, so a player doesnt really need any that stuff...consequently, the value of 80% of the crafting line is negligible because THERE IS NO POINT TO MAKING OR USING IT.

so yeah, sorry, the situation surround player conflict is directly related to the game having a point and a purpose...and well, making it a game and not a sim.

[MrDDT]

I agree fatboy, this kind of game requires 2 type of servers. But this thread is not about PvP/-non-PvP...its about giving purpose to items and buildings. That is required for every type of gameplay so why DDT turns this thread into a PvP-antiPvP one is beyond me.

Let's get back ontopic ? I suggest everyone to read the OP.

I am posting about the topic, because I believe PVP will make things useful. Ive already shown that, explained that and proven that. As have others.
Is PVP the only way to do this? No of course not. You can have NPC raiding towns, you can make it so that weather effects players more, you can make it so that when you are outside your walls you are being attacked a lot more by HARDER monsters, you can make it so that you have to explore to find useful powerful items.

Many ways you can do it. However, PVPers have been saying this since the start of the game. Carebears were telling us, no no no they wont get bored this is what they want. Now you see what you have done, but you wont take the fault for it. So you STILL wont listen to the voices of reason. We saw this coming, we predicted this.


wow, you really cant see the forest through the trees.

what defines purpose for items and building? Use? Necessity? Scarcity? Utility?

how do you attribute value to weapons, armor, defensive architecture structures without a purposeful pvp system?

why do you need to even have pvp if you don't need to pvp to actually do anything? You don't need to control territory to harvest resources (so why pvp, why make armor and weapons to pvp, why fortifiy your towns so you can have a reasonable safe hovel to base your actions out of? 80% of the crafting in this game is tied to some type purpose that is defined by player conflict. weapons, armor, leather, tailor, even grass, a lot of architecture, most of the middle man skills...they all tie into a PURPOSE of being used for player conflict...ie. making items whose purpose is directly related to combat.

BUT...a player is not forced to fight for anything, so a player doesnt really need any that stuff...consequently, the value of 80% of the crafting line is negligible because THERE IS NO POINT TO MAKING OR USING IT.

so yeah, sorry, the situation surround player conflict is directly related to the game having a point and a purpose...and well, making it a game and not a sim.


Dub, I agree that PVP will make all those things have purpose and I agree it is needed. However, I think there are many ways to go about it. I want what Jordi said. Contested RARE resources that people can fight for. Allow in those areas totems to be taken and fought over. Some system should be put into place for it.

This game is a sim, thats what the carebears did to it with all their crying about safe zones, anti pvp crap. This game needs strife. I can think of 100s of ways to do that.

[Jadzia]

wow, you really cant see the forest through the trees.

what defines purpose for items and building? Use? Necessity? Scarcity? Utility?

how do you attribute value to weapons, armor, defensive architecture structures without a purposeful pvp system?

why do you need to even have pvp if you don't need to pvp to actually do anything? You don't need to control territory to harvest resources (so why pvp, why make armor and weapons to pvp, why fortifiy your towns so you can have a reasonable safe hovel to base your actions out of? 80% of the crafting in this game is tied to some type purpose that is defined by player conflict. weapons, armor, leather, tailor, even grass, a lot of architecture, most of the middle man skills...they all tie into a PURPOSE of being used for player conflict...ie. making items whose purpose is directly related to combat.

BUT...a player is not forced to fight for anything, so a player doesnt really need any that stuff...consequently, the value of 80% of the crafting line is negligible because THERE IS NO POINT TO MAKING OR USING IT.

so yeah, sorry, the situation surround player conflict is directly related to the game having a point and a purpose...and well, making it a game and not a sim.
So you are saying armors and weapons will have purpose if you can use them to fight over absolutely useless buildings and towns ? Why would anyone bother to fight for something that does nothing apart of looking nice ?

A sim is a good game imo. But Xsyon is not a sim, since in a sim game everything has use and purpose. That what we need here too.

DDT, no one ever asked for a game where they can craft and build stuffs which are absolutely useless. Read the OP, he says he would like to PvP but why would he bother if the stuffs he can get do nothing.

