Leaving because you finally have to pay

[China]

I've debated with myself whether to post on this subject, but since more posts on this topic keep popping up, and after reading 2 new ones this morning I decided it was time to speak out from the other side of the issue.

I will speak only for myself, but I know there are others exactly like me and think and feel like I do. I bought the game pre-launch and have paid for a monthly sub fee since the very start. That was the bargain I made with Notorious Games - I'll buy your game & pay you a monthly fee as long as I want to play YOUR GAME. That seemed fair to me. I've always paid my own way. I do not expect someone to provide me entertainment or a service that I don't pay for. Simply put TANSTAAFL.

I have no problem with people who have decided that the game is either not for them, or the "Prelude" period of the game is not meeting their expectations and decide to cancel their subscription and not play the game. But, and this is a very big but, I have a problem with people who bought the game and cancelled their monthly subscription and continued to play for free. Then they have the hubris to proceed to post "goodbye" threads complaining or trying to justify why they don't want to keep their side of the bargain...

The arrogance is mind blowing!!!

I'm going to draw you a picture or a comparison to show you what I mean.

There was a brand new theatre that opened. It was an exciting new revolutionary type of theatre that was going to be producing a unique kind of entertainment. The theatre owners were a small group, so in order to keep their enterprise going they decided to open the theatre before it was quite finished and charge a one time investment fee and a monthly fee to the people who wanted a unique kind of entertainment. The people who invested & paid the monthly fee could come & go anytime they wanted for their particular brand of entertainment - it was open 24/7.

Some people who invested in the theatre decided that the entertainment wasn't what they liked so they cancelled....You with me? Good.

Well what happened next is pretty slimy, but it did happen. The people who cancelled their monthly sub fee wandered down the alley behind the theatre one day and discovered the back door had been left unlocked. So they peaked in, and low and behold the theatre had several people there who had entered through the front door and were enjoying the entertainment. They thought to themselves....Hey!! I'll just sneak in and I won't have to pay. People, that is what you did, it's as simple as that.

My question to those of you who snuck in the back door is this. If you aren't willing to pay the "ticket price" now, why did you sneak in the back door and steal the entertainment? You must have seen some value or you wouldn't have wasted so much of your personal time on not being entertained.

China

[zookeeper]

I have to agree. I wish the date would of been January first but oh well. I have bought premium play time and was playing on a account that had free play time like so many others. If they had done this a year prior I could see all the rage and goodbyes but taking in to account the content thats been added and is in the works along with bug/crash fixes, I'm quite pleased.

+1

[Mactavendish]

I too fully believe in paying my own way. I have 2 accounts, so obviously felt that the value I was getting was well worth the money.

But let me give you something further to think about.

The rest of the game world has set the stage for peoples expectations. Most of them have open beta tests when they feel the game is ready to be seen, and then a free trial to see if the game is your cup of tea afterwards.

This game however is not your average game nor is this company average. As a small independent game company I truly believe what they have accomplished is quite amazing. And many of us will agree with that comment. However, most of us are also not average players.

Most of those "average" players are upset because they perceive this game as any other. It should be free if still in beta ( which is how many view prelude ) and at least should have a free trial. It really does not matter that it was openly published the nature of prelude or that things are MEANT to change and improve. They have already been trained by all the other games they have played.

Atm, Jordi and his team are in a very tough spot. They really need to implement the changes he last mentioned to improve the over all playability and retention factors to give the game a chance of success.

The majority of current players have been here almost a year after release, and only now see them closing in on what they needed to do at release. This has caused much of the reactions you are seeing now.

Paying for the game now after not being charged is not actually like sneeking in to the theater. In reality it is more like the management of the theater was simply letting some folks in and not charging others. They all came in through the front door.

I personally agree with you china, that I would rather pay to get the benefit of playing here. But can you really blame someone for taking advantage of free time IF its what the owners gave them? isn't that exactly what a free trial is all about? And if they messed up on the billing system and chose to not bill everyone until it was fixed, that certainly not the players fault.

I also agree that if the reason a player not complains is because they have to play, after knowing what the scoop is, well, then I don't have a lot of compassion for them. Shoot, I even complained because I was NOT paying for one of my accounts.

