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View Full Version : Feedback Request: Creature AI 2012-07-05



Xsyon
07-05-2012, 09:32 PM
Please provide feedback on the currents state of creature AI on the Test Server here.

In particular we are looking for feedback on:

- Do you experience any desynch issues?

- Balance: Are creatures too weak / too strong (in general) or do they seem to have a decent range of power?

- Creature behavior and reactions to players.

- Are there any situations where you see creatures getting stuck, spinning in circles or behaving strangely?

Any other feedback on the current state of creatures is appreciated. GuideMihr will be available at roughly 2:00 AM PST to spawn and 'age' creatures for anyone that wants to help with specific tests. Feedback on revenants is also welcome in this thread.

There are a few things I plan to adjust this weekend:
- Reduce the ability of small critters to interrupt your swings.
- Adjust reactions of small and injured critters in combat.
- Review and adjust 'hit boxes'.

Thanks

Pauven
07-06-2012, 02:52 AM
Revenants are definitely too strong. There are 10+ between me and anywhere, I can't go outside longer than a couple of minutes before one runs up to me. I couldn't kill the weakest one I managed to find (180hp - I was close though), let alone the strongest one (320+hp). They respawn in the exact same position 2-3 minutes after death, so I can't team up with others to clear them away from my area. The revenants alone made the game unplayable.

I didn't manage to test much else because of that, but I did notice that at one point, when I ran into the furthest corner from any that I could find, and stopped moving, a couple of revenants walked straight up to me, milled about next to me for a few seconds, and walked off without killing me.

Olokia
07-06-2012, 02:57 AM
I have been quite excited about the abandonment phase and I just logged on to the test server to try it out.

I wished I hadn't.

1) Outside my tribe, there are at least 15+ revenants. I can't get anywhere without dying. Running from them is not an option because I run out of stamina and a new lot of revenants kill me.
2) There is no point killing them to be able to go anywhere because they re spawn within 3 minutes.
3) As a fairly new player, I have no chance of killing them. They kill me in 2 hits and I do no damage to them. I'm not going to risk wearing my armour because they will still kill me.
4) I can open bins but I can't pick them up. Is this going to stay like that? Empty bins will just litter the place.
5) I am not allowed to either open or drag a cart in a deserted tribe. The cart is obviously abandoned, so why can't I access it?


I had been hoping that because there is an unusually high amount of deserted tribes right now that the revenant spawn would be lower initially until most of them are gone.

I also think that if you kill a revenant, then it shouldn't just respawn again within a few minutes in the same area. I don't think animals do that so why should revenants?

As there are quite a lots of revenants, then they shouldn't be limited to only the strongest players killing them. You will just put new players off if they keep dying all the time.

I think the game is quite unplayable as it is and I am actually thinking about not renewing my subscription if things don't change.

P.S I would give feedback on animals but I can't get anywhere to actually test them.

Pauven
07-06-2012, 03:10 AM
I had been hoping that because there is an unusually high amount of deserted tribes right now that the revenant spawn would be lower initially until most of them are gone.

I also think that if you kill a revenant, then it shouldn't just respawn again within a few minutes in the same area. I don't think animals do that so why should revenants?

As there are quite a lots of revenants, then they shouldn't be limited to only the strongest players killing them. You will just put new players off if they keep dying all the time.

I think the game is quite unplayable as it is and I am actually thinking about not renewing

Unfortunately, Olokia is right. I agree with how they shouldn't be limited to only the strongest players killing them, and maybe a decrease in their spawn until the abandoned tribes that currently litter Xyson have been completely removed.

I can, however understand the fact they respawn (albeit much too fast), but I think, however, a good balance for this would be them respawning weaker than before, maybe 1/2 or 3/4 health, until they spawn under a certain health value, where once they're dead, they don't respawn (for example, 180hp gets killed, respawns as 90hp, dies and respawns as 45hp, then as it's under 50, stays dead once it's killed again).

I also understand and agree with Olokia about how impossible to play the game currently is. When you spend more time respawning than you do playing, things aren't fun.

MrDDT
07-06-2012, 03:32 AM
I think at the current stage in the game Zombies are too hard. There is a lack of any tactics or tools to fight them. Healing HP, and Energy is very hard with 10 monsters attacking you. Even if you just count up the fact they hit for 15+ HP per attack, and say a player hits for 15HP per attack.
Most players have about 70HP. Zombies have about 120+ HP. Players will run out of stamina long before killing a pack of them, with no way to heal energy other than running off (which takes energy) and resting. On top of this you have HP issues which takes a very very long time regen. So what are players expected to do?

