Why should HP be based of levels gained?

[Mactavendish]

Doing it this way gives an advantage to those that can play much more than others.

Now, where as I think folks that put in the effort should gain the rewards, atm its a very mindless method.

All anyone has to do is level a craft or skill. Most crafts can be leveled very quickly and this leads to folks using programmable keyboards to afk craft. Get a bunch 100 and you are very hard to kill.

Let's also think about what will happen with stat/skill decay.

If it is like that talked about in Beta, then I would expect that as your skills decay and you settle on the ones you really want to maintain, that your HP would decay along with skills so that those with HIGH HP will be brought more in line with those that cannot play as much.

However, Has there been ANY mention of HP decaying? It's been assumed that it would decay, but is that actually the plan? If not, then what is the point? It still leaves a few players with inflated HP running around.

I sure don't want to play a game that is supposed to be a survival game, and know that some guy with no life outside of playing computer games, can run over me just because he can play more than I.

It should require skill and knowledge. As it is, with a person like that, there is no real change for success against them nor is it a fun competition... it is just boring.

[fatboy21007]

i agree with this overall. This isnt a tanking game, PvP should require skill, their is no skill standing still holdin a button for a max hit, Speciall no skill is ya got 382490 hps (i know that many isnt ingame just saying). Hps should not rise in this game, Only the dmgs ya do, and even that should have a cap. No one should be god ingame, if its 2 vs one and the 2 are skilled u should go down quick, it shouldnt take 5-10 people to down 1 person, Were not doing raids and using players as bosses here. Hps is a big thing that needs shrank and caped and again with skill/stat decay all skills should be reset with a limited amount of points given back, to force every1 to pick their trades and not allow the 100s accross the board to have their edge. I know they worked hard for it, but this is unfair to any new players or returning. This simply forces trade and to decide what you will do ingame.

[MrDDT]

I'm not sure if I see any solution posted here, but Ive already talked about this before.

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/project.php?issueid=1210

Here is a link to one of my ideas. But I would like to see more opinions. HP tied to crafting and all other skills isnt what I would call the best idea. It forces all combat types to level up every skill in the game to compete. I would rather see it tied to combat skills.

[Book]

Doesn't it give crafters a better chance if their non-pvp activities raise their health and HP?

I can understand where you guys are coming from. If Joe Superman uses his strength to intimidate and bully, it gets old quick.

Right now, people can choose to level everything to 100. Doesn't mean you have to though. There are things I'm not even touching as it's not necessarily in keeping with the character I'm building. I trade for those things. It's just a personal choice I think. Personally I find it way more fun to be helpful to a good community and wind up being offered help in return.

Some level everything to 100 out of voracious appetite, some grew up in a gaming environment where numbers are the end-all of accomplishment, some are ultra-competitive and yes... some unfortunately and mistakenly confuse instilling fear with gaining respect. They lose my respect in the process but hey, whatever.

In SWG, I didn't like having constraints on what my toon could learn. I wanted the freedom to build exactly the type of character I wanted, and that was already a fairly free sandbox in that regard.

The less constraints placed on how we develop our in-game lives the better I think. Even if that means having to deal with a sad apple or two.

[MrDDT]

No matter what you will have people with higher HP than others. What system would you like to use?
Toons start with more HP than others without even doing anything in game.

I'm not sure what you would like to see done. Also, combat players might not level everything to 100. The point is that to be the best you would have to. Not only would combat players have to level all the combat skills but also all the crafting skills.

Combat players shouldnt have to level any crafting skills at all to be good in combat.

[fatboy21007]

Hps shouldnt be raised at all! skill decay/stat decay needs to be on everything all crafting and pvp, with caps. for combat i do see gaining more dmgs n that, but hps, nahh doesnt work here.

[MrDDT]

Hps shouldnt be raised at all! skill decay/stat decay needs to be on everything all crafting and pvp, with caps. for combat i do see gaining more dmgs n that, but hps, nahh doesnt work here.

Why shouldnt HP increased at all? All other types of stuff are. Do you also believe everyone should start with the same HP too?

[Book]

Also, combat players might not level everything to 100. The point is that to be the best you would have to. Not only would combat players have to level all the combat skills but also all the crafting skills.


Being the best comes with a price I suppose, and of course "best" is relative.

This isn't really a cut and dry pewpew-you die-I ween-type of game. Dumbing it down to that level is really doing it a disservice.

[Jadzia]

I agree, the current system is really not the best one. It forces players to grind skills they wouldn't touch otherwise, and probably doesn't enjoy leveling it. That's bad for the player and the economy and bad for new players too.

I think only one skill should raise HP. People can level whatever skill they want to, but only the highest one should determine their HP. If someone has 5 skills maxed or 10, he would still have the same HP as someone with 1 maxed skill.

[MrDDT]

I agree, the current system is really not the best one. It forces players to grind skills they wouldn't touch otherwise, and probably doesn't enjoy leveling it. That's bad for the player and the economy and bad for new players too.

I think only one skill should raise HP. People can level whatever skill they want to, but only the highest one should determine their HP. If someone has 5 skills maxed or 10, he would still have the same HP as someone with 1 maxed skill.


I dont agree with this at all. A person with Tailoring as their main skill shouldnt be equal to someone who has Clubs or Terraforming as their main skill.

If you going to do a system like you say 1 skill to rule them all for HP then it should effect the outcome of the HP. Meaning if Tailoring is your main skill, then you should have low HP. If Clubs is your main skill you should have high HP.

I would hate to see a master tailor out there tanking the hardest mobs because they have a 100 in a skill and crap for combat.

I see no problems with if you level up combat skills you get more HP than others who doesnt. I dont think it should be bad as it is now where you should level up all the combat skills. I think 2 skills in combat should be very close to all skills in combat. Meaning if you have 2 skills at 100 in combat, you should 90% as much HP as someone with all 10 of them at 100.

[Mactavendish]

I can kinda see FB's point, but will say that if HP increases it should top out to a cap any player could reach, NOT just those that can play 12-18 hours a day.

This is billed as a survival game.

So I would expect your survival and success in this game to how much time you devote to surviving not mindless grinding.

So, My though would be that your HP could be based off how well you are doing personally. The less thirsty/hungry/tired/encumbered you are and the more comfortable you are the higher your hp is towards a cap.

This way, crafting lots of levels only affects the quality/durability/damage/bonus an item has.. as it should. And it won't affect HP as it should not.

Damage levels should go up with how high your combat skills are. HP should NOT go up from combat leveling.

The combined effects will be ANYONE can get their HP to the same capped high level, and only quality of weapon and combat skills will give any advantage, and comfort level ( including hunger/thirst/etc.. ) will determine how much damage you can take.

THIS is what I would like to see and would agree with.

[MrDDT]

What about stats?

[Mactavendish]

What about them?

Adding str should come from any activity that requires physical effort.. be that masonry, terraforming or armed combat. All have an equal opportunity to excel.

I am not unhappy with the gains from these activities atm, and don't immediately see any problems.. BUT perhaps I'm missing something?

If stats make a HUGE difference, then they too should have a cap based upon actual effort to balance it.

An old saying goes, "it is not always the swift that wins the race nor is it the strongest that wins the battle." This is true in reality, because sometimes the swift depend too much on prowess and not enough on planning an efficient route, nor do the strongest always win, due to them fighting a smarter opponent.

So Putting all players on as even a footing as possible adds to the enjoyment of all. The only ones that will argue against balance are those that don't want an equal competition. Such ones have to be right, always win, and seek to disrupt equality.

[MrDDT]

What about them?

Adding str should come from any activity that requires physical effort.. be that masonry, terraforming or armed combat. All have an equal opportunity to excel.

I am not unhappy with the gains from these activities atm, and don't immediately see any problems.. BUT perhaps I'm missing something?

If stats make a HUGE difference, then they too should have a cap based upon actual effort to balance it.