[China]

The rest of the game world has set the stage for peoples expectations. Most of them have open beta tests when they feel the game is ready to be seen, and then a free trial to see if the game is your cup of tea afterwards.

February 2011 was a free trial Mac. I played the game that month along with a few others in my tribe. So your point is invalid.


This game however is not your average game nor is this company average. As a small independent game company I truly believe what they have accomplished is quite amazing. And many of us will agree with that comment. However, most of us are also not average players.

Sorry...another invalid point. I've played a bunch...I mean a bunch of games, and this is not an insult to anyone, but the players in Xsyon are pretty average in my book. But more importantly, so what? Being average or above or below average doesn't make a bit of difference in the price of beans.


Most of those "average" players are upset because they perceive this game as any other. It should be free if still in beta ( which is how many view prelude ) and at least should have a free trial. It really does not matter that it was openly published the nature of prelude or that things are MEANT to change and improve. They have already been trained by all the other games they have played.

Then they should have been here in February. I was. I've missed a bunch of betas and still played a game when the companies put a price tag on it.

Let's stick to reality here and not make up things or try and re-write history, Mac.


The majority of current players have been here almost a year after release, and only now see them closing in on what they needed to do at release. This has caused much of the reactions you are seeing now.

I'm not buying it. They want something for free. I'm out there in the public every day and see this type of behavior all the time. The moment they have to pay for something they moan & groan - bicker about the price, tell you your product isn't worth it. Yeah right. :rolleyes: If it wasn't worth it why the hell were they using it??? Answer me that. You can't because I'm right.


Paying for the game now after not being charged is not actually like sneeking in to the theater. In reality it is more like the management of the theater was simply letting some folks in and not charging others. They all came in through the front door.

Again I disagree. I didn't know about ALL the free accounts until a month ago, and you know Mac I get around. So it was some sort of hush hush secret. If it was on the up and up why weren't people blabbing it - why wasn't NG blabbing it? I'll tell you why, because it was SNEAKING. And in my book, plain & simple - it was stealing too.



I personally agree with you china, that I would rather pay to get the benefit of playing here. But can you really blame someone for taking advantage of free time IF its what the owners gave them? isn't that exactly what a free trial is all about? And if they messed up on the billing system and chose to not bill everyone until it was fixed, that certainly not the players fault.

You're damn right I blame them. Because if it was so friggin free why did I and a bunch of others pay for it every month.

You know, Mac I'm pretty plain spoken. I call it like I see it - there may be some who don't like what I have to say, but you won't find anyone that will ever say that I'm not a stand-up person.

China

[MrDDT]

This is how I see it.

People buy the game play it, and were going to quit. But there was free time, so they sorta played or played however long etc.
Now the game still isnt where they feel they would want to play it for a cost. So they are quitting. I see this as a normal thing not something "Mind blowing" its common sense to me.

Some people were playing for free that would gladly pay for it, others wouldnt pay for it as they feel its not something worth the cost or expense.
People have been saying this for a long time, the game isnt ready to retain paying players, very few people play this game let alone pay for it.

I know Im beating the dead horse here, but again. This is what you guys wanted. The carebears brought this, PVPers have been saying this since day 1. It needs strife, it needs the features that were listed at the start of the game when 1000s of people bought the game.

Running around, building things for looks, little to no resource control, broken looting system, death porting, no good/evil system etc. All these things are missing which were meant to be in the game.

There are no resources to control, the combat is still not balanced. The game was meant to be little grind yet its very grindy.

You are getting upset at the players, and again its not the players you should be upset with. I believe Xsyon is lucky to have players willing to play and help progress the game. Many players put in a lot of time reporting bugs, and trying to help players learn the game.

Maybe with totem decay, and a few of the other things people will want to come play more. But even myself I'm finding it hard to play anymore. Too few people wanting to play the game how it should be, so they are asking for easy mode.

[Tesla]

I have been paying and playing on my accounts since launch. I heard a few months ago that there were some who were not being charged and were still able to login. Somewhere on this forum, Xsyon announced that free time would be given to those who were being charged, to balance things out. Sorry, I dont have the inclination to go and find the link. So, since I have paid my dues, I am now looking for my free time since the account system has been cleared up. If I am wrong about my assumption, then i will indeed be upset.

