Feedback Request 03/11/2013 - Tribe Upkeep

[Xsyon]

Tribe Upkeep is ready for public testing. Please provide feedback here.

Totem and Upkeep Tab:

- Displays upkeep statistics and information on upkeep effects.
- Displays a list of operational Trade and Quest totems and their Tribe locations.
- Upkeep can be added using the upkeep tab.
- Totem shows player class and last active day
- Totem can now refresh values with multiple players viewing the totem.

Upkeep:

- Updates once per Game Day. Upkeep is reduced by 0.5% of maximum per Game Day.
- Upkeep takes 200 Game Days (22 Real Days) to reduce from 100% to 0%.
- All effects will apply at maximum power at 80% upkeep. 80-100% upkeep is considered overstocking.
- Upkeep consists of three components: Currency, Resources and Provisions (Food). Provisions are reserved for future use when agriculture is fully implemented.

- Currency upkeep uses the Tribe's local currency.
- Currency is required per full tribe member. Trial / Transient tribe members do not require currency upkeep.
- Currency upkeep affects tribal and tribe leader bonuses as follows:

0-20% upkeep, no bonuses.
20%-80% upkeep, bonuses increasing from 0 to 100% of bonus.
80-100% upkeep, overstock, bonuses at 100%.


- Resources are required per building on tribe land.
- Resource type is determined by the most common building type.
- Resource upkeep affects tribal construction functionality as follows:

0-20% upkeep, can't terraform, can't construct buildings
20% upkeep, terraforming available
40% upkeep, construction available


Notes:

Please note: The main purpose of this thread is for me to obtain feedback on reasonable upkeep amounts and gather suggestions on what you players want for the effects of upkeep.

The initial amounts were arbitrary and set for testing purposes while I gather data and your feedback.

- I would like feedback on the amount of upkeep per tribe member.
- Provisions can be ignored. They will not be implemented with the first public upkeep patch.
- Resources are currently set only to granite. This will be revised based on building types.
- I am open to suggestions regarding the effects of upkeep.
- Important: Currently upkeep is reducing per Game Hour. This is temporary for testing ONLY.
- Values are amounts are in testing.

03/15/2013 Revisions:

- Updates once per Game Day. Upkeep is reduced by 0.5% of maximum per Game Day. (4.5% per Real Day)- Upkeep takes 200 Game Days (22 Real Days) to reduce from 100% to 0%.
- Resource upkeep capped at 1000 units.
- Currency upkeep set at 100 units per player.
- Overstock increased to 30% (max reached at 70%). With the increased upkeep time, this provides roughly a week of overstock.
- Tribal Member buff added. Stat bonuses now apply to you as a tribe member regardless of location.
- Tribal Lands buff displays that you are in a safe zone.
- Town member and rank information displays only for tribe members.

[tomduril]

Wow - I like the principle - as "Resources upkeep" is really are something you need to do, in order to be able to build - that`s harsh, but I like it very much !!! There will be a run on granite :)

I have a question about "Per full member" - how is that counted ?
"Full member" means has a active subscription, or does it mean "bought the game" - active subscription not neccessary? Dormant players can start to be a burden on some "old established" tribes in the second case (which is sort of what a lot of players requested). I still like the general idea of the upkeep !

Very good design, thank you very much!

[dem1urge]

So far, I'm not liking the decay rate on Upkeep, you'd nearly have to have someone on 24/7 to keep bonuses. lol I'd like it reduced per RealLife day. Per game day is just too harsh for casual players and you're going to have more casual players than hard-core, I think, as these are the types that are attracted to such games and STAY, IMO.

[OrlandoKev]

My stats are not updating correctly or even updating consistent from stat to stat, the only one that updated correctly is strength based on 43.81% of the dollars fed to totem, buff icons indicate i should be getting 1.72 for tribeland, 1.72 for leader, str bonus at 3.4, fort at 1.4, agility at .7 , dex at .7, int at .2, spirit at 0 (i have 0 base stat on spirit and no bonus) , perception at .1, charm .0

P.S. Yes i got nekked to test this.

Once i reached 100% bonus (had to change currency types a couple times to pull this off) then i am getting 8 points on all stats.

(side note) if i check rank tab on a different tribes totem, shows ranks (names and numbers) for my tribe, not theirs.

(side note) every game hour, i hear like the crafting noise and some couple inch window "flashes" on and off game screen real fast.

(side note) trade totem placed on allied property had defaults name of "Oasis Totem Totem"

Grass Packs and Grass Pouches do not have a label or lock option for them.

[OrlandoKev]

Far as thoughts and feedback, i have some, but no interest in dealing with forum trolls, so if another method of providing them, let me know and i will.

[tomduril]

Grass Packs and Grass Pouches do not have a label or lock option for them.
It`s been like that as long as I can remember.

Very good tests though. Thank you!

[MrDDT]

Bonuses, are next to worthless for the cost.

Decay is way to fast, why not have a larger buffer or something so we don't have to feed it as much.

8000 "currency" every real day, is much to much.

Can we get more bonuses? Instead of just 4 points of stats only in tribe lands (and 4 for leader everywhere)?
Maybe like healing rates, crafting success rates, energy decay/regen, HP bonus, energy bonus etc.

Just stats is not much to motivate people to pay upkeep costs, and when they do pay, its likely for a short time for whatever they need the stats for, then let it drop again.

[Drevar]

Could we get the ability to see our upkeep status without being at the actual totem? Not the ability to add upkeep, just to be able to view the status. I think the Tribe Info (actual totem) and Tribe tab (on the normal UI) need to be unified and have certain actions only be useable in range of the totem. Having the functions split is annoying.

[fatboy21007]

this system is bad all over. Im sorry disabling building, terraforming. my totem said 734 granite bricks, 47000 dollars, 47000 provision. Lets get real here, No tribe in this game in the years its been here has stayed active more then a few months. Ive restarted mine over 40 times, tried to keep it active and they always quit. This is a sandbox, Make this system for bonus's give a perk for that 1 member or all ofem contributing to get awesome boosted while on the tribe. Don't take away building, terraforming, etc. That's just nuts. People don't pay a sub to goto work, they do it to play a game. I pray to god you have a hard look at this as my tribes big and any1 elses that gets big, will have to spend 24/7 everyday ingame just to keep the land they spent years working on, adding people , Useable . Some of ya might not agree with me. But im sorry I spent years getting 49 members. Its not my fault they don't stick around, I just had 3 friends join the game and they seen this stuff and don't want no part of it. Reaslitable 100 a month of each sounds rite, as people have LIVES. and yes people I still play the game I just don't chat. don't care to.

