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GuideRaguel
05-30-2012, 11:07 AM
Hello Survivors!

Over the past few months we have been hosting the popular Trade Fair Market.
This for many was the home of mass trading, and easy access to the wares of other Survivors and their Tribes.

All this was greatly helped by the teleportation assistance everyone received in order to get to and from the Market.

Starting from the release of this Forum post, we would like to announce that the Guide Team will no longer be hosting the Trade Fair Market.



We feel the time is right to pass this onto any Tribe that feels they can accommodate it.

We have seen some successful Player ran Trade Fair Markets and we would like this to continue.

So what does this mean..?

Well this means the following... (In summary)


The Guide Team will no longer be hosting any Trade Fair Market.
The Trade Fair Markets should/will be hosted by the Xsyon Community
The Guide Team will offer assistance in the form of Announcements in-game, forum posts and Social Networking sites.



If you would like to organise a Trade Fair Market, and you would like the assistance of the Guide Team as described above, please send Myself (GuideRaguel) a forum Private Message.

Alot of the player base have been asking that the Guide Team have less and less involvement with the Trade Fair Market, and to allow the players to organise this themselves.

We hope that this is a positive change for the whole community.

Thank you.

Willowhawk
05-30-2012, 12:52 PM
This will make trade a bit more difficult, but I agree. This is "Post Apocalypse" and this is a player driven game. We will need to work together to plan trade fairs, offer security etc. This will give us more reason to work together, and more reason to build a large tribe over homesteads.

The problem I see is players/vendors outside the tribe cannot drop wagons etc in tribe. Nor can they use/rent building etc. SO...... The sooner the devs can get the rental program going, and do something about carts on tribal land the better ;)

Qwerty
05-30-2012, 01:01 PM
I really don't think the guides and xsyon have thought this through. The most important problem that will stop trading is over the top encumbrance, especially with woodcraft & masonry products even when using carts. You need to sort that out like today if you start refusing teleports.

I also agree with willow as well. Putting the cart before horse again Xsyon? Actually come to think of it there's no horse drawn carts. Oh well it's a rest every 2 paces and hope we all make it in time to do trading ;-)

Calpurnius
05-30-2012, 01:06 PM
I really don't think the guides and xsyon have thought this through. The most important problem that will stop trading is over the top encumbrance, especially with woodcraft & masonry products even when using carts. You need to sort that out like today if you start refusing teleports.

I also agree with willow as well. Putting the cart before horse again Xsyon? Actually come to think of it there's no horse drawn carts. Oh well it's a rest every 2 paces and hope we all make it in time to do trading ;-)

What maybe could be done instead is to come early before the event (day early) like make it the last thing one does before they log out, so when the event does start, it will make things considerably easier.

Definitely will add some realism. I still hope to see the Guides around for the events! :)

Deacon
05-30-2012, 01:13 PM
What maybe could be done instead is to come early before the event (day early) like make it the last thing one does before they log out, so when the event does start, it will make things considerably easier.

Definitely will add some realism. I still hope to see the Guides around for the events! :)

I agree here.....maybe the hosts will have buildings available to store your items ahead of time, or you can bring some carts nearby. Then you just show up and trade them on fair day....but this will also need the host to announce well in advance when fair day is to be...give people time to make plans to have wares available.

Qwerty
05-30-2012, 01:26 PM
Deacon & Calpurnius.

Have a challenge for you. Pretend you have made a deal for a cart, to buy it for let's say 3000 granite bricks. The trade fair is on a work day and you play after work and is in say two workday's time. The trade fair is in the North whilst you are deep in the South. Go for a test run and tell me how long it took you to transport the payment and by the way you have to come back empty handed to the fair receive the new cart.

I'm sure you'll find that even if you have an event free transport with no pvp action that you'll come to my way of thinking ;)

Shill
05-30-2012, 02:15 PM
I really don't think the guides and xsyon have thought this through. The most important problem that will stop trading is over the top encumbrance, especially with woodcraft & masonry products even when using carts. You need to sort that out like today if you start refusing teleports.

I also agree with willow as well. Putting the cart before horse again Xsyon? Actually come to think of it there's no horse drawn carts. Oh well it's a rest every 2 paces and hope we all make it in time to do trading ;-)

I have to say that I agree with Q on this one...I'm excited about tribes hosting the fairs and I think the community should do things like this without the guides, BUT..and that's a big but, the system has to be in place to make this even remotely realistic. As has been said already, try loading up your cart with an even moderate load and pull it across 10 zones...running out of energy every 30-40 steps (if that many). I think carts need to be changed to a flat encumbrance % based on weight...if the cart is super-loaded down, make it 40% movement speed, but NOT take 50% of your energy every step. If the cart is a medium load, 60%-70%...if it's empty, 100% movement speed, etc.

I know the game is very realistic in many regards, but I worry that this may kill trade completely as far as trade fairs are concerned. And once deathporting is gone, there will be no trade of anything other than small items period...

And that's not even touching on Willow's mentioned issue...where do I put my cart if I drag it for hours across the map? I can't put it on the host's tribal land. My only option is to drop it outside nearby and hope it doesn't get totem'd before the fair. The systems need to be in place as soon as possible...

GuideRaguel
05-30-2012, 03:21 PM
Hello everyone,

Myself and the Developers are following this thread, and I must say we are quite surprised at some of the posts here.

We originally thought that players wanted less and less involvement from the guide team, and also wanted us to stop the taxi service that players were getting to and from the Trade fair to encourage a more immersive and realistic gameplay.