An old saying goes, "it is not always the swift that wins the race nor is it the strongest that wins the battle." This is true in reality, because sometimes the swift depend too much on prowess and not enough on planning an efficient route, nor do the strongest always win, due to them fighting a smarter opponent.

So Putting all players on as even a footing as possible adds to the enjoyment of all. The only ones that will argue against balance are those that don't want an equal competition. Such ones have to be right, always win, and seek to disrupt equality.


I dont like even footing thing, because then why level anything at all? I mean if you want even footing why have skills at all in game? Just have it FPS counter-strike style.

Stats have little effect on HP. I believe they should have a larger effect on HP.

Also your problem with "skill of the player" is that players that are not great at FPS combat will always lose even to 1 day old players. These players would like to have effects that help them a little if they have trained up.

I would like to see both. HP closer to newer players HP. While still giving skill options to players who are good in combat.

If you look at the link I did about 10 replies back you will see that's what Ive been trying to do. Give people a chance to have higher HP using stats and training options. While still keeping it close to newer players. So newer players have a chance to kill vets, but vets should have the advantage. Just not as great as it is now.

In changing this, a lot of other options would need to be changed. Things like healing rates, healing options, stamina regen and stamina healing options. Without that, fights would be very bad. Ive explained all this before in other threads.

[Book]

Don't people who play more than others always have an advantage in a game? Even in an FPS, someone who plays a lot and has more practice will know the trajectory of each weapon better, react faster, know the map better... there are certain facets in which that's just unavoidable.

If the problem is that the current system leads to an overpowered player who uses that for nefarious purposes... that person would find a way to pester others regardless of what advantage he/she can find. It's a mindset. Paving junk, clearcutting, wiping out breeding animals... whatever. It's a nuisance, but I think it's beyond the scope of game design. It's like team-killers in an FPS. Nothing to gain but the frustration of others and that can always be accomplished in one way or another.

If the problem is that "King of the Hill 3" is coming up and it's already a foregone conclusion... well, competition generally involves loss, however frustrating as that may be. If there comes a point where nobody wants to bother, I'm sure some tweaking of some sorts that doesn't have to change basic mechanics can be thought up. Don't go dropping a nuke to kill a mouse.

[MrDDT]

I think the King of the Hill 3 event isnt really the problem, anyone can win that. Even a 1 day old player using tactics.

The problem is MrDDT is able to kill one of the hardest mobs in the game without dying or doing any special skills. Just stand there and attack non stop. There is no player skill or tactics, its a HP vs DPS game.

Andrew tried it, same tactics and he couldnt do it. Other players get killed in seconds. Monsters never miss, and standing still and attacking players dont either. So clearly there is a problem here. Where are the skills and tactics?

[Book]

I think the King of the Hill 3 event isnt really the problem, anyone can win that. Even a 1 day old player using tactics.

The problem is MrDDT is able to kill one of the hardest mobs in the game without dying or doing any special skills. Just stand there and attack non stop. There is no player skill or tactics, its a HP vs DPS game.

Andrew tried it, same tactics and he couldnt do it. Other players get killed in seconds. Monsters never miss, and standing still and attacking players dont either. So clearly there is a problem here. Where are the skills and tactics?

Wouldn't Andrew then need to find another solution? Is there no other solution? Any chance of circling the beast in some way?

MrDDT sounded pretty happy when the advert screenshots were going on. Excited that it was taking many people to kill large mutants with some people not making it.

The fact that MrDDT has such high HP versus PvE monsters can certainly make the game boring in the long run. Not sure the solution to that is nerfing his HP though. A more dynamic AI would be nice but probably not the easiest thing to implement. Haven't played with LISP much, and I'd assume those that do cost a lot.

A temporary solution would be to have some of the guides Raguel is looking to hire allowed to roam as mutant bears. Obviously would need the right kinds of folks in that role so inter-personal dislikes aren't carried over to the professional environment but I'd imagine a human brain behind a mutant bear body could perhaps bring some excitement back into it for DDT and others who have advanced to a very high level.

For those who can't stand still and win... for goodness's sakes, duck and cover or something.

Incidentally, the guide driven monster was implemented in Jumpgate back in '01. It really did lead to some good fun. Those monsters had a unique whale song that let you know what you're dealing with before you even see it. Got the blood pumping scurrying about. They weren't always the biggest and baddest and could be killed but threw something new into the mix.

[MrDDT]

That guide event would be cool too.
My point was that there should be more than HP vs DPS. Like you said cirlcing would be one option if it worked. Plus animals would need to be stronger.

Overal there is a lot more problems here than HP. Which is why the whole sysem needs to be looked at. Changing HP system without looking at the other reasons only changes a messed up system to another messed up system.

[Mactavendish]

At least this has lead to constructive dialog among all parties. :)

So I am happy with all this chatter going back and forth.

On a side note, yeah you may have spoken about this before, but I would rather not bring up old posts commented on by players no longer here.. thus the new threads.

[MrDDT]

Yeah much better to just talk to the few left playing than people that quit over broken systems.

These same things were said then. So you just talked about the same things they already said. So instead of posting a reply like always you make 3 or 4 threads. Pretty sure its breaking forum rules but guess only some people get in trouble for that.

Something should be done and it would be nice if they gave us ideas what they have planned.

I've asked about this in the q and a long ago. Still nothing changes.


Here is some more food for thought on the HP issue.



regarding character advancement.
- As it has been reported that char hps increases with levels, the char with the most skills trained, will be the highest level and will have the most hps, question: Once skill degradation is implemented, will it be possible to lose levels/hps as you lose skill levels?

You will not lose levels as that is simply a hidden stat to track overall skill gain through xp and has no other effect. There are no plans to have players lose hp, but these will be adjusted by stats and combat skills.

[Jadzia]

DDT, the thread you linked is not the same. Dezgard suggested the HP be based on combat skills levels, you suggested a similar system based on skill levels. The OP was about the HP not to be based on levels at all. And there was no conversation either, you posted and no one else. A new thread is very valid imo.

What if HP was stat based ?

[MrDDT]

Jadiza there is about 3 to 5 threads on this topic.

The link is a suggestion.

Currently HP is based on stats AND levels.

Are you trying to say that there should be a new thread simply because there is a small difference in that he doesnt want it based on levels, and others want it partly based on levels and partly based on stats thus a new thread needs to be made?

Sounds like i should get crackin on making new threads.

[Jadzia]

Jadiza there is about 3 to 5 threads on this topic.

The link is a suggestion.

Currently HP is based on stats AND levels.

Are you trying to say that there should be a new thread simply because there is a small difference in that he doesnt want it based on levels, and others want it partly based on levels and partly based on stats thus a new thread needs to be made?

Sounds like i should get crackin on making new threads.
There might be several threads about this. I've searched for the words 'HP based on', there was no thread about this topic on the first 3 pages. So even if they are there, not easy to find. There are some about combat, but there isn't one dedicated to HP.

I know HP is currently based on levels and stats. What I was asking was what if it was based on stats only ? Perhaps that would create a better system. Just an idea.

[MrDDT]

What is your idea?

[Liquidblade]

hum, I think hp should be equal for everyone, fighting skills make the difference on how fast you kill/defend. In real life we all have the same amount of life, its how good we use weapons (or defend) that gets us in or out of trouble.

[China]

Wouldn't Andrew then need to find another solution? Is there no other solution? Any chance of circling the beast in some way?

We don't really know if Andrew can do it or not. The one and only time he entered the "King of the Hill" event he crashed, and while his character was still in game, DDT proceeded to knock him down to less than 1/2 health before his character disappeared. When he relogged he was at a big disadvantage.

But to answer your other question, yes there are other stradegies or tactics that can be used.

China

[fatboy21007]

hum, I think hp should be equal for everyone, fighting skills make the difference on how fast you kill/defend. In real life we all have the same amount of life, its how good we use weapons (or defend) that gets us in or out of trouble.

