View Full Version : Feedback Request: Combat Test Server 2011 09 03

09-03-2011, 08:56 AM
We are currently testing combat desynch on the Test Server. If you are interested, please provide feedback on PvP combat or movement synchronization here.

You will see creatures standing around the world that can't be killed. We are setting up a new creature distribution so these animals currently have their AI movement and life loss turned off.

All feedback is welcome!

09-06-2011, 03:25 PM
Every time I log on to test, I can't find mobs or people to test combat on. I can comment on the swing animations. There seems to be a cooldown between swings so I can't fluidly switch from holding a left swing to holding a right swing or some other direction. Also, if I am holding a left swing and they parry in a direction while still holding the swing button, I release the parry and motion to another direction but it still holds the left swing instead of the new direction I am motioning.

09-06-2011, 07:33 PM
Currently (on live anyway) it will not register 2 quick hits in succession, with my axes. So wielding one axe is just as useful as dual wielding them. I think fists register quick hits pretty easily, but axes do not for some reason.

Added after 38 minutes:

Also, I didn't notice a difference in damage done on live and test, maybe it needs to be a larger difference. I didn't like 5 hits to kill, but 100 is even worse. Maybe somewhere in the 10-30 range depending on damage and hp

Added after 13 minutes:

It also doesn't seem like weapon levels affect damage at all. And it certainly doesn't show up in the combat calculations which makes me think it isn't a factor.

09-07-2011, 12:38 AM
Im same as Derek nothing to test combat on apart from stationary animals when i log in and generally noone is on.
While this lets you see damage output text its hardly a true combat situation.
So until we get meaningful PvP chances (eg working animals and people to fight ) I find it difficult to give appropriate feedback.
At the end of the day these are the situations combat will be used in so until this is replicated hitting a stationary object deosnt give a true reflection how the system will perform in the "real world".
I would like to see how long it takes to kill people/animals in a true combat situation and how desync is.
Maybe this weeks PvP event should take place on the test server if we dont get the patch this week?

09-07-2011, 09:43 AM
I cant see how much damage we do in relation to life of a target as animals cant die on test, and there is like 2 people testing.

Attack swings are still to fast to parry/dodge.

I dont see a real difference in range of weapons, blades are still damn good as they attack fast and still do a ton of damage based on how fast they attack, with good enough range.
Other weapons really are not a choice. I did notice that axe cut through armor a bit better. So thats cool for a choice.

Preorder weapons are still very good, most damage per attack and with the damage bonuses like they are will be the choice in battles, with an off hand that's faster.

Attack swings are not doing AOE damage meaning you cant attack more than 1 thing at a time. This really needs to be changed badly. Side sweeps (arcs left and right) need to do less damage but have a much much easier chance to hit. Overhead and thrusts should have a lot more damage because they are a lot harder to hit.
Low attacks are harder to hit but they should have other advantage like maybe slowing the target or harder to block/dodge, so far none of these things are even close to being working.

Desync looks fine on test but then again only tested with 2 people on a server with 0 animals moving and 5 or less people playing on it at during the testing.

Armor has almost no effect from what I can tell. Maybe its just the armor type I was using, I didnt have access to all my weapons and armor due to running for an hour to get to the one person online.

09-07-2011, 10:46 AM
It may be worth implementing an option to spawn at some common point on the test server so that people will be close to one another for testing combat etc...

09-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Killed about 9 critters last night. Damage on the chickens and ground squirrel were higher than normal mostly due to backstab damage and lower defense. Damage to bears, deer and coyotes were only slightly higher but with greater variation than on the live server. This was about half the displayed damage displayed on the previous patch when critters were invulnerable.

The damage the critters did to me was negligible, never amounting to more than 10% and mostly less even with large bears. This doesn't present any challenge.

Movement and distribution was much better. Critters would go into and cross water. Thought the deer was stuck in a waterfall, but he agro'ed me when I stood nearby. They also did not seem to kill each other off which should really help their availability for player slaughter. Some areas seemed to have a lot of critters and some seemed to be bare of animals, but since they can move around more this may be solved over time.