Going forward, our goal is to hand over the Trade Fair Market to the community 100%, safe for the Announcements for them, which we would do.

Now reading through the posts it appears to us that your main concerns are weight and encumbrance.

Since our Goal is to hand this over, and not teleport players to the Markets, and keeping this in mind we would love to have some feedback on a few points...


What would you normally carry with you (including numbers if you can), on a single trip to the Trade fair in which you get ported to?



Baring in mind that different items have their own weights, What would you consider being a reasonable number of items to carry in a cart, before it becomes to energy draining? Try to give examples please.



Lastly, what would you suggest we can alter to carts or the characters, that would encourage you to trade the normal way, and not rely on a teleport to do the trading?


We would be very interested to hear what you have to say about this, and we will take all your feedback into consideration.

Thank you for your feedback so far.

Qwerty
05-30-2012, 04:09 PM
Hello everyone,

Myself and the Developers are following this thread, and I must say we are quite surprised at some of the posts here.

We originally thought that players wanted less and less involvement from the guide team, and also wanted us to stop the taxi service that players were getting to and from the Trade fair to encourage a more immersive and realistic gameplay.

Going forward, our goal is to hand over the Trade Fair Market to the community 100%, safe for the Announcements for them, which we would do.

Now reading through the posts it appears to us that your main concerns are weight and encumbrance.

Since our Goal is to hand this over, and not teleport players to the Markets, and keeping this in mind we would love to have some feedback on a few points...


What would you normally carry with you (including numbers if you can), on a single trip to the Trade fair in which you get ported to?



Baring in mind that different items have their own weights, What would you consider being a reasonable number of items to carry in a cart, before it becomes to energy draining? Try to give examples please.



Lastly, what would you suggest we can alter to carts or the characters, that would encourage you to trade the normal way, and not rely on a teleport to do the trading?


We would be very interested to hear what you have to say about this, and we will take all your feedback into consideration.

Thank you for your feedback so far.

Raguel,

I'd expect to do the following as far as self travel goes:

At least put one full basket of any material into a cart and travel normally. Seriously I know bricks, metal and wood is heavy but for the purposes of trading they're not necessarily worth much and perhaps weight should be more proportional to value otherwise masons & wood crafters are not going to become very wealthy traders. Infact, I can see them getting bored and rage quitting.

Carts themselves need to be more flexible. I need to be able to drop them and reconnect on tribe land. If I happen to trade the basket of materials for another cart then the second cart might have to go top of the cart I bought along in the first place or be represented in some other fashion. As a wainwright I would be selling up to 3 or 4 carts in a trade fair session. What am I supposed to do now? make 4 lightning trips???

When you get materials to the fair then why can't we have the facility to rent storage from the host tribe by looking at the permissions again without inclusion of the hosts friends or whatever.

Also the terrain isn't really that cart friendly. We need those totem extensions so can build our own bridges and tidy the roads up etc.

Really think you should give the ability to host and attend trade fairs properly before taking away the teleport services.

Willowhawk
05-30-2012, 04:59 PM
I cannot guess what a good weight would be because that is relevant to current market rates. I do have a few suggestions that could simplify that problem, and make trade fairs more workable.

1) Give a maximum encumbrance or 50% for anyone pulling a cart. That way it's fair for the logger or mason and everyone else. No one will be more than 50% encumbered, and I can move around OK at 50%. That is my cutoff when I am out scavenging or hunting. That's when I pack it in and head back to camp.

2) Give us a "View cart" Option. This way we can set up shop (Our cart) People can just wander around the fair viewing items and then ask for prices, make a deal etc.

3) The ability to drop a cart on another tribe so we don't have to meet outside where there is less protection etc.

4) Tribe leaders need to be able to move any cart on their tribe. (Not have access to the content, just be able to move them) So if a vendor or a tribe member abandons a cart they can at least hook it up and move it out of the way, or off the tribe property.

Just my two cents worth ;)

MrDDT
05-30-2012, 06:35 PM
I think the system of the problem mostly comes from the lack of fast travel. Even making carts take say 1% of the normal weight (which is roughly 10x better than they are now) I dont see people using them to do trade fairs. Even if carts had zero weight, it would take 30+ mins to get to where the event fair would be. Problem lies IMO in most of a overall economy issue.

I think guides teleporting was helping the economy of most of the major pains, but also hurting its overall trade value. Overall travel times weights etc are major issues in this game as a whole.

I would say a rail system or something that is really fast at a cost would be the better way to do it. Maybe make it go around the lake with a few branches off (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW) that head off into the mist. This system would allow people to move around the map giving trade new life, without the need for guides. It can even be a project that guides/players work together on to dig out and get resources to build it.

Another issue is carts and lake travel. The lake really is the fastest way to travel and you cant bring a cart through it. How hard would it to make a boat instead of a cart? Boat cant leave the water unless its empty and in back slot form, but it can hold say 2 or 3 baskets worth of goods at 5% of the normal weight or something.

Value of goods, local resources, rarity, time gathering, weight are the major issues and right now you have only a little from most and weight being the biggest factor.

Riverspirit
05-30-2012, 07:22 PM
In my opinion, this will kill the trade fairs. It gives totally unfair advantage to the tribes that are on the lake near good roads. We would like to host a trade fair, but nobody will come all the way up to our place for it without teleports with the way carts currently work. If you could pull the cart anyplace you can run, just slower, maybe.. but you can't get up here without fighting the cart up at least one hill if you find the right path.