Hey DDT this here is the winner!. Skill is wat wins pvp, not standing still tanking crap. SKills is wat wins! and their is none of that in the current combat system, Its how you said HPs VS DPS, when it should be DPS vs DPS may the better skilled player win. Personally everyone should have the same HP's no matter what. Gears-weapons should make the difference. When you play fps games everyones hps are the same, Its their skills that win or loose the battle, Xsyon needs this BADLY.

[MrDDT]

hum, I think hp should be equal for everyone, fighting skills make the difference on how fast you kill/defend. In real life we all have the same amount of life, its how good we use weapons (or defend) that gets us in or out of trouble.

Real life people do not have the same HP. Not sure where you getting that info. Try getting hit 1 with punch by Mike Tyson. Now look at other Boxers that take 100s of hits.



We don't really know if Andrew can do it or not. The one and only time he entered the "King of the Hill" event he crashed, and while his character was still in game, DDT proceeded to knock him down to less than 1/2 health before his character disappeared. When he relogged he was at a big disadvantage.

But to answer your other question, yes there are other stradegies or tactics that can be used.

China

You should go back and reread what was said. Not talking about King of the Hill event and Andrew crashing or not. Talking about him standing toe to toe with a 9 year old Shadow Bear and dying. While I was able to kill it without troubles. Severn died with barely taking it down to 1/2 life. Etc for the rest of the people.



Hey DDT this here is the winner!. Skill is wat wins pvp, not standing still tanking crap. SKills is wat wins! and their is none of that in the current combat system, Its how you said HPs VS DPS, when it should be DPS vs DPS may the better skilled player win. Personally everyone should have the same HP's no matter what. Gears-weapons should make the difference. When you play fps games everyones hps are the same, Its their skills that win or loose the battle, Xsyon needs this BADLY.


Player skill normally wins FPS games along with good teamwork and tactics.
If you are talking about FPS games, then you should toss armor, and weapons out the window also because everyone starts off with the same stuff.

FPS isnt the same as MMO's for a reason. People like chars able to build up. I'm not defending the current issues with the HP system. I still believe its way out of balance. However, I dont want to see people that logged in day one have nothing to shoot for. People should have to build up a little to do things they want. Just as we do with other skills in the game.

HP is only a small part of the factors that go into combat. Given even HP, do you think that you would be me in PVP in Xsyon? I doubt it, not saying Im great at PVP but there are many factors that allow me to win over you.

One thing I don't believe is that a Master Tailor should have equal HP as a Unarmed Master. Unless the tailor is also an Unarmed Master and tailors on the side.

With Xsyons vision he talked about skill pools. I think simply adding these pools will help a lot, and factoring in peoples HP based on that. If skill pools were in the game right now, you wouldnt be as drastic because people would have a lot less levels.

I think removing HP from level XP system is needed. I do however, think it should be more based on stats and combat skills than anything else.

[Mactavendish]

That's totally cool...

And it looks like few of us disagree with you... that's cool too.

Now lets see how he answers this question.

[joexxxz]

hum, I think hp should be equal for everyone, fighting skills make the difference on how fast you kill/defend. In real life we all have the same amount of life, its how good we use weapons (or defend) that gets us in or out of trouble.

100 % percent agree with you +1 :) HP should be the same for everyone, but what armor you wear, should affect your overall HP.

Added after 5 minutes:


Real life people do not have the same HP. Not sure where you getting that info. Try getting hit 1 with punch by Mike Tyson. Now look at other Boxers that take 100s of hits.

I Don't agree with you on this one. Try hit Mike Tyson with a hammer or axe, and he WILL DIE.

[MrDDT]

100 % percent agree with you +1 :) HP should be the same for everyone, but what armor you wear, should affect your overall HP.

Added after 5 minutes:


I Don't agree with you on this one. Try hit Mike Tyson with a hammer or axe, and he WILL DIE.

Ive been hit with a hammer and an axe, and I didnt die. Real life story too.

[joexxxz]

Ive been hit with a hammer and an axe, and I didnt die. Real life story too.

Now thats some bullshit. How hard and where? On the head, with a full blow, or you were nailing something and you hit your finger? lol

[MrDDT]

Foot with axe (more like the leg and foot), and many times with a hammer all over the place. Hammers dont even hurt much. Ive even had a hammer drop right on my head with no hard hat on.

My point is that you would be knocked out with 1 hit from Mike most likely, unless you were toughened up. While boxers who train and get tough wouldnt. Unless it was just a well placed hit, and they were doing something wrong.

Hit points is a computer game's way to saying how much punishment your body overall can take. Last I checked people can die from 1 small knife hit to the chest. While other people can live through 100s of knife stabbings.

[joexxxz]

Right, its means where and how the damage occurred. But it doesnt mean that the HP should be way off like it is now. I totally hated the way it was in WOW. If you level 70 and Iam level 1, and Im using a sword, there is no way that I can kill level 70 character using a SWORD or an AXE. Even level 70 character didnt had any armor on.

[MrDDT]

Right, its means where and how the damage occurred. But it doesnt mean that the HP should be way off like it is now. I totally hated the way it was in WOW. If you level 70 and Iam level 1, and Im using a sword, there is no way that I can kill level 70 character using a SWORD or an AXE. Even level 70 character didnt had any armor on.


If you look at the link I made for suggestions. It says pretty much what you just said. That HP should be closer, but there is room for growth.

I dont believe players should have 10 or 15x more HP than a new player. However, I also dont believe a new player should have the same starting HP as a person that has been around for months/years.

Also I believe that some crafters should have less HP than combat players.

If you are a tailor, you likely wont have much HP, unless you also are a combat toon.

If you are a blacksmith, or a hunter (hunting skill) you would tend to be more rugged, and have more HP, but likely not as much as a trained Warrior in the arts of Axes and Unarmed combat.

[VeryWiiTee]

Frrom my understanding this would work like combat damage works.

The higher the skill the higher the damage, if the skill falls the damage falls with it.. I'd suspect HP would do the same?

[Jadzia]

Foot with axe (more like the leg and foot), and many times with a hammer all over the place. Hammers dont even hurt much. Ive even had a hammer drop right on my head with no hard hat on.

My point is that you would be knocked out with 1 hit from Mike most likely, unless you were toughened up. While boxers who train and get tough wouldnt. Unless it was just a well placed hit, and they were doing something wrong.

Hit points is a computer game's way to saying how much punishment your body overall can take. Last I checked people can die from 1 small knife hit to the chest. While other people can live through 100s of knife stabbings.
In hand-to-hand combat you might be right. But if there are weapons involved, no personal strength or combat skills count when someone is hit. A person may die if he is hit by the head by an axe while another one survives...but it doesn't depend on if they were trained for combat or not, more of their genes. Avoiding hits do depend on combat training, but the surviving of the hits doesn't. So to have the same HP for everyone should be considered imo. A warrior will have a huge advantages against a tailor anyway, due to his higher DPS.

[MrDDT]

In hand-to-hand combat you might be right. But if there are weapons involved, no personal strength or combat skills count when someone is hit. A person may die if he is hit by the head by an axe while another one survives...but it doesn't depend on if they were trained for combat or not, more of their genes. Avoiding hits do depend on combat training, but the surviving of the hits doesn't. So to have the same HP for everyone should be considered imo. A warrior will have a huge advantages against a tailor anyway, due to his higher DPS.


Genes = stats IMO

Untrained fighters would be knocked out a lot faster than a trained one. Your body can take more punishment when its trained and able to take the beatings.

HP is simply a gaming tool used to measure when someone is knocked out or killed.
Yes getting stabbed through the eye into your brain can kill you with a needle.

Others can take a bat to the head and walk away unphased.

If they want to base it on stats only, thats fine also, I dont think that all people have the same HP. Because there is no way it takes the same amount to knock someone out as it does another.

Avoiding hits does depend on combat training, however, having the body from the training to do it is also required. If you sat pushing papers all your life never working out and letting your body go, you will not be able to dodge attacks, even if you knew what to do.