[tomduril]

I know I can get 1 granite in about 6 seconds. That makes about 15 granite in 2 minutes. Then I have to transfer the 15 granite to the totem upkeep (with luck the granite is right next to the totem, my character can move about 400 granite with a cart). If I spend 60 minutes only on granite gathering and adding it to the totem - that would make about 400 granite an hour (loosing 50 granite due to energy management-eating&drinking-, lags and clicking) all in real time. Right next to the totem !
If I have about 5 minutes back and forth the granite is reduced to roughly 300 per hour). This calculation does not includes no "play" breaks ...
Still the granite has to be transformed into bricks (forgot about that) - well about 190 bricks per hour - not counting the time to create the hammer and chinsel for that work (my forager hammer breaks after ~150 bricks - with mansonry at 100).

How long should that 1 play time hour of "boring granite work" provide a tribe with the ability to terraform and build?

I would like the system be adapted so that e.g.: 2 players work for 1 real time hour to provide resources for a 30-50 player tribe to build for 1 real time week.

IMHO the system should be adapted to:
* overstock for 1/2 a game year season - so essentially 1 real time week
* drop rates adjusted so that all resources are spend in 2 game seasons (so essentially 4 real time weeks)
* change upkeep costs so that 2 players can re-stock the upkeep for 1 real time week in about 1 playing hour (so the upkeep that is payed in 1 real time week, can be replaced by working for 2 player hours)

This would mean that for a very large tribe (like Pawnee, The Praetorian Guards, IS) 1 player has to spend 2 playing hours a week to provide the upkeep for building (for 1 play week). 4 players are done in 30 minutes (roughly) - that makes sense, still gives the system some meaning and players that capture a huge part of the map - because they once had 60 members but are now alone - have to pay tribute to their large land.

Please keep in mind that this is only for building!

Any comments ?

[unclean666]

I was going to try and stay out of the whole upkeep thing as I never really care one way or another about it.But I see a huge problem that will imo make or break trade totems and currency in the game.

The reward/reason to sink all that currency into the upkeep has to be better then just a few stat points on tribe land.The trade totems use this currency and its what we will be converting to for traded goods from what we use now (nails).The problems is four stat points only on trade land just isent enough to make me want to sink all that hard earned money into upkeep and I have a feeling most people will not as well and if they do it will be a few times and they screw this im going broke and cant even buy anything I want now.So as time goes on no ones putting money in upkeep and inflation just killed this currency and your trade totems because im sure not giving up my goods for a currency that is becoming more worthless everyday.

Theres a world of things that can be done other then just a few stat points and it can change up by days or weeks or even making the type you put in the totem determine what effect/bonus you get.

A few examples.This week our tribe got the scavenging bonus the members that are scavenger builds are rewarded.
This week we got the terraforming bonus and terraforming time is cut in half per action.
This week we got the Hunting bonus and the hunters get a few more bones with carves or better quality odds etc.
This week we got the combat bonus that gives 8 str fort and agil on and off tribe land so the tribes worriers are now stronger for a week.
This week we got the building bonus and construction only needs half the mats this week.

You get the idea im not saying it has to be those and happen that way but something of that nature and that type of stuff would 100% make me excited to get the bonus that effects the stuff I enjoy doing in the game as im sure some of the ones that dont will make the people and toon builds that it does happy.

[MrDDT]

this system is bad all over. Im sorry disabling building, terraforming. my totem said 734 granite bricks, 47000 dollars, 47000 provision. Lets get real here, No tribe in this game in the years its been here has stayed active more then a few months. Ive restarted mine over 40 times, tried to keep it active and they always quit. This is a sandbox, Make this system for bonus's give a perk for that 1 member or all ofem contributing to get awesome boosted while on the tribe. Don't take away building, terraforming, etc. That's just nuts. People don't pay a sub to goto work, they do it to play a game. I pray to god you have a hard look at this as my tribes big and any1 elses that gets big, will have to spend 24/7 everyday ingame just to keep the land they spent years working on, adding people , Useable . Some of ya might not agree with me. But im sorry I spent years getting 49 members. Its not my fault they don't stick around, I just had 3 friends join the game and they seen this stuff and don't want no part of it. Reaslitable 100 a month of each sounds rite, as people have LIVES. and yes people I still play the game I just don't chat. don't care to.

734 granite is based on how many buildings you have, and don't forget its over 11 real days. Which is 67 granite a real day. Which is less than 6mins a day pulling granite for a tribe of 49 members or 7 seconds per REAL day per member.

If they can't handle 7 seconds a day gathering resources then they are likely not really playing Xsyon anyways.

Now the other stuff, I believe its way too fast for the rewards you get. +1 to +4 bonus inside a tribe area on stats for 1000s of dollars and provisions is not going to make anyone want to do it, they are just going to forget about the bonus.

You say "100" of each per REAL month? That would be literately less than 30seconds a MONTH for a tribe of 50 members. That's way to low.

You are not going to lose your tribe, you are not going to lose anything but a BONUS. If you are not playing (or any of your tribe members) they are just not getting the bonus, clearly they and you are not active if you cant afford some upkeep.

[MrDDT]

I know I can get 1 granite in about 6 seconds. That makes about 15 granite in 2 minutes. Then I have to transfer the 15 granite to the totem upkeep (with luck the granite is right next to the totem, my character can move about 400 granite with a cart). If I spend 60 minutes only on granite gathering and adding it to the totem - that would make about 400 granite an hour (loosing 50 granite due to energy management-eating&drinking-, lags and clicking) all in real time. Right next to the totem !
If I have about 5 minutes back and forth the granite is reduced to roughly 300 per hour). This calculation does not includes no "play" breaks ...
Still the granite has to be transformed into bricks (forgot about that) - well about 190 bricks per hour - not counting the time to create the hammer and chinsel for that work (my forager hammer breaks after ~150 bricks - with mansonry at 100).

How long should that 1 play time hour of "boring granite work" provide a tribe with the ability to terraform and build?

I would like the system be adapted so that e.g.: 2 players work for 1 real time hour to provide resources for a 30-50 player tribe to build for 1 real time week.

IMHO the system should be adapted to:
* overstock for 1/2 a game year season - so essentially 1 real time week
* drop rates adjusted so that all resources are spend in 2 game seasons (so essentially 4 real time weeks)
* change upkeep costs so that 2 players can re-stock the upkeep for 1 real time week in about 1 playing hour (so the upkeep that is payed in 1 real time week, can be replaced by working for 2 player hours)

This would mean that for a very large tribe (like Pawnee, The Praetorian Guards, IS) 1 player has to spend 2 playing hours a week to provide the upkeep for building (for 1 play week). 4 players are done in 30 minutes (roughly) - that makes sense, still gives the system some meaning and players that capture a huge part of the map - because they once had 60 members but are now alone - have to pay tribute to their large land.

Please keep in mind that this is only for building!

Any comments ?


I like a larger overstocking option (more than 2 game days is needed).
Not sure where you getting they need to be turned into bricks, but its just straight granite.

