Feedback Request 03/29/2013 - Crafting Revisions

[Xsyon]

Crafting revisions are open for public testing. Please provide any feedback, bug reports or other issues here.

Crafting Panel
- Crafting panel now has a search box to filter schemes by name.
- Multiple items can be crafted in a row by setting an amount to craft (currently up to 20 for stackable items and up to 5 for non stackable items).

Improvements
- Item quality revised to a maximum of 125 supreme quality.
- Item quality number now displays in item icon information tooltip after the quality level.
- Tools affect skill of the player instead of adding directly to the item quality. This provides higher bonuses to higher skilled players and less effects for lower skilled players.

Armor
Armor scheme components categorized:
- Primary Material
- Secondary Material (Artisan and Master sets only)
- Fastener
- Primary Decoration
- Secondary Decoration

Artisan and Master armor sets are composed of more components thus having the potential of holding more and higher armor bonuses.

Armor stat bonuses revised.
- Armor can hold up to a maximum of 5 stat bonuses.
- With each additional bonus, the overall stat bonus total limit is increased, but divided among the applied bonuses. For example an armor set can use one stat bonus at maximum power (near +40 stat points for one stat, or 5 bonuses at a lower value for each stat (total of near 70 stat points).

Armor decays in combat when hit, based on the location of the hit.

Materials
- Plastic materials added.
- Additional plastic components added.
- Additional metal materials added.
- Crafting components revised so that some parts used in schemes can be metal or plastic (such as decorations).

Update April 3 2013
- Stack limits revised to enable full use of crafting multiple items at one time.
- Leather scraps can be sewn together to create Leather.
- Leather can be cut into leather scraps.
- Materials added to many components that were not getting materials applied when found (scavenged or sorted).
- New crafted components (such as leather fringe and piping) functional.
- Overall stat bonuses limit on worn armor removed. Individual per part limits applied that fit the new system.

Update April 15 2013
- Tools apply quality bonuses based on the specific tool group.
-- Forager tools affect Forager tools and Basketry.
-- Trapper tools affect Trapper tools and Bonecraft.
-- Pioneer tools affect Pioneer tools and Leathercraft.
-- Scrapper tools affect Scrapper tools and Tailoring.
- Tools no longer apply duration bonuses.
- Beads combined to use one bead scheme (in Masonry)
- Feldspar added as a rare material on Basalt surfaces.

Notes for future patches
- Grass craft still needs some improvement.
- Weapons will be revised next to apply useful combat bonuses and not stats.
- Additional non stat armor bonuses will be applied later.

Testing

If you notice problems with any of the following, please respond on this thread.

- Are there any stack limits that should be increased to allow for crafting the full amount (20 or 5) of a recipe?

- Are any new found objects (scavenged or sorted) missing materials (plastic, metal, cloth)?

- Are any crafted objects not getting the correct bonuses applied from materials? End products (armor right now) should get full bonuses applied. Component parts (for example, thread) should get just the material passed.

- Is tool quality having a noticeable effect? Should it have a greater effect?

- Are there any critical or obvious issues that you notice?

[Drevar]

Just now getting in to try this out. Its what I've been waiting for going on two years now. LOL.

The multiple crafting is great, but could we maybe get a checkbox for "practice" where all the normal checks, resource burn, tool decay, xp gain etc are done but no item is created? This would eliminate having to delete grind items one at a time, and would help the database by not hitting it with item create and delete transactions.

Multiple crafting with stackables where the limit is up to 20 will need some revisions on resource stacks. Items like string which require 10 thread will need 200 total thread to complete, which is impossible since the thread stacks are limited to 100 and you can only work with one stack of thread at a time.

I am wondering how the durability tools were affected, as quality is no longer a bonus. Why would you use say a scrapper tool over a pioneer tool now? Also, why would one want to use different material types like brass screws vs iron screws if the stat bonuses don't affect tools?

Small quirk with multi-crafting: If you select your resource stacks first, then change the amount to craft you have to reselect the resources so it fills in all the new requirements fully.

