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Xsyon
08-29-2012, 12:09 PM
Please provide any feedback on creature migration and balance from the current Test Server build here.

Creatures migrate to areas of appropriate danger.
Small creatures tend to low danger areas.
Mid sizes creatures (raccoons, pine martins, marmots) tend to mid danger areas.
Large creatures (bears, coyotes) tend to high danger areas.
Mutants and legendary creatures move to outer extreme danger areas.

You can see the danger level of an area in the map panel.

Revenants abandon low danger areas if they are killed and are not haunting a totem.
Revenants have a change of abandoning mid danger areas if they are killed and not haunting a totem.

Creature stats have been adjusted primarily to make small creatures easier.

Thanks!

Willowhawk
08-29-2012, 03:08 PM
Creatures migrate to areas of appropriate danger.
Small creatures tend to low danger areas.
Mid sizes creatures (raccoons, pine martins, marmots) tend to mid danger areas.
Large creatures (bears, coyotes) tend to high danger areas.

I will try the test server when I get home tonight but I have a question as I might be reading this wrong. Will small creature be found in "all zones" and not just in the low danger zones? Just as Medium size creatures would be found in the mid and high level zones but not (or rarely) in low level zones? If someone can clarify this it will help to know what to look for. Thanks

Xsyon
08-29-2012, 11:38 PM
There is a bit of overlap between zones. Also creatures do not migrate away from the extreme danger zones as this is where they can wander into the mist and return as mutants.

You should see small creatures mostly in the low danger zones with some in medium danger, none in high danger and some in extreme danger zones.

ethain
08-30-2012, 10:25 AM
From a new player I'm impressed with how quick the dev team patches issues considering how small your team is. Also I've had great support from GMs ingame with any issues I've had. Players have been having alot of problems with mobs being to tough so its great to a see a patch in already. Hopefully few bugs. Great work so far!!

Willowhawk
08-30-2012, 03:42 PM
I couldn't log in last night so I logged in to test before work for about an hour and a half. This is my take.

I ran around our area in 696 a bit hoping to see some critters but nothing. So I'm assuming (hoping) it will just take some time for animals to actually migrate to areas that don't have any creatures. I decided to travel north along the green line up to 815. Nothing along the way until 815 (which is as it was before) There I ran into a mutant shadow Deer. This being an extreme danger area I tried my luck but he was very tough so I had to run. I was able to evade him so that all seems good so far.

I then headed east through 816 toward the lake and ran into a 90 hp rabbit in the High danger area. I was glad to see this since it wouldn't seem right to not see squirrels and Rabbits in the mountains. He was fairly easy to take however I noticed he was doing 4 hits to my one hit yet it didn't look like he was actually hitting that many times but that's what the combat log said. I suppose this is due to me using my power swing. He was also doing around 4.75 dmg and manage to do more damage than I would have expected for a rabbit against someone with high level bone armor, but it was a high danger area so all good.

I headed East again and saw a 220hp Bear. Good so far. I passed on him and continued on to the lake and the low danger level zones. There were of course tons of mutants, but it was the swarms of small animals that I had trouble with. One on one they are all easy to kill however I then walked up on 10 Squirrels. Some around 62hps some as high as 120hps. While checking their HPs a Hamster attacked me :p. So while I killed him another Hamster joined in, then a Rat, then more rats etc lol. So I managed to kill a few but had to run again. This same scenario repeated just a ways further down the beach but with Rabbits this time.

This is my take so far...
Unless this needs time to evolve a bit with the animals migrating away from the lake, the lake area stills seems too difficult for new players. Hamsters being aggressive is probably a bad idea and these swarms of animals makes the lake area almost as dangerous as the high danger areas aside from their lower agro.

If there were a way to separate animals from the packs, or if only a couple animals would group together in the low level zones I think it would make a more balance fight for new players. However I wouldn't want that to change for the higher level areas as this makes for a great challenge and we have a lot of fun trying to fight these packs of animals.

