Feedback Request 01/13/2013 - Trade Totems

[Xsyon]

Trade at the main totem is set up on the Test Server.

Please provide any feedback or bugs with the system here.

Recent changes in testing:

- separate totems for Trade and Quests that can be placed anywhere on tribe land
- sorting of items in the trade panel
- scrollbar on items in the trade panel
- message on sale completion
- 6 potential currency items. These won't be used in crafting schemes.
- quality and durability removed from currency items
- items for sale lost when a player deletes a character or leaves a tribe.


The system is not yet finished. The following changes are still in progress:

- confirmation dialog for sales transactions
- warning to remove items from the totem if a player is leaving a tribe
- allowing players to see items for sale at nearby or allied tribes

The Test Server database was wiped to assist with testing other changes and to facilitate restarting the Test Server often. Guides will be able after the next maintenance to assist with procuring currency to help test trade functionality and can be reached on the main server through the help channel if they are available (/h at the chat prompt).

01/15/2013

The Test Server will be down for most of the day as I work on the items listed above.

Regarding currency items: I plan to remove useful items (such as nails that can be found consisting of different materials) from the potential currency list. Currency only items will not have quality or durability in order to facilitate the stacking, storage and exchange of currency.

01/23/2013

I'm considering ways to make a more communal market place. One way would be to allow a tribe to place a trade totem on an allied tribe's land. Another is to allow tribes to place an additional trade totem on Founder's Isle. There are potential problems with both of these that I need to consider.

Regarding selling sets of objects like a full set of armor: I've noted this but don't expect to have this for the first implementation of Trade Totems. It would require a lot of changes to the current systems.

[MrDDT]

"- quality and durability removed from currency items"

Not sure what this means, but currently when you buy something it will take any quality, or dura, with no choices by the seller to pick them.
Also it removes all type of stats from it. "Iron Screws" become "Screws", along with changing the quality to supreme every time.

[MrDDT]

Anyway we can see what other trade totems have up for sale by looking at our own trade totem?

[KeithStone]

Jordi, check your email please I sent you something. thanks (I used the contact us email)

[unclean666]

A couple of things I think are very important that the trade totem needs to be used and improve the economy the way it should.

We need to be able to see what other trade totems have up for sell for two reasons 1.travel is slow and like i the quest sys a lot of people will not run around the map hoping to find a trade totem and by chance have the items there looking for if thats what we will have to do we might as well just keep asking in globle still.
2.Because you seem to be taking nails out as a currency we would have to use something else as the new currency.What does that mean? It means we will have to work out EVERYTHING in the game with new prices for the new currency as the rates will not be the same as nails was.If we cant see what everyone else is selling on avg then prices will take forever for everyone to be on the same page and not have this guy selling item A for 10k and the other for 1k because they dont know the avg selling price.
Having it show the location of the totem your looking at would also help.

A way to sell FULL armor set and not just have to put them in one part at a time.If someones looking for a full set it will be a pain to get it because someone could come along and buy just a few parts.Then we would have to replace those parts all the time making it a pain to keep up with what part and replacing random ones ect.

Last I would like to be able to put more then one type of currency that we accept.Right now most will take nails or screws I think it should be the same for the totems.

Thanks.

[cowbell]

Money can be found by anyone, takes a while to accumulate, and is easy to use. Suppose I want to sell nails? If a nail or screw is considered currency what do I charge for them?

Stick with cash IMO

[MrDDT]

Money can be found by anyone, takes a while to accumulate, and is easy to use. Suppose I want to sell nails? If a nail or screw is considered currency what do I charge for them?

Stick with cash IMO

You charge the items you want. They are "cash" what do you do with cash in real life? You buy the items or services you want. What you just said is very easy to understand what to do with it.

Money also can be found by anyone however, my problem is it gives scav (the people with the skill) a much better standing and makes it very powerful.

