Loading Times

[KeithStone]

With talks of the upcoming content releases like Zombies, Totem Decay, etc and eventually free time and some advertising I feel like an important thing to work on before the next influx of players coming in might be the loading times.

It's always been that you are as strong as your weakest link, with everything that has come out and with the upcoming features this game will finally be in a position to make a name for itself.

After everything has been released that is on the table right now Xsyon's weakest link will be it's loading times to get in game. I know there are lots of features that are coming, but my point is if you take what is going to be in game at that time I think the loading times are going to be the most talked about.

There are so many great things you can do in Xsyon and the crowed that was here at launch that came for the PVP will do a lot of complaining about the load times especially when they get killed and are trying to get back to the action as fast as possible.

The only thing I can think of if the loading times can't be decreased would be to get a revive skill in the game and increase the timer from 30 sec to 1-2 min and not allow someone the ability to move around.

Basically when you get killed you would be laying down facing straight up at the sky while your timer is counting down without the ability to move around.

If you are not revived within 1-2 min you would be sent back to your totem.

My suggestion would be a 2 min timer I think that would be balanced when compared to how long you have to wait at the loading screen to get back into the fight.

Also, there's no fast travel in the game like mounts, so when people do across the game world and get sent all the way back to their totem it's just about impossible to come back to the action.

I know that some people will think so what, they were killed so they don't deserve not to come back - however I'm trying to think about the frustration that most people will experience with either really long loading times or not having the ability to revive someone.

[Willowhawk]

I like your idea Kieth. The death loading window is a total buzz kill. Even though the loading time could be perceived as a death penalty, it would be a lame death penalty. LOL


However the self resurrection skill seems a bit unrealistic or anti-roll play to me. Why not have something we would have to accomplish if we want to avoid the resurrect at home loading screen penalty.


Just an idea here; Give us the option of the regular 30 second res at home, and a second option like finding a spirit to resurrect us. This could be something as easy as finding a body of water, rivers lake where spirits could reside. This way you most likely won't be resurrecting in the exact place you died, but you won't have to go very far to resurrect. And this gives any players time to move on preventing retaliatory action by the dead player.


There wouldn't have to be an actual NPC spirit though that would be more visually convincing. It could simply be a command or maybe you need a certain herb or something as a sacrifice, drop it in the water and you will get resurrected. It could even be done so you have to forage for some "Death Herb" while you are dead before you can get resurrected.


Anyway, good call I agree I think this does need some change.

[simple69]

I agree with pretty much all of this and would like to see it in game. Our tribe has talked alot about this as well. These are all really good suggestions.

[KeithStone]

I like your idea... ...However the self resurrection skill seems a bit unrealistic or anti-roll play to me.=

i wasn't talking about a self ressurrection, i was talking more about your team mate reviving you.

It's easier if you think about this way

you get attacked and when you run out of HP you are laying there bleeding out, your team mate would have 2 min to patch you up and revive you - depending on their revive skill or what type of patch they used on you would determine how much hp/energy you are revived with.

[Willowhawk]

OK that I like for sure :)

[MrDDT]

With talks of the upcoming content releases like Zombies, Totem Decay, etc and eventually free time and some advertising I feel like an important thing to work on before the next influx of players coming in might be the loading times.

It's always been that you are as strong as your weakest link, with everything that has come out and with the upcoming features this game will finally be in a position to make a name for itself.

After everything has been released that is on the table right now Xsyon's weakest link will be it's loading times to get in game. I know there are lots of features that are coming, but my point is if you take what is going to be in game at that time I think the loading times are going to be the most talked about.

There are so many great things you can do in Xsyon and the crowed that was here at launch that came for the PVP will do a lot of complaining about the load times especially when they get killed and are trying to get back to the action as fast as possible.

The only thing I can think of if the loading times can't be decreased would be to get a revive skill in the game and increase the timer from 30 sec to 1-2 min and not allow someone the ability to move around.

Basically when you get killed you would be laying down facing straight up at the sky while your timer is counting down without the ability to move around.

If you are not revived within 1-2 min you would be sent back to your totem.

My suggestion would be a 2 min timer I think that would be balanced when compared to how long you have to wait at the loading screen to get back into the fight.

Also, there's no fast travel in the game like mounts, so when people do across the game world and get sent all the way back to their totem it's just about impossible to come back to the action.

I know that some people will think so what, they were killed so they don't deserve not to come back - however I'm trying to think about the frustration that most people will experience with either really long loading times or not having the ability to revive someone.


All good points.

Couple of things to add/change.

1) If you make the death timer longer, you should give the option to tab out after 30s. So you can wait up to 2 mins for a rez, or you can tap out after 30seconds wait time. This will allow people not to have to shit through faceplant view for 2 mins when they know they wont be rez'd. Darkfall does this.