Also my understanding is that small animals can grow to 150hps and they seem to start around what 50hps? I'm not sure since I never see anything under around 60hps anymore. I think it would be better if the small animals started much lower, as low as around 20hps or so and could not grow over something like 50hps while still in the low danger areas. Some players start with as little as 35 hps so why have critter in large numbers with much larger hps in a starter area?

That was a short trip so I will try test again tonight and update this if necessary.

Riverspirit
08-30-2012, 07:14 PM
Please provide any feedback on creature migration and balance from the current Test Server build here.

Creatures migrate to areas of appropriate danger.
Small creatures tend to low danger areas.
Mid sizes creatures (raccoons, pine martins, marmots) tend to mid danger areas.
Large creatures (bears, coyotes) tend to high danger areas.
Mutants and legendary creatures move to outer extreme danger areas.

You can see the danger level of an area in the map panel.

Revenants abandon low danger areas if they are killed and are not haunting a totem.
Revenants have a change of abandoning mid danger areas if they are killed and not haunting a totem.

Creature stats have been adjusted primarily to make small creatures easier.

Thanks!

We need a balance of creatures in this game like we used to have. We still have 90 hp hamsters which is ludicrous, especially when 8 of them attack you. Where are the 110 hp bears? I would like to see little easy creatures in the new player areas, but also in our area. I don't like having the map divided into all these zones at all. I would like to go hunting and be able to kill little animals, and medium animals, and still have to watch out for the large animals or mutants that you need a group for. It was way more fun when you didn't really know what to expect, but there were plenty of manageable animals you could take on hunting solo.

I think the animals still have way too much reach. They shouldn't be able to hit me from 3 meters or more away. They also seem to still be doing damage multiple times with each hit.

I just want a nice balance. It used to be almost perfect, as far as the hp distribution and the reach and the damage. I could find creatures of all sizes. It made it fun to go hunting. There were mutants and 25hp squirrels and 80hp deer so everyone could have fun. I don't want to have to gather a group to go hunting, but if I have a group, I want to be able to find a challenge. I don't want to know what zones those creatures are in, or might be in. That is why it is called hunting...

Small creatures should never get over 50 hp, and have plenty of 20-30 hp little guys for new players to practice on. A 200 hp cat is just insane. Even a big kitty should be easy to take. Lets get some balance back and stop listening only to the players that whine the loudest.

Just my opinion. Thanks for listening. :)

GuideMihr
08-31-2012, 03:33 AM
Hello,

YOu can't judge the creatures by the hp only. The base damage for all creatures has been revised lowering them quite a lot. So for example you can find a 50 hp chicken that before had 25 hp but the fight is more balanced now ,meaning a noob with 47 hp in clothes can have fun fighting it,so some creatures can have more hp but we lowered hp and damage in others, one by one based on real fights vs different level toons from noob to vet to have a good balance. The new danger zones is not based in hp.

We announced to test changes in test server and we had some help from noob players that tested all the range creaturesfrom the smallest creatures 1 vs 1 in clothes and armor until large hard creatures hunting in group and everything looked well balanced. About pack attack we are going to find a solution.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

KeithStone
08-31-2012, 06:01 AM
We need a balance of creatures in this game like we used to have. We still have 90 hp hamsters which is ludicrous, especially when 8 of them attack you. Where are the 110 hp bears? I would like to see little easy creatures in the new player areas, but also in our area. I don't like having the map divided into all these zones at all. I would like to go hunting and be able to kill little animals, and medium animals, and still have to watch out for the large animals or mutants that you need a group for. It was way more fun when you didn't really know what to expect, but there were plenty of manageable animals you could take on hunting solo.

I think the animals still have way too much reach. They shouldn't be able to hit me from 3 meters or more away. They also seem to still be doing damage multiple times with each hit.

I just want a nice balance. It used to be almost perfect, as far as the hp distribution and the reach and the damage. I could find creatures of all sizes. It made it fun to go hunting. There were mutants and 25hp squirrels and 80hp deer so everyone could have fun. I don't want to have to gather a group to go hunting, but if I have a group, I want to be able to find a challenge. I don't want to know what zones those creatures are in, or might be in. That is why it is called hunting...

