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View Full Version : Feedback Request: Test Server Combat 9/29/11



Xsyon
09-29-2011, 08:30 AM
The current build on the test server has many revision and tweaks to improve combat. Please provide feedback on the current state of PvP combat on the test server.

Here's what we've done:
- Player collision adjusted.
- Weapon range adjusted.
- Bug with set armor and skill values fixed.
- Bug with swing power fixed. (Quick swings were gaining 50% swing power).
- Attack swing speed slowed.
- Side to side movement slowed.
- Damage increased.
- Effect of swing power adjusted.
- Backstab damage increase slightly reduced.
- Character body angle adjusted to better match the camera angle.
- Increased the chance of being able to hold a swing while hit. This is based on your attack skills.
- Increased the chance of being able to hold a parry while hit. This is based on your parry skill.
- Successful parrys should always remain held.
- Swings drain energy, based on how charged your attack is.
- Bug with stats not gaining in combat fixed.
- Removed the ability to parry without a weapon.
- Updated animations to better show what weapon is used for the parry.
- Blocked auto move holdingboth mouse buttons in combat.
- Weapon quality increases damageusing a quadratic instead of a linear function.
- Revised combat damage text to show full calcuations.
- Dodge has been removed, for now. It will be implemented in a different manner.

Important!
- Added mouse combat mode.

This can be turned on through the Keybind panel. In mouse combat mouse you can use the right mouse button to attack and the left mouse button to parry. By default you will attack with your right and parry with your left hand. To switch hands, press the block (Left Alt) key.

Notes:
Attackers skill and defenders armor is combined to calculate a 'to hit' factor that reduces damage. The calculations are similar to the D&D 'to hit AC 0' system.

Mouse combat mode does not save when you exit the game. This will be set up soon.

Next up:
- Animations for successful parrys.
- Specific body part targeting for critical hits.
- Debuffs based on critical hits such as slowed movement.
- Greater effect on energy gain based on hunger and thirst.
- Revised damage reduction for successful parrys.
- Revised creature ranges, attack power and defense.

All of the values are now easy to adjust. I appreciate feedback on all aspects of the current system especially the newly added mouse mode combat.

Thanks!

NorCalGooey
09-29-2011, 08:44 AM
DDT get on and test (if you can)

Derek
09-29-2011, 09:49 AM
No mobs or people to test on yet. First impressions are:

Likes:
1-Combat mouse mode.
2-Improved parry animation.

Dislikes:
1-Animations are now too slow. I was hoping that the previous swing speed would stay (or maybe 90% of that speed) and a "pull back" animation would be added to transition the weapon back to ready effectively creating a cooldown between swings and creating the illusion of momentum. It just feels too sluggish now as DDT said in post below.
2-Stamina drain seems too severe.
3-See Inhabit's post (8 posts down) about the bug with swing charge. In the current implementation, you can't hold a swing, then press parry while still holding the swing, and then release parry to go back to swing. The same is true about the opposite: holding parry, then holding swing to charge swing without releasing parry, then release swing to go back to parry. This would be a great addition to the current system. It allows faking players to fake swings and jump into parry then counter.

I'm sure there will be more when I can test on other players and mobs.

MrDDT
09-29-2011, 12:30 PM
Im testing now.
So far I like it. Does need balancing.

Added after 31 minutes:

Few things I would balance.

Show how much damage is lost on the test server to we can better balance parry attacks.

Combat is still very long.

Attackers are running out of stamina before they are running out of life, and no way to gain back stamina. Major problem as there is no way to gain back stamina vs life, so who ever just defends up will win. So people will be at a stale mate or wait for friends to attack.
To fix this, holding parry, should use more stamina. To prevent people just defending non stop until the target is out of stamina. It should be used as a choice in combat, not as a starting base to run people dry in combat to win. Not really sure how to fix this problem, but I can see its clearly a problem. You will remove HP totally out of combat if its like it is.

Parry isnt using which side its parried on, so if attacker attacks me on the left, I can parry the right side, and it will parry the same amount as if I parried on the right side. (I want to keep it like this its way more fun like this).

Backwards movement speed is too fast.
Backwards while using AorD is way to fast.

Added after 5 minutes:

Again after most testing, attacking fast vs holding swings eats a LOT of stamina.
After killing 2 coyotes, Im at 0 stamina from doing fast attacks only.
Where this is a major problem is anytime you have to attack more than 1 person at a time, you will run out of stamina and nothing you can do about it.

Overall still a lot more fun to play, just needs some balancing.

meissner61
09-29-2011, 12:33 PM
URG this sounds like good stuff.. i wish i could test.!! Can you give a bit of a more detailed overview ddt? You mentioned stamina wars. What happens when you run out of stamina? Cant do anything?

BTW when dual wielding would it be better just to set it up so both weapons block at once / attack at once, if someone can give some insight why this would or wouldnt work. Its a bit of a hassle to think about your different hands all the time.

