Feedback Request 05/14/2013 - Creatures

[Xsyon]

Please provide any feedback regarding the current state of creatures right now.

Please give feedback specifying groups of creatures (small, medium, large) or individual creatures and consider the age and power range of creatures.

In particular I would like to get a feel from players regarding:

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?
Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?
Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?
HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?
Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?

In general I have a good idea of what needs to be adjusted. However, I am asking for additional feedback to confirm and make sure I'm not missing anything.

I will post a new thread after adjustments have been made.

Thanks

[MrDDT]

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?
Way to slow.
I liked it before that they could gain HP from being in combat (not just killing people) and over time, and killing people.

Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?
Most are too fast.
Small animals are very fast and mostly for new players which are slow. I think in real life they should be fast, but this isnt real life. New players need something to be able to kill and not run away all the time.
Larger animals also have aggro issues. They will randomly break off some players to attack someone. This would be fine if there were ways to defend yourself or ranged attacks.

Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?
Most animals are pretty good for aggression I believe.
They seem to run away to much though, I think many of them wont fight and just run away. I like the older way where they ran away once they got to like 20%. I think some animals should run away, but being they are to fast.

HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?
I think the HP of large animals are fine, small animals need to have MUCH less. Rabbits shouldnt have more HP than starting players. 5 to 30HP for a rabbit is fine.
Biggest issue is the lack of ways to heal in combat, or gain energy back in combat. Animals (and Revs) heal very rapid while out of combat. Faster than most players. Having a way to bandage or heal in combat would help this. Without that, I would say their HP is too high.

Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?
I think small animals hit a bit to hard. I've seen rabbits hitting rapidly for 5 dmg per attack. Rabbits are a starting animal and a new player with 30 to 50HP would die in seconds, before even learning how to swing the weapon.
Biggest issue power is the lack of ways to heal in combat, or gain energy back in combat. Animals (and Revs) can hit very hard, 60+ to armor targets. Harder than most players. Having a way to bandage or heal in combat would help this. Without that, I would say their power is to much, giving them more HP and a LOT less damage could balance this.

[DrWun]

I haven't hit an animal yet. I've only seen dogs, cats, and one mule deer. I've been playing for about a week, and have been in several places. I rerolled to check out different landing spots, zones and builds for the first few days. I came here bored to tears with endless kill, maim, torture role play and pvp games, so I'm happy. I can't wait till I can tame a pack of dogs and say, "Sick 'em!" rofl

[darkskil]

I 100% agree with DDT. Also I haven't seen much more animals. I also think that like revs should should be different levels of animals mainly for the larger animals. For example have the harder best deer and bears in high danger then some alright ones in medium but I do not think they should be in low areas

[wastelandstoic]

Very much agree with DDT's response here especially in regards to the lack of healing and energy regen at present to be taken into consideration here. I'll give my own feedback as well on this essential topic.

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?

Too slow. But, I like being able to find groups of animals with different hp's. So, perhaps a varying rate might work? With 115 hp I cannot take an adult deer or bear so if I'm hunting solo I should, without too much difficulty, be able to find an adolescent deer that I can take. A range of different hp animals will allow all skill level and number of players to hunt the staple creatures (Deer, Bear, and Coyotes) and have a degree of success.

Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?

In general too fast. Definitely agree that small animals are too fast. Larger animals just a tad. Hunting a small mule deer this past week with a full set of bone armor and the spoils from one other kill on me the deer was almost outrunning me (100 run). After sprinting to catch it with a first hit and fighting it until it decided to run I have only a few swings before I'm out of energy and it gets away.

Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?

For the most part aggression seems ok. It varies per creature and that’s a nice touch. The marmots and pine martins are the kings of small animal attitude. :)

HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?

I agree that some of the smallest animals have too many hps. I'd like to see hps shaved off the two extremes smallest and largest leaving midpoint alone but that's speaking as a solo and small group player.

Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?

Agree small animals can hit a bit hard especially mutant small animals. Yes they are mutant so they are tougher but some mutant squirrels seem to hit like adult bears and have a crazy range on them for being so small.

*Also agree all animals heal too fast. On the larger and mutant animals this is extremely frustrating and offten times makes them unkillable.*


Looking forward to finding sufficient populations of larger animals down south before too long. Thanks for the attention on the animal issues!

[darkskil]

Also you should put more animals in the 861 area ;) you should also fix the fact that animal and revs can speed up a steep hill you can't even walk over

[Jayson]

I think animals are too fast. Especially for new players. Even when the creature has an empty energy bar it's still too fast.