If there was NPC town raids, I wouldn't bother to protect my stuffs....since they are worthless. The simple fact that you have to fight for something doesn't give value for it. Add value first, then it will give meaning to the fight, and will give meaning to crafting/building.

[Dubanka]

Add value first
what defines value?
- Rarity?
- Difficulty?
- Risk?
- Utility?
- Demand?
- Specialization?

you can't just 'make something valuable'. Since value is a combination of the elements above (and probably a bunch that i missed). the more elements you attribute to something the more valuable it is. THos with few elements will have little value. Without the right combination of elements, will have little value.
rare+risk+utility=VALUE!
rare+rish <> VALUE
demand+rare=value
demand+rare+risk=VALUE
etc. etc. etc.

you can't just 'add value'...since value is a summation of a number of different components.

[Jadzia]

what defines value?
- Rarity?
- Difficulty?
- Risk?
- Utility?
- Demand?
- Specialization?

you can't just 'make something valuable'. Since value is a combination of the elements above (and probably a bunch that i missed). the more elements you attribute to something the more valuable it is. THos with few elements will have little value. Without the right combination of elements, will have little value.
rare+risk+utility=VALUE!
rare+rish <> VALUE
demand+rare=value
demand+rare+risk=VALUE
etc. etc. etc.

you can't just 'add value'...since value is a summation of a number of different components.

Usage (perhaps thats what you call utility). Rarity, risk, difficulty etc can increase value...but at first the item/building HAS to have some usage. It has to give something like comfort, bonus, teleport opportunity, crafting station...something. Demand adds value, but people demand goods which are actually useful.

Pure vanity items may have value as well, if they are very rare and looks really good. But Xsyon has nothing like that.

[Dubanka]

yes, useage = utility.

but im just saying for it to be valuable it needs to be more than useful.
i mean a hammer is useful. but it has no real value, since they are easy to make from common components, easily obtained through trade, present no risk in acquiring, etc. All it has is utility.

In fact i would go so far as to say that just about everything in xsyon has some level of utility. weaposn kill stuff. shovels dig. axes chop. armor protects. clothes provide some vanity value for the fashion conscious among us. hunger and thirst have no value. but just about every crafteable item has utility.

The problem is, utility is where it stops. The items exist for the sake of existing. I got a hammer. ok i can hammer and make this, and this does that, but now what. Once you get beyond the initial level or two of utility...you gather, you refine, you create....and you do what with it?

ideally you intersperse risk, and difficulty, and rarity in the in the gather and creation stage, that adds value to the components. it makes the act of gather or creating valuable...Providing the end item has value.

the value equation really culminates with the value of existence. Does existence have risk? difficulty? Utility (a purpose)? are my skills in demand? Am I unique? II know i'm not sure sharpest tool in the shed, but i do not see how you make existence in a game interesting if you deprive that existence of risk and difficulty. It's like quoting Mr. Smith in the Matrix talking about how their initial human sim failed because they made it a virtual nirvana...only when they added strife and chaos did it actually thrive.

anyway *shrug* like i said, they should jsut remove the pvp component completely and go full on careabear so they can at least work on focusing their gameplay model. Right now they are trying to shoot at too many targets, and they are missing all of them. Go for the carebear sim so we can have a lol lesson learned moment in the future :/

[NorCalGooey]

how many times do we have to rehash this conversation.

all sides agree there needs to be the quintessential raison d'etre.

however one side believes that conflict should be instrumental in determining use, value, and rarity of items...it's not the whole pie, but it is a good 20-30% of it.

the other side believes that no one should have to be involved in any type of conflict, unless that want to, and thus believe that conflict should be a cupcake sitting off to the side, while the pie is made up of non-conflict related needs and desires.

Group A: Conflict is in the pie. Group B: it's not.

Jordi has said that he wants one pie where group A and B can coexist...which is problematic because group A and B want different games.

I'm in group A (duh)
- I want walls to do something...have purpose...like protect me. Protect my stuff...but i don't need them because my home is safe because of some invisible hand of protection.
- I'd love for building to have purpose, hold more stuff, improve quality of crafting, reduce regen time, etc...but why do i need stuff?
- I'd love armor and weapons to have meaning...for armor and weapon smiths to be revered and be able to command extraordinary prices for their wares...but do i care if i don't actually need to fight for anything
- I could go on and on and on and on (i have in the past).