DPS is a totally different topic. Yes people that know how to use a weapon will do more damage. As would people with stronger arms or faster reactions.

[Jadzia]

Genes = stats IMO

Untrained fighters would be knocked out a lot faster than a trained one. Your body can take more punishment when its trained and able to take the beatings.


Stats as genes...not really. We can't train our genes, nor can we make them any better.

Your body can be as trained as it can get, if you are hit with an axe it doesn't matter at all.

[MrDDT]

Stats as genes...not really. We can't train our genes, nor can we make them any better.

Your body can be as trained as it can get, if you are hit with an axe it doesn't matter at all.

I should say genes effect stats. Like your genes are kinda like your starting stats.

[Liquidblade]

well one thing is for sure MIke Tyson trained hard to be able to punch like that and take the hits TOO!!! otherwise he would just an average guy..

[Mactavendish]

Again it should all depend on what a player is willing to do .

Running the thing out a bit...

All players would have the ability to reach the same base HP as any other player through a combination of craft and combat... ( much like it is now )

Even a casual player could max his HP and would know what his HP are.

Now things like level of opponents armor ( mitigation to damage ) + level of specific combat skill in use ( potential damage amount ) + Quality of weapon ( Base damage amount ) = Damage done.

Removing hp out of this equation does a number of positive things for the game...

1. Promotes making the best armor.
2. Encourages players to level skills.
3. Promotes making the best weapons.

So I totally disagree with you ddt.

HP is the amount of damage you can take here.

Armor and avoidance should determine that instead.

Training combat skills should add to the amount of potential damage you can do and add to stats like str or fortitude.
Training Crafts like terra, masonry, and logging should do the very same thing, add to str and fort, NOT add to HP.
Training other crafts like arch, tailor or leather should add to dex and intell and maybe percpt.

HP should be tied to your state of health, such as hunger, thirst, and comfort. Make those as high as you can can keep them and that determines your HP.

What this all ultimately does is make it very possible to have a newer player kill a vet because the new player has purchased a supreme weapon, and great armor, has maxed his comfort/hunger/thirst to have max HP , and the vet decided to depend on his skill alond and was in craft clothes at the time.

Think about it. The vet gets taught a lesson, and the new player is able to get items as loot that he never would have if we keep the system like it is.

How is this not a win for all concerned?

[MrDDT]

Currently this system we have already does the 3 things you listed.

1) Promotes making and using the best armor
2) Encourages players to level skills, even more than your system.
3) Promotes making the best weapons.

I see no reason why removing HP would change any of those 3 factors, in fact it makes #2 less of a factor.

I agree training combat skills should add to the amount of damage you do, and adding to combat stats.
I agree that crafts like masonry, bonecrafting, and even leather crafting. Should add to str, however, I also think they should add to HP
Terraforming is an action skill and logging is not a crafting skill a gathering skill. Again I think they should add to stats like str, and fort, AND hp.
Training crafts like tailoring, and basketry shouldnt have anything or much to do with HP, however they should be more focused on dex.

VET thats trained in combat, would still kill a new player. Because of the skills even in your way of skill being more DPS only and nothing to do with HP.


I dont see how the new player would kill the vet? Anymore than a new player killing a vet now. Yes there is a huge gap because of HP and skills. However, there is still a gap with out the HP and only skills.

My thoughts is close the gap yes. But it doesnt have to remove the HP factor from that. It just shouldnt be 10x more HP than a new player.

Ive seen new players kill vets now that have 2x the HP the new players have. Your making the same point but you are saying you have to remove HP with levels to do it. Im simply saying you just need to remove the huge gap and make it closer. Instead of being 10x more HP, and 5x more damage. Make it 2x more HP, and 3x more damage.

I would even like to see armor have more of an effect, Ive stated that months ago when they did combat changes.

Added after 1 43 minutes:

Really simple. Just have Xsyon put it to a vote. Ive talked to 10s of people about this, and they think its funny how you guys are saying HPs should all be the same.

I mean, I see no difference in HP being the same for a new player and all skills being the same.

If you dont want skills to effect HP, lets put it to a vote.

I only ask that, the vote be made by a mod, with choices that not only say your choice, but mine too. Which is HP should be effected by skills, but the gap should be less than 15x more HP for a vet than a newb.

[joexxxz]

I will vote for this.
Base HP = 100. Which is new player HP.
Combat VET HP +10% = 110 at maximum. Means, the maximum it can go.
Combat beginer HP +2%-5% = 102 - 105.
Agility for Combat VET +25% max, this is just an estimation.
Strength for Combat VET +100 % max, how hard can you hit. , this is just an estimation.

Examples:
Leather Armor type(1).
Defense against bare arms/legs 100 HP.
Defense against axes 10 HP.
Defense against swords 10 HP.
Agility bonus +30 %
Heat bonus +30%
Energy drainage 15%

Iron Armor type(1).
Defense against bare arms/legs 200 HP.
Defense against axes 70 HP.
Defense against swords 50 HP.
Agility bonus -30 %
Heat bonus -30%
Energy drainage +45%, how fast will the energy be depleted

Cloth Armor type(1).
Defense against bare arms/legs 50 HP.
Defense against axes 0 HP.
Defense against swords 0 HP.
Agility bonus +50 %
Heat bonus +0%
Energy drainage +5%

NO Armor or clothes.
Defense against bare arms/legs 40 HP.
Defense against axes 0 HP.
Defense against swords 0 HP.
Agility bonus +60 %
Heat bonus -15%
Energy drainage 0%

[Mactavendish]

10s 0f people in this game agree with you? or people outside of this game?

I thought there were only 50 people playing now... ;P

I agree put it to a vote, or jordi should tell us to just shuttup and do what he wants.

Why do you feel that a vet should have HP advantage? You don't believe in your skills? Effort should be involved.. simply giving away damage mitigation just because you have been here longer is an easy button.

The mere fact you are a vet shoudl mean you alrteady have greater skill and the ability to make better gear. THAT is your advantage.. not a lame and inflated HP pool.

[MrDDT]

10s 0f people in this game agree with you? or people outside of this game?

I thought there were only 50 people playing now... ;P

I agree put it to a vote, or jordi should tell us to just shuttup and do what he wants.

Why do you feel that a vet should have HP advantage? You don't believe in your skills? Effort should be involved.. simply giving away damage mitigation just because you have been here longer is an easy button.

The mere fact you are a vet shoudl mean you alrteady have greater skill and the ability to make better gear. THAT is your advantage.. not a lame and inflated HP pool.


Same reason I believe that people that work up skills should yield better QL items. Its called Character Progression. Giving some things for people to look/work forward to.

I dont base this around what I can or cant do. It's about what I think would be fun for the players wanting to play the game, and the over all fun of the game. If I were to only think of myself, I likely would come out with very bias opinions like you have shown here.

Being that I likely have the strongest toon in game right now, I would be asking for no changes at all. However, I'm not. I believe new players should have a better chance, or less disparity from a vet. I do believe vets should have advantages as they have worked for them, and it gives people reasons to shoot for better toons, training, and goals.

Right now I have almost 10x more HP than a new player, that's a large gap to over come, I see no reason why the gap shouldnt be like 2x to 4x.

[Mactavendish]

Fine I don't care anymore Daniel.

On second thought...

I do care.

If the common foe for players will be other players, then to make it fun for all ... not just a select few that have the opportunity to play many more hours than the average player, we really need to remove HP out of the equation to level the field a bit.

Armor, skills and how well you have worked on your stats will be plenty of an advantage for any avid player.

I feel sure that the reason MrDDT does not like this is he, in reality, wants the gap between vets and new players as big as possible.

Is that What Jordi had in mind all along? If so, then this game will eventually be made up ONLY of vet players that have spent thousands of hours building their toons. Sounds like a few of the other games out there he is trying to be different from, so I doubt that is his plan.

HE has said repeatedly that he wants hardcore and casual players here in the same world. Wants PVP and PVE players to exist even side by side.

