COMBAT suggestions

[Chidar]

Combat

Issue:

1. PvP in its current form is too complex for mouse & key synchronising at the speed the attacks are dealt. It just comes down to luck not skill. E.g if your parry is timed in the right direction to prevent a block.

Suggestions:
The attack function introduces a 4 directional aiming capability which is over complicated and not rewarding.
The defend function introduces a 4 directional aiming capability, again over complicated, assumed same for parry and dodge.

a) Remove the mouse move aiming method, its just a complication that detracts from char movement.
b) Add automated targeting of hit boxes based on movement of character (forward, backward, left, right), or use one attack hit box & keep the animations as random.
c) Slow down weapon strike speeds.
d) Add automated dodge & parry & block for stat&skill based calculated response to opponent strikes.
e) Add override function 'Alt' for prolonged blocking/parry.
f) Remove mouse aiming for blocks & parry & dodge, replace with the same animations (automated) but with one defence hit box.

Solution
Simplify combat to two options: attack or defend. Use automation calculations from stats and skills. Keep animations. Reduce speed of attack action & remove 'chance' of success element on all actions. Simplify number of possible actions in both attack and defend.

I write this as a veteran pvp'er of over 20 years gaming experience in the hope you consider the opinion, which may lead to a more attractive game for combat orientated individuals.
I wish you all the best with your product, it has the potential to go far.

Regards

Chidar

PS have you ever considered seeking sponsorship from your government with respect to the provision of educational material from the standpoint of responsible management of resources? I say this as your product teaches people about lifecycles and sustainment of ecology etc. A message the government 'green' campaigns are wanting to push out to the public. They may entertain your concept as innovative, and I am sure an 'education' friendly version could be scripted. With the right IPR it could baseline your wider business goals in the gaming sphere. Try, Dept. of Education, Environment, or Business Innovation.

[MrDDT]

Few things about your post tells me you havn't done much of the combat in Xsyon.

Like ALT already can override parry if you set it up that way.
Another thing is that dodging hasn't been put into the game so it's not even a factor.

I believe your suggestions remove skill not add it. Slowing down the attack speeds would help with the option to parry, but already you have most attacks are around 2s attack speeds per attack. That's pretty slow by most PVP games. Biggest issue is really just the desync and not all the other things you are talking about.

Many of the things like "AUTOMATED" actions remove player skill greatly from the game where there is little to start with, and on top of that there is no special moves at all. So you remove all player skill and make it all based on toon attack with NO player choices at all?

Can you tell me where the player skill would come into play in this combat suggestions you list? Or is there just none?


P.S.
Over 20 years exp in PVP? What games came out over 20 years go that would give you exp?

[Chidar]

MrDDT,

I have played 1 week in combat in the game, and my thread is a suggestion to change it. It may be that I do know everything about it, however I come from the world of any suggestion that might improve things is worth mentioning.
1. Yes I am aware that alt provides the parry function, I am suggesting to keep it as an overriding function of an attack move.
2. if dodge was meant for the ctrl key that would explain why it didn't seem to make an effect. I will forgive myself having put 10 points into the skill for not realising it is absent from game.
3. There is no player 'skill' element in this combat, it is luck to guess the attack of the enemy before it is executed, in the off chance you can provide a counter, owing to speed of combat.
4. If the combat was skill based in practice more people would be playing it, despite the latency. I appreciate the concept provided aims for 'skill' based combat, but the bottom line is it doesn't and won't the way that it is set-up. If they want to appeal to a wider audience it may be a good idea to change it, end of suggestion. If this means simplify or change completely to attract more people then so be it, a robust revenue stream is the most important thing.
5. Special moves could be an option, player choices a good idea.
6. Automation will just make easier - agreed. More people play, game gets development funds.
7. Player skill with proposed model, none bar parrying an attack with the alt key.
8. To answer your asking what pvp I have done way back, lets just say I started on Sinclair spectrum & amiga playing 2 player games when the internet was in its infancy. Since then Darkfall (5 years), UO Feluccia (4 years), SWG, Lotro, Battlefield, DAoC, AoC, WoW, Arma, LoL, vanguard, and others.. in no particular order - which I am sure you will agree is a diverse range of combat styles.


Looking forward to hearing your constructive opinion on improving the combat.

[MrDDT]

I'm sorry, can you say again where the player skill comes into play? You said you want to widen it to a larger market, but even other games like WOW which is a HUGE market have player skill. Your system would have no player skill whatsoever, heck it looks like the best thing to do would be level up and stand next to the target spamming the keys and whoever has the better weapon/armor/skill would win. No skill on the player side what so ever.

