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View Full Version : Final Feedback Request: Skills, Stats, Quests



Xsyon
04-30-2012, 11:28 PM
I would like some final feedback on the coming Skills / Stats / Quest patch.

In particular:

1) Stability. How do ping rates, loading times, lag and desynch compare with the main server? Are you getting any or frequent disconnects?

2) Movement speed. Base movement speed has been increased. Movement speed dependant now on the following factors:
- Agility
- Running or swimming skill
- Current energy level
- Surface (movement speed on roads has been increased)
- Encumbrance

Do any of these factors seem to have too much or too little effect?

3) Skills set to minus. I have received conflicting feedback on whether stats should be gained on skills that are set to minus. This is an easy switch to make and can be set either way.

I am tending towards allowing stat gain on skills set to minus as this allows players more flexibility to build stats independent of their high level or gaining skills.

Currently on the test server skills set to minus are set to not gain stats. This is change from the previous build (and reversion to the earlier setting).

4) Are there any critical issues that would prevent this patch from going live?

Note: The UI art on the Test Server is not correct. Please ignore this. The correct artwork can't be patched out until this build is made fully live, as the artwork would affect the current main server UI.

Notice: The Test Server is set for In House Testing only for a few hours while we work on a few things. I will post again when it's open for Public Testing, and it will be noted on the launcher.

Xsyon
04-30-2012, 11:31 PM
Here is a full list of what is in this coming patch:

IOCP
IOCP system for improved connectivity and command processing.

Combat
Per player position thread to reduce combat lag
Creatures can attack in water (animations not implemented)

Skills
Skill tracker working
Resource skills revised for balanced use of all stats
Terraforming moved to the resources group
Wainwright moved to the construction skill group
Schemes can be gained beyond skill 100
Unlearn based on current skill level (you can unlearn auto learn recipes if your skill has dropped)
Schemes can be gained on level up
Working skill soft cap
Skill balancing reduction after gains beyond soft cap
Action skills not soft capped
Construction not soft capped
Balanced decay on least used 4 skills
Skill decay chooses skills set to minus first (as if they had 0 recent uses)
Skill locking system
- Normal: skill can increase or decrease
- Minus: skill locked for decay only. Stats will not gain when using this
- Locked: Can’t change. Stats will gain when using this skill
- Plus: Can increase only. Stats will gain when using this skill
- 2 skills can be locked
Skill recent use count displayed as a tooltip on skill locks

Stats
Stats can be adjusted through a stat adjustment panel up to four times. This may be reduced to less times for now and we will increase the count every time we make significant changes such as adding more skills.
Agility bonuses affect movement speed.
Current energy affects movement speed.
Surface effect on movement speed adjusted.
Running and swimming skills affect movement speed.
Agility affects combat speed (including bonuses)
Base movement increased
Max movement increased
Strength including bonuses affects encumbrance
Encumbrance minimum increased
Encumbrance maximum increased
Stat gain on all skill actions regardless of setting
Minor fixes to the stat panel display
Balanced decay on least used 4 stats
Stats above normal display as green in stat panel

Health
Health based on stats and skills
Health (hit points) shows as a value on hover

Experience
Gained per action not skill gain
Stats can be gained through the level up panel for skills that are increased using experience points as ifthose skill were actually used

Quests
Quest expiration
Expired quest removes quest from questor
Quest limit
Quest quality
Craft and hunt quest require you to craft and hunt the delivered goal items
View and drop quests from Tribe Quest Panel
Improved quest panels
Quests show tribe and creator
Quests give experience based on
- Type of quest
- Difficulty of item
- Amount of item
- Quality of item
- Distance between tribes
Experience for both questor and creator

Scroll bar
Fixed scroll bars for all panels
Town member scroll bar
Town rank scroll bar

Interface
New interface panel art implemented (in progress)
Walk mode default key bindset to G
Chat reply default key bindset to R

Chat
Pressing R allows automatic reply to last whisper
Whispers show more clear who you are whispering to receiving a whisper from

Items
Hunted items give bonus based on power of creature killed
Materialitems display possible bonus in tooltip
Mergingstacks should properly balance bonus power (for hunted items). Quality and duration should also balance as usual
Splitting and merging stacks should properly balance bonus power, quality and duration.