MrDDT
09-29-2011, 03:12 PM
Attack range is too short in my opinion also.
Knives you have to be kissing (like really touching bodies) to hit.
Axes, clubs and picks/shovels are a bit short also.

I would like to see each type of weapon have better range of attack based on how they would use that weapon. Knives would be the shortest, while I think clubs the longest, then axe, then picks. Picks also seem to do the most damage which would help counter balance with a slightly shorter range.

I think adding about 50% ranges to all of them should be a good starting spot. (I think thats where it was last patch).

Also ARC attacks, I'm watching attacks miss targets because of weapons are attacking point of attacks instead of arcs.

Added after 17 minutes:

Armor I think doesnt add enough defense.

Weapons matter a lot more than armor. Going from 1 item (2 if you use 2 weapons which is another problem about being forced to dual wield). Overall damage is effected by +/-50% by 1 item (weapon), vs armor is effecting overall damage +/-30% yet its 15 items.
Plus armor slows you down a LOT. So in combat its even worse.

Not sure this is intended or not, but I see unarmed more of a fun sport type of skill instead of a real skill that you are going to be out there killing people and things with. If that's the intend, I wont comment on it. If you want it to be useful then many things need to change about it.


I talked about this a little, but combat still lasts a long time. I fought GuideMihr (I would guess around 200+ HP) and the fight was over 3mins again.
I fought Roths (about 150HP) and the fight lasted about 2.5mins
Roth and GuideMihr both have higher HP than a normal players. But you can see these are long fights IMO. Also it came down to stamina as the problem not HP.

Added after 1 19 minutes:

Jumping should take a lot more stamina. People jumping around in combat, and losing less stamina than people running after them, its also very hard to hit people jumping due to desync/ping.

Added after 35 minutes:

Parry, needs to use up stamina while using and holding.
Right now if someone is parrying, you cant do anything about it but walk away. If you attack them you lose stamina and they lose nothing (maybe a little life if they are low), but they can do this all day long.

Also attacks (non parried attacks) are taking too much stamina. Like cut that down by 60% IMO. Every fight (1 v 1) is coming down to stamina issues, even if no one is using parry.

Xsyon
09-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Thanks so far. I need to digest all of this.

Are there any comments so far on the 'mouse mode' combat? Is there a preference for this or is it good to simply have this choice?

One comment about the effect of armor. What you see is a combination of your attack skill and the defender's armor. Basically attack skill overcomes armor right now, rather than directly increase damage. At 0 attack skill, a defender could absorb close to 100% damage with a set of full armor. However, if armor doesn't feel effective enough, it is what it is and can be adjusted.

Pollygod
09-29-2011, 03:36 PM
1st I must say combat log is much better :) not fond of new combat mouse setup I like the other way but would like to be able to change parry key. If the one hand is parry all the time we may as well have a shield instead of another weapon :)
IF NEW MOUSE COMBAT IS IMPLEMENTED IT MUST BE A CHOICE I WONT USE IT :)
The new way is ok but make'n one hand parry only don't work for me, also as DDT said stam drain needs adjusting. maybe add a retaliation bonus to successful parry and make held parry drain stam a bit, this way there's a reason to both use parry yet not hold it.


On a personal note I would like to see a combat stance that doesn't look like I'm carrying an anvil between my legs lol like bend at knees more and make the upper body more vertical for shoulders at least :)


I think its just that the cam is tied to toon in a way that makes it look weird in combat ta me, hard ta explain why :)

perhaps a free cam option for combat, this could be so ya can mouse around toon but make it so pitch up and down will make toon hit upper lower and mid still.

MrDDT
09-29-2011, 03:58 PM
I think overall trying to get combat slower to be more skillful has made it to slow and not flashy enough.

I would like to see larger arc attacks, faster attacks but also faster responses that matter.

I hate to say it, but to me its about the same as we have now overall with the speed of held attacks being to slow, and the attack swings being to slow. It feels like slow mo everything.

I know I was a fan to slow it down, but now its like to slow over all. The attack weapon speeds are like 1/2 the speed, and now holding attacks is 2x. So all in all combat looks about 4x slower, and movement speeds are slow (which I like just how they are other than noted above), so combat seems like you are fighting in a bunch of honey.

I would like to see more flashy attacks, like you swing your axe and it reacts just you get no damage from it. If you want to do a power attack, you hold the attack for a second and it does it. Or maybe hit a key, and it does a cool play of the attack. Holding the mouse down for 2 seconds like it is now, just feels clunky to me.

I like the combat overall better now than before, but still doesnt have that feel of a good combat system.

I play mount and blade and the attacks are about the same but damage is much more deadly. 1 or 2 hits can kill you.

Not saying that 1 or 2 hits should kill people. Just saying mount and blade combat is faster and flashy. But you also respawn fast there and back in the fight fast. Not something I like about Xsyon.

Added after 13 minutes:


Thanks so far. I need to digest all of this.