2) I think there should also be a "deathblow" or "gank" or "finisher" move where not only do you kill the person (puts them on the ground) but you would also have to do another action that can be interrupted to kill them off. Killing them off would then either force them to get rez'd by something or send them back to the totem. If you are not "finished off" you can pop back up after 30s with 1HP again. This will allow teamwork. Again other games do this. Also this will allow duels to happen without sending to the totem all the time.

3) I think items should decay on deathport. Meaning if you die, ALL the items on you (even items in your inventory) take a 20% dura, and 10% QL loss on decay. This will help prevent deathporting all the time.

4) Healing needs to have more ways to be done other than just the slow painful way of the not moving. Herbs, bandages, potions, magic, clothing etc. Also rezing someone should have chance to fail based on how bad they died.


As the OP said, this is for able to play with other people, the upto 40mins travel time to get back to your friends can be harsh.

[Drevar]

I just wish they would fix it so that if you die within sight of your totem the game didn't need to reset the client and redownload the entire set of world data. I already have all the data I need, I'm 50m from my damn totem!

[joexxxz]

@Drevar, I agree with you on that. If you are close to your totem, why loading again?

[Dzarren]

I actually laughed about this thread, worrying about loading times :)
The game is still unstable, i keep having lag issues and not only zone crossing lag.
Then we arent talking about the crashing issues, database faults and zone data not loading.
Pfff worrying about loading times
And do you really think a lot of poeple will play an game where the only body with admin powers gets accused of favorism,censorship and even griefing?
Ow i am not saying its true and onlly experienced the guides as positive, but i have been hearing this for an while now.
So i worry about other things

[KeithStone]

I actually laughed about this thread, worrying about loading times :)
The game is still unstable, i keep having lag issues and not only zone crossing lag.
Then we arent talking about the crashing issues, database faults and zone data not loading.
Pfff worrying about loading times
And do you really think a lot of poeple will play an game where the only body with admin powers gets accused of favorism,censorship and even griefing?
Ow i am not saying its true and onlly experienced the guides as positive, but i have been hearing this for an while now.
So i worry about other things

I am only here to help and try to make things better.

Also, you shouldn't believe everything you hear.

[Dzarren]

Also, you shouldn't believe everything you hear.

Never said that and it actually doesnt matter, just the accusition is enough to damage the game community.
I just hope they take appropiate action and communicate that back too us on the forums, so that any doubt is taken away
I appreciate youre concerns but in my opinion there are more pressing matters, still enjoying the game though.
And please keep posting any feedback is good because the game will grow by it.

[znaiika]

3) I think items should decay on deathport. Meaning if you die, ALL the items on you (even items in your inventory) take a 20% dura, and 10% QL loss on decay. This will help prevent deathporting all the time.


Just to be clear: are you saying items should decay upon death in addition to regular decay? your suggestion for noobs would be a killer " a nail in the head ".
Items should have time decay only in my opinion not upon death.
Death penalty could be better if people are above 90 in all statuses, but not item decay, instead! some statuses that correspond with combat. Some people have all the statuses at 100 and have nothing else to do, so they want to make noobs suffer by creating harsh rules?
At all statuses at 100 one can kill a noob with two hits, do they find that enjoyable?
This is where grieffing come in.

Nothing personal MrDDT this needs to be looked/thought over.

[dem1urge]

@Drevar, I agree with you on that. If you are close to your totem, why loading again?

Yes, they should use the /unstuck mode of movement for all TP's. It's quick!

[Book]

I think deathporting sounds like it might be somewhat of a distracting issue to include with this for right now... if it's okay with everyone, I'd suggest a different thread down the road to address that if needed. I think the OP's intent was to talk about improving gameplay for group pvp and reducing the frustration involved so the game can have the best chance to retain players.

So if I understood, the idea is to avoid the reload screen, so in essence, to try and delay the current death mechanic.

The revive thing sounds interesting, even a new player that doesn't have much HP could help with that in place. Maybe using a talisman of some kind in the right hand made with herbs, special wood, etc?

What about a "medicine" cart as a portable respawn point? That might have to involve the reload screen though, not sure.

I like the idea of having a chance to opt out and take the 30 seconds back to totem since not everyone will want to wait 2 mins if not engaged in pvp (or group pve for that matter), but for pvp, would this give the home team too great an advantage? Granted if they cut out early, they would have to sit through the reload screen so that might even things out.

The finishing move sounds interesting. I wouldn't mind having that option when fighting an animal as well, to have the option to incapacitate it but not kill it so I have a chance to let it live but off my back. If involving animals makes it more complicated to get done though, ignore that completely :)

My only concern, which can probably be alleviated pretty easily but still needs mentioning, is that it might make more powerful players all that much harder to kill, and would not affect them as much since their inherent strength would make a finishing blow no big deal to them.

gotta get movin but I'll give this some more thought.

