Totem Upkeep

[MrDDT]

Trade totems are ready to go, but are waiting for public release while I implement totem upkeep that will serve as a sink for local currency

Care to explain this a bit more on how it works and whats going on here? So far sounds like totem upkeep will be a great idea, but do you mind going into how you have it planned for working, the costs etc?

[Deacon]

and what happens to totems on subscribed accounts that arent.....upkept?

[lordadamar]

Speculation says the currently worthless money ( dollars, Quarters, Pennies ) in the game is the Currency planned for the sink on Trade Totem...

Tons of people are now buying and selling with the dollar bill, in anticipation of this..

IMO, I dont think this will solve the economy problems, it doesnt lend value to arms and armor, it just creates a sink to sell them, This still will not make them anymore valuable..

This is a step in the right direction, implementing a value into valueless economy is great, Im just not sure many but the big tribes are going to worry about this... Unfortunately the only way to create a inflated economy with values, is NPC's that buy at a base cost ratio or break even. With the Currency in the game...

Right now people are trying to figure out how many dollars per nails are found while scavenging to create this base value, but that number is so arbitrary, its going to be different for everyone based on skills... I know how many apoxx I find per hour but I also have sky high charm when I scavenge....

[MrDDT]

Starting with a sink for a currency is a requirement to have it in game working.

I see no issues with having a totem upkeep using currency (which is currently not being used, or of a value).

Does it change the value of armor and weapons etc? Yes, it changes it relative value to currency, but not its value to game items (Nails to armor ratio).

[lordadamar]

I know this is a little off-topic, but I love responding to MrDDT's replies especially when they lack reason

I'd like to hear your imaginative explanation on how it effect material goods value, how many people are paying for arms and armor now? If they do its something arbitrary like 200 nails ( or whatever ) for a full suit, there is no base cost involved to determine value of anything...

The Economy doesn't just need a sink, it needs base values to materials and finished products, otherwise it is what it is, why pay for a Trade totem, just spam global. I doubt Tribe Totems will decay less than 25 meters, that would just cause people to to stop playing, I dont care who you are no one wants to be a slave to maintenance..

DDT dont take what im saying the wrong way, things like this need to happen but where does the value come in, a sink is a sink nothing has value right now, atleast not before the speculation of dollars having value..

They should incorporate my " Buy a Size Tribe" idea in the suggestions forum, Add this to a the the mix of newly created values, and maintenance, Why stop a drain at a Trade totem, make every piece of land have a value like real life...

[MrDDT]

How does it not add value to currency?

Right now (before the post about currency being used for upkeep) no one would use it to buy armor or tools or whatever. Because currency had no value.
Now with the currency being used to pay upkeep it gives it a value. People will want currency now, which means they others will trade gear/tools/etc for currency so they dont have to get currency.

Paying for tribe land to drop a totem is an old idea that I've said and agreed with many times. I'm not sure what part is "your" idea about it, but if it just entails making a cost on totem dropping, then yeah good idea.

Economy is clearly more than a sink. Totem upkeep is more than just a sink, its a special type of sink for a currency item. Its also a sink that every tribe in game will be required to pay. How much of a sink will effect the worth of currency from, almost nothing to unlimited.

[lordadamar]

My Idea was a little different than past ideas, giving more customization to tribe expansion not just a radius.. Thanks though..

So...

Lets says they determine 100 dollars per 24 hour period Real life time ( not game time )is the drain, for the sake of easy numbers lets say every month is worth 3000 dollars. Im betting its somewhere close to this.. How does this effect goods..

You cant assume because dollars have value suddenly people will start selling goods, there still a problem with the need factor, how many time have you bought new armor or had a need for new armor.. Maybe when every stat actually works and does something the need will be there, because the Diversity will be to great for a single person in your tribe to maintain...

I see your point that now a dollar has value for Trade totems, I just dont think it will effect goods as much, unless maybe its a cart... which seem to always be in demand...

Ill try your theory tonight and see how much Value the dollar carries...

[MrDDT]

My point wasnt how much value it had, it was that it NOW has value. Which before it didnt. Before you couldnt trade a dollar for 1 nail, as dollars were trash.
With upkeep using dollars at any rate, at least you can get 1 nail.

How much they are in value will depend on how many dollars it requires for upkeep. If its 1000 dollars a week per meter radius, expect dollars to be in high demand.

[lordadamar]

Always fun having a debate with you, good times...

Maybe the dev's are watching and we gave them some ideas...