Are there any comments so far on the 'mouse mode' combat? Is there a preference for this or is it good to simply have this choice?

One comment about the effect of armor. What you see is a combination of your attack skill and the defender's armor. Basically attack skill overcomes armor right now, rather than directly increase damage. At 0 attack skill, a defender could absorb close to 100% damage with a set of full armor. However, if armor doesn't feel effective enough, it is what it is and can be adjusted.


First you cant have 0 skill, you start with 5 =P
But ya I didnt see armor taking near 100% of the damage. Highest I saw was 60% vs lowest I saw was 30% (Both using skill).
My point is you talking about skill and armor. Look at only the effect of armor. Skill is another factor in there, meaning if I have high skill (100) and you have 0 armor, the most I will do is 100% of my damage. If you have very high armor the most I will do at 100 skill is 50% damage. Now if I have low skill (5) and you have no armor I will do about 70% of my damage, If I have low skill (5) and you have very good armor I will only do about 20% damage.

Weapon is effecting you by 50%, armor is only giving you a choice of really 80% damage vs low skilled and 50% of high skilled. Meaning the rest is effected by armor. But armor takes up 15 slots, and has other factors like weight.
So really in fighting someone you have the choice of wearing armor and getting 50% less damage than not wearing good armor (When fighting someone good skills).

I also believe that armor is more effective vs some types of weapons.

I think a lot has changed so its hard to say, right now wearing armor is bad because its more of a stamina fight than anything else. Sooooo being that armor weighs a lot, its a lot of that problem with stamina.

I like the new mouse combat, as long as parry stays like it is where it doesnt matter if you parry with the left and or the right hand.

Another problem is forcing people to use 2 weapons because of parry, there is no choice in single hand weapon parry option.

I think making mouse combat mode like you have, it should check to see if you have a weapon in your "parry" hand, and if you dont, it parries with your main weapon.

Also this is a great start to add shields in, it would look really nice with shields up here, and I can see shields working where you dont have to "block" the direction of the attack as much with a shield.

Good work over all Xsyon, like it, just doesnt feel fully right.

Added after 8 minutes:

Another problem Im having is seeing peoples attack to parry them, they are very small motions and if they get close I cant see them at all due to my body fully covers theirs (most people are 1/2 my size).

Also I dont see a bonus to being big, doesnt look like height has any effect or not enough effect on reach.

Naux
09-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Going to test it now, hopefully I'm able to charge up attacks and do battles that way instead of just clicking constantly.

Charging is slow/swinging is very slow (unless armed/unarmed skill and proficiency contributes which in that case my armed is only 31 and clubs is 30); even though swing speed is slow I realize that the reason its slow is because the hits are much harder with over 17.00 (against 57% armor....compared to the old system of 12.00 w/o armor stat) every time, charged fully (makes for some short battles).

I no longer need to wield two weapons or use punching (Kimbo Slice? lol)

Health/Energy is gaining much faster if not hungry or thirsty (didn't test compared to starving and thirsty though).

I really like how you can view what gives bonuses and what doesn't; here some of the values we found:

LOVE the +45% str bonus on hits for certain values.

Armor:
Nothing = 34.99
All Minden leather (moderate to high quality) = 53.90

Helms (used head only hits):
Nothing = 55.79.....(Artisan leather helm = 55.78 how is it lower? lol)
Minden = 58.02

These seems to be bugs:
1. Moving backwards and diagonal is very fast compared to moving forwards and diagonal.
2. Swing charge doesn't start charging until your character is in the "holding" position but it seems like it should start charging once you start holding the button down.
3. Artisan helmet gave a lower armor rating than not wearing anything; though very funny.

So far I'm satisfied with these changes, we didn't get a chance to check out the parry in actual combat (just messed around with it a bit) or the mouse combat, we were still able to do the "fight dance" around each other and end it fairly quick (to much Face of Mankind, must correct and defend lol).

inhabit
09-30-2011, 02:21 AM
Parry

Not sure i like what has been changed but maybe im being fussy lol

(Current Parry on LIVE server)
I can press either mouse button to charge and hold a swing, then hold ALT at same time to parry (with both weapons) an incoming attack, then release ALT and my swing will auto charge up again without repressing a button (provided i continued to hold it down while parrying), i like this as it is almost (but not quite) like a counter attack.

(Current Parry on TEST server using new mouse mode)
Press right mouse button to charge swing, while still holding, press left mouse button to parry incoming attack, release left button and parry weapon auto attacks with 0%charge, you then need to press right mouse button again to charge the original swing.
This to me is cumbersome and with swing speeds slowed down it doesnt feel quite right to me.

As for the damage mitigation parring provides i was fairly happy with it.

Possibly add the following to improve (especially if you are planning on staying with the slowed down combat speed):-

Add back in the auto charging of original swing if you have continued to hold this down while parrying to give a feeling of counter attack which could be further improved like so:-

As DDT said parry in any direction should still parry the attack.