[China]

Off topic DDt.

[Mactavendish]

I seem to have touched a nerve there girl... was not my intention.

It is certainly NOT fair that some paid and some did not. Yes people will try and get everything for free if they can and NO it not right, acceptable or moral.

but... Let me ask it this way...

If you only learned of this situation a month ago, how many others didn't even have a clue?

Is it possible those same players maybe assumed that the "free" time mentioned on the forums, might be the reason they were not charged?

Is it even possible that some were shocked because they don't follow the forums and may not even know what you are even talking about?

Sure, I bet that some were doing exactly what you say, giggling there butts off at not having to pay, that is a primary reason many play open betas... cuz it be free. But I can also say that some probably were unaware.

Maybe you are right... everyone is totally in it for themselves.

I think I'm done.

[China]

I seem to have touched a nerve there girl... was not my intention.

It is certainly NOT fair that some paid and some did not. Yes people will try and get everything for free if they can and NO it not right, acceptable or moral.

but... Let me ask it this way...

If you only learned of this situation a month ago, how many others didn't even have a clue?

Is it possible those same players maybe assumed that the "free" time mentioned on the forums, might be the reason they were not charged?

Is it even possible that some were shocked because they don't follow the forums and may not even know what you are even talking about?

Sure, I bet that some were doing exactly what you say, giggling there butts off at not having to pay, that is a primary reason many play open betas... cuz it be free. But I can also say that some probably were unaware.

Maybe you are right... everyone is totally in it for themselves.

I think I'm done.

I believe what you say about all the possibities in your post, could of and probably did happen, Mac. I'm not mad that I paid and others didn't - it's all about being able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning for me. What I started the thread for and tried to say, maybe not as good as I could have, was there were some hypocrits out their posting their "goodbye posts" and stating that they were leaving because they were going to be charged for something that they only found value in for free.

I'm going to say this one more time or ask it. If you got no entertainment value, why the heck were you wasting your time here? I know that those posting those things are about as altruistic as Donald Trump. In other words self-serving (deleted word).

Peace,

China

[MrDDT]

I believe what you say about all the possibities in your post, could of and probably did happen, Mac. I'm not mad that I paid and others didn't - it's all about being able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning for me. What I started the thread for and tried to say, maybe not as good as I could have, was there were some hypocrits out their posting their "goodbye posts" and stating that they were leaving because they were going to be charged for something that they only found value in for free.

I'm going to say this one more time or ask it. If you got no entertainment value, why the heck were you wasting your time here? I know that those posting those things are about as altruistic as Donald Trump. In other words self-serving (deleted word).

Peace,

China



I dont think its self serving at all. Most people dont like to just randomly throw their money away.

Using your first post and the movies analogy.

People bought tickets to the movie 3D Avatar. They get into their seats and not only is it not avatar, but its in black and white with no sound. So many people just got up and left, some asked for a refund. Others just figured "Hey we are here, might as well watch it, we already paid 40$"

Now they watch the black and white movie thats not avatar without sound and the projector guy yells out a few times they got this or that working and found the right movie. So now they are watching Avatar in black in white with some of the sounds working. But they want you to pay some more for the new stuff they added.

Some people said well, I dont think I want to watch Avatar in black in white so we just going to leave, now that we have to pay more.
A couple of people, figure "Hey what the heck, we saw another movie and this is the one we wanted, sure its not perfect but worth the effort".


That's how I see how people are viewing what's going on. 1000s of people already left the game because of the features list no correctly showing what was in game. Now they have some of the features better, and a few people are still playing it.

I see nothing wrong with people waiting to pay to play until the features they were told would be in the game and working are in the game and working. I look at most of this time like a paid beta.

[MrDDT]

Perhaps I didn't make this clear in my previous post to you. You are off topic and I'm not going to pretend that you & your endless twisting, changing the subject is relevent here. Your analogy is bullshit and has nothing to do with the point that I'm trying to make. I'm very aware of your tactics and so are most. Take it to another thread and derail it, but I'm not going to play your attention egotistical "let's make this about DDT and what he wants to talk about" game here.

