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GuideRaguel
04-09-2012, 05:29 PM
Hello Survivors,

The Test server is online with the latest build.

See the changes here... http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/1440-Xsyon-Updates

The Developers would like feedback on the following issues...

skill / stat / level up changes

specifically:


stat gain / loss (too fast, too slow)
skill balancing / loss (too much, too little)
health based on stats / skills comments


Please Note: All Stats are gaining at 25 times the normal rate, for Testing.

MrDDT
04-09-2012, 11:37 PM
Very hard to test it when the server has been down the whole time.

GuideRaguel
04-10-2012, 03:33 AM
Very hard to test it when the server has been down the whole time.

The Server is now back online.

GuideRaguel
04-10-2012, 07:14 AM
Keep the thread on topic, regarding the feedback requested.

Thank you.

thunXa
04-10-2012, 10:47 AM
Stats and Skill:
Gained 3.0 stats overall except spirit and intellegence which decreased by 0.1 each only = to less loss of stats in my opinion

Did some crafts - just a few actions each that i liked to keep up (Tailoring, Basketry, Leathercraft)
Skill gained from a midd skill (Bonecraft) - it was 45 and now up to 64.. for that i lost 0.2 Weaponcraft (64.6), 0.2 Woodcraft (67.2), 0.4 Firebuilding (5.5) and Wainwright (6.7) by 0.5
So i lost 1.3 Skillpoints in exchange for getting 19 Skillpoints (I didnt count how many i got from the 3 i wanted to keep up, probably about 3-5 Points more)
Why i didnt loose any Toolcraft (99.3) or Masonry (39.3) for not beeing used all the time?

Anyway getting a mid skill at close to a high skill at the cost of a few spread points = way to less loss of skill in my opinion


Health:

I dropped from ~175 (public) to 119 (test-server). (Edit: with my skillpoints used (Clubs 10-72) it would be 129

If i remember right someone said animals will be more tough to kill.
So i got throwed back miles with that patch and feel a bit sqishy against animals (I didnt test it now on the test server because when i tested at 04. April test patch it felt the animals HP went down to fast (because of the x25 speed?)

So you want the HP to balance with the animals along, please.



New display/notifications on skill and stats:

Nice display on the new learned bonecraft skills when i was testing.

But the display on stats only shows the progress being increased while stepping from .0 to .1 and whatever which of the 2 stats go through that step for being used at that for example craft - they are both shown up (Bonecraft = STR / DEX, - DEX went through the .0 to .1 and both be on display). (On public its the same, on test now just with the stats inside the message)
So the correct message now would be: "Your Strength OR Dexterity have been increased" :)

Might preffer a display on every +0.1 stats increase? I would so.


Architecture = Intellegence & Spirit:

I get 0.1 increase for Intellegence every 5 or 6 posts i build. Compared with the x25 speed it will be 125-150.

Dont you consider to give someone creating his hole homestead a few stats points? Most people dont reach even 125-150 for a single stats point.



Done with testing for now.




Added at 13:30 PM:


Experience and Level Up Revisions
- Level up panel is ready for testing.
- Leveling up skills gained adjust stats as if gained through actions.
- Leveling up skills are balanced in order selected.
- Leveling up skills gained do not gain experience.
- Actions such as running and swimming do not gain experience.

How will this work for those people, that allready put their skillpoints in? So can you track down what was used for a skill and rework the stats to what they should be after putting them in? Or do we finally need to make new characters?:)





E:
Not to be the negative guy - i preffer this setup alot more than the old one before on the test server

I just dont see the specialization much in here in meaning of the quality output which still can be boosted to nowhere with stats gear.

But might be also someone with very high skills at all get better results with testing it.

Xsyon
04-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Thank you for this feedback so far! The skill balancing has been adjusted already as I caught a problem with it incorrectly measuring the use count to decay least used skills.

Regarding players that already used past experience points to increase skills, it shouldn't be a big issue. The main goal of these changes are to allow players to adjust their skills and stats over time instead of just increasing them. There will be more opportunites to gain experience points that will allow this happen (quests, using skills already at 100).

Right now we will continue testing, revising and fixing bugs with the current changes. When we think these changes are ready for the public I will post about it. In the meantime, I look forward to more feedback or issues with what is currently live on the test server.

Thanks!

Drevar
04-10-2012, 09:04 PM
Skill window and level up window display different values for a skill. Gained .2 grinding masonry and my 100s in that group remained 100s in the skill window. Going into level up panel, however, my leathercraft, toolcraft, tailoring, basketry, woodworking, all show as 99. I know it drops the decimal in the level up panel, but dropping the .0 from 100.0 shouldn't be 99.

New info...after making some grass thread, string, etc. I got the shuffling sound and my skill panel reset as if I had gained in a skill. Nothing had changed, but in the level up panel my basketry was now shown as 100. Is this just bad display of a rounded number? Most of my 100s were gotten with the bugged skill panel that didn't update correctly. Had to log out and back in to get it to show the 100s, but maybe it wasn't actually yet at 100, just rounded up?

After additional testing...
Using skill points to level up skills is a total farce. Why does it take away other skills when using points? I used points to raise wainwright to 75 and my other skills got socked. Several of my 100s went from 100 to 96.9. The overall skill gained is higher than the skill lost in pure numbers, but in time and resources that is an earth shattering loss. I have already busted my butt gaining the XP to level and have earned those Level up skill points. Level up points should be above and beyond what you have earned via grinding. I thought intent of Leveling up was to represent what your character would be doing while the player is offline, without having to kill yourself grinding 24/7 to get all the skills you want. The old cap of 90 for leveling up a skill with points is even more crippling, as you can't even spend points to fix the damage done raising other skills.

The other half of the joke is that you gain a good amount of the stat that represents the skill you raise, but what if you don't have any skills left to raise that are influenced by a stat you want? You are stuck raising some crap skill you don't care about that will ruin your other skills that you do want to keep or you simply can't do it (if skills pertinent to your stat are 90+). If you choose not to, your Level up points are totally useless.