I don't agree that this is a good choice at all. It makes the game less fun, and I don't think people will go unless they are close. :(

Riverspirit
05-30-2012, 07:53 PM
You must have been listening to 1 or 2 players then instead of the main playerbase.
I'm not looking for reality. I have reality every day. It's a game. What exactly does it hurt to continue with the teleporting to trade fairs until you get a system in place to allow us to travel to a trade fair on our own? There was obviously little to no thinking this through before implementing this change.

I agree, I think having tribes host them is a great idea, then we can make up fun events and give prizes and stuff. But don't take away the transportation when there is no easy way to travel.

Deacon
05-30-2012, 10:04 PM
To be percetly honest...I would'nt trade bricks at a fair...I'd go to the area where the bricks were needed, and make them near their use source. I would take a cart with sufficient hammers and chizels with me, and fill the cart with bricks...AT the place where I was selling them......more like selling my brick making services to a tribe. But if you think traveling great distances with a cart loaded with extreme amounts of weight puts me off, when I feel the need to do it, or my tribe needs it done, then you dont know me.

MrDDT
05-30-2012, 10:57 PM
In my opinion, this will kill the trade fairs. It gives totally unfair advantage to the tribes that are on the lake near good roads. We would like to host a trade fair, but nobody will come all the way up to our place for it without teleports with the way carts currently work. If you could pull the cart anyplace you can run, just slower, maybe.. but you can't get up here without fighting the cart up at least one hill if you find the right path.

I don't agree that this is a good choice at all. It makes the game less fun, and I don't think people will go unless they are close. :(


I totally agree, which is also why they should put resources near the mist area (away from the rail system) to promote people living there. Local rare resources that are worthwhile. This will promote both people living near the center (more player protected because more active players and mostly trade) and less people outside near the mist however more rare loot. Teleporting players is a temp fix and is horrid system for economy in game, and worse in an FFA PVP full looting game.

Also nothing is stopping a tribe from moving where they are to areas near the lake. Again this would be where upkeep would start to come into place as being a good idea to remove totems and stop people from locking down an area.

Fixing this isnt as simple as saying "Ok we will teleport people" or "Ok we are done teleporting people" there are many issues and aspects to economy and finding the right fix to this problem.



To be percetly honest...I would'nt trade bricks at a fair...I'd go to the area where the bricks were needed, and make them near their use source. I would take a cart full of hammers and chizels with me in a cart, and fill the cart with them...AT the place where I was selling them......more like selling my brick making services to a tribe. But if you think traveling great distances with a cart loaded with extreme amounts of weight puts me off, when I feel the need to do it, or my tribe needs it done, then you dont know me.


Totally agree Deacon you will have a few people doing that, but what you are asking is for people to go out of their way to make trade happen. If you are doing that extra work for making bricks its likely the value of what you are getting will be an issue later, so they will have to over pay just to get you to do all that extra work. Which now comes to play why wont they just make the bricks themselves because its pretty much just a time issue for bricks.

Also you have some people that will do things just because its how they do things, its unlikely its the normal or common thing to be happening. Worse is when you dont even have a safe spot for yourself NOR your cart/bricks.



Judarires,

I listed a fix that starts it of course there will be more to it but those issues you listed are not really "problems" they are just part of the game. Just because people can jack a cargo from point A to B doesnt make trade bad. You can use protections and use politics. EVE does this very nicely and its a fun very very working system.

About the currency being heavy, its not all that heavy. Problem is most times really dont have proper worth.

MrDDT
05-31-2012, 12:30 AM
You can't even cook fish in-game and you're suggesting a rail network? Let's keep in mind this fix needs to come within the next year...

Those "issues" aren't "problems", they're just parts of the game that make long distance high volume/weight trade unfeasible.

Oh and please explain how you think this is in any way similar to EVE. That's absolutely ludicrous.


I fully agree that high supply (or volume) with weight make trade unfeasible in its current state. Doesnt mean it cant be fixed, and I'm not saying its easy to fix it. This is a major problem for a long time and needs to be looked at from the ground up.

EVE's a sandbox game with a system working just like I told you. I'm not really sure how you think its not similar. Is Xsyon similar to EVE's economy right now? Nope. I would like it to be closer to it, as I believe its a strong economy for a sandbox game. I also see ways of making Xsyon close to it. Starting with those things I listed.


Travel in Xsyon is a major issue. Lack of energy regen systems (resting is the only way, potions, buffs, healing stations etc).
Lack of a faster mode of travel other than sprinting which greatly effects your energy see above why that's a problem.
Weight of items and gear effecting your energy decay.
Lack of faster roads that are prebuild sure players can make the new faster roads but MANY issues with doing that on a larger scale.
No modes of travel with mounts or cars or planes or rail system, magical travel etc.

This travel and transportation issue needs to be addressed while also looking at limited local traded goods. (Much like EVE has). These limited local traded goods need to have and hold a value to players to want to have them and use them. Along with decay.

inhabit
05-31-2012, 01:12 AM
Now hand carts if i remember (rightly or wrongly) were added to ease the mundane task of collecting and gathering resourses, and make building up your tribe lands and leveling up skills less of a chore? For this they have served their purpose well.
We can now carry upto 15-20 long logs/leather and grass stacks etc.............and people are still complaining, we could only carry 1 before!!!! this like the Devs im surprised at i think cart encumberance is fine and I personally dont have issues with it.
Based on the above we can all now build/grind and get to endgame boredom 15x20times quicker than before? (exaggeration i know but indicates my point)

The way most of you are talking seems to be based on trading in bulk, is the game really at that point yet with player base being so low?
General travel terrain issues, energy drain/regeneration rates, small player base, lack of need for an item..plus more all add to the travel problem and have been there since day 1, generally when i trade in game i run with no cart for a specific item like recipes/supreme axe/cart etc no bulk buying and i dont need a trade fair to do this and dont take part in trade fairs for this reason, I dont need to wait for a specific day for an item.