[MrDDT]

Just to be clear: are you saying items should decay upon death in addition to regular decay? your suggestion for noobs would be a killer " a nail in the head ".
Items should have time decay only in my opinion not upon death.
Death penalty could be better if people are above 90 in all statuses, but not item decay, instead! some statuses that correspond with combat. Some people have all the statuses at 100 and have nothing else to do, so they want to make noobs suffer by creating harsh rules?
At all statuses at 100 one can kill a noob with two hits, do they find that enjoyable?
This is where grieffing come in.

Nothing personal MrDDT this needs to be looked/thought over.


Noobs can be killed in 2 hits now, and if they are killed by a player they wont have to worry about the decay on their items as they wouldnt have those items. So really this is just a moot point here by you.

If it were by animals, or suicides then I see no problems with it. Also dont forget with this decay on death, you would also get healing herbs so you dont die as much, potions, magic healing, rezzing etc.
With out the last part, the first part is to harsh.

You can even merge this with the "good" "neutral" "evil" system where say players that follow the strike rules of "good" wont suffer but like 10% decay dura, and 5% decay on QL. While "neutrals" will suffer full 20% dura, and 10% QL decay, and "evils" will suffer 40% dura, and 20% QL decay.

These are just overall concepts also. I think the balance is right, but hey that is my opinion.

Just FYI its current impossible to have 100 in all stats.
Killing new players in 2 hits isnt really a factor for this current topic as I can see. Now the fact that noobs die a lot is, which this can help. See the "ganking/deathblow" idea in this thread. If you add that, noobs wont die as much, they will be put on the ground and out of the fight for 30s, but they wont have to respawn back home. Saving time on loading screens and able to play with others advanced players.

[znaiika]

Noobs can be killed in 2 hits now, and if they are killed by a player they wont have to worry about the decay on their items as they wouldnt have those items. So really this is just a moot point here by you.

If it were by animals, or suicides then I see no problems with it. Also dont forget with this decay on death, you would also get healing herbs so you dont die as much, potions, magic healing, rezzing etc.
With out the last part, the first part is to harsh.

You can even merge this with the "good" "neutral" "evil" system where say players that follow the strike rules of "good" wont suffer but like 10% decay dura, and 5% decay on QL. While "neutrals" will suffer full 20% dura, and 10% QL decay, and "evils" will suffer 40% dura, and 20% QL decay.

These are just overall concepts also. I think the balance is right, but hey that is my opinion.

Just FYI its current impossible to have 100 in all stats.
Killing new players in 2 hits isnt really a factor for this current topic as I can see. Now the fact that noobs die a lot is, which this can help. See the "ganking/deathblow" idea in this thread. If you add that, noobs wont die as much, they will be put on the ground and out of the fight for 30s, but they wont have to respawn back home. Saving time on loading screens and able to play with others advanced players.

I can see a good point in this, still not convinced on item decay over death, and why do we need item decay on death, FYI, new player can manage to skill his/her scavenge, tailor, leather, tools and some other skills in the first four weaks, so he would still be a noob but could have good items.

[Book]

Now the fact that noobs die a lot is, which this can help. See the "ganking/deathblow" idea in this thread. If you add that, noobs wont die as much, they will be put on the ground and out of the fight for 30s, but they wont have to respawn back home. Saving time on loading screens and able to play with others advanced players.

I think I'm totally missing something with this deathblow thing. It's an option that can be taken by the winning player right? Why would anyone not use it if their stronghold is being attacked?

/confused.

[znaiika]

One way to lower loading time is to have client to hold all graphics, music etc... That is what other games do.

[MrDDT]

I can see a good point in this, still not convinced on item decay over death, and why do we need item decay on death, FYI, new player can manage to skill his/her scavenge, tailor, leather, tools and some other skills in the first four weaks, so he would still be a noob but could have good items.

I dont think you know what good items are, you should try playing a bit more.


I think I'm totally missing something with this deathblow thing. It's an option that can be taken by the winning player right? Why would anyone not use it if their stronghold is being attacked?

/confused.

Because you would still have 2 to 5mins of loading times vs someone coming to rez you and heal you up. Which could take seconds.
Also if you had death punishments (like the one I listed above) you would have to suffer those also.

[znaiika]

I dont think you know what good items are, you should try playing a bit more.


I don't follow you, are you talking about specific items or all items?

[Book]

Because you would still have 2 to 5mins of loading times vs someone coming to rez you and heal you up. Which could take seconds.
Also if you had death punishments (like the one I listed above) you would have to suffer those also.

ah, ok, I think I get it. So it's an option for the losing player. Say Keith bonks me on the head (please don't :) ), I have the option of making his strike a "deathblow" and get outta there in 30s... or I can not click that option and wait the full 2mins before it goes to reload screen in the hopes someone (perhaps Keith) takes pity and revives me.

