Give the game Meaning.

[VeryWiiTee]

I'm sure a lot of you agree that sometimes the game might feel a bit, pointless and a lot of people, including myself throw the word 'meaning' around quite a lot.
What I propse is that we, which means primarily you guys as I'll sit back in the first round, should give our own interpretation of what more meaning is.

There are, as I see it a few major categories.

Combat (PvP)
Crafting
Building
Gathering (Items in general)
Trade

An example could go as follow


VeryWiiTee writes:
Since I like crafting and combat I'll come with my interpretation of meaning regarding those two subjects:

Crafting:
More meaning means;
- Much less 'I can do anything myself'
- More dependency on other crafts
- etc
- etc
- A more aggressive skill and item decay

Combat:
More meaning means;
- More tactic in combat
- More animals to combat
- Rare found only loot.

Keep it simple so that the Dev's can easily read it and collect general opinions, keep it free of argue (it's not the point of this.. exercise ;).) and be nice to each other.

[MrDDT]

I would like to see the tools to want to trade, and force more trading.

1)Combat (Not just PVP, but mostly PVE) why do any combat at all? Lets see reasons to take a resource area and claim it and hold it from zombie attacks or players trying to loot it. Lets see animals that you will run from unless you are a combat type of player, geared up and/or with a group of people.
2)Trade. Every item in this game is so easy to get solo, trade is almost worthless. I can make all my own stuff, I can gather very easy to make these items, and I dont really care if I have high end gear or not. The bonuses on these items dont make it worth while to use VHQ/MASTER/SUPREME items vs just using HIGH QL items. Give me reasons to travel to someones place to trade something they need, and they have something I want. Resources are way to common, not really any rare resources. Any rare resources there are people hold onto like a vice-grip because they are going to use it themselves.
3)Faster ways to travel. Right now we cant haul things, we are way to heavy all the time, resting all the time, and the world is just not fun to move around in. Give us some better ways to regen stamina, better ways to move faster, and haul things.
Buffs for speed boosts maybe from food, or spells. Buffs for stamina regen maybe from food, spells, or clothing.
4)Where is the survival? No one is scared to die, heck many people kill themselves for a free ride home. Where is the worry or need to build shelter? or stay in a home? Where is the need or want to wear clothing? Where is the need or want to be protected from wondering animals or crazy players?
5)Make crafting way more fun. The resources should be much harder, but allow people to craft batches of items instead of click wait 5seconds, click click click, wait 5 seconds. Over and over and over and over and over again. Try building rock walls for a 10m radius totem. That's all I ask you to do.

[Naux]

My version of "meaning" is playing an open world game with my brothers while we run around and screw off, build a base with walls and conduct random raids in to different areas but all in all enjoy the video game we are playing. Plus if one of us ever gets bored and stops for a month or two the game doesn't come to a screeching halt...even if there is only 1 of us we can keep playing which means a lot.

I do have to say that everything you guys are asking for is already in motion or will be optimized once new items are included...maybe not the complex crafting but there are plenty of people who like the current craft system.

[Kazkid]

I agree with about everything DDT stated.

However, I dont agree with skill decay.

Take for instance that I grind all the way to 100 in Architecture. I only have limited space to build upon and once that space is used up and looks exactly as I want it with currently available structures, HOW am I then going to continue using it to prevent decay? I earned that skill!

I would much rather see a cap on total skill points which could be used. This I think would accomplish several things. Firstly trade would be of value, secondly PVP 'could' be worthwhile. If I cant make something I need, Ill either HAVE to trade for it or kill a person who can!

Furthering this I believe there should be an option to determine which skills I want to raise and lower. For instance, I tried leathercrafting, decided it wasnt for me and Im capped, I should be able to turn it to a decay option where every point I gain in a 'new' skill would take one away from leathercrafting.

I also disagree with some proposed 'or asked for' PVP options. I DO NOT think my homestead should be attackable unless I choose it to be so. HOWEVER, I DO think IF I were to put out a expansion (term may be incorrect) totem and create then an 'outpost' that the outpost SHOULD be attackable. If it comes to pass that EVERY totem can be conquored we all know there are crass asses that will do so to every homestead they see just to be crass asses! This problem would drive even more new players from the game who were unable to defend a homestead VS even a Tribe of 5!

Wanna be a fighter. GREAT! Every fighting skill takes points from the available 500 (random number) or so allowed. This would require those diehard PVP players to trade for needed equipment to support their chosen gameplay and add value to the crafters goods. How could they not still support their gameplay solo? Well lets list skills. A weapon, Type of combat (armed unarmed ect), Dodge, Parry. there are 4! Now add weaponcrafting, it requires scavenging and foraging, and sometimes hunting, that makes 7! Gotta eat so either fishing or foraging! There is 8! They need armors (when they are working) and their supporting skills (ie hunting, bonecraft) Up to 11! Still havent taken into account taming and riding skills if mounts are ever available! So say we give 600-800 points to spend! FORCING them to rely on others as well. After all, they say we should rely on others to defend us and our totem.

Many will answer this with 'then people will just make alts' well I say good. More income for the company to continue development/hire more devs ect! Not only that every hour they spend on that alt making their equipment is one hour less they are hunting newbies and running them off because we all knwo that most PVP players are NOT looking for an equal fight EVER! Heck add some risk to them. If their skills are at 100 and maxed, they are unable to attack a person with less than 75 in a weapon discipline! This also makes it where the ability to attack that tradeskiller isnt an option and forces them to instead attack like minded players to loot their equipment! That tradeskiller however is still not completely safe since they have to have some fighting skill to defend themselves from the zombies and animals roaming the wilds so ARE still attackable by some level of PVPer! Thus the risk element is still involved for them as well.

[MrDDT]

I agree with about everything DDT stated.

However, I dont agree with skill decay.

Take for instance that I grind all the way to 100 in Architecture. I only have limited space to build upon and once that space is used up and looks exactly as I want it with currently available structures, HOW am I then going to continue using it to prevent decay? I earned that skill!

I would much rather see a cap on total skill points which could be used. This I think would accomplish several things. Firstly trade would be of value, secondly PVP 'could' be worthwhile. If I cant make something I need, Ill either HAVE to trade for it or kill a person who can!

Furthering this I believe there should be an option to determine which skills I want to raise and lower. For instance, I tried leathercrafting, decided it wasnt for me and Im capped, I should be able to turn it to a decay option where every point I gain in a 'new' skill would take one away from leathercrafting.

I also disagree with some proposed 'or asked for' PVP options. I DO NOT think my homestead should be attackable unless I choose it to be so. HOWEVER, I DO think IF I were to put out a expansion (term may be incorrect) totem and create then an 'outpost' that the outpost SHOULD be attackable. If it comes to pass that EVERY totem can be conquored we all know there are crass asses that will do so to every homestead they see just to be crass asses! This problem would drive even more new players from the game who were unable to defend a homestead VS even a Tribe of 5!

Wanna be a fighter. GREAT! Every fighting skill takes points from the available 500 (random number) or so allowed. This would require those diehard PVP players to trade for needed equipment to support their chosen gameplay and add value to the crafters goods. How could they not still support their gameplay solo? Well lets list skills. A weapon, Type of combat (armed unarmed ect), Dodge, Parry. there are 4! Now add weaponcrafting, it requires scavenging and foraging, and sometimes hunting, that makes 7! Gotta eat so either fishing or foraging! There is 8! They need armors (when they are working) and their supporting skills (ie hunting, bonecraft) Up to 11! So say we give 600-800 points to spend! FORCING them to rely on others as well. After all, they say we should rely on others to defend us and our totem.

Many will answer this with 'then people will just make alts' well I say good. More income for the company to continue development/hire more devs ect! Not only that every hour they spend on that alt making their equipment is one hour less they are hunting newbies and running them off because we all knwo that most PVP players are NOT looking for an equal fight EVER!



You bring up some good points.

For you to keep 100 Architecture, you simply need to keep active in it. You can build for other people, you can change things in your town. If you dont use it, you should lose it over time in my opinion. Someone that wants to be a master Architect isnt going just stop. They are going to keep building.

I believe in a total cap for skills, and they plan on doing it. Its going to be a soft cap though. If you dont know how a soft cap works, its like this.
Say there is a soft cap of 700 points. After that each point you gain takes 2x longer to gain, then after 10 more points it takes 3x, then after 10 more points it takes 4x. etc, so by the time you get to total of 1000 points, its going to take you something like 1000x longer to gain 1 point, than it did to go from 699 to 700.

I disagree with the locking and unlocking of skills. If you want to keep leather-crafting simply used it, other skills will decay. Remember these skills wont just decay from 100 to 90 overnight, it will take time.

I agree with you on ALL totems in the current area should be like they are, I believe these areas are good for training, and for people that want to be safe. My idea of attackable totems are for areas not yet uncovered by the mist. This will allow people the choice of moving to an area that's more dangerous not only because their totems can be attacked, but also maybe mutants like zombies and other animals will be attacking them.
However, to move into these areas you would want to offer a bit of a reward. Maybe better resources of higher avg QL, or maybe more animals, or maybe rare animals that yield better bonuses. Things like that.
I would like to see "Outposts" or expansion totems used to take over key spots on the map for very rare resources that are for the most part only able to be got at these locations. This will give people keep spots to fight over and meet for contested PVP things.

I agree most players should want to trade for their good items, but the way I see it, soft skill cap wont stop you from being a warrior and building your own things, or being a crafter and hunting your own animals. The way I see it, if you dont want to trade with others and be the jack of all trades, then you should be the master of none type of thing. Sure you can make your own armor, but it wont be of master QL or better. You could build your own town but it wont be of the best rocks.
Plus the plan is to have pools, and stack rank them.
Meaning running wouldnt use 100 of your pool points, it might only use 10to1 ratio. While Bonecrafting might use 1to1 ratio.

[Kazkid]

So it is your opinion that those who want a safe area should be limited to what we are told is 1/10th of the map? no way! I also disagree with having to WAIT for something to decay over an extended period of time to learn something new. The 'wont decay from 100-90 overnight' would be the problem with that system.

[MrDDT]

So it is your opinion that those who want a safe area should be limited to what we are told is 1/10th of the map? no way! I also disagree with having to WAIT for something to decay over an extended period of time to learn something new. The 'wont decay from 100-90 overnight' would be the problem with that system.

1) I dont think it should be the only safe areas no. I believe like games like EVE where 75% of the world is free PVP, and 10% is really safe (in Xsyon's case 100% safe), the other 15% should be mixed levels of safety. So yes, I agree that only 1/10th the map should be 100% safe. However, I dont think the starting area should be the only areas that are safe. I believe modeling it like EVE online does is a good idea.

2)Care to explain how its a problem? You just said you disagree, but didnt say why.