Is fixing trade fairs really a priority right now? opinions will vary, but i would like to see better more complete entertaining content first personally.

MrDDT
05-31-2012, 03:33 AM
Now hand carts if i remember (rightly or wrongly) were added to ease the mundane task of collecting and gathering resourses, and make building up your tribe lands and leveling up skills less of a chore? For this they have served their purpose well.
We can now carry upto 15-20 long logs/leather and grass stacks etc.............and people are still complaining, we could only carry 1 before!!!! this like the Devs im surprised at i think cart encumberance is fine and I personally dont have issues with it.
Based on the above we can all now build/grind and get to endgame boredom 15x20times quicker than before? (exaggeration i know but indicates my point)

The way most of you are talking seems to be based on trading in bulk, is the game really at that point yet with player base being so low?
General travel terrain issues, energy drain/regeneration rates, small player base, lack of need for an item..plus more all add to the travel problem and have been there since day 1, generally when i trade in game i run with no cart for a specific item like recipes/supreme axe/cart etc no bulk buying and i dont need a trade fair to do this and dont take part in trade fairs for this reason, I dont need to wait for a specific day for an item.

Is fixing trade fairs really a priority right now? opinions will vary, but i would like to see better more complete entertaining content first personally.

When I play other sandbox games, I trade 1000s of times a day. How many times do you trade a day when you play in Xsyon? 2 times a day would be a lot in my book if someone were doing this right now in Xsyon. I would say the avg player is trading 2 times a week.

inhabit
05-31-2012, 05:01 AM
Not sure if i get what your trying to say DDT current system cant cope with 1000 trades a day? Then yes i agree needs lots of improvement to acheive this.

But what im saying is are we actually at a point where this needs the devs main focus? Then no is my opinion. The population is to low and foucus shoukd be on adding other features to retain new players.


The way i see it working is as populatuon expands players will have others close by and local trade markets will begin to appear rather than what we have now.

Also if they are adding death penalties shortly they cannot continue to warp players to fairs which i why they have possibly started this thread.

Qwerty
05-31-2012, 05:58 AM
All they have to do for now is at least make encumbrance issue a lot easier with using carts and how to carry additional carts to market (Like carts being represented similar to the interceptor key for slot storage found in another famous post apocalyptic mmo game.). Simple solutions for now. Meanwhile everyone that is in a large enough tribe needs to build some sort of trade centre and be able to rent out stall space to local homesteaders. Xsyon needs to sort out the real estate patch for renting out with the permissions use and revamp carts accordingly in the very near future.

I like the idea for converting carts into temporary stalls where goods are seen by the customer which means you could be a traveling salesman and have a one man trade fair anywhere :)

Other projects if allowed with totem extensions like road improvement, bridges and even railways (After scrap craft & black smithing.) can be a large community project for the future. this may even be a source of pvp on who controls the tolls ;)

Boats are well overdue and should be in the game now, period.

Meanwhile, teleports to trade fairs should remain until the community have the required tools in the game to take over the trading properly.

Degradation is also needed for some products like carts to have a sustainable market. It seems only armour, tools and weapons have this quality and this is another time bomb problem coming up in the very near future.

Let's have a proper economic mechanisms and eventually something to fight over which is what war is all about. That's how you keep players in the game. The game should be about fun and not frustration due to the impossibility to do everyday chores like transportation.

Hodo
05-31-2012, 08:07 AM
I fully agree that high supply (or volume) with weight make trade unfeasible in its current state. Doesnt mean it cant be fixed, and I'm not saying its easy to fix it. This is a major problem for a long time and needs to be looked at from the ground up.

EVE's a sandbox game with a system working just like I told you. I'm not really sure how you think its not similar. Is Xsyon similar to EVE's economy right now? Nope. I would like it to be closer to it, as I believe its a strong economy for a sandbox game. I also see ways of making Xsyon close to it. Starting with those things I listed.


Travel in Xsyon is a major issue. Lack of energy regen systems (resting is the only way, potions, buffs, healing stations etc).
Lack of a faster mode of travel other than sprinting which greatly effects your energy see above why that's a problem.
Weight of items and gear effecting your energy decay.
Lack of faster roads that are prebuild sure players can make the new faster roads but MANY issues with doing that on a larger scale.
No modes of travel with mounts or cars or planes or rail system, magical travel etc.

This travel and transportation issue needs to be addressed while also looking at limited local traded goods. (Much like EVE has). These limited local traded goods need to have and hold a value to players to want to have them and use them. Along with decay.

I will start by saying, Eve's economy system was built by a couple of people who have extensive experience and degrees in finance, economics, and global markets, unlike Xsyon.

There could be much that could be learned by this system in Eve by several "sandbox" MMOs.

The problems are as you mentioned several fold. We do need a beast of burden system, draft animals or just taming so we can do those things, that will help lift the problem. Otherwise we end up with the Roma Victor problem of people staying on their home boards and just creating alt accounts to make things they cant make or need. Which does the oppossite of promoting trade.