Tribe
Confirm menu on abandoning tribe.
Players must collect quests before abandoning a tribe.
Quest for a deleted or removed character are deleted.

World
Scrap surface requires clearing before paving or terraforming.

Bugs
Long text message rendering fixed
Npc removal crash fixed
Tribe names can accept spaces.

Xsyon
04-30-2012, 11:40 PM
Here is a list of skill and stat associations (including skills planned for the near future)

Resources
Fishing: Dexterity Intelligence
Hunting: Agility Dexterity
Logging: Strength Agility
Terraforming: Fortitude Strength
Scavenging: Charm Perception
Forestry: Spirit Charm
Foraging: Intelligence Spirit
Resources: Perception Fortitude

Combat
Unarmed: Strength Agility
Armed: Strength Dexterity
Parry: Agility Intelligence
Dual Wield: Agility Perception (Future Skill)
Block: Fortitude Strength (Future Skill)
Resist: Fortitude Spirit (Future Skill)
Throw: Dexterity Charm (Future Skill)
Archery: Dexterity Perception (Future Skill)

Axes: Strength Fortitude
Blades: Agility Dexterity
Clubs: Strength Fortitude
Picks: Fortitude Strength
Poles: Fortitude Strength (Future Skill)
Staves: Agility Spirit (Future Skill)
Bows: Dexterity Perception (Future Skill)
Spears: Dexterity Charm (Future Skill)

Crafts
Basketry: Agility Spirit
Bonecraft: Fortitude Charm
Leathercraft: Strength Perception
Tailoring: Dexterity Agility
ToolCraft: Intelligence Fortitude
Weaponcraft: Perception Strength
FireBuilding: Spirit Intelligence
TalismanCraft: Charm Dexterity (Future Skill)
Masonry: Fortitude Charm
Woodcraft: Agility Spirit
Scrapcraft: Perception Strength (Future Skill)
Bowcraft: Dexterity Intelligence (Future Skill)

Construction
Architecture Intelligence Spirit
Wainwright Dexterity Strength

Drevar
05-01-2012, 12:43 AM
1. Ping rates seem the same as on live. The only issue in this category I had was that the UI while crafting seemed much less responsive. It may have just been a fluke or something to due with Test server resources (I was the only one on, though). Basically I would right click materials to add to the crafting UI and sometimes it just would not take. I would have to click again and then wait for it to show up in the craft UI. On live I can go quite quickly, and only if the last crafting result is slightly lagged will the next click not register. The inventory UI is totally hosed, hehe, but that is due to the missing new artwork..I hope..LOL

2. The relevant stats for this are mediocre, so I didn't notice a big change in speed, etc.

3. Gaining stats while - is fine, but either way will work for me. Just go with what you want :)

4. Nothing critical but there are a few issue I hope will be addressed:

Firstly the notes need to be clarified a bit on a couple of points.
"Skill decay chooses skills set to minus first (as if they had 0 recent uses)" This is not entirely true..it simply forces the effective recent uses to 0 so that it becomes ONE of the least used skills that CAN decay/balance. It does not force decay on that one skill over all others. I really think it should bias that skill to decay first, over and to the exclusion of all others until there are no more points left in that skill.
"-Minus: skill locked for decay only. Stats will not gain when using this" and "Stat gain on all skill actions regardless of setting" sort of conflict...
There is no mention of the stat reallocation feature. (Or is this purely for testing? Seems odd that it would have limited uses if only for testing :) )

My biggest issue, however, is with the changes in stats and skill not updating as they happen and rounding causing wrong skill amount to display...still. This is an old issue and the more possible changes that can occur the worse this "bug" affects us. Stats do not update except on full integer changes or on skill gain. If you are in the upper 90s you can gain/lose several stats and not see it until you gain the next .1 skill or manage to roll the stat over to a whole number. This has made tracking the changes a bit hard on test. The other part is that the balancing appears to reduce skills in increments less than the .1 displayed, resulting in a displayed value that is deceptive. I can gain a couple of .1 in a skill and the others remain at 100, but if I toggle a lock it suddenly updates the list and several skills then fall to 99.9. The uses also does not update until a refresh is forced via skill gain or toggling the locks.