You say "2 hour per week" guessing, that's a real week. Also how large of a tribe is that? Just FYI, for Fatboy's tribe size (what he has built) it would be less than 2 hours a week. (Closer to 1 hour a week) This is just for the building rights.

I believe granite needed is fine, the balance on it based on how many buildings is fine, large tribes like IS, RR, should have 10+ active members per week playing, you break that down into just a few mins per person required to upkeep construction rights. Which not every week tribes will be doing.

Reserves and Provisions are WAYYYYY out of balance.

To add into part of the bonuses, not only do I believe that the "resources" should allow building and terraforming, but it should also allow increase energy regen and HP regen while on tribe lands. (Or under buildings). Reason for this, is there is a time where tribes will stop building, and having a bonus for finished tribes for resources would help economy.


I was going to try and stay out of the whole upkeep thing as I never really care one way or another about it.But I see a huge problem that will imo make or break trade totems and currency in the game.

The reward/reason to sink all that currency into the upkeep has to be better then just a few stat points on tribe land.The trade totems use this currency and its what we will be converting to for traded goods from what we use now (nails).The problems is four stat points only on trade land just isent enough to make me want to sink all that hard earned money into upkeep and I have a feeling most people will not as well and if they do it will be a few times and they screw this im going broke and cant even buy anything I want now.So as time goes on no ones putting money in upkeep and inflation just killed this currency and your trade totems because im sure not giving up my goods for a currency that is becoming more worthless everyday.

Theres a world of things that can be done other then just a few stat points and it can change up by days or weeks or even making the type you put in the totem determine what effect/bonus you get.

A few examples.This week our tribe got the scavenging bonus the members that are scavenger builds are rewarded.
This week we got the terraforming bonus and terraforming time is cut in half per action.
This week we got the Hunting bonus and the hunters get a few more bones with carves or better quality odds etc.
This week we got the combat bonus that gives 8 str fort and agil on and off tribe land so the tribes worriers are now stronger for a week.
This week we got the building bonus and construction only needs half the mats this week.

You get the idea im not saying it has to be those and happen that way but something of that nature and that type of stuff would 100% make me excited to get the bonus that effects the stuff I enjoy doing in the game as im sure some of the ones that dont will make the people and toon builds that it does happy.



All very good points, I believe that the bonuses currently do not warrant the cost of time to get them, and will do almost nothing in game.

Also a note, bonuses need to have effects OUTSIDE of tribe area. Most members will not care much just for a minor bonus inside a tribe area.

[fatboy21007]

my whole entire point here is the fact, people aren't going to pay a sub to grind resources just so they can build. and since this is going off buildings. Imagine a giant tower.... and wat decides how big a building really is? and yes 734 granite isn't that bad, but the fact if no one in the tribe wants skill decay nukeing skills cuz they gotta upkeep. Yea really crappy idea. I simply don't like this system, As yes if a tribe my size was fully active, sure they can do it, But lets face it here, that's impossible. so the few who do stay active have to spec into these skills just to keep there tribe useable. and ddt, I know u cant possibly be agreeing with the notion of Locking out terraforming, building on tribes. Upkeep should be 100% for nothing but bonus's perks to work towards. Not perks we should ALREADY get with are friggin totems. Just think, new player sets a totem down, to build etc, he has to do upkeep first, then do the building, and for each building he adds Upkeep rises. Wth, bad bad system as you are taking the only thing going for xsyon and killing peoples ability to do it. Now I ant got much built on my tribe cuz I knew 1 day this wat used to be *suggestion* might hit the game. Now that it has its nuts. This system doesn't encourage trade. It encourages uninstalls..lol Im all for a upkeep systems that benefits people feeding it. But I am 100% against any that takes away a tribes ability to function. Why not have terraforming bonus's, Building bonus's. Ie make a building with say Intel boosts, well if upkeeps paid you will have a crafting building that gives those bonus's. Etc. I think this is the type of system needed Bonus's to reward those who do the work , and choose which bonus they want for wat they are doing. Remember this is a sandbox, Or was, anymore this sandpit is getting more n more limiting and not making it much fun. So neither Remove skill decay or change upkeep to where it is purely for bonus's, This is a crap ton of skills ingame that everyone would love bonus;s on. hell even have add Quality to items that you craft if your bonus is 100% I see more benefits and more people willing to feed it just for that. but to feed it for the rite to keep building, terraforming, im sorry, Just no way in hell. Taking that way and making it a daily chore is not gaming, its clocking into work just to play. No matter if its small or large. Hell id hate to see wat ur bill is ddt..lol

[MrDDT]

Fayboy, a new person that has nothing build on a totem needs to upkeep nothing to build on it. Thus they wouldnt need to put resources in for upkeep.

It encourages trade because people will need resources for upkeep and bonuses.

You say that people will need "skills" they might not want, well they can lock them at - and never gain a skill and get the resources just fine. So there would be no skill decay, or stat decay. So there is no need to "spec" into a skill.

I do think using a bonus system is better overall.

About the # of people active in a tribe, tough luck that your tribe has zero people playing in it, you wont have to worry about building or terraforming when zero of you are active. If you have a tribe area that large, then you have to deal with costs that are more than someone taking up less land.

[the_cretin]

I would like to see upkeep affecting the size of a tribe. You just need to keep the cost low and perhaps only use this idea in a limited way for small tribes that are having a hard time expanding? You dont necessarily have to make huge tribes shrink for not paying immediately but over time is it such a bad idea to reduce the size of these inactive tribes? It might give them a reason to pop back in the game once a week to spend a couple hours playing the game.

It might sound nuts to a few people at first to have to pay a material upkeep for something they put their time and money into but to me it sound great because expanding the tribe seems impossible sometimes. A material upkeep for tribe size seems easier then trying to recruit lots of people to me. And it gives us something to do once per week.... nothing wrong with that!

I think of it like a business. A small business can still be successful and sometimes even require a lot of land space or just want to expand for new things. If we want storage spaces, gardens, open areas, building plots, trainging areas.. etc well it can be very hard when we have such small areas with little to no chance for expanding. I get ten times more free players join as I do sub accounts and neither type last for too long anymore.

As long as upkeep is kept manageable in 2-6 hours of play by 1 to 2 people at first (because this is average active players in a tribe) then it would be no problem. Also you could limit land growth by overstocking upkeep to perhaps 2.5 meters per 100 game days or something, and that way we can not grow so fast, just a little bit at a time and I think it could be good and fun for everyone.


Update: After trying it on the test server my only issue is with currency for tribal bonus. It wont get used often. Maybe instead use it for a bit of growth like I said and then if you dont pay for a period of 300 game days you lose your growth and go back to normal size. Had a few people in global that liked this idea.