I also think animals should be limited the way players are limited and should not be able to sprint up 90 degree slopes at all, let alone doing it at 50 miles an hour. Just my 2 cents.

[wastelandstoic]

Ah, yes, while animals should navigate terrain better than people a sheer cliff is a sheer cliff. It should be impassable to both.

[MrDDT]

I think animals are too fast. Especially for new players. Even when the creature has an empty energy bar it's still too fast.

I also think animals should be limited the way players are limited and should not be able to sprint up 90 degree slopes at all, let alone doing it at 50 miles an hour. Just my 2 cents.

I think allowing players to have a "climb" option which uses up 3x more energy than normal to go up would fix this. This would also fix a lot of stuck issues.

Another thing is that if animals were to have energy that stopped them from sprinting all the time and running hills would fix some of those issues.

[ryanargu]

Everything DDT said is exactly how I feel about animals.

I think there should be a smooth learning curve from newbs to vets most importantly.

Easy:
hamsters, rabbits, squirrels, chickens and cats

Medium:
pine martins, marmots and dogs

Hard:
mutant critters, raccoons and coyotes

Very hard:
mutant raccoons/coyotes, mule deers and bears

Extreme:
mutant mule deer and bears


Something like that would make a lot more sense and stop the 'lolol i waz killd by hamster wtf'.

[Naia]

I'm a new player, so naturally I don't have much experience whit hunting or skills to fight high level creatures yet.
Nevertheless, here's my opinion.

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?
They seem to age too slow. However since nearly all the bigger animals (bear, deer, coyote) were born at the same time, the situation might look different in a few weeks when they have grown up. Perhaps the "near instinction breading" could also trigger a "rapid growth" to faster bring the population back up

Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?
Too fast.
It's very difficult for new players to find something to hunt. The only thing I seem to be able to hunt reliably, are chickens. Everything else, is either too strong or too fast.

I would suggest a few of the small creatures, like hamsters and rats, have their speed reduced.
That would give people a place to start and work their way up without making it too easy.

The mid level creatures should have their speed reduced to be more equal a player in armour and carrying some weight, as it would be in a typical hunting situation.
The largest creatures could be made a bit faster (harder) or stay as they are.

Behaviour: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?
Animals run away to much.
It's fine that some of the small animals, like squirrels run, that makes the world feel alive, but many of the stronger mid level creatures, like all the ~280 hp chaos hares don't have to run. Perhaps they could be made less likely to run, but still not aggressive unless attacked, then they would either fight back or run.
For the stronger ones, like bears and deer's, from what I have seen so far they run too, but most of them are still babies whit 100 - 120 hp, so if they are just running now because they are small that's fine. But of course a 300 - 400 hp bear should run towards you, rather than away.

I have also noticed that many of the animal babies seem to stay close to where they have spawned and stay together in packs. This is fine for now when they are small, but I hope they will start spreading out and migrating Southwards as soon as they becomes a bit stronger. If not, then the problem will still be a lifeless South.


HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?
Some of the small creatures have too much health. There should be a few creatures whit low health for new players to hunt. perhaps 1/3 the hp of a typical new player. That would be a challenge, but not deadly.
The rest of the creatures seem fine, there's a good range of hp's If the speed and aggressiveness gets improved, I don't think this need to be changed.


Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?
Most creatures seem to hit very hard.
I'm a new player whit 74 hp, and if I'm able to find something like a Pine Martin or Hamster whit 50 - 60 hp to fight, I still need to be both lucky and careful or I will end up dead. Anything above 60 hp, is more or less suicide.



Healing have already been mentioned by others, and that is a big problem right now. Perhaps a temporal solution, could be to increase the healing rate of a resting character ?

Another issue is armour. There seem to be very little knowledge about how armour actually works ( but many theories )
If we as players had more information, we could better protect ourselves and the creature strength would be less of an issue.

Also most of the bone crafting recipes got names that imply you need deer or bear bones to make them ( I haven't got these recipes, so I might be wrong )

If some of the low level sets could use more generic bones from creatures you as a new hunter/crafter "should" be hunting. It would make progressing more natural when you can hunt and craft your way into better and better materials and add more value to trading these parts.
It would also take some focus away from the high end creatures, those should be for the high level hunters and hunting parties.