Crafted grass fabric has no bonuses inherent to it. Scavenged (color) grass cloth and scraps do still have camo and spirit, but cannot be used in grass recipes.

Cloth can be cut into scraps to bump its quality up before being turned into thread. Grass has no such mechanic.

I was able to find cloth lining while scavenging. It had no bonuses, but wouldn't you want to limit intermediate goods to being crafted only?

[MrDDT]

Crafting revisions are open for public testing. Please provide any feedback, bug reports or other issues here.

Crafting Panel
- Crafting panel now has a search box to filter schemes by name.
- Multiple items can be crafted in a row by setting an amount to craft (currently up to 20 for stackable items and up to 5 for non stackable items).

I love the search box.
I love the option to craft more than 1 item per click stacking. Can we get an option to type in the number of crafts (like most options like splitting a stack) instead of using arrows only?



Improvements
- Item quality revised to a maximum of 125 supreme quality.
- Item quality number now displays in item icon information tooltip after the quality level.
- Tools affect skill of the player instead of adding directly to the item quality. This provides higher bonuses to higher skilled players and less effects for lower skilled players.

I love the increased QL options, good to see that.
Love the display QL levels.

This effecting our skill vs QL of the item. If we have 100 skill does it give us a bonus?
Are tools still split into 2 groups? +QL and +Dura for the type of tool?



Armor
Armor scheme components categorized:
- Primary Material
- Secondary Material (Artisan and Master sets only)
- Fastener
- Primary Decoration
- Secondary Decoration

Artisan and Master armor sets are composed of more components thus having the potential of holding more and higher armor bonuses.

Armor stat bonuses revised.
- Armor can hold up to a maximum of 5 stat bonuses.
- With each additional bonus, the overall stat bonus total limit is increased, but divided among the applied bonuses. For example an armor set can use one stat bonus at maximum power (near +40 stat points for one stat, or 5 bonuses at a lower value for each stat (total of near 70 stat points).

Armor decays in combat when hit, based on the location of the hit.

Much easier to understand now with the mats split up like that.
Like the Artisan/Master recipes now giving them worth.

Love the new armor stat system. I see it's still not working perfectly but good to see it in the works. Looks like some of the stats are not transferred correctly to the item.

Have not tested decay, but good to see its being worked on. Before it was really low decay and only under armor got effected first.



Materials
- Plastic materials added.
- Additional plastic components added.
- Additional metal materials added.
- Crafting components revised so that some parts used in schemes can be metal or plastic (such as decorations).

Is plastic going to have bonuses?

I noticed that some of the metal stats were changed (Chrome is AGI now) is this meant to be that way? Some of these metals were very rare.



Notes
- Crafting changes are not complete and I am working out a few bugs.
- Weapons will be revised next to apply useful combat bonuses and not stats.
- Additional non stat armor bonuses will be applied later.
- The system is set up to allow for higher stat bonuses as additional influencing factors get added in the future.

Some of the components are not working in the recipes (I've yet to be able to make master items because of it)
IE. Fringe, Leather Piping

Also looks like weapons wont have stats?

[Drevar]

You've probably noticed by now, but plastics do indeed have different stat bonuses for each "type". Some of the plastic stuff doesn't have bonuses yet, like handles, blocks, boards, etc. I would hope at least the handles get bonuses to use on weapons.

[MrDDT]

You've probably noticed by now, but plastics do indeed have different stat bonuses for each "type". Some of the plastic stuff doesn't have bonuses yet, like handles, blocks, boards, etc. I would hope at least the handles get bonuses to use on weapons.

Thanks for the info, I was only using my stored plastic stuff which have no stats. I went scaven and there are new stats on it. More sorting to do for me hehe.

[Xsyon]

Could we maybe get a checkbox for "practice" where all the normal checks, resource burn, tool decay, xp gain etc are done but no item is created? This would eliminate having to delete grind items one at a time, and would help the database by not hitting it with item create and delete transactions.