[Nezdar]

Tribe Upkeep is ready for public testing. Please provide feedback here.


- I would like feedback on the amount of upkeep per tribe member.
- Provisions can be ignored. They will not be implemented with the first public upkeep patch.
- Resources are currently set only to granite. This will be revised based on building types.
- There will be a timer on changing your local currency.
- I am open to suggestions regarding the effects of upkeep.


As far as rates, until we get something new, I am opposed to anything more than nominal taxation. 10% of what's proposed in game at this time is manageable. Anything more and we need a damn good feature like increased radius, ability to raise and lower objects, 80% reduction of terraforming fatigue, something we can enjoy as a player.

[Aiden]

I would like to see upkeep affecting the size of a tribe. You just need to keep the cost low and perhaps only use this idea in a limited way for small tribes that are having a hard time expanding? You dont necessarily have to make huge tribes shrink for not paying immediately but over time is it such a bad idea to reduce the size of these inactive tribes? It might give them a reason to pop back in the game once a week to spend a couple hours playing the game.

It might sound nuts to a few people at first to have to pay a material upkeep for something they put their time and money into but to me it sound great because expanding the tribe seems impossible sometimes. A material upkeep for tribe size seems easier then trying to recruit lots of people to me. And it gives us something to do once per week.... nothing wrong with that!

I think of it like a business. A small business can still be successful and sometimes even require a lot of land space or just want to expand for new things. If we want storage spaces, gardens, open areas, building plots, trainging areas.. etc well it can be very hard when we have such small areas with little to no chance for expanding. I get ten times more free players join as I do sub accounts and neither type last for too long anymore.

As long as upkeep is kept manageable in 2-6 hours of play by 1 to 2 people at first (because this is average active players in a tribe) then it would be no problem. Also you could limit land growth by overstocking upkeep to perhaps 2.5 meters per 100 game days or something, and that way we can not grow so fast, just a little bit at a time and I think it could be good and fun for everyone.


Update: After trying it on the test server my only issue is with currency for tribal bonus. It wont get used often. Maybe instead use it for a bit of growth like I said and then if you dont pay for a period of 300 game days you lose your growth and go back to normal size. Had a few people in global that liked this idea.

I was hoping that this is what would be implemented honestly. Being a homesteader, I'd love having the option to pump some extra resources and upkeep in to expand my borders a bit. I don't necessarily need a huge area, but actively playing and using this system has to be more rewarding than just a few + stats.

I'd love to see a balancing of the necessary upkeeps, a buff idea like Dang's, and the option to expand your area a bit using the upkeep/resource system.

[Vargo]

So when the concept of upkeep was brought up a year ago, or more by now, It was a suggestion to do away with all the dead tribes... NOT a suggestion for ways to annoy active players.

With the current system you have for testing, there is no real reason to put forth any effort to gather the currency for the minimal buffs given. Especially considering they are on tribe land only. Now maybe stats will start to play more of a role when you craft again, but such is not the case atm. So the currency upkeep is just a waste of energy.

The resource upkeep, for me at least, is a non issue. For larger, inactive tribes, it could be quite annoying also. BUT this is why I prefer not to have large areas, devs often make these weird choices when something different was suggested.

If totem upkeep was used to expand your tribe area, I would certainly use it. Along with the other buff ideas that have been presented here.

TL;DR Current Upkeep System is pointless as is, and will be ignored until someone needs to build.

[Drevar]

Not sure if Test is on accelerated time or not, but my full upkeep ran out in 3-4 days rather than the supposed 11 listed in the initial post.

[Drevar]

Just tested and yep, it is ticking 1% every in game hour...for testing purposes only, I hope.

[MrDDT]

Just tested and yep, it is ticking 1% every in game hour...for testing purposes only, I hope.

Test is on a very rapid increase in game time for the regrowth of the terraforming/grass etc effects.

Based on my math it looks like 100 game days will empty out your resources in your totem. We know that 1 real day = 9.1 game days.

[the_cretin]

Just noticed on test that when I try to plow for farming it says my resource upkeep must be above 20%. Might want to add "Farming not available" under the rest of them in the resource upkeep window.

[Willowhawk]

my whole entire point here is the fact, people aren't going to pay a sub to grind resources just so they can build. and since this is going off buildings. Imagine a giant tower.... and wat decides how big a building really is? and yes 734 granite isn't that bad, but the fact if no one in the tribe wants skill decay nukeing skills cuz they gotta upkeep. Yea really crappy idea. I simply don't like this system, As yes if a tribe my size was fully active, sure they can do it, But lets face it here, that's impossible. so the few who do stay active have to spec into these skills just to keep there tribe useable. and ddt, I know u cant possibly be agreeing with the notion of Locking out terraforming, building on tribes. Upkeep should be 100% for nothing but bonus's perks to work towards. Not perks we should ALREADY get with are friggin totems. Just think, new player sets a totem down, to build etc, he has to do upkeep first, then do the building, and for each building he adds Upkeep rises. Wth, bad bad system as you are taking the only thing going for xsyon and killing peoples ability to do it. Now I ant got much built on my tribe cuz I knew 1 day this wat used to be *suggestion* might hit the game. Now that it has its nuts. This system doesn't encourage trade. It encourages uninstalls..lol Im all for a upkeep systems that benefits people feeding it. But I am 100% against any that takes away a tribes ability to function. Why not have terraforming bonus's, Building bonus's. Ie make a building with say Intel boosts, well if upkeeps paid you will have a crafting building that gives those bonus's. Etc. I think this is the type of system needed Bonus's to reward those who do the work , and choose which bonus they want for wat they are doing. Remember this is a sandbox, Or was, anymore this sandpit is getting more n more limiting and not making it much fun. So neither Remove skill decay or change upkeep to where it is purely for bonus's, This is a crap ton of skills ingame that everyone would love bonus;s on. hell even have add Quality to items that you craft if your bonus is 100% I see more benefits and more people willing to feed it just for that. but to feed it for the rite to keep building, terraforming, im sorry, Just no way in hell. Taking that way and making it a daily chore is not gaming, its clocking into work just to play. No matter if its small or large. Hell id hate to see wat ur bill is ddt..lol

I agree with this for obvious reasons. As a large tribe with a lot of buildings, this is a complete game killer for us. $53,000.00 for Bonus upkeep so you can bet we won't be bothering with that. Goodbye Bonuses. 4313 Granite so goodbye to any future building. In good times our active roster is about 12-15 people and in low times about 5 or 6. This has cycle up and down for the past 9 months. As everyone knows the biggest problem with Xsyon is maintaining a good population. If there were thousands of people playing this totem concept would probably work just fine, however we have spent a year and a half trying to build an active community and alas Xsyon's current game model does not encourage people to join tribes, rather it encourages people to homestead.