And till we get Molotov cocktails or hand grenades, please no AoE damage. If you hit something with a hand weapon hard enough to do damage, it just won't have the momentum to carry on and do more damage to something else.


09-07-2011, 01:15 PM
DDT, i don't think over hand and stab should do more.

because if you aim at the very edge of a players hit box and do an over hand or a side slash, you still have the same limitations for where that hit box starts and ends.

I noticed zero difference in the different swing types as far as accuracy is concerned.

09-07-2011, 03:34 PM
DDT, i don't think over hand and stab should do more.

because if you aim at the very edge of a players hit box and do an over hand or a side slash, you still have the same limitations for where that hit box starts and ends.

I noticed zero difference in the different swing types as far as accuracy is concerned.

If they added arc swings that were AOE effect (like Darkfall has) then the overhead ones and thrust would have smaller hit boxes by default.

09-07-2011, 07:04 PM



09-07-2011, 08:26 PM



I'm just so you are clear, Im not talking about like 7 meter area of effect weapon attacks (maybe for like a special move with like a pole-arm or something once those weapons come into the game).
I'm talking about how like in Darkfall (have you played it?) in melee you can hit 2 people or more with 1 swing if they are standing very close. Some attacks in Darkfall also attack all around the attacker (special attack called whirlwind attack).

09-08-2011, 12:09 PM
See post #14.

09-15-2011, 01:37 AM
Jooky said:

In my direct tests, combat lasts nowhere near as long as some players have been reported. Are you using swing power at all, or spam clicking the mouse buttons?

In my tests, there was no advantage in increasing swing power. Using blades, I can click twice in the time it takes me to hold and release the mouse button. The increase in damage is less than twice the standard fast-as-can swing.

Holding both mouse buttons down still move you forward, so you can't hold both attacks at once.

Since health now regenerates in combat, even big bears are no threat and I've played around a lot during combat. Blocking and parrying seem to be counter productive as they reduce the damage I deal. Once I get tired of playing with my food, spamming left click/right click is the fastest way to finish off the critter. I also try to move the mouse as little as possible as the angle of attack doesn't seem to matter.

The animations and sync is much improved, but after a lot of experimentation my tactics are the same as in beta--click as fast as possible until dead. All the effort on the new combat system has not made any difference in my combat play.


09-15-2011, 07:37 AM
Constructive criticism:

(1) Angle of attack doesn't matter for PvE. Players instinctively try to circle to the side or behind the mob to avoid their melee attack and score back hits. The problem is that mobs can attack behind themselves even though the animation shows them attacking forward. This is one reason why combat boils down to standing in front of the mob and spamming attack. (I'm not suggesting that it turn into who can circle strafe around the mob the best either.)

(2) Dodge and parry are too cumbersome to use. They are not at all like Mount & Blade where timing a block/parry is useful and fun. In Xsyon it just seems to hinder damage output with no real advantage (i.e. making it easier to score a counter strike). From the animations and sounds, it is also very difficult to tell if a dodge or parry was even successful w/out trying to read the combat log.


(1) Turn off move forward key binding with left and right mouse button while in combat mode.

(2) Make angle of attack matter. Don't allow mobs to attack behind them unless it is some type of special attack like a rear kick from a horse, etc..

(3) Completely revamp the parry and dodge mechanic. Study Mount & Blade closely because, hands down, this game has the best parry/block mechanic than any other. It requires skill and timing while keeping it fun.

(4) Start by making a successful block or parry animation more pronounced. Add a different audio and visual effect for this.

(5) Scrap the dodge ability in favor of some dash function using double tap direction (or shift + direction), but don't make this ability spammable. This ability could have its own special stamina bar which drains quickly similar to how Guild Wars 2 functions. Dragon Nest (in beta) also uses a similar mechanic.

(5) Add some variety to the mob AI. Darkfall does this pretty well. Goblins will kite you when they get low. Their buddies will beat on you while you chase down the low hp one. Mobs that have both melee and ranged ability will randomly disengage and start range attacking while another one steps in for melee. Others with magic abilities will disengage, heal, then re-engage.

(6) Add ranged combat asap even if it is buggy. This will keep players entertained and subbed while you tweak melee combat.

09-15-2011, 09:56 AM
Ravelli, Derek great comments.