[Kazkid]

IF I decide I want to do something else when 'soft capped' the ability to turn a skill's decay on would allow me to do so. Having to wait on a painfully slow decay rate would not allow me to change and learn a new skill in a timely manner. IE as you stated wont loose 10 points overnight. OK so I then dont have even 10 points to gain in the new skill over DAYS of using it even at starting with 5 in it. I agree locking one should not be possible. But the ability to willing loose points in an undesired skill would almost be a must to change a char's direction.

For instance. If you have a crafter and suddenly decide you would like to partake of more PVP action. Should you have to wait MONTHS for those tradeskills to decay before you can raise (again in a timely manner) your combat oriented skills?

[MrDDT]

IF I decide I want to do something else when 'soft capped' the ability to turn a skill's decay on would allow me to do so. Having to wait on a painfully slow decay rate would not allow me to change and learn a new skill in a timely manner. IE as you stated wont loose 10 points overnight. OK so I then dont have even 10 points to gain in the new skill over DAYS of using it even at starting with 5 in it. I agree locking one should not be possible. But the ability to willing loose points in an undesired skill would almost be a must to change a char's direction.

For instance. If you have a crafter and suddenly decide you would like to partake of more PVP action. Should you have to wait MONTHS for those tradeskills to decay before you can raise (again in a timely manner) your combat oriented skills?


I agree, your right. I was talking about overnight of not doing nothing (IE sleeping overnight), if you are actively training skills and not ever touching your leather-crafting, it should drop pretty fast. But what crafter wouldn't work on their main craft every once in a while to keep it active?

[Kazkid]

TY. the ability to turn one to decrease as you gain a point thru use of the new skill would be acceptable I think. IE if tailoring was set to decrease so I could learn leathercrafting it would simply decrease by one every time the new skill being used (leathercrafting) would naturally gain one rather than having to wait however long decay would take to loose that one point in tailoring.

Great conversation OP hope ya didnt see this as an argument. Was far from such imho. Who else has ideas. I hear tons daily discussed in game. lets get em read and discussed both pros and cons.

[MrDDT]

TY. the ability to turn one to decrease as you gain a point thru use of the new skill would be acceptable I think. IE if tailoring was set to decrease so I could learn leathercrafting it would simply decrease by one every time the new skill being used (leathercrafting) would naturally gain one rather than having to wait however long decay would take to loose that one point in tailoring.

Great conversation OP hope ya didnt see this as an argument. Was far from such imho. Who else has ideas. I hear tons daily discussed in game. lets get em read and discussed both pros and cons.


The system you are talking about is like UO has, which I'm not saying wont work, I'm just not seeing the need to lock or unlock them. If you want to keep a skill high or near max, it should be your main focus to keep it there, and with a little effort (using the skill once or twice a day) you can keep it from decaying.

To me it goes more to the point of instead of people having to choose what skills they want, the play style chooses it for them.

[VeryWiiTee]

It's not to argument DDT. It is to share with the Dev's what the fuck people mean when they request more meaning in the game. Juust like the 'More Content!'

Having looked through yours, they're filled with words, not a bad thing, but not quite what I was looking for. Anywho, presented what I think belove.
You can discuss all you want, but don't get into heated fights who's right and who's wrong. None of you are either.

Combat: Meaning
- Need of loot on Mobs (such as Revenants giving items that cannot be crafted)
- Need of more mobs in the game world.
- A better AI of mobs to increase the difficulty of a fight.
- Need a larger variety of in-game mobs such as Mutants and Revenants.
- Need group content mobs.
- Needs more players. (Though that isn't something they can actually code.)
- Need a marksmanship system (it feels hollow without one.)

Crafting:
- Induce an evil soft cap to keep skills down. You would be able to master, ideally, 2-3 crafting skills.
- Stress the differences between having to choose side in crafting. Currently you can have about 50% of all recipes. Too many.
- Stress the differences between EXP gained and recipe levels.
- Create some Master/Artisan items that only people of Master and Artisan skill level -MIGHT- be able to achieve. It should NOT be a certainty. Just because you are a master craftsman does not equate to you being able to create Masterful items.

Gathering: (Items in general).
- Stress the difference on items. Common, Uncommon, Rare.
- Create rare resource tiles that appear in random places (but appropriate places - like Sea weed is an enhanced grass type, but only grows near rivers and lakes, during the summer.)

Generally:
- A more aggressive soft cap. (Would improve quite a lot).
- Make people have to choose, not necessarily at beginning, but from playstyle and what they do: Gatherer type, Crafter Type, Warrior Type. Skills and stats should follow promptly. There shouldn't be the possibility of owning all three spheres at the same time.
- Promote trade through carts, wagons and similar as well as a more aggressive soft cap would lead to more trade due to less 'I'm a GOD." In capital.

My idea of a soft cap is that the more skills you have up in the high-end, the faster your skills will deteriorate. If you want to be good at a lot of things, it would require you to play a lot, thus rewarding you according to your time put into it. (I'm very fond of rewards vs time spent. No way should people that doesn't play a lot be able to be just as good as the guy that spends 16hrs a day playing. None of that World of Warcraft crap in this game.)

[MrDDT]

Great thread and post and still waiting for these things in game.

[znaiika]

VeryWiiTee.
All true.
We could have more people, but something needs to be sacrificial, like loot or FFA PVP or both, you know well noobs will rage-quit once something like this happens.
I understand your passion about PVP and loot but not many people are that way.

[MrDDT]

VeryWiiTee.
All true.
We could have more people, but something needs to be sacrificial, like loot or FFA PVP or both, you know well noobs will rage-quit once something like this happens.
I understand your passion about PVP and loot but not many people are that way.


That's your opinion but really not a fact. I believe the FFA PVP or Looting issues isnt the problem here. Removing the PVP or the Looting doesnt give the game meaning, in fact it would give the game less meaning.

[znaiika]

That's your opinion but really not a fact. I believe the FFA PVP or Looting issues isnt the problem here. Removing the PVP or the Looting doesnt give the game meaning, in fact it would give the game less meaning.

It depends on what meaning you are talking about.
To have more people playing? or to have just people who interested in PVP? mainly.

[MrDDT]

It depends on what meaning you are talking about.
To have more people playing? or to have just people who interested in PVP? mainly.


Removing PVP doesnt give the game meaning, that's a fact. Do you disagree with this fact?

[znaiika]

Removing PVP doesnt give the game meaning, that's a fact. Do you disagree with this fact?

I did not say remove PVP.

[MrDDT]

I did not say remove PVP.

1) I didnt say you did.
2) You didnt answer my question.
3) What are you talking about here?
We could have more people, but something needs to be sacrificial, like loot or FFA PVP or both, you know well noobs will rage-quit once something like this happens.
I understand your passion about PVP and loot but not many people are that way.

[inhabit]

VeryWiiTee.
All true.
We could have more people, but something needs to be sacrificial, like loot or FFA PVP or both, you know well noobs will rage-quit once something like this happens.
I understand your passion about PVP and loot but not many people are that way.

znaiika from most of your posts ive see over the last few weeks, it comes across to me (others may differ in opinion) that you are caught up in a thinking that this game will have more players and player retention rate will be higher if there is no looting/FFA PvP at that this for you is the main big issue.

I on the other hand (while playing over the last 1+ year) see looting/FFA PvP as a very small problem at this time and is not one of the many core issues which need to be resolved to keep the newer player base active and make this an enjoyable purposful long term experience. The previous posts all have very good points which should be addressed by the devs which i believe would help achieve this to start with.

Regarding looting/FFA PvP, if a player is say a month or so old or more and you leave a cart or a basket outside your totem safe zone with important stuff in it they are idiots in my opinion and deserve to get it stolen ;P
If on the other hand it is a new player who doesnt quite understand how basket permissions work and how people can totem drop etc then this is unfortunate, but learn from your mistake and move on, even ask in global who took your stuff some people may even give a new player it back.

Remember this is a game of survival, and this is the only risk this game has at the moment until they add more content so dont leave your shit lying around, and dont go out in your best gear if you are gonna cry and quit game if you lose it. Scavenging in enemy territory wouldnt be the same if this risk wasnt there

[thunXa]

It's not to argument DDT. It is to share with the Dev's what the fuck people mean when they request more meaning in the game. Juust like the 'More Content!'

Having looked through yours, they're filled with words, not a bad thing, but not quite what I was looking for. Anywho, presented what I think belove.
You can discuss all you want, but don't get into heated fights who's right and who's wrong. None of you are either.

Combat: Meaning
- Need of loot on Mobs (such as Revenants giving items that cannot be crafted)
- Need of more mobs in the game world.
- A better AI of mobs to increase the difficulty of a fight.
- Need a larger variety of in-game mobs such as Mutants and Revenants.
- Need group content mobs.
- Needs more players. (Though that isn't something they can actually code.)
- Need a marksmanship system (it feels hollow without one.)

Crafting:
- Induce an evil soft cap to keep skills down. You would be able to master, ideally, 2-3 crafting skills.
- Stress the differences between having to choose side in crafting. Currently you can have about 50% of all recipes. Too many.
- Stress the differences between EXP gained and recipe levels.
- Create some Master/Artisan items that only people of Master and Artisan skill level -MIGHT- be able to achieve. It should NOT be a certainty. Just because you are a master craftsman does not equate to you being able to create Masterful items.

Gathering: (Items in general).
- Stress the difference on items. Common, Uncommon, Rare.
- Create rare resource tiles that appear in random places (but appropriate places - like Sea weed is an enhanced grass type, but only grows near rivers and lakes, during the summer.)

Generally:
- A more aggressive soft cap. (Would improve quite a lot).
- Make people have to choose, not necessarily at beginning, but from playstyle and what they do: Gatherer type, Crafter Type, Warrior Type. Skills and stats should follow promptly. There shouldn't be the possibility of owning all three spheres at the same time.
- Promote trade through carts, wagons and similar as well as a more aggressive soft cap would lead to more trade due to less 'I'm a GOD." In capital.

My idea of a soft cap is that the more skills you have up in the high-end, the faster your skills will deteriorate. If you want to be good at a lot of things, it would require you to play a lot, thus rewarding you according to your time put into it. (I'm very fond of rewards vs time spent. No way should people that doesn't play a lot be able to be just as good as the guy that spends 16hrs a day playing. None of that World of Warcraft crap in this game.)




nice, but i disaggree with all those crafting and classes.
This would take all the unique'ness this game has.
Also items is good now, unique. but they must be spread up better into parts of the map

[tomduril]

Some of "my" stuff was stolen by a totem drop ... however I learned something - thats more worth then all the stuff that has been taken from me. Also learned something about carts in the process - so for me it was a very valuable lesson - priceless even :P


In Xsyon language:
You can take my fish - but the skill points I got during fishing - those are mine :P

[inhabit]

In Xsyon language:
You can take my fish - but the skill points I got during fishing - those are mine :P

LMAO, good attitude to have mate ;)

[unclean666]

Well thunxa i agree with verywiitee on the crafting maybe not 100% BUT somewhere along those lines.One of the biggest problems that keep showing its head in many different ways is that you can do any and everything all at high end.Thats one of the reasons no one needs anything or even needs a tribe for that matter.