I myself have no problems with current state of Zombies, I think its great seeing the life in the game, however, there everywhere, even in the starting areas. Newer players are shit out of luck with trying to build up or even place a totem.

Zombies should have a shorter leash to the totems they are respawning at to help solve this problem.

Other animals seem to be fine to me. Again there should be harder areas of the world for advanced players like myself, who have some of the best armor, weapons, tactics and skills.
Even harder areas where players need to group up to kill things or harvest resources.

Azzym
07-06-2012, 04:47 AM
Immensely fun in that you have added something that is really dangerous to the game. I like how they camp at totems, but even more that packs of them roam from one totem to another (at least thats what it looked like). This makes no place safe for afk'ing :)

They are a bit strong though. As a new player dressed up in low quality leather they hit me for lots of damage. They seemed to be nerfed a bit today compared to the test run I had 3 days ago tho but it was still alot. I really can't come up with a strategy to kill one of them on my own without they killing me first (I have 72hp). They move slow, but hit fast. As soon as I try to get in range to hit them, they hit me, and they dont miss. So IMO it would be a little more fun if I actually had a chance to kill one on my own. Lots of reservations here due to the fact that my combat skills are very low.

The first day I tried the test server the revenants seemed to be linked in a much harder way and there were more of them around each totem. Today there seemed to be fewer of them, but stronger. I like this change. Perhaps the nr of revenants should depend on how large the homestead was before it was abandoned, perhaps it already is...

I think something should be done with the re-spawn rate. Its too fast now. Perhaps spawn the revenants once daily or something like that.

It would be cool if you could skin them or extract bones from them.

My thoughts for now...

taediumvitae
07-06-2012, 06:16 AM
Animals:
Bears that Mihr was kind enough to spown for me are what I would expect from them (Range from 160-700 HP).
Its impossible (or at least almost imossible) to kill the biggest one solo.

All the other animals seem to be moving kinda fast. Seems like they are warping.

When there is more then one animal fighting me. When I kill one and the other stands on the corpse I cant seem to damage it untill I move and pull that animal of the corpse.

Corpses of animals on test server dissapear after 1 minute. Hope its just for testing not a new "feature" becouse You need more time to fully skin bigger animals.
If anything I would even let the corpses stay a bit longer then they do on live right now.


Revenants:
They do 10 damage to an armored person.
Revs that I have seen have 160-330 HPs. It seems a bit much since most of players have < 100 HP with an armor on.
Im talking about Revs with no armor or weapons.

Since I have 230HP and do >20 damage a hit killing even 3 Revs at once is possible for me, but there are only a few players with stats like that.

The problem is HP regen. It takes me 5 minutes to regain my HPs. That means Im wasting 5 minutes of my life every time I encounter and fight Revs that are everywhere.
Game needs some kind of out of combat healing (bandages?) that would boost Your HP regen while beeing applied.

Some Revs cannot be looted. The Loot window do not appear.

The biggest issue with Revs is that 2 minutes after they are killed they respown at the place of their death.
I have no objections about them getting back up after dying (if they havent been skinned, I hear we will be able to skin them), but the respown time is insane.
People will not be able to Scavange anywhere if the Revs can not be erradicated for more then 2 minutes.


Aram

Whorlok
07-06-2012, 06:22 AM
Revenants are definitely too strong. There are 10+ between me and anywhere, I can't go outside longer than a couple of minutes before one runs up to me. I couldn't kill the weakest one I managed to find (180hp - I was close though), let alone the strongest one (320+hp). They respawn in the exact same position 2-3 minutes after death, so I can't team up with others to clear them away from my area. The revenants alone made the game unplayable.

I didn't manage to test much else because of that, but I did notice that at one point, when I ran into the furthest corner from any that I could find, and stopped moving, a couple of revenants walked straight up to me, milled about next to me for a few seconds, and walked off without killing me.

i agree..Revenants TO STRONG....give us also the chance if one of the revenants is not at range of the other revenants that we can kill one of them...or give us a healing bandage/plant..or split the group 1 revenant and 2 revenant are aggresive

Fyrex
07-06-2012, 06:57 AM
I agree with what DDT has said above, at this time they are probably way to strong for starting players and they do wander to far from the totem they spawned. Rainy River is surrounded by Rev's and they keep walking through or gates. please fix that. Walls seem to work but gates they just run through which is annoying especially if you run to get pee and come back dead and some zombie chick is now wearing your coat... grrrrr!!!!