If you successfully parry in the correct direction i think you should get a bonus such as,

1.)the attacking player is stunned for a short while to allow you to get a chance of a counterattack back at them.
or
2.)If you again parry in the correct direction your auto swing charge is boosted double the speed for a counter attack.
or
3.)Again if you parry in the correct direction your auto swing charge at normal speed causes full damage regardless when you release it.

Personally i would prefer the swing speed boost option 2 for a successfull parry direction over the other options.

Hope the above makes sense its easier when performing the actions ingame than trying to type the explanations :)

*edit* can we have the option to change and map our own combat actions to our mouse buttons please :)

Drevar
09-30-2011, 09:28 PM
I have to agree on the too slow swing animations. Swinging my pre-order knife (already much slower than a nomal knife) feels like it weighs 20 pounds. Not sure which would be easier, simply adjusting animation speeds or tweaking for PC stats and swing speed modifiers on the weapons. Perhaps allow weapon skill to increase the swing speed cap (not the actual speed) and then agility and varying stats on weapons would effect the speed. Depending on your skill, you may not take advantage of all the bonus speed available. A player would still have to balance faster strikes with energy depletion.

Energy depletion at the current test level is a bit much. Try a gradual cut back, say start with 25% less and let us see how it feels, if still to much then 33% from current base amount. I would expect depletion to be based on Fort, weapon weight and quality (better balance, etc), power of swing, and a small bit by skill (knowing how to swing optimally).

Not sure I like the removal of unarmed parry. I think in a fight of unarmed vs unarmed you should be able to parry nearly all damage while vs weapons you would reduce the damage by less than you would if you had a weapon. If it is some technical reason then perhaps we need another skill specifically for unarmed blocking, or simply base the blocking off of unarmed skill. Or maybe the revamped dodge mechanic will favor unarmed?

Purely aesthetics, but the sidestep in combat looks a bit rigid; the movement doesn't translate into the upper body.

More as I am able to test...

Also, when considering a weapon's damage vs a defender's armor you say it is pretty much a skill vs armor rating calc. How would a person swinging a Supreme weapon with +damage mods but 0 skill compare to someone with with the same weapon at 50 or 100 assuming the same armor on the defender? Would there be no effect at all since the damage totaled and dealt based on a ratio of skill to armor? How does Armed Combat skill factor into it? Im just wondering if someone with 90 str, supreme weapon + damage bonus, and gear that adds Str will be entirely negated simply because someone has a few points of armor more than the attacker's skill.

MrDDT
09-30-2011, 09:48 PM
Also, when considering a weapon's damage vs a defender's armor you say it is pretty much a skill vs armor rating calc. How would a person swinging a Supreme weapon with +damage mods but 0 skill compare to someone with with the same weapon at 50 or 100 assuming the same armor on the defender? Would there be no effect at all since the damage totaled and dealt based on a ratio of skill to armor? How does Armed Combat skill factor into it? Im just wondering if someone with 90 str, supreme weapon + damage bonus, and gear that adds Str will be entirely negated simply because someone has a few points of armor more than the attacker's skill.


Currently on test, Skill vs Armor is the last of the damage calcs.
If you have 0 (or 5 skill) vs very high armor, then the weapon type, power attack etc has no effect at adding damage when its (skill vs armor is) removing 100% of the damage.

Xsyon
10-01-2011, 10:30 PM
October 1 2011

The test server is up with the following combat tweaks:

- Attack speeds increased.
- Attack ranges increased and balanced slightly.
- Damage adjusted for a slightly higher overall DPS (25% higher DPS)
- Backwards movement slowed.
- Diagonal movement checked. This should be correct (Diagonal movement speed is the same as backward or side movement).
- Stamina drain when attacking reduced.
- Stamina drains when you parry or are hit.
- Stamina drained when jumping increased.
- Slightly increased fist damage.
- Corrected some issues with switching between a held swing and parry. This is still in progress.

Notes:

- Parrying with your left or right arm has the same effect. It's the direction of the parry that is important. The only difference will be damage and decay to the correct weapon. The way parry works is: If you parry in the exact correct direction, you parry all damage. The further away your parry is from the attack direction, the less damage you parry.
- Mouse combat mode will be a choice. I think it will be the preferable choice for a single weapon, or a weapon and shield, but for those that want to dual wield with more skill, the default mode will be better in my opinion.
- Unarmed combat shouldn't be a viable form of combat versus weapons right now. It will be improved in the future to be made more of a fun form of fighting for contests and tournaments.
- I'm working on separating the effects of skill and armor to make the system clearer.

More is in the works, but I want feedback on these tweaks first so we can make sure the system is better one step at a time. This build has changes that have not been checked yet by our test team. We will be testing throughout the night and tomorrow. Everyone is welcome to jump in!