[Dzarren]

for those that want to limited skill point and learnable crafts go play Mortal Online :mad:
I played that game and it drove me crazy the limits and i had 3 chars and still drove me crazy.
Its one of the reasons i left the game and i really loved the crafting in there way better then xsyons.
So please let Xsyon be Xsyon i for one would leave if they limited my skill point and learnable crafts any further.
I would love some meaning but there are better ways to do that.
Possibilities enough make land claimable for example, create rare resources, alliances who fight for control over zones for tax purposes, also trade can be good but you need better ways of transport for that.
so dont give meaning to the game by limiting but by expanding and adding.
Keep an open mind for other ways and use these to improve the game.

[znaiika]

znaiika from most of your posts ive see over the last few weeks, it comes across to me (others may differ in opinion) that you are caught up in a thinking that this game will have more players and player retention rate will be higher if there is no looting/FFA PvP at that this for you is the main big issue.

I on the other hand (while playing over the last 1+ year) see looting/FFA PvP as a very small problem at this time and is not one of the many core issues which need to be resolved to keep the newer player base active and make this an enjoyable purposful long term experience. The previous posts all have very good points which should be addressed by the devs which i believe would help achieve this to start with.

Regarding looting/FFA PvP, if a player is say a month or so old or more and you leave a cart or a basket outside your totem safe zone with important stuff in it they are idiots in my opinion and deserve to get it stolen ;P
If on the other hand it is a new player who doesnt quite understand how basket permissions work and how people can totem drop etc then this is unfortunate, but learn from your mistake and move on, even ask in global who took your stuff some people may even give a new player it back.

Remember this is a game of survival, and this is the only risk this game has at the moment until they add more content so dont leave your shit lying around, and dont go out in your best gear if you are gonna cry and quit game if you lose it. Scavenging in enemy territory wouldnt be the same if this risk wasnt there

I hope you all correct, that will be proven in the future though. If Xsion close its doors in the future? don't blame it on bugs or game was not ready for people to like it, like those other sandbox games that are shutdown, it all comes to majority of people who support the game, if you don't have enough people? game will shutdown.
It will be sad to see Xsion shutdown due to low population.
You can make everything right if you put PVP, full loot, PVE, etc.etc.etc. in the right place to function, otherwise it is going to be a mess and a lot of rage quits.
I am not trying to remove the fun of this game, you have to see that, like the other day, one player rage quit when he heard about totem drop and override permissions, and many did because of full loot, many did because of unjust PVP, many did because of difference in opinions, many did because of griefs, I can go on and on and on......

I agree with Dzarren, you people should have open mind.
You can improve PVP to work for all and eliminate ways to grief.

[aliksteel]

for those that want to limited skill point and learnable crafts go play Mortal Online :mad:
I played that game and it drove me crazy the limits and i had 3 chars and still drove me crazy.
Its one of the reasons i left the game and i really loved the crafting in there way better then xsyons.
So please let Xsyon be Xsyon i for one would leave if they limited my skill point and learnable crafts any further.
I would love some meaning but there are better ways to do that.
Possibilities enough make land claimable for example, create rare resources, alliances who fight for control over zones for tax purposes, also trade can be good but you need better ways of transport for that.
so dont give meaning to the game by limiting but by expanding and adding.
Keep an open mind for other ways and use these to improve the game.

So please let Xsyon be Xsyon i for one would leave if they limited my skill point and learnable crafts any further.
Umm how is it limited at all right now? I understand you don't want them to start bashing it over the head with a nerf bat, But anyone in the game can learn and master anything that is in the game without any limitations right now. The only thing that stands in your way right now is time and hunting for the recipes, And thats not realy limiting(IMO).

You also talk about trade being one way to help, And there is some trade happening. One reason there is not a lot more(IMO) is that anyone that is willing to put the time in can make anything they want or need. There is NO NEED TO TRADE right now(Once again IMO), Othere than to save some time. There is no limitations to anyone, And I do think that is a big problem.

The claimable land, rare resources, alliances and fight for control over claimed land is in the works(or said to be).

I think you need to also "Keep an open mind" as well, Not all nerfing is bad.

Added after 9 minutes:

Dang it znaiika, I was trying my best not to reply to any thing more from you. But DAMN IT!!! You tell people to keep an open mind and yet you don't at all. It's your way or you cry that we don't listen or we are going to kill the game. I'm no PVP player, But even I can see that without everything that you want gone or have a harsh nerf bat taken to. Is whats going to make Xsyon such a fun game to play. Your way later to the dining table, And the food has are ready being served. So you can sit down and start trying to work with what we have, or go to bed hungry.

I'm not saying not to have opinions, But you keep wanting to change the core of the game.

[znaiika]

I'm not saying not to have opinions, But you keep wanting to change the core of the game.


Where did I say I want? I say people should have open mind to all possibilities and make Xsion playable for all people.
Don't get stuck on what I want or don't, think of the way for all people to be able to play Xsion, not just few.

[thunXa]

Well thunxa i agree with verywiitee on the crafting maybe not 100% BUT somewhere along those lines.One of the biggest problems that keep showing its head in many different ways is that you can do any and everything all at high end.Thats one of the reasons no one needs anything or even needs a tribe for that matter.

If they splitt the items needed over the map it should be fine. With more Population and dead penalty it will be very hard to keep making all items perfectly and even more getting those items alone.

[unclean666]

Not really and I dont understand why people woukd want to craft the best of the best in all crafts.The only thing that does is kill trade and makes you useless because that guy can do the same and so can that one over there so anything you make is useless to everyone but YOURSELF.I want people to need or want my weapons and i want to need your master/supreme leather straps or twine to make some of them.Im not saying that everyone cant some twine but everyone shouldent be able to make supreme twine....whats the whole point then?

[MrDDT]

for those that want to limited skill point and learnable crafts go play Mortal Online :mad:
I played that game and it drove me crazy the limits and i had 3 chars and still drove me crazy.
Its one of the reasons i left the game and i really loved the crafting in there way better then xsyons.
So please let Xsyon be Xsyon i for one would leave if they limited my skill point and learnable crafts any further.
I would love some meaning but there are better ways to do that.
Possibilities enough make land claimable for example, create rare resources, alliances who fight for control over zones for tax purposes, also trade can be good but you need better ways of transport for that.
so dont give meaning to the game by limiting but by expanding and adding.
Keep an open mind for other ways and use these to improve the game.


Dzarren you know they plan on putting in skill soft caps with pools right? So you plan on quitting because of this? Its been said dozens of times before.


I hope you all correct, that will be proven in the future though. If Xsion close its doors in the future? don't blame it on bugs or game was not ready for people to like it, like those other sandbox games that are shutdown, it all comes to majority of people who support the game, if you don't have enough people? game will shutdown.
It will be sad to see Xsion shutdown due to low population.
You can make everything right if you put PVP, full loot, PVE, etc.etc.etc. in the right place to function, otherwise it is going to be a mess and a lot of rage quits.
I am not trying to remove the fun of this game, you have to see that, like the other day, one player rage quit when he heard about totem drop and override permissions, and many did because of full loot, many did because of unjust PVP, many did because of difference in opinions, many did because of griefs, I can go on and on and on......

I agree with Dzarren, you people should have open mind.
You can improve PVP to work for all and eliminate ways to grief.


Many left because combat isnt working. Many left because of lag. Many left because of desycn in combat. Many left because of no animals to fight. Many left because weapons and armor have little effect on the game. Many left because there is no where to contest things over. Many left because there is no real reason to fight. Many left because there is no death penalties. Many left because looting was broken.

Wow 1 player left because they didnt understand how the 100% protected totems worked and that they couldnt have a basket outside their tribe lands? What about the 1000s of people that quit because combat is and was broken?

You still havnt answered my question, yet you keep talking about it.

Removing PVP, doesnt have anything to do with adding meaning to the game correct?

[znaiika]

""Additional reasons you brought up, to the once I mentioned about.""

You still havnt answered my question, yet you keep talking about it.

Removing PVP, doesnt have anything to do with adding meaning to the game correct?

I did not say remove PVP, I said "improve PVP" so then everyone, PVP oriented or not could play in Xsion and will eliminate griefs.

[MrDDT]

I did not say remove PVP, I said "improve PVP" so then everyone, PVP oriented or not could play in Xsion and will eliminate griefs.

Is it that hard to answer a question?

"Removing PVP, doesnt have anything to do with adding meaning to the game correct?"

Please answer it.

[Creator]

Giving the game meaning...

Utility. So many things in this game, some of them with absolutely no purpose.

When I login to this game I do 3 things, I scavenge, I fish, I socialize with other players.

I have no desire to build a city.
I have no desire to become a pvp overlord.
I have no desire to craft thousands of weapons.
I have no desire to waste my time making thousands of tools.

I like to treasure hunt, I would like to bow hunt, fish, forage... to be a hunter / gatherer. I want my skills to be needed. Yet no one needs me, no one needs you. We don't need each other.
This has become a online single player, with a group chat. I want to need you, I want you to need me, I want people to need each other, else we should all go play skyrim, or call of duty.

I have only 65/100 skill in fishing, yet I have more fish than I can eat in 3 months. No one wants my fish, they can just do it themselves, my fish are useless.
I have 100 scavenging, unless I loot a handful of blueprints, a saw blade. No one wants my salvage, they can do it themselves, my salvage is useless. You also have nothing I need.

I have a building, which I worked together with a community to make, it is terrific, and it was great to work with everyone to make it. It is cosmetically terrific.
It keeps the rain off me, but the rain doesn't hurt me, it isn't even acid or nuclear rain. I know comfort is supposed be part of the game someday.

I cannot starve, I cannot thirst to death. I really cannot die. I have to look for a long time for an animal, and I have to stand there for it to kill me. I would have
to make someone upset or offend them in order for them to want to kill me, if I can do that before they would find it easier to abuse report me or talk badly
about me before taking the effort to kill me for no penalty.

This game has no fear, it has no penalty, there is no limitation, some days I flap my avatars arms just to make sure flying hasn't been implemented for
those complaining it takes to long to travel across the map.

My skills, your skills, everyone's skills are useless cause nothing I have you don't have, you have that I don't have.

I don't want more content, I want more functionality. I want more fear, challenge, I want to die a lot, I want it to be hard as hell. I want risk, I want a blood rush.
I don't wear armour cause armour is never used. I don't carry a weapon cause I don't need to defend myself.

I carry a bask, run around naked, with a water skin and a fishing pole. nothing else matters, cause all else is pointless material to heavy to carry around.

[Willowhawk]

Giving the game meaning...I don't want more content, I want more functionality. I want more fear, challenge, I want to die a lot, I want it to be hard as hell. I want risk, I want a blood rush.

I agree with everything you wrote. (I just captioned to save paper) :p

[znaiika]

Is it that hard to answer a question?