I'm sure he envision's the hardcore players fighting among themselves, and the pve players building and conduction trading and hunting. Something for everyone.

Atm, Players like MrDDT have no hardcore players to war with. Expansion totems will help to resolve that problem.

In the mean time, Many of the rest of us are enjoying the other sides of the game.

[Dubanka]

i think we argued months (and months) ago that it was stupid for hps to tie to level gain (promotes macroing, etc. since levesl come from 'crafting' exp).

maybe your hps should increase slightly if you stay full, or decrease if you starve for prolonged periods.

if you want to increase your hps, do stuff that increases your fort....doesnt make any lick of sense that increasing yoru skill at toolcrafting would make your more durable.

.shrug. i don't play...but it's kinda common sense.

[Deatu]

Your assumptions are wrong Mac. I can say with great confidence that your assumptions about the disparity between the casual and starting characters vs. vets are convoluted. Its simply the way the game is designed right now. These problems should have been addressed in pre-release. DDT, myself and others have lauded at the very same issues that upset you as well. We feel it's imbalanced right now too, however you cannot stop the snowball. You can't go back and fundementaly reprogram the game and say, "Whoops, sorry. You guys are WAY too powerful." No, you need to buff the new player. This very thing happened in EvE after 3 years of consistent and devout players logging in at weird hours to change skills, starting with WAY less than the original player base. What did they do? They gave starter players 4x the starting experience than the older vets. They also sped up the initial basic training, cutting that disparity of experience down drastically. Was it the right thing to do? In EvE, yes... to the the majority. Will it work here? Maybe.

Take a look at CCP's youtube videos, they have a TON of behind the scenes on their company about balancing, upcoming features, player politics and the likes. The transparity of CCP's backstage antics rings to a very similar tune to NG's. Take notes, take a nap, take it easy.

[fatboy21007]

folks, were all old farts around here, Reason animal as easy is pretty simple, are hps are too high, Lower are hps to that of a starting character and guess what?, those very same animals will be very challenging, pvp would be equal grounds ( besides the fact of sum that have high combat skills, then ofc they got the dmg advantage). I personally dont think you shouldn't get raised hps in this game. THis is survival after all, atm theirs a few ingame who dont have to worry about it. I miss the days of launch, Where is was equal fighting, when ya roaming around and some1 tried to attack ya, you actually stood a chance 1 vs 1. Hell even seen few take only 5 at a time and win all due to skill with the ole keyboard. Atm i see the king of the hill videos, even pvped friends ingame, It is a tanking game now, and if you want tanking go play fuckin wow. I want my nornal pvp back damnit, i may like my safezone, but even i feel deprived here of sum old time fun! And Dubanka's Point is highly valid their, fortitude is HP based, that stat i have yet to see raise and that stat should be tough to raise. I hope a balance comes soon, no offense ddt , you and few others got the godly status ingame and cant be defeated due to ya crappy combat system. Even you gotta agree, something needs done now about it.

[Mactavendish]

These are not really assumptions Deatu, they are observed realities.

Yes you could try and "buff" the new players but that's even more convoluted then what I suggested.

Having all skills and stats decay if not used and limiting skills and even stats to a maximum capped value, will allow for ALL players to know where they stand with their toons build.

The things that should give advantage, are stuff like quality of armor or weapons. Are you full and healthy, or empty and starving.

The theme park games all allow "uber" skillled/health/damage types.

This game is supposed to be about survival.

We should have unlimited water and food... limited resources to make gear with and should be able to build all the log cabins we want.

In such a world, which is what we all thought this was, sure a few insane players could max out a few things.. but if we are actually having to survive, then there would not be any uber players at all.. only slightly stronger, or smarter, or better equipped.

Now, explain to me how that would be bad for the game, or bad for the majority of players, or even bad for the current set of vets?

[HyBrasil]

("Leet" Sword guy)
I R UBER LEET, I PAY $200/MONTH FOR THIS GAME AND I OWNZERS ALL, LOL

("New Player" Indiana)
Huh? I just joined but I found this, POW.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMgRYH8TH0k&feature=related

I prefer things this way.

(In case the video goes bye-bye for whatever reason, It was the sword guy vs. Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark.)

[fatboy21007]

lmao nice video

[MrDDT]

folks, were all old farts around here, Reason animal as easy is pretty simple, are hps are too high, Lower are hps to that of a starting character and guess what?, those very same animals will be very challenging, pvp would be equal grounds ( besides the fact of sum that have high combat skills, then ofc they got the dmg advantage). I personally dont think you shouldn't get raised hps in this game. THis is survival after all, atm theirs a few ingame who dont have to worry about it. I miss the days of launch, Where is was equal fighting, when ya roaming around and some1 tried to attack ya, you actually stood a chance 1 vs 1. Hell even seen few take only 5 at a time and win all due to skill with the ole keyboard. Atm i see the king of the hill videos, even pvped friends ingame, It is a tanking game now, and if you want tanking go play fuckin wow. I want my nornal pvp back damnit, i may like my safezone, but even i feel deprived here of sum old time fun! And Dubanka's Point is highly valid their, fortitude is HP based, that stat i have yet to see raise and that stat should be tough to raise. I hope a balance comes soon, no offense ddt , you and few others got the godly status ingame and cant be defeated due to ya crappy combat system. Even you gotta agree, something needs done now about it.


Ive been agreeing to the fact that if you skill up every craft in the game, you will be super strong. (Like my toon)
I DONT agree with the fact that people who skill up should be on equal footing as a 1 day old person. If you like that type of system. I believe you would also want no skilling up in ANY type of skill mattering in this game at all.

If you think HP shouldnt level up with you, then why level up anything? Everyone should have equal HP, and equal skills. You cant say your way is ok, but then be like "oh no but dont touch crafting, not everyone should have equal to all my crafting skills".



These are not really assumptions Deatu, they are observed realities.

Yes you could try and "buff" the new players but that's even more convoluted then what I suggested.

Having all skills and stats decay if not used and limiting skills and even stats to a maximum capped value, will allow for ALL players to know where they stand with their toons build.

The things that should give advantage, are stuff like quality of armor or weapons. Are you full and healthy, or empty and starving.

The theme park games all allow "uber" skillled/health/damage types.

This game is supposed to be about survival.

We should have unlimited water and food... limited resources to make gear with and should be able to build all the log cabins we want.

In such a world, which is what we all thought this was, sure a few insane players could max out a few things.. but if we are actually having to survive, then there would not be any uber players at all.. only slightly stronger, or smarter, or better equipped.

Now, explain to me how that would be bad for the game, or bad for the majority of players, or even bad for the current set of vets?


Can you explain to me what this means, because I missed it.

You are saying that we should or shouldnt have skill leveling in this game?

[Mactavendish]

I am actually saying ...

Skills and stats like fort,str,intel, etc.. can and should level up. And even HP to a max setting that ANYONE can achieve.

I am also saying the that HP should not keep building nor should it be the defining aspect of a combat player.

You seem to believe I don't want folks to have to level anything and that is simply not the case.

I thought from the in game discussion the other day you understood what I was saying and you even agreed...

You also keep using the the phrase "even footing". By default a vet would be more accomplished than a new player, thus NOT on an even footing.

To repeat, the issue I have is that Unlimited HP allows a huge gap to develop between new and vet players. This is a bad thing in my eyes and it seems many others here agree. To allow HP to define what a combat player can accomplish, also ruins the game for most everyone else.

Why do you have a problem with the concept that even a casual player can, over time, become equal with a player that insanely plays 12-16 hours a day?

If that was to happen you personally would have alot more challenge to the game, others could also have the very same fun and prolly more people would play...

or is it you really want to keep the huge gap between players we see today?

[Hodo]

I still think HP should be in the Roma Victor fashion. No hit points, just your attributes as your damage bar.