[Romkak]

As i suggested at the Tribe Leader Metting where the trade totems was brought up i still think that some sort of marketplace would suite the trade totems perfectly. Such a marketplace would centralize all trade totems and general trading. In that way you could compare price easily and people would not have to run across the map to discover what each tribe has for sale. Further more this totem should be remotely access by a "sister" totem at your tribe to restock. So that its easy to keep it up to date with items and prices.

The ingame Money (dollars, quarters and pennies) would make a really bad currency since they never leave the game. The inflation rate would be horrible if everyone just kept them instead of tossing them when found. But as Unclean said we will need more currencies. But i recon it should be common used items, in order to ensure the day to day quantities of the given item in the game.

[alexandraepureanu]

First a short comment to what Romkak said: Actually any currency would leave the game when people quit the game; yes it would probably be an inflation, but I doubt then more then in any other MMOs (yes there you have <repair cost> and a few other things, but also you get money from <quests>); pretty much I think things will be in a balance - a slow inflation, but nothing to kill the economy.

About the question itself:
1. I think there shouldn't be a standardized currency, but we should continue to go with the system we have in place now. On a tribe settings page one can choose the currency from a list of (I think) like 10 currencies, including nails, pennies, etc. I think the same thing should be here - you select one item you sell and the price you ask for it in any currency you desire from the listed ones. So I may charge nails, while someone else may charge dollar bills.
2. I think there should be a way to see all offers in game without travelling, but I'm totally against of being able to buy an item from your totem like from an Auction House. So have the possibility to see all offers, eventually "reserve" an item (pay), but if you want the item you have to actually do the effort and travel to that tribe's totem to get it. Otherwise, there is really a huge risk that a vast majority of players will never leave there zone any more and we'll have a lot of abandoned zones.
3. I think there should be a restriction about number of transactions you can make per day, because otherwise, with such a small community as ours, it would be really easy for just two or three players (with enough saved money and enough time to waste) to totally control and regulate the market, giving no option for other players to get a deal from it.
4. I think you should also have the option to automatically restock - for example I have 10 blue prints of one kind and decide to sell them for 500 nails each, I should be able to specify this and then I'll can have 10 customers without any intervention from my part.
5. I totally agree with the previous mentioned thing that one should be able to sell full armor sets.

[Drevar]

Aren't buttons required in a couple of tailoring items?

[tomduril]

Yes, buttons are required in a number of tailoring items.

[OrlandoKev]

I dont like posting in forums but this topic is one i really want to voice my opinion on.

1) I believe removing what the community has basically chose as the most common form of currency (nails) as a currency option is a horrible idea for various reasons.
a) community already chose nails as the best option, community already has general ideas of selling price range on everything in reference to nails, they did this because it was best choice due to drop rates and usages of such balanced out more than any other choices. A great feature is being added to the game but using dollars/quarters/pennies/bottlecaps etc as the only choices for currency will only result in the great feature basically being useless and not used by the majority of players, i want to use it but i wont, because i know when i want to buy something, its gonna have to be the same way as always, in global chat and seller is going to want nails in majority of situations, so of course that's what i want to sell my products for and wont be able to do so at the trade totem, not to mention that i want nails because i actually have a need for them for construction, various grinding etc. Even if someone spent tons of time trying to come up with some sort of standard price range for dollars/bottlecaps by time they did, values would have already changed dramtically due to more and more being collected every day and they dont leave the game, so todays price would be 10k dollars for a stack of grass twine, in 6 weeks price would be up to 50k, in 6 months 250k, it would be ridiculous with no end in sight. And having only currencies that have only a incoming flow (from scavenging) and no outgoing flow (from game) is that much worse when its being tosseed around to have 5 or 6 items of the same concept to be only forms of currency for trade totems.

1) I do not agree with a centralized marketplace unless the sellers have to haul the products there and set them up for sale, with the risk of getting jumped/looted on the way and only the actual market place space would be "safe" like our tribe lands are. I can only assume others agree, but one of the things that make this game great is that it isnt made to be "easy" to play and instant gratification like all the other games have become in order to appeal to the masses, here in Xyson when u accomplish something, it actually means something because you worked your ass off to accomplish it Game is a apocalypse setting and is about survival, a centralized marketplace just wouldnt make sense so that players can easily do one stop shopping/price comparisons etc etc. setting up basically a mall to go shopping at? bleh..