I guess it is best to spend your points in the current live system, before they become almost useless in the new system. (Note to players : Don't do this yet as we don't know what the final version will be like.)

I can suggest 3 options at the moment. Skill locks a la UO, allow a total reroll of our skills and stats to set us up in the new system without legacy issues, or scrap the entire XP and Level up point system.
*edit 2* A fourth option is a 100% sure-fire way to prevent loss that doesn't eat up 75% of our playing time just to maintain what we have spent a year getting to.

Added after 1 6 minutes:

I did a test simulating a new skill being introduced and using points to level that skill up. From a 5 skill in bonecrafting (4 in the level up panel--?) I raised it to 30 on the first go. A lot of my skills went down, including losing some 100s. I had not used them on test yet so they were obviously flagged as "least used". The bigger issue is that I had 14 recipes and by raising to 30 I had 71/91 schemes. That seems a bit much, no? On the second go, I took it all the way up to 90, and got to 103/107. I don't think the rate of learning schemes needs to be that liberal.

As far as the "least used" status of a skill issue, I would say we need to have a week on Live to establish our least used and desired skills before the auto-balancing kicks in. If the new counter goes into effect from one day to the next, the first few days after this release are going to be spent doing nothing but establishing our desired skills lest a single gain in a lesser skill destroy our current build.

MrDDT
04-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Stat gain is faster, skill gain seems to be about the same.

One thing I dont like is that you cant see the changes unless something hits a full point.
Also it doesnt say anything when something goes down.

Stat gains over 100 seem to be working, I couldnt really see the diff in over 90 in a stat or not. Seem to move just as fast.

I noticed also that skills at 100 did go down just as fast as skills at lower even without training. I believe that lower the skill the faster they should decay because they are easier to get back.

Hard to test stat changes in combat when no animals on the test server spent about 2 hours looking for animals.

I love the new display for hunted items and some other bonus items (comfort), so you can see what the bases are. Need a better way to stack rank the skills higher level than others. Losing .1 from 100 to 99.9 takes hours while going from 5.0 to 5.1 takes seconds.

About getting recipes Drevar that might be for another topic, as I only got 17 out of 35 recipes for wainwright, going from 5 to 90 skill, I started with 1. I think it might be something to do with your stats which might tie into this.
In which case I would be happy if this was from having high stats vs low stats.
Soon recipes will be easy to get with getting recipes after 100.

About the using skill points through the level up panel this is good 1 problem I see is that if I lose a skill from 100 to 99. I cant use the exp to train it back up. So seems like the best thing to do is keep your skills around 90. When really it should be 100.

Next thing is that how do I change my stats? I believe leveling up and older vets should be able to have options to change stats based on their levels of exp, and when you level up with exp. This will allow people to have more control of what they want to focus, able to do things outside their primary stats/skills and able to make it back up using skill from exp level ups, and stat points from exp level up.

Xsyon
04-12-2012, 05:37 AM
The reason high level skills can decay right now at the same rate as low level skills is to allow players to shift from one profession to another (and not be stuck with the high level skills blocking them from fast gains in other skills).

It's a dilemna and I think the best solution is skill locks as mentioned above. I'm working on that right now. When it's done we'll be ready for more proper testing.

tomduril
04-12-2012, 07:43 AM
Well for players with many high skills it will be like Drevar described - they will loose some of their high skills to level them "back" to "late starters". Eventually some will find themselfs as "generic" crafters at (some) high levels and some will pursue a more specialised crafting career and become the most famous "high end" crafters.

I believe that sacrificing the "everone can be excellent at everything" for a more divers world is a good step.
If I have to give up (or in that case loose) some high skills for that new world order, I am fine with it :)

However it is already quite hard to find a player with a high-end forestry skill that would collect VHQ/Master branches for me ... I hope that this will change? It quite depends on how fast people can swing between gathering skills - and if scavenging/forestry/foraging/resources/logging/hunting exclude each other, or its just about the crafting skills...

I very much like the interdependencies in the crafting skills - like needing master cloth straps to create master tools/weapons, master leather straps for master bone/cloth armor (and some tools). Today there is practically no trading of these "basic prepared" materials I think and hope that this will change with the new system.

Locking of one/some skills would still be very nice and give players more control about how they want their character to envolve!

Thank you for your work on the game - I like the direction the game is going ;)

Drevar
04-13-2012, 07:36 PM
Waiting to catch the Test server in an Up mood, hehe.

- Stats are gained when performing associated skills set to Normal, Locked or Plus.
Mentions stats, but can we assume the same applies to XP gain?

- Locks apply to skills that are gained and balance when levelling up.
I took this to mean that locks only apply to gaining skills by using them and that spending points in the level up panel ignores the locks and will still balance your skills. Is that correct?

MrDDT
04-14-2012, 01:42 AM
I like the locks, and how easy they are to use.

Couple of things after messing around with the test server.

4 skills + or locks = 5 high/max per pool currently on test. IMO this is way to much and should be cut down to 2 locks, which = 3 skills per pool. Why is it 5 per pool? Put 4 skills to locked or + and train a 5th. Now you have 5 skills at 100.
We need to see what the changes to stats vs crafting building skills are, and they need to have more effect on the craft / skill IMO. If we just use this resource gathering and bonus system. I expect just about everyone to have high STR/FORT/AGI/DEX followed closely by PER. The other stuff doesnt have enough effect to warrant getting those stats high with the way that crafting and gathering is working.

The gathering stats the way they are I like how they are split up.

Only one change I would do is change fishing instead of using FORT use something else, like INT or PER.
If you swapped INT in Resources with FORT in Fishing that would make more sense to me. Picking up rocks and things like that in resources would IMO be more focused on FORT than INT. While fishing IMO is more relaxing than something that requires FORT.