Head= Perception + Intelligence

Chest= Fortitude

Arms = Dexterity + Strength

Legs = Agility

that leaves 2 attributes that are not tied to ANYTHING, Spirit, and Charm. Which should not go up or down with damage.

If any attribute is knocked to zero you are incapacitated. Just like if your HP reaches 0 now.

They will heal up over time, and you can do first aid on the damaged location to heal it faster. Just like Roma Victor, which had a VERY good healing system. Need a stick+rag+twine to heal a arm wound. You needed a sheet to bandage a chest wound. It worked, it was simple, yet deep.

[fatboy21007]

alright ddt, you want somthing to lvl up, Fortitude. No one should gain a huge advantage over another. Most folks can only play 1-2 hours a day, So they SHOULD be able to reach the same level as say a 10-20 hour player in a reasonable amount of time, Also you shouldnt gain hps from crafting AT ALL. Hp's if u all trully want it to be for those who work hard, Make them STAT based. Their even chance for all to reach it. and it should be caped. Making a friggin hammers or building house shouldnt gain me hps, Only stats should play this role, Combat shouldnt effect hps ethier, only blocking and dps you do. That in my eyes is a balance every1 can agree on, as with stat-skill decay, you can define your character through ur stats, thus ur hps are defined also. Their a noob startin out will be weaker for ya, But, You gotta bust your ass if ya wanna gain that edge, and fortitude needs to be based off a skill that can not be macroed, or button smashed, SO the idea of eating and drinking sounds good to fit this area, however if ya keep your thirst and hunger bar from emptying out overtime youll raise fortitude, (now this wont be a easy task as it will take months to gain +1 in fortitude this way) But its fair, and allows those who wish to be elite and are really indepth into the game to gain something from it all. However i will not ever accept crafting to lvl hps up, nor should combat effect it. has to be stat based, thats the only way it makes it fair on all sides and even gives those playing 20 hours a day the edge, but keeps them from reaching the godly status again, THus they are killable 1 vs 1

Also a side note, ya level up skills atm for trading, building, to make your tools to create better ones, Also armors and the quality need to play a huge factor in this picture. You simply dont grind skills out to reach max hps, Wth kinda goal is that, makes all the crafting useless if ya view it in that sence. Crafting shouldnt be thought of as gaining hps, i never seen it that way and i still dont, hell i never heard any1 say that till you did..lol

[MrDDT]

I am actually saying ...

Skills and stats like fort,str,intel, etc.. can and should level up. And even HP to a max setting that ANYONE can achieve.

I am also saying the that HP should not keep building nor should it be the defining aspect of a combat player.

You seem to believe I don't want folks to have to level anything and that is simply not the case.

I thought from the in game discussion the other day you understood what I was saying and you even agreed...

You also keep using the the phrase "even footing". By default a vet would be more accomplished than a new player, thus NOT on an even footing.

To repeat, the issue I have is that Unlimited HP allows a huge gap to develop between new and vet players. This is a bad thing in my eyes and it seems many others here agree. To allow HP to define what a combat player can accomplish, also ruins the game for most everyone else.

Why do you have a problem with the concept that even a casual player can, over time, become equal with a player that insanely plays 12-16 hours a day?

If that was to happen you personally would have alot more challenge to the game, others could also have the very same fun and prolly more people would play...

or is it you really want to keep the huge gap between players we see today?


You are now saying that stats are easier to get than skills? Because, I would beg to differ. Plus if you limit it to 1 stats like fatboy just said, you would have even worse problem on your hands.

Anyone right now can get the same hit points as me. I dont even have max. My alt has almost as much as me and 1/2 the skills or less. There is no "unlimited" hp. There is a limit right now how high HP can go. Your problem is that I have it all it seems like, and you didnt train your toon enough to get more. MY problem isnt that, its the fact the gap is to wide.
YOU believe that changing it to your way will fix the problem it wont.

Where do you think I disagree with that concept that casual players can over time become equal with a player that is playing hardcore 10+ hours a day? I've already said I believe the gap should be smaller from start to finish. There is an HP cap. Ive not even hit it yet.

I wouldnt have more challenge to the game, heck what is there to challenge at all? How high someone can build a wall? You have to be kidding. Surely isnt animals as they are still easy.

You should go back and read my posts, Ive said MANY MANY MANY times I want a smaller gap from a new player and a vet. What I dont want is to lose all the leveling the game has. With skill pools and soft caps, I see this game a lot like UO where people make their own builds based on how they want to play.
You want a tailoring hunter go for it. You want an axe weilding leather worker? Not problem. What I dont want to see is someone with every skill in the game like me, and the gap so large that they (like me) have a 10x HP gap over a new player.
Again, Ive said it before, I want a 2x to 4x HP gap from new to max.

"Right now I have almost 10x more HP than a new player, that's a large gap to over come, I see no reason why the gap shouldnt be like 2x to 4x"

I know you think its about DDT vs the world, but again if I wanted that I wouldnt change it as right now no one is at my level, and few are even close.

[Mactavendish]

You keep making stuff up to try and support you claims.

I am not staying stats are easier, never have. I experience the very same things you or any player does. Stats are HARD to level.

Nor am I saying that they should be easy.

The ONLY difference between you and other players is the insane gap in HP you have gotten due to your craft/combat/gathering skills.

This is something we won't agree on.

I personally am all for skill as a player being the sole reason one player can beat another. I don't want any advantages just given to the players.

I would prefer that all players decay back to a reasonable max level of hp or maybe even what HODO suggested, then have damage mitigation and comfort levels determine what damage a player can get.

Now instead of the sillyness we see in game today, success will depend on long term desire and skill.

You probably believe that is exactly what your current stat is based off of... but it's not. Yes you put in the hours, but the game gave you an overly inflated advantage you that is not based off anything but amount of time spent doing anything.

The reason this is bad is because it is a game.. and very few players can devote the time you can. Simply giving you massive HP because you sit at your computer literally all day long ( yes we have checked and kept track ) has over balanced this game towards the hardcore player.. and against the casual .. and most players are casual.

I really don't care if you agree here or not. I am more speaking to Jordi and the dev team and any new players wanting to join the game.

NOTICE: Until HP is set to decay like Jordi says it will... don't bother competing any any events. It is pointless.

[fatboy21007]

aye, the events look like so much fun, even the treasure hunts, but i wont take part in them because of the massive gaps between casual and marathon runner players. wish their was a balance in, but we wont see that anytime this century, So my treasure hunt is done scavenging :-)

[MrDDT]

You keep making stuff up to try and support you claims.

I am not staying stats are easier, never have. I experience the very same things you or any player does. Stats are HARD to level.

Nor am I saying that they should be easy.

The ONLY difference between you and other players is the insane gap in HP you have gotten due to your craft/combat/gathering skills.

This is something we won't agree on.

I personally am all for skill as a player being the sole reason one player can beat another. I don't want any advantages just given to the players.

I would prefer that all players decay back to a reasonable max level of hp or maybe even what HODO suggested, then have damage mitigation and comfort levels determine what damage a player can get.

Now instead of the sillyness we see in game today, success will depend on long term desire and skill.

You probably believe that is exactly what your current stat is based off of... but it's not. Yes you put in the hours, but the game gave you an overly inflated advantage you that is not based off anything but amount of time spent doing anything.

The reason this is bad is because it is a game.. and very few players can devote the time you can. Simply giving you massive HP because you sit at your computer literally all day long ( yes we have checked and kept track ) has over balanced this game towards the hardcore player.. and against the casual .. and most players are casual.

I really don't care if you agree here or not. I am more speaking to Jordi and the dev team and any new players wanting to join the game.

NOTICE: Until HP is set to decay like Jordi says it will... don't bother competing any any events. It is pointless.



Regarding character advancement.
- As it has been reported that char hps increases with levels, the char with the most skills trained, will be the highest level and will have the most hps, question: Once skill degradation is implemented, will it be possible to lose levels/hps as you lose skill levels?
You will not lose levels as that is simply a hidden stat to track overall skill gain through xp and has no other effect. There are no plans to have players lose hp, but these will be adjusted by stats and combat skills.