I could go on and on of how bad a idea i believe it is regarding the currency options for trade totems, but will shut up now and hope i at least made some kind of valid points. Trade Totems - Awesome Feature, discussed options for currency on trade totem completely negates it, so end result "nothing" is accomplished and time would have been better spent waiting for / developing a different feature. (or fixing/polishing the existing product instead of concentrating on new features, buts thats a whole other topic but since i said it, one quick sentence on topic. New features may appease a small group of pre-existing players, but fixing/polishing existing product will increase player retention of the incoming player base in much greater numbers.)

Edit: I am making a assumption here, but if nails were removed due to he complications of metal types/qualities, then how about just strip down nails used for payment to a basic "nail", since bulk of nail usage is on construction and grinding, wouldn't be a big problem.

[Azzym]

I dont like posting in forums but this topic is one i really want to voice my opinion on.


1) I do not agree with a centralized marketplace unless the sellers have to haul the products there and set them up for sale, with the risk of getting jumped/looted on the way and only the actual market place space would be "safe" like our tribe lands are. I can only assume others agree, but one of the things that make this game great is that it isnt made to be "easy" to play and instant gratification like all the other games have become in order to appeal to the masses, here in Xyson when u accomplish something, it actually means something because you worked your ass off to accomplish it Game is a apocalypse setting and is about survival, a centralized marketplace just wouldnt make sense so that players can easily do one stop shopping/price comparisons etc etc. setting up basically a mall to go shopping at? bleh..

I do not agree to this. Since the beginning man have been trading on all levels. To ease trades its natural it centralizes. You bring your surplus goods to a market and try to trade/sell it in favor of what you can't produce yourself. In a game like this, with the low population it has, it is really not a possible solution. Players are spread across all continents and can't all be on that market at the same time so a "mall" like solution might be what is needed to get the trade going. I would support a system where you can browse/negotiate the prices and items for sale centrally instead of trying to find all the tribes and their trade totems by running around the world.


New features may appease a small group of pre-existing players, but fixing/polishing existing product will increase player retention of the incoming player base in much greater numbers.)
New features do not only appease pre-existing players. Many new players usually start out asking if ranged combat is in the game? Hmm, what about cooking? Can you re-plant grass? And so on. However I do agree with you it is really important that the current game build is as polished and flawless as it possibly can be. To me that is not the case, Im still plagued by the same texture bugs and unexplainable logon problems I've had for the last 8-9 months or even longer. Adding a trade system where Im forced to run around alot will only increase the number of occasions my client crashes. I have been looking forward to the cooking skill for a year and had to drop the expectations to ever see it. I settled on the new crafting patch and started subbing aging in sept/oct when it looked like it was around the corner. I have once again cancelled my subs in january after it looks like not even that one will make it to the live server. If the game had been less buggy to me I could have awaited more content while playing but not as it is right now.


Edit: I am making a assumption here, but if nails were removed due to he complications of metal types/qualities, then how about just strip down nails used for payment to a basic "nail", since bulk of nail usage is on construction and grinding, wouldn't be a big problem.
I agree, removing nails is not a good decision. They barely make it as a currency today, replacing them with dollar bills, coins or something else that isn't drained out of the system is not going to solve anything - only make it worse. Unless, ofc, a drain for the proposed currency is also introduced at the same time. Totem upkeep paid in dollar bills would work. Can always claim its a sacrifice to tribe spirits or whatever...

[RosenBlod]

It's my opinion that any feature forced on a sandbox game community is an act of removing sand from the box.

Xsyon - when it comes to community - is a simulation, and what needs improvement or implementation should be obvious by observing the community. If this is not obvious, then either the community is too diverse in opinion to give enough attention to propper issues, or the observer is clouded by their own ideas and interests.