While I am opposed to having a trade fair every 3 days or on "founders isle" everytime. I am not oppossed, to the guide supported fast travel system, until we get mounts or draft animals to make transporting items a bit faster.

Currently if I were to run strait line from where I live in the southwest with a cart, 40-60min of travel to get to IS-Bootcamp location, about 60-90min of travel to the Mercs location. And thats because there are no roads that are near me, and many mountains that I can not get a cart over.

So I suggest the next big dev push should be fixing these issues.
-Draft animals and or mounts
-rarer resources for crafting and trade
-Cart security and structure rental

With those three things the economy will have the most basic level of what is needed to get the ball rolling on its own.

Right now there are to many common resource items, the quality of resources isnt dependant on where you are but on your skill, which should have some affect on things, but the location should have a larger affect. In the wonderful real world, Washington Granite is better than Morrocan granite. Not all granite sources are equal, not all limestone is equal, not all timber is equal.

Qwerty
05-31-2012, 12:05 PM
Why do you need global trade in the first place???

Ideally most trade could be local, unfortunately as you pointed out we have a problem with population. There is a limited market that seems to getting tighter all the time. Yes who will buy my carts now? You should they last forever and are indestructible?

If it was a planned out more that certain areas had more of an abundance in types of materials or even quality and crafters had rare recipes to play with then a global trade could happen albeit very slowly. The larger tribes and more experienced PvP players could do trading caravans that could travel from trade centre to trade centre. Creator could tag along to do the crowd attracting entertainment for them. :)

The first issue to make any of this possible though is the encumbrance limit when using carts which I'm sure the devs could resolve overnight by a few algorithm adjustments. There's other issues, but this is the bear minimum to remove the teleporting service.

Areas of rare resources could be located in each corner of the map as already discussed in other forum posts for PvP and yes we could have a Post Apocalyptic "Eve" at walking pace if we have enough evil tribes who want to raid the caravans for their own profit. Again they would not want to suffer the encumbrance of the swag though upon getaway.

Hodo
05-31-2012, 12:15 PM
Juda your right about Eve, mostly.

If that were true then Mortal Online would be HUGE, if not bigger than Eve. As it has short travel distances, rare resources, and is PvP focused. Eve has a modern and deep economic structure that isnt JUST based on PvP, it is also required for crafting, PvE, and exploration (what little there is). Not to mention a constantly changing and evolving gameverse.

MrDDT
05-31-2012, 01:01 PM
First of all, on the topic of "learning from EVE"... Xsyon has very little to learn from EVE. The games are polar fucking opposites in every way imaginable. EVE is a space game in which you can travel between trade hubs in minutes. The markets are driven by war between huge corporations and alliances fighting to control resources. Xsyon is an apocalyptic game in which you can travel between tribes in hours. The markets are driven by whoever wants to build the largest treehouse that day. Get real. There is only one thing Xsyon has to learn from EVE --- PvP is important,

I think Inhabit is most correct in pointing out the real question, that I hope some of you will answer here:
Why do you need global trade in the first place???

Is it because the economy and crafting is so poorly done that, for example, Wainrights like Qwerty need the entire game world to buy from him in order to justify his tradeskill?

It's a really confusing mess you've got here. It seems like you're just trying to circumvent the entire game to crowbar in one aspect of sandboxes that you think will legitimize this one. This game wasn't designed for global trade, so why is it such a focus, with the trade fairs and now this thread?


EVE's system isnt based on PVP. Its based on limited local resources and risk vs reward.

Anyways I dont want to fight about EVE and what it's system is. I do want to say this problem will not be fixed with a simple change to the weight of carts. Its a core in depth problem. Changing the weight of what is in a cart would help slightly but the real issues are at the core of the game.

Ive listed most of those problems already. They take a lot of dev time in thought and coding.

No where in Xsyon does it take hours to get by the way. EVE's travel system can take as long. I can go from 1 side of the map corner to the other in 15mins.

Shill
06-01-2012, 04:14 PM
No where in Xsyon does it take hours to get by the way. EVE's travel system can take as long. I can go from 1 side of the map corner to the other in 15mins.

I call total BS on this and would have to see it to believe it. With 100 running and an good agility suit (150ish AGI) it takes a good amount of time for me to get from 820 down to 696 if visiting River/Willow. You must have 250+ agility or you're blowing steam again...

Osirrus
06-01-2012, 06:35 PM
Hello everyone,

Myself and the Developers are following this thread, and I must say we are quite surprised at some of the posts here.

We originally thought that players wanted less and less involvement from the guide team, and also wanted us to stop the taxi service that players were getting to and from the Trade fair to encourage a more immersive and realistic gameplay.

Going forward, our goal is to hand over the Trade Fair Market to the community 100%, safe for the Announcements for them, which we would do.

Now reading through the posts it appears to us that your main concerns are weight and encumbrance.

Since our Goal is to hand this over, and not teleport players to the Markets, and keeping this in mind we would love to have some feedback on a few points...


What would you normally carry with you (including numbers if you can), on a single trip to the Trade fair in which you get ported to?


Wainwrights need a way to carry multiple carts inside another cart.
Woodcrafters need to be able to carry full baskets of wooden handles etc
Masons need to be able to carry a few 1000 bricks
Hunters need to be able to carry 100s of bones
Tailors need to be able to carry a few 1000 twine
Scavengers need to be able to carry 100s of metal sheets
etc ect


Baring in mind that different items have their own weights, What would you consider being a reasonable number of items to carry in a cart, before it becomes to energy draining? Try to give examples please.