To clarify: practice mode would simply not create an object? Thus it's the same effect of crafting and deleting the objects in one step, correct?

I am wondering how the durability tools were affected, as quality is no longer a bonus.

I'll explain the change better: Tools still provide a quality bonus. Previously it was a direct bonus to quality (such as +10 quality). Now it increases the player's skill by a percent, which in turn raises the quality of the end product. Players with higher skill will receive more of a bonus from tool.

I am considering revising tools to apply a quality bonus in all cases, rather than either a quality or duration bonus. Specific tools will effect specific end products, for example Foragers tools would affect the quality of Basketry and Bonecraft products.

If we have 100 skill does it give us a bonus?

Yes, skill can be effectively bumped up beyond 100 with the tool bonuses.

I noticed that some of the metal stats were changed (Chrome is AGI now) is this meant to be that way?

Yes. We are going to update the distribution of all objects and materials. We have a much better visual tool to help with this now.

Also looks like weapons wont have stats?

Weapons will have other combat related bonuses. Those will be next up on the Test Server.

[MrDDT]

Thanks for all the answers and info. Looking forward to the next round of testing. I will be testing this current one later today.

[tomduril]

Wow - I did not have time for testing - but just from looking at the description - WOW :)

[Drevar]

In response to the practice clarification, yes, that is exactly what I mean. The effect would be the same as a creation and deletion in one step, but without the actual create/delete actions so as not to hit the database as much.

Kind of wondering about the need to change Very High quality name to Superior. In my own mind Superior would rank above Premium. I would have chosen Exceptional if a new name was really needed. I was perfectly fine with Very High, though. The Master/Master thing definitely needed a change, so Premium quality works there.

I may just not have found the proper mound yet (resource redistribution), but I have yet to figure out how to acquire some items like beads or metal rings.

All of the plastic item types appear to be generating properly with their material types now.

Was thread, string, etc. intended to inherit the bonus from cloth? If so this is a huge change to the crafting dynamic (trying to match the proper thread with the material types so as not to dilute the bonus, etc.) In any case, the bonus from the thread is only passed on when it is used in a final product. Intermediate products like lining and fringe do not pass on the bonus from the thread, only it's primary resource bonus.

Tools seem a bit weak. I tried some leather and cloth crafting. Using the same QL materials and only swapping out one tool, the difference between a normal QL 57 Pioneer tool and a Supreme Master Pioneer tool was a whopping +5 QL difference in the final product. For stat bonuses I tested some leather using Aramid (Dex) thread and Mule deer leather (+fort). The difference in the final products using the same tools as above was +.05 Fort and +.01 Dex with the Supreme Master tool over the QL 57 normal tool. Again, less than stellar. The tests I ran were on normal tier items, since I don't have the Artisan or Master versions of the armors to see if a higher tier takes on more of the bonus by default or not. Also tried the same materials using newly created tools, same effect. Adding a second master pioneer tool at 96 QL to the mix (both tools now Master Pioneer) the final QL stayed the same and only the Fort bonus went up by an additional .02. There seemed to be no difference with old tools or new, so the difference is in the sim calculation it appears, not any specific trait of the tools themselves. In making the new tools to test with I also noticed I could no longer achieve Supreme quality with the materials I had previously been able to, so effect of the % of skill bonus is indeed less than the original flat +quality.

[Drevar]

One small annoyance is back. When you craft an item the scheme list resets back to the top. Your active selection remains, so you can keep crafting, but meh, just feels "wrong".

[GuideIsda]

Drevar, just a quick note to say beads are crafted through masonry - I havent found any metal rings either though, so can't help on that one.

[MrDDT]

Great job Drevar, from what you posted I agree with your info. I wish I had time to test this week but I just don't.


About the naming of the QL levels, as long as there is no confusion I'm OK with however its being done. I did/do agree that changing "master" for QL to something else was a great idea.

[Drevar]

Yeah the current QL tier progression goes Superior->Premium->Supreme. I can see a bit of confusion when one quick glances at stacks, even with the numerical quality displayed.