It's already very difficult to get people in tribe because they can drop a totem and get more bonus as Leader than joining a tribe. Drop a totem and you can build your own place right off. Prior to free play any player you got in tribe expanded your tribe boundary. Now we invite, spend hours teaching, training, answering questions for 12 to 15 players just to get one that subs and might stay in tribe for a spell. We spend hours cleaning up all the left over baggage from the trial players who spend a few days to a week then quit. And the free to play doesn't seem to have increased the game population, it just made running a tribe more of a grind.

Now we will spend even more hours grinding just to continue something we have worked for a year and a half building and creating. I have been in business for many years and I learned a long time ago that you get much better results by rewarding hard work rather than punishment for the lack thereof. Most successful MMO's reward hard work with special items, abilities and status. This gives people an incentive to do the tough stuff and a feeling of accomplishment when they have succeeded. I can't recall any that use a punishment system for doing great stuff. That is how this feels. Build and create some incredible things and rather than reap the rewards for a great accomplishment, you have to pay. This is just one more nail in the coffin for large tribes and anyone who hopes to build a large tribe. I can say now without reservation, if this system goes in, we will move on to greener pastures.

Maybe it's just time for the large tribes to give up the fight. Heaven knows we have tried and I grow weary.

[Riverspirit]

I don't think we need totem upkeep at all. I don't see anything wrong with the current economy. The game needs more content, not more grinding just to do what we already do now. Please stop taking away and give something to us. If you need a sink for dollars, fine, but give a reward for putting money in the totem. Granite? No way. This is a very bad idea.

[Whorlok]

My Idea for Totem upkeep:
-lower the ammount of granite for smaller tribes
give Bonuses for filling all three trees
Bonus for the Tribe:
- respawn for each full tree a animal (chicken or random) at the Totem each day
Now the hardest Skill Bonecrafting is a little easyer for Beginner and one of the best rewards

[Drevar]

Since the construction upkeep is based on number of structures, I feel sorry for anyone who walled in their tribe with posts instead of regular walls....

[Xsyon]

Thanks for the comments so far, especially from those who provided data on time taken to gather resource amounts and presented suggestions for upkeep bonuses. That's the type of feedback I am looking for.

Please keep in mind, this is a system in progress and testing. The initial values were arbitrary until I could gather more data and information from you players.

Also, keep in mind that resources can and should be traded. Most of you are considering only grinding for upkeep resources. The goal is to give these resources that any player can gather additional value.

Consider this: currently in game there are over 25,000 schemes stockpiled, mostly by larger veteran tribes. One of the most frequent complaints to support is from new players that can't get their hands on these schemes. They have nothing of value to offer the veteran players with a surplus of schemes. With upkeep, now these new players can obtain something the veteran players value - time. Rather than grind for 100 currency, put some schemes up for sale. Rather than collect granite, purchase it from players with low upkeep costs. Trade totems will greatly facilitate these transactions.

With the current settings on the test server, the largest tribes in game will require 1000 upkeep over the course of 22 real days, that's a resource drain of 45 units per day, roughly the equivalent of building one mason wall per day. I think that's reasonable and my goal is to start with minimal costs and ramp up if needed.

Again, thank you for the suggestions and I will consider what additional bonuses are feasible.

[wastelandstoic]

I think its important to keep in mind that a large tribe does not actually mean lots of players. It means an accumulation of accounts over a long period of time. Speaking solely from my experience in Raven Moon this upkeep requirement will fall upon the same 2-4 people each day/week/month ect. This has the potential to add grind to grind to grind, taking time away from these players enjoyment of the game. It seems like bonuses (lots and varried) would be a better way to go rather than penalties through any upkeep system. The bottom line -if the upkeep requirements are nominal for a "large tribe" fine, if they become a hassle then I think we will see a stronger trend towards fewer if any larger tribes.

Xsyons point about resource trading is taken and hopefully that would be a plentiful and viable option..?

[MrDDT]

Thanks Xsyon, this will help economy.

I think getting 1k granite shouldnt be to hard. It takes me about 2 hours to gather granite for that. Every 22 days is very little time gathering granite.

I don't believe this will force trade for large tribes but it will be a start.

I still would like to see other bonuses using this upkeep system, and maybe even using other types of resources will give other types of bonus.

[Drevar]

I know we don't want to make it too complex, but my suggestion is to have a base upkeep determined by tribe type (homestead, band, clan, etc) and then add a nominal per person/structure amount after that. 1000 resources seems a bit low considering the land area available to a top tier tribe. I am wondering how structure decay will be affected by this in the future, as well.

[Riverspirit]

Consider this: currently in game there are over 25,000 schemes stockpiled, mostly by larger veteran tribes. One of the most frequent complaints to support is from new players that can't get their hands on these schemes.
Most of this stockpile is leather and tailoring schemes which are worthless. Architecture schemes are so rare that they can't be traded, they must be saved for tribe members. You are punishing people for being creative and building lots of structures. You should be rewarding people for that, since that makes the game fun. You shouldn't have to pay a penalty to build. I know our tribe does not have a bunch of schemes that anyone wants. They must be hidden away on other tribes. I think your numbers are skewed. I also think that $5300 every 22 days is far too excessive - and just for tribe stats? We subscribe to have fun and play the game. We don't subscribe to work to support some false economy that would never occur in a post-apocalyptic world.
The mechanism is also cumbersome. You can only add 20 granite at a time. So you have to do 50 additions just to fill it up. You should be able to stack it all in there. And what is the food for? And who are we paying? Why are we paying them? We are paying homage to the almighty totem? Seriously.... give us some animals to kill...

New players aren't leaving because they can't get schemes. They are leaving because the game needs content, especially now that the creature population is so low. If they are complaining to support about not finding schemes, they won't stay anyway, since they aren't willing to put forth the effort to get out there and scavenge enough nails to buy schemes or to find their own. Do you think they are willing to grind granite instead? I think not. Then how is the trade happening? The veteran players are going to run all over the world to gather this granite? The new players can't carry it to them.

I feel that your single-mindedness in this endeavor is disturbing, and that you are not listening to your customers very well. You need to focus on what would make the game more fun for everyone, not punish veteran players to appease new players. The veteran players won't comply, and will leave if you keep just taking things away from them. The new players that are complaining will leave - we see it all the time.

[unclean666]

The revised sink on both seem a lot better for starting this out as I dont see a need to start something like this off with huge numbers and can always be revised later when its had some time to get its feet on the ground in game.The off tribe stat bonus is better but I really would like something else besides stats as a reward/bonus for sinking the currency...I just dont want everything in the game to all be about stats..armor,animals/hunting,mats and bonuses.We have been told of this thing you call luck but tbh I dont think it does much if anything at all and even you say just slightly.Well this could be a way for you to work this thing called Luck into the game.Ill leave it at that I dont want to beat the subject to death.