Kazkid
10-01-2011, 11:36 PM
Is the removal of the ability to move in combat holding both mouse buttons temporary? Hopefully removed before the patch monday....?

IF it is at least please let me assign a keyboard key to attack function.

MrDDT
10-02-2011, 02:46 AM
Did some quick testing, it looks really good so far.

Once I can have some real PVP fights, I will know more.
First thing I do notice is that Stamina drained from attacks, is based on per attack vs damage. IMO it should be % of damage or something, instead of a per attack. Meaning someone punching very fast 100 times will drain = stamina as someone hitting you with an axe 100 times. Axes are very slow too.

Added after 2 Hours 20 minutes:

Still looking good. I only got to test it with 1 player who had poor combat skills on his toon, and not great at combat overall.

Few things, I did notice but so far looks good I want to test more.

1) Stamina per attack as noted before
2) Something is wrong with the defenders % parried, its not showing the right %, the attacker "block" stat is right but defenders all messed up.
3) Parrying low and being attacked high parries 50% of the attack, parrying high, while being attacked high parries 100% of the attack, parrying high being attacked anywhere other than high parries 50% of the attack. Clearly something is wrong here, there should be more of a chance from being right, to wrong, being sorta right to being wrong.
To talk a bit more about this
If you just hold parry middle. You will parry 50% of all attacks without having to make a choice, if they attack middle you will parry 100% of it. There really isnt much of a reason to be right. I believe that the attacker should take a punishment for being 100% parried, more than doing 0 damage and a slight stamina loss due to attacking. I think they should lose 2x or even 3x the stamina for that attack. This will give both the defender and the attacker more of a reason to want fight better. Defender to parry 100% of the damage, and the attacker to see that the defender is parrying his attack and NOT attack that direction and change.
4) I see no way to break a target from parrying other than trying to get behind them, this goes a bit with #3, in that if there was more of a change then you could see the target parrying and attack 2 places away from his parry. But if you do this, no one will want to attack chest attacks (AKA middle direction) because it will always be only 1 place away from a parry or 100% parry place. I believe chest should yield more damage if you choose to attack that direction, this will make people want to parry the chest more, but again chest would then parry 50% of the time. But I think its a pretty good system, because if someone just held chest, they would overall die.
5) Punching attacks AKA unarmed, seems a bit slow, damage from punches isnt high to start with.
6) Stamina can be a major problem when fighting 2 people. Even if I flawless someone (AKA never get hit due to using good parries and attacks and dodging), I will still be around 60% stamina after the 1v1. How would someone then fight another attacker? There is no way to gain stamina back while in a fight other than stand there. So some type of tools to allow people to gain stamina in combat. Potions, better foods, overall regeneration something.
7) Jumping is combat is totally jacking up combat, it causes major desyc and issues attacking people. When someone jumps they move really weird and when you jump you go FASTER than normal forward movement. (IE. If you sprint and jump you will go faster than a sprint). Stamina loss on a jump isnt very much when you consider being hit for your life and stamina loss. I can see people just jumping all over the place because of this in combat, jumping should cause a lot more stamina to prevent cracked out jumping tactics in combat. Normally jump should rarely be used anyways, meaning you should jump over a ledge, or jump up onto a rock. But jumping on flat land really has no point, its not like jump attacks do more damage or anything.
8) Can we get the option to change which mouse button in mouse mode combat attacks and which mouse button parries?
9) Really like how you did dual weapons with this Xsyon combat now. You can attack much faster but not to fast with 2 weapons at the cost of not parring. Looks good. Once shields are in, can really see this being a good DPS vs defense balance. However, right now there is NO reason not to use 2 weapons, I think you should give damage bonus to only having 1 weapon in your hand due to the fact you cant parry very well and cant attack fast very well, or maybe an overall defense bonus. This will give people choices of using 2 weapons vs 1 weapon.
10) Armor, and weapon decay. Right now they almost never decay, it takes hours of non stop combat to break anything. Fights right now seem to last about 1 to 2 mins (good length IMO) when people do normal skilled parries and manual dodging. That means you would have 100s of fights before you break a weapon, doesnt sound good. I think a Mod or high durability weapon should last about 10 fights. A Very high durability weapon should last 20 fights, and a low durability weapon should last about 2 fights. Plus 1/2 of there max fights they should do 1/2 damage of max pristine durability. You do have these tools in place to adjust these, and I think that would be a good starting point. Armor should last longer than a weapon on a per piece, but overall you should replace your armor at the same amount of fights times # of armor pieces. IE, if you have 15 pieces of armor, you should have to replace ALL your armor pieces once for Very High durability once every 20x15=300 fights. Which is on avg 1 armor piece every 20 fights.



I will add more, but its late and I cant think. I will be testing more tomorrow.
*** Great patch, it FEELS a lot more fun. ***

Derek
10-02-2011, 05:33 AM
I'm going to add to what MrDDT said in above post because I agree with all of what he has said.