[OrlandoKev]

Grrr agreeing with most of MrDDTs points but hating admitting it ;-)

This my personal opinion, not really being sure if its a good thing or bad for the game in general, but my experience with game is that hunting is hard and that i have always viewed it as more of a endgame skill, something that players have to work towards and put effort into being able to accomplish instead of being a typical mob grinding game. Some of my proudest moments in this game were my "first" kills of a rev, mule deer, racoon, bear etc.

The biggest problem i see is distribution of animals, a player can wander literally for hours and hours in most parts of map and ever see a single animal of any size, but then go to certain areas up north and lag horribly and see that there are large quantities of small animals running around in those certain areas, making a player such as myself assume that the congregation of small animals in certain areas is large contribution to the lag.

You are already aware of players frustration in regards to lack of medium and large animals for those have put in the effort to improve their stats, armor, weapons to hunt them, so i wont dwell on that.

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?
I feel they age way too slow, in just shy of 3 months game time, i have a couple baby animals at my tribe that have gained less than 20 hp, at this pace i shudder at the thought of how long it will take before they get to be couple hundred hp and will have some decent power materials. Perhaps in order to accomadate a larger range of players, correct distribution of animals and age animals based on the danger level of areas, higher the danger level, faster they age and actually make the higher danger areas actually more dangerous.

Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?
I agree with MrDDT response.

Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?
I like there is a variance on this, but overall i think they are "too passive" sometimes especially on larger animals, hunting is stacked against us in so many ways and finding myself having to chase a large bear sometimes seems a bit much especially when i know i am gonna get smacked real hard just trying to get him to even engage in combat. More often than you would expect you can get right up in his face and have him turn and run away up or down the steep mountains that we as a player can not do efficiently at all. Course this works the other way as well, catching aggro in the mountains is typically a death sentence for a player due to the animals speed up and down and our lack of.

HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?
Really hard to say in general, never really had any complaints personally in regards to this, however there is probably less than a handful of players who even know the hp ranges of animals to begin with, i have been playing 6 months and i dont have a clue due to the lack of aged animals. Easy as the babies are to kill and slow as they are currently aging, i personally wouldnt like to see a reduced hp on them as well or we would be well on our way to simple mob grinding.

Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?
The babies certainly dont hit too hard and for me they are very weak, but can only assume newer players appreciate this greatly. People laugh alot and you hear comments like "I got owned by a hamster or a chicken" alot, but those comments seem to be made in a good way, cant say i have ever heard a player saying "F this game, cant even kill a hamster" but of course that doesnt mean it isnt happening and they arent just quitting without saying anything. Laughter and fun is obviously good for a game, and thats mostly what i hear is laughter direction on this topic.

Heal rate is what i see as the biggest issue for players when dealing with revs or animals they cant kill fairly easily, it takes forever for us players to heal and its quite boring laying around "constantly" for what seems like forever, the amount of time laying around healing versus actual combat time is very skewed, and to watch their tick so quickly and ours so slow is very frustrating/

[jeru]

In particular I would like to get a feel from players regarding:

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?
Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?
Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?
HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?
Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?


Age: Too slow. Went hunting many times since the patch with my tribemates only to find the same packs of baby bears (about 6) same with deer that have not grown much in HP and size at all. The smaller animals I noticed do have an easier time reaching power levels above .50. I'd like to see the animals age faster because there is no point in killing baby animals, their bones are pretty worthless.

Speed: They are currently pretty damn fast. Hard to catch up to at times, often because of trash piles or rock terrain they can easily outrun you til you are out of endurance (they don't have the slow down effects of terrain change).

Behavior: Something I noticed about the current AI is that every hit has a chance to make them flee/agro? Like sometimes ill hit an animal and it'll agro on me, then 3 hits later it'll flee, then i smack it once and it's back agro onto me. Just my feedback there on animal agro, not a complaint.

HP: Many small animals have way too much hp as DDT stated. Other animals are fine, and mutants kick my butt, as they should.

Power: I think baby creatures are hitting appropriately for their correct damage. However tiny animals (Pine Martins, Hamsters, Rats) become pretty beefy at times since I've agro'd 7 at a time before and they love to help each other. Kind of strange fearing a pack of rats and no problem to take on a solo bear ^_^

[Whorlok]

i agree also Mr.DTT in all points...
and...if RANGED Combat arrieved (its the most thing i have wait..:( ) the small animals can be a little faster

A second idea is a small programcode for all the bonecrafter.its hard to find animals for all the bonecrafter.
in all the city of the world you found RATS(reallife).it would be nice to wrote a programcode in which rats respawn if a Tribe totem is created!
small tribe: 2-3 rats
middle tribe: 5
big tribes: 10
and rats are not aggro...small live -->30-50(older rats)
Now..the player have no problem to master her crafting

[Sandman]

Chickens: HP-low DMG-low Aggro:never This is a good first line animal for beginner to hunting. Changes-I would say if anything a small amount more dmg. This animal is near perfect for it's type.