Unlike you I'm able to stay on topic and don't spam the forum with rambling, inane back & forth - tit-for-tat endless beyond boring posts.

So blow it buddy.

China


It's perfectly on topic, in fact your post here is the one off topic.

I was just chatting with others and they were saying the same thing I just said. The game just isnt ready for them to pay monthly. They are getting it there, but right now its not. I wish it were, I believe in this game.

[AndyI]

I actually find myself agreeing with DDT (the one point about it being common sense to reevaluate). China you're missing the point and it's a fairly fundamental one. When we all signed up for Prelude, nobody knew all this time the game would be free, we signed up knowing the cost. And tbf many would have quit long ago but for this fact. Most played along in the knowledge that it was not costing them to see how the game progressed. It has now reached the point where they are being charged yet the game is still not where it needs to be for most and they have effectively been forced to make a decision (whether people think it's a good thing or a bad thing is irrellevant).

However when people are forced to make a decision, it boils down to one simple question, is this worth the cost, many are saying no. I've not resubscribed my main yet either. I had cancelled my Alt account a while back and it was only my main account still going but I had not logged on in a while so doesn't really affect me. As DDT says this is just common sense, you will evaluate when you are forced to and it is this period that will now decide the future of the game.

Only time will tell if this is what kills the game or if the advertising brings in new customers but bottom line is this, it will prove once and for all how loyal the customer base is. So far the jury is still out.

Had they just started charging me, I would not have batted an eyelid, however going to log on to check on the new patch and finding my account inactive led me to the same point as those that have left, now that I have to do something to reenable my account, do I really want to? tbh I was expecting to be charged months ago. The mistake in my opinion is to not auto resub us all. We all signed up for the subscription so they would have been right to do so. But alas, I now have to decide whether to resub and I think I'll wait for a few more patches. Too many undelivered promises for me but like I said, I only reevaluated because I was forced to do so.

[zookeeper]

So it was fine to play for free but as soon as you must pay you are content on walking away?

Sounds like a bunch of ingreat freeloaders got removed. They contributed nothing but were fine playing the blood sucking leech role.

This was really needed imo so those working on the game get paid and it proceeds forward. Its not like no one knew the free ride would come to a end, but what beats all is you see progress and things moving forward yet you're not willing to pay for it. If the game was just $5 a month I still think you would want it to be free.

[tomyzr]

China, I think you are frustrated on the ppl around in in your real life and came here to vent.

Let me tell you my side of the story.

First off, I bought 2 accounts, thats 80 USD given to the developers. I do not regret this. I consider this as an advance payment to the developer to finish the product. Lets call it preorder.

We all agree on the fact this game is not having all the features that were promised to us when we bought the game. That means this game is still in heavy development. If the developer has an unfinished product, but he wants/needs ppl to test it, he makes a closed or public beta.

What I have problem with is to pay a monthly sub for a game that is clearly in beta still. Where else did you see a paid beta ?

When I found out I can still log in to the game even after canceling my sub, I took this opportunity to test the game and test the features put in. I also discovered I was not doing anything illegal, because devs were aware of this 'bug'. Let me ask you this ? If this was stealing, why did the devs waited so long to fix this ? I will answer you: because they were happy more ppl are playing the game and testing the features. We, the players got free time, but at the same time we helped the gaming community stay alive and also helped the developers in testing. It was a win-win situation.

I do feel sorry for the folks that had to pay for a sub all the way. I think they are the ones being cheated by NG.

As for myself, I already gave 80 USD to NG. I never played this game for free! I just do not feel paying even more for this game in this current state.

[MrDDT]

So it was fine to play for free but as soon as you must pay you are content on walking away?

Sounds like a bunch of ingreat freeloaders got removed. They contributed nothing but were fine playing the blood sucking leech role.

This was really needed imo so those working on the game get paid and it proceeds forward. Its not like no one knew the free ride would come to a end, but what beats all is you see progress and things moving forward yet you're not willing to pay for it. If the game was just $5 a month I still think you would want it to be free.


Do you think that everyone that didnt like the release just should have got a refund? Because, the choice you are saying is either people that were happy with the game at release should pay for it, and the ones that were not should have asked for a refund and never played it.