The rest look great.

I would like to see how you balance out DEX in the crafting line up, and making CHA, SPI, INT play more of a part with other skills. These last 3 stats seem to be way underused and maybe with cooking and animal taming they will play a bigger part.

I also think giving wood resources stat bonuses of some type would help a lot with people wanting to have high SPI and CHA more. Which are likely the most underused stats in game.


Another thing I noticed that is a skill is set to -, then you wont gain stats in that skill when using this. I dont agree with this. I think this will limit people down in how they want to build a toon. Using a system where the resource or the crafted item having a larger bonus with higher stats to promote people to want to have high stats in the skills they use is better than forcing them to have high stats in skills they use.

Another thing I noticed which I think should be changed is that if you are not near the max pool cap, you have NO skill decay at all.

I think there should be a minor decay just to get people used to the idea of it as they train up. Like every 10 points = 1 point of decay somewhere else. I went from around 200 points in crafting pool to 400+ points and zero decay. There should be some decay to other skills along the way.

znaiika
04-14-2012, 06:03 AM
Another thing I noticed that is a skill is set to -, then you wont gain stats in that skill when using this. I dont agree with this. I think this will limit people down in how they want to build a toon. Using a system where the resource or the crafted item having a larger bonus with higher stats to promote people to want to have high stats in the skills they use is better than forcing them to have high stats in skills they use.

Another thing I noticed which I think should be changed is that if you are not near the max pool cap, you have NO skill decay at all.

I think there should be a minor decay just to get people used to the idea of it as they train up. Like every 10 points = 1 point of decay somewhere else. I went from around 200 points in crafting pool to 400+ points and zero decay. There should be some decay to other skills along the way.

The idea is to have people to be able to do everything but not do everything master, right?
If you set to no decay before 90? and then leave the rest from 90 up to decay? then that will not be so boredom to grind, otherwise it will feel too boring to play.
In my opinion there should be a cap after which skills and status start decay if you don't want to play boring game.
Lets say I have 90 in weapon skill then from master resources I could make an ax with +5 bonus points of extra damage and at 100 weapon skill a craftsman could make same weapon with +15 bonus to damage, from 0 to 90 you make 50000 actions, from 90 to 100 you make 100000 actions " for example", then it would be worth for craftsman to have his skill at max and at the same time I could craft my ax at skill 90, if I want to have that ax with +15 bonus? I would going to need to trade with craftsman.

In a short, I want to be a scavenger gatherer, fisherman and hunter and later cook and taming and be able to make light armor and good enough weapon to hunt and be able to build some cover, how am I going to achieve that? with limited status and skills, I should be able to lock those statuses and skills so I wont need to grind those ever again.
I would need strength to carry agility to run, jump, swim, dexterity to keep up running for much longer and so on.

MrDDT
04-14-2012, 07:47 AM
The idea is to have people to be able to do everything but not do everything master, right?
If you set to no decay before 90? and then leave the rest from 90 up to decay? then that will not be so boredom to grind, otherwise it will feel too boring to play.
In my opinion there should be a cap after which skills and status start decay if you don't want to play boring game.
Lets say I have 90 in weapon skill then from master resources I could make an ax with +5 bonus points of extra damage and at 100 weapon skill a craftsman could make same weapon with +15 bonus to damage, from 0 to 90 you make 50000 actions, from 90 to 100 you make 100000 actions " for example", then it would be worth for craftsman to have his skill at max and at the same time I could craft my ax at skill 90, if I want to have that ax with +15 bonus? I would going to need to trade with craftsman.

In a short, I want to be a scavenger gatherer, fisherman and hunter and later cook and taming and be able to make light armor and good enough weapon to hunt and be able to build some cover, how am I going to achieve that? with limited status and skills, I should be able to lock those statuses and skills so I wont need to grind those ever again.
I would need strength to carry agility to run, jump, swim, dexterity to keep up running for much longer and so on.


Im not really sure what you are saying here, but I'm not saying there should be a lot of decay, I'm saying a little just to get people used to the idea of decay. If you are dead set 0 decay until you hit the 400ish points in a crafting pool sure, I don't think you have really reason to stand on that, you can even lower the amount of decay to 1 in 20 points of decay.

Going from 90 = +5 no way 100 skill should yield +15. I believe that is too much, I see no reason for that either. Unless you are going to support it with other systems.

You can scav, gather, hunt and cook at 5 skill. What does skill have to do with ab let do those or not? At 25 skill you can make any weapon in the game. If you want to lock your skills so you dont ever have to grind them again I'm ok with that. Not sure what that has to do with this topic.

Dex has no effect on how long you can run for. Everyone wants STR, AGI and FORT the key is everyone shouldnt have to have them at high levels to play.

IMO With the current way that AGI effects movement speed and attack speed. I see a large part of the server 90% or more having max AGI and I dont think it should be like that, your stats should be a choice and not forced on you because they are too good not too.

tybor
04-14-2012, 10:13 AM
Just wanted to say, that I really like the new skill window and that the scroll position is now fixed during skill increase!
That saves me a lot of mouse movement and I would like to see this for all scrollable windows.

greets,
Tybor

Drevar
04-14-2012, 06:05 PM
Might just be odd behavior because of the 50x multiplier and the skill system not knowing how to handle multiple gains at once, but I can do a couple of actions on a high level skill and there is no movement on the rest of the group, and then alter a lock and it forces an update and the skills move. Needs to be a bit more realtime in the updates.

*edit*
Also just noticed that Terraforming moved into Resources group, not sure how that slipped by me, hehe.

Might it be possible to move Wainright into either Construction or Trade skiils? It is a bit more involved, using lots of parts from other skills, rather than just a base skill.

tybor
04-15-2012, 12:14 AM
Q: Why are there changes to the Skill/Stat system?
A: To prevent players from being master in every skill and increase the value of a maxed skill. This should
also increase player interaction by trading.