Is that right?
Maybe include the option to refuse revival so I'm not stuck there getting bonked/revived repeatedly? :rolleyes:

So this would cut down on load time if a revive is available, and travel time if revive is available.

If revive is not programatically feasible for some reason(or would take a very long time to implement), does anyone like the portable spawn cart idea as a shorter term stopgap? Wouldn't save on reload time, but would save on travel time until the pvp opponents discover its location(s).
I think players didn't always respawn at their totem so there must already be something in the code to bind respawn location?

not really looking at death punishments just yet so we can hopefully stay on target with what Keith was talking about...

[MrDDT]

I don't follow you, are you talking about specific items or all items?

ALL items even the ones you are wearing and the ones in your inventory (to help prevent deathporting with 1800 Leather).


ah, ok, I think I get it. So it's an option for the losing player. Say Keith bonks me on the head (please don't :) ), I have the option of making his strike a "deathblow" and get outta there in 30s... or I can not click that option and wait the full 2mins before it goes to reload screen in the hopes someone (perhaps Keith) takes pity and revives me.

Is that right?
Maybe include the option to refuse revival so I'm not stuck there getting bonked/revived repeatedly? :rolleyes:

So this would cut down on load time if a revive is available, and travel time if revive is available.

If revive is not programatically feasible for some reason(or would take a very long time to implement), does anyone like the portable spawn cart idea as a shorter term stopgap? Wouldn't save on reload time, but would save on travel time until the pvp opponents discover its location(s).
I think players didn't always respawn at their totem so there must already be something in the code to bind respawn location?

not really looking at death punishments just yet so we can hopefully stay on target with what Keith was talking about...


There are 2 things here.

1) Deathblow = Action the attacker does to prevent you from getting back up without another player using rez powers on you (rez powers can be a spell, bandages, potions, herbs etc) If you dont recieve a deathblow you can get back up off the ground after 30s. (With the option to tap out if you dont want to get back up, as you said to prevent repeat knockdowns) If you do tap out, you must still wait the 30s.
2) If knocked down player is delivered a deathblow by ANY person (doesnt have to be the one that knocked you down) you will not get back up after 30s. You have between the time you are knocked down, to up to 2mins to get rez'd (again someone other than yourself using spells, bandages, potions, herbs etc). If you choose not to wait the full 2mins, you can tap out after 30s and return to your totem.

This system above, is what I believe Xsyon was wanting to do but didnt get to it. He wanted people to be knocked out, and able not always to fight to the death.


Players currently always respawn at their own totem. If they have no totem, they respawn on founders isle.

I dont like the portable cart respawn as there is no way to prevent someone from parting it 2feet outside your tribe and respawning over and over.

This system is a little different than DarkFalls, but the concept is the same.

In Darkfall, you would be knocked down on the ground for 2mins, if you dont tap out you will at the end of 2mins respawn at your bind-stone. Other players can rez you.
If another player "ganks" your deathblows you, you would instantly be respawned, no chance for rez.

[znaiika]

ALL items even the ones you are wearing and the ones in your inventory (to help prevent deathporting with 1800 Leather).


So your saying 1800 leather are good items? No offence but this is nonsense.
Why do you need to have items decay on death-port if all you have to do is to have a check for how much you can carry, even from basket to basket transform, just like if you pick rocks and it would let you pick so much before refuse to pick more?
And what happen when we get heavy stuff from Guides as a reward of some kind? Like we got tar from last knights test help.

[MrDDT]

So your saying 1800 leather are good items? No offence but this is nonsense.
Why do you need to have items decay on death-port if all you have to do is to have a check for how much you can carry, even from basket to basket transform, just like if you pick rocks and it would let you pick so much before refuse to pick more?
And what happen when we get heavy stuff from Guides as a reward of some kind? Like we got tar from last knights test help.

It shouldnt matter if they are "good stuff" or not. I'm not sure what moving from basket to basket has to do with this.
If you pick up 1800 leather, and die you will right now be transported any length back to your totem, it could be 11 zones. This isn't good for many reasons, which I wont debate here. As it would derail the topic.

If you get heavy stuff from the guides, mostly they teleport people back to their tribes, being teleported isn't the same as dying. Deathporting will cause the decay, not being transported by guide powers.
If the guides don't see fit to teleport people that means, it should be transported using in game tools, (like carts or players, and later I expect boats, pack animals etc).

[Book]

There are 2 things here.

1) Deathblow = Action the attacker does to prevent you from getting back up without another player using rez powers on you (rez powers can be a spell, bandages, potions, herbs etc) If you dont recieve a deathblow you can get back up off the ground after 30s. (With the option to tap out if you dont want to get back up, as you said to prevent repeat knockdowns) If you do tap out, you must still wait the 30s.
2) If knocked down player is delivered a deathblow by ANY person (doesnt have to be the one that knocked you down) you will not get back up after 30s. You have between the time you are knocked down, to up to 2mins to get rez'd (again someone other than yourself using spells, bandages, potions, herbs etc). If you choose not to wait the full 2mins, you can tap out after 30s and return to your totem.