/shrug this is rapidly becoming one of those what could have been if only products.

Devs need to figure out what they want their baby to be when it grows up, and quickly...and no, it can't be a firefighter, a jet pilot and a neurosurgeon at the same time.

My best guess is that they will bring in the PvP with the end of "prelude", once the original feature list is finished (Jordi said original feature list would be in for April 15th 2010 launch date, and still theres a huge amount of features on that list missing. STILL, 15 months later), along with their first attempt at advertising for the game which is no longer in its "prelude" state.

Seriously though, why do walls exist in this game? :D

Added after 7 minutes:


what defines value?
- Rarity?
- Difficulty?
- Risk?
- Utility?
- Demand?
- Specialization?

you can't just 'make something valuable'. Since value is a combination of the elements above (and probably a bunch that i missed). the more elements you attribute to something the more valuable it is. THos with few elements will have little value. Without the right combination of elements, will have little value.
rare+risk+utility=VALUE!
rare+rish <> VALUE
demand+rare=value
demand+rare+risk=VALUE
etc. etc. etc.

you can't just 'add value'...since value is a summation of a number of different components.

value is simple.

usefulness + obtain-ability = value

usefulness = how many reasons to use and how much reason to use

obtain-ability = how long, how hard, etc it is to obtain item

[MrDDT]

So you are saying armors and weapons will have purpose if you can use them to fight over absolutely useless buildings and towns ? Why would anyone bother to fight for something that does nothing apart of looking nice ?

A sim is a good game imo. But Xsyon is not a sim, since in a sim game everything has use and purpose. That what we need here too.

DDT, no one ever asked for a game where they can craft and build stuffs which are absolutely useless. Read the OP, he says he would like to PvP but why would he bother if the stuffs he can get do nothing.

If there was NPC town raids, I wouldn't bother to protect my stuffs....since they are worthless. The simple fact that you have to fight for something doesn't give value for it. Add value first, then it will give meaning to the fight, and will give meaning to crafting/building.


What makes something worthless vs not worthless?
Answer that please. Because according to you, nothing will ever have worth or value.
Right now walls have no value, but add in PVP over a totem and POOF walls have a huge value to stop people. Same with NPC attacking. Walls will have a huge value if they can stave off an attack from NPCs or players.

You say you wouldnt protect your town? Well what would make you protect it? Lets say they make it so your town gives 2000x healing speed. Is it worth to protect then? Well why would you need healing speed? Seems to me you dont need anything.
You have said this before in game also.

You are right now saying that people that play WOW dont need armor, you know why? Because what will it do? To get better armor? For what? There is no reason to play at all in WOW because why get better armor or get the best armor?


People make goals, and clearly you have no goals. If you did have a goal (other than theory like "I would like to have fun") you would understand that you need items to do it. IE. Say you want to make the best bone armor. Well you would need the best tools, high skill and high resources.
Well that takes the best base resources for tools, high skill and other best tools.
Plus you would need other things like to eat to get the best chance so you would need food, you would need to train in a fairly safe area (or at least unmolested to get high skill), you will also need to wear your tribal colors. So would the tool maker, and the resource gather.

Your problem is you have no goals. Your goals are in theory.

Problem with Xsyon is they create no strife. No one is worried about death, or hunger, or fear of getting things taken. So they are building a sim. The only goals that work right now are "Looks cool" type of goals. No goals of being the best trader, well known murder, or being a hunter of very foul beasts that are very hard.
They only have 2 things. Be the best crafter (for no other reason but to be the best), to be the best builder for no other reason but that it would look cool or be cool to do, and build a very cool town. No other types.


Items right now have a huge value IF you add in other things. Like what if bears were 10x harder and they attacked you all the time in your towns. Well you would need walls, and outside your walls you would need good armor and weapons.

See how value changed with 1 simple thing?


Usage (perhaps thats what you call utility). Rarity, risk, difficulty etc can increase value...but at first the item/building HAS to have some usage. It has to give something like comfort, bonus, teleport opportunity, crafting station...something. Demand adds value, but people demand goods which are actually useful.

Pure vanity items may have value as well, if they are very rare and looks really good. But Xsyon has nothing like that.