Did I miss the post where Xsyon said it would decay? Can you please link it?


I think there is more of a differnce from me and other players either way, but thats besides here or there.

How does your way make success depend on longterm desire and skill? Your way says new players can be successful right out of the gate all they have to get is hands on a good set of armor which isnt all that hard with this economy.

Your next comment about "inflated advantage" is going to be worse when you start making things based on stats. Because stats take LONGER to get than skills, so players like me who spend 1000s of hours in game will have more of an advantage. So new players who have low stats, will have low HP unless they spend equal amount of play time as someone else. Plus the vets will never want to stop or slow down stat gain. So if someone has a year playing advantage on you, they will keep it forever. As so far no cap to stats that Ive seen. More play time equals more stats.

Its impossible for you to check to see when Ive been at my computer or not. Plus it makes no difference what I can or cant do, you are clearly here making more personal attacks. Which makes no sense because I want to change it so its LESS in my favor. Any system will still favor players who play a lot, unless you remove all skills and stat gains and armor etc.

It makes me laugh that you make a post here to talk to Xsyon or the devs instead of using the normal tools and posting it as a suggestion. These are threads for topics of discussions.

Mind showing me where that post is that Xsyon posted about the decay? Thanks.

[Jadzia]

Did I miss the post where Xsyon said it would decay? Can you please link it?

Mind showing me where that post is that Xsyon posted about the decay? Thanks.


Here it is, last week Q/A:

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/2522-Official-Answers-by-week/page4#39


Mactavendish Asks:


1. Will HP decay along with skills/stats?
It is assumed it will work this way, but can you confirm?
Yes, as stated above.

[Mactavendish]

As Jadzia points out, Jordi has said that hp will also decay.

So, I think we will all just wait till things settle down and stop paying any attention to the more hardcore players currently in game and as things decay, we will see who complains and who move forward.

I don't hold anyone in contempt, just don't want to argue any longer when the plan is for what I would like to see.

[fatboy21007]

i just want peace and fun and balance damnit!, but i think i got a better chance of winning the lottery then gettin that to happen :-(

[MrDDT]

As Jadzia points out, Jordi has said that hp will also decay.

So, I think we will all just wait till things settle down and stop paying any attention to the more hardcore players currently in game and as things decay, we will see who complains and who move forward.

I don't hold anyone in contempt, just don't want to argue any longer when the plan is for what I would like to see.


I dont mind HP decay. But you want no HP to level up with any skill at all. Not sure if "HP decay" equals No HP with any skill.


Thanks, Jadiza I didnt read them for that day yet. I was going off older ones.

[Mactavendish]

You really need to learn to read better and not keep assuming you are right.

I said that HP should level up to a max cap of say 100.

In game you totally agreed with this idea.. so I see that you are merely arguing to argue, and I would say that your intent is to inflame...

I believe that it considered against the forum rules and I would like to see this thread locked.

[MrDDT]

You really need to learn to read better and not keep assuming you are right.

I said that HP should level up to a max cap of say 100.

In game you totally agreed with this idea.. so I see that you are merely arguing to argue, and I would say that your intent is to inflame...

I believe that it considered against the forum rules and I would like to see this thread locked.


I never said I agree with a HP cap of 100, I believe it should be 2x to 4x. 100 fits to the bottom end yes. However, I think it should be more based off combat instead of every skill in the game. There are many aspects to HP other than the final amount. You are missing the rest of the debate.

I also surely dont agree with your statements of everyone should have even HP.
I'm glad to see you change your mind there to at least 100HP.

I'm not breaking any rule here, you are trying to say I am which I'm not.

I would also like to see HP have other effects from things like stats. Fort doesnt have much effect on HP, it should be a lot more effective for your HP than SPI is. Right now SPI has the biggest effect on HP.

[fatboy21007]

well only 1 stat should effect hps, fortitude, if ya truly want a combat skill to effect it, then i think Armed combat would be ideal, but only 1 combat skills should effect hps, not all ofem . Doesnt make sence to use more then 1 skill n stat for hps.

[Mactavendish]

Then basically we are at an Impasse.

In game you agreed on being "ok" with a max cap, but now you don't. That's fine as anyone can change their minds.

It really doesn't matter if we agree here.

I am sure that neither of us will get exactly what we want, but if if closes the gap and brings balance, whatever it is they actually do, Then I will be fine with it.

All I do know is that the latest thing Jordi has said is that HP will decay with the rest. Even that has the potential to solve the issue in my mind.

[MrDDT]

Then basically we are at an Impasse.

In game you agreed on being "ok" with a max cap, but now you don't. That's fine as anyone can change their minds.

It really doesn't matter if we agree here.

I am sure that neither of us will get exactly what we want, but if if closes the gap and brings balance, whatever it is they actually do, Then I will be fine with it.

All I do know is that the latest thing Jordi has said is that HP will decay with the rest. Even that has the potential to solve the issue in my mind.


Currently there IS a max cap on HP. So I dont know what you are talking about.

Second, IF its changed to stats effecting total HP, then there will be no cap. Understand?

I agree the key is closing the gap. However, I do want to see people rewarded for playing. Not counterstrike style you start with everything in the game and work for nothing to make it "even" or "all player skill".

Fatboy why only 1 skill effect HP? Whats the reasoning behind that? Reason why I dont like 1 skill effecting it, is what about someone going unarmed? Or maybe caster types later? Or ranged? You see the point?
It limits people to be forced to have armed combat up.

Once skill pools are in place, not everyone will be able to bring up every skill in the game (not even all the combat ones).

[fatboy21007]

then i think the hunting skill should effect hps. Look ddt in every damn mmo made to date(98% ofem) they all use 1 stat to raise hps, and as ya leveled up you got an option to stick points into that stat. Their was no skill effecting hpings in any other game cept select few. if were gonna fix hps, then it needs done rite, their shouldnt still be a gap their when its done, and if their is it will be a small one. No matter wat player should be able to beat a play 1 vs 1 unless that player just sucks in pvp. I want a balance here, i DO NOT want to see this where ya grind up a skill poof high hps. You didnt earn them. so ill choose hunting that would be the logical skill to use as ya use it to hunt animals, they should me the skill the same effect when ya hunt players. and fortitude should still effect hps, its int he guides n everything else, yet i dont think it even is effecting hps

[Dubanka]

the bigger issue with hps tying to skill gains, is will the gmae recognize 'shadow maxed' skills once/whenever skill decay is put in at a reasonably high level.

ie. i max running. then i let running decay. then i max running again. will the game reduce my hps as the skill decays? if it doesnt, will it recognize the shadowmax or will it add more hps as a player reskills it?

that is the main problem with tying hps to things other than stat(s) or gear...too many variables. fort adds hps at a factor of 2. str at 1.5, agility at 1.2, etc etc. per chance adding stats to the more cerebral elements affects hps negatively...so you can't be really smart and have huge hps. seems like it would be simpler and more intuitive than the current method.

[xmechna]

shadow maxed ? gona have to clue me in on that term

[Book]

Trouble is if you put skill decay at a high level, the game becomes a major chore for the more casual players who will wind up constantly trying to regain what they've lost every time they log in. Not really such a fun prospect. Hopefully that will be accounted for in the initial implementation.

And yes, I believe the plan is: while hps don't themselves decay directly, they decay indirectly through their connection to skills, which will decay... as per Jadzia's post of Jordi's remarks.

[MrDDT]

then i think the hunting skill should effect hps. Look ddt in every damn mmo made to date(98% ofem) they all use 1 stat to raise hps, and as ya leveled up you got an option to stick points into that stat. Their was no skill effecting hpings in any other game cept select few. if were gonna fix hps, then it needs done rite, their shouldnt still be a gap their when its done, and if their is it will be a small one. No matter wat player should be able to beat a play 1 vs 1 unless that player just sucks in pvp. I want a balance here, i DO NOT want to see this where ya grind up a skill poof high hps. You didnt earn them. so ill choose hunting that would be the logical skill to use as ya use it to hunt animals, they should me the skill the same effect when ya hunt players. and fortitude should still effect hps, its int he guides n everything else, yet i dont think it even is effecting hps



Do you understand that tying HP to 1 stat is going to make it worse than it is now? Stats take 100x longer to level up than skills. Skill cap out.
Stats do not have a cap (at least none Ive seen).