The ally sys on trade totems seems interesting and helps/will help people find more of what there looking for and buy a lot maybe they wasent.It wasent what I had in mind for seeing others trade totems and sells without having to run blindly around the map just to even find a totem let alone what your looking for so its a great start and happy to see it.

And you are right about new players and recipes.I have come across that problem many many times when they need something I have but are new and dont have much to offer and have infact just had them pull granit or other labor type things for them.

[OrlandoKev]

I think its a great idea and if anything the new revised amount every 22 days is on the low side, however that was one of the suggestion i had that i did post, start out low, will be less of a stink raised by players and adjust it according to economy/ active player base over time. Can u do more with the concept as some players have suggested, sure there are lots of directions you could take with it either now or in future, but i believe you have a good base concept underway. There really isnt much of a current economy and i believe this in conjunction with the trade totems should hopefully change that at least some.

[OrlandoKev]

Fresh Log in to Test Server, totem upkeep at zero, added 43% of the granite and totem says i have terra and construction rights but when i try to terraform i get the "resource upkeep must be above 20% error" and when i try to build, i get the "resource upkeep must be above 40%". Tried logging in on different character to see if it was a relog thing, it was not. Also waited a good 30 minutes to see if it was some kind of time update issue, was not. Only thing that got it working was to fully stock to 100%

Update: It dropped below 100% and i can no longer terraform, back to the "resource upkeep must be above 20%" message

[MrDDT]

I think it would be helpful to add more than 1 stack of granite at a time, but it only took me 37s to add 1000 granite. (Just from my back to the totem), I dont believe its a major issue to take that long once every 22 game days.

I see you lowered the # of granite needed.

I would like to see other bonuses based on the items you place in the totem, and maybe only 1 bonus active at a time. Like option for "fishing" bonus which would say give 2x fishing speed.

Another would be increase 2x healing speed by adding foraged items.

Another would be increase hunting skill by +20 by adding animal bones.


Someone posted about adding content should be high on the list, I agree this is a major thing but I believe new players rarely feel this is the issue. I believe this economy issue is a huge issue on new and vets on what will "drive" them to do things and play. A sense of worth, and value on items is key.


Currently I believe the cost on the totem is a little low, but the whole system seems very good so far.

[Elric]

I agree with the statement that adding this upkeep is a bad idea. Why make it more difficult for a larger tribe to keep enjoying the game? If we have to start grinding materials just for the single purpose of "continuing what we are doing", then that's just a waste of time IMO. We don't want things that make a game feel more like "work".

Focus more on content IMO, less on finding ways to make the game more difficult.

EDIT: Regarding the above comment that new players don't necessarily need "more new content", I respectfully disagree. In general, people look at everything a game has to offer and then decide if they want to play it. You are less likely to find players that want to join a game with very little content; with hopes that someday there will be more to do. I think the evidence of that is the small and shrinking Xsyon community. Even though I don't personally care for Wurm Online, their community seems to be growing - and I would site the large amounts of added content as the source for that growth.

[MrDDT]

I agree Elric, however, I also believe this was needed to set the groundwork for economy. Economy in Xsyon has been broken from day 1. When the upkeep system even though its not fully fleshed out, it will set the groundwork for economy in the rest of the game and is greatly needed and required for the building blocks of the game.

Content is always great to add, and it will always add more players. Broken economy was one of the major reasons why it was so hard for new players to have a sense of worth.

For large tribes I believe the upkeep is really just a minor task, it takes very little effort to upkeep a large tribe when you have even just a handful of active members.

P.S. using "shrinking Xsyon community" as your evidence for or against something is very unlikely to be true. Xsyon has a LOT of content in the sandbox aspect, that its missing is reasons, and that drive.

[Dream]

I agree with the statement that adding this upkeep is a bad idea. Why make it more difficult for a larger tribe to keep enjoying the game? If we have to start grinding materials just for the single purpose of "continuing what we are doing", then that's just a waste of time IMO. We don't want things that make a game feel more like "work".

Focus more on content IMO, less on finding ways to make the game more difficult.

EDIT: Regarding the above comment that new players don't necessarily need "more new content", I respectfully disagree. In general, people look at everything a game has to offer and then decide if they want to play it. You are less likely to find players that want to join a game with very little content; with hopes that someday there will be more to do. I think the evidence of that is the small and shrinking Xsyon community. Even though I don't personally care for Wurm Online, their community seems to be growing - and I would site the large amounts of added content as the source for that growth.

I agree Elric. Our tribe has hosted well over 30 new players since free trial. They leave because there is nothing they can kill, nothing they can cook, nothing they can tame, nothing to do but grind. Now we will attempt to fix that by adding more grinding. Now new players can be the slaves of veteran players and gather their granite for them! What fun! None of those players expressed any concern about the economy. Granted, they were isolated from needing items they can't get, because our tribe takes care of people, but that is an awful lot of players that didn't stay because of the lack of content.

This effort won't fix anything. And it is enough that I just cancelled both my subscriptions. If it all pans out like it looks now, I probably won't renew them. The only way to actually introduce an economy into this game is to offer players something of value, not force an economy by introducing penalties for non-compliance. Something positive, something with rewards would go much further toward this goal. An NPC that sells mounts or buffs or something fun would stimulate it very quickly. Sure, it isn't sandbox, but this ludicrous new economy isn't either.

[Xsyon]

I will reiterate what is stated on the first post: The main purpose of this feedback thread is to find out what you players want from the upkeep system.

There is absolutely no need to fret about punishments or difficult grinds simply because of arbitrary amounts that were set on the test server or the current restrictions that are set so we can test functionality of the system. This is not presented as a final system ready for bug testing.

So please provide feedback on what you'd like to see in terms of bonuses and amounts. Trade Totems and the Upkeep system along with improved crafting need to be wrapped up and patched before I can continue with the agriculture system that many of you have seen in progress and cooking.

Thanks

[MrDDT]

I think the resources at the current ratio on test is good for large tribes. Doesn't seem that hard to get, and most large tribes already have these things stock piled.

For small or starting tribes I think its pretty low. 0 granite to start building, then after a few buildings its like 5 granite every 22 real days.

Currency Bonus:

I love the new currency upkeep bonus outside tribe area. I think its a minor bonus but people likely will still want the bonus.
The cost seems ok maybe a bit LOW for but it is a small effect (for my tribe its 9k Currency every 22 days for a +4 bonus to all stats outside tribe area, for all members)



I also think this upkeep is based on the current activity level of the game and tribes. Overtime when players are more active, and the game is more active, I believe this upkeep should be increased.
This is coming from a tribe with 90+ PAID accounts in it, yet only 10 active accounts. We can easily keep up with these upkeep costs for 6 months real time only part of a play day of gathering.
I expect if we had 50+ active accounts/members it would take less than 1min of each person a REAL MONTH to upkeep that, which means it would be way trivial to have an effect.