This is the answer from myself and my personal opinion about this. I don't like that players are able to do everything on their own.

So here is my opinion about how it should be (only skills related):
- You should take benefit from a skill maxed at 100. Either gathering or crafting should have following quality levels:
0 .. 33 low quality; 33 .. 66 moderate quality; 66 .. 99 high quality; 100 very high quality
- Same for schemes. You should only be able to craft master items when you are at 100.
- 4 locks independant of skill group is wrong (I fully agree to MrDDT suggestion)
- points in a skill group should only allow to master 1-2 skills. Perhaps we need a regroup.
- unused skills should decrease over time, but i think thats no problem as you already specialised in a given direction.

About stats I like the idea from MrDDT, that they should reflect the way you are playing. If you cut down wood all the time, you should gain strength. If you hunt animals you should gain agility. And the stats should help you do the job better.

So stats should:
- STR: increases health, lowers encumbrance
- FORT: helps during combat
- AGI:reduces energy consumption
- DEX: increases success rate
- INT: increases amount of learnable schemes
- PER: increases amount of scavenging, foraging
- CHA: social, no current need in xsyon.
- SPI: increases effect of group actions (i read somewhere about "magic")

As with skills, there should be a max cap and you can't be best at all. As already implemented on test server the increase is much lower than for skills.

So just my humble opinion.

greets,
Tybor

znaiika
04-15-2012, 04:47 AM
Im not really sure what you are saying here, but I'm not saying there should be a lot of decay, I'm saying a little just to get people used to the idea of decay. If you are dead set 0 decay until you hit the 400ish points in a crafting pool sure, I don't think you have really reason to stand on that, you can even lower the amount of decay to 1 in 20 points of decay.

Going from 90 = +5 no way 100 skill should yield +15. I believe that is too much, I see no reason for that either. Unless you are going to support it with other systems.

You can scav, gather, hunt and cook at 5 skill. What does skill have to do with ab let do those or not? At 25 skill you can make any weapon in the game. If you want to lock your skills so you dont ever have to grind them again I'm ok with that. Not sure what that has to do with this topic.

Dex has no effect on how long you can run for. Everyone wants STR, AGI and FORT the key is everyone shouldnt have to have them at high levels to play.

IMO With the current way that AGI effects movement speed and attack speed. I see a large part of the server 90% or more having max AGI and I dont think it should be like that, your stats should be a choice and not forced on you because they are too good not too.

OK, I would need these skills to be able to play my style, Logging, hunting, foraging, scavenging, resources, fishing, hunting, taming, armed, one of the weapon skills (ax/?) hiding, toolcraft, weaponcraft, one of the armor skill " don't tell me basketry is armor skill", basketry, cooking. The rest I am not interesting in.
I would like to have carrying capacity, combat damage, combat speed, energy, health, heal rate, stamina rate, resist to damage, running, jumping, swimming, detection.
About ten of those skills I need to lock from being decayed, the rest of them I don't wont them to decay before 90.
How am I going to satisfy my play style?

Aiden
04-15-2012, 05:43 AM
OK, I would need these skills to be able to play my style, Logging, hunting, foraging, scavenging, resources, fishing, hunting, taming, armed, one of the weapon skills (ax/?) hiding, toolcraft, weaponcraft, one of the armor skill " don't tell me basketry is armor skill", basketry, cooking. The rest I am not interesting in.
I would like to have carrying capacity, combat damage, combat speed, energy, health, heal rate, stamina rate, resist to damage, running, jumping, swimming, detection.
About ten of those skills I need to lock from being decayed, the rest of them I don't wont them to decay before 90.
How am I going to satisfy my play style?

rofl...if you want to DO all of those, then your playstyle is satisfied...if you want to BE THE BEST at all of those, find a single-player game...you'll enjoy it much more...
(I guess you could also find the game-genie code for Xsyon for god-mode...that *might* work for what you're wanting)

tomduril
04-15-2012, 09:46 AM
I agree with MrDDT 4 per group (Plus or lock) seems too many - 2 per group would be something expected from a game ..

Also I would like to see Wraincraft moved to the same group as Architecture - both heavily depend on other skills, and in my view wraincrafting is like building moveble architecture :)

Firebuilding could move to Trade skills - as it is connected to cooking (I hope).

For 1 group max 30% should be set to lock/plus - and a very low decay for leveling up would be great, as MrDDT said to make players aware of decay - it must be really low - so that it does not end up as a additional grind!
Say for 10 grained point / 0.1 point lost - so the decay rate should depend on the total number in that skill group - and dont start with 0 but with a very low decay rate - and if you are a vet and way above the soft cap - then the decay rate would (over time) reduce you to the max level...

The max level should depend on your weekly (or what ever period) action count - so if you are doing mainly crafting - you should be able to reach a higher max, then someone hunting/scavenging/fighting ... so fighters would also have a higher max in the combat group. And when you stop crafting/fighting for a period - the max skill points in that group would fall to a lower level - thus gaining points would decay other skills in the same group..

Example:
Resource group:
Weekly actions: 200+ -> softcap at 400
Weekly actions: 500+ -> softcap at 420
Weekly actions: 1000+ -> softcap at 430
Weekly actions: 1500+ -> softcap at 435 (max).

Same for the other groups - this would mean that "power players" - so people doing alot in the game would have a slightly (~8% in the example) higher softcap - but they would loose that if then switch to a different playstyle or do less in the game.

Not sure if Jordy would like such a system?!?