Deacon
07-06-2012, 10:04 AM
I have to agree...I like a challenge, but I dont like it to be impossible. They seem to have longer range without weapons, than I do with one, or syc is messed up...dont know...but I couldnt hit them, without them hitting me several times as well. You dont need to make each one a monster HP beast....they have numbers that should make up for less HP. Dont know what changed since 2 days ago when I tried them, but it only had 120 HP, which was good...the beast today had 220. No way can we hope to beat them. Dont set things for the few top end players that have extreme HP, and HP (clone deer) suits.


EDIT: oh, and I hope the respawn is just for testing purposes...else how are we supposed to clear an area if only for awhile? (I dont think they should spawn more than once a RL day) Would make scavenging impossible, as well as many other activities

Snakepit
07-06-2012, 10:48 AM
Revenants i think to strong because there range of hitting is more without a weapon than me with a weapon. When i try to run up to them and hit and run away the x button have to be pressed again after the hit. That take to much time to get out of the way. The revenants will always hit back. At the moment they revenants grow fast and are around 200 and 350 hp. For one player, starter or advanced it isnt possible to kill one. IF the revenants stay strong as they are now they will bring players together because you need around 4 players to kill one. What do we get back when we kill one? You can make a choice that smaller animals are for solo kills and revenants only can be killed by a group of players. How bad this is for solo players how much it will boost the collaboration in xsyon. And i think thats what we need at the moment. In RL people get a band with each other because the need to work together.

So revenants are to strong if the intention is that they can be killed by one player. The are probably good when they are a group activitie.

Some other think. The revenats walk through a closed door.
I like that they much bigger then player toons
The range they walk is good. I am happy when they walk away from the camp and in the meanwhile i can loot the bins in there camp.

MrDDT
07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Revenants i think to strong because there range of hitting is more without a weapon than me with a weapon. When i try to run up to them and hit and run away the x button have to be pressed again after the hit. That take to much time to get out of the way. The revenants will always hit back. At the moment they revenants grow fast and are around 200 and 350 hp. For one player, starter or advanced it isnt possible to kill one. IF the revenants stay strong as they are now they will bring players together because you need around 4 players to kill one. What do we get back when we kill one? You can make a choice that smaller animals are for solo kills and revenants only can be killed by a group of players. How bad this is for solo players how much it will boost the collaboration in xsyon. And i think thats what we need at the moment. In RL people get a band with each other because the need to work together.

So revenants are to strong if the intention is that they can be killed by one player. The are probably good when they are a group activitie.

Some other think. The revenats walk through a closed door.
I like that they much bigger then player toons
The range they walk is good. I am happy when they walk away from the camp and in the meanwhile i can loot the bins in there camp.


Good points you bring up.

Is the intent to make Revs a group action?

Why was the # of Revs decreased but the HP increased. I think it should be the other way around.
Make their HP like 50, but have like 10 per totem. It was a lot more fun with many Revs that were easier than it was with just 1 with a lot of HP.

Also their "leash" range should be a lot shorter to the totems IMO, almost like they are protectors. People really shouldnt be able to pull them away to loot the bins.

Tesla
07-06-2012, 12:46 PM
I think they are gaining hp exponentially as they kill players just like some muntants were doing before they were turned off. Wish I could figure out that little trick for myself, hehe. This makes them way too powerful and I would guess not drop anything more special than the low hp revs. BTW, I haven't even been able to loot any of them. If the monster revs dropped something special, I would take the time to organize a group. If they just have the same loot as the rest of the pack, why bother. They may just kill me and get even stronger.

Like mentioned above, if they are tied to their home totem, I may have a chance to outrun a group of them. That hasn't worked so far as there is always more of them waiting around the bend. So if I manage to clear a few out to look through some bins, bam, there they are again in no time. Increase the respawn timer please.

New players are royaly screwed here. Would you consider opening up some of the map to offer those that choose to start there some relative safety?

Xsyon
07-06-2012, 02:14 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far.

The fast respawn of revenants is just for testing the system. The range of power is also set from lowest to highest and will be adjusted. I will do a new revenant 'first spawn' after making some adjustments.