So in summary, I think the rates are good for putting in now, but if you looking for long term when the game is more active, they would be extremely low.

[tomduril]

.... An NPC that sells mounts or buffs or something fun would stimulate it very quickly. Sure, it isn't sandbox, but this ludicrous new economy isn't either.

I have to disagree with that - alone the idea that NPCs are part of a sandbox - its a repulsive idea!

The upkeep (as far as I see it) is instead of maintenaning every single "building part" of the buildings. So instead of walls crumbeling down, its more like keeping all your building parts intact by spending them to your magic totem ...
1000 of granite is probably too low for our tribe - something in the range of 4000-5000 would be appropiate with the number of buildings we have ;)

Something to further push trading would be the option to sell goods on the trade totem for upkeep specifically. So each transaction that is completed by someone, would add the resouces/currency directly to the upkeep.

I am not sure how this would be managed with the overstocking limit - but still it could provide an additional incentive to use the trade totem.

[Drevar]

I am wondering if the triviality of the upkeep will remain once the resources are based on structure type rather than just generic granite. Wood and grass are not easy to move in bulk, as you can only carry 1 log or 4 grass bundles. Requiring 88 large logs or something similar is a hell of a lot more work than 88 granite. I would like to see resource costs paid in processed goods, i.e. bricks, boards, etc., rather than raws. The amounts would still need to be balanced versus the various resource type as some (like processed grass) are more work than say bricks.

I any case upkeep as it is now is a non-issue for me. As a homesteader the stat bonus is negligible and I won’t be doing much more terraforming or building barring some incredible new structures being introduced.

Bonuses that would make upkeep worthwhile for me would be things like:
Increased health and stamina regen on tribe land
Repel revenants and/or animals from tribe land (remove/disable any AI path-finding nodes on tribal land)
Ability to expand tribe borders for a resource cost + increased upkeep
An alternative to the expanded borders would be an expanded zone of influence(ZOI) where we could terraform but not build.
Reduce or eliminate the penalty for finding rares on tribal land
Reduce or eliminate hunger and thirst degradation on tribal land (provisions maybe?)
Increase comfort, decrease structure decay rate (when implemented)

It would be great if we could pick and choose various bonuses to add to our totem which would modify the base upkeep. Give homesteads 3 slots, bands and clans 4,and tribe 5. We could then choose bonuses from the list allowing more customization. This would allow tribe-wide bonuses for individual attributes, skills, or even skill groups. You could even have a bonus that reduces upkeep costs, instead of giving a + bonus to something.

And just for the record, this BB's editing system sucks :p

[MrDDT]

Good stuff Drevar.

I really like the tribes have more than 1 choice at bonuses, this could also help to further specialize tribes trades (crafts, gathering etc).

[Whorlok]

i think a good Bonus for tribe is:

- upkeep 50% 1 normal Animal respawn at totem each day
- upkeep 50-100 % 2 normal Animal respawn at totem each day

Bonecrafter/Hunter need Bones..but i have found the last weeks 2 Animals!! with those Bonus we have a little ANIMALFARM which the crafter can hunt

[Frosth]

Hey there, I'm gonna build on top of other people's suggestion, trying to get deeper.

- Tribe leaders sets 3 potential specialization buffs for the tribe, the tribe members can select only one of them at a time.

- Buffs could be increased over the time they are selected by the tribe
Meaning that it will start at +xx and gain +y every real day or in game week. Maybe accelerated/slowed down by upkeep percentage value.
Rewarding dedication to a special play style and having tribes specializing.

- Pay for upkeep points with exponential values.
Meaning that it is cheap to have no malus(40%), average to get to 70%, and very hard to overstock to 100%

- Territory Size increased with overstocking.
It's been suggested a couple times in this thread already. I really like it.
In addition to the implementation of upkeep points, it will give some real long term goals and incentives to trade.
Or at the very least some sort of drive to play and keep investing time in the game.

[Aiden]

- Territory Size increased with overstocking.
It's been suggested a couple times in this thread already. I really like it.
In addition to the implementation of upkeep points, it will give some real long term goals and incentives to trade.
Or at the very least some sort of drive to play and keep investing time in the game.

I believe this would appeal to many players, especially homesteaders.

[Neo70]

Very good Idea ! +1

[fatboy21007]

since scavenging on the tribes u get a penality, How about instead of taking away terraforming and building rights. Toss in its place scavenging penalty removed and +10% scavenging bonus or something. To reward people overstocking there totems, Then ddts suggestion for hunting, healing . Upkeep should be 100% for bonus's and nothing else. The whole idea of the system should reward players encouraging them to trade and keep it fed. I got a lot of friends that wont touch this game hearing they can loose digin and building rights. Xsyon remember, goal here is to Give to community, not take. Reward people to stay.

As for the economy, it will never get in order until more players are ingame. Economy was great first few months of launch, didn't need none of this stuff as people constantly traded and was a pop to support it. The problem here isn't big tribes stock pileing, its the fact there isn't enough people ingame to keep a real economy going. When the econ was at full force people traded w/e to get wat they needed and it worked great. So make upkeep about bonus's even give these smaller tribes a chance to expand to get as big as the bigger as long as they feed the upkeep. But the game needs content and more of it, Farming and crafting changes is in the rite direction, but you got a ways to go yet. So for upkeep, do 20% is a 5m upgrade to any deed, 40% 10m and 70% 15m and 100% 25m. (currency seems fiting for this also tie in tribe, leader buffs to it.

Then for resources, remove terraforming and building from that, Put Scavenging pentalty removed 10% scav bonus(also give all members a 5% bonus to find rare mats outside the tribe), 2% healing rat 10% to hunting (this is at 100%) provisions 5% boost to all crafts at 20% 10% at 40% then 15% at 70% and 25% at 100%. See now with this type of system, itll work, the hunting, healing buffs will work off tribe lands also giving every1 better hunting etc. This is wat I hope to see with upkeep as this system 100% rewards all players ingame for making the efforts and might even get a few to stay a bit longer as then new players might stand a chance against some animals.

[Riverspirit]

As for the economy, it will never get in order until more players are ingame.

I agree fatboy. Give players something fun to do and they will stay in game. Then the economy will take care of itself. I like all of your ideas for stat bonuses in place of the penalties that are currently planned.

[caldrin]

OK i am pretty new here.. me and a few mates recently started playing.. Tho of coruse i did play in beta and initally at release.. but stopped not long after due to the fact it took 30 mins to load in at the location of my base lol.. anyway.

Why is this feature needed.. why force people to put time into upkeep? wont this put people off from playing?

I have probally totally missed a post that covers the reasons for having this in game.. if so i appologise in advance..

[Riverspirit]

Why is this feature needed.. why force people to put time into upkeep? wont this put people off from playing?

