PDA

View Full Version : Combat Feedback: Newest Combat Video



MrDDT
09-16-2011, 10:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/embed/yjW-A8iSDnI?hd=1


I wanted to show how long combat lasts.

In this fight, we are using very good weapons (Master knife for me with a preorder Axe which preorders still do the most damage in the game, Roth is using a Master Axe and Club).

Roth isnt wearing armor here (leather shirt and leather pants, not armor).
Roth also didnt eat or drink before the fight so is at 0 food and thirst.

I have very high skills in combat, so my damage should be upper end.

The fight lasts over 3mins (I cut out a small part where he stopped and was talking on ventrilo, for about 2 seconds near the end).

No parries or dodges were done (active), Roth has really poor combat skills.

What are your guys opinions on how long the fight lasts?


A few comments about my opinions.

I believe the fight lasts WAY to long for really just "forced" fighting. Meaning he wanted to attack me, and I wanted to attack him. Normally if someone were losing a fight, they would do more things like run around and heal up, parry, block etc. Which would cause the fight to last many many times longer.

Weapon types matter very little.

Swing types matter very little.

Charged swings are worthless as if you get hit, you lose the charge which is 3x number of normal attacks missed.

Charged attacks only do 2x damage. (Or really 2.1x)

Still major dysnc issues. He was saying how he was behind me most of the fight, and I would say 30 or 40% I was behind or behind side of him.

Many attacks miss that look like they should hit.

No reasons to parry, or dodge because you are just losing your own damage. Only reason maybe is if, they charge an attack (which no one does) or you are holding out til help arrives.

Parry or dodge is sorta hard, as you have to time the parry or dodge to the attacks, and the attacks can be very fast. Preorder stuff isnt all that fast but still pretty fast, but knives and fists are very very fast.

Holding a parry doesnt cost stamina.

Attacking costs 0 stamina, thus parrying or dodging an attack is really no loss to the attacker.

Combat is very very boring. No special actions, no real choices. Just circle around the target to try to hit his back, while they are doing the same or trying to get away.

Movement speeds are very close. Roth has very low AGI, and I was able to catch him, but only because our stats are 50+ points off in that fashion. Someone with close to my AGI would easy be able to get away.

No way for someone with low AGI to get away from someone with high AGI. No special skills, no speed potions, no mounts, no smoke bombs, or stuns or anything. Not saying all those should be in game just saying no options at all. Either you have high AGI or you cant get away.


This type of combat, is really just boring to me, and its all prep work for who is going to win. Who has better weapons, Who has better armor, Who has faster AGI, Who has food/thirst, Who has better skills.

Very little comes down to Who does better choices in combat or Who has better aim, or Who does what at the right time. If anything really.

Also fighting 2 people or more at the same time, gives the person thats solo or on the lower number ratio almost no chance at winning.
No AOE attacks, no ARC attacks, Stamina issues in running around, without anyway to gain it back.

The list goes on and on.
Really need someone that understands combat better to look at this and see what is up. I know a lot of work was done for parry/block and directional swings, but all that work is for naught if no one wants to use them because they hurt or are break even.

NorCalGooey
09-16-2011, 10:55 AM
:(

that's all

Liquidblade
09-16-2011, 11:19 AM
I would have to agree with ya MrDDT, even with stat armor, it takes way to long, I liked it how it was to begin with, dont know why they changed it in the first place. I like the added stats, but its way to boring trying to kill someone, and you really cant kill someone cause now they can actually get "away". This type of combat is only good for duels between players that are looking to face one another. Either increase damage amount, aim, or decrease defense.

Pollygod
09-16-2011, 11:19 AM
Hrmmm not much of a PvPer myself but agree combat missing something I was thinking maybe if doge and perry were just calculations that would if successful make toon doge er perry this would free up alt and control for maybe a kick move or a grab hit or someth'n...but also don't wanna see combat get an overhaul either I like the way it works just needs a little someth'n more :) and perhaps make these new moves if critical incapacitate for a few seconds :)

also was wondering ...since I didn't start with 90 srt dex and agil even if I had the best armour and gear I would never be a match for someone like MrDDT who did if he did I know make'n mortar will increase srt over time but thats still real years away lol so other than entertainment (and it is fun :) )me in PvP would be time wasted no?