What are you talking about? Xsyon has TONS of pure vanity items.
Look at all the cloth items. Look at all the different types of leather armors. They have many things like posts and stuff too. No idea what you are talking about with that.

Items have uses. Problem is there is nothing past the use. Hammer, is used for crafting stuff. But the stuff you craft doesnt give you much of a bonus nor is there any strife.

[Shrimps]

It's sad really when a thread is 3/4 full of the same two people bilndly screaming the same things at each other that they've been screaming for the past what, like year and a half?

This thread has turned into the same argument that's been going on since day 1.

PVE carebears won, game died, time to move to a greener pasture I suppose.

I'm just sorry they tried to make ATITD 2.0, could've been a much better game.

[AndyI]

Ok so look at it like this. Lets say they add in local resources that add 10x damage modifier to weapons. In the current system it would be worthless. Because why would you need it? Just like why do you need walls? Why do you need armor?


You've proved my point. Those things are not yet in game and until they are PVP is rather pointless. You argue for the sake of arguing because you think you're always right and everyone else is always wrong. Pointless.

It really is as simple as we need more rare items, we need contested areas and we need balance in what we already have. Just as in the thread about scavenging, you argued based upon what you see works and doesn't work from a viewpoint of having 100 in various skills. You do not argue from a balanced position. I am completely sick and tired of this pathetic childish argument about PVP'rs and carebears when the issues are fundamentally nothing to do with that and never have been. Lack of features, balance and reason to do anything are and always have been the issues, you just choose to spin it to your viewpoint.

Despite hours of scavenging on level 96, still no blades whatsoever. If someone on a high level can't find them then there's no point levelling. If we had the ability to repair, it wouldn't be an issue. So now I rarely use my saws. Until these gaps in the game are filled in and balance adjusted, the game has little or no meaning and before you start accusing me of having no imagination, I design software all the time and have plenty of imagination. Walls, we only recently got gates so until then were meaningless. Why fish or forage, you can do too much with no food or drink so as any effect to be meaningless. Why explore and travel to other zones to scavenge when we can't carry the stuff back, yet.

The devs decided not to open up the new land yet most scrap heaps have inactive totems on them or next to them because totem decay is still not resolved. Why can't we just have inactive totems have no effect after a certain time period and so you have a two step removal process.

Why fight over a totem, what do I gain? How do I defend a totem if I'm on holiday? Lots of things that have yet to even be considered. You basically want a game that caters for those that are logged in for excessive amounts of hours.

Bottom line, what's missing? reason.

Give me a rare resource node and I'll fight over it. Howver that still isn't about fighting over a totem because you wouldn't stick a totem near a rare node because then it will affect scav :)
Then were talking about contested totems. when will they be in?
The only gain to attacking a totem is access to the bins. What do they currently contain that makes it worthwhile? nothing. Saw blades maybe...

We are still a ways off from the game having any reason to PVP and yet still you bleat on about the same old arguments. I nor anyone else has any control over the features or timelines that the devs care to pursue.

So what do we gain with removal of safe zones? absolutely nothing.
What do we gain with more PVP features? absolutely nothing.

Features still in dev need to be completed first. We would not be fighting over totems anyway, totems are meaningless in terms of PVP. We'll be fighting over rare resources which would be contested totems. People would have to travel to them and thus be open to attack. Not enough common sense is being applied to this discussion and until it is and some thought is also given to new players as well, this will just be people arguing about what they want from thier perspective given thier current skills.

So do I agree with not expanding the land mass? no, add the rare resource nodes and a reason to use them such as boosts to everything made that make a substantial difference and this will bring the community together more than having a smaller land mass so were closer to each other. Or add the rare resource nodes to the existing land mass too. That's a reason to PVP. There are many decisions I disagree with in the direction of the game but I do not boil it down to a simplistic, PVP vs Carebear view because it isn't, it is a combination of factors that have either no balance or reason. The vociferous minority will always have thier opinions and I'm fine with that and only hope the devs are being much more reasoned than many forum posters are.

[Jadzia]

There is no reason to play at all in WOW because why get better armor or get the best armor?
This is exactly why I don't play WoW or other themepark games. I don't see the point in playing a game to get better armor only to be able to get even better armor. Lol. More credit to the ones who still can enjoy it.
But at least armors do make a huge difference in WoW.