Xsyon
07-06-2012, 08:27 PM
The Test Server is restarting and will be up at roughly 8:40 PM PST

These adjustments were made to Revenants:
- Base damage is much lower for unarmed attacks. Armed attacks will match human armed attacks + additional power based on times in combat.
- Strength of revenants ranges from 50 to 100 and this affects their attack power.
- Revenants stay closer to their haunted totem.
- Revenants respawn after 1 game day (They were set quick for testing).
- Bug with revenants not being lootable off their haunted land fixed.
- The time for corpses to vanish has been increased (This was reduced for testing).
- Power growth of revenants based on times in combat reduced.
- The starting power of revenants has been reduced (For testing they were set to a random factor between the lowest and absolute highest power).


Notes:
The amount of revenants at a totem increases over time until the totem is removed.
Bins can be opened only during the deserted phases, but can be taken in the abandoned phase and when totems are removed.
We are working on the issue with gates.

Please provide feedback as before. We will continue testing and balancing until next Wednesday.

Thanks!

Snakepit
07-07-2012, 02:59 AM
Did tested the revenants again. I think i am average player.
- i whas able to kill 2 revenants around 150 HP each. I run to the target hit and run a way. Around 7 hits to kill one of them.
- I have clothing armor suith that give around 20% damgae reduction. With clothing the revenants did around 2,6 damage unarmed
- When you attack one the others comming to help there revenants brother and i like that
- Range from the tribe ground is good
- Loot is nothing special good be better
- For me the revenants unarmed with 150 hp are to weak but i expect that there will be stronger revenants around. For new players i expect the still hard to kill
- I think there still need to be very strong revenants in some situations to stimulate teambuilding between player tribes.
- i worry a bid about the speed players will kill the revenants now they so weak. Is there a mechanism that will prevent this. I think revenants is a good thing for the game and i don't want to see it go away after some weeks.

MrDDT
07-07-2012, 03:05 AM
I'm not sure where you want zombies to be.

I would rather see more zombies doing low damage and low HP than than fewer zombies with more life and stronger attacks.

Also what do you expect these zombies to be a challenge for? Like how would you compare them to other animals?

Feedback on other aspects.
Zombies are not looting from baskets on the ground (at all) they are not looting from any type of storage container (canopies, pouches, bins, carts that are not on the player)
Zombies are looting 1 to 4 items off a player (only items they can wear) mostly 1 item. This to me should be much higher. I doubt zombies will be killing people often and they should be looting more when they do.
After looting a weapon their damage didnt increase much at all (unarmed to mod QL club, damage went from 1.5-2.5 to 1.7 to 2.7). (137HP zombie)
(Unarmed to Master Axe 3.5 avg damage to 4.5 avg damage) (206 HP zombie) I believe both of these were due to the increased STR on the armor it took. Also it could have been a change because of the missing armor I had.
After around 25 deaths to the same zombie, it did not gain any power (I understand that deaths doesnt make them grow stronger, however, 25 times in combat should have done something)
Zombies using armor were effected by the stats of that armor (Nice work) damage increased were wearing.
HP was not effected by putting on +FOR or +STR armor it took from me. I would assume that AGI doesnt effect its swing speed.

Attack range on zombies unarmed attack doesnt seem right, its pretty far.
Aggro range seems to be low, zombies of larger tribes cant even aggro people at the edge of that tribe range they spawned at, seems kinda odd.
Many times the zombie trying to kill me would get bored 60% through the fight and either just stand there or run off.

Azzym
07-07-2012, 05:36 AM
The Test Server is restarting and will be up at roughly 8:40 PM PST

These adjustments were made to Revenants:
- Base damage is much lower for unarmed attacks. Armed attacks will match human armed attacks + additional power based on times in combat.
- Strength of revenants ranges from 50 to 100 and this affects their attack power.

For me as a combat noob I find the damage a bit too low. They did 1,5 - 2,5 on leather (poor quality). Would like to see a bit more making the fight a little more challenging. The factor I don't know about is the additional power. Why not let base damage be around 3-4 + additional damage depending on times in combat of an additional 0 - 15 damage or so. A really weak zombie thus makes about 4 damage and a strong, experienced do like 19-20 damage. Perhaps that is not enough for the better geared players.


- Revenants stay closer to their haunted totem.
- Revenants respawn after 1 game day (They were set quick for testing).

Never got a chance to see if there were revenants roaming the land this time but I found that awesome. Roaming revenants were making ANY place unsecure. If you removed it I would beg you to add it again.
Range is a wee bit too small now. Would love to see them occupy a little larger area around the totem. Tribe area + 10m or so.
Respawn rate of once per game day is a suggestion for when it goes live? In that case it would be totally ok :)



- Bug with revenants not being lootable off their haunted land fixed.
- The time for corpses to vanish has been increased (This was reduced for testing).