Xsyon
09-16-2011, 02:52 PM
I really appreciate this type of feedback, so first of all, thank you very much.

I need to make a few comments.

Roth has very high hit points. This is one reason for the length of this fight.
The difference between your agilities is 22 points.
Leather pants and a shirt is armor. The base armor parts account for about 30% of a total set. There should be a significant difference between leather pants and a shirt and a naked player.
A fully charged swing does 3.5 x more damage than a completely uncharged swing.

I agree that as a 'forced fight' this takes too long, however it appears that swing power is hardly used at all.

When we test in house we take advantage of what the system has to offer (directionaly swings, block, dodge and swing power) and we feel that combat is more fun and it does not take so long. So what are the main reasons that instead of actually using the system, players are running around in circles like this and using quick swing that deliver little power, thus drawing out combat?

1) The main reason you are not parrying or dodging seems that swing are too fast. How much slower should they be? (2x, or more?)
2) Parrying can be held and you can switch between a held swing and a held parry. Have you tried this? If so, what is the problem with it that it's not being used?
3) Held swings (charged attacks) are not always cancelled when you are hit. Please test this. There is a 50% base chase that the held swing will be cancelled. If they are being cancelled too much when you have high skills I will adjust this. A high skilled attacker should not have his held swings cancelled.
4) Do rear attacks increase damage by too much? Is this why you are constantly circling each other?
5) Am I missing something else? What other reasons are causing players to fight like this rather than use the system as designed?

To me this looks like a matter of tweaking variables so that players use the system that we've spent so much time implementing. Once that has been achieved we will work on special attacks and defenses.

Thanks again.

PS: This thread will be moved to our Feedback section.

inhabit
09-16-2011, 03:09 PM
Xsyon

when you say use system as designed, do you mean we need to stand still and use parry/dodge and not move around???

If so then that is a big flaw to be honest please clarify??

Also if you charge your swing could someone not hit you twice quickly therfore cancelling your swing everytime?

NorCalGooey
09-16-2011, 03:39 PM
Parry can be held down and dodge cannot be.

Also, dodge only does 25% damage mitigation where as I've seen parry do 100% full mitigation.

What is the point in dodge skill?

Damage done by all chars should be increased by 4-5x and damage done by all NPCs should be increased by around 8-10x. This would create a system where NPCs can actually kill me when I go afk, but also a system where we can kill them without it taking 2-3 minutes, preferably more like 30 seconds - 1 minute depending on the damage per second done by the player.

Xsyon
09-16-2011, 04:09 PM
Xsyon
when you say use system as designed, do you mean we need to stand still and use parry/dodge and not move around???

I mean use the advantage of swing power and yes, parrying or dodging. It seems that players are ignoring all of this to get the advantage of rear attacks, which is not so much of an advantage without a full powered swing.


Also if you charge your swing could someone not hit you twice quickly therfore cancelling your swing everytime?
No. If you have high defense skills, your swings should never be cancelled. If this is not working properly, I need to fix it. Actually I will change this to be based on your attack skills, not defense skills.



Also, dodge only does 25% damage mitigation where as I've seen parry do 100% full mitigation.
They both have the same range of damage mitigation and this is based on your skills and stats. Parry will damage your weapons, but you are right in that there should be more of a difference.

Thanks again for the feedback. I will check in for more feedback later.

NorCalGooey
09-16-2011, 04:16 PM
I see. Well I have never gotten a 100% with dodge where as it is quite common with parry skill, even when both skills were at level 5. Even if they were both equal in mitigation at the same skill level, parry can be held down, and that alone is enough to use it instead over dodge, every time. The timing of mitigation with parrying 100x easier than dodging.

Perhaps something to be looked into.

Also, attack skills do not affect combat damage. I have tested this thoroughly. So has DDT, who probably has the highest combat attack skills in the game.

Derek
09-16-2011, 05:28 PM
I hope the system isn't designed to just stand toe-to-toe while trading blows and using dodge/parry. What makes a melee combat system fun and visceral is the ability to gain advantage through movement in and out of weapon range while feinting strikes, timing blocks, and counter striking. In Xsyon, players instinctively circle their opponent because it is currently the only mechanism that allows them to gain an advantage on their opponent.