By removing nails as a currency option from trade totems, you'd physically force a value on things. Imo, the choice to give value should lie only with the community of paying members, whom makes the day-to-day living in Xsyon.
If anything, more than 1 currency should be allowed to be used as payment at any trade totem, like nails for this, screws for that, and 1 fish for that stack of granite I need (ofcourse, most of the community would stick to a currency they recognize).


(Simply put: I wish for nails to stay as a currency option for trade totems).

[Trihnket]

I think this is getting a blown a bit out of proportion. I say make the currency on the trade totems whatever you like, I don't have any shortage of any item in the game, and anything I need I can find or trade with or without trade totems. It's my guess that the people doing all the complaining are ones sitting on a big pile of nails with nothing to do, terrified of losing their 'fortune'. This game doesn't even need currency IMO, it only helps hoarders who aren't even playing the game anyway. Don't be so afraid of change, just go with it :P

[Romkak]

Am i the only one who would love to see someone within the Xsyon dev team to make a statement about this soon or even just a comment?. The discussion about the currency changes have been going on for a couple of weeks now. Starting with the tribe leader counsil right after newyears. And still noone have taken the time to answer anything! We keep stating our oppinion on the subject, but it seems to me that we are talking before deaf ears or!? So many daily users (including veterans of the game) have clearly states there oppinion and yet there is no response.

[Trevor]

I personally cannot see what all the fuss is over either (like Trihnket).

I don't think any of us are being forced to do things one way or another. Players can keep on trading between themselves with their precious nails. It really isn't that big of a deal.

[Romkak]

Trevor the big deal is, that the dev team has put alot of efford and time into making a trade totem that is a good idea, but as it is now it wont be used. Resulting in a lot of wasted time that could have been spent on things that matters. But if the trade totem is just implemented in the game, with the option of using the current currencies it would be a good asset to the game instead of wasted time from devs.

Unless theres is a usefull effective solution to the inflation problem, the current ingame commerce should not be tempered with!

[Trevor]

Why won't it be used, because you and half a dozen other players say don't like the fact nails are not going to be used?

I'm sorry, but there are more people in Xsyon other than those you see voicing every thought that crosses their mind in global.

Amazing how everyone is an expert though...

[Romkak]

If you have any kind of idea how an economy works you will see that dollar bills and beertabs etc. wont work as currency. Unless they also change the fact that these materials do not leave the game ever.

[MrDDT]

Why won't it be used, because you and half a dozen other players say don't like the fact nails are not going to be used?

I'm sorry, but there are more people in Xsyon other than those you see voicing every thought that crosses their mind in global.

Amazing how everyone is an expert though...


Trevor why not leave the option for nails or whatever they had before there? What's the point of removing them?

Dollar bills and other currency is one of the worst one's I can think of in Xsyon to use as a currency. There is no out go for it. Unlike other things like Nails, Screws, Bolts etc they are used in crafting and have a basic use.

The reason they are removing nails is due to the crafting issues and Quality factor in it. Its too hard to code a totem that takes all this into account.

My problem is, why would anyone sell for dollars? You are making a fake market and the price of a dollar is going to do nothing but go UP and UP and UP over time as there is no out go.

I've said this before you need basic mats to have basic out go. Totem keep would solve this issue.
Why was nails so common as currency? They had a major outgo and a use to them. (Weapon crafting, building, etc)

I don't care what item is the currency, I care about inflation of the currency that is allowed in the game. It would be the same as allowing people to pick up 100000 dollars per scav at a time. It would mess up the economy.

Anyways, Trevor you can pick on the few people voicing their opinions, but Xsyon only has a few people playing it. Stop attacking the person and focus on the topic.

[Tesla]

Interesting discusion. The idea of using dollar bills as the currencey at trade totems would have worked great if it were introduced on day one. And it could still work if there was a sink for those bills in game.. As mentioned above, totem upkeep has been brought up before and could serve that role. Either way, the departure from nails as the established currency would be a difficult transition. I hate to think of the hundreds of thousand dollars I thew back on the junkpile.

[Trevor]

I do not recall attacking anyone MrDDT, so please check over things before you address me in the future.

Thanks.

[Romkak]

Dear Trevor.