Good!




Notes:
The amount of revenants at a totem increases over time until the totem is removed.
Bins can be opened only during the deserted phases, but can be taken in the abandoned phase and when totems are removed.
We are working on the issue with gates.

Not sure what the growth will look like in the end, but the nr of revenants right now is a bit low. If that number or revs will grow to something like the first test we did it would be ok though.
Revenants can not enter some open gates as well as walk through closed ones. The gate that just opens up like 45 degrees (dont remember the name) seemed to block them off completely. They are not able to enter chief tents either, which might be planned that way...dunno, but I like it.
Would love to see some seriously hard opposition around/in the larger abandoned tribes for groups of players to take on.

Keep up the good work, I really look forward to dodge revenants on the live server :)

taediumvitae
07-07-2012, 06:41 AM
Zombies are not looting from baskets on the ground (at all) they are not looting from any type of storage container (canopies, pouches, bins, carts that are not on the player)

Agree with DDT.
Its strage to find and kill naked Revs that have armor and weapons on their totem area.



Zombies are looting 1 to 4 items off a player (only items they can wear) mostly 1 item. This to me should be much higher. I doubt zombies will be killing people often and they should be looting more when they do.

I agree.



After looting a weapon their damage didnt increase much at all (unarmed to mod QL club, damage went from 1.5-2.5 to 1.7 to 2.7). (137HP zombie)
(Unarmed to Master Axe 3.5 avg damage to 4.5 avg damage) (206 HP zombie) I believe both of these were due to the increased STR on the armor it took. Also it could have been a change because of the missing armor I had.

Did similar tests with the same result.
Even Supreme weapons dont make much difference in Rev damage. (they dont use power swings at all)


After around 25 deaths to the same zombie, it did not gain any power (I understand that deaths doesnt make them grow stronger, however, 25 times in combat should have done something)

I Agree.


HP was not effected by putting on +FOR or +STR armor it took from me. I would assume that AGI doesnt effect its swing speed.

True.

Even giving Revs full sets of supreme bone armor didnt make them much tougher.
I think You should do with Revs the same thing You are doing with Bears.
Rev with Supreme Weapons and Armor should be as hard to kill as a Big Bear.
(they have much better loot than a bear)


Aggro range seems to be low, zombies of larger tribes cant even aggro people at the edge of that tribe range they spawned at, seems kinda odd.
Many times the zombie trying to kill me would get bored 60% through the fight and either just stand there or run off.

Sometimes all You need is make a few steps and they run away.

Aram

Added after 13 minutes:

There are a few things I forgot to add.

- Damage that naked Revs do right now is totally fine. (damage with weapons should be higher)

- Revs should prefer to loot a weapon first. It shouldnt be totally random. Im not saying always loot weapon first, just make it more often then a piece of armor.
Sometimes I had to die 10 times before Rev took my weapon.

MrDDT
07-07-2012, 07:27 AM
I'm not sure where you want zombies to be.

I would rather see more zombies doing low damage and low HP than than fewer zombies with more life and stronger attacks.

Also what do you expect these zombies to be a challenge for? Like how would you compare them to other animals?


The reason I ask this, is because of how the game is set up.

Older vets with combat skills will not be happy killing the same mobs that are "normal" for a new player. Yet you have zombies in the same area's as new players.

I dont see how balancing these for both types of players will ever work. Either one or the other will be happy, or neither. Not both.

So I ask, What do you expect zombies to be at?

I believe the way this needs to be done is change how the game works. Stronger mutants, animals, zombies away from the newer starting areas, or making even stronger monsters/mutants in areas where people know that they are very hard so advance players and tribes can go to have combat and fun.

Xsyon
07-07-2012, 09:29 AM
The goal with revenants is for them to range in power from that of a mid level player to being a challenge for high end players. Newbies in groups of 3 or 4 should be able to take down a normal revenant.

Last night I set up revenants to better match the player system, but if they are doing less damage with the same weapons and stats, something is not right, so I working on this now.

The current spawn is revenants from low to +25% power but with ranging strength. The number of spawns for the first 'haunting' will be increased.

I will post again after today's internal tests and revisions are done and Test Server is updated with another 'fresh spawn'.

Note: I'm shutting down the Test Server for a while as I found a few bugs with creature swing and attack power that were throwing things off balance. The Test Server will be back up in this afternoon.