Sorry to keep bringing up Mount & Blade but it is the best example I know that exemplifies fun melee combat. Here is a video showing how a player with a very short ranged blunt weapon uses movement and parry to get in close and land a clean strike on players with longer ranged melee weapons. If I had to pick one main factor stopping people from using parry would be that it doesn't cause a weapon kick back animation effectively causing a delay for when they can swing again. This video shows how a successful parry is clearly effective in combat and also clearly communicated to the player by visual and audio cues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgaNLZa5ZJI&feature=related

Trenchfoot
09-16-2011, 06:46 PM
Great example Derek.


clearly communicated to the player by visual and audio cues

I think this point is essential,but I would also add that simply 'communicating' it isn't enough. It must also be communicated in a fashion that gives a reasonable amount of time to react. Which MnB does, IMO. I am an old man, so admittedly younger players may see this as a minor issue, but my reflexes aren't what they used to be. I'm not saying you should slow it down for us old folks, but it should be somewhere in the middle. I do have a lot of fun in MnB combat and it doesn't seem too fast for me as it at least allows me to compete with a quicker reaction time by playing smarter.

In MnB sometimes a duel can go on forever (though I've seen duels last less than 6 seconds between highly skilled players too). My point is, should we eliminate the 'possibility' that a match might continue for a long period of time? I just don't want to see a mechanism that blanket dictates that matches 'must' be short.

Something else I will point out. In MnB there is no parry/dodge skill so to speak. Everyone can parry or dodge, and if they successfully parry or dodge they do not get hit. It's a skill that the player has, not necessarily the character. I think that could lend itself to the reasoning whether or not to utilize a move or not as well. If my parry skill is junk, why would I use it unless all my skills were also junk? If my dodge skill is high I might use it exclusively.. and so on.

China
09-16-2011, 06:47 PM
I've tested the power swing with players in my tribe with high hit pts also. I would have to say my power swings get cancelled way too often. I haven't tested the percentage.

And the reason fighters circle is to try and get a back hit. It is rather annoying and hard to achieve since my opponent is normally circling also. I never use dodge, and seldom parry. Mostly I try to dodge by going in for a hit and quickly backing, sidestepping etc. Parry can be used in my opinion only when the tactics of your opponent call for it, and they depend on the opponent's level of armed combat and the rate of energy depletion.

Drevar
09-16-2011, 06:59 PM
Totally my opinion here, so bear that in mind.

People appear to be fighting FPS style, ie. running around like chickens with thier heads cut off so that the other person can't hit them and looking for an opening to strike. I'm suprised they aren't doing the annoying constant jumping made popular in Quake.

Super speedy combat is not really possible in an MMO where the server has to keep track of (in some cases literally) a billion other things while also trying to keep two opposing character positions and actions synched up. Things are happening here so fast that there is no way to ever get rid of the desynch; even if its not a true technical desynch where the server is actually skipping updating your position/status, but simply a visual desynch due to client side prediction. The situation might be better once multiple servers/CPUs are load balancing different aspects of the game. Even the M&B video up there looks a bit out of sync. Notice how many times the spear/polearm people swing when they are obviously out of range...on their screen they probaby see the person recording as actually being in range (or they just totally suck and don't have any feel for their weapon choice, LOL)

1. Movement speed in combat needs to be cut a good bit still. Jittering around all over the place doesn't look like any SCA battle I've ever seen. The M&B video above shows a good speed. I can actually track what is going on and its not just a blur of flesh colored blobs strafing in a circle spamming attack.

2. Swings and dodge/parry need to be slowed down or have some sort of recovery animation. When you swing a big-ass axe, once you are at the end of the swing arc the axe doesn't snap back into ready position instantly. Maybe some more balancing needs to be done on weapon swing speeds as well?

3. Weapon ranges need to match their visual representation in game. "Eh, close enough" just isn't going to cut it in the minds of most. I shouldn't be able to hit someone 2 meters away with a dagger on an overhand swing (unless its some kind of special lunge attack), nor should I have to get inside 1m to hit with a spear or long handled axe (again, unless its some sort of special attack where you strike with the butt end of the shaft for a stun effect or similar). The distance you can hit from should be discernable just by looking at your weapon's reach, not after 100s of swings to determine where the magic invisible hit-boxes actually are.