You should be able to fill it with as much as it can hold, whether that be 5 logs in a 5 slot cart or 20 baskets full to the brim in a 20 slot cart.
there should be a maximum of 50 or 60% encumberance and movement speed penalty. (carts need to be a viable PVP target to compensate for the amount you can carry... do you risk taking everything in one run or do it in multiple trips in case you get attacked and looted etc)


Lastly, what would you suggest we can alter to carts or the characters, that would encourage you to trade the normal way, and not rely on a teleport to do the trading?



1. Trade Fair Host needs to be able to allow trader to unhook their carts on the the tribeland. buyers need to be able to see inside carts via permissions granted by the cart owner (view only ?)

2. Expansion Totems that allow players to terraform a path suitable for carts. so that we can form roads/bridges to connect trade routes or a path to the lake (see 3) expansion totems should be a viable PVP target

3. Give us the ability to create simple rafts that a cart can be pulled onto and transported across the lake/down rivers. it should be possible to pack up the raft and place it on you back like logs/branches etc or in one cart slot. you should have to stand at a tiller/wheel to steer raft with wasd. rafts should have no ownership. anyone can jump on and steer the raft. rafts should take 30 secs to pack/unpack. during which time if you are attacked the timer stops. rafts should be lootable off of dead players backs. Rafts should greatly increase travel speed on water, to approx 80 swim skill speed, so that they are still attackable by swimmers

4. Make carts a viable PVP target. i.e when the carts owner dies there cart becomes lootable for the same time as the normal player loot window


We would be very interested to hear what you have to say about this, and we will take all your feedback into consideration.

the biggest thing you should take into consideration is that Xsyon was designed with local trade in mind and hopefully the player base will only increase over the coming years. do you want to basically waste time now fixing a problem that will fix itself once the player base increases and spreads out a bit more.

with the introduction of totem decay/expansion totems and more reasons to PVP along with ranged combat and heal abilities will see a greater retention of players and will fix the problem of the need for long distance trade.

until such a time that there is the ability to get from one side of the lake to the other (north to south) in 15-30 mins with a fully laden cart, you are still going to have to offer the teleportation service.

Thank you for your feedback so far.

My thoughts

MrDDT
06-01-2012, 06:55 PM
I call total BS on this and would have to see it to believe it. With 100 running and an good agility suit (150ish AGI) it takes a good amount of time for me to get from 820 down to 696 if visiting River/Willow. You must have 250+ agility or you're blowing steam again...

Again?

I have just over 200 AGI. Plus maybe I'm off by 3 or 4 mins. Either way its not that big of a map when you consider most of it is water, which is very fast. I dont know what a "Good amount of time" is but getting from 820 to 696 wouldnt take but like 6mins for me, maybe less. Use roads and water, as they help a lot.

Added after 6 minutes:


Limited local resources that are controlled through PvP.
Risk vs Reward, where the risk is PvP. People buy big expensive mission and mining fits, but the only time they are lost is in PVP.
The vast majority of the items and resources are being expended in PvP. The demand for items is due to PvP. The supply for items is controlled by PvP. EVE IS ABOUT PVP.



Oh, so Hodo was lying when he said it took him ~1 hour to travel between his totem and IS' or the Merc's? You can travel from corner to corner in 15 minutes... are you carrying a full cart?

Oh and that reminds me of another issue I saw playing last week -- extreme imbalance of stats. Dang came and visited me by my totem one day, and if it was any game other than Xsyon, I would have reported him for speed hacking. But I know that this is Xsyon, where the character creation and stat system is THAT bad. Remember when Jordi spent months reassuring everyone how people would be generally able to avoid ganks? 99% of the characters in game would have no chance escaping Dang.

Now, you may think the previous paragraph is off-topic, but it's not. Who do you balance carts for? The players with top speed, middle speed, or bottom speed? Top encumbrance, middle encumbrance, or bottom encumbrance? It apparently takes you 15 minutes to cross from one corner of the map to another, yet it takes Hodo around an hour to move a shorter distance, between two tribe totems. How long do you think it takes for the characters built for skills that dont include agility and strength, a few hours? and with a cart? ROFL.


PVP doesnt have to play any part at all. I dont know why you feel PVP is the only way for this to happen. Supply and demand is the going on whether or not PVP is even in the game. You see EVE being about PVP when its so much more than that. You can play in EVE and never even get into a battle with someone else if you stay in high sec. You have NPCs you can fight and make money from or even farm resources and make money in high sec. Low/Null sec is where most of the PVP takes place (outside of wormholes) and its rewarded with higher valued items.

Demand for items can come from many aspects. PVE alone can create a demand for items.

Hodo could have taken him 1 hour from 1 zone to the next. I also not talking about dragging a cart. Carts are jacked up in many ways and for long travel are not worth it at all. Once they remove deathporting they will be required more but still not really worth it.

About the stats, I fully agree. I believe that STR/FORT/AGI are way to powerful compared to SPI/CHA/INT/DEX because they effect you in other ways. I believe its off topic, but linking it the way you did I would say mostly balance the carts so most people have fun. By now my guess is the avg person playing has around 70AGI, 90AGI if you count what they wear on avg for gear. So I guess you balance it around that.

MrDDT
06-02-2012, 03:23 AM
Believe it or not people die in PVE also, creating demand also.