I believe that this kind of skill system would allow people to really focus on a skill group to have a little advantage (like beeing able to hold 3 skills at 100 instead of 1-2) but they would have to really focus on one skill group, therefore be highly depended on people providing them with the produce of other skill groups (so a high-end master crafter would have to depend on a high-end master recource player).

znaiika
04-15-2012, 10:07 AM
rofl...if you want to DO all of those, then your playstyle is satisfied...if you want to BE THE BEST at all of those, find a single-player game...you'll enjoy it much more...
(I guess you could also find the game-genie code for Xsyon for god-mode...that *might* work for what you're wanting)

No Sir, I'd rather play TERA then, don't like to be so limited.
I am a customer and I shop, I am looking in the game for something that would keep me playing, being limited and grind after reaching my goal? isn't my type of enjoyment.
That is all I can tell you.
Game is not a job and should never be one, game should be fun to spend time not a burden.


I agree with MrDDT 4 per group (Plus or lock) seems too many - 2 per group would be something expected from a game ..


I think (Plus or lock) should depend on group skill.
For example:
Combat group 3 skills (for projectile weapons)
Resource and actions I would leave out. (no decay)
Crafting: 4
I would move woodcraft, masonry and wainwright to architecture and have 3.

MrDDT
04-15-2012, 03:30 PM
OK, I would need these skills to be able to play my style, Logging, hunting, foraging, scavenging, resources, fishing, hunting, taming, armed, one of the weapon skills (ax/?) hiding, toolcraft, weaponcraft, one of the armor skill " don't tell me basketry is armor skill", basketry, cooking. The rest I am not interesting in.
I would like to have carrying capacity, combat damage, combat speed, energy, health, heal rate, stamina rate, resist to damage, running, jumping, swimming, detection.
About ten of those skills I need to lock from being decayed, the rest of them I don't wont them to decay before 90.
How am I going to satisfy my play style?

You picked 6 skills in the same pool (one you named 2 times). Sorry but you wont get 6 skills in the same pool to max level or able to lock them all. Not with a decay system. There is only 7 skills in the resource pool having 85% of a pool at max isnt going to happen.


Not everything is going to fit your playstyle. Some of it needs to be balanced for a game to work.


No Sir, I'd rather play TERA then, don't like to be so limited.
I am a customer and I shop, I am looking in the game for something that would keep me playing, being limited and grind after reaching my goal? isn't my type of enjoyment.
That is all I can tell you.
Game is not a job and should never be one, game should be fun to spend time not a burden.



I think (Plus or lock) should depend on group skill.
For example:
Combat group 3 skills (for projectile weapons)
Resource and actions I would leave out. (no decay)
Crafting: 4
I would move woodcraft, masonry and wainwright to architecture and have 3.


Tera limits you greatly. Try using heavy armor while being a caster.

I've already told you, if this game isnt for you quit. They are not going to change the basics of the game just to fit you. You have to read the game and what the dev wants to make it.

I say no to your # of skills in each pool mostly because you dont explain why.

znaiika
04-15-2012, 03:58 PM
I say no to your # of skills in each pool mostly because you dont explain why.

Basic Science MrDDT.
Think a little outside of box.
I feel MrDDT you making this game unplayable, and I really fear about it's future.
What don't you understand? You're making this game boring because you're forcing people to grind, that is one thing that is not going to be fun.
Good luck with that, you will destroy Xsyon which could of been a good game.

I'll keep an eye on it and see what happen with this patch, then I'll decide what to do.
I don't like boring games.

MrDDT
04-15-2012, 04:03 PM
Basic Science MrDDT.
Think a little outside of box.
I feel MrDDT you making this game unplayable, and I really fear about it's future.
What don't you understand? You're making this game boring because you're forcing people to grind, that is one thing that is not going to be fun.
Good luck with that, you will destroy Xsyon which could of been a good game.

I'll keep an eye on it and see what happen with this patch, then I'll decide what to do.
I don't like boring games.


Not sure how its basic science, and I'm pretty good at science.

I dont get how limiting the # of skills you can have at cap is making the game more of a grind, if anything it would be less of a grind than able to have every skill at cap. Fewer skills to grind.

znaiika
04-15-2012, 04:07 PM
Not sure how its basic science, and I'm pretty good at science.

I dont get how limiting the # of skills you can have at cap is making the game more of a grind, if anything it would be less of a grind than able to have every skill at cap. Fewer skills to grind.

Yaaaahh.
Did you forgot decay part?
By the way TERA don't restrict crafting just armor you wear, but there is a good reason for that, because everything is balanced.
Like archer don't need heavy gear to wear because it's ranged.

MrDDT
04-15-2012, 04:09 PM
Yaaaahh.
Did you forgot decay part?
By the way TERA don't restrict crafting just armor you wear, but there is a good reason for that, because everything is balanced.
Like archer don't need heavy gear to wear because it's ranged.

What about the decay part? Less skills to grind is still less skills to grind. Not sure what you mean by the "decay" part.

Also, why doesnt an archer need heavy gear? In my playstyle I like to tank as an archer, but Tera doesnt give that option. Because you cant do everything.

znaiika
04-15-2012, 04:53 PM
What about the decay part? Less skills to grind is still less skills to grind. Not sure what you mean by the "decay" part.

Also, why doesnt an archer need heavy gear? In my playstyle I like to tank as an archer, but Tera doesnt give that option. Because you cant do everything.

Because most of the time your enemy falls before reaching you, and you have heals, dodge and other skills to use, PVP is a-bit challenge though, it requires a player skills as well.
If you want heavy armor pick melee.
And again you can craft anything you want no restrictions, and gather resources " no skill decay".

About decay: how is it less grind if when using one skill the other one drops to 0 and you have to constantly cycle through to keep skills at where you want them to be " full time grinding ".

MrDDT
04-15-2012, 05:19 PM
Because most of the time your enemy falls before reaching you, and you have heals, dodge and other skills to use, PVP is a-bit challenge though, it requires a player skills as well.
If you want heavy armor pick melee.
And again you can craft anything you want no restrictions, and gather resources " no skill decay".

About decay: how is it less grind if when using one skill the other one drops to 0 and you have to constantly cycle through to keep skills at where you want them to be " full time grinding ".