(1) Animation speed is much better now. It seems like it could be a little faster. It would be great if this is the base speed. Then combat skill and agility skill could increase this speed by maybe 10-15% faster at skill cap. But overall, this speed feels much better than the previous iteration.

(2) Weapon damage looks much better now. I was hitting for between 4-7 damage on a coyote with my preorder dissector.

(3) Parry is becoming more useful now. I agree with what MrDDT said in the post above about parry. It just needs tweaking to have more incentive to parry in the correct direction.

(4) It is difficult to tell from the animation which direction an animal mob is attacking from. If most animals always attack front low, then ok, otherwise make the animation more pronounced. Maybe include the location of damage taken in the combat log so players know where to block for certain mobs if say mule deer always attack front low. I assume undead mobs will attack from a variety of angles and this will be much clearer to the user from the back swing animation.

(5) Stamina drain is better now although I believe it still needs adjustment to be less costly. I think this is part of a bigger issue where stamina drain needs to be balanced for all actions. It is my hunch that if we took a player poll, most players would say they are resting way too much in game whether in or out of combat. Like MrDDT said, we either need a good way of regenerating stamina or just make it less costly. This last iteration was a step in the right direction but needs more tweaking in my opinion. Sprint drain rate does seem about right though.

For issues 6, 7 and 8, I know parry and swing combo issues are still being worked on but I'll list them anyway just for reference:
(6) There is still some issues when trying to switch from one direction to another when holding a swing or parrying. I use to do drills in Mount and Blade to warm up for battle by holding attacks in different directions in succession and then the same for parry. I would then hold parry, switch to holding a swing, and then back to holding a parry in all different directions. I did all of this without releasing an attack. This allows fluid transition from faking a swing in one direction then switching to another for attack or faking a parry then moving to a strike. It keeps the opponent guessing and adds great depth to the melee system. See video below showing melee switching of direction at time 1:38-1:43. If I try to do this in Xsyon for one weapon, it releasing the swing before I try and switch to another direction. I think all that is needed is a check during the first quarter of the melee swing animation to see if the user is holding another direction for melee swing or parry.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=98s

(7) There is a bug in combat mouse mode where I hold a swing then hold a parry while holding a swing. When I let go of parry it releases the swing even though I am still holding the swing. This does not happen in default settings.

(8) You cannot start by holding parry and stop parry by holding a swing. In other words, you cannot do the reverse of what you can do now which is hold a swing then stop the swing by holding the parry and then go back to holding the swing because you never released the swing button.

(9) Once the dev team looks at adding special melee skills, one should definitely be some sort of parry breaking skill like crushing blow or a kick.

(10) Maybe make the radius bigger as players and mobs get closer for the UI to decide whether or not to display the health bar.

Lastly, I want to congratulate the dev team for working hard on these combat tweaks and listening to feedback. It is really coming along now.

Drevar
10-02-2011, 07:58 AM
I was the unskilled toon that DDT tested with. Most of our testing was purely technical and number crunching as #1 I am totally not combat oriented on my skills or stats (and there was no guide on to manipulate our stats/skills) and #2 I pretty much suck at FPS style fighting. He will need someone of equal hard number skill and l33t mouse skills to test the true flow of combat.

The swing speed for everything I used felt decent except unarmed. My agility isn't great so I can see that being a factor, but I still felt like I was punching slower than with my knives. A slow attack speed really hurts if you are trying to use mouse mode. Since you are limited to 1 handed attacks in this mode you lose 50% of your dps vs using both hands to attack. I also noticed that if I attack with my preorder knife in one hand and a normal blade in the other, I have to wait for the ultra slow animation of the pre order to finish before I can get off another swing with my other hand. Using two normal blades is much faster as I don't have the delay.

Stamina drain didn't seem to be much affected by encumbrance, only swing power. If you are overweighted and try to move a lot, though, that will drain you quickly, so it may be fine as is.

It would be nice to have the swing power indicator actually somewhere near where I am watching the action rather than the tiny bar at the near bottom of the screen. Something more like the crafting countdown bar.


One reason why I just can't bring myself to bother to "get good" with this system is 90% of the time I can't see where the hell I am going to swing through the twitchy camera movement. Need a reticle or some kind of highlight on the body part being aimed at. Uberd00ds may not need it, but I don't see myself bothering to fight when I simply cannot use the system we have to try and defend myself. Accessibility needs to be a big consideration. The best hardcore fighting system in the world won't get everyone involved if we can't make heads or tails what the heck is going on in the fight.

MrDDT
10-03-2011, 12:36 AM
Current system doesnt really promote parrying well.
I see a lot of people doing "drive by" attacking. Meaning they will charge in with a full attack ready, and run out before the defender can get the counter attack. Unless the defender is using a fast weapon like a fist or a knife they cant really get a hit off.
Also the defender would have to be very good at parrying to even gain the advantage from many of these attacks.
Like I said before, needs to be a bigger bonus for parrying 100% correctly, and the attacker for seeing where the defender in parrying and being able to counter it. 50% damage isnt much of a counter.