[Tesla]

Seems to be a step in the right direction. Will this sink be implemented at your main tribe totem or just your trade totem? If it is just the trade totem, then I don't see it having any impact on the economy. If it is the main totem, now we are getting somewhere, but everyone needs to know that just having an active sub isn't enough to protect your stuff anymore. It would also help if all armor would decay like the heyburn does to create demand for armor. Then all of a sudden we have scavengers working to meet the demand for money supply, hunters out hunting to supply the bone and leather crafters and all the interaction and conflict that would result from this activity. Sure it may seem harsh to some. But, honestly, I don't hardly log in anymore out of boredom. If there was a reason to do things, and for me some semblance of an economy would suffice, then I may be active again.

[Venciera]

Reading about the new changes really made my day. One of my number one complaints in sandbox MMOs are clutter, and the feeling that all the available land has been taken. Having terrain return to its original state will help clean up a lot the of crap that's around. Sure its nice to see ruins, and explore them for what treasures they keep, but its everywhere right now, and needs to be removed somehow.

I've been advocating some form of tribal upkeep for a while now and I'm very happy to see it finally being implemented. It will give players some purpose in the world, and a real reason to fight.

Now all we need is a way to declare war. I'm not suggesting war means destroy everything, and take over the defending tribe. It could be objective based, but that's whole other topic.

Lastly, I think lordadamar is bias. :P

[lordadamar]

If im biased about anything its implementing maintenance costs on base tribe size 25x25 meters, Trade totems sure live it up if the cost is to high most just wont do it..

Like DDT, i have always suggested ways to build an economy, what I have been trying to say about the Currency is it really not that rare to find atleast not for me probably have thrown away 100k+ over the last few months... If it becomes rare then it will just be over inflated mess.

Armor degradation doesnt directly give it a value. A Base value still needs to be set, once common, uncommon, rare and super rare receive a set in game value either by NPC's or an Auction house, then the in game currency will fall into place and have an and immediate determinable value...

If you think im biased towards a sink then your not understanding my posts, I said its step in the right direction, but its not a 100% solution. You also cant rely on Armor degradation to create economy, if this happens to fast people will just horde mats to make sure they stay in the armor they like, to slow and it wont matter...

IMO opinion the games world economy needs unified, with a Central auction house or...

Idea, #157

Have certain levels of trading

Trade Totems can only be dropped 1 to 5 zones from Tribe totem they belong too. Create a Regional aspect..

Add The ability for Tribes to maintain a Regional Auction house ( of course with a sink fee ) This would create hubs trading vs a single area on founders isle..

Trade totem would have a global tab that would show other items for sale not by tribe, there location Zone and Pos, And Tribe name.. Some will say why show other peoples stuff. One word " Competition " this would also assist in creating Values...
( these items would require Travel )

This still lets player control the economy who wouldnt want to build and auction house and have there tribe be the Mecca for trading in ... LETS GET TRIBES and PLAYERS Involved with shaping the world and its economy...

Of course this still hinges on creating base values on items, And make the Dollar do something beside maintaining a Sink.

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Think about this You made 50k selling items, your sink is 4000 a month, what value does the other 46k have to you, it doesnt buy you anything like rare recipes, items, or mats. Your just selling to maintain your sink and the other person you bought from is maintaining there sink, so once you have 200k there's really no reason to sell. After all its just for sink, theres no added bonus...

Once again im Pro Creating Sinks, I just think alot more needs to be done to create value...

[Drevar]

The sink itself gives it "worth". The actual "value", i.e. exchange rate for other goods or time equivalence has yet to be determined by the players themselves. The value does not need to be a static number set in code, nor should it be in a sandbox. It needs to evolve based on what the players determine it to be.

Is it easier to just have a set value like gold in a fantasy themepark MMORPG? Yep...but noone should have any illusions that Xsyon was meant to be easy.

My concern is totally different, that despite the game seeing each currency having the same measure of value per unit, players may not. In your mind, is a beer tab really worth a dollar bill? Maybe it's my bias toward US currency, but I don't see them as having the same value. I think the dollars, quarters, pennies need to be eliminated and leave only those that have no pre-conceived notion of real world value.

[MrDDT]

The sink itself gives it "worth". The actual "value", i.e. exchange rate for other goods or time equivalence has yet to be determined by the players themselves. The value does not need to be a static number set in code, nor should it be in a sandbox. It needs to evolve based on what the players determine it to be.

I agree, I was going to post the same thing. Just setting a use in game (upkeep) on an item, means it will have some value. What that value is ratio to other items is not needed to be set by Xsyon. Players will set that value. However, if dollars are found at say 1000 an hour, and you only need 1 dollar per month of game for a tribe upkeep, then it will be pretty worthless still. Same is true the other way, if you find 1 dollar a hour and it takes 1000000 dollars a month upkeep. Dollars clearly will be worth a LOT. There will need to be a balance where people want to trade for dollars (or sell for dollars) and the option to find it themselves without just have a ton of dollars free flowing around the world.



Is it easier to just have a set value like gold in a fantasy themepark MMORPG? Yep...but noone should have any illusions that Xsyon was meant to be easy.