Small creatures should never get over 50 hp, and have plenty of 20-30 hp little guys for new players to practice on. A 200 hp cat is just insane. Even a big kitty should be easy to take. Lets get some balance back and stop listening only to the players that whine the loudest.

Just my opinion. Thanks for listening. :)

once the server is populated with people again after they start their advertising you won't know where the pk's are, they'll be everywhere!

One of the things that games like this need are pvp hot spots, those that want to farm specific animals will know where to go and those that want to farm players will also know where to go. (this creates the pvp hot spots)

The game is pretty much on easy mode right now, everyone is "playing nice" - if we get a decent amount of players again like we had at launch there will be tons of action around every corner.

Riverspirit
09-01-2012, 07:28 AM
Hello,

YOu can't judge the creatures by the hp only. The base damage for all creatures has been revised lowering them quite a lot. So for example you can find a 50 hp chicken that before had 25 hp but the fight is more balanced now ,meaning a noob with 47 hp in clothes can have fun fighting it,so some creatures can have more hp but we lowered hp and damage in others, one by one based on real fights vs different level toons from noob to vet to have a good balance. The new danger zones is not based in hp.

We announced to test changes in test server and we had some help from noob players that tested all the range creaturesfrom the smallest creatures 1 vs 1 in clothes and armor until large hard creatures hunting in group and everything looked well balanced. About pack attack we are going to find a solution.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

I also gathered feedback from my tribe members. They say animals seem to be hitting harder, still too fast, and still too much reach. None of us are finding these "balanced" creatures, so they must be hiding? We have at least 7 active players, and we would all like to be able to hunt solo and kill something besides revs. So on the test server you were spawning animals that were comparable to player capabilities, but we aren't finding them. My tribe members report creatures that hit for over 40. You can't kite them anymore because they have too much reach. It is much more fun if people can go hunting solo and actually take some creatures solo. Two or three players should be able to take a 300hp bear. Two players used to be able to take a 600hp bear if they were careful. It was fun then.

And we all agree that nobody really cares how many revs are in a zone! We think that should be removed from the zone warning, or just remove the zone warning all together. It is not helpful. But the rev count is just annoying.

I am sure you had good intentions, and as long as you were spawning the creatures on command it was all fine. Now we would like a nice balance of creatures that don't hit us twice for our every hit. Leveling hunting takes an insane amount of killing and skinning, so give us something that we can kill and skin.

We just want to be able to hunt solo again.

And PVP hotspots? Who cares? Most people don't play this game for the pvp, since this game really is not about pvp (to me anyway), it just includes pvp. I love all the dimensions of this game, the crafting and tribe community and the creativity that can be expressed in building. I used to love wandering the world with my little cart and hunting and scavanging. There was always the danger that I would die, and I died pretty often, but at least I could hold my own most of the time. This game is meditative to me, it is relaxing. It helps me decompress. We have a tribe with awesome tribe members from all around the globe and we all help each other. That is what I love about this game. This is just my opinion, but please take it into account.

Deacon
09-01-2012, 09:41 AM
I'm getting extreme lag when I engage in combat against Revenants. Sativa, Truth_seeker, and I all experience this last night. So bad, it cost us some real good armor.

No matter how hard I try, I cant hit an NPC until it actually turns and hit me. I can sprint up behind it and try several times...but nothing registers, until they turn and hit me. I'm getting hit 3 -5 times, some times more, per my hit against them. Like they hit in rapid succession. My swing charge isnt charging when they do this. I'm not sure if this is related to the lag or not.

I'm pretty much in agreement with riverspirit in reguards to hunt-ability. I dont want things to be easy, I like a challenge, but it's no longer even a chance, unless I hunt some small creature not worth skinning.

Willowhawk
09-01-2012, 10:34 AM
No matter how hard I try, I cant hit an NPC until it actually turns and hit me. I can sprint up behind it and try several times...but nothing registers, until they turn and hit me.

I see this all the time. I'm sure in some cases it is decync from internet lag however what appears to happen is combat isn't initiated until you swing. Then the mob turns and hits you. It almost appears like a combat trigger. So I never get the first hit in even if I run full speed up behind a mob smack him in the back. That should be a big hit but nothing. This takes away the advantage of getting the first swing in (especially a back attack).