"Removing PVP, doesnt have anything to do with adding meaning to the game correct?"

Please answer it.

How many meanings are we talking about? PVP is one of them and I am only saying that improve PVP to make possible for all kind of play styles to play in Xsion.
How many players are actually active at this point? and still I see all the time people trading, what would happen if 300 - 500 - 1000 people where playing?
Don't expect little number of people to do major trading, not possible.
Also easier way to travel.
""WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN GAME TO HAVE ALL THOSE INTERACTIONS AND TRADING GOING ON"".
You have to accept those who don't like PVP those who do those who like solo and so on.

[MrDDT]

How many meanings are we talking about? PVP is one of them and I am only saying that improve PVP to make possible for all kind of play styles to play in Xsion.
How many players are actually active at this point? and still I see all the time people trading, what would happen if 300 - 500 - 1000 people where playing?
Don't expect little number of people to do major trading, not possible.
Also easier way to travel.
""WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN GAME TO HAVE ALL THOSE INTERACTIONS AND TRADING GOING ON"".
You have to accept those who don't like PVP those who do those who like solo and so on.


So pretty much you wont answer the question. Gotcha. Please stop talking about PVP until you can answer simple questions. No way to get down to the facts of the problem when you cant debate a topic.

About trade in this game. Well trade is in a sad shape when you have trade events where less than 5 people show up for it. I know you say "I see all the time people trade" but really I would be you dont see it much at all you just think you see it. Someone posting in /y chat 100 times a day asking for something doesnt = seeing it all the time to me. Its just someone spamming chat for an item.

[Creator]

Also easier way to travel.


What is so hard about traveling now? I get to my destination just fine... may take a while, but nothing difficult about it.

wanted to correct this. a bit. we need to be able to do half decent roads. I find weight and tiring out so quickly to be the problem. But there is no real advantage to even using the roads. Ah and terrain is a bit retarded with carts.

[znaiika]

So pretty much you wont answer the question. Gotcha.

I did answered you about PVP, if you smart you will understand it. My answer is up there, you only have to see it.
Creator? it is exactly what I am saying, you get tired so quick, it takes away every want to trade, durability and speed bonuses don't work on armor to have stamina drain slower and run faster.

[MrDDT]

Will any of you really be pleased by the implementation of skill caps to create need for trade?

Are you really going to enjoy being forced to gather your profession's items to trade for others? Are the systems in place that fun that you actually WANT to specialize? This seems like a really poor path to take for such a simple game.

What if it is not properly balanced (expect this), and those who chose Fishing must fish for 5 hours to come up with the value to trade for 1 hours worth of scavenging products? Alternatively, if people go with the most profitable skills, will you be happy with a game world that consists of 90% scavengers, for instance?


I agree this will be also issues with it, as this is normally the steps we worry about in most games. However, without the systems in place to limit people to want to trade higher end items, there is never going to be an economy.

If player A has everything, and player B has everything, there will never be trade between player A and player B.

Limiting the # of high end skills, thus high end items a player can make will promote trade. Will it be balanced? Likely not, most games dont balance this well however, its a start.

Then with local/regional resources you will have another aspect that will promote trade. Will it be balanced? Likely not, most games dont balance this well however, its a start.

Then adding contested rare resources that have high value you will have another aspect that will promote trade. Will it be balanced? Likely not, most games dont balance this well however, its a start.


See the trend there? Currently we cant even get to the balancing stage because the major systems that would need to work together are not even in the game. As a tribe right now we had a tribe get together and honestly we couldnt come up with any ideas of how to get it so tribe members will want to work as a team. Not because we dont want to, but because there isnt anything to work as a team for. Our city is mostly built, sure we can take it down and rebuild and maybe even put up more stuff, but it would only be for looks. Only the new members or players would be wanting that to see how the system works nothing more.
So we are at the point of what do we do? We have a few people now with 10+ skills at 100. Many of our players overlap is who can craft what. Meaning like toolcrafting we have like 6 people with 100 toolcrafting. There is no reason for anyone person to make the tools. As a tribe we are in serious need of limiting factors and objectives. I'm not going to say "we beat the game" only because there isnt really anything to beat. Even the hardest animals in the game (Shadowbears) can be killed by someone only 1 hour old toon.

You can say all day "its a sandbox make your own stuff to do" that goes only so far. We have been doing this, more than any tribe. We have held PVP events, contests, crafting, fishing, running, races, swimming, forestry. We have built a huge city which is likely the best in the game. What else do we do? We cant keep thinking of fluff stuff to do without more tools. We need strife, we need something to work for, we need something to be a group for, and we want meaning to what we are doing. Building a wall for the looks of it is ok for about a week, but after that its just boring and dumb.



I did answered you about PVP, if you smart you will understand it. My answer is up there, you only have to see it.
Creator? it is exactly what I am saying, you get tired so quick, it takes away every want to trade, durability and speed bonuses don't work on armor to have stamina drain slower and run faster.


How many meanings are we talking about? PVP is one of them and I am only saying that improve PVP to make possible for all kind of play styles to play in Xsion.
How many players are actually active at this point? and still I see all the time people trading, what would happen if 300 - 500 - 1000 people where playing?
Don't expect little number of people to do major trading, not possible.
Also easier way to travel.
""WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN GAME TO HAVE ALL THOSE INTERACTIONS AND TRADING GOING ON"".
You have to accept those who don't like PVP those who do those who like solo and so on.


I dont see where you answered the question of if there is a fact or not of removing PVP from the game would add meaning to the game? Can you please explain where you said this? I see you talk about how PVP does have 1 meaning to the game.

Yes or no does removing PVP add meaning to the game? YES OR NO. Say yes or no first, then you can type all you want after it. Its a yes or no question. I need this so I can explain more detail. Once we have facts in place we can move on.

[znaiika]

Yes or no does removing PVP add meaning to the game? YES OR NO. Say yes or no first, then you can type all you want after it. Its a yes or no question. I need this so I can explain more detail. Once we have facts in place we can move on.

First off, I never said PVP should be removed I don't know where you got that. "" improve PVP ""
"" removing PVP add meaning to the game? "" NO. If you must have my answer.
Secondly: You can have PVP in many ways, ways to scare people off, ways to have fun, ways to have challenge, ways that would work for everyone.

[MrDDT]

First off, I never said PVP should be removed I don't know where you got that. "" improve PVP ""
"" removing PVP add meaning to the game? "" NO. If you must have my answer.
Secondly: You can have PVP in many ways, ways to scare people off, ways to have fun, ways to have challenge, ways that would work for everyone.


Those are opinions on the "Secondly"

I didnt say you said remove PVP. I was just stating a fact. So you agree that removing PVP wouldnt add meaning to the game.

Now does adding PVP to a game add meaning to a game?

[MrDDT]

Lol, so we're just going to randomly say that no one else balances their shit either, so why start now? This is ludicrous. You can't just toss things into a live game and hope it turns out, and that you can fix it up later.



Exactly, so why start by restricting content?



But player A doesn't necessarily "have everything", they only have access to the skills that would allow them to "have everything". If they actually "have everything", then this should indicate that production capabilities far exceed demand, and the solution to that problem is not to limit who can perform what actions.

Again, what value are you adding with this system? Are you really going to enjoy the hours you now spend grinding and trading more than the hours you spent doing it yourself before? All because of some arbitrary game mechanic...



This should be your focus. As you've mentioned, the entire point of the game so far is only to play the game. The system you've proposed above is one where people are restricted from certain sections of the game, so that they must trade for those items. You would be removing content from an already barebones game.

If items actually have value, an economy will arise from who can produce the highwar



Judaires, Im not saying because other games dont balance it so why balance it here. Im saying you need to put it into testing or the game before it can be balanced correct?

I'm not saying restrict content. Im saying restrict quality of the items people get. Meaning, if you have 100 scav you will yeild high QL items, but that also means you wont get high QL items from hunting.

Player A does currently have everything (or near it) because of 2 things.
1) Most times are very very very easy to get.
2) They have nothing limiting them on if they can get them or not.

I 100% agree on value of items needs to be higher for an economy. The question is how do you give items value? There are a few ways to do this.

A)Need to give them a reason to use XYZ items (bonuses work, but there are other ways to give reasons. Like if you dont have good armor you will die in 1 hit, while wearing good armor you die in like 20 hits, assuming there is something that attacks you PVP or PVE)
B)Limit the supply of items that are wanted/needed. If you have a bonus of eating food, and food was hard to get, then food items would yield a higher value. Simple supply and demand.
C)Demand (sorta tied to A), you increase the use or the amount of these items used, and you increase demand. Increasing demand would give those items a higher value.


Economy is simple yet hard. There are many systems that tie into an economy but the basics are still needed to make the core economy work.

Supply and Demand.

Right now supply is huge, and demand low.

Like I said before and I will say it again in the same post. To increase demand you need to give people reasons to want to use these items. I believe the biggest reasons to use them are skill gain and bonuses off them.
Right now bonuses are not enough to warrant people caring about them.
When I can make a supreme QL weapon with 42 skill and 25 dex. Which is the same QL someone with 100 skill and 100 dex can make. There is a major problem with supply.

[znaiika]

Now does adding PVP to a game add meaning to a game?

I will answer your second question after you answer mine.
Restricting people in varies factors is a good motive to play? YES or NO.

[Jadzia]

No... Do math. Create models. Create tools. Collect data. Make informed design decisions.

Everything is already in-place to adjust supply and demand. It's not like you need a whole new system to slow down the production of items. Make stuff harder to make. It's really easy, you just change a few numbers in the code for resource gathering and crafting. Make item bonuses better and monsters harder so that you HAVE to use good stuff to beat big monsters.

...Well be real, and you'll see that that IS restricting content. Who is going to spend their time hunting if they just get a bunch of useless items from it?

Sorry, economy is simple and easy. You make things difficult and time consuming to get, and you make those things useful. There is a myriad of ways to accomplish those two things, and they should have been decided about 3 years ago when Jordi was dreaming this game up.

I've never thought I would ever say this...but I agree with prokop. I feel odd :)

[NorCalGooey]

I agree with him too. I'd add one more thing. A strong economy requires a stable currency, or asset bubbles will cause smart money to dominate the world, as is done currently in real life.

Basically, where does the currency supply come from? Right now in Xsyon it is fiat currency with very little use (or no use like the bottlecaps and dollars). It is created by players which is good, but I think the currency needs more value, because the population isn't large enough to have a trust level high enough to use valueless fiat.

[NorCalGooey]

Ok simply put, unstable currencies create massive wealth for people who know what they are doing. Do you have any idea how rich the richest people in the world are? It certainly isn't Carlos Slim with $74 billion or Bill Gates. 4 billion people stuck on a $2 / day budget. What do you think they buy with that $2? It's because of wealth hoarders and wealth is so easy to steal when you have volatile currencies.

Anyway, I edited my last post that might help

[MrDDT]

No... Do math. Create models. Create tools. Collect data. Make informed design decisions.