There are some areas that are harder PVE. EVE has PVP and they make the game focus more on PVP. However, an economy in a sandbox doesnt need to have PVP. I hate having to say this because I do like PVP, and I want to see it in a sandbox, but facts are facts. You dont NEED PVP to create a demand. I believe its easier to use PVP but its not the only way.

You can take other games and find there is a demand for goods even when those games have no PVP.


I agree fully that Xsyon's economy is broken in many ways. Demand is very low, Supply is very high. Mostly due to lack of decay and how easy resources are to gather. I agree also that there is few if any true resource sinks. The only ones I know are A)Building which has no purpose, and B)Skilling up.

My point was not that PVP cant help create more of a demand. It was only that it wasnt required. You can create demand through either or, neither are required to be in the game to create demand. The demand problem with Xsyon is a multilevel issue.

I just dont want people to think that PVP is the only answer for economy. I want people to see why the economy isnt working, and PVP isnt the cause nor is lack of PVP the cause. Its many other aspects.
Ones Ive already listed to start with.

GuideRaguel
06-02-2012, 10:49 AM
Hello Survivors,

Taking all your feedback into consideration, we are going to commence the Teleportation service for players to continue to enjoy the Trade fair and the benefits that the event comes with.

We will look at all your feedback, and see what can be done to improve the current system.

Thank you everyone, you can still post feedback if you wish to do so in this thread.

Hodo
06-04-2012, 05:24 AM
The way Juda talks up Eve makes me want to play it again. But then I think about the painful skill system that I might as well build a macrobot to run my ship and the monthly fee to do it, and the WoW in space feel to it, I just cant go back. I loved the economy, but I still like a bit of realism in my games.

tomduril
06-05-2012, 03:06 AM
Could you guys stay on topic pls ? - I dont play EVE but afaik they have a global contract system - where you can post quests and buy/sell orders? Its totally unrelated to the Xsyon Trade Fairs ...

Hodo
06-05-2012, 05:10 AM
Why did you post this if you're just going to throw words around with out any meaning behind them? It's also completely unrelated to this thread.

Painful skill system? How?
Macrobot to run your ship? Why? EVE is a fairly engaging game, even in no-risk activites...
WoW in space? How?
EVE lacked realism? How?

Let me sum it up for you.

I dont like the time based skill leveling system, I buy a book module, I wait XXX amount of hours for it to finish reading, and *ding* I gain a level. It doesnt matter how long I actually do something or if I am even in game doing it. I wouldnt mind if it was also for offline learning, but its not.

The hitpoint bubble and combat system is much like WoW, except with a third deminsion in the combat, and even thats a falsehood. I mash whatever combat que buttons I have assigned, for the simplisity sake, 1,2,3. So I smash 1 then 2 then 3, and BAM! I fire off laser bank 1, bank 2, and missile 1, no need to actually aim, its tab based lock. The chances of hitting are based on level and ship equipment, no where in the equasion is personal skill.

Last part, lacking realism. Really do I have to expand on what was above. Honestly Vendetta Online has a better space feel to it, and it runs on my Kindle. But Vendetta Online took time to actually program in Newtonian physics for space flight, and object in motion stays in motion until an equal or greater force acts appon it. This with the non-tab based combat system makes it feel more real, and thus less WoW based. Its like comparing the Nintendo 8bit game "Top Gun", with Falcon BMS (Falcon 4.0 the newest version).

brando
06-06-2012, 01:02 AM
I agree with Prokop about PvP driving demand. I also agree with DDT that there is a crafting and PvE drive for demand as well. Having played every sandbox game under the sun I will throw my support behind PvP as a mechanic to increase demand and stimulate an economy. WoW's economy is so inflated because a large majority of the items in the economy never go away. Global economics is driven by consumerism these days. The US economy was built upon the premise that stuff was meant to be replaced which is how we built such a massive manufacturing base.

Let's be honest, there's not much of a turnover rate to weapons and armor. Tools are slightly higher, but its generally a steep curve at the start of the game and levels out as you get access to higher durability tools.

The 200 AGI is just ridiculous. I don't mind having such a gap from the highest possible starting stat of 90 to the 200 range as long as it doesn't create such a massive min/max effect gap. Darkfall suffers horribly from that gap.

As for the trade fairs. People are way too used to easy mode in this game as it is. Once the tribal wars and sieges start up people are going to scream and cry about their pixels because they've gotten too used to an easy mode flavor of Xsyon. People already ask me to kill them after we trade so that they can get teleported back to their totem. I couldn't believe it the first time the request was made; I figured I'd just loot their corpse of the stuff they received from me in the transaction. Obviously I didn't because I knew they had become too trusting, but you can't expect the game to last like that forever.

What this game needs is strong tribal leadership. It is the same thing that any game community needs. You need people who understand economics and how to generate regional geopolitical and economic structures that can trade "internationally" and then distribute regionally. IS shouldn't be the only ones producing a price list and having a chokehold on the economy, but DDT's persistence has paid off and now the south is a hotspot for acquiring whatever you need. Wolverines are taking the steps necessary to set up our own economic powerhouse in the north. We need more tribes that can compete and supply smaller tribes closer to home. Eventually wars will break out and PvP will happen. That will also drive the need for crafters to produce items for trade. I'm hoping we can create political bodies that include smaller tribes as supplemental forces to engage in these wars as well.