And I agree with River on this,

It used to be almost perfect, as far as the hp distribution and the reach and the damage. I could find creatures of all sizes. It made it fun to go hunting. There were mutants and 25hp squirrels and 80hp deer so everyone could have fun. I don't want to have to gather a group to go hunting, but if I have a group, I want to be able to find a challenge. I don't want to know what zones those creatures are in, or might be in. That is why it is called hunting...

Small creatures should never get over 50 hp, and have plenty of 20-30 hp little guys for new players to practice on. A 200 hp cat is just insane. Even a big kitty should be easy to take. Lets get some balance back and stop listening only to the players that whine the loudest.

Just my opinion. Thanks for listening. :)

This whole migration thing seems like a complete over kill in my opinion. What I would have liked to see is to simply create a low level zone around the lake and keep the animals there at a level that new players can handle with a bit of overlap (There needs to be an occasional scare to keep things exciting). The rest of the world should be as natural as possible. There should be small young animals, medium animals and large very dangerous mutant animals. Just how it was around 3 or so months back. If the animals had not been wiped out at that time it was a great system for all experience levels. Sadly a few people chose to clear the map, then demand everything change and this is what we have now.

And lastly I thought the zone information was just for the test server. I was surprised to see it in game. I think it totally takes away from the realism and is honestly just annoying. All anyone needs to do is to go out and explore a bit. If you see scary creatures then run away and head back toward the lake. :p But a revenant count? I really see no purpose in this at all.

Riverspirit
09-01-2012, 10:55 AM
This whole migration thing seems like a complete over kill in my opinion. What I would have liked to see is to simply create a low level zone around the lake and keep the animals there at a level that new players can handle with a bit of overlap (There needs to be an occasional scare to keep things exciting). The rest of the world should be as natural as possible. There should be small young animals, medium animals and large very dangerous mutant animals. Just how it was around 3 or so months back. If the animals had not been wiped out at that time it was a great system for all experience levels. Sadly a few people chose to clear the map, then demand everything change and this is what we have now.

And lastly I thought the zone information was just for the test server. I was surprised to see it in game. I think it totally takes away from the realism and is honestly just annoying. All anyone needs to do is to go out and explore a bit. If you see scary creatures then run away and head back toward the lake. :p But a revenant count? I really see no purpose in this at all.

I agree, we just needed easy animals in the new player areas. Not this whole migration thing with increasing hp toward the green. That is just silly. There should be all types of animals all over, except in the new player areas, just give them the easy stuff to deal with at first. But if they want to wander, they take their chances.

And thanks for playing Mihr, it was fun to kill all that stuff. Now put some of those creatures where I can find them.. or they can find me. And definitely let us have all types of animals in our zone, including the nasty ones. :cool:

KeithStone
09-01-2012, 03:13 PM
a revenant count? I really see no purpose in this at all.

agreed, the count doesn't need to be there and we don't need to see the message popup on screen when crossing over these regions either. Also, I don't even think players need to know where the region boundries are, some things should just be left up to exploration and mystery.

Xsyon
09-01-2012, 05:46 PM
Hello everyone,

I am getting a lot of conflicting feedback on this. If you feel that creatures are too difficult now, please contact GuideMihr via PM and set a time to assist with testing on the test server. The only way we are going to balance things correctly is with your direct assistance.

I will note a few things:

- Range was not increased with this patch. It has never been increased, only reduced. If you are getting hit out of range, we need more information so it can be reproduced. (Please PM GuideMihr if you can regularly reproduce this).

- The revenant count display is temporary and for our tests only. It's there right now just to ensure that the changes we made to revenants are correct. Everything is checking out, so this will be removed with the next small patch.

- We'll look into the other reported issues. These are not things that we changed with this patch. We simply adjusted creature strength, damage, armor and life variables.