I am not sure what caused this, but using the skill up panel was acting a bit wierd. With wainwright at 47.1 I would spend 5 SP (1 skill point) and click level up. I would get the system message for raising the skill *twice* and my total would then be something like 49.4. I could repeat this over and and over, each bump of wainwright by 1 point would result in 2 points gained, effectively saving me many many points. On the other hand, raising weapon crafting 1 point from 83.5 resulted in a flat 84.0. I haven't checked on live recently, but I know before it would simply add 1 point and carry whatever decimal existed over and then sometimes crafting once after using the skill up would result in an immediate gain. Not sure if this is simply applying that gain instantly now rather than saving it up and waiting for a force skill gain check through use.

tomduril
05-01-2012, 01:02 AM
Bug:
-) The quest panel in tribes (own and others) cause the client to stop receiving data from the server (probably only if quests are available).

-) graphics in the baskets are still broken (basket grid does not match position of items), pouches are really off ...

Response time / Lag seems ok for me.

Drevar:

If I would speculated (which I love doing btw) I would say that spending points in a skill is like doing "20" actions in that skill - so you would get (depending on INT and other things) quite random results with raising the skill. So its no longer "raise skill by 1 point" but rather like "simulate to do about 20 skill uses" when you apply XP points to a skill. Xsyon should probably be able to elaborate on that :)

Skills and Stats: this sort of really messes everything up ! I created my toon to be a good basketry (at that point needing PERC, INT and DEX) - so my STR/AGI/FORT are normal where my CHARM has dropped to 0.4 (from 10) - I did a lot of foraging/basketry ... so now with the changes every skill I aimed for, will be in direct conflict with the Stats I have gained/lost the last 10 months.

Will there be any chance for the veteran players to adjust to the new situation (like the interface on test ... be able to redistribute the stats - probably only once) ? That would really be nice!

Drevar
05-01-2012, 01:46 AM
Guessing that is exactly what it is for, otherwise why would it have a limited number of uses (4) if it was soley for testing?

It is kind of broken at the moment, though. When you choose to reset your stats it drops the decimal values you had and makes them all XX.0 Not fun if you have say 99.9 and reset and end up with 99.0

thunXa
05-01-2012, 01:51 AM
IOCP
IOCP system for improved connectivity and command processing.

+
My ping went from 125-140 to 105-120 and it doesnt seem to be hopping much


Combat
Creatures can attack in water (animations not implemented)

Good job!
Mule Deers look a bit funny for now! :)

http://s1.directupload.net/images/120501/3uage4ll.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)

http://s1.directupload.net/images/120501/by7zltpu.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)




Skills

Working skill soft cap
Balanced decay on least used 4 skills
Skill decay chooses skills set to minus first (as if they had 0 recent uses)
Skill locking system
- Normal: skill can increase or decrease
- Minus: skill locked for decay only. Stats will not gain when using this
- Locked: Can’t change. Stats will gain when using this skill
- Plus: Can increase only. Stats will gain when using this skill
- 2 skills can be locked
Skill recent use count displayed as a tooltip on skill locks

Feels like that the amount of decay from different skills by using a very high skill (~99) is less than using a middle skill (~65).. Why? Isee the point on still getting everything up to 100, but i think its to less decay for the least used skills of using very high skills

Stats

Agility bonuses affect movement speed.
Current energy affects movement speed.
Surface effect on movement speed adjusted.
Running and swimming skills affect movement speed.
Agility affects combat speed (including bonuses)
Base movement increased
Max movement increased

+
Movement feels alot better now, more fluent compared to the old one!
Also seems to be better balanced. Jumping is not anymore a need to be faster, for me at least

Edit:
-
Agility seems to be to much of a factor to combat speed


Strength including bonuses affects encumbrance
Encumbrance minimum increased
Encumbrance maximum increased

+
I like this change, specialy for hunting.. Now we are not overload of encumbrance after looting a single animal



Experience
Added myself:
4 times Stats point repick

I think 4 times is to much, 2 could be enough.
But i do agree as there are alot changes

--
All stats will drop the decimals to .0 if i do a repick, even if i changed only 1 stat
--

If you remove stats from beyond 90, lets say 95 i cant add them to other stats beyond 90. So stats repick only works for stats below 90?