Hamsters: HP-low DMG-low Aggro: rare This is a good first line animal for beginner to hunting. Changes-Less run speed

Rats: HP-low to med DMG- low to med Aggro: rare This animal is good introduction to higher hp for a new hunter. Changes- more aggro.

Pine Martin: HP-low to med DMG- low to med Aggro:low to med. Changes-This animal I would like to see hit for less and have more hit points as a builder animal for hunters to prepare for bigger game.

Racoons: HP- low to med DMG- low to med until adult then med. Aggro:med for young low for adult

Squirrel: HP- med DMG-med Aggro:low Changes- I would like to see this animal run less

Rabbit: HP-med DMG-med Aggro: rare Changes- less dmg and less run these animals are hard to catch, if intended it works perfect.

Cats: HP-med DMG-med Aggro:low Changes-run way to fast
Dogs:HP-med DMG-med Aggro:rare except Rottweiler Changes-runs way to fast
Marmot- HP- med DMG-med Aggro-med to high

Coyote: I've only seen the babies so I can not comment fully here, I would like to see this animal med across the board and travel in packs where a solo player must run. Changes- more packs of coyotes rare to find
Deer: HP-med DMG- Med to high Aggro- adult high aggro, baby runs. Changes- need more adult hard to find
Bear: HP- High DMG- High Aggro-High for adult and baby Changes- need more adult, rare to find

Small Magical: most magical creatures i've seen have around 250 or 450 hp and are rare to find, usually around mist lines. Mostly no aggro. I've only taken these down in packs and never tried to solo one. They are great animals to hunt in groups.
changes- I would like to see more

Big Magical: Haven't found one yet as far as I know they do not exist

on all animals please take consideration to the following...change- can not traverse terrain that we can not, energy bar does not work as intended as animals still sprint with no energy, animals climb mountains, animals also run through trees and buildings.

I like the idea of breeding and I like the changes you have made adding animals and giving us a reason other then craft things to do in Xsyon, for this I thank you all. I would suggest as well as breeding to spawn animals where and when needed, like right now we need big game to hunt.

As a previous citizen wrote to limit animals to danger zones, I dislike this idea. I think they should freely roam the lands as they wish and I would love to see a big bear haunt my city and give me a reason to build walls (already did but yeah).

I have hunted these areas from zones 770's all over the east going north to 1057 all the way over the north east in 1022 then from north east going East to the zones 980s and this is what I find:
EAST-extremely low to no population
South East- low population
North East- low to med population
North- med population
North west- low to med population
West- I haven't fully explored
South areas- I haven't explored

What has been done so far is great and I thank you a lot for it. We still need more though and a lot of uncovered areas that still need animals. It's a work in progress and i'm happy to help whenever/whatever I can do.

There is one zone and one area that I know of in the North that has a very high population of small animals. Which should be seen in every tree line imo.

Last week I seen a good number of baby deer and baby bears run across my tribe lands in zone 937 heading due East to never be seen again.

And tonight only I seen something I liked a lot, a change you made maybe I can't say, but a change yes. The small animals fight a little more tonight then before and when they run they will stop attack for a min then run again, I loved this concept it made it possible to catch and good fight. this was all only tonight though, not sure why it was like this but I enjoyed it.

I surely hope this information helps you, cheers!

[Weebeastie]

I have to agree with DDT on all points.

The main issue is the Speed of critters, I have been pwn'd by a rather nasty hamster :mad: but then I am not a hunter as such.

However after chasing the little bugger all over... loosing it 3 times due to spider-like abilties and warp speed.. I am out of energy and off it goes again running away at break neck speed while i slowly cuddle myself on the floor to start the whole process over again.

After this process has been repeated a number of times I have come to the conclusion that hunting is just not viable for a starter player unless you specifically make you char just to hunt which limits game play greatly and reduces the whole feel of an otherwise promising game.

[MrDDT]

Also issues with some animals able to go right through walls/doors. Even when they are closed off.

[toolkit68]

Here is my answer then:

[quote]In particular I would like to get a feel from players regarding:

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?

As i am a new player i cant really answer this one. I wasnt even aware of so far that there is a difference - they seem to be same size etc to me

Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?