- The migration system does allow for overlap between regions and some creatures to move around the world. This first patch ran a one time movement to migrate most creatures to the nearest zones, but migration over time will be slower.

unclean666
09-02-2012, 04:56 AM
As far as how tough or weak everything is it seems about right to me as far as ago and type range also seems to be lowed so other then that it seems fine as well.Only thing I have noticed really wrong so far is that ive had a few animals walk though walls but it may have been because it was on built up dirt.

Note I am useing a combat geared vet toon.

Axechucker
09-03-2012, 05:25 AM
Few things:

1) I've been noticing The animals are running in packs. Makes it a bit rough to kill just 1 when all of them attack you. I talked to Mihr about this , I'm just making a note here.

2) In 1016 there are a pack of 5 spinetip ridgemartins that seem to stack. I walked up on them the other day ( I knew they were in the area I simply just didn't see them this time) by accident and notice there was just 1. When I got closer they started running off and when they did they split into 4. They still stayed in a pack when they ran.

3)I was out hunting in a low area and got killed by a rat that hit me 7 times and I didnt even get a shot in. I'm a bit of a newb and I was wearing no armor. Mihr had messaged me ( he must had seen my frustration over world chat LOL) and we talked about that rat and it turns out he was age 12. Not something that needs to be in a low area.

MrDDT
09-03-2012, 05:37 AM
And PVP hotspots? Who cares? Most people don't play this game for the pvp, since this game really is not about pvp (to me anyway), it just includes pvp. I love all the dimensions of this game, the crafting and tribe community and the creativity that can be expressed in building. I used to love wandering the world with my little cart and hunting and scavanging. There was always the danger that I would die, and I died pretty often, but at least I could hold my own most of the time. This game is meditative to me, it is relaxing. It helps me decompress. We have a tribe with awesome tribe members from all around the globe and we all help each other. That is what I love about this game. This is just my opinion, but please take it into account.

Most people dont play this game. Is more correct.

There were tons of PVPers, saying "who cares" to that group players is like saying "who cares" to people that like to craft.


On topic, I think that the starting animals are still a bit too strong, mostly due the packs and how hard they hit/fast attack/hp.

Larger animals are still very hard with no healing and require players to use tactics that can still make fights really easy if you use those tactics to not get hit at all. Biggest issue is HP regen, lack of attack options and lack of Energy regen in combat options. This works both ways.
So Larger Animals = Easy because of tactics, but still very hard without using these tactics.

tomduril
09-03-2012, 08:29 AM
I love the idea with the zones - I hope that the new system is flexible enough to try out different things with it.

On a personal note: I am currently involved in a big architecture project. So alot of terraforming mostly. The place is already in the "mid danger zone" - well yesterday (sunday) - I stopped playing 3 times after beeing killed by a pine martin (it stuck to the place I was terraforming). I tried to fight it - but only managed to get it to 90% of its HP at the time I was dead. So I just logged off and watched a movie - to try again later...

At the building site I also saw a pack of 10 rabbits - moving at an incredibly speed right trough my terraforming area. Even if I had wished to attack one - they are way to fast to hit ... and they can climb any slope, while I would be stuck at some point.

Well in conclusion:
The packing behavior is just annoying - I can not fight 10 rabbits at once (3 would probably be ok) - Its not like the "injured one" will be slower and the rest will just run off ... no - if I attack 1 rabbit - 9 others jump on me and nibble me to death (normally takes about 5 seconds).

Not sure what to do about that - I am currently thinking about building a "building fence" to keep the animals out so that I can build in peace ...

Willowhawk
09-03-2012, 10:55 AM
On the last few hunting trips we have done I was able to screen shot several multi hit attacks from Animals. Sometimes it's only a few hits other times it can be as much as 10 hits resulting in damages of 100+ to players. The first screen shot was last night against a regular Bear. I was running at the Bear head on took one swing that did 11.32 Dmg and the bear took one swing that did 127 Dmg which finished me.

The other thing that is happening is animals are healing at over twice our healing rate. I know we were told that healing rate for creatures is the same as players, but that is not so. At least not with all animals across the board. I timed healing last night using a 245hp bear which healed from about 1/3 health to full health while I only healed from 1/4 to 1/2. Healing is still painfully slow and not the same for creatures and players.