I mean if there is a chance to repick you should give the chance to repick for all those changes on crafting skills.

Example:
Now a scav specialized guy can swap his stats from perception (100.0) to charm (0.8)

So he can only put that stat up to 90 and all his work beeing the scav guy starts from the begin?

Thats the bad point i still see with this





But so far very nice work!

tybor
05-01-2012, 03:13 AM
1. Ping rates seem the same as on live. The only issue in this category I had was that the UI while crafting seemed much less responsive. It may have just been a fluke or something to due with Test server resources (I was the only one on, though). Basically I would right click materials to add to the crafting UI and sometimes it just would not take. I would have to click again and then wait for it to show up in the craft UI. On live I can go quite quickly, and only if the last crafting result is slightly lagged will the next click not register. The inventory UI is totally hosed, hehe, but that is due to the missing new artwork..I hope..LOL
My ping goes from ~143ms down to ~126ms. So a decrease of about 16ms.
What Drevar describes can be observed on main server, too! It happens right after your skill increased (also a sound is played), then the first right click is ignored on next crafting.

I made a chart of the new Skill & Stats relation (see attached image).

greetz,
Tybor

Added after 1 10 minutes:

Hi,

During skill lock testing, it happened that I missed some skills in my skill window! I found out, that these skill are below 5.0 and therefor not showed in skill window.
They were shown in skill point distribution window as 4 (see attached screenshots).

So I increased them by adding some skill points to them and they were visible again after relogging.

Now I tried again to lower a skill (Hunting) and although in skill window it was limited with 5.0, the skill distribution window showed 4!!

So it is possible to decrease a skill below 5.0 (although I think only happens on test because of increase usage rate).

greetz,
Tybor

MrDDT
05-01-2012, 07:57 AM
So far looks great.
There are some minor bugs, but nothing major.

I love the new base movement speed increase. Having 10AGI is sorta an option now.

Thanks for the update on crafting skills, and future skills that will help a lot in planning.

Ping is better, about 50ms now steady vs 65ms with some changes.

Attack speed with AGI is now much better before (on test) it was much to strong now its been balanced its good.

STR effect on weight very nice, much better overall for all players.

Fort has a good effect now, I think it can use a little buff.

Hard to see live stat/skill changes rates will be like, so might have to balance that out on live on the speed of stats/skills.

Stat soft cap is good (almost a dead stop at 125 right?)

I think that combat stats are still a little to effective for crafters. (STR/FORT/AGI) They are going to be a large choice in most crafting while they should be less of a choice. PER/CHA/SPI/INT/DEX should have more of an effect in crafting. While the combat stats would have more effects in combat area.
What I would do is change it around so that mostly primary stats in crafting are from the crafting stats (PER/CHA/SPI/INT/DEX) and the secondary are combat stats (STR/FORT/AGI) for crafting. Then in the combat area, it should be the other way. Primary stats for combat weapons should be STR/FORT/AGI mostly, and secondary should be crafting stats (PER/CHA/SPI/INT/DEX).
Resources should be good mix of the 2 types. Neither focused on combat or crafting.

One thing I noticed is that its hard to see which stats go DOWN. You can see when they go up a full point. But cant see which were lowered.

Combat lag is a lot better, movement speed seems good.


Like Drevar says, I dont see the recent uses updating correctly. Also hard to see which stats are being changed with what skills when you use them as they dont update correctly until you remove an item and stuff.


tomduril, (http://www.xsyon.com/forum/member.php/8084-tomduril)
You get 4 times you can fully change your stats around. There is a + near your skills + that allows you to do this. I believe this is what you were asking for.