Everything is already in-place to adjust supply and demand. It's not like you need a whole new system to slow down the production of items. Make stuff harder to make. It's really easy, you just change a few numbers in the code for resource gathering and crafting. Make item bonuses better and monsters harder so that you HAVE to use good stuff to beat big monsters. It's really simple -- why is Jordi not doing it? Because he doesn't have the data, nor the model to analyze it with, nor the tools to record it with. He doesn't know how hard he has to make monsters, so he just doesn't do it. Lazy.



...Well be real, and you'll see that that IS restricting content. Who is going to spend their time hunting if they just get a bunch of useless items from it?



Sorry, economy is simple and easy. You make things difficult and time consuming to get, and you make those things useful. There is a myriad of ways to accomplish those two things, and they should have been decided about 3 years ago when Jordi was dreaming this game up.

The more excuses you find to justify the state of the game, the longer it's going to stay that way...


I agree that this needs to be done.

I dont agree about him not having the data. He wants a safe easy world for people. They have been crying for it all the time and now they have it. They want everything handed to them easy mode. They have had it done and this is what you get. A broken economy. We have been saying it for over a year now.

[fotuenti]

Giving the game meaning... <snip>

well said.

devs, i hope you are reading Creator's post. IMO, Creator has nailed it head on.

[znaiika]

I agree that this needs to be done.

I dont agree about him not having the data. He wants a safe easy world for people. They have been crying for it all the time and now they have it. They want everything handed to them easy mode. They have had it done and this is what you get. A broken economy. We have been saying it for over a year now.

I think you get it all wrong, He create game to have as many customers as He can and making game balanced for all, it is a really hard choice to make, and almost impossible to keep all type of players on one server, people are always complaining.
As some one said it before, it's not Dark Fail.

[MrDDT]

I think you get it all wrong, He create game to have as many customers as He can and making game balanced for all, it is a really hard choice to make, and almost impossible to keep all type of players on one server, people are always complaining.
As some one said it before, it's not Dark Fail.

Really he isnt creating the game for as many people as he can. He already said this game is going to be a niche game. Meaning that not everyone is going to like this style or this type of game.

Dont believe me ask him in the Q&A he has said it many times.

This is nothing like Darkfall. This game is more focused on crafting, and building.
Darkfall has some good things about it, but it also has some bad things. Another thing is that Darkfall isnt failing. Its just not a game for you.

[znaiika]

Really he isnt creating the game for as many people as he can. He already said this game is going to be a niche game. Meaning that not everyone is going to like this style or this type of game.

Dont believe me ask him in the Q&A he has said it many times.

This is nothing like Darkfall. This game is more focused on crafting, and building.
Darkfall has some good things about it, but it also has some bad things. Another thing is that Darkfall isnt failing. Its just not a game for you.

I guess it's up to Him, what kind of game He want, profitable or optional for fans.

[MrDDT]

I guess it's up to Him, what kind of game He want, profitable or optional for fans.

So both. You can be profitable and fun for the fans. It might not ever be or expected to be huge profit like WOW is, however, doesnt mean it cant be profitable. EVE online is niche and so is Darkfall both are profitable. Darkfall even got a huge amount of money from investors to make Darkfall 2.0.

[znaiika]

So both. You can be profitable and fun for the fans. It might not ever be or expected to be huge profit like WOW is, however, doesnt mean it cant be profitable. EVE online is niche and so is Darkfall both are profitable. Darkfall even got a huge amount of money from investors to make Darkfall 2.0.


So yes, you can make both with the right tools and settings.
Yes DarkFall just about to sit and talk to Investors from over sea to support servers there as well.

Why do you think WOW is one of the most profitable game?

[MrDDT]

So, the problem is that Jordi designs the game to the apparent wants of the small group of players he currently has, and these apparent wants are not necessarily what would be best for the game, or the players for that matter.

Do you think this problem is actually going to be resolved? How? Why?

Yep, I think this is what is happening and I believe it might be resolved over time as he starts to see that just because someone asks for something doesnt mean its a good idea.

Also he likes to take the middle road trying to appease both sides and not making either happy.

Added after 6 minutes:


So yes, you can make both with the right tools and settings.
Yes DarkFall just about to sit and talk to Investors from over sea to support servers there as well.

Why do you think WOW is one of the most profitable game?


Why do I think WOW is one of the most profitable games? Because its pretty, easy to use, you can jump in and out of it, its lacking bugs, it has a great storyline, 1000s of programers, millions of dollars put into it, movies with it, uses low resources on the computer, can be played on a phone.

Its like Farmville, it has millions of people playing it and makes a lot of money, doesnt mean its the best game made just means it profitable. Could it be better making more money? Im sure it can, could it be more fun for people but limit who is playing? Yes of course.

Xsyon wont appeal to everyone. Most people dont want to work for things inside a game. They want to just play with friends and have a break from real life.


I think of WOW like "Vanilla ice cream" most people in the world like and use vanilla ice cream. This is a fact. But does that mean no one should make odd type favors? Or that the people that make these favors cant make a profit off them?
Like Black Cherry ice cream. You might not like it, but there are many people out there that like it. Maybe not near as many as vanilla type people, but still easy enough to make a profit.

[znaiika]

Why do I think WOW is one of the most profitable games? Because its pretty, easy to use, you can jump in and out of it, its lacking bugs, it has a great storyline, 1000s of programers, millions of dollars put into it, movies with it, uses low resources on the computer, can be played on a phone.

Its like Farmville, it has millions of people playing it and makes a lot of money, doesnt mean its the best game made just means it profitable. Could it be better making more money? Im sure it can, could it be more fun for people but limit who is playing? Yes of course.

Xsyon wont appeal to everyone. Most people dont want to work for things inside a game. They want to just play with friends and have a break from real life.


I think of WOW like "Vanilla ice cream" most people in the world like and use vanilla ice cream. This is a fact. But does that mean no one should make odd type favors? Or that the people that make these favors cant make a profit off them?
Like Black Cherry ice cream. You might not like it, but there are many people out there that like it. Maybe not near as many as vanilla type people, but still easy enough to make a profit.

About money, everyone start at low budget, about choosing what I like, if you have options to choose like ice-cream. WOW has those options and thus have maximum of players playing. You remove one of the options you loose population, isn't that a fact?
How many servers dose WOW have?
GW started as a small group of developers, now look how successful they are, they have just two servers, one for PVP and one for PVE, plus they don't have subscribes.
And you still didn't answer my question.

[MrDDT]

About money, everyone start at low budget, about choosing what I like, if you have options to choose like ice-cream. WOW has those options and thus have maximum of players playing. You remove one of the options you loose population, isn't that a fact?
How many servers dose WOW have?
GW started as a small group of developers, now look how successful they are, they have just two servers, one for PVP and one for PVE, plus they don't have subscribes.
And you still didn't answer my question.


WOW didnt start as a low budget. They had many other games before WOW which allowed WOW to be big budget.
I dont know how many servers WOW has, maybe 100?

If you remove options you dont always lose population. So no that's not a fact. However, most of the time yes you do lose population. There are times where you remove an option that isnt being used. Or you remove an option that has another option very close to it which allows people to just do that option.

GW isnt a true "MMO" they are all instanced like Diablo. I'm pretty sure Guildwars doesnt have a PVP server or a PVE server. All PVP in GW is only if you want to do it.

I thought I answered the question. Was it the WOW question? If I didnt answer it can you please ask it again?

[znaiika]

I thought I answered the question. Was it the WOW question? If I didnt answer it can you please ask it again?

Post #47 You will find it there.

[MrDDT]

I will answer your second question after you answer mine.
Restricting people in varies factors is a good motive to play? YES or NO.

Yes. Allowing everyone to do everything harms the game overall. We have said this many times.

[znaiika]

Yes. Allowing everyone to do everything harms the game overall. We have said this many times.

You did not answer my question Yes or No.

[MrDDT]

You did not answer my question Yes or No.

You should reread your quote. It says it right at the front of it.

[znaiika]

You should reread your quote. It says it right at the front of it.

Then you have no clue?
I am sorry to tell you, you are not a businessman, just another one type fan gamer.
And if Xsion is developed by your opinion, then it is doomed.

[MrDDT]

Then you have no clue?
I am sorry to tell you, you are not a businessman, just another one type fan gamer.
And if Xsion is developed by your opinion, then it is doomed.


Funny I owe a successful business. Very odd.

Second is you cant even spell the game name correctly.

Third is you havnt shown why removing some choices would be bad for the game. Whereas I have. If you allow everyone to do everything and being the best, you destroy the economy.

Fourth is that this isnt just about making the most money. If that were the case, they would do free to play with a cash shop, making the game a lot more like WOW and a lot less like a sandbox MMORPG.

[znaiika]

Funny I owe a successful business. Very odd.

Second is you cant even spell the game name correctly.

Third is you havnt shown why removing some choices would be bad for the game. Whereas I have. If you allow everyone to do everything and being the best, you destroy the economy.

Fourth is that this isnt just about making the most money. If that were the case, they would do free to play with a cash shop, making the game a lot more like WOW and a lot less like a sandbox MMORPG.

Drop "population" is bad for economy and bad for game to be successful, WOW is successful because they have all options for every play-style.
In order to make game successful:
One, make game interesting/addictive and challenged, so far Xsyon is made to grind it is still playable and is interesting, but is not addictive, and when everything is decay? then it would feel more grinding.
Two, have as many options possible for every type of game-plays.
When you get high population, you get more money, you get more money? you can hire more people to code/fix, you make game bug free and more interesting? you get yet more people to play.

[inhabit]

Drop "population" is bad for economy and bad for game to be successful, WOW is successful because they have all options for every play-style.
In order to make game successful:
One, make game interesting/addictive and challenged, so far Xsyon is made to grind it is still playable and is interesting, but is not addictive, and when everything is decay? then it would feel more grinding.
Two, have as many options possible for every type of game-plays.
When you get high population, you get more money, you get more money? you can hire more people to code/fix, you make game bug free and more interesting? you get yet more people to play.

Yeh, and if it was all as straight forward and simple as that everyone would be doing it, oh guess what everone has been copying WOW and now player are sick of the sight of the rehashed crap.

That why, we a small population granted, are here, we like this style of game and a breath of fresh air to gaming we are looking for something different/unique and more than likely niche. We all understand this about this game you clearly have an issue with it.

Population doesnt guarantee buggerall for an economy if everyone can be everything, and all ingame items are worthless so let them fix these issues and progress forward to the next stage. Nothing in this game will be an overnight fix.

High population also leads to more problem and issues, stability and in this game destruction of the world so stop going on about WOW its got nothing to do with this game.