I wanted to talk about "dodge" and "parry" a little.

My major problem with dodge or parry, is that the attacker doesnt suffer at all from these. Meaning, if you are attacking me and I dodge your attack. You lose nothing out of it. Granted you gain nothing, but you lose nothing. The only change is that there was a .5 second gap where no damage changed hands.

Why would I ever parry an attack? When I could just dodge it by moving to the side? Also my chances to parry could cause me to not parry, so its not a sure thing.

Both of you guys also talked about the "double mouse buttons" people asked for this type of movement (I have no idea why but they did). I dont see to have a problem with this when I'm in combat, but likely because I'm not spamming clicking left and right as fast as I can.
I think rather than remove it, they need to change combat in this game to slow it the heck down. NOT how long it takes to kill someone or something. But the attack speeds are still too fast. If I'm holding an attack, that's really the only time someone has the CHOICE to dodge or parry, because the other attacks are too fast. Which like you and others have said, there is no reason to hold attacks.

They need to make fast attacks do almost no damage, this will make it so people hold attacks. If I hold my attack for the 3 seconds it takes, it shouldnt just do 3x more damage than the fast 1 second attack, it should do like 9x more damage. Because, I can be hit to interrupt that attack. I can be dodged or parred 10x times easier. Plus a lot of other things. Normal attacking should be a full hold EACH TIME. You should choose to do a fast attack to do something, but not for DPS.

If everyone were holding attacks for 3 seconds, parry and dodge would come into play greatly. Because, then people would be able to see these attacks and avoid them. If I were fighting someone with high parry or dodge and they were good at it. I would have to change my tactics to attack faster.

Now in doing this also, a fast punch shouldnt fully stop an attack. Right now if I hit you with a fist, you lose all your power (adrenaline). I dont agree with that, I think you should lose adrenaline based on how much damage you took. IE if you took 1 damage, you might lose 10% of that built of adrenaline, if I took 10 damage you might lose 90% or 100%. (For those that dont know, 10 damage is like a back shot fully charged with a supreme weapon from someone with 100 skill).

Ranged combat would be great, however, I dont want another broken system to come into it and have to balance 2 at the same time.

Your idea with the Dive or Shifting is great. Ive seen it in a few games already.

My major problem with combat right now is still desync (yes its out there, but no one will take a video with me so I can show you guys) and the fact there is no real choice in combat of what to do, you are always going in circles to get back shots and no one parries or dodges or does hold attacks.
Skilling up isnt based on how much damage per attack, its based only on how many attacks you get to next skill point. Which means, while PVE you are going to be using crappy weapons. Doesnt drive the econ when people are using crap stuff.

Another thing is that angle of attack does matter, but its so slight. Choosing the right spot to attack DOES matter, but again WAY to slight. Armor needs a major boost.

Where are our damage numbers? You give us damage numbers when its spamming the crap out of our screens THEN add a combat log and we get 1/2 of the info removed. Reasons for this?

I can go on but Ive already given enough food for thought.

10-18-2011, 05:28 AM
Holding down a swing or holding down a parry should use stamina.

Successful parrys should give an extra stamina drain to the attacker, as well as give the attacker a 0.5 second delay period before being able to attack again.

Added after 15 minutes:

Also, in general, I think jogging and sprinting stamina use needs to be cut in half, and stamina use from jumping should be doubled.

Added after 18 minutes:

Another thing I just noticed. Damage seems to be getting stuck ont he last weapon used. So for example, if you are using two different weapons (i was using axe and pick), if you swing 4x in a row with the axe, it will do A damage. If you swing 20x in a row it will do A damage. However, when you switch to swing the pick after using an axe before that, the very first swing of the pick will also do A damage exactly. The next swing will do B damage (that of the picks actual damage). This works visa versa with pick and axe.

This also applies to swinging left right left right left. For example, if damage A was meant to be done by axe, and damage B done by the pick, well if you alternate the swings, eventually the pick will start doing damage A, and the axe will do damage B.

I can make a video if need be.

Added after 3 Hours 44 minutes:

Damage seems very balanced. Great job. Combat feels fun. Also, parry is working pretty well now. The parry sound adds a great deal of immersion to combat.