This system above, is what I believe Xsyon was wanting to do but didnt get to it. He wanted people to be knocked out, and able not always to fight to the death.

Ah, ok, thanks, I get it. It does seem somewhat superfluous in the situations Keith was talking about since the fundamental mechanic really is the revive. In a pvp battle situation, people will use the deathblow. Why wouldn't they? Which pretty much brings it to what Keith was talking about.
I can see the value in what you're saying for friendl(ier) duels though. Definitely something to keep in mind for the future.



Players currently always respawn at their own totem. If they have no totem, they respawn on founders isle.

I dont like the portable cart respawn as there is no way to prevent someone from parting it 2feet outside your tribe and respawning over and over.

That's why I brought up the spawn binds being already somewhere in the code. They had a mechanism that spawned people back at their dead bodies, which could be anywhere on the map, before implementing the current spawn at totem system. I can't remember if you had said you were there for that, but anyway, that means there already exists the code-base to implement binding a player's spawn at a particular and temporary location. Anytime you can recycle code will be that much faster to push out.

The idea that they can respawn near you would kinda be the idea ;) I know it's a bad thing in a griefing situation but having to travel all the way across the map to re-engage is one of the things Keith brought up as being one of the major frustrations of any previous pvp-exodus. (at least I think Keith was the one who said it, I'm starving, cut me some slack)

I was just thinking this might be a quick(er) fix if an influx of affected players might be coming in soon. *shrug* throw it at the wall and see if it sticks.

Either way, Keith's point is a good one for pvper's, and I think for pve players as well when going on a long roadtrip together.

I also like the strategic considerations of these spawn thingies but that's a completely different story and so totally doesn't belong here ;)

[MrDDT]

Ah, ok, thanks, I get it. It does seem somewhat superfluous in the situations Keith was talking about since the fundamental mechanic really is the revive. In a pvp battle situation, people will use the deathblow. Why wouldn't they? Which pretty much brings it to what Keith was talking about.
I can see the value in what you're saying for friendl(ier) duels though. Definitely something to keep in mind for the future.

I think there might be some confusion still.

If someone deathblows you, it doesnt send you to your totem, it just makes it so that you cant get up on your own. You need outside help (like he said in the OP), I added the self rez (sorta) option with IF NO DEATHBLOW, you can get back up off the ground by yourself.

If someone does a deathblow it will work just like the OP said. Where someone (other than yourself) can revive you.





That's why I brought up the spawn binds being already somewhere in the code. They had a mechanism that spawned people back at their dead bodies, which could be anywhere on the map, before implementing the current spawn at totem system. I can't remember if you had said you were there for that, but anyway, that means there already exists the code-base to implement binding a player's spawn at a particular and temporary location. Anytime you can recycle code will be that much faster to push out.

The idea that they can respawn near you would kinda be the idea ;) I know it's a bad thing in a griefing situation but having to travel all the way across the map to re-engage is one of the things Keith brought up as being one of the major frustrations of any previous pvp-exodus. (at least I think Keith was the one who said it, I'm starving, cut me some slack)

I was just thinking this might be a quick(er) fix if an influx of affected players might be coming in soon. *shrug* throw it at the wall and see if it sticks.

Either way, Keith's point is a good one for pvper's, and I think for pve players as well when going on a long roadtrip together.

I also like the strategic considerations of these spawn thingies but that's a completely different story and so totally doesn't belong here ;)


I think able to respawn at allies totems (ask permission to bind, pay to bind, allies/friends able to bind etc systems) would be great. It wouldn't be "anywhere" but it would be great tactics for defense (which IMO defense should have this advantage).

I think when siege system gets put into place, they could even do something where if you are sieging you can set up a temp respawn area at the cost of resources etc.

[znaiika]

It shouldnt matter if they are "good stuff" or not. I'm not sure what moving from basket to basket has to do with this.
If you pick up 1800 leather, and die you will right now be transported any length back to your totem, it could be 11 zones. This isn't good for many reasons, which I wont debate here. As it would derail the topic.


I meant from basket on the ground to one you equip, it shouldn't let you pick-up so much weight.
It should work same way as you pick rocks.

[MrDDT]

I meant from basket on the ground to one you equip, it shouldn't let you pick-up so much weight.
It should work same way as you pick rocks.

Still a problem with transporting max weight over unlimited # of zones. Just think of later also once the map grows.

Also, not able to pick up over the limit on stuff you would have major playing issues. Try picking up 200 bricks to load it into a roof. You would have to load it like 10 times. Just no need for that type of pain when it already has issues like I said above.