Problem with Xsyon is they create no strife. No one is worried about death, or hunger, or fear of getting things taken. So they are building a sim. The only goals that work right now are "Looks cool" type of goals. No goals of being the best trader, well known murder, or being a hunter of very foul beasts that are very hard.
They only have 2 things. Be the best crafter (for no other reason but to be the best), to be the best builder for no other reason but that it would look cool or be cool to do, and build a very cool town. No other types.


Items right now have a huge value IF you add in other things. Like what if bears were 10x harder and they attacked you all the time in your towns. Well you would need walls, and outside your walls you would need good armor and weapons.

This is not the first time when I get the feeling that you can't read or can't understand what you read. I really don't mean this as an insult, simply just an observation. That you wrote here is the same thing that I'm saying...so why are you arguing then ? There is no reason to build apart of that towns look cool, no reason to craft apart of being the best crafter, I said add monsters that attack towns and there you go you will need walls...but at first the buildings should have some usage to be worth to be protected.



What are you talking about? Xsyon has TONS of pure vanity items.
Look at all the cloth items. Look at all the different types of leather armors. They have many things like posts and stuff too. No idea what you are talking about with that.
Again, the same problem. You don't read what I wrote or don't understand it. I didn't say Xsyon has no vanity items...I said it has no vanity items which are rare and looks really good. Actually nothing looks really good in Xsyon...especially on female characters. Every armor look ugly. No reason to desire it.



Items have uses. Problem is there is nothing past the use. Hammer, is used for crafting stuff. But the stuff you craft doesnt give you much of a bonus nor is there any strife.
I'm glad you agree with me. This is what I keep saying in this whole thread, that crafted items and buildings have no use, they don't give bonuses, thus crafting them is pointless.


Seems to me you dont need anything. You have said this before in game also.
This made me wonder. I've never talked to you in game, I never talk on global chat. So when and where did I say this in game ? I have a feeling that you mistake me with someone else.

[MrDDT]

You've proved my point. Those things are not yet in game and until they are PVP is rather pointless. You argue for the sake of arguing because you think you're always right and everyone else is always wrong. Pointless.

It really is as simple as we need more rare items, we need contested areas and we need balance in what we already have. Just as in the thread about scavenging, you argued based upon what you see works and doesn't work from a viewpoint of having 100 in various skills. You do not argue from a balanced position. I am completely sick and tired of this pathetic childish argument about PVP'rs and carebears when the issues are fundamentally nothing to do with that and never have been. Lack of features, balance and reason to do anything are and always have been the issues, you just choose to spin it to your viewpoint.

Despite hours of scavenging on level 96, still no blades whatsoever. If someone on a high level can't find them then there's no point levelling. If we had the ability to repair, it wouldn't be an issue. So now I rarely use my saws. Until these gaps in the game are filled in and balance adjusted, the game has little or no meaning and before you start accusing me of having no imagination, I design software all the time and have plenty of imagination. Walls, we only recently got gates so until then were meaningless. Why fish or forage, you can do too much with no food or drink so as any effect to be meaningless. Why explore and travel to other zones to scavenge when we can't carry the stuff back, yet.

The devs decided not to open up the new land yet most scrap heaps have inactive totems on them or next to them because totem decay is still not resolved. Why can't we just have inactive totems have no effect after a certain time period and so you have a two step removal process.

Why fight over a totem, what do I gain? How do I defend a totem if I'm on holiday? Lots of things that have yet to even be considered. You basically want a game that caters for those that are logged in for excessive amounts of hours.

Bottom line, what's missing? reason.

Give me a rare resource node and I'll fight over it. Howver that still isn't about fighting over a totem because you wouldn't stick a totem near a rare node because then it will affect scav :)
Then were talking about contested totems. when will they be in?
The only gain to attacking a totem is access to the bins. What do they currently contain that makes it worthwhile? nothing. Saw blades maybe...

We are still a ways off from the game having any reason to PVP and yet still you bleat on about the same old arguments. I nor anyone else has any control over the features or timelines that the devs care to pursue.

So what do we gain with removal of safe zones? absolutely nothing.
What do we gain with more PVP features? absolutely nothing.