Why won't it be used, because you and half a dozen other players say don't like the fact nails are not going to be used?

I'm sorry, but there are more people in Xsyon other than those you see voicing every thought that crosses their mind in global.

Amazing how everyone is an expert though...

This seems very offensive from my point of view, and we are just stating our oppinion, it that so bad?

I wont interfere with your oppinion if you stated one. We are just trying to give input, as asked for. So please let people answer the questions asked or state their oppinion as they please.

Enough of that lets get back on track:P

The upkeep of the totems might help a little, but it needs daily regulation to avoid inflation anyway so dont think the upkeep will do it alone. When the currency have no value alone it will be very hard to regulate the flow in and out of the game.

[cerveau]

Nails are not used on the new Trade option on totems ?

I can see how established players wont be happy with this as they already have 1000s of nails
wont be able to dominate the market.

Where as new players have nothing - I'm guessing the reason why nails arent used is to prevent established
players immmediately pricing out noobs by setting prices to high.

using "new currencies" will be like a blank slate give everyone new players included a fair start.

Of course the barter system is still there - players can still barter as they have before with nails, osb's or whatever.

[EDIT]
BUT I actually agree with alexandraepureanu's post on page 1 ie any currency

BUT If its truly a Trade option, then you should be able to trade for anything for example

IE : I want to sell a Architecture Blueprint in return for a WainWright blueprint.

Being able to place this on the totem instead of endless spamming chat is better plus its on sale 24/7
rather then just when im online.

[MrDDT]

Nails are not used on the new Trade option on totems ?

I can see how established players wont be happy with this as they already have 1000s of nails
wont be able to dominate the market.

Where as new players have nothing - I'm guessing the reason why nails arent used is to prevent established
players immmediately pricing out noobs by setting prices to high.

using "new currencies" will be like a blank slate give everyone new players included a fair start.

Of course the barter system is still there - players can still barter as they have before with nails, osb's or whatever.

This has nothing to do with it, as I wouldnt doubt that many large tribes and other old players have lots of dollars also. I know I have 100k+ of them. Heck I think just slightly less than I have other currency like bolts, nails, screws etc. Those get used over time, dollars keep stacking up. I have stacks of 10k of them at least 10 to 20 stacks of them.

I know what the issue is, nails, screws, bolts (the other currency items being removed) all had factors for crafting based on quality. In the trade totem currency has no quality and it would convert everything to supreme. Only items that are not used in crafting, had any issues with this. See the issue now? I could convert my old mats into supreme and craft with them using the trade totem. Dollars/pennies etc no one cares what quality they are as they have no use, which is based on quality.

Another factor to note about this, is the change from listing these items as a currency then up and changing it on players. This isnt a big factor to me, but its pretty clear to everyone who plays or played Xsyon. Nails was the biggest currency used ever, and is still being used.

[Deacon]

yes, nails will continue to be used as currency....no doubt...but not on totems it seems, so its a feature that may not be utilized much.

[GuideHael]

I think we went over a lot of this during the last tribal council on the test server when we ran through and tested everything. A lot of good points were brought up, most that I see being said over and over. I or someone else mentioned exchanges for valuing the currency against an in game item, 1k currency for 100 nails or even less. It all depends on what the value should be but then currency has a value and can be used by all and exchanged for that holy item you all call nails. All you would need to do then is price everything out based on the current exchange rates, simple as that.

These exchanges can be done by the players them selves as some like reginald have done and others already "They use OSB". I think players would go to the person who has the best exchange rates and you all could fight over that on another topic. As in real life, we back our currency with gold, so all that is needed is to back it with OSB, nails, or screws or any really, as you can easily setup the exchanges.

[Xsyon]

There will be a sink for currency and there will be controlled amounts of currency when the system is done. There will not be unlimited amounts of currencies as some of you are imagining. The system is not completed.

The reason nails and screws were removed from the currency list is because of the quality and more importantly, different materials.

Quest totems can still be used to exchange or barter one specific item for another specific item.

The Test Server is down for now while I continue working on the system. Thanks for the feedback so far!