[KeithStone]

I think I'm totally missing something with this deathblow thing. It's an option that can be taken by the winning player right? Why would anyone not use it if their stronghold is being attacked?

/confused.

DDT's suggestion about the death toll comes from darkfall - it works like this:

1. You kill said player during a fight.
2. That player falls down stuck on the ground in a face up position and starts to bleed out.
3. If they are not revived by another player within the bleed out period, it's about 2 min if i remember correctly then they are sent back to the loading screen and sent to their bind point.

The catch though in Darkfall is the finishing move has about a 3-4 sec animation before it happens, so during that time you could get hit by another player if you try to stop long enough to revive someone.

It's a matter of how much risk your team mates can take to stop and rez you.

However, I think most of you are making this really complicated - I have my dream vision of how I want things to work - but my point of this thread was to come up with a simple solution that would solve the major problem with the loading screen.

Either fix the loading screen, or give us a simple way to revive to help avoid it and keep it fair for everyone - it can always be improved on later, right now i think the point is to get the next round of features completed so they can finally advertise the site, get totem decay going and give old players a chance to try the game out again with some free time.

I don't want to it to be something that's going to take up to much more time.

[MrDDT]

3. If they are not revived by another player within the bleed out period, it's about 2 min if i remember correctly then they are sent back to the loading screen and sent to their bind point.


Its up to 2mins, you could use the spacebar and go right back to the totem if you didnt want to wait for a rez (or knew it wasnt coming).

What I was asking would work sorta like that but you wouldn't bleed out, you would heal back up and come back to life with 1 HP.

[znaiika]

Still a problem with transporting max weight over unlimited # of zones. Just think of later also once the map grows.


What would it change? " item decay " that is, people would still do it, but with limited maximum weight on your back that would take longer.
And death-port is not a time-shift to magically decay items.
HP, energy, food and water, should be at minimum after death, to have some kind of penalty, and maybe -10 to combat statuses and skills for 15 minutes.
That should be enough penalty for death.

[MrDDT]

What would it change? " item decay " that is, people would still do it, but with limited maximum weight on your back that would take longer.
And death-port is not a time-shift to magically decay items.
HP, energy, food and water, should be at minimum after death, to have some kind of penalty, and maybe -10 to combat statuses and skills for 15 minutes.
That should be enough penalty for death.

If you are talking about magic, you shouldn't magically have all your stuff at your totem when you come back from death. Are you really talking about "magically decay" when you are magically coming back to life with all your items magically teleporting with you? Yet you point out that its not a system to magically decay the items that magically were shifted to another area. Did you think about this before you posted it?


I think those are all good those could be used however, if people just use alts to transport goods the goods still get moved unharmed and they could care less the temp decay or stats on alts. This way it prevents people from doing that. I think both penalties should be done, items and player.

If items had perma dura/QL decay, and the player had temp decay of skills/stats plus food water energy/hp it would be great.

Also I think a system with good/neutral/evil would work well with this also.

[Dzarren]

What the OP actuelly wanted is that the loading times get shorter in general.
But the the first question would be why are these so long.
As far is understood it works as follows:
It first loads an basic world and then they load all the made changes over it.
The basic world gets the player changes baked in at an certain moment.
What i expected was when they split up zones in smaller zones the loading times would decrease , this didnt happen so there is something in the loading mechanism i dont understand.
what would improve loading entities, which is the greatest delay, would be an better setup of loading and better rules on this.
For example one can store the basic world on youre computer and only update it after an new imprint has been done.
Also first loading youre subzone and spawn you in the world and then load the rest.
For me they dont have to load als subzones when i spawn in the world, just the one i am in now is fine with me and then the rest.
it would take some smart rules but isnt that hard i think.

[znaiika]

If items had perma dura/QL decay.


Imagine a noob die 5 times, with 20% item decay? he would loose all his gear and weapons, that leaves him with nothing to survive with, I think item decay is too harsh rule when you are a noob.
MrDDT? ever thought deleting your character and start alone in the wilderness? and don't use anything from your alts, that will ruing the challenge, maybe then you will feel what a noob feel.

If you have limit on weight you can carry and temporary decay of skills/stats plus food water energy/hp? then it would be better, for noobs as well, they won't suffer as much, and would still be a challenge.

@Dzarren.
Many games are holding most data on clients pc and only update once a month or so, depends on ho big is the mod.
I understand why Xsyon doing this way, it's easier to make changes and they can update anytime they need, but the way they do it is probably the cause for these lags, since data needs to checked constantly between user and provider.