You dont have to constantly cycle through them, you lock them. If you are trying to have every skill in the game maxed, then yes you will have a problem you wont be allowed to do that in Xsyon. Just like in Terra you cant wear heavy armor on an Archer.

znaiika
04-15-2012, 05:33 PM
You dont have to constantly cycle through them, you lock them. If you are trying to have every skill in the game maxed, then yes you will have a problem you wont be allowed to do that in Xsyon. Just like in Terra you cant wear heavy armor on an Archer.

Not every skill just those that fits my play style.
I already stated how many skills I would like to lock, and the rest at 90 not at master.
No decay below 90 and 10 locked skills.

You know? I used to play FE, I spent way too much money, I logged in the other day walked to my mail and logged off, it's not interesting anymore, just like this game will be if you make it grinding game.

One other thing: How are you going to trade? regional trade? trade event? global trade?
Because when I need that 20 slot cart NOW or a scheme, which ATM I have to wait until trade event, and I don't feel like traveling, plus all my neighbors are too expansive or don't want to trade with outsiders.
Limited and decayed skills would cause more problems then solve.

MrDDT
04-15-2012, 10:58 PM
To summarize, since there is no motive to play Xsyon other than for fun, forcing a player into a role is not going to be beneficial. You're telling me I have to fish another 20 hours just so I can trade for the wood I need to build this useless building? No thanks, I just won't build it.


Few things here that I think you fail to understand.

1) You dont have to fish to trade for the wood. You can get the wood yourself in the current system and this new system.
2) The key to this is that people do things they WANT to do, or that they like to do or have fun doing. If you like fishing, and need wood then fish more to get the wood you need. If you dont want to get it yourself. Else you can fish and then get the wood.
3) Economy is based around demand and supply. Right now there is no demand due to the fact no one needs things. Supply is also very high because everyone can get anything. The change to this system is that few people will be able to get the best things of any type, while the demand for them will increase because the bonuses are greater and being fixed.


You talk about me and my accounts yet it will not matter what system you choose extra accounts will always be a bonus. Besides, I wouldnt need extra accounts to do this new system as I have a whole tribe able to do whatever is wanted. Which I believe is the point of the new system. Allowing people to feel they are wanted or needed. Current system is I dont need more than 1 account for crafting as I have 100 in everything.

Can you explain to me how in the current system you could specialize and trade?

You also talk about players able to do something but not master it they will. I disagree. It depends on the bonus skill has on the effect. If you have 5 skill and someone else has 100 skill making a weapon, and that weapon does 5x more damage than your 5skill weapon does. People will trade for the 100 skill weapon, assuming there is a need for higher damage weapons.


Why did you not just have players select the tradeskills they wish to use and bar them from the rest? If you wish to take on a new tradeskill, you must delete the old one. You're wasting so much time coding this convoluted system to accomplish something very simple.

This has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever seen. Remaking a toon just because you want to craft something else? Crazy. The code didnt take him long to change to a +/-/lock system. Its working great.

Can you please explain some of the errors? I didnt see you post any just that they wouldnt see them. Yet I didnt see any listed.

thunXa
04-16-2012, 01:26 AM
My opinion:

Nice work on the locks!

Might put the limit at 2 or 3, i think 4 is to much.

E:
And please decrease agility buff
Everyone wants to be faster in a game that has miles of footage and just run out of situations, so from what i saw i think the STR/FORT/AGIL stats for combat goes into AGIL for most,

Balance comes with specialization.

But im not with you guys anyway..
I like the game in both versions whatever it will be :)

Ill stick with the most people and thats likely specializations what they want. So if thats needed for more players, im fine.

znaiika
04-16-2012, 05:27 AM
3) Economy is based around demand and supply. Right now there is no demand due to the fact no one needs things.

Who are you going to trade with? animals?
You fail to understand there is no trade if there is no people to trade with.
How many people do play Xsyon? and how many did? You've got to question your self why people don't play? or not any more?
If you have hundreds of people playing and new players coming in constantly? you will never run out of trade even with the system we have.
First you have to interest people to play without forcing them to do one or the other thing and not boring them to death.
Then you need global trade and delivery system.

You have so many accounts and all of those characters can do same thing, so you decided to redistribute skills so they would fit your play style and don't care about other people who can't buy more accounts.

MrDDT
04-16-2012, 07:26 AM
I said delete that skill, not remake that toon.


If the system doesn't keep proper record of your actions, how are you going to know? Are you going to watch each of your skills ensure that the least used one is being preferentially decayed?

How do you know if the decay rate is working as intended, or if the system bugs out and starts decaying at 5x normal speed.

You mentioned earlier in your post that bonuses would be fixed. The only reason you know they're broken is because you've been playing this game religiously since launch -- a lot of people playing Xsyon don't even know that these bonuses are broken. You know what? Because the details of the system aren't revealed to the player.

The system is being tested at 25x speed -- there's a damn good chance that it's not going to behave the same at 1x.

I cut off the other 1/2 of the post because its not really the topic for it.

How would you know if the least used is being decayed? Easy you test it. You do 100 actions of skill A, you do 200 actions of skill B, you do 300 actions of skill C, etc. See which one drops.

Its easy to see if its decaying at 5x or not, its a 1 to 1 loss. So if you lose 5 to 1. You simply report the issue.

Not sure about you but its very easy to see some of the bonuses that are broken. Just look at bonus like +Damage. When it adds NO damage. I agree some are harder to see than others, and I would like to see a little more info about them. But they have made great changes to the stats info window to help this, things like adding .1 changes instead of just full points, also having 2 stat lists, one for baseline and one for buffed.
Any game is going to have systems that some players dont understand, even WOW has this.

The current rate on the test server is 50x btw. I'm sure they wont behave the same its used for testing. The more they can test the better chance it wont be messed up.

So far I havent seen to many problems with them on test. I did list them. I love the new changes.