[MrDDT]

How are dollars, pennies etc going to be backed in game? This a player regulated thing only?

[znaiika]

Nails were chosen for few reasons:
1: Light in weight and useed in many things.

In real life you can't carry 10,000 nails on your back, first weight and then size.
This is the real problem not using dollars as currency in Xsyon.
Change nails to have more weight, then see if that is going to make nails as currency.

Nails should be = to iron weight.
For example:
One kilo of iron to make 50 nails.
50 nails = 800 milligrams when crafted.

[GuideHael]

There will be a sink for currency and there will be controlled amounts of currency when the system is done. There will not be unlimited amounts of currencies as some of you are imagining. The system is not completed.

The reason nails and screws were removed from the currency list is because of the quality and more importantly, different materials.

Quest totems can still be used to exchange or barter one specific item for another specific item.


I don't think it has anything to do with weight as you can see with Xsyon's post above. He also said there will be a sink for currency and controlled amounts.

[Deacon]

He also said there will be a sink for currency and controlled amounts.

"Will be"....does not fit the now.....there "will be" archery which will make arrows have value, but not now...there "will be" crops making seeds have a value, but not now..there "will be" alot of things that havent yet materialized.......we can't perform monetary exchanges on what "Will Be"..

I've been waiting on what will be for a long time.

[OrlandoKev]

Thank you Xsyon for acknowledging the potential issues that we expressed concern about. Look forward to seeing the solutions you come up with.

[lordadamar]

Another Solution to community market place is something I mentioned 6 plus months ago in another post...
http://www.xsyon.com/project.php?issueid=1621#note6606

A Postman to deliver goods, why not do this, it would create the Drain JORDI wants, everything delivered by the postman has a fee like mentioned in the post..

Player visits Community Market or world Auction house, Xsyon charge an 5 or 10% rake on whatever the currency is on th item.

and/or

The Auction House / Market place gives them a Zone and Position of the Items and they can go it themselves to save the rake...

This would not only would Create a Drain, but a reason to travel and experience the xsyon world....

Do not Create a reason for people to be Griefed by players by having to drag there crap ina wagon to founders isle.

Innovate, bring some ease to a world economy.

[OrlandoKev]

Do not Create a reason for people to be Griefed by players by having to drag there crap ina wagon to founders isle.
.

Its a pvp game with full looting, how in the heck is that griefing, this is supposed to be a survival game, its not supposed to be easy.

[MrDDT]

Its a pvp game with full looting, how in the heck is that griefing, this is supposed to be a survival game, its not supposed to be easy.

EVE online has a system much like Xsyon's idea with totems, and it's economy is one of the best ones in all games. Not saying that's the only factor to economy but I would love to see it. I agree its not greifing it creates a dynamic economy system with traders, protection, movers and bandits.
Local markets start to form, with goods in the area, and other things like outposts and even protection running clans. This is one of my dreams for this game is when economy gets strong enough to see these types of things start to form.

[joexxxz]

Please We/I dont want W.O.W. style for the marketplace. I personally dont want to open a window and see where all the items are in the world. If you want to trade, you need to travel there.

[MrDDT]

Please We/I dont want W.O.W. style for the marketplace. I personally dont want to open a window and see where all the items are in the world. If you want to trade, you need to travel there.

You would still have to travel, just you would be able to see where the items are. Like EVE does.

[joexxxz]

Right EVE is not Xsyon, and EVE have spaceships with computers, this is
apocalyptic time, and xsyon dont have any electronic system in game yet, so ya!!!

Unless you can have an altar to gods, and one of the god can deliver information to the marketplace, then ya. that would be cool :)

[MrDDT]

So by that logic we should have perma death, and able to loot carts, and no permissions on baskets in a tribe either.

Let's not try to make everything about being 100% real and think of what would make it more fun? I don't think sending info to another totem to display what is for sale in another tribe is going to break anything. You still have to transport the goods from that totem to your own totem as well as get the currency to the totem you are buying it from.

What it does help is the hassle of walking around aimlessly in hope you run into a trade totem with the goods you might need.