Xsyon
05-01-2012, 08:19 AM
Notice: The Test Server is set for In House Testing only for a few hours while we work on a few things. I will post again when it's open for Public Testing, and it will be noted on the launcher.

catnips
05-01-2012, 09:27 AM
I personly would like to see skills set to minus to still be able to gain stats from doing them.
Here is my reasoning for this.
I have played other games that tried to lock stats to skills. The results where, fighter types could easly beat crafter gather type chars, So rolling a crafter gather type char was just the same as saying "Iam gonna be a victim for the rest of my game life."
Resulting in cookie cutter roll of chars. I mean no one wants to be a victim.
Now the DEVs tried hard to defend thier choice in this by saying things like, well the fighters can defend the crafters. Not sure about anyone else but Iam not paying 15 bucks a month to stand around and watch someone else cut trees, boring enough to do it, much less stand there and watch someone else do it.

Think I would like to see str and fort maxed would result in a set amount of HP ( for all players ) Its very dishearting for new players to find out old players can have 20 times the best you can ever hope have. And snowballs chance in heck of losing those hp. I mean lets equal out the field here, Its PVP and all should have the same fair chance.
Time invested should reap rewards, being able to make better items ect., but all should have the opertunity to be able to reach the same level of items stats and skills, if they chose to do so.

Xsyon
05-01-2012, 09:58 AM
Bug:
so now with the changes every skill I aimed for, will be in direct conflict with the Stats I have gained/lost the last 10 months.

Will there be any chance for the veteran players to adjust to the new situation (like the interface on test ... be able to redistribute the stats - probably only once) ? That would really be nice!

Just to clarify: Yes, you will be able to adjust your stats. Right now it's set to 4 adjustments, but I might lower this to 2, but increase this adjustment count every time there are substantial changes to skills or stats.

Xsyon
05-01-2012, 08:27 PM
The Test Server is resarting now (8:30 PM PST) with a few fixes and changes:

- Base movement speed increased with the affect of agility further revised. Please provide feedback on this. I personally think these speeds are too high now, but you all are more used to playing. This can be further revised after the public patch, so it's not holding anything up.

- Skills update on every use count now.

- Skill gain set back to normal (instead of 50 times gain)

- Problems with the Level Up and Stat Adjustment panel fixed. Decimals display now in both panels.

Barring any last minute critical issues, this patch is finally ready for the public and we will patch out today. If you test and find any critical issues at all, please report here, or alert one of our guides.

Thanks!

Drevar
05-02-2012, 01:30 AM
Running does feel a bit too fast now. There needs to be some room for improvement with mounts, and there won't be much left over if we can already go as fast as we can now.
Best to change it now before we get "spoiled" and then have to swallow some huge nerf to run speed when mounts become available in order to give them a discernable advantage. Wouldn't that be lovely?

unclean666
05-02-2012, 01:31 AM
The only real problem I see with the changes is not the changes itself but now that we have to pick if we want to be the best we can be in that craft(and im fine with that been waiting a year for this change) then why would anyone who wants to craft armor ever pick bonecraft? To be the best Bonecrafter I can be I would be wearing a LEATHER suit because the the bone fort bonus sucks.The only thing bone has going for it is slight def over leather and str bonus and even that can be higher in a leather suit.Most suits in bone are human and they have no stats so there useless so we got str and fort and both are better in leather.Leather has str,fort,dex and agil hum wonder what armor people will pick it just means we will have twice as many leather crafter because no one is going to pick bonecraft when theres only one suit that matters.Tailoring is fine its got charm,spirt,intel and i think agil.

2 small fixing...i think could be open slot armor sets that can use any bone like leathers got and give human bones a bonus like perception although agil fits better with a combat suit but perception has no home for a bonus yet.

I would really like to pick bonecraft but in worried to make it a main craft but I dont want to pick it and its 6 months till you make it more usefull and not look silly next to leather.Or just give it the kind of def it should have over the other IMO crafting suits leather and tailoring.

MrDDT
05-02-2012, 06:40 AM
Running looks fine I can see that its a bit faster for lower end AGI than it was before, top end still seems to be fast, too fast? Maybe not really sure looks like people might choose lower AGI now because movement isnt as big of a problem.