I would like to see a better dynimac also for this combat, right now its all just swings and parries (really not much parries because of the lacking of a major bonus). Still circle fighting is happening (This will always happen to a point) because you want to stay out of the attack arc of the person you are fighting, so each will try to circle around.

Still issue with a large attacker attacking a smaller attacker as they have a hard time seeing what the smaller person is doing due to their body being in the way.
Ranges seem to be ok, but likely should be balanced based on the weapon a bit more (IE Axes doing more range because they do less damage and same speed as clubs those types of things) knives are still going to be a great weapon of choice in these battles due to charge up time. I also think we can cut off about 15 to 20% off the charge up time, its a bit slow. Same damage, but less time to get full charge.

Stamina regen is a problem, no real choices to save stamina here other than standing still. Need better choices in food and water types, with maybe potions and other things to help here.
Same with HP regen. If you are low HP, you have no choice but to run and hope the attacker doesnt follow or have more stamina. Because you need to stop moving to heal up and it takes a about 1 to 2.5mins to do this.

All in all the combat feels a lot better. I think with special attacks, like knockdowns and long thrusts it can be quite fun and get your blood pumping. I like how long fights are lasting, We tested HP a little with GuideMihr setting our HP and skills, I can see where skills and armor and HP matter, but good players will over come this, and others will make sure they use every armor and weapon bonus they can to get the edge.

I fought Tara on the test server (she isnt that great with combat) and I had slightly less HP, 25% lower skills than her, she was in bone I was naked, and both had the same type of weapons.
Using Spam attacking fighting. (No parries for me or her) She killed me very fast, and I got her down about 25% (75% left).
Using Charge in attacks (no parries but full charge drive by attacks), I beat her with a me about 1/2 HP. (Did this a few times)

I put on bone armor, everything else the same. It was a close fight but I won. Using spam attacking fighting. (No parries for me or her)
Using Charge in attacks (no parries but full charge drive by attacks), I beat her with a me about 2/3 HP Left, and a few times better. (Did this a few times)
I tried to parry her, parrying 100% of the attacks by taking only 50% or 0% of the damage, and trying to get attacks in, and I lost big time.(Did this a few times) I would say I parried 100% about 1/2 the time, and 50% the other 1/2. Problem here was even when I got a good 100% parry in, I couldnt get an attack off without her either still attacking at full damage, or me going back into a fast parry and taking .5 damage while only hitting her for a minor amount (due to her skills being higher it was losing battle).

Stamina didnt become an issue in ANY of the fights, however, a few I did run down to about 50% stamina. So I think that is pretty good. I think people running around like crack heads wont be as big of a deal due to this.


I would like to test this with well skilled players, that parry and dodge attacks better. I'm not being mean to these players as they know they are not focused on combat, I talked to most at length after each fight.

I cant give more feedback til then, but it feels a lot better.

To sum this up. I think parry needs to have more of an effect when you do 100% parry vs the attacker, and the attacker needs more choice when they see the target doing a parry to get an advantage. Right now parry seems not to be used very much.
Also I would like to see stamina and healing regen options for combatants.


Good work on armor, I think its still not effective enough but we can tweak that later, weapon QL and Dura surely make a difference. Stats for STR do make a difference. I didnt notice AGI or not. I would like to do some more testing on that, I dont think it makes any difference on attack speeds right now so that makes me a sad panda. If it does its not something one would notice.

Good job guys, I cant wait for the patch tomorrow.

MrDDT
10-04-2011, 01:40 PM
After more testing.

I think that attack swings overall are a good speed. (Preorders are slow as heck, as they should be due to the damage they do). But one thing I noticed is that AFTER you release your mouse, your weapon is attacking (or releasing) slowly. I think this could be sped up a lot and not really effect the defenders chance to parry, due to mostly they should be parrying in the draw back of the swing, and not the incoming attack. If its a problem for parry, then make the draw back slightly slower.
Reason for this is because right now on slower weapons, you have to let go of your mouse long before you have the target in your X hairs. Making it so that attackers will do charge in charge out attacks more often.


Also as I said before, parry 100% correct dir should yield a better reward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=92s
If you watch that video and watch where the attacker is parried their attacks reel them back for a split second. This allows the defender to do something or extra time to charge up or whatever to get an edge on the attacker when they parry correctly.

Also I would like to see more feedback when you hit a target, or are parried. It just feels like people are swinging away.

Again stamina use looks good right now, however, no choices in combat to do anything about HP or stamina when you are low.

Derek
10-04-2011, 03:40 PM
To reiterate what MrDDT said in the above post about the need to reward players for successful parries in the correct direction - see the M&B tutorial at time=5:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=323s. This video breaks it down perfectly:

Spam attacks:
-No matter the weapon speed difference
-No matter how much you spin your mouse
-No matter where you are standing...
If the other person swings back after a block/parry immediately, you must block or you will be hit!