[joexxxz]

I never said to make 100% real, I just want logic to it. Some sort of explaination of how things go about in the game world.



What it does help is the hassle of walking around aimlessly in hope you run into a trade totem with the goods you might need.


There is nothing wrong with that, to get to know your neighboors :)

[the_cretin]

Ok I'm sorry if I came up with this too little, too late. But, I wrote an article and posted it in the suggestions and it would completely change the way trading works. It is essentially a forum on the website for arranging trades with maybe it's own currency. If you want to read more about it check http://www.xsyon.com/project.php?issueid=1709#note6836

[Azzym]

I never said to make 100% real, I just want logic to it. Some sort of explaination of how things go about in the game world.

Do NOT apply logic to a game :)

If you try to justify all features in Xsyon by logic reasoning you are in so much deep poo you won't be able to walk. If you don't believe me try wrestle your mind around these mind benders:


Water is not a liquid, its a surface.
In the distance, when deeply immersed into the game you, all of a sudden, hear a car/truck on a road somewhere.
You manage to stack almost all types of fish, but there is this one fin-attached thingy that won't let you.
You can make lots of armor, even out of bone parts you never really want to know about, but you got no clue what to do with metal sheets that are in any junk pile in huge quantities.
There are a wide array of weapons availabe but no one really got the hang of how to toss a stone.
In the nicely cleared area you decide to plant a tree but a universal counter somewhere won't let you.
You try to hit this pesky animal in front of you but you are not close enough with your pick. The animal, on the other hand, have no problem biting you from the same distance.


With that said, my point is that I think a global market kind of thing would be a good idea for the game. A much needed sink has to be implemented at the same time to create a surge too for the currency.

[tomduril]

Currency sink is one of the main issues with trading in any game.

A constant flow of new goods/resources versus a constant consumption of these goods - the balance between both these is essential for any game with trading!

So lets make a list, where does the stuff we create/gather in Xsyon go:
-) tools do break
-) weapons do break (shovels/axe mostly used by the players)
-) armor does break (eventually - never did happen to me though)
-) waterbarrels break (eventually - never did happen to me though)
-) architecture (every time you break down a created structure some materials are lost, but you do not have to do that)

Most of the resources that get sinked (are removed from the game again) are available in abundance.
"Rare resources" are:
-) old saw blades for tools-saws
-) shovel heads for weapons-shovels (terraforming)
-) tar, plastic bags for tools-waterskins (though sap for forager waterskins is available in abundance, and the scavenger/pioneer waterskins pose no particular benefit)
-) "good" bones - for armor / tools
-) "good" leather - for armor
-) metal decorations - for armor

Sorry if I am missing some thing you find important, but I am only listing things that are a true sink - nails are not on the list, because the stuff you create with nails (buildings, carts) are not "used up".

Each game with trading has one or moremajor sinks for resources, mostly in the field of either upkeep (repair) or progress (learning).

I am not sure if there is so much need for trading in Xsyon?!?
In my opinion the "sink" issue has to be tackled as well, to create the need!
Lots of ideas where posted in the last years that tackle this issue - upkeep for totems, faster decay of tools, decay of buildings ...

I like the idea of "gods" in Xsyon - which explains a lot of stuff going on (see Azzym list).

What about this idea:
-) altar building - with places to put resources (like a normal building)
-) for collecting and spending (sink !!) certain resources your tribe receives boni on the tribe area (this feature is working already) - like instead of +4 to all stats, +5/+6 for intelligence or any other stat the tribe chooses to push? So basically a tribe could choose to sink a lot of resources to get a (temporary) buff on some stats for their members - they get blessed by the gods ...

I am trying to work with "features" that are already in the game and should be fairly easy to realize ...

In my opinion there should be a sink present when the trade totems are available to foster the use of the totems.

[MrDDT]

I love your post and I agree with it completely.