Stat gain seems low. Cutting 200 trees at 100 skill gave me 0 gains in stats.
Cutting 187 trees at 25 skill gave me .1 stats. (Gained 3 points of logging, which seems fine)

Bug:At 100 skill you dont see the "uses" update correctly.

Animals (higher end) still seem to easy to me. Killed a bear with a VHQ pick, and naked over 1/2 my life left and it was an older bear (Gave 1.41 stats on the flat bone) which if I had to guess was about an 8 or 9 year old bear.


I agree with what Unclean666 is saying, however, not sure this is the right topic for it. I agree that balancing leather/tailoring/bonecrafting needs to be done.

Creator
05-02-2012, 06:59 AM
nvm cause test is now unavailable... derp :)

Qwerty
05-02-2012, 07:46 AM
I can see the wealthy players just having more alts to do more skills which is a form of pay for power. I'm okay in principle to skill selection as it should encourage more trade with the majority. We can boycott the rich players :) I have had a little bit of time on the test server, but don't know the total ins and outs though. I have noticed though on the original post that new future trades will be introduced and I'm more worried how they would be introduced when one has already mastered existing trades.

would you ever consider a technology tree system that you can keep as a secret surprise maybe?

Suggested examples would be:

Scavenging would at some level let you discover scrap-crafting which in turn might give birth to being a black smith.
Hunting may give rise to Animal Taming, then domestication and butchery for the meat?
Forestry could lead to Agriculture? Foraging could lead to alchemy, dyes, herbal medicines?
Resources if high enough could venture into mining to get coal & various ore.
Basketry, one which is restricted to a small amount recipes should go onto being able to spin & weave cloth from natural materials and even carpets maybe?
Wood crafting surely should get you into Furniture making?
Fire making is pretty pointless at the moment and I don't think anyone has bothered with this. Imagine if you had to get a level of fire making to allow cooking, metal smelting or even glass blowing to get the windows everyone wants.

I think if you came up with your own technology tree and kept it secret then it would be kind of cool, doesn't need a big tech tree window just the bills & whistles messages that you have discovered the trade and it appears in the relevant skill pool with starting recipes.

Xsyon
05-02-2012, 07:52 AM
As this patch is going live now, I will start a new Feedback thread for continued balance of these changes.

Thanks for all the feedback!

MrDDT
05-02-2012, 07:52 AM
I can see the wealthy players just having more alts to do more skills which is a form of pay for power. I'm okay in principle to skill selection as it should encourage more trade with the majority. We can boycott the rich players :) I have had a little bit of time on the test server, but don't know the total ins and outs though. I have noticed though on the original post that new future trades will be introduced and I'm more worried how they would be introduced when one has already mastered existing trades.

would you ever consider a technology tree system that you can keep as a secret surprise maybe?

Suggested examples would be:

Scavenging would at some level let you discover scrap-crafting which in turn might give birth to being a black smith.
Hunting may give rise to Animal Taming, then domestication and butchery for the meat?
Forestry could lead to Agriculture? Foraging could lead to alchemy, dyes, herbal medicines?
Resources if high enough could venture into mining to get coal & various ore.
Basketry, one which is restricted to a small amount recipes should go onto being able to spin & weave cloth from natural materials and even carpets maybe?
Wood crafting surely should get you into Furniture making?
Fire making is pretty pointless at the moment and I don't think anyone has bothered with this. Imagine if you had to get a level of fire making to allow cooking, metal smelting or even glass blowing to get the windows everyone wants.

I think if you came up with your own technology tree and kept it secret then it would be kind of cool, doesn't need a big tech tree window just the bills & whistles messages that you have discovered the trade and it appears in the relevant skill pool with starting recipes.


I think this is way off topic, and good to put into a suggestion.

About the more alts to do more skills, its also about time management. Skilling up many crafts would also require more time to get all the right stats on more than 1 char. Just think of how many overlapping stats/skills there are and the wasted time it would have trying to get 2+ toons to cover that, when you could just trade.

There is no way to stop alts unless you allow everyone to do everything at the max level. Which I think hurts the game as shown before. Its not in the original plan either.


About adding in new skills later or after you have already mastered your trades, you can simply pick up any new skill added and will have to choose which ones you want more.