This is exactly the type of advantage we need in Xsyon for a successful parry or block. I think the simplest way to do this is by giving the defender a fully charged adrenaline bar right after a successful parry that lasts 1 to 2 seconds. Then adjust the animations so that the rules listed above holds true.

This will require a short cooldown animation added to the person who had his/her attack parried. The animation can show the weapon kicking back as shown at t=5:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=337s

Adding this feature would not only reward skilled players for well timed blocks and parries but also make for a more engaging melee combat system.

MrDDT
10-04-2011, 04:44 PM
To reiterate what MrDDT said in the above post about the need to reward players for successful parries in the correct direction - see the M&B tutorial at time=5:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=323s. This video breaks it down perfectly:

Spam attacks:
-No matter the weapon speed difference
-No matter how much you spin your mouse
-No matter where you are standing...
If the other person swings back after a block/parry immediately, you must block or you will be hit!

This is exactly the type of advantage we need in Xsyon for a successful parry or block. I think the simplest way to do this is by giving the defender a fully charged adrenaline bar right after a successful parry that lasts 1 to 2 seconds. Then adjust the animations so that the rules listed above holds true.

This will require a short cooldown animation added to the person who had his/her attack parried. The animation can show the weapon kicking back as shown at t=5:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=337s

Adding this feature would not only reward skilled players for well timed blocks and parries but also make for a more engaging melee combat system.


I think 1/2 adrenaline , that way they can charge it if they want. Full energy bar is pretty harsh. What I dont want to see is 2 people standing around waiting for the other to attack so they can parry haha.

But ya, we are talking about minor diff vs 1/2 to full anyways. Key like you say is reward players for parrying else they wont use it. 0 damage is a reward, but the attacker loses nothing. Thus nothing is gained by parrying, only nothing lost.





************************************************** *************
Having said that, I would like to see bigger sweep arcs on weapons. IE, Attacking from left to right, should hit someone to the left of you more and less to the right. Same goes for the other way. You can even make this even more extreme when someone using left arm to attack left to right, it should sweep out further to hit them but much less to the right.

Lets assume the current attack arcs are 80 degrees. This 80 degrees is always focused in the center of the attacker no matter what. (This is the current).
What I propose is to shift that arc based on which arm they use, and which DIR they are attacking from.

So right now think of it like this like a clock or 360 degrees with 0 being perfectly in front of the attacker. Right now, the 80 degree arc is 320, to 40 degrees. This can be if you attack with your left or right arm, left to right attacks or right to left attacks. (all attacks even overhead, low attacks, and trusts).

What I think should happen is if you use a Low, overhead, and thrust attack with your:
Left arm it shifts this arc from 320 to 40, to 300 to 20 degrees.
Right arm it shifts this arc from 320 to 40, to 340 to 60 degrees.


What I think should happen is if you use a left to right attack attack with your:
Left arm 280 to 0 degrees.
Right arm 0 to 80 degrees.


This will allow targets to be hit off to the side and help control the need to spin around as much, also allowing attackers to choose attacks based on which side the target is attacking from. My main reason for saying this is currently, if you swing your weapon from right to left with the target on the right side of you, the weapon will go right through them. Also if you swing your weapon with the target slightly off to the left of you, the weapon wont look like it even hits them yet the target will be hit.
************************************************** *********

Should I post that in suggestions?

Derek
10-04-2011, 07:00 PM
I think 1/2 adrenaline
Yep, that is probably more balanced.

MrDDT
10-04-2011, 07:04 PM
Yep, that is probably more balanced.

I was thinking this from the other way around, its likely better to apply a debuff to the attacker, that way if you have more than one person attacking then the attacker feels those parries more, and its a bonus. Reason I think this, is that the defender could then parry, get a buff and attack someone else. When its really the attacker that should be debuffed.

So, Im thinking maybe like 1/2 defense debuff after having your attack parried.

Xsyon
10-04-2011, 07:23 PM
Thanks for this detailed feedback!

I agree with the requested parry improvements. Some of this requires animations to be added and revised, so it will take a few days to get to the Test Server.

I need to think about how we can test the split in an animation between the 'draw back' and the 'release' portion of the animation without adjusting the actual animations every time. Right now animation speeds are being adjusted in the code. Once we're satisfied with the balance, they will be remade to the correct timing and only slightly adjusted in the code based on the player's agility.

We will add attacks to all players within the weapons swing range / arc. This will alleviate the difficultly of one player taking on several in battle.

Thanks again. We'll have more changes up soon!

MrDDT
10-04-2011, 07:37 PM
Sounds good.

About the "draw back" and "release" time. Maybe it can be more something where the weapon's speed doesnt change with AGI, but AGI effects how fast you can attack again.
IE, if you have low AGI you have to wait 200ms between attacks, while someone with high AGI wont have to wait at all.