Thanks, Isda, I'll check out the beads. I always want something more for woodworking and keep checking that for changes, but didn't even think about masonry.
Looking at the beads now, I was a bit surprised. I was guessing it would be a single bead scheme that took "rock" and would have different properties based on what type of stone it was. Instead it is a different scheme for each type of rock, and no difference between them except the name and icon.

On another note, as something that ties in with the next update, innards are going to be extremely valuable as both a fertilizer for farming and being needed for the new catgut cord, etc. I hope there will be more sources for either fertilizer or innards.

[wastelandstoic]

On another note, as something that ties in with the next update, innards are going to be extremely valuable as both a fertilizer for farming and being needed for the new catgut cord, etc. I hope there will be more sources for either fertilizer or innards.

Bingo!

At some point the animal population is going to have to be addressed. We should not have to go to one or two zones in the far north of the map for all our hunting needs. Too many skills are tied to this. <waiting patiently>

Crafting additions look great.

[MrDDT]

Yeah Wastelandstoic, people have been saying it for years.

I hope they increase the animals around the world, there are many many issues with them, not just the # of them.

[cerveau]

Its being mentioned to have a PRACTICE MODE for crafting.

I would strongly advise against this because it makes so easy to create a MACRO and macro
your way to Max skill.

This is exactly what happoned in SWG. There was a practice mode.
You used all the Materials in the craft but end item was not created.

This makes it incredibly easy to create a macro because you dont have to deal with bag slots
filling up with created items.

Im not saying players will use macros, but why make it a lot easier for them to automate grind
and achieve max skill with little effort.

as soon as i saw the Practice Mode it immediately reminded me of SWG and the problem they had.

[MrDDT]

Wouldn't you still need to gather the mats? That's where most of the time spent is anyways, deleting the items is very quick now. I simply put them in a basket (it auto crafts in the basket already if its empty and on your back) and drop the basket and delete it.

[OrlandoKev]

QL tier progression goes Superior->Premium->Supreme - I believe is going to cause ALOT of confusion, i can understand changing the master name, but why change VHQ name and cause confusion at all. in my mind as a old man in the USA, the word superior holds a much higher value than the word premium. The similarity of the words superior and supreme is just too close which will cause even more confusion and complaints.

At a quick look at some of my master tools, some still show alot of stats that arent in game yet on tooltip, other dont show them (which is good) and show things like "Increases Quality of Pioneer and Leathercraft" instead, which is great, but looking at half dozen pioneer master tools, half show one way, others show other way. Either they show the unused stats or they show the new "increases quality of", so assuming you are still in process of updating tooltips for tools?

Why show quality on items where quality is not a factor at all, example: schematics -

I see you have cleared all the currently unused stats off things like cloth (a very good thing) but notice camoflauge is still listed. I personally think that the game having so many things listed that "dont work, or arent implemented yet" makes the game look bad, not good. so i am happy to be seeing some of the dont work or arent implemented being removed or hidden. Players get too hung up on "what isnt working or implemented" than they do on "ALL" that does work and has been implemented, its human nature. Comfort and Faith bars are something you might consider hiding until closer time of implementation as well as all the tool tip info you seem to already be working on removing. I hate having to constantly say "it doesnt work, or "doesnt work yet" over and over and over to new players, but as long as that stuff is showing, they will continue to constantly focused on "what doesnt work". Thats my "opinion" as i dont see it as good for business.

Please show what skill a schematic is even for on the tooltip, required skill level would be nice also but not as important as which skill it is for to begin with. Already Known in tool tip also would be really nice feature. Dealing with schematics is one of the bigger nightmares in the game as it is and now you are more than tripling the amount of schematics. Short of memorizing every schematic or category of schematics, the only way to even know what skill it is for is to try to learn it, and if u happen to be at max learnable schemes, you have to look it up every time to see if u know it or not "and thats if you even know what skill it belongs to in the first place" I dont even want to get started on trying to organize and store schemes :(

Makes me sad to see the supreme charm cloth i have been saving for the patch changing to spirit stat, but something lke that i can just laugh off.