The game will progress beyond the suppressed PvP environment whether people like it or not. I say we need to get ready for it and used to it now by getting rid of the trade fairs and propping up regional economies. Combat needs some tweaking, but its pretty obvious at this point that Jordi is working on it. You can cry about the pace of progress, but its happening and that is a lot more than can be said about a lot of games. Game developers give us a set of features, but its really the players that decide how the game plays out.

If you want to contribute to the game then give constructive feedback on specific features, not a post like "oh yeah, archery would be cool," but specifics like balancing issues, other skills and mechanics impacted, suggestions on materials for bows, etc. The more comprehensive your suggestion is the more likely it is to be implemented and just because it isn't in overnight or within the next 6 months doesn't mean it was overlooked. It might already be on the books, but it was tweaked because of something you suggested.

End Rant

MrDDT
06-06-2012, 03:28 AM
I agree with everything you said Brando good post.

I wanted to point out, that I didnt mean that PVP couldnt drive economy. I was just stating that it wasnt the ONLY way to drive it nor that it was required at all. I think a lot of people are afraid of PVP in a game and making it required to play Xsyon would not be the best thing at this time IMO.

I think many many aspects of the game need to be worked on before we can start having tribal wars where people lose cities. I also believe that people need to start to see that the game should be getting harder because this "easy mode" we have now is killing economy.

Gathering in 30mins enough mats to make 100 weapons which will last you the rest of your Xsyon gaming time is major balance issue on how easy resources are to get, and how slow decay is on items.

Hodo
06-06-2012, 05:27 AM
Prokop,

I use the term "WoW" because 99% of the current generation of gamers dont understand D&D Hitpoint Bubble. Which is WHERE WoW got its idea from, and actually most games that followed.

On Eve and its offline skilling, thats great, I liked that, but I hate how it doesnt matter if your online or offline. If I am online I should gain some kind of bonus just to keep me from asking a guild/corp mate to loan me a few hundred thousand ISK to get the learning modules I need to skill up while offline for a month.

Now before you climb back up on your weak assed soap box I am going to say. I like Eve its a great game but its not the game for me and I stated my reason for that. If you dont like it thats nice, I dont care this topic isnt about Eve.

Good day sir!

brando
06-06-2012, 12:19 PM
I wanted to point out, that I didnt mean that PVP couldnt drive economy. I was just stating that it wasnt the ONLY way to drive it nor that it was required at all. I think a lot of people are afraid of PVP in a game and making it required to play Xsyon would not be the best thing at this time IMO.


Oh, I'm right there with you that PvP isn't the only that should drive the economy and I didn't think you were implying that :)

I agree that we need mechanics that support a PvP environment and I believe the Hi-sec and Null-sec elements of EVE would help Xsyon out. All tribe areas in the central zone are safe; All tribe areas outside of that set zone are not. Make PvE and resource gathering much more efficient and rewarding in the dangerous areas and not very rewarding in the central area. Keep mechanics in the central area the same. This way tribes are forced to be out and about in the "outlands" to get access to better resources that are more abundant and bring all their riches back into the central zones. This would create a wealthier, more developed central area and a wastelands where PKers and "murderers" could reside. All the White Knight tribes would be able to roam in the outer areas and defend crafters/resource gatherers while the PKers could live deep in the wastelands. It would drive a reason to PvP and those who want to play as Bandits would be able to assume the risk and host their totem out in the open PvP areas.

You could still get killed in the central areas so tribes would have to defend their trade routes, but you'd have a safe area on your totem. Obviously hiding on your totem would give you limited access to resources so eventually you'd have to venture out of your hole to risk getting PK'd. Those who want to play tea party on their front lawn can still do so; Just hit up another tribe to deliver resources to your home :P

Hodo
06-06-2012, 01:50 PM
After realising that I have been horribly derailed by a troll, I placed him on my ignore list so I can move on without being distracted by the walls of text.

I agree with Brando, and DDT, that there should be something more than just a PvP driven economy. The High-Sec, null-sec stuff is plausable with of course some changes to it so it would fit into the theme of Xsyon. But I also feel that there should be some more influence by the players in the larger tribes to help police their areas of influence.

I am pretty sure that there are 3 maybe 4 large tribes left in Xsyon. Mercs, Rainy River, Industrial Strength, and one other that I dont know the name of. But Mercs and the other one, operate mostly up north and have that area pretty much under control. And on the otherhand IS and RR, have the south pretty much undercontrol.

brando
06-06-2012, 02:52 PM
You mean the Wolverines? :)

Hodo
06-06-2012, 03:30 PM
You mean the Wolverines? :)

Yes, thanks, I didnt know.

MrDDT
06-06-2012, 07:34 PM
After realising that I have been horribly derailed by a troll, I placed him on my ignore list so I can move on without being distracted by the walls of text.

I agree with Brando, and DDT, that there should be something more than just a PvP driven economy. The High-Sec, null-sec stuff is plausable with of course some changes to it so it would fit into the theme of Xsyon. But I also feel that there should be some more influence by the players in the larger tribes to help police their areas of influence.

I am pretty sure that there are 3 maybe 4 large tribes left in Xsyon. Mercs, Rainy River, Industrial Strength, and one other that I dont know the name of. But Mercs and the other one, operate mostly up north and have that area pretty much under control. And on the otherhand IS and RR, have the south pretty much undercontrol.


Players policing their own doesnt really work. There needs to be reasons and benefits to not just randomly killing every person you see. Also should be benefits to protecting the weak, and defending vs evils.

Anyways, its a long standing dream and I dont see it happening anytime soon.