4. I'm not sure how to handle those of us who got a whole hell of a lot of levels (and thus HP) via maxing out multiple craft schools. If HP is further adjusted via combat skills, then those who mostly craft won't have a chance to defend themselves. Normally that would be logical, but in a game where we pay to be entertained rather than harrassed, it just won't fly. For that reason I do like long combat. It gives those who want to try to run a chance to run instead of the old system where someone who specialized in combat could one shot you with a preorder axe. Those who enjoy fighting can stick around and fight.

5. Energy consumption needs to be tied to weapon type (or individual weapon stats) and skills and stats. You should be able to flick a dagger around quickly and you would tire slowly, but each hit would do relatively little damage. A big axe, however would be much slower, consume more energy, and do significantly more damage.

6. Weapons (and armor) need a bit more individualism both as archetypes as well as each individual weapon. Daggers as a group might have a higher chance to crit, while axes have a higher crit mod (they don't crit more, just harder when they do). Individual weapons within the groups would have their own distinquishing characteristics, be it faster swing but less damage or higher crit chance but slow speed, etc. The only caveat to this is the time it would take to balance all this junk.

7. Please add the joypad code for the horseman lance attack *grin*

*edit to add*
What would people think if parry was reactive within a small forward arc? Meaning if a swing came within the effective protective arc, you would parry the attack. I believe right now you have to pretty much time your parry so that it hits their weapon for it to count.

Liquidblade
09-16-2011, 07:02 PM
When we test in house we take advantage of what the system has to offer (directionaly swings, block, dodge and swing power) and we feel that combat is more fun and it does not take so long. So what are the main reasons that instead of actually using the system, players are running around in circles like this and using quick swing that deliver little power, thus drawing out combat?


I never seen anyone stand while getting a beat, there are chances of player missing if we move....so basically we move around to try not to get hit..at same time we try to hit them, thus we fight in circles! That is how pretty much all pvp games go.

NorCalGooey
09-16-2011, 07:11 PM
That's what MnB did so well. The weapon reaches are exactly the length of the model.

So the hit box for weapons are the same size as the weapons model. This shouldn't be too hard to emulate in Xsyon.

apart from the desync that makes it appear that weapon ranges are longer/shorter than they really are.

Drevar
09-16-2011, 07:26 PM
I also have to agree with the observation that one reason you don't see full power swings is because it is too difficult to hold it for more than half a second. Against animals it's nearly impossible to get a full swing in before they hit you and you drop back to a normal stance. Maybe skill with your wielded weapon (or maybe just armed/unarmed skill) should influence your chance to be interrupted on a held swing.

MrDDT
09-16-2011, 07:56 PM
I really appreciate this type of feedback, so first of all, thank you very much.

I need to make a few comments.

Roth has very high hit points. This is one reason for the length of this fight.
The difference between your agilities is 22 points.
Leather pants and a shirt is armor. The base armor parts account for about 30% of a total set. There should be a significant difference between leather pants and a shirt and a naked player.
A fully charged swing does 3.5 x more damage than a completely uncharged swing.

I agree that as a 'forced fight' this takes too long, however it appears that swing power is hardly used at all.

When we test in house we take advantage of what the system has to offer (directionaly swings, block, dodge and swing power) and we feel that combat is more fun and it does not take so long. So what are the main reasons that instead of actually using the system, players are running around in circles like this and using quick swing that deliver little power, thus drawing out combat?

1) The main reason you are not parrying or dodging seems that swing are too fast. How much slower should they be? (2x, or more?)
2) Parrying can be held and you can switch between a held swing and a held parry. Have you tried this? If so, what is the problem with it that it's not being used?
3) Held swings (charged attacks) are not always cancelled when you are hit. Please test this. There is a 50% base chase that the held swing will be cancelled. If they are being cancelled too much when you have high skills I will adjust this. A high skilled attacker should not have his held swings cancelled.
4) Do rear attacks increase damage by too much? Is this why you are constantly circling each other?
5) Am I missing something else? What other reasons are causing players to fight like this rather than use the system as designed?

To me this looks like a matter of tweaking variables so that players use the system that we've spent so much time implementing. Once that has been achieved we will work on special attacks and defenses.