I'm guessing the extremely slow player heal rate is in anticipation of future healing buffs, foods etc. That is a guess only but when animals still heal about 60% faster it makes it even more painful to sit and watch them heal up while you sit for another 5 minutes waiting.

What I did notice last night is an inconstancy in animal strength. We fought a Shadow Bear that was hitting for 7 to 8 Dmg and it went down so fast I was disappointed, then we fought a regular Bear that was doing 20+ Dmg and we had to kite it for a long time to take him down.

So I am wondering, if the new adjustments to animal strength only effected the new animal spawns and not the old animals. Something doesn't add up, and that is all I can think to explain the huge discrepancy.

Screenshot Upload problems
I had more to add but the screen shot uploader is totally messed up and I've spent too much time on this already. I'm not getting any preview so I hope they show. The dialogue box doesn't go away when you hit OK to accept the image so you have to force close it.
WOW this is a train wreck. I thought I would try uploading the actual file along with using the image links, but after you choose the file, you don't even get a confirm or OK button, just a blank window with your file description. I keep trying and getting different results each time. :( Not liking any of this. Same dialogue box for direct link but if I spam click the OK button it posts a preview in the text box but shows it as a link in the preview window. So now I have two different links but no screenshot.

The Screen shots are suppose to show the spam damage of 108dmg in the first screen, 118 in the second and 127dmg in the third. Please change this back to the old upload system. That one didn't work well but at least it worked.
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Willowhawk
09-04-2012, 01:22 PM
It looks like animal migration is working. We are starting to see bears and we had the first Coyote we have seen in our area in months early this morning. :) Mutant sightings also seem to be increasing.

GuideMihr
09-04-2012, 04:17 PM
Hello,thanks for the feedback


On the last few hunting trips we have done I was able to screen shot several multi hit attacks from Animals. Sometimes it's only a few hits other times it can be as much as 10 hits resulting in damages of 100+ to players. The first screen shot was last night against a regular Bear. I was running at the Bear head on took one swing that did 11.32 Dmg and the bear took one swing that did 127 Dmg which finished me.


The other thing that is happening is animals are healing at over twice our healing rate. I know we were told that healing rate for creatures is the same as players, but that is not so. At least not with all animals across the board. I timed healing last night using a 245hp bear which healed from about 1/3 health to full health while I only healed from 1/4 to 1/2. Healing is still painfully slow and not the same for creatures and players.

Well the regeneration rate is a % of your hp, at it has the same for players and creatures.


I'm guessing the extremely slow player heal rate is in anticipation of future healing buffs, foods etc. That is a guess only but when animals still heal about 60% faster it makes it even more painful to sit and watch them heal up while you sit for another 5 minutes waiting.

Yes healing buffs will help for players with high hp.


What I did notice last night is an inconstancy in animal strength. We fought a Shadow Bear that was hitting for 7 to 8 Dmg and it went down so fast I was disappointed, then we fought a regular Bear that was doing 20+ Dmg and we had to kite it for a long time to take him down.

You might have found a young Shadow bear hitting those 7 Dmg, and the BEar might be a max Bear age 12 or even with legend factor.


So I am wondering, if the new adjustments to animal strength only effected the new animal spawns and not the old animals. Something doesn't add up, and that is all I can think to explain the huge discrepancy.

All animals are affected by the patch changes



Screenshot Upload problems

I had more to add but the screen shot uploader is totally messed up and I've spent too much time on this already. I'm not getting any preview so I hope they show. The dialogue box doesn't go away when you hit OK to accept the image so you have to force close it.
WOW this is a train wreck. I thought I would try uploading the actual file along with using the image links, but after you choose the file, you don't even get a confirm or OK button, just a blank window with your file description. I keep trying and getting different results each time. :( Not liking any of this. Same dialogue box for direct link but if I spam click the OK button it posts a preview in the text box but shows it as a link in the preview window. So now I have two different links but no screenshot.

Go advanced /mange attachements should work now.

The Screen shots are suppose to show the spam damage of 108dmg in the first screen, 118 in the second and 127dmg in the third. Please change this back to the old upload system. That one didn't work well but at least it worked.
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