[MrDDT]

Drop "population" is bad for economy and bad for game to be successful, WOW is successful because they have all options for every play-style.
In order to make game successful:
One, make game interesting/addictive and challenged, so far Xsyon is made to grind it is still playable and is interesting, but is not addictive, and when everything is decay? then it would feel more grinding.
Two, have as many options possible for every type of game-plays.
When you get high population, you get more money, you get more money? you can hire more people to code/fix, you make game bug free and more interesting? you get yet more people to play.


You understand that with every choice, there is a choice not picked? So say Xsyon limits how many skills you can learn (this is already planned). If you allow this you limit the choice of people being specialize into a trade able to help the economy. There are a few ways to help the economy, its not always with limiting skills its just one option.

Also dont forget, Xsyon himself said he doesnt plan to make this game to be for everyone, he understands its a niche game. Can it make money as a niche game yes. Will it be as popular is WOW? He isnt planning on that, and the servers cant even handle something like that. He plans to go slow either way.

More money from players isnt going to change whether or not everyone can do everything in game. That is still breaking the economy and meaning to play right now for most players.

[znaiika]

You understand that with every choice, there is a choice not picked? So say Xsyon limits how many skills you can learn (this is already planned). If you allow this you limit the choice of people being specialize into a trade able to help the economy. There are a few ways to help the economy, its not always with limiting skills its just one option.

Also dont forget, Xsyon himself said he doesnt plan to make this game to be for everyone, he understands its a niche game. Can it make money as a niche game yes. Will it be as popular is WOW? He isnt planning on that, and the servers cant even handle something like that. He plans to go slow either way.

More money from players isnt going to change whether or not everyone can do everything in game. That is still breaking the economy and meaning to play right now for most players.

If you can specialize in to some skills not all of them though without decay over time? I have no problem with that, it's the grind after I learn those skills because of decay.
I expect to be able to specialize in armor crafting "tailor, leather, bone and scavenging" at 100% and the rest of skills maximum at 80% and no decay.
Over all I am talking about other options to bring more players in to the game, even if it means socializing only while doing my own thing.

[MrDDT]

If you can specialize in to some skills not all of them though without decay over time? I have no problem with that, it's the grind after I learn those skills because of decay.
I expect to be able to specialize in armor crafting "tailor, leather, bone and scavenging" at 100% and the rest of skills maximum at 80% and no decay.
Over all I am talking about other options to bring more players in to the game, even if it means socializing only while doing my own thing.


I dont agree in you having 3 crafting skills at 100%, and the other 12 at 80%. That means out of 1500 skill points you are at 1260 skills which is 84% in all skills on avg. I do not agree with this, I think at best you should be 50% in all skills or even lower.
I also believe in stack ranking skills. Meaning if you have 100 in a skill vs 90, that wouldnt just account for 10% more in a skill it would account for like 50% more. So 90 to 100 is worth more than 10 to 20 as far as the skill pool goes.

There are many other options to bring more players to the game, but you need to bring the right players based on what the devs want. Adding only players that care about free to play or not isnt the right players IMO. Also adding players that want a counter-strike feel of a game isnt the right players. Also players that just want to grief and punish people are not the right players.

We are looking for Xsyon type players, which are what is listed in the features. People wanting a world where building, survival and Players will find the need to interact with others to survive and thrive in this newly formed world. Xsyon is a PVP world and its also a harsh world, with harsh weather and creatures roaming the lands.

These are the types of people Xsyon is looking for. If they dont fit, they dont fit. This game wont appeal to every player in the world, and making it so breaks it for everyone.

[znaiika]

I dont agree in you having 3 crafting skills at 100%, and the other 12 at 80%. That means out of 1500 skill points you are at 1260 skills which is 84% in all skills on avg. I do not agree with this, I think at best you should be 50% in all skills or even lower.
I also believe in stack ranking skills. Meaning if you have 100 in a skill vs 90, that wouldnt just account for 10% more in a skill it would account for like 50% more. So 90 to 100 is worth more than 10 to 20 as far as the skill pool goes.

There are many other options to bring more players to the game, but you need to bring the right players based on what the devs want. Adding only players that care about free to play or not isnt the right players IMO. Also adding players that want a counter-strike feel of a game isnt the right players. Also players that just want to grief and punish people are not the right players.

We are looking for Xsyon type players, which are what is listed in the features. People wanting a world where building, survival and Players will find the need to interact with others to survive and thrive in this newly formed world. Xsyon is a PVP world and its also a harsh world, with harsh weather and creatures roaming the lands.

These are the types of people Xsyon is looking for. If they dont fit, they dont fit. This game wont appeal to every player in the world, and making it so breaks it for everyone.

I only can wish you good luck with that.
At least you get something right.
I'll stick around for as long as possible, if I decide it's not for me anymore then I'll quit or game shots down, which ever first.

[MrDDT]

I only can wish you good luck with that.
At least you get something right.
I'll stick around for as long as possible, if I decide it's not for me anymore then I'll quit or game shots down, which ever first.

Truly Ive said this before, I don't believe you are the right type of player for this game.
You have said many times you cant take preplanned systems that Xsyon has said will be in the game. So if you quit, I doubt its going to be a big deal. Just as I have a friend who likes Starcraft type games (RTS's) he bought the game and quit also. I'm not thinking he will ever come back and I dont think they should change the game to get him back.

Will the game shut down? I doubt it, they are fixing many of the issues that caused most of the people to quit. Loading times, lag, desync, broken combat, crashing etc. These were and the major reasons why the 1000s at launch quit.
Now they need to work on giving the game meaning. Which is why I think most of the people playing over the last 3 or 4 months have been quitting.

[MrDDT]

This thread was started about 7 months ago. Two pages later, with most of the posts coming from VeryWiiTree and MrtDDT, the future of Xsyon had been decided -- "They want less skills".

Can't wait for you guys to be able to experience all that 'meaning'.


I dont think you read the thread.

Lots of things other than just skill caps on pools were talked about, not sure why you decided to focus on only part of it.

Give things for people to fight for, have things attacking your tribes, have objectives for tribes to fight over. Have local/regional resources, have survial things like making food more important, or acid rain and you need protection. Give reasons for building other than for looks, etc.

Lots of things like those would give a lot more reason for people to log in and play.
Skill cap is one of them, with lowering the # of skills each player can max out you create a reason for people to want to play by having them feel like they are wanted/needed. Better reasons for trade.

I also agree with you that bonuses based on skill needs to be better and balanced. Making it so that there are reasons to use higher crafted gear.

[znaiika]

""You (MrDDT)"" create a reason for people are wanted/needed.


Nail in the head, definitively people are going to be wanted needed, because of lack of players playing.

[MrDDT]

Nail in the head, definitively people are going to be wanted needed, because of lack of players playing.

There is very very few people playing right now if the "lack" of people were going to make people wanted or needed it would be happening now.

The problem is that 1 person can provide EVERYTHING for everyone in the game if they wanted, but no one cares because they can do everything themselves, so why would you need anyone else?

Ive seen a lot of new people join the game and the things they say are "What do you guys need" what do you tell them? When you dont need anything?

[MrDDT]

Just like in other games what you do is you have people that the tribe goes to for those actions.

You have say a leathercrafter instead of everyone in the tribe doing leathercrafting you have a few people doing it. So say out of 100 people you have 4 or 5 leathercrafters. Instead of 100. So people work together trading, or feeling like others need them. Instead of just "Hey do whatever you want, and you will need to keep everything you get because you want to train everything."

[MrDDT]

Did your forum posting bot malfunction or something? Nice +1. You can't just start talking to yourself in the middle of a thread about shit we've already established.

Drugs are bad bro.

[MrDDT]

???

I'm trying to have a discussion with you. You're clearly are not capable of that, as you not only did not respond to the arguments I made in my last post, but you just repeated the premise on which that post was originally made. If you can't think of anything to say, just don't post.

I now understand that you think specialization will work because specialization is a thing. It appears that's as deep as your thoughts go, so I'm done here.


I answered your question, if you want to restate it I will try to quote my answer or reanswer it.

About specialization, I answered that also.

If you have say a toolcrafter, they will want to trade with other players because they need things over players have. Other players will want to trade with the toolcrafter because they need tools. WIN WIN.

IE. Toolcrafter will want to trade with a scavenger, or a hunter, or a leathercrafter, or a weaponcrafter. These other players need tools so they will trade what they are good in with the toolcrafter. Economy 101.

[fatboy21007]

i beleave i shall chime in on this. ive been playing wurm online for bout 3 months now. Where i play is pure pve, no pvp at all. Now wat i observed is obviously, this game is keeping me very occupied as i grind skills, and wats funny is im grinding as i build my city. In xsyon the building, crafting system is limited . In wurm their is no skill/stat decay, you can do all trades if ya want and be the best of the best in them also (would take ya years to do). But, the crafting system is so indepth, u make every peice for every tool, improve it, repair it, use it. Sure deed slow decay on buildings and fences, that means you have thousans of items to maintain including the bulk storage boxs and food storage boxs and chests, boats etc. Wat im getting at , is Xsyon doesnt need more meaning, tools are their to keep ya going for a little bit, Its missing mining, farming,boats, more skills, more indepth crafting. Basically Things to do. You give more to do and add it into mechanics to where players see the gains as they build their epic cities and before ya know it months go by and they dont even realize it.

You dont need pvp , or this n that to make xsyon better. It needs more to occupy the player. No matter the ideas said in this thread is added or not, if pvp got their way things would still be the same, pve got their same. What i said above is wat xsyon needs to begin holding more players ingame. Its all their just need built upon. Personall i hate theirs skill/stat decay, 1 wont fix econ , dont care wat ya say ddt, isnt happening no matter what u think up. A tribe will always be able to self maintain themselves. When you restrict what players can do and limit them in an already limited game world. They get bored faster, and they quit faster. You can say i dont know what im talking about, but i joined wurm feb 1st, april 1st makes 3 months, and ive planned 2 years of projects their, something i could never do in xsyon, All those big ideas u heard me say, 1 -2 months tops, grind skills to 100 be like others, 3 months. so theirs max 5 months then bam end game. See my point now? Provide the tools to create a endless content in the game and provide no way to see a end game, make skill grinds tougher, dont restrict players in crafting or building. This will only end with things getting worse. I am aware alot of you will hate this post, But eve proves it, wurm and several other sandbox games. That is wat i call content. tis all shall watch from the sidelines now.

fatboy

[MrDDT]

i beleave i shall chime in on this. ive been playing wurm online for bout 3 months now. Where i play is pure pve, no pvp at all. Now wat i observed is obviously, this game is keeping me very occupied as i grind skills, and wats funny is im grinding as i build my city. In xsyon the building, crafting system is limited . In wurm their is no skill/stat decay, you can do all trades if ya want and be the best of the best in them also (would take ya years to do). But, the crafting system is so indepth, u make every peice for every tool, improve it, repair it, use it. Sure deed slow decay on buildings and fences, that means you have thousans of items to maintain including the bulk storage boxs and food storage boxs and chests, boats etc. Wat im getting at , is Xsyon doesnt need more meaning, tools are their to keep ya going for a little bit, Its missing mining, farming,boats, more skills, more indepth crafting. Basically Things to do. You give more to do and add it into mechanics to where players see the gains as they build their epic cities and before ya know it months go by and they dont even realize it.