Yes they are too fast. I am not a hunter by definition but 2 things about the speed bugs me actually. Sometimes animals 'kite' in superspeed into a specific spot or even into me :) - which isnt the worst but inconvinient at times and immersion breaking. But my main bugger about speed is actually the point when the creature tries to flee after it attacked you. When you (especially a new player like me) finally figured how to hit and land a few hits on the animal it should be considered wounded and not be as fast as before - it flees in lightning speed forcing you to blindly run after it or leave it be completely.

Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?

So far i cant really decide for one of the 2 answers. Some seem to be pretty agressive despite the fact they are usually a peaceful kind (mule deer are my favourites here), others are just too peaceful or trusting to be natural (rabbits approach me as a player)

HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?

Limited value of my answer here as i am new : I managed to nearly kill a single mule deer so far with an axe. The same kind wouldnt even get hurt properly by my club the other day - so its hard for me to decide. In general it seems they are a bit overpowered regarding health.

Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard? [quote]

With tears in my eyes i have to admit that so far they seem to be ok - but i lack longer experience again. Since Zombies dont count into this who have real weapons i actually believe that animals are too powerful for their ability to hurt me as a human. But again - my experience is down to 2 kinds of dogs and mule deers so far which makes proper input very limited.


P.S: I decided to post my impressions even with my limited experience as i believe the view of an 'outsider' might be helpful as well. Other new players will probably notice things in a similar way as i do since we dont know enough details yet to make the same decisions or assumptions as seasoned players.

[wastelandstoic]

Personal observations of animal population over the last 2 weeks:

12-7 days ago in the north zones- lots of tiny baby animals wandering in groups throughout many/most northern zones.

6-2 days ago in north- smaller groups but still many adolescent animals wandering far north and some very few trickling down into upper southern zones. No larger animals seen in far south. A very few mutant deer seen around squaw area. Still many small mutant animals in 1017. No large mutant animals seen.

Sunday- A few small animals and one adolescent bear spotted in mid southern zones. Very few larger animals to be seen across the entire south west, west and north west of map. Scattered deer of about 100 hps in northern zones (about one or two per zone at most). No other large animals spotted. Still plenty of small groups (2-4) of small animals in north. In far northern zones two groups of 3-5 adolescent deer spotted and one 200 hp deer. No other larger animals seen. A few (1-2) baby bears seen and one baby coyote.

It was looking promising last week but based on what I saw this weekend the animals are 'drying up' again and still nothing of any significance in the far south. Can the large breeding spawns of 2 weeks ago be duplicated in the south? It seems like 3-5 of those are needed at compass points on map and cycling at about 2-3 weeks to keep the influx of new animals spawning.
As far as where the large animals are going, I'm clueless. Does the mist despawn them and only occasionally make a mutant?

[Nezdar]

Availability:
There are still to few animals. You can run for 2-3 zones without finding one unless you are lucky or moving very slowly. I hunted south from 743, 703, into 663 and 664 without seeing anything after I left camp. These remote areas should be crawling with game.

Age: Do they age too slow or too fast?
They age so slow that I can't tell they age.

Speed: Are creatures too fast or too slow?
Small animals are too fast. Medium and large animals are fine to me.

Behavior: Are creatures too aggressive or too passive?
Small animals should be more aggressive to new players. Medium and Large animals seem fine.

HP: Do creatures have too much or too little health?
Small animals have too much HP. Medium could stand to lose a few HP. Large animals are fine, I would not mind if they had more HP.

Power: Are creatures too strong or too weak? Do they hit too hard?
Small animals could use a 20% nerf in damage. Medium animals could go for a 10% nerf and again I am fine with the hard hitting large animals.

Lag? I don't know exactly what to call it but when fighting animals there are times when you will miss the animal because they have moved and your screen has not received the new location, when it catches up the animal will pop over a few feet to the right or left. In the meantime, they have hit you 4 or 6 times to your one swing. This is frustrating as hell since I have a very high end system and high speed cable Internet. Something needs to be tweaked client-server for combat to reduce the jittery lag that plagues the game. This may now be my #1 issue with the game since I have tested this on all 4 of my gaming rigs and it only gets worse on lower hardware. Also, I really think this is worse since the patch and move to new hardware on the server side.

[Xsyon]

I'm locking this thread. Thanks for the all the information and please join in the next discussion regarding the creature changes in progress on the Test Server here (http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/8768-Feedback-Request-05-30-2013-Creatures-(Test-Server-Only)).