Features still in dev need to be completed first. We would not be fighting over totems anyway, totems are meaningless in terms of PVP. We'll be fighting over rare resources which would be contested totems. People would have to travel to them and thus be open to attack. Not enough common sense is being applied to this discussion and until it is and some thought is also given to new players as well, this will just be people arguing about what they want from thier perspective given thier current skills.

So do I agree with not expanding the land mass? no, add the rare resource nodes and a reason to use them such as boosts to everything made that make a substantial difference and this will bring the community together more than having a smaller land mass so were closer to each other. Or add the rare resource nodes to the existing land mass too. That's a reason to PVP. There are many decisions I disagree with in the direction of the game but I do not boil it down to a simplistic, PVP vs Carebear view because it isn't, it is a combination of factors that have either no balance or reason. The vociferous minority will always have thier opinions and I'm fine with that and only hope the devs are being much more reasoned than many forum posters are.


There are tons of rare resources. What are you talking about? You already said it yourself. Saw blades, human bones, some of the cloths, high QL stuff (supreme, or master QL of some types of stuff). I dont know where you are getting that there are not rare items in game.

I agree it is a combination of factors, however, a HUGE one is the PVP vs carebear issue. If you added in totem take overs RIGHT now with ALL the current systems in place. You would find needs for SOOOOOOO many things.
Owning lands, and just the fact you can take them from people is more than enough to spur on wars and PVP. Many of the lands are in prime spots for trade and basic resources that people would be more than happy to fight to take from someone or defend to not lose it. Not even counting all the effort of building it they would want to defend it.

I agree add in contested rare resources that can be controlled and taken over would be another boon for giving items worth. So with these 2 changes, and ZERO changes to items bonuses themselves, you would have HUGE value changes. Econ would jump also.

Added after 8 minutes:


This is exactly why I don't play WoW or other themepark games. I don't see the point in playing a game to get better armor only to be able to get even better armor. Lol. More credit to the ones who still can enjoy it.
But at least armors do make a huge difference in WoW.

Armor makes a huge difference here. So I dont see your point. Try wearing junk QL bone armor vs Supreme bone armor. Its like 2x better in some cases 3x better.



This is not the first time when I get the feeling that you can't read or can't understand what you read. I really don't mean this as an insult, simply just an observation. That you wrote here is the same thing that I'm saying...so why are you arguing then ? There is no reason to build apart of that towns look cool, no reason to craft apart of being the best crafter, I said add monsters that attack towns and there you go you will need walls...but at first the buildings should have some usage to be worth to be protected.

You are saying items have no value, yet they do already, problem is other strife issues. You are saying change bonuses on items to make them more of a value. But right now giving a hammer 10x the effect isnt going to make it used more or wanted more. However, adding in strife would make the value go up. You believe adding bonuses and effect = added value, which it does IF there were end reasons to get it.



Again, the same problem. You don't read what I wrote or don't understand it. I didn't say Xsyon has no vanity items...I said it has no vanity items which are rare and looks really good. Actually nothing looks really good in Xsyon...especially on female characters. Every armor look ugly. No reason to desire it.

Rare is a relative term. How many supreme sets of South Camp armor have you seen?



I'm glad you agree with me. This is what I keep saying in this whole thread, that crafted items and buildings have no use, they don't give bonuses, thus crafting them is pointless.

I didnt say building or crafted stuff have no bonuses or are pointless. Im saying the bonuses are minor, and without strife worth almost nothing.
You are the ones confused. Bonuses do not have a value when there is no end goal to it.
If a had a one of a kind hammer that made wooden needles 1000000x better than other hammers, that hammer would still be of low value, because needles are not needed and are very easy to make.
Now if needles were in high demand. Then sure it would be great and have tons of value.



This made me wonder. I've never talked to you in game, I never talk on global chat. So when and where did I say this in game ? I have a feeling that you mistake me with someone else.

You have talked to me in game, and you do talk in global sometimes.

[Jadzia]

Fights would give purpose for armors and weapons...but at first you need something that is worth to fight for. But I've said this several times to you so I'm done with it.