Combat in Xsyon can be improved in many many many ways, but I'm simply saying I don't see how your suggestions (outside of slowing down attack speed to allow for a chance to parry) would make the game better.

Currently even with slowing down attack speeds, parry is NOT a valid option. It's a negative option in the current use of parry EVEN if you choose the correct 100% option to parry 99% of the time you would still be at a negative factor by the other 1% and even on the other 99%.


Desync and lack of special attacks is the biggest issues I see. Another sorta combat related is healing options for HP/Energy, which there is very little.

Yes I'm sure he could cut out some of the swing directions and parry directions, but because they have no real effect, it would not improve the game at all IMO. It would just simply remove animations from the game, which would not improve or worsen combat.

[Chidar]

7. Player skill with proposed model, none bar parrying an attack with the alt key.

I am not proposing changes to provide player skill.

Perhaps with your suggestion of adding 'choice' it might.

The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.

My first thought when writing was the pursuit of a more palatable and instantly engaging fight.
When myself and friends started fighting - it was some unpredictable & chance was a major factor.

PS im not trying to upset people, I am just trying to help.

[MrDDT]

So your advice is remove all player skill in combat?

I would have to say that advice is not good for any game. As I said before even hugely popular games like WOW has player skill in PVP and combat.

You give the reason for your change to "open up to broader market" yet. I disagree with that, as I've shown past history of gaming where they use player skill with success. You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question.

I do not believe this makes any sense to do this, as I said there are many other ways to improve combat, and somehow you found a way to worsen it.

Suggestions:
Fix desync.
Add special skills.
Make parry useful. (Like when you successfully parry an attack, the attacker loses 5x energy normally would for the attack)
Add healing options.
Add group play options like party screens/chat, skills that heal/buff/aid party members etc.
Ranged attacks, even if you have to do it with melee, like a lunge.

Removing all player skill from the game is the worst idea I can think of to change combat.

[MrDDT]

The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.

My first thought when writing was the pursuit of a more palatable and instantly engaging fight.
When myself and friends started fighting - it was some unpredictable & chance was a major factor.

PS im not trying to upset people, I am just trying to help.

Responding to your edit.

Currently there is no "chance" in combat at all.
If you are in range, the target is in your swing arc, you hit 100% of the time. Parry can happen based on if the player correctly does a parry the direction you are attacking. So if you are attacking as an overhead attack, the parry person would have to parry overhead to parry 100%. More they are off from there (like parrying low) they take more damage.

The only way I could see the possibly of chance coming into play is due to desync/lag where you might not be in range, or the target is not really in front of you due to this desync/lag.
Then again, it's not really chance because either they are there or not, it's really not a random to hit roll or anything like that.

Having played Darkfall myself I can't see how a player from that game and playing it as long as you have would even suggest removing all player skill to make the game better. There is not a lot going for the Xsyon combat system, and removing that would make it so there pretty much is no combat system at all.

[Chidar]

Simplifying the current model of multiple attack directions & defence directions, does not mean remove player skill.
I agree with what your saying, as I wrote:
'The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.'

It is a proposed 'model' to start with, if it needs addition then great.

I fail to see why you are attempting on each occasion of writing to make this thread a personal insult to me and try and discredit my view based on my pvp gaming experience
this...'Over 20 years exp in PVP? What games came out over 20 years go that would give you exp?'
and this...'You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question.'
...have no relevance in this thread. The facts are: I came, I paid, I played, I thought some suggestion to the devs might help. Which I believe is correct to do in this section of the forum, 'Developer Zone'. However you don't seem to like it much, so perhaps I like countless others should just leave.

[MrDDT]

Simplifying the current model of multiple attack directions & defence directions, does not mean remove player skill.
I agree with what your saying, as I wrote:
'The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.'

It is a proposed 'model' to start with, if it needs addition then great.

I fail to see why you are attempting on each occasion of writing to make this thread a personal insult to me.
this...'Over 20 years exp in PVP? What games came out over 20 years go that would give you exp?'
and this...'You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question.'
...have no relevance in this thread. The facts are: I came, I paid, I played, I thought some suggestion to the devs might help. Which I believe is correct to do in this section of the forum, 'Developer Zone'. However you don't seem to like it much, so perhaps I like countless others should just FO.

It doesn't always remove player skill, however, in this case it would.

You saying you agree yet still hold that removing current little skill would help the game.