[Venciera]

+1 tomduril I was going to suggest exactly what you outlined. Especially building a shrine that grants tribal members a buff. The shrine would require an upkeep such as resources or currency. I also think it would cool that if a neighboring tribe builds the same shrine it would cause the upkeep cost to rise. Then tribes would declare war with the intent of destroying the shrines. Either way such a system would really kick start the economy and add a ton of value to xsyon.

[Tesla]

Great post soakerl! Xsyon would be a much better game with a healthy economy. The correct consensus here is that there needs to be a sink for currency/resources as well as create value for the "rare" items in game. The altar idea would work imo. It would be a great start.

Another thing that has been wearing on my nerves for some time is the existance of so many useless items. Metal knobs top the list for me because they have been around since launch. There are so many more that the complete list is more than I will attempt to put together. Please lets the gods reveal the purpose of these artifacts. Maybe there could be a way to recycle these "goods" into an offering to the altar.

[Morphinehit]

Pfft, who needs computers and gods?

How do we know whats for sale? Smoke signals. Good old fashioned smoke signals.

Puff puff ... I have 10,000 nails for sale in 736 ... puff puffety puff puff ... also selling pinemartin keychains, 5 bottlecaps each or 3 for 12.

[Xira]

I agree that, despite the wishes and plans of the devs, UNTIL there is a useful currency sink added to the game, trade totems will be completely unused.

That's not how a small economy works, folks. You can't just fairy out some dollar bills with nothing to do with them and expect them to be used over something more established and useful.

[Xira]

Here, let me explain WHY I'm right, rather than just stating what's going to happen. Since it seems the devs aren't listening to simple statements, perhaps a historical argument will work.

In the USA back a long time ago, we backed our currency with gold. In fact, gold was often used as currency by itself among people. When the government decided to go off the gold standard(Nixon) they faced the problem that more and more people were simply using gold itself as currency. They wanted people to use their new thing, unbacked bills, to trade with. People refused to do this, so the government sent men with guns to many, many houses and demanded people's gold. It was made illegal to trade in gold. Enforced by men with guns. People were jailed and killed over their refusal to use unbacked bills. Eventually it became accepted to use unbacked bills, by governmental force of arms, and they repealed the laws making barter and gold owning illegal. People are still jailed over attempts to barter with gold and silver, if the owner of the business owed complains.

Since you aren't going to remove nails from the game and you can't stick a gun in our faces, you must provide something of value in return for your 'currencies' to create a demand for it. Until there is something of value given in return for currency by the game system to create an initial and ongoing demand, you are going to have a totally useless feature. I'm really not sure why you are developing it first, rather than something useful, but perhaps you just don't know how an economy works.

I liken it to Amazon Coins or BitCoins, the first is a disaster in the making and will never be widely adopted, the 2nd does provide value in that it's slightly harder for the government to control and confiscate, but is still not widely adopted because there are already established systems in place that are 'more legal'.

[Azzym]

Sorry if I am missing some thing you find important, but I am only listing things that are a true sink - nails are not on the list, because the stuff you create with nails (buildings, carts) are not "used up".


I like your post tomduril, it's spot on. Came to think about the nails when I read the quote above. Even though nails aren't a true sink every weaponcrafter grinding on the Tulip Club (or whatever it is named) spend quite a bit of nails on it. I'm not sure how many but if you need 10k clubs to get to 100 you have spent 20k nails. It's not a huge drain but it's probably more nails spent on levelling that skill alone than you spend on a smaller tribe, especially if you take the refunds into consideration.

[tomduril]

The major sink for nails is Wraincrafting - to be able to craft (and even learn the shemes) master carts you need to spend about 40k nails! There are other shemes for grinding on Wraincraft, but those need even more time (eg forager handles with 2 grass ropes).

Learning architecture, weaponcraft and wraincraft are a true sink for nails - you are right - *but* once you have built like 20 carts, you wont need any more nails. So basically it is not a real sink, in the sense that it is a sink for veteran players.

So eventually it will stack up at bigger tribes - unless you "throw nails" at new players that leave after 1 month (and spend like 3k nails on a skill they will not perform for the tribe). This is the only real sink at the moment (as far as I know) - players that use up resources and then leave ...