I think the other option is better, which is where we are at now. You had people playing for 40$ plus whatever months they paid. They gave money to the devs in hope it would get better. Seeing as there were small updates they were expecting the game to progress and waiting for promises of features to be put into the game. Still waiting, they are not willing to pay for the game now. They are not going back (or shouldnt) and asking for a refund.

Anyone that is upset in the 40$ (plus monthly) they were paying is another story. They played this whole time and shouldn't be upset now about it.

Choice was refund or piddle around in the game in the hopes of it being worth the monthly payments. To me its worth it still, I wont have 5 accounts active but I will have a couple.

I think the devs are working very hard and have been. However, I also believe the game is being driven the wrong way. Focus isnt being done on the things that mainly need it. Seeing things like candy cane totems for xmas with 1000s of bugs reported and still not fixed, makes me a sad panda. But I know they are working hard. I think instead of pleasing the few people playing the last 6 or so months, they should have been working on making the game better. Most of these people were playing for mostly free, just the 40$ and a few months paid.
To me it was a time to crash the server, do major changes and revamp stuff. Instead of catering to the outcries people were making over this or that.

Major issues of "Whats the point", and "Balance" are missing greatly. Economy with limited resources, tools for trading. Fact that you can deathport still. Looting broken. No good vs evil system etc. The list goes on and on. Instead we have 100 new walls, and 3 types of tools 150 tools, 50 different armor sets that mean nothing etc.

Anyways, I dont want to derail the thread by listed anymore of the things that should be in the game, but faulting people for not wanting to pay for STILL the game lacking the features it was released as having, doesnt surprise me a bit.

Seeing people like China and Zookeeper blaming the players goes to show you the bias.

[AndyI]

So it was fine to play for free but as soon as you must pay you are content on walking away?

Sounds like a bunch of ingreat freeloaders got removed. They contributed nothing but were fine playing the blood sucking leech role.

This was really needed imo so those working on the game get paid and it proceeds forward. Its not like no one knew the free ride would come to a end, but what beats all is you see progress and things moving forward yet you're not willing to pay for it. If the game was just $5 a month I still think you would want it to be free.

And still people miss the point. The money is irrelevant. I earn a decent amount, more than most, as a programmer. Which bit of 'had they just started charging me I would not have batted an eyelid' did you not understand? The fact that I now have to make a decision to resubscribe or not made me question whether I think it's worth it at this point in time or to wait for a few more patches and common sense led me to wait. What there is so difficult to understand?

In fact it's quite simple, they chose to continue it free, not me, not you. I have logged in mostly for a few hours a week to see how it's progressing so it can hardly be called enjoying a free ride. Again, not my choice making it free. There was a certain amount of payback as well, as we subscribed before release and they were simply paying us back for that loyalty as it has simply been a beta program after all whatever some people want to think with more low points than high ones. At one point I was encouraged enough to get a second account, and to sub for a while so I was paying them monthly (I can only play one account at a time after all).

Try actually reading what was said before jumping down someones throat.

Added after 5 minutes:


They are not going back (or shouldnt) and asking for a refund.

Major issues of "Whats the point", and "Balance" are missing greatly. Economy with limited resources, tools for trading. Fact that you can deathport still. Looting broken. No good vs evil system etc. The list goes on and on. Instead we have 100 new walls, and 3 types of tools 150 tools, 50 different armor sets that mean nothing etc.


And yet again I find myself aggreeing with DDT. Whats the world coming to :)

Exactly, I'm not asking for a refund nor would I. I'm just saying I'll hold off on resubscribing for a few more patches. I just wont be logging in and testing anymore because lets face it, that's all we were doing.

The 'reason' should have been the most important thing as it gets things moving in the right direction.

If we had an economy, there would be a reason to PVP and a reason to craft.