I have probally totally missed a post that covers the reasons for having this in game.. if so i appologise in advance..

Welcome Caldrin. Yes, it will put people off from playing unless it yields rewards we wouldn't normally have. Hopefully they will take it in that direction, and remove the penalties it would now impose.

It is nice to hear the viewpoint of a new player on this issue. :)

Come visit us at Raven Moon some day.

[caldrin]

Yeah it does seem like a very strange thing to bring in considering there are not that many people actually playing the game.

Whats your location.. could always take a trip over exploring one night.. my tribe Pain Killers are based in 981 for now as we are still all pretty new to this.

[MrDDT]

Welcome Caldrin. Yes, it will put people off from playing unless it yields rewards we wouldn't normally have. Hopefully they will take it in that direction, and remove the penalties it would now impose.



Yeah it does seem like a very strange thing to bring in considering there are not that many people actually playing the game.

Whether or not a few or a lot of people are playing doesn't really matter. It's a much needed feature to give totems and the things they give worth. It will also give currency and granite (later other things like provisions) worth or more worth.

In fact, its likely better to do when few people are playing than with a lot of people are playing effecting less people. People don't like change even when its for the better sometimes. Like you said you believe you are already entitled to these bonuses without having to upkeep or pay for them. Those kinds of change are always hard to swallow but they are for the betterment of the game.

Instead of tossing out the idea as a whole, why not put out an amount of upkeep you think is reasonable? Which Xsyon has asked for a few times in this thread.

[caldrin]

what is the reason for the upkeep tho.. where does this money go?

It would be better off if buildings just decayed over time and now and then you would just need to use resources on said building to repair it.. You could then base the stat bonus off the state of your buildings and so on.. IF you dont repair the building then they will just fall down maybe leaving some of the base materials but not all of them.. that way there is a good reason to maintain the buildings..

As for the use of money... if tribes started to accept money as payment for items and so on then it would have a use.. but that knid of thing is hard to get going i guess..

I still dont think its a good idea either way.. i know they payments wont be much for small calns but it will still be a forced grind to keep everyting as it is now.. i just think it will scare people away a bit..


I could be totally wrong tho.. im new to this game so i cant really comment..

[MrDDT]

I think you missed the main question. Not whether or not it should be put in, but how much resources it should take or would be too much or too little etc.

About where the money goes? Who knows.

About having the building's decay, you think it would be better running around checking each architecture part to see if it needs to be repaired, and the mats types you would need for each one?
I would much rather have a single place and item to look at and upkeep than having to run around checking each architecture part and repairing it. I also have parts of my buildings I cant even reach.

Tribes won't use currency unless it useful or something. This is giving it a use for everyone in the game, not just a few special crafters.

[caldrin]

Yeah maybe i was thinknig a bit small.. my tribe base only has a few buildings haha i guess the bigger ones have tons..

Hopefully your right... but its basically making money only good for 1 thing and i guess that was not the initial idea behind having currency in game..

Anyway i do hope your right and it does not push more people away from this game, as with some work i think it could be really good.

As for how many resources it should take? as little as possible i guess so that people dont feel forced into playing the game just for the upkeep..

[Riverspirit]

Yeah it does seem like a very strange thing to bring in considering there are not that many people actually playing the game.

Whats your location.. could always take a trip over exploring one night.. my tribe Pain Killers are based in 981 for now as we are still all pretty new to this.

I agree with you caldrin, I don't like the idea, not even a little bit. I agree the amount of resources should be very small. $100 or 100 granite max. Otherwise it takes away from the fun of the game, and people will leave if they are forced to do this. Xsyon has to stop taking things away and start making the game fun again. Yes, I feel that things I have been doing for free for 2 years should still be free to do. If I am paying upkeep for extra bonuses, I agree with that. Don't make me pay to terraform and build, since that is just wrong.

Anyway, caldrin, we are at 696 450 950. Just /w Riverspirit in game if you are coming to visit some day and we can show you around.

[tomduril]

I have to agree with Mr. DDT here.

The amount of upkeep needed sets the "value" of currently worthless dollars, quarters, pennies, bottlecaps and *thestuffiforgotabout*.

So if it is 100 dollars per month - dollars won`t be worth much. It it would be 1000 dollars per day, most tribes will probably just ignore the bonus. So a reasonable price has to be found. Still you have to consider that large quanities are available in the game and after those have been spend the "real" worth will emerge.

With the ability to choose your own currency (one out of 6) we will see a dynamic "currency" market with tribes that need more upkeep eventually switching currency to get a "cheaper" upkeep. After a while the currencies will stabilize and we will see how it all turns out. Because of the resource distribution I expect that local area currencies (stuff that you find a lot in your junk pile) could emerge.

Where do the resources/currencies go?
-----------------------------------------------
Ask yourself: Who/What protects your land/baskets, who/what provides the bonuses on your tribe land? - Maybe its just believe and imagination that protects/buffs you, you feel safe ... and maybe you need to spend currency at your totem to keep this believe?!? Or it is magic ... but what is the difference? Is there a difference between believe and magic? For me the important thing is that it works - and my stuff is protected from all the greedy folk running around and that the ~400 wooden posts and 200 granite walls are not rotting in the hash environment :D
-----------------------------------------------
My suggestion: 250 currency per realtime week.
for mid sized tribes (>40 <80)- roughly 1000 currency per xsyon season
for clans (upto 5) - 130 currency per xsyon season
for huge tribes (>80) - 1500 currency per xsyon season
20 currency per player/season - something about that line (less depending on the number of players ...)

22 currency per player/season upto 10 players in tribe
20 currency per player/season upto 30 players in tribe
18 currency per player/season upto 50 players in tribe
17 currency per player/season upto 60 players in tribe
16 currency per player/season upto 70 players in tribe
15 currency per player/season more than 70 players in tribe

Pawnee = 64 players in tribe = 1088 curr/season

With 14.000 dollars in my tribes baskets this would last for about 12 x-seasons (xsyon seasons) - 3 x-years - 27 realtime(rt) weeks ~ 1/2 rt year.

[ryanargu]

I believe this is a great idea to spice up the economy. A sink is very much needed, then more players will interact with each other, setting a strong foundation for this game to increase its player base.

Not only would it encourage large tribes to trade carts, tools, recipes, etc. But, it'll also punish them for stockpiling things that newer members need as they'll have to collect the upkeep themselves.

This will cause homesteaders to become more resourceful through player interaction(something this game is serious lacking), and not cause them to quit because no one wants to trade a saw blade with them(because large tribe don't need anything most of the time). However, this will also make joining large tribes less of a need.


I think the sacrifice is well worth the rewards, the buffs are an added bonus!

[Xsyon]

The patch is out and this thread is now closed. Thanks for all the feedback!