[Book]

I'm gonna go out on a total limb here, oh, but before I do, thanks for clearing up the death toll thing, makes more sense now... back to my limb :)

Dumping a lot of information into memory shouldn't necessarily take all that long I don't think. However, considering how malleable the world in xsyon is, I'm thinking it takes a LOT of calculations at the cpu/alu to draw the world and put everything where it is at this moment.
This is leading me to think the optimizations needed are very low level, compiler level, to somehow keep more information / instructions from memory into cpu cache itself so the cpu doesn't have to go to memory for information as often.

Not sure there's enough coffee in the world for me to try and work out how one would even do that but I just wonder to what extent it's something like that.

I think people sometimes say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and that's pretty much where I'm at on this sort of thing :D but I do find it fascinating and have been trying to learn more about it. Strange things are sometimes afoot at the bit level I tell ya.

[Drevar]

Loading up the zone and even terrain seems to go very swiftly, so a caching/versioning system probably wouldn't give a significant increase in loading speed. What seems to be the bottleneck is the entities. The way they are stored, sent, and processed appears to need a whole hell of a lot of optimizing. Either there is just too much data on each world object, or the server and client are very ineffecient in sending and processing the data. It makes me wonder how things like containers are handled; does the client see all the contents of every container, even if the player doesn't have access, or are the contents only sent upon accessing the container...things like that.

Also, can objects be combined, sent, and processed in batches? For example, send all local trees as one package of data and process them together instead of basket 3358968, tent 4449585, tree 3938376, wall 22898287, tree 2938898, gate 883838, grass bundle 6668387, etc. Actions that affect the objects on the client side can be queued while loading (someone chopping down a tree while you are still loading trees or picking up a basket while loading the list of container objects) as they are not time critical.

I also suspect the long loading screen is hiding the ugliness of the world "popping in" as the items are streamed. I know we are already in the game long before entities is done, as evidenced by chat already being displayed, ambient sounds playing, etc. while still loading. Moving around and possibly requesting new world objects before the initial objects have even completed loading can cause all kinds of problems..I've seen it in other games where they allow you to disable the load screen.

Some optimization, I am sure, would come from new architecture "composites" that currently take multiple small parts to achieve the same effect. If you are doing a long run of granite walls, you don't need 50 small segments if you could have 25 or even 10 larger segments.

It is too bad this is all conjecture since noone but Jordi and maybe one or two others can answer any of this, if they even had the time to do so.

[MrDDT]

What the OP actuelly wanted is that the loading times get shorter in general.
But the the first question would be why are these so long.
As far is understood it works as follows:
It first loads an basic world and then they load all the made changes over it.
The basic world gets the player changes baked in at an certain moment.
What i expected was when they split up zones in smaller zones the loading times would decrease , this didnt happen so there is something in the loading mechanism i dont understand.
what would improve loading entities, which is the greatest delay, would be an better setup of loading and better rules on this.
For example one can store the basic world on youre computer and only update it after an new imprint has been done.
Also first loading youre subzone and spawn you in the world and then load the rest.
For me they dont have to load als subzones when i spawn in the world, just the one i am in now is fine with me and then the rest.
it would take some smart rules but isnt that hard i think.

He was talking about IF they cant lower the time (which they already cut it by over 1/2 already just FYI) then maybe we should think of how its effecting people and try to limit the loading times while still keeping play the same or better.



Imagine a noob die 5 times, with 20% item decay? he would loose all his gear and weapons, that leaves him with nothing to survive with, I think item decay is too harsh rule when you are a noob.
MrDDT? ever thought deleting your character and start alone in the wilderness? and don't use anything from your alts, that will ruing the challenge, maybe then you will feel what a noob feel.

If you have limit on weight you can carry and temporary decay of skills/stats plus food water energy/hp? then it would be better, for noobs as well, they won't suffer as much, and would still be a challenge.

@Dzarren.
Many games are holding most data on clients pc and only update once a month or so, depends on ho big is the mod.
I understand why Xsyon doing this way, it's easier to make changes and they can update anytime they need, but the way they do it is probably the cause for these lags, since data needs to checked constantly between user and provider.


If a noob dies 5 times, then and say the QL was supreme, then it would be 80% of 100 (supreme = 100 btw) = 80 for death 1. Death 2 = 80% of 80 which is 64, Death 3 = 51.2, Death 4 = 41, Death 5 = 37.8.

As you can see they can do this MANY times, before being without a item.

Znaiika, Ive already done it. Its really easy for a vet like me who understands how to play and fight to do these things. You act like I dont deal with noobs everyday. I run the largest tribe in the game right now and we cater to new players. Most of the problems with a new player isnt how hard it is to get something but understanding HOW to do things. Just basic things like making grass twine is hard when you have no idea how to do it. Making or getting the items in Xsyon is really really really easy.