So can you have an economy with no NPC's? and no quests that act as content sinks? EVE managed but it took time and even there, there were content sinks with NPC's (but not enough to say it had an effect) and crafting required a huge amount of resources and it was so easy to lose what you had worked for. What EVE had going for it was the rarity of some of the minerals and the risk of the non safe zones where you had to go to get them. We still don't have the extra zones and we still don't have the ultra rare crafting items or stats gains that make it worth fighting for and until you do people wont fight over them. Add to the mix that there was a difference between common and rare items including at the blueprint level. Anyone could make a T1 item but not everyone had T2 and it was so expensive to buy them and so you have to mine to raise eough to do so. all these things contributed to an economy. We do not have the market sink and something needs to be done to replicate that in a world that has no monetary instrument in order for an economy to work. Here you grind and grinding did not require rare resources as you could pick a simple item with a limitless supply of resources. That cannot work.

It was a long time before EVE had POS and so that was not really a factor. We don't need contested totems or even NPC's, we just need crafting to have more depth, more sinks and the risks to be greater in the new zones with much tougher animals and many more of them esp. packs and for all contents to be dropped on death (and vanish if not retrieved soon enough) so you have to go and retrieve them like in EVE. Safe zones are not and have never been the issue contrary to the arguments otherwise. EVE has safe zones, they are called stations. No real difference. And like EVE all crafting is done within them. Transporting goods is where things get interesting esp if very large or heavy. Things have to be worth fighting over is the bottom line and things have to have some degree of rarity in order to encourage fighting over them. Sadly many do not understand the difference between abundance of common resources and rarity of non common resources. Making common resources rare doesn't move things forward.

I think they thought quests on totems would act like a form of barter marketplace but many items are simply too heavy to transport so it doesn't work without carts and because all of the map is unsafe unlike EVE you don't get the core market working for crafters. It's a catch 22. You almost need a safe area of the map around the lake where people freely travel and trade and then a free for all in the outer areas where there are rare resources. The whole model can't work as it is and has been said so many times already.

[zookeeper]

This wasn't a issue until you had to pay so yes it is a money issue. Some have said that they won't pay for the game I personally don't mind as those people are and have said they wanted that free ride. Your continued posting trying to justify this or that doesn't make sense to me. If you have concerns about having to pay now or the direction of development I would think those concerns would be best sent via support.

It's your money and I'm not going to tell you how to spend it but I fully understand the anger of those that did pump the money in and those that had a free ride are complaining. I was one of those with a free ride and I made the decision to pay for the game and making a post to try and get the free play I did enjoy and used fully is pointless as it should of never happened in the firs place but since it did I personally think the game is reaching a good place.

They already did a press release a week ago DDT, do some web searches and you'll find them. I've been noticing a lot of new names and that's great as I see things picking up and I'll support development. Your decision to not support the game but IMO you don't need to try and convince, rage, vent or pull everyone else down, some of us enjoy the game and what is coming. Quit gracfully or do as you say and wait and see but dogging what you got for free and now are upset because you have to pay is just beyond anything I have ever seen.

[AndyI]

Your grasp of English seems to be failing you. So here goes, I'll try making it even simpler to understand.

1.) Whilst the game was free I wasn't actively playing, it was just a beta test with most logging in after a patch to see progress. And yes I was posting bug reports.
2.) If they had turned on the payment processing I would have been paying it.
3.) Because I have to resub, I chose therefore not to until a few more patches are out because progress has been very slow. I questioned as to whether it was worth it.
4.) As such the need to resub has caused people to question if they should, not the money per say so in my case no it is not about the money.
5.) I did not say I've quit either, I said I'll wait for a few more patches.

You don't seem to understand the difference between logging in and checking the state of a patch vs playing. Not once did I say I was upset paying. Nor did I actually complain, I simply stated that it forced me to be reaslistic and reevaluate my subscription. And whilst you can magic any number of arguments out of thin air, I have stuck to my simple reasons for making the choice I did. It is after all a question of content and features and not money. For me, it's never about the money. I spent more in the pub last night than 3 months of a subscription and I do regularly so it's definately not about money as much as you want to make it about that.

[zookeeper]

I'm not saying pay for the game I am saying this whole conversation is and was fueled by the recent changes to the payment system, so maybe you missed that and need to grasp something.

[GuideRaguel]

Greetings Survivors!

This thread has gone on and I have watched it develop and the responses given from other players.

The point of the OP has now been made.

And I am closing this thread, as it will only develop further into a flame wars.

Thank you.