In regards to choosing the increased skill as totem bonus, is this going to be indicated anywhere or just going to be a hidden factor? Also assuming the change to tools adding to skill level, will this be indicated anywhere or a hidden factor?

Just noticed a substantial drop in my stats, so comparing stats on pre-existing armor from live server and test server and see that on the test server, stats are lower on this pre-existing gear, is this intentional? Dont want to discuss combat related stat info in forum so lets use spirit as a example instead, in the same set of armor, i have 7.1 less spirit on the test server and comparing one piece of armor, a helm. On live server it shows 3.90 spirit on tooltip, now i know a helm has max of 2.00 stat, so in my opinion it shouldnt show more than max, but on test server the stat has dropped to 1.44 from the 3.90 which is pretty big drop.

I mentioned this a long time ago to Hael, but not positive it got back to you, there is a good chance the word transient is going of offend some free players, transient is a word we commonly use for homeless people, bums on the street etc.

[Drevar]

Which tool type will affect weapon crafting, bow crafting, scrap crafting? None affect construction skills or intermediate materials like bricks or woodworking materials? At the highest levels of skill and tool quality, there needs to be enough of a bonus to push a final product (armor, weapons, etc) from low Premium to Supreme in order to compensate. If not, then there was no reason to bump the QL cap on items to 120 as no one will be ever able to reach that level even with all natural Supreme materials.

Limiting the bonuses to specific final craft types pretty much obsoletes a ton of tools. I believe there will be enough "not needed" tools that the scheme cap will pretty much be ignored. I wouldn't bother to keep any Artisan or Master tools besides the ones that provide a bonus for a specific craft and those required to make the tools themselves. Why bother with the Master Scrapper's leather tools when the only ones that matter are the Pioneer ones?

[MrDDT]

Few things I noticed already.

Stats are not unlocked or displayed correctly. Item says +2.37 bonus to DEX only gives +1.

Another thing I noticed is that things like "Leather Strap" has a bonus listed on it (new and cool thanks) and carries the stat over to the item being crafted, but "Cloth Thread" has it displayed that it has a bonus but doesnt carry the bonus to the item.

Some of the tools do not display the bonus for the Quality (+20) that was updated in the change. Its very hard to see if that bonus is working.

I can confirm that tribe skill bonus is working.

It also looks like there is no way to get +40 to 1 stat even making master armor types. Using the best mats it always comes out to low. Might check again after the locks are removed but so far I don't see how it can be done.

[MrDDT]

Which tool type will affect weapon crafting, bow crafting, scrap crafting? None affect construction skills or intermediate materials like bricks or woodworking materials? At the highest levels of skill and tool quality, there needs to be enough of a bonus to push a final product (armor, weapons, etc) from low Premium to Supreme in order to compensate. If not, then there was no reason to bump the QL cap on items to 120 as no one will be ever able to reach that level even with all natural Supreme materials.

Limiting the bonuses to specific final craft types pretty much obsoletes a ton of tools. I believe there will be enough "not needed" tools that the scheme cap will pretty much be ignored. I wouldn't bother to keep any Artisan or Master tools besides the ones that provide a bonus for a specific craft and those required to make the tools themselves. Why bother with the Master Scrapper's leather tools when the only ones that matter are the Pioneer ones?


I disagree about the 120 (its 125 btw) topic you listed. I can see a reason even if you can't reach 125 it's nice to have a goal that's out there. So far there is no case where I can't see that it helps. Everything can be increased over 100 so far I've found.


About the tools, I agree we getting a little carried away think on how tools are working. I love the idea but its getting into balance issues and reasons like you said. There are 4 types of bone tools that are only used in bone crafting why would you use anything other than trappers? Or like you said the "leather tools" which are only used in leather why would you use anything other than pioneer?
The only reason might be ease of access to mats, but even then it's not that easy.

[Xsyon]

The patch is out and this thread is now closed. Thanks for all the feedback!