I'm gonna go out on a total limb here, oh, but before I do, thanks for clearing up the death toll thing, makes more sense now... back to my limb :)

Dumping a lot of information into memory shouldn't necessarily take all that long I don't think. However, considering how malleable the world in xsyon is, I'm thinking it takes a LOT of calculations at the cpu/alu to draw the world and put everything where it is at this moment.
This is leading me to think the optimizations needed are very low level, compiler level, to somehow keep more information / instructions from memory into cpu cache itself so the cpu doesn't have to go to memory for information as often.

Not sure there's enough coffee in the world for me to try and work out how one would even do that but I just wonder to what extent it's something like that.

I think people sometimes say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and that's pretty much where I'm at on this sort of thing :D but I do find it fascinating and have been trying to learn more about it. Strange things are sometimes afoot at the bit level I tell ya.


Loading up the zone and even terrain seems to go very swiftly, so a caching/versioning system probably wouldn't give a significant increase in loading speed. What seems to be the bottleneck is the entities. The way they are stored, sent, and processed appears to need a whole hell of a lot of optimizing. Either there is just too much data on each world object, or the server and client are very ineffecient in sending and processing the data. It makes me wonder how things like containers are handled; does the client see all the contents of every container, even if the player doesn't have access, or are the contents only sent upon accessing the container...things like that.

Also, can objects be combined, sent, and processed in batches? For example, send all local trees as one package of data and process them together instead of basket 3358968, tent 4449585, tree 3938376, wall 22898287, tree 2938898, gate 883838, grass bundle 6668387, etc. Actions that affect the objects on the client side can be queued while loading (someone chopping down a tree while you are still loading trees or picking up a basket while loading the list of container objects) as they are not time critical.

I also suspect the long loading screen is hiding the ugliness of the world "popping in" as the items are streamed. I know we are already in the game long before entities is done, as evidenced by chat already being displayed, ambient sounds playing, etc. while still loading. Moving around and possibly requesting new world objects before the initial objects have even completed loading can cause all kinds of problems..I've seen it in other games where they allow you to disable the load screen.

Some optimization, I am sure, would come from new architecture "composites" that currently take multiple small parts to achieve the same effect. If you are doing a long run of granite walls, you don't need 50 small segments if you could have 25 or even 10 larger segments.

It is too bad this is all conjecture since noone but Jordi and maybe one or two others can answer any of this, if they even had the time to do so.


All 3 of you guys really guessing at the coding side is really futile as we have no real idea how they are doing things. We can guess all day and be wrong, debating wrong guesses or not.

Like the OP said IF they cant reduce the time maybe its time to see other aspects to cutting down the reasons to get to the loading screen.
I think these things should be in, and I believe the OP is saying to push it up on the priorities list. Before expecting a ton of new players.

[Book]

All 3 of you guys really guessing at the coding side is really futile as we have no real idea how they are doing things. We can guess all day and be wrong, debating wrong guesses or not.


Well of course it's a guess, and I didn't think of it as a debate really, thought of it as more of a discussion. Drevar pointed out it's conjecture, I said I was out on a limb, Dzarren prefaced by saying it was "as far as he understood." The 3 of us you referred to knew we were guessing :) It's just really fun stuff to think about and really fun (to me anyway) to bounce ideas around.

Fun's allowed right? :rolleyes:

Anyway, don't know about everyone else but kinda feels like what could have been a good discussion just got bonked over the head. Disperse people, nothing to see here :p

[znaiika]

All 3 of you guys really guessing at the coding side is really futile as we have no real idea how they are doing things. We can guess all day and be wrong, debating wrong guesses or not.


For example Fallen Earth has a world like this and really don't have a loading problems as in Xsyon, since most of its content on client side.
I am not sure if that is the problem or not, but if you have most of the content on client pc? it would take a lot less to stream the rest of the content.
Every time you get in the game, you have to wait until all of its content loads for display on client side, only then you can play.
This is my point of view I may be wrong.

[fotuenti]

i'm replying to this more in the spirit of the "for fun" discussion of computer systems.


This is leading me to think the optimizations needed are very low level, compiler level, to somehow keep more information / instructions from memory into cpu cache itself so the cpu doesn't have to go to memory for information as often.

Although it may be true that the needed improvements are "low level", I doubt they are compiler level optimizations and more likely it has to do with the way the data is being distributed to the clients and then the clients to process the data into something that gets put on the screen. This would point to an optimization in the Xsyon code base, but not the compiler. At a guess Notorious Games is already compiling the Xsyon executables with all compiler optimization turned on.

Also, most cpu cores have less than 15MB of cache memory. So while you are correct in the assertion that getting more things into cpu cache memory will improve speed, I doubt that the problems with loading entities have to do with not enough data getting into the cpu caches. It is possible that the algorithms used for loading the entities are large enough, or thrashes enough, that they frequently get displaced from the cpu cache, I highly doubt this is the cause of the problem.

Also please note, MrDDT I'm looking at you, that I am not speculating about what is wrong with Xsyon.exe, I just like talking about computer stuffs. :)