The "model" you want to start with, I've tried to explain is in my opinion worse. Which also in my opinion is hard to do, being that combat is so poorly done already, due to the lack of much of a combat system.

Your 20+ years is something you put into your first point, it's not a personal attack to question it, is it? I do not agree with the statements you make so, that makes them personal attacks?

You also trying to make statements as if they are fact. Like "If they want to appeal to a wider audience it may be a good idea to change it, end of suggestion."
Here you are stating something as if it's well known or a fact. Offering nothing to back it up, or why.

[Chidar]

wow

look...

"You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question."

that is a personal remark.

and this...

"If they want to appeal to a wider audience it may be a good idea to change it, end of suggestion."

...means maybe, possibly, or could, which does not indicate fact.
If I used: should or has to, these would indicate fact.

I think we are done in this thread now.

PS I do not want toe to toe button mashing either, but sometimes one has to go back a step before you can go forwards a few more.

[MrDDT]

So you don't want toe to toe button mashing but this is what would come from your suggestion, as you agreed.

I don't agree this has to go backwards (I didn't think it was possible to go backwards, but I guess there is a way) to make it better in this case.
Just to be clear, I believe to make the combat better in this game, would simply be fix/add the things they have not removing one of the few things they have that is part of combat.


You can say all you wan't that it's a personal attack, doesn't make it true. I disagree with with your opinion on how to make it better, and if you say it's an opinion on being a good idea to change it because you used the word may, then I disagree with that opinion to change it in the ways you asked, as I already stated, and the reasons why.

The only thing close to a personal attack is the comment you made about fing off. Which you have changed, either any case I'm not upset. I'm simply expressing my opinions of how a horrible idea this would be, and that someone with as much exp as you say you would have could even suggest something like this is beyond me.

[GuideXaphan]

Moved the topic to "general discussion" as we want to keep the developer thread clean of customer topics of discussion.

Keep the discussion clean and on track or I'll clean and then lock it if it continues after removing posts.

[Hodo]

I know I don't play Xsyon anymore but I am a gamer who plays several games PvP, FPS, to full on sandboxes. So here is my two cents.

I can't agree the suggestions you listed. Slowing things down and removing things makes it seem like, every other bad MMORPG that has PvP in it. Notice I said MMORPG that has PvP in it.

Like I loved SWG-PreCU, but I hated the combat system. It was nothing more than tab targeting and macro mashing. Then there was Mortal Online, again twitch based, but it just came down to who had the better ping and who could find the current exploit fastest. Then Roma Victor, which was fun but incomplete. And now I play Planetside 2, which is just good old fashioned FPSMMO. It didn't try and revolutionize gaming it went with what works.

A game like Xsyon needs a combat system like the old Roma Victor, where it was quick and brutal, not long and drawn out. Blocking should be done in two parts.
1- Active blocking, where you actively place your shield in the way of the opponents weapon.
2- Passive blocking, where your skill in blocking randomly gets the block for you.

The passive block is meant to make up for internet latency and keep the game a game. Player skill will factor into the game but it will not matter who has the fastest internet connection or who is the closest to the server.

The attack system I would simplify just a little bit.
-remove the different levels of power in the attacks. You should always attack at full force, why would anyone in a real fight (and I have been in a few) ever swing at an enemy they are trying to kill with less than full force.
-Change the skill set so it would affect the attack speed, the higher your skill, the faster your attack will be and the more damage you will do, and you would also benefit from a reduction in stamina use.

In real life I have a good deal of experience with fights with medieval weapons, melee weapons, and even MMA. I am a US Army vet, who served in Afghanistan as a signal operator and M249 SAW gunner.

http://i.imgur.com/p1nzOrr.jpg
I am the one on the right and that is a real hauburk it weighs around 30lbs. The axe I am using is a hard architectural rubber head, not at all soft kind of like a dead blow hammer.

[MrDDT]

I think slowing it down would also hurt things more than help. I agree with you that the best course of action likely is make parry an on/off skill. Where you choose to parry or not. While parrying you are not attacking. It would work just like the "blocking" mode you were saying.

Yes I swing at people less than full force a lot. It's called a jab, or a feint, or when you have an opening but unable to make a full swing. Having said this, removing the charge attacking wouldn't really effect much, and I see no reason to remove it.

Changing skill to effect attack speed would only speed up the current fighting, offset in game toon skill to be more important than player skill, plus as you said the lag factor comes into play more, as you speed the game up more.