You dont need pvp , or this n that to make xsyon better. It needs more to occupy the player. No matter the ideas said in this thread is added or not, if pvp got their way things would still be the same, pve got their same. What i said above is wat xsyon needs to begin holding more players ingame. Its all their just need built upon. Personall i hate theirs skill/stat decay, 1 wont fix econ , dont care wat ya say ddt, isnt happening no matter what u think up. A tribe will always be able to self maintain themselves. When you restrict what players can do and limit them in an already limited game world. They get bored faster, and they quit faster. You can say i dont know what im talking about, but i joined wurm feb 1st, april 1st makes 3 months, and ive planned 2 years of projects their, something i could never do in xsyon, All those big ideas u heard me say, 1 -2 months tops, grind skills to 100 be like others, 3 months. so theirs max 5 months then bam end game. See my point now? Provide the tools to create a endless content in the game and provide no way to see a end game, make skill grinds tougher, dont restrict players in crafting or building. This will only end with things getting worse. I am aware alot of you will hate this post, But eve proves it, wurm and several other sandbox games. That is wat i call content. tis all shall watch from the sidelines now.

fatboy


I'm going to call out the BS right here on this.

In Xsyon you have yet to finish anything in your building. Your city has never even been 20% finished, I'm not even sure you have planned anything with it. The what skills have you maxed out in Xsyon? I bet you still have a ton left to go.

Grinding skills and building things with no use other than looks will not keep people playing a game. The problem is there is no point to skills, and there is no point to building in Xsyon.

I'm not saying skill pools will fix the game, I'm saying its a start. The idea of limiting skills caps is NOT mine. Heck if anyone has some thing to lose from it, its me. I have all the skills why would I need it changed? It would only be hurting me if it was just about me.

Can economy work with unlimited skills? Of course, can it work skill pools? Yes of course. I think skill pools is the easy way to get people to feel wanted and needed and its been in the plans from day 1.

I've played Wurm Online, its a great building game. Xsyon is better for building now. Wurm has a lot more things working and its free to play, its been out for years. Also it doesnt have many people playing. You go look many are playing right now its something like 300 or 400 online. As far as MMO's go that is nothing. Acting like its this great amount of people playing because of this great game is just a joke. Fatboy also you used to say there was nothing wrong with Xsyon. Promoting adding more buildings will save the game. You got your buildings and look at Xsyon still lacking the players.

Is PVP needed? Of course its not needed. I do believe PVP will help the economy, and I also believe it adds a fun factor to the game. One of the big problems is that combat as a whole is lacking. AI is limited, it doesnt respawn well at all, no challenge, lacking real rewards. One thing you will notice in most games is that you need good gear to kill harder things.

Wurm Online has some great ideas. Healing, Magic, Archery etc. These things are all done well in game and supported well in other ways, if Xsyon had a lot of these things I believe you would see a huge number of people playing Xsyon.

Saying that the building in Xsyon is limited is really a bad joke. Xsyon you can do more than you can in Wurm.


TL:DR
Making a game endless grind doesnt make for more content. Makes for no fun.

[znaiika]

Heck if anyone has some thing to lose from it, its me. I have all the skills why would I need it changed?

Why? to secure your all skills around 100 and prevent other people to ever reach what you have reached.
But if with this new patch they reset all the skills to ZERO and just give you enough maximum XP points so you can redistribute those to full 3 skills per group as you demand? then everyone will be in the same boat including you no exceptions.
That will be fair deal.
Are you willing to give-up on your skills equally with everyone else MrDDT?

[MrDDT]

Why? to secure your all skills around 100 and prevent other people to ever reach what you have reached.
But if with this new patch they reset all the skills to ZERO and just give you enough maximum XP points so you can redistribute those to full 3 skills per group as you demand? then everyone will be in the same boat including you no exceptions.
That will be fair deal.
Are you willing to give-up on your skills equally with everyone else MrDDT?


I dont have a problem with limiting me to 3 skills per pool at 100. I already expect this to happen even though it might take time. So deleting my other skills in my pool to keep 3 skills at 100 is not a problem for me.

[znaiika]

I dont have a problem with limiting me to 3 skills per pool at 100. I already expect this to happen even though it might take time. So deleting my other skills in my pool to keep 3 skills at 100 is not a problem for me.

That is a good start.
Another question: Will we be able to use skill points in another group if those skill points aren't used?
For example: If I only use 2 skills in combat will I be able to use skill points from 3rd skill in say resource group?

[MrDDT]

That is a good start.
Another question: Will we be able to use skill points in another group if those skill points aren't used?
For example: If I only use 2 skills in combat will I be able to use skill points from 3rd skill in say resource group?

Its 2 locks per pool on test, so no.

[znaiika]

Its 2 locks per pool on test, so no.

2 skills per pool six pools 12 locks, will I be able to distribute those 12 locks to any skills I choose in any pool?

[fatboy21007]

actually ddt, ive finished my city 4 times, and then ripped it rite back apart. same as loki has. and i got a fair amount of skills to 100 and 2 stats are 2 points from 100. Game im in now, i havent noticed the grind and skills are at 50. My point is ddt, that the game kept me so occupied that i didnt notice a grind at all because their was so much to choose from. In xyson you are limited on what you can do, so choice is small. So when u grind u know ur grinding as ya sit their spaming it all day. Also the nice pop i see over their chating etc really helps. Xsyon once had this pop at launch n it shrank before u came back. and to my old chatin pals reply, i do want pvp in xsyon, but give pve the off button and pvp the on button and make it a perminant choice. What i have noticed in all my years of playing games is, when people want pve, they are 100% pve n want no part of pvp, same goes for pvp. beleave this is a way both can coexist on the same server while encouraging trade. But trade wont happen unless their is more things to do to encourage a higher pop. Also in a game a like this you will never see a booming econ like eves. Unless ofc ya copy it. You can call bs to me all u ya want ddt. I always remember u stick to your views n always feel their rite. But in the end you will find xsyon's pop shrink n shrink tills theirs barley any of ya around. The game needs more content to occupy the player. Restrict that player, they get bored faster and leave as we all have seen in the past year +. Personally if xsyon adopted wurms crafting system and all u can do in that game + eves game mechanics and how they run their econ id see xsyon getting that 10k-50k subs Jordi hopes to have someday. But i shall watch from the sidelines now, and im not gonna post back in this thread as i know ill get baited along to keep debating things. This is my opnion it obviously works. Statistics prove it. but have fun. (also the pop over their at peak hours is well over 1000 n thats just the pve servers, its a steady 24/7 pop, also alot has changed since u was their and it changes more n more.) but i ant here to advertise that game, im here to give my opnion of wat i noticed can and will work. (also i can build more in wurm then i can in xsyon, again go pop into that game and ull see it :-P )

fatboy

[Drevar]

Have to agree with the skills in Xsyon needing much more depth and breadth. As is, it is just fil slots and click. The only remotely involved skills are Architect and Wainwright which have sub-components. Skills like masonry and woodworking are severely lacking; same or more amount of grinding as the others, but the reward for it isn't there. We need more sub-components, more choices opened up for each material in each item, optional materials beyond the basics required, etc. When you make a knife you should have to choose between a metal handle, plastic handle, or which type of specific wood handle as each would affect the final result differently--just as an example.

[MrDDT]

2 skills per pool six pools 12 locks, will I be able to distribute those 12 locks to any skills I choose in any pool?


No, 2 locks per pool only, So a max of 3 skills at 100 per pool.

Added after 14 minutes:


actually ddt, ive finished my city 4 times, and then ripped it rite back apart. same as loki has. and i got a fair amount of skills to 100 and 2 stats are 2 points from 100. Game im in now, i havent noticed the grind and skills are at 50. My point is ddt, that the game kept me so occupied that i didnt notice a grind at all because their was so much to choose from. In xyson you are limited on what you can do, so choice is small. So when u grind u know ur grinding as ya sit their spaming it all day. Also the nice pop i see over their chating etc really helps. Xsyon once had this pop at launch n it shrank before u came back. and to my old chatin pals reply, i do want pvp in xsyon, but give pve the off button and pvp the on button and make it a perminant choice. What i have noticed in all my years of playing games is, when people want pve, they are 100% pve n want no part of pvp, same goes for pvp. beleave this is a way both can coexist on the same server while encouraging trade. But trade wont happen unless their is more things to do to encourage a higher pop. Also in a game a like this you will never see a booming econ like eves. Unless ofc ya copy it. You can call bs to me all u ya want ddt. I always remember u stick to your views n always feel their rite. But in the end you will find xsyon's pop shrink n shrink tills theirs barley any of ya around. The game needs more content to occupy the player. Restrict that player, they get bored faster and leave as we all have seen in the past year +. Personally if xsyon adopted wurms crafting system and all u can do in that game + eves game mechanics and how they run their econ id see xsyon getting that 10k-50k subs Jordi hopes to have someday. But i shall watch from the sidelines now, and im not gonna post back in this thread as i know ill get baited along to keep debating things. This is my opnion it obviously works. Statistics prove it. but have fun. (also the pop over their at peak hours is well over 1000 n thats just the pve servers, its a steady 24/7 pop, also alot has changed since u was their and it changes more n more.) but i ant here to advertise that game, im here to give my opnion of wat i noticed can and will work. (also i can build more in wurm then i can in xsyon, again go pop into that game and ull see it :-P )

fatboy


Loki has finished a couple of homesteads. Yes.
You have yet to finish a tribe area. Ive been in the game the whole time and Ive been to your tribe many times, its always had crap not even closed to finished. You havnt even done a multistory building like other tribes have.

You are crazy that people that do PVE only like PVE. Heck I love PVE and I do PVP too, most people are like that believe it or not. They want a mix of PVE and PVP.

You dont need to adopt Wurm's crafting system to see huge 10k or 15k subs added. Just do part of what you said, adopt EVE's economy system. Which is saying a LOT.

Why are you blaming Xsyon's low population on me and my ideas? Most of my ideas are not even put into place or not in place. You guys are the ones that wanted this carebear system, where combat is a joke and people insta log off, or death port home, safety totems all over the map anywhere anytime, free totem system.

1000 OMG thats huge. Wait its not. They (Wurm) have 3300 premium paid accounts, and when I checked had less than 350 people online. That's not a lot of people. 350 people online is COUNTING the free accounts. (Ref. http://www.wurmonline.com/wiki/index.php?title=Server_graphs, and http://www.wurmonline.com/) Currently at this second primetime in the USA they have 622 people online. Not sure how that's WELL over 1000 but I guess my math is bad.

Now lets compare this to games like EVE online.
33k people online right now in 1 server. (Ref. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility) They dont have a free system like WURM has either.