Another suggestion, perhaps the dodge skill should be something like the sidestep skill in darkfall. That would be more useful as a dodge anyway. It would be a way to fully mitigate attacks, but should cost a decent amount of stamina (maybe 2% of stamina per dodge, with stamina usage dropping to 0.5% or so at level 100 dodge skill).

Added after 22 minutes:

If possible, I'd like to see the delay between the weapon hitting and being able to parry decreased. Right now, it is still slightly hard to fit a parry in between swings.

So if you decrease the base delay time a bit, but add a 0.5 delay for the attacker when he gets his attack parried, I think you will see a much larger emphasis being placed on parry use.

10-18-2011, 09:12 AM
I disagree with the sprinting stamina use. Leave it just like it is, but lower the running (basic speed) stamina used down.

If you make stamina drain a LOT more per successful parry, then there is no reason to speed up the parry / attack delay that you talk about in the last statement.
I also want to see a slight delay like you said (.5 is a good starting point) after a successful parry to the attacker. Meaning the defender will have a small window to get an attack in. You can also base this time off how long the charge up time of the attack was. Longer charge up = shorter delay after the successful parry. This will promote people to still want to do longer charges. Also making people who parry fast and well to get more of a bonus out of it, slowing down the fight in their favor making the other person charge up more.

Few things I notice in the current combat.

1) Charge up attacks are the way to go, but easy to parry (good thing).
2) Parry isnt used much at all unless someone is doing full long long charges.
3) Still have the "Charge up, sprint in, swing, sprint out" effect. This is due many factors.
4) Jumping still major problem with desync and not using enough stamina in a fight.
5) No way to get HP, or Stamina back in a fight.
6) 2 v 1 fights are almost impossible for the 1 to win due to stamina still. (If toon skill, HP, weapons and armor are even). Good players (AKA players playing toons well) should beable to defeat multiple Poor players (players that miss a lot or dont know how to fight) fairly easy. Stamina regen, and HP regen is preventing most of this, also the lack of an advantage in parrying.
7) Why parry? You avoid damage, but you gain nothing.

The way I see parry right now is like this. Parry Player A vs Attacker Player B. If A does nothing but parry, they will surely lose. If B does nothing but attack they will surely win. If player A does good parries and attacks once in a while they will lose. If player B only attacks and never parries they will win.
To me its like this, I give you 5 cards, and I have 5 cards. If you win (parry) you keep your card. If I win (hit) I take your card. At the end of the day you can see you never take a card from me due to you cant hit because you are forced to parry. Soon as you attack, Im still attacking too, so the best you can hope for is to have both sides take a card. So if the best it both taking a card at the same time, why would you ever parry?
Now back to the top, the only reason you would parry is for charged attacks, but all attacks really should be charged because its way better.

I can go into it more, but the effect really needs to be promote parry more, and charged attacks, also allow good players to win fights based on tactics. HP regen, Energy regen options need to come into effect.

Another major issue I have with combat is where is the flare? Special moves? Nope. Counters? Tactics? Stuns? These things need to happen in some ways. I love the back attacks that's a great thing. Combat is looking a lot better, and even a lot more fun right now.
I was fighting someone yesterday, and it wasnt all that hard to parry 85%+ of their attacks. It was pretty fun just to do that, but I couldnt get an attack in myself due to whenever I goto attack they hit me also. Even at 85% parrying, I was unable to kill these people because I couldnt get an attack back without them doing an attack (and normally harder one too due to how it works out). So my parry choice wasnt really working. Ive yet to see it work for anyone either, Ive done quiet a few duels and PVP with it. Its just not really an option.
The ONLY thing I see parry useful in, is when its 2+ vs 1 ratios. Then the 1 is at a MAJOR loss to kill someone when all they have to do is parry, and the other teammate can get an attack in. Unless the 1 doesnt miss as much, has better skill/gear/HP etc, they will lose very very easy. For me fighting 2+ vs 1 ratios on even powered toons, I will lose 95% of the time, but I win 1 v 1 all these people 100% of the time. (Im not trying to boast here trying to explain, I know there are much better players out there than me also.)