Thanks again.

PS: This thread will be moved to our Feedback section.


Roth does have higher HP than new players yes, but I'm looking at what the game should be balanced for and I would guess it would be someone close to his skill level, which is less than mine but much higher than a new player correct?

Sorry, I was wrong about our stats, but as you are. You need to use the boosted stats and not the stats of base. Unless of course boosted stats have no effect, then I will be wrong. During the fight they were more than 22 points away, also even at 22 points that's a pretty good chunk of AGI diff, and movement speeds are still pretty close.
I'm not saying this is a major issue, just pointing it out, I believe later you will find that this will be a problem as it will force everyone to have high AGI. That are in any types of combat, because movement is a MAJOR factor in combat, both for attacker and prey.

I just did MORE testing, and armor has ZERO effect in game. Back shots, front shots, fully charged attacks, fast attacks. Armor plays NO FACTOR, clearly something is broke there.

While testing the armor, I also tested the damage. Fast attack with preorder is 181% damage while fully charged vs a fast attack (that's 81% more damage).
Charged attack on back vs fast attack on the back was 184% (84% more damage)

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/MrDDT/Xsyon/XsyonChargedamage.png

I tested this 50+ times with the same damage, no matter what armor or where I was hitting the target other than back or front.

First number is fast back attack.
Second number is full charged back attack.
Third number is fast attack on front.
Fourth number is full charged attack on front.

I would say about 2.5x slower for attack speeds.
With charged attacks doing 5x or more damage at around 2.5 seconds to fully charge.
Also with fast attacks they give around 40% power (Right now) of the attack while a charge takes about 2 seconds to charge yet only gives 100% power, if you were to charge for 1 seconds you would get 50%, while a fast attack needs 0 charge for the same amount of charge bonus.
I think the charge timer should be a bonus to damage and not a multiplier.

So say if I do a fast attack, with str, base damage, skill damage, minus out armor / dodge/parry %, I do 10 damage.
If i do a 1 second charge, I would do 22 damage, if I do a 2.5 second charge I would do 50 damage.

I like that held attacks are canceled when hit, however, I think it should be a special hit and not just any hit. Meaning you choose to toss an attack that cancels someone else's attack not just random change per attack, these should be very fast attacks, that do little damage.

Rear attacks are perfect, and that is why people circle each other. I dont see this changing unless you remove back attacks. It also does 2 things while circling the target, it forces them to miss you (if you are not in front of them, they cant attack you) and also opens up for extra damage for back attacks.

The major reasons are that there is no loss to NOT parry, meaning if someone is parrying me. Why would I stop attacking? Why would I change up the non stop attacks being shot at this guy? I dont lose stamina, I'm not hurting myself. I might get lucky and the guy mess up a parry or dodge, or slip it by and get a back attack.
Add in stamina per attack, so people are not spam clicking. Charged attacks should be the best choice for DPS, but not really for tactics. Meaning, good players wont want to charge because they will be fighting people that can parry and dodge well, and also throw in "disrupting" attacks that cancel out charges.

However, using a charged up attack at the right time will yield great damage, so back attacks with full charge would be very very painful, few hits of those and down you go, so you wont want to open your back up.
Faster weapons also will charge up faster, so you will have to balance this out with testing of combat.

I agree we are in the tweaking area now, and not just "Broken" combat, so that's a good thing.

Desync is still an issue. Him getting back shots while I'm getting back shots at the same time means there is a desync, and needs to be looked at. Slowing down the attack will help this also.



After more testing, I found that skill has no effect on damage (at least with preorder weapons, which is a weapon I can test and know they are not worn and are perfectly the same damage)

STR does.

Derek
09-16-2011, 08:46 PM
If swings had a back swing animation then it would make the timing much better and give players a chance to detect where the next swing is coming from. Try slowing the swing speed down to maybe 110% of what it is now but not much slower or it will feel sluggish. Then add a transition animation to bring the weapon back to ready position which takes the same time that the attack swing takes or maybe slightly slower. This will give the illusion of momentum while also stopping weapon spam. It will have the added benefit of giving the player time to detect where the next swing is coming from so that a well timed parry can be placed.