Rare is a relative term. How many supreme sets of South Camp armor have you seen?
I have one, and I crafted some to my friends. Not rare at all. Plus it looks awful on female characters


You have talked to me in game, and you do talk in global sometimes.
Never. Now I'm sure you mistake me with someone else, and I'm pretty sure you don't even know my ingame name.

[MrDDT]

Fights would give purpose for armors and weapons...but at first you need something that is worth to fight for. But I've said this several times to you so I'm done with it.


I have one, and I crafted some to my friends. Not rare at all. Plus it looks awful on female characters


Never. Now I'm sure you mistake me with someone else, and I'm pretty sure you don't even know my ingame name.


Sorry, but hard to debate with someone that just flat out lies over and over. Good luck with your carebear game and failure to admit it over and over that its harming the game.

Haha made some supreme sets of South Camp armor haha.

[Jadzia]

Sorry, but hard to debate with someone that just flat out lies over and over. Good luck with your carebear game and failure to admit it over and over that its harming the game.

Haha made some supreme sets of South Camp armor haha.

I never lie. Not my style.
Not supreme set. South Camp set, supreme looks the same, we were talking about vanity items so stats don't matter, do they. I still wonder who did you talk to who you though was me.

[Derek]

Why is there a thread for this? You guys do realize they have a dedicated developer for combat mechanics and AI. They can work on things in parallel so stop asking something to be put on hold that is 75% done or else nothing in this game will be in a satisfactory state.

[MrDDT]

I never lie. Not my style.
Not supreme set. South Camp set, supreme looks the same, we were talking about vanity items so stats don't matter, do they. I still wonder who did you talk to who you though was me.

Haha.
Xsyon needs more vanity items ROFL. What we have isnt enough. We need MORE. More safe zones too. More things that just "look cool" is what is needed.

I love these carebears.

[Willowhawk]

I am completely sick and tired of this pathetic childish argument about PVP'rs and carebears when the issues are fundamentally nothing to do with that and never have been. Lack of features, balance and reason to do anything are and always have been the issues, you just choose to spin it to your viewpoint.


Thanks Andy, for your voice of reason in an exhasting and futile thread that frankly made my head hurt.

[inhabit]

Sheesh....yous guys still going at it.

When i posted this i thought it was fairly simple i will reword incase it caused confusion :)
Combat on Hold (eg are we fairly happy now where its at atm) and would people then be happy if we started seeing more content additions in comparison (eg zombies/carts/ranged weapons etc) which now appears underway in Jordis latest answered questions (my post was a day too early :)

Agree with AndyI, carebears vs PvP....fanboi vs trolls whatever way you wanna spin it.....couldnt give a toss tbh.


Why is there a thread for this? You guys do realize they have a dedicated developer for combat mechanics and AI. They can work on things in parallel so stop asking something to be put on hold that is 75% done or else nothing in this game will be in a satisfactory state.
Derek, (and few others) thanks for actually keeping it short and on topic :), reason for thread Derek was to get constructive comments back from people who may know more than i do. Yeh i understand they now have a separate team but over the last while it "SEEMED" as though it was combat focused, however i understand they had big issues trying to sort disconnect issues etc so hopefully now they got to grips with that we may start seeing a variety of content.

[Jadzia]

Haha.
Xsyon needs more vanity items ROFL. What we have isnt enough. We need MORE. More safe zones too. More things that just "look cool" is what is needed.

I love these carebears.
You really are having issues with reading. Where did I exactly say Xsyon needs more vanity items ? Actually in this whole thread I keep saying that Xsyon needs the items/buildings to actually do something apart of looking cool, and that is what you argue with, lol.

Still waiting for you to tell who was the character you talked to in game you thought was me. I'd like to know if someone is acting like she/he was me in game. Or did you simply lie about it ?

[MrDDT]

You really are having issues with reading. Where did I exactly say Xsyon needs more vanity items ? Actually in this whole thread I keep saying that Xsyon needs the items/buildings to actually do something apart of looking cool, and that is what you argue with, lol.



Pure vanity items may have value as well, if they are very rare and looks really good. But Xsyon has nothing like that.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood this post BY YOU about vanity items.


Inhabit, Im very very sad at how combat is in the game right now. You are happy with the way it is right now? Armor's effect is much less now, Preorder weapons are still the best in the game sorta (fists are really the best DPS), and that it takes 10mins to kill someone? That makes you happy?