So you will have people that play hours and hours like myself. Way more HP than others, who never will catch up. New players will be even more screwed because they can never catch up.

Fort does effect HP. Its 1/10xfort = Bonus to HP. IE 1 to 9 points of HP.
Each level gives around 1.5 HP. So 6 levels = 90 fort.

I dont see why hunting should be the only other skill heck its a gathering skill. Might as well just make logging effect HP also. Hunting isnt even using the fort stat.

@ Dub,
Yes I see this as a major problem also. So once skill decay is put in, both the gap of HP and the decay + exp training for HP will be both worse for the gap and boring as heck.
I would rather see a stat pool, where its a soft cap. So people have to choose. With that you would need to balance stats a lot better.

@Book,
Skill decay has been planned from the start, as was stat decay. If they dont make it so it decays offline I see no reason why casuals would need to work harder. They would just need to focus. I see no problems in this. Same time is spent as anyone else also current way is worse for casuals as they will have to get all the skills up. (At least combat casuals).

[fatboy21007]

thats the point with the stat, it does take a very long time to raise it, thus when ya make your character, ya choose wisely if u plan to pvp, craft or do both. Thus makes character builds more useful :-P Also hunting should work as u can track animals, and should allow ya to track players, then tying hps to it would work. And with skill decay, that gap is still gonna be their, with ur maxed out skills and others like ya, no way any1 will be able to catch up to ya, i mean if ya keep steady with skills ya might finally after a year come down to a level where it might take 5 to down ya ^^, ahh well we all can keep chatin bout this, but nothing will happen rite now, all we can do is wait and see what the devs do with it.

[Mactavendish]

I don't mean to argue with you Book, but Jordi said that HP will decay along with skills, not stats.

What this tells me is that he is sticking with his original plan and having skill pools, and that HP will decay with skill decay.

The idea always was to limit how many skills a player could keep at max. So let's say we are talking about the combat group. 1 or 2 skills you could keep high, but the others would be hard to keep over 50 or so. You can be really good in axes and unarmed but not that good in the others.


to ddt:

I am fine with it working like this. And where it will give an advantage to the vets, it is not an advantage that cannot be matched by any other player.

This will not hurt the more casuals, as they will just focus on 1 or maybe 2 skills and keep them maxed. Now skill of the player will have more meaning.

It is true for any game. Very few players find it fun to be unevenly matched. I am not talking about a slight uneven match up that could be challenging... I am talking Just started playing chess against an accomplished tournament winner.

It is not in the best interest of the game to keep things this way, and Jordi knows this. He wants players to join in here and have fun, not be frustrated at every turn.And remember, he wants all different types of players here, not just players like you. ( sorry to bust your bubble.)

Atm if you are not in love with building and crafting this game will get boring very quickly. This is not me saying anything that's not known or being negative. Many of my tribe mates have joined the game, all enthused, and then quietly disappeared to go play something more exciting. The current player base is generally older and more willing to put up with slow growth.

IF, they advertise without making some fundamental changes to bring excitement and balance, you know full well what will happen. A flood of new players will join, litter tha world with totems all over, become disappointed and then leave and the world will be worse off than now.

Thus, Jordi will make changes that he feels will best help the game.. not help you or I specifically.

[xmechna]

from what i gather skills are supposed to decay to the point of a player having 2 crafting skills 2 fighting skills 2 gathering skills or some variant of that and the hp bar will be balanced around that. players who have all skills leveled to 100 will have to chose later on what skills they will keep and the other skills will decay probably rather quickly leveling skill points will last only so long and soon the days of players having god mode aka a inflated life bar due to the current state of game will go away. =)

we wont have 1 person winning everything due to balance issues personally i have not attended events but iv seen 1 person announced the winner of the events enuff to know there is a problem


hey oak!!! get in vent we gota talk for a min

[MrDDT]

I can see its pointless to debate this anymore with Mac or Fatboy, as they are not even sticking to what they want.

Tying HP to a stat will make the gap worse not better. But whatever. I doubt anything said here will matter much anyways as it will likely not be anything like anything said here.

Good luck with whatever, as I dont think you will be happy with stats effecting HP. Because you will see people like me never ending gaining stats. Whereas skill grind stops after so long (like at the point I'm at now, the gap is closing because I cant get any more levels).

Final thought on the topic.

My idea is to make the gap smaller using skills as the factor. But link HP to many skills stack ranked instead of 1, or every skill in the game. IE tailoring should yield no HP, while logging should yield more than over the normal of say like forestry.

Doing this, people can choose their roles and which skills they want. Stats needs a LOT of work many are about worthless. While stats like DEX have tons of reasons to have it maxed, and its easy to go up.

[Mactavendish]

You do realize that I am NOT saying that hp should be tied to stats... right?

Fatboy is saying that and I don't agree with him. The last thing Jordi said was that HP decay will be tied to skill decay.

I have not changed from what I originally posted. Maybe you should separate what FB says and what I say.. they are not the same.

Whatever the current ( secret ) max for HP is, it is based off any skill you level. To me and at least a few others here they agree this is a bad method.

We all agree that the gap between vets and new players should be closed, some even saying that as far as HP it should be the same for vets and new players.

So... since HP decay will be added with skill decay, after awhile we will see the gap start to close, and next, when they advertise and totems decay then this game will start to move a bit more. Hardcore players will have folks to play with and others will be able to compete a bit better and perhaps stay in game longer.

Bottom line is, folks can rant and reason all they want but in the end it is what the Development teams DOES that means something.

[fatboy21007]

actually, i was tossing other ideas out their,Personally i dont give a shit as with current history of the game, something always stays unbalanced for long periods of time then gets balanced just to have another item unbalance. Hell i was done debateing ages ago, Considering we dont even know of his actuall plan bout this, Ahh wait i do, as he told me, Here Oak, ddt and rest of ya, He intended for PLayers to be able to reach a *epic player * level, which was suppose to be 3x-5x the normal hps. and last i chated with him, he was pretty content on this, However it will work, donno, But it seems those who player longer still get to be gods. So again i really dont care bout this entire thread, Nothing said here matters, chances of it actually happening, any of it are about 1% and that would be mb 1-2 things said here, mb. Just my opinion, ima leave this thread be.

[Mactavendish]

Not wanting to upset you there Fatboy.

I am only going off what he has said most recently in the answers to question section.

None of us have such inside info and if indeed that is true, I would love to hear it from Jordi and not second hand.

This thread does show one thing...

There ARE still folks passionate about this game.

[fatboy21007]

alright, Askem, then i guess ull beleave me ^^

[Hodo]

actually, i was tossing other ideas out their,Personally i dont give a shit as with current history of the game, something always stays unbalanced for long periods of time then gets balanced just to have another item unbalance. Hell i was done debateing ages ago, Considering we dont even know of his actuall plan bout this, Ahh wait i do, as he told me, Here Oak, ddt and rest of ya, He intended for PLayers to be able to reach a *epic player * level, which was suppose to be 3x-5x the normal hps. and last i chated with him, he was pretty content on this, However it will work, donno, But it seems those who player longer still get to be gods. So again i really dont care bout this entire thread, Nothing said here matters, chances of it actually happening, any of it are about 1% and that would be mb 1-2 things said here, mb. Just my opinion, ima leave this thread be.

HOLY PUNCTUATION NIGHTMARE BATMAN!

And its "there" not "their".

And I stand by my original post in this thread. Make your attributes your hitpoints. Hitpoint bubbles are so last decade.