Also please make the parry button bindable to any button. I really want to bind it to right mouse.

edit: actually with the back swing animation added this will effectively double the time it takes for the attack to complete so maybe the swing speed is fine without adjustment.

MrDDT
09-16-2011, 11:14 PM
Totally my opinion here, so bear that in mind.

People appear to be fighting FPS style, ie. running around like chickens with thier heads cut off so that the other person can't hit them and looking for an opening to strike. I'm suprised they aren't doing the annoying constant jumping made popular in Quake.

Super speedy combat is not really possible in an MMO where the server has to keep track of (in some cases literally) a billion other things while also trying to keep two opposing character positions and actions synched up. Things are happening here so fast that there is no way to ever get rid of the desynch; even if its not a true technical desynch where the server is actually skipping updating your position/status, but simply a visual desynch due to client side prediction. The situation might be better once multiple servers/CPUs are load balancing different aspects of the game. Even the M&B video up there looks a bit out of sync. Notice how many times the spear/polearm people swing when they are obviously out of range...on their screen they probaby see the person recording as actually being in range (or they just totally suck and don't have any feel for their weapon choice, LOL)

1. Movement speed in combat needs to be cut a good bit still. Jittering around all over the place doesn't look like any SCA battle I've ever seen. The M&B video above shows a good speed. I can actually track what is going on and its not just a blur of flesh colored blobs strafing in a circle spamming attack.

2. Swings and dodge/parry need to be slowed down or have some sort of recovery animation. When you swing a big-ass axe, once you are at the end of the swing arc the axe doesn't snap back into ready position instantly. Maybe some more balancing needs to be done on weapon swing speeds as well?

3. Weapon ranges need to match their visual representation in game. "Eh, close enough" just isn't going to cut it in the minds of most. I shouldn't be able to hit someone 2 meters away with a dagger on an overhand swing (unless its some kind of special lunge attack), nor should I have to get inside 1m to hit with a spear or long handled axe (again, unless its some sort of special attack where you strike with the butt end of the shaft for a stun effect or similar). The distance you can hit from should be discernable just by looking at your weapon's reach, not after 100s of swings to determine where the magic invisible hit-boxes actually are.

4. I'm not sure how to handle those of us who got a whole hell of a lot of levels (and thus HP) via maxing out multiple craft schools. If HP is further adjusted via combat skills, then those who mostly craft won't have a chance to defend themselves. Normally that would be logical, but in a game where we pay to be entertained rather than harrassed, it just won't fly. For that reason I do like long combat. It gives those who want to try to run a chance to run instead of the old system where someone who specialized in combat could one shot you with a preorder axe. Those who enjoy fighting can stick around and fight.

5. Energy consumption needs to be tied to weapon type (or individual weapon stats) and skills and stats. You should be able to flick a dagger around quickly and you would tire slowly, but each hit would do relatively little damage. A big axe, however would be much slower, consume more energy, and do significantly more damage.

6. Weapons (and armor) need a bit more individualism both as archetypes as well as each individual weapon. Daggers as a group might have a higher chance to crit, while axes have a higher crit mod (they don't crit more, just harder when they do). Individual weapons within the groups would have their own distinquishing characteristics, be it faster swing but less damage or higher crit chance but slow speed, etc. The only caveat to this is the time it would take to balance all this junk.

7. Please add the joypad code for the horseman lance attack *grin*

*edit to add*
What would people think if parry was reactive within a small forward arc? Meaning if a swing came within the effective protective arc, you would parry the attack. I believe right now you have to pretty much time your parry so that it hits their weapon for it to count.



Drevar, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but right now the basics are not even being worked out right. Basics being, skill isnt even effected in combat, armor isnt being used. Basic stuff like that.

Once those things are in, I believe more balancing can be done, but right now who the flip knows what is going on.

Weapon ranges are totally jacked, but so are the hit boxes and desync. Once the hitboxes and desync is working right then you can start balancing the weapon types, you cant do it all at once or it will just be a huge mess of like we have now, its clear to me that the testing team is barely even testing anything before giving it the "OK".

I'm all for longer combat, but it shouldnt be longer because you are getting hit for 2 damage and you have 1000 HP right? It should be longer combat, because you are good at parry, dodge, jooking people, and using good armor, and you are leveled up.
Right now without knowing who has what HP, with what regen, I cant balance crap. I can clearly see its WAY out of wack, but that's about it.