Well I guess Im outruled here, I hope you guys enjoy it. Not like I can really play this game much anymore, the current state of the game for me is next to worthless. I would rather play Tetris than this game in its state. All 100 people playing likely are having a blast if they think like these carebears do.

[inhabit]

Inhabit, Im very very sad at how combat is in the game right now. You are happy with the way it is right now? Armor's effect is much less now, Preorder weapons are still the best in the game sorta (fists are really the best DPS), and that it takes 10mins to kill someone? That makes you happy?
Thanks for the constructive post, so are you saying they basically increased the base damage a player can take, but armour was left as it was therefore closing the gap between being naked/armoured?

Yeh 10mins does seem overkill however "IF" the effort vs reward was good then wouldnt be so bad, but in saying that i would get a tribe mate to come along and help if the reward was good enough(this clearly isn't the case at this moment in time).

However this was the point in my post "IF" they start hammering out more content/reasons (for everyone) as of now which makes the reward greater would people be happy with this seeing smaller updates to the combat.(As Derek said above if they can split their time then we will see whats coming over the next few weeks)



Well I guess Im outruled here, I hope you guys enjoy it. Not like I can really play this game much anymore, the current state of the game for me is next to worthless. I would rather play Tetris than this game in its state. All 100 people playing likely are having a blast if they think like these carebears do.
Your had to then spoil it didn't ya XD

[Liquidblade]

100% agreed. There is no reason to pvp.
1- no point to it.
2- we can get everything we need from resources.
3- I dont spend 24/7 toning my character for pvp.

Now it would make it more interesting if perhaps we got rare loot when we killed a player. Such like very rare human skull or whatever. Perhaps 2 types one for Pkrs (evil) and one for people who only kill pkrs (good) the more one does the more items one would get either way. The more evil one becomes would change the path of your crafting patterns as more evil looking and vice versa. This would increase pvp in game and perhaps population.

NOTE:
Your alignment would also effect how your construction schemes look. I could see someone with a dark walls castle, dead trees, real evil looking, and in the good side, golden halls, bright marble stone etc.

Also may I suggest adding tiers to tribe building instead of amount a players a tribe has. As a player builds so much, their land increases to the next level. and so on. If a smaller tribe is near, they would either have to work harder to overcome the tribe instead of the bigger tribe being subject to not growing. I mean Legion has 39 Members and only 6-7 are active on a daily basis. But we sure work our butts of, and would probably would work harder to get to the next tier (Just think that at tier two you learn the scheme for stairs, or a second floor) my mouth is drooling with all the possibilities.

[eric]

Maybe it would help if we were allowed to have two characters per account?

I mean, my character is 'tuned' for crafting/gathering stuff.. hence my reluctance to go out and fight others.. it would be rather pointless because I have virtually no points in combat skills.
Now if I'd have a second one I could join a pvp guild (or even get some lessons in how to pvp with some chance of a positive outcome) or fight people at random.

Buying a second account and the second subscription fee is just too much I feel for the game in its current state...

[Liquidblade]

Maybe it would help if we were allowed to have two characters per account?

I mean, my character is 'tuned' for crafting/gathering stuff.. hence my reluctance to go out and fight others.. it would be rather pointless because I have virtually no points in combat skills.
Now if I'd have a second one I could join a pvp guild (or even get some lessons in how to pvp with some chance of a positive outcome) or fight people at random.

Buying a second account and the second subscription fee is just too much I feel for the game in its current state...

how about buying a second slot? lol

[eric]

how about buying a second slot? lol

Is that possible then? If so, I did not know this...

Edit (after 1 minute):
Nope, I don't have such an option.

If you meant to suggest buying another account, that is what I find too expensive just for a second pvp-character..

[Liquidblade]

Is that possible then? If so, I did not know this...

Edit (after 1 minute):
Nope, I don't have such an option.

If you meant to suggest buying another account, that is what I find too expensive just for a second pvp-character..

I meant it as a suggestion for the Devs!!
but to be honest, wont it be easier just to develop those skills rather than starting a whole new toon all over? I mean we do pick a primary skill like slash right?