Have you tested the changes on test yet? I didnt see any info you reporting with bugs or them not working correctly.


You have so many accounts and all of those characters can do same thing, so you decided to redistribute skills so they would fit your play style and don't care about other people who can't buy more accounts.


100% my plan. I love losing 1000s of hours on a toon just because I have a few accounts not being used fully. You got me. So instead of having DDT with 100 in every skill he is now going to have over 1000 points decay away, just so I can retrain them on other accounts. That was 100% my plan, cant get anything past you.

MrDDT
04-16-2012, 09:04 AM
Lol, thats fine that you don't want to respond to it, but it most certainly is the topic for it.


Yeah no way bugs could affect that process... wow. That system is also ridiculous -- a wainright might do 5 crafts a week combining carts, and be very productive, while someone grinding toolcrafting can expect to do 1000s of actions in a week.

The point I'm making is that you will ALWAYS need to be watching your skills, because there is a damn good chance that a bug in this system will be missed during testing, like most of the code in Xsyon. In order for people to do that in this new system, they need to keep a spreadsheet of all the actions they've performed in the past week -- ridiculous.



Those all sound like good changes to give transparency to the game. So to follow that example, there should be a window that shows you the action record for decay, and which one is going to be preferentially decaying.


If it's not going to behave the same, then the testing in this different behavior is largely useless.


Lol yeah? They make you feel wanted?


Dude I entered this thread by saying that I tried to log in to test these changes, but you require an active sub to go on the test server. So you guys go test these changes with like 10 people; find out if lag issues and desync are fixed -- lol.


Good point about wainwright, which has already been brought up as it should be moved out of the crafting pool, and into "trade" or "construction".
If you dont want to keep track then dont. I dont expect everyone to do it. Just like most MMO's they have bugs and not everyone reports them or tracks them, or worries about them.

About the decay thing, I dont really think its needed. As if you lose .1 in a skill simply just go work on it for a little bit. Its not very hard.

Just because its not 100% the same its 99% the same doesnt mean you cant test the other 99%. No matter what you do, the test server will not be 100% like live server. So your point is either not to test at all, or test with a server that's not 100% the same.
Which do you think is better?

The active sub thing is because it uses a database that's a few days old from the live server. Which sounds like you just reupped your sub, after canceling it.
About the testing with 10 people, pretty sure we were saying it seems like its working better than live. When we did it before on test with 10 people it would have lag and desync. Which is in the other thread.


I think the system is good, and gives players more of a control while still having skill caps and pools.

Drevar
04-16-2012, 09:26 PM
On the number of skill locks per group, I think it is fine at 4. Remember there will be more skills added. Right now it may seem that it is too "easy" to learn a lot of skills, but it will balance out in the future without having to rock the boat by changing the number of locks later.

MrDDT
04-16-2012, 10:32 PM
On the number of skill locks per group, I think it is fine at 4. Remember there will be more skills added. Right now it may seem that it is too "easy" to learn a lot of skills, but it will balance out in the future without having to rock the boat by changing the number of locks later.


4 = 5 just FYI. Meaning you can have 5 skills at 100 with 4 locks.

This means you can have 50% of the crafting skills at 100. Plus if you drop the 2 that dont even matter (firebuilding/masonry) you are only down to 65% of all the crafting skills at 100 skill. (5 of the 8). Dont you think that's a bit much?

At the very least it should be 3 locks which would be up to 4 skills. I still think 2 locks with total of 3 skills per pool at 100 is better.

znaiika
04-17-2012, 07:30 AM
4 = 5 just FYI. Meaning you can have 5 skills at 100 with 4 locks.

This means you can have 50% of the crafting skills at 100. Plus if you drop the 2 that dont even matter (firebuilding/masonry) you are only down to 65% of all the crafting skills at 100 skill. (5 of the 8). Dont you think that's a bit much?

At the very least it should be 3 locks which would be up to 4 skills. I still think 2 locks with total of 3 skills per pool at 100 is better.

What about resource and action skills?
Just to make a hammer, you need toolcraft, resource, forestry, logging, woodcraft, scavenging, foraging, basketry, weaponcraft, tailoring, leathercraf, hunting, armed, one of the weapons skill, not to mention need to eat, fishing, cooking, and more "In case I missed some".
Do you think I or anyone else, will be mastering this skill?
People will find middle ground and will not trade at all, maybe just schemes and low level carts, leaving you at what we have only no one will master anything.
Who would want to trade low level mats if they need master quality to make master quality item.
You will only succeed on eliminating master craft and add more grind to Xsyon that is all.

MrDDT
04-17-2012, 07:56 AM
What about resource and action skills?
Just to make a hammer, you need toolcraft, resource, forestry, logging, woodcraft, scavenging, foraging, basketry, weaponcraft, tailoring, leathercraf, hunting, armed, one of the weapons skill, not to mention need to eat, fishing, cooking, and more "In case I missed some".
Do you think I or anyone else, will be mastering this skill?
People will find middle ground and will not trade at all, maybe just schemes and low level carts, leaving you at what we have only no one will master anything.
Who would want to trade low level mats if they need master quality to make master quality item.
You will only succeed on eliminating master craft and add more grind to Xsyon that is all.


To make a hammer you only need to train no skills. Its under toolcrafting and you can make it at 5 skill (the base starting skill level), and you can gather all the mats at 5 skill.

If you wanted to make a master hammer at the best skill, why should you make 12 other skills at master? Which is the point of limiting pools to a max # of skill you can have.
Having 3 skills at 100 per pool is still over 12 skills at 100. I think that's more than enough skills per toon to have at max level.

Where the problem comes in is where someone wants to NOT have 100 in a skill, so they lock it at 70, which is effectively gimping themselves. Because you only get 3 locks so why not just have it keep going past 70 there is no reason not too.