This combat is really boring and needs a LOT of work, but really they should just start with all weapons with the same attack speed, with the same damage, and the same range until other things are working right.
Once dodge parry are working, as are hitboxes and how long a fight lasts on the basic levels. Then start worrying about balancing armor, stats on weapons, and things like that. That's just me. So many factors are unknown and really just jacked up, how can anyone truly test it? Even the testing team doesnt have the tool to test this crap.

I do like where combat is going, I have hope for it, its not going to be done overnight. But mashing it all together and trying to get them all to work at the same time isnt the answer, you need to start simple and add to it.

Biggest keys to me is, attack speed, combat speed (movement), parry, dodge and basic length of a all out beat down.

Length of 2 people just full on DPSing each other shouldnt last long at all when naked. Seconds. Like 10 to 20 seconds. Not 3+ mins.
Once you add in good play, with jooking, parry, dodge, armor, etc, that 10 to 20 seconds could go on for 10+ mins for all I care, when there is an even match up.
Naked players getting beat with Master QL, weapons high STR (which is where ALL the combat damage is coming from Weapon + STR), high skills (currently not being figured) normal HP taking 3+ mins. Way to long way way to long, because when good people play they will never kill each other and both give up and just walk away.

VeryWiiTee
09-17-2011, 07:39 AM
I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

Other than that I'd have to agree..

Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
Swing times are still too fast.
Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.

krimara
09-17-2011, 10:36 AM
Unless they changed it, weapon skill decreases the amount of damage resistance armor provides for your target, so I'm guessing here that your combat skills are high, and unless they are wearing heavy armor (not just a piece or two all 15) there isn't going to be a difference.

Better Quality last I seen was a minimal increase in damage (some weapons going from 2.3 to 2.5)

Combat in general is still to fast, swing speed and movement speed.

Hodo
09-17-2011, 11:32 AM
I would love to see some changes to the combat system.

Not completely to the M&B:Warband combat, as that would be not great for PvP in a MMORPG. But something close to the original Roma Victor with modifications.

I will come right out and say I hate the "hit point bubble".

I suggest having attributes become your hit points. If you get hit in the arms, you take damage to your strength, legs agility, chest stamina, head intelligence. I am sure he( the developer) remembers the exact combat damage system in RV.

With the current movement system and a few tweaks to the armour and weapons the combat could be GREAT.

Then he can get started on adding agriculture, and ranged weapons, bows, cross bows, throwing spears, hell spears in general.

MrDDT
09-17-2011, 12:03 PM
I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

Other than that I'd have to agree..

Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
Swing times are still too fast.
Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.



I'm still more than willing to test combat with you, please contact me in game. I've asked this a few times.

I cant get combat to NOT last 2 or 3 mins unless its ONLY backshots (charged attacks are worse for DPS just FYI).

NorCalGooey
09-17-2011, 02:05 PM
I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

Other than that I'd have to agree..

Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
Swing times are still too fast.
Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.

You think 10-20 seconds of pure dps is a gank? Wow.

You did describe a gank accurately, that just wasn't it. You sweep in deliver a few blows and see the other dead in seconds.

A few blows and dead before the person has to do anything is a gank. Not 20 blows with full charge.

Xsyon
09-17-2011, 02:29 PM
Thanks for all the detailed feedback.

The current live build does have a major problem. We were running some tests in the code when we had to rush out the last quick patch and the test code was not removed. This test has the attacker's skill fixed at 50 and the defender's armor set to full bone armor (normal quality, full duration).

We can't patch the live server until we're done our current changes to the database.

So what we're going to do is:

1) Remove the test code that was affecting the skill and armor functions (done).
2) Revise combat variables today and tomorrow based on all the feedback given here (in progress).
3) Ask that all players hold more feedback until we're ready to test combat again on the test server.
4) Hold a combat test session on the test server when these changes are ready.
5) Patch the changes to the live as soon as they are satisfactory and our database code is ready.

Thanks again and please hold off on more combat comments until the next round of revisions are ready.

MrDDT
09-17-2011, 03:11 PM
Good deal.

Thanks for the update Xsyon.

VeryWiiTee
09-17-2011, 06:05 PM
that explains a lot actually :).