I have pop'd in Wurm and you cant build more, you build less. When you can build multi story buildings come talk to me.

Wurm was a good game for its time but the crap you are saying just isnt real truth. You are trying to skew the data and bad info.
Limiting skills will not fix the economy or even drive the #s of people playing in Xsyon up. However, it will keep more players that log in, and combine this with other changes to help economy, PVE and decay/zombies you will see the #s of people in Xsyon climb and hold more % of people.

Wurm's crafting system is the worse grinding game Ive ever seen in my life. Years of clicking "improve" to get to max level. Its so boring.


I know you mean well, but I have to ask you this to help you to understand: What would having different types of knife handles do? Why would you want to use plastic over wood, or vice versa?


Right now nothing because wood/plastic have no stats. But giving wood different types of effects, and plastic an effect will make it so people choose what bonuses and effects they want. Like they do with metal, leather, and bone.

[Drevar]

I would want to use plastic over Sugar Pine or Douglas Fir because it might be lighter, might have a faster swing speed, might be more durable. There are lots of stats that can differentiate the material types. Problem is none of those are implemented in any way. What I want is for the recipes to be more generic and allow us to chose what bonuses go onto an item by using different materials rather than a static set of mats for each specific item.

Ever play SWG? The crafting system there had literally thousands of resources, each one unique because all the stats varied randomly within ranges based on the class of material. As the items got more and more advanced the recipes started calling for specific classes of specific types from specific planets. In that system there was enough depth and breadth for prospecting out the new spawns of materials and harvesting them to be an entire profession.

[MrDDT]

I would want to use plastic over Sugar Pine or Douglas Fir because it might be lighter, might have a faster swing speed, might be more durable. There are lots of stats that can differentiate the material types. Problem is none of those are implemented in any way. What I want is for the recipes to be more generic and allow us to chose what bonuses go onto an item by using different materials rather than a static set of mats for each specific item.

Ever play SWG? The crafting system there had literally thousands of resources, each one unique because all the stats varied randomly within ranges based on the class of material. As the items got more and more advanced the recipes started calling for specific classes of specific types from specific planets. In that system there was enough depth and breadth for prospecting out the new spawns of materials and harvesting them to be an entire profession.


This right here.
Give wood, rock, plastic, etc stats like bones and metal does. Then remove the "type" and only leave "class" on crafting recipes. IE, Rock = Class, Granite = Type
Instead of "Deer flat bone" for a slot in a bone armor, it should just be "flat bone" allowing people to mix and match stats how they choose. Also allowing them to pick armor for looks.

[MrDDT]

Yes that is one portion of the problem, that materials don't have different stats to fine-tune an end product to a certain task, however....



I have. Again, you're skirting the topic. Yes, clarifying that system of diverse materials may give depth and breadth, but there needs to be a reason for that depth and breadth, or it's some meaningless fluff.

1) Emphasis on "thousands of resources", compared to Xsyon's extremely limited set. That's a lot more content to introduce to reach that kind of diversity.
2) Emphasis on "Prospecting out new spawns", Xsyon doesn't do that, remember? Breeding, infinite resource nodes, agriculture. What are you going to prospect? Tons of content to introduce.



The looks part of this makes sense, that was half the purpose of the Tailor class in SWG, but it would be laughable to see the dev time on that one. Also, this game is based upon tiny groups versus showing off in huge city and cantinas like SWG -- how many hours are you going to put into making your character look cool?


Materials do give different stats to fine-tune the end product to a certain task however, it needs to be more options. Look at some of the leather armor sets. You can use any leather you want in some of those sets. They are working mostly well, part of it is that only some of the mats can be swapped out. Also many of the sets are not generic type of material.

I fully agree with the depth and breadth issue. There is a lack of a reason to do a lot of these things. Animals take almost no weapons and armor to kill, noobs are killing the hardest NPC's in the game. PVP has nothing to fight over. Resources are so abundant people are just giving them away.

1)Xsyon does have a long list of resources. Problem is most of them are not working, not in the game fully, or no bonuses on the resources.
2)You can "prospect" out some of the spawns in Xsyon but 2 problems with it in Xsyon. #1 it takes way to long to clear them out, #2 is that most resources are not done like this.


I wouldnt spend any of my time making my toon look cooler. Ive never been one for that type of stuff. I know many people that do. Only reasons I've made the city we have in Xsyon is because there wasnt anything else really to do, many of the tribe members asked for it, and the hope that one day a city might be needed to protect or buff the tribe.

[znaiika]

No, 2 locks per pool only, So a max of 3 skills at 100 per pool.


There are problems in here.

First think what kind if problems I am talking about, and if you can't think of anything I'll fill in my thoughts.

At this point I would like to see loose skills instead of fixed skills and 16 locks on skills, so I could really specialize on my profession.

[MrDDT]

There are problems in here.

First think what kind if problems I am talking about, and if you can't think of anything I'll fill in my thoughts.

At this point I would like to see loose skills instead of fixed skills and 16 locks on skills, so I could really specialize on my profession.


Yeah, one thing I dont like about the lock system is how you really only have the choice in 3 skills per pool at 100. You cant have like all at 10 at 35 skill.

[Qwerty]

I can see that some restriction on skills will encourage trade, but I also think for the individual they should be allowed to keep related trades that are key to their main profession. Either way, the only way to soften the blow of this patch is probably offer everyone a complete one time only respec of their skill points like they do in other games after the patch.

Even with this I think a percentage of population will disappear as this is basically a nerf that is never popular with anyone.

[Drevar]

When I listed the SWG crafting traits as having thousands of resources and involved prospecting for those resources, it *wasn't* a direct comparison saying that it is exactly what Xsyon needs. I used it to demonstrate a game system in which one single step in the crafting process could be a profession all its own.

The way Xsyon is designed, it would not be feasible to have thousands of resource types. People already bitch about all the varieties of cloth. There does, however need to be something else to crafting besides the current fill slot and click for final product. More intermediate steps, different ways to process raw materials so that they have different effects on the final result, more sub-components with varying stats, etc.

Another part of the current crafting system is the tediousness (what some may consider difficulty) is directed at the wrong outcome. It should be tedious and require a lot of work to get QUALITY not quantity. Right now its reversed. Any Joe Blow with low skill and Master tools can get make the best gear with a few clicks, but if he wants 1000 junk crap bricks its going to take him hours and at least 3000 clicks (would be 5000 if not for the tools now staying selected in a recipe).

Edit : major booboo, was (now highlighted) should have been wasn't..kinda changes the whole meaning, LOL

[MrDDT]

When I listed the SWG crafting traits as having thousands of resources and involved prospecting for those resources, it was a direct comparison saying that it is exactly what Xsyon needs. I used it to demonstrate a game system in which one single step in the crafting process could be a profession all its own.

The way Xsyon is designed, it would not be feasible to have thousands of resource types. People already bitch about all the varieties of cloth. There does, however need to be something else to crafting besides the current fill slot and click for final product. More intermediate steps, different ways to process raw materials so that they have different effects on the final result, more sub-components with varying stats, etc.

Another part of the current crafting system is the tediousness (what some may consider difficulty) is directed at the wrong outcome. It should be tedious and require a lot of work to get QUALITY not quantity. Right now its reversed. Any Joe Blow with low skill and Master tools can get make the best gear with a few clicks, but if he wants 1000 junk crap bricks its going to take him hours and at least 3000 clicks (would be 5000 if not for the tools now staying selected in a recipe).


Yep on top of this its promoted to do this grinding type thing instead of quality. Because most people want quantity for 2 reasons 1)Skilling, or 2)Making things (like walls or tools to grind with).

Game needs to promote quality a lot more, and make it harder and harder as it gets higher and higher, with larger bonuses for quality but less by %.
Meaning if you say make a Junk QL (5QL) item weapon it should yield say 5 DPS, Making a Moderate QL item (25QL) would yield like 20DPS..... Making a Very High QL item (70QL) yield like 35DPS. Master QL (90) yeild like 45DPS, Supreme QL (100QL) yeild like 52.5DPS.
So going from 5QL to 30QL only 20points, would yield a 15DPS change, or 3x the effect. But going from 70 to 90 same amount of points would yield a 15DPS change but only be a little over 2x the effect.

About the process 100% agree. Things like taking ore out of the ground, with the option to change it into a metal that makes it stronger (hits harder, or lasts longer) or lighter (attacks faster, or lighter weight), or is of higher QL effect (using this metal will have a higher QL output effect on the item) even though they are all say IRON metals, they can be processed to have effect effects.

Iron would still yield is basic properties of + damage bonus, but now this iron used in crafting would have other effects because of how it was processed.

[Azzym]

Just want to add something I haven't seen posted before in the thread about the meaning of a game. Ill just toss in a few terms and elaborate what I mean with them briefly. You don't have to flame me because I don't claim this to be the "meaning of a game" for everyone, just for me. Another thing is I haven't played this game alot so I lack experience from being maxed out in stats/skills.

1) Flexibiliy in crafting/gathering. This is the hardest thing to define. But when you are building things you want to stand out in one direction or the other. If all houses/carts/whatever look the same, work the same there is not really enough flexibility. Stats is a way of making things differ, but the visuals in the game could go a bit further than they do today. Another thing could be that not all tents/tepees/etc are the exact same size. Add a bit of stretch and shrink when putting up projects would go a long way.

2) Realism. Ok, I admit, by playing a game I really should shut my mouth when it comes to realism, but.... There are a few things that are pretty hillarious in the game right now. Getting ganked by a bunch of rats on dope is one of the more disturbing things. Mad Squirrels chewing my legs off is another thing. Let's not walk down the path of murderous racoons... No matter how badly armored I would be in real life I have a hard time seeing myself jumped in the hood by a gang of rats.

3) Realism (when building). Ok, I haven't built alot yet but there is one amusing thing that bothered me right away. You start with the top and work your way down. I wonder how they came up with that way of thinking when so many things in real life is about starting with a foundation. But, as a suggestion to making building more fun and a bit more realistic, why not allow us to do the complete buildings as a project without any terraforming at all first? Then, when you are happy you can start terraforming and work your way up, not down...

4) More skills. There is much to do on this part. The best games I played have so many things to do that you almost feel overwhelmed by all the choices. If you leave the game for the day with a feeling of not having been able to do this or that you will surely log back as soon as you can. If you on the other hand have maxed most skills and all there is to the game is a balance act to maintain skills...Im not sure about the lasting power of the game. It will surely help trade if everyone can't do everything, but ... that leads us into the subject of trade.

5) Vanity. No matter what you think about vanity items etc its a thing to make you stand out from the crowd. By adding things that really have no impact on anything but visuals you will attract those who love tinkering with stuff like that. I can think of furnitures, decorations, lamp posts, garden gnomes, paths, flowers, curtains, mats, and tons of other things that will make it more fun.

I can think of many more things that make a game worthwhile and meaningful, but these should be pretty simple to add/modify.


//--Doc in game, Spock outside--\\