I understand that people want to play solo, but solo players understand or will have to understand they will NOT be a master in every skill in the game.

znaiika
04-17-2012, 09:04 AM
If you wanted to make a master hammer at the best skill, why should you make 12 other skills at master?

To make master hammer you need master mats.
Do your calculations.
All those skills needed to make all tools master.
Do you think people will specialize in just one skill?
What about tools and mats they need to make their items at master? Who is going to provide them?

MrDDT
04-17-2012, 02:51 PM
To make master hammer you need master mats.
Do your calculations.
All those skills needed to make all tools master.
Do you think people will specialize in just one skill?
What about tools and mats they need to make their items at master? Who is going to provide them?


I'm sure all those skills are not needed to make master tools. Even if you wanted to gather ALL the resources yourself.

Do I think people will specialize in just one skill? No I think they will specialize in 3 skills per pool if that is the limit.

Who is going to provide items to make stuff at master? (I dont know why you are using master because master is very easy to make)
You trade. If you are say a toolcrafter, then you will trade with someone who needs good tools for whatever they have that you need, and they are good at. Say you are a toolcrafter and need weapons. Well a weaponcrafter needs tools, so you guys make a trade. You make him the best tools, he makes you the best weapons. TRADE. Presto.

MrDDT
04-17-2012, 03:31 PM
Why would a toolcrafter need weapons?

Maybe toolcrafting isnt the only thing they like to do.
It was 1 example. You can use woodcrafter, or even leatherworker. Example still holds.

You make good tools, I make good wood. You want the wood, I want the tools.
You make good tools, I make good leather armor. You want the leather armor I want the tools.

See how the trade works?

znaiika
04-17-2012, 04:27 PM
Maybe toolcrafting isnt the only thing they like to do.
It was 1 example. You can use woodcrafter, or even leatherworker. Example still holds.

1: You make good tools, I make good wood. You want the wood, I want the tools.
You make good tools, I make good leather armor. You want the leather armor I want the tools.

2: See how the trade works?

1: For example: Wood working needs, logging, woodcraft, an ax, a planner, a saw, a crafting knife, food and water, place to work under the roof, all needs to be master quality, just to make master quality tools, the question is, where do you get master quality mats in the first place to make first master quality tools? to make master quality weapons, in this case an ax, trade with devs maybe?

2: I have no clue sir, no sense.

MrDDT
04-17-2012, 04:39 PM
1: For example: Wood working needs, logging, woodcraft, an ax, a planner, a saw, a crafting knife, food and water, place to work under the roof, all needs to be master quality, just to make master quality tools, the question is, where do you get master quality mats in the first place to make first master quality tools? to make master quality weapons, in this case an ax, trade with devs maybe?

2: I have no clue sir, no sense.


Have you been playing this game?

Wood working doesnt need all that for master quality. Woodworking needs tools master quality, logging skill, and forestry skill. Woodworking and toolcrafting are crafts, forestery and logging are resource gathering skills. 2 different pools. Which means 1 person can easy do this. Does a logger use an axe? Yep, however, it doesnt effect the wood. (Yet at least).

Where do you get these things to make the master quality tools? You work your way up, or trade for them. I'm not sure how this has anything to do with what we are talking about skill pool caps.

I agree you have no clue.

znaiika
04-17-2012, 04:46 PM
Does a logger use an axe? Yep, however, it doesnt effect the wood. (Yet at least).


Then why you get high quality log and then next one is moderate quality once an ax gets worn? Maybe you did not noticed that? or maybe it is a bug? and an ax I'm using have moderate/high quality, maybe that's why?

MrDDT
04-17-2012, 06:28 PM
Then why you get high quality log and then next one is moderate quality once an ax gets worn? Maybe you did not noticed that? or maybe it is a bug? and an ax I'm using have moderate/high quality, maybe that's why?


You should do more testing, try on the test server you can see it. It works like most things in game, when you gather you get random resource QL based on your skill.
Pick up rocks, even at 100 skill you can get very high or master QL. Its not set every time and there is no axe or tool used.

Terraforming uses a tool and you get supreme every time. Its not working right.
Foraging uses NO tools and you get supreme every time. Its not working right.

Scavenging, logging, resources, forestry, gathering grass (which uses foraging), skinning. All work like this. You get random QL based on your skill.
I have 100 logging, I can use a supreme axe (100) QL and get lower QL than using a poor QL axe. Explain that using your thoughts that QL matter.

Shill
04-17-2012, 07:23 PM
Just got off test and noticed immediately that you get a "You can't lock more than 2 skills in this group now". Two locked or plus for each group across the board. PERFECT!!!!! :):)

Whorlok
04-17-2012, 09:17 PM
Just got off test and noticed immediately that you get a "You can't lock more than 2 skills in this group now". Two locked or plus for each group across the board. PERFECT!!!!! :):)

I think also ist so ok

znaiika
04-18-2012, 05:34 AM
Skills

Just tell me, how are you going to loose your skills which are all at 100? Only you will have all skills at 100 because you already reached them all at 100, and there is no way of removing skill points, you can easily keep them at 100 all the time.
And new players won't be able to ever reach at where you are, leaving you the only one person with all skills at 100.

MrDDT
04-18-2012, 05:57 AM
Just tell me, how are you going to loose your skills which are all at 100? Only you will have all skills at 100 because you already reached them all at 100, and there is no way of removing skill points, you can easily keep them at 100 all the time.
And new players won't be able to ever reach at where you are, leaving you the only one person with all skills at 100.

New skills are added and changed around.

Plus I dont have every skill at 100. I'm missing some like firebuilding.

znaiika
04-18-2012, 06:26 AM
New skills are added and changed around.

Plus I dont have every skill at 100. I'm missing some like firebuilding.

I think maximum overall points should be available for everyone so when they implement this new system you should be choosing which skills are you going to keep and which are you going to let go, that will be fair.
And I am very sure you've got your firebuilding and those other skills you can't grind-on covered, by spending XP points.