My concern is totally different, that despite the game seeing each currency having the same measure of value per unit, players may not. In your mind, is a beer tab really worth a dollar bill? Maybe it's my bias toward US currency, but I don't see them as having the same value. I think the dollars, quarters, pennies need to be eliminated and leave only those that have no pre-conceived notion of real world value.


To be honest, I think they should remove all the "currency" items from the game and restart how they are found. They should be some gained through scav, and some gained through killed revs. So you can get it 2 ways (scav is already wicked powerful in items found and need, making it the only way for upkeep will be overpowered IMO), crafters should then be able to sell goods for dollars found by gatherers (PVE, and Scavers).

My main issue will be balance and the current amount of currency on the market.


One thing I DONT want to see is what Lordadamar, said where prices of items are set by Xsyon. This is the worst way to go about doing it in a sandbox game.

Global display of goods and prices on the trade totems with location, upkeep using currency, and economy will see a huge boon.

[Venciera]

I agree. Theres no need to set base prices on all items. Supply and demand will determain an item's value. Hopefully we will also see regional scarcity which will encourage more trade and less isolationism. The inclusion of war will give walls, weapons and armor greater value as players fight to protect their interests.

I'm totally opposed to any form of global or regional trade totem or auction house. There's no need, and it goes against the principles of a sandbox.

[MrDDT]

I agree. Theres no need to set base prices on all items. Supply and demand will determain an item's value. Hopefully we will also see regional scarcity which will encourage more trade and less isolationism. The inclusion of war will give walls, weapons and armor greater value as players fight to protect their interests.

I'm totally opposed to any form of global or regional trade totem or auction house. There's no need, and it goes against the principles of a sandbox.

I just want it to display the items globally, but you still have to travel to get them. I'm even ok if does it in large regions, but I see no reason why not to display what is avail for sale globally.

If they remove the death porting, and add in better travel options, it will work a lot like EVE does. You have Regional markets and you can even make money out of just transporting goods from region to region. Its a very working system.

[Venciera]

I just want it to display the items globally, but you still have to travel to get them. I'm even ok if does it in large regions, but I see no reason why not to display what is avail for sale globally.

If they remove the death porting, and add in better travel options, it will work a lot like EVE does. You have Regional markets and you can even make money out of just transporting goods from region to region. Its a very working system.

I don't have a problem with seeing what's globally on sale. I just don't want any fast travel/instant delivery of items. It might be more interesting if you could only see what's available at tribes you've visited. Like you have to establish a trade connection. Then you could place an order and someone would have a delivery quest at that tribe.

Death porting wouldn't be a problem if players dropped everything upon death. If you wanted to keep an item you would have get some form of insurance. *cough* currency sink *cough*

[MrDDT]

Yeah, this is getting a bit off topic, but I agree with high priced insurance.
Also like the idea on places you visited but then again how could you code that might have issues there.

Another good idea would maybe be, an alliance (agreement) with other tribes to display each tribe, or maybe an extra upkeep cost to display tribes, and you can choose which. There are a lot of options.
One thing I know is that, if you cant see trade totems from far away, trade is unlikely to happen. Few people are going to walk around totem to totem to see what is for "sale" and then go back and get currency.

About dropping items on death, its not so much death porting items if items are dropped. I think gravestones/corpse/whatever with options to insure items (with 1 item being able to be looted as choice. I say this because long ago Xsyon said it would be something like this). This would be a good for a second sink.
Items left on graves could have a 20% decay cost just for being on the grave (not counting the looted item) and maybe decay at a rapid rate. Something like 1% every 1hour. Giving the player a chance to get back to the body, but still imposing a cost if they dont.

[Azurfale]

I'm going to continue to derail this thread and say hi! What's new and exciting in the land of Xsyon? Last time I played was just before revenants, (i'm sure my place has been looted by now), have they added anything else exciting? Or is it still grinding crafting all day with the occassional bear the size of a hamster running around?

Back on topic, no matter the cost I know you have enough of any of the currencies to afford upkeep ;p

[MrDDT]

I'm going to continue to derail this thread and say hi! What's new and exciting in the land of Xsyon? Last time I played was just before revenants, (i'm sure my place has been looted by now), have they added anything else exciting? Or is it still grinding crafting all day with the occassional bear the size of a hamster running around?

Back on topic, no matter the cost I know you have enough of any of the currencies to afford upkeep ;p

Hey man, few new things, you can check it out for free if you want to see whats up and drop by and say hey in game. Any "paid" account that is inactive still can log in on the live server now, just your skills are capped. So I would say best to check out the updates in game.

About the currencies to afford upkeep. I already stated I would be more than happy with a clean wipe of all "currency" items in game and fix the respawn/drop/found rate of them starting fresh. I think it would be a good idea to do t his now rather than try to fix it later.