Suggestions:
Fix desync.
Add special skills.
Make parry useful. (Like when you successfully parry an attack, the attacker loses 5x energy normally would for the attack)
Add healing options.
Add group play options like party screens/chat, skills that heal/buff/aid party members etc.
Ranged attacks, even if you have to do it with melee, like a lunge.

I played Roma Victor also, and one of the best parts I liked about the combat, was the lunge attack. When done well it was very lethal but also left you open to attack if you missed.

[Hodo]

Yes I swing at people less than full force a lot. It's called a jab, or a feint, or when you have an opening but unable to make a full swing. Having said this, removing the charge attacking wouldn't really effect much, and I see no reason to remove it.


I hate to say this, but if you are throwing a weak jab you are doing it wrong. In a fight a real fight you do everything you can to end it quickly and in your favor. Wasting energy on feint or halfhearted strike, is a fools move in a real fight.

But otherwise you bring up good points but I think you misunderstand me when I talk about making the combat quick and brutal. If you remember RV you know that hitpoints didn't exist like they do here. Your attributes was everything. And fights in that could take a while or be over in a matter of seconds if it was horribly unbalanced. And honestly skills should play a large part in a fight. Just because you as a player are an uber-elite MLGtard who lives breaths and defecates twitch MMO combat, doesn't mean your less than 5 minutes old farmer who you just made is going to be any good at anything.

Remember this is a game, a MMORPG SANDBOX game, not a twitch MLG session. If you want your personal skills as a twitch combat gamer to be taken into account I can point you in the direction of several F2P shooters or hacknslashers out there where you would thrive.

[MrDDT]

You are trying to tell me that a jab is just as powerful as a full swing?
Jabs are done for many reasons, they can even knock out people however, they are no where near the full power of a full punch. Feint's are used also for very good reasons to open up the targets defenses or knock them off balance again opening up defense or putting them within reach or optimal reach of a stronger or more deadly blow.

Not all stronger blows mean they do more damage either, however, that's another topic but just wanted to point out that full power strikes are not the only reason to throw an attack. Either in boxing, swordplay, fencing or any other type of combat.

That would be like saying you should use a shotgun for combat instead of a 22 pistol. Because why would you use anything less than full power?

I don't want this to be an twitch MLG session (FYI for people that dont know MLG is major league gaming). However, I do believe removing all player skill from combat would make it boring and the game all about who is the most grinded toon or highest level. I'm looking for a mix of the 2, where both play a part. Why does an MMORPG Sandbox game mean you can't have skillful combat system? I've never heard of other sandbox games saying this or doing this, other than Wurm Online. Where littarrly you stand toe to toe and let your skills/armor/weapon give you text feedback only on how the combat is doing, without any choices or skill from the player themselves.
So I want this to be like an FPS game? No, but I also dont want to stand there and watch my toon fight for me, I want to have choices and interaction with the combat.
Roma Victor's combat system had some great points and some horrid problems. One of the major problems was balance, and 1 shot kill. Even though they are realistic (Romans were greatly better 1 vs 1 than Barbarians, due to armor and training) it's also a fun factor. People don't want to get into combat and be 1 shot by an attack, it's just not fun.
Where I would say RV (Roma Victor) did well was the manual blocking and how you faced off with your shield arm. Not only would a full active block help keep you protected, but you would use a shield like it was meant. Keeping it between you and the target would leave them with little area to attack cleanly, without it even being in active block mode.

[Hodo]

A jab is not a weak punch. A jab is a style of punch, like a cross, uppercut, or a hook. All are intended to hurt your opponent not tickle him.

And RV did not have your shield between you and your opponent, you stood there like you were a special snow flake in the exact same stance you did when you were just standing around. If someone HIT your shield then it automatically counted it as a block. I used to always say that RV needed a combat ready stance, like Xsyon has, and its combat system would have been much improved.

[MrDDT]

A jab is not a weak punch. A jab is a style of punch, like a cross, uppercut, or a hook. All are intended to hurt your opponent not tickle him.

And RV did not have your shield between you and your opponent, you stood there like you were a special snow flake in the exact same stance you did when you were just standing around. If someone HIT your shield then it automatically counted it as a block. I used to always say that RV needed a combat ready stance, like Xsyon has, and its combat system would have been much improved.

Jab is a much weaker punch than a Straight punch, which is normally your stronger fist also. Jabs are mostly meant for defense and to put the target off balance. Straight punches are stronger, and sometimes called the "KO punch" as they use your hips and stronger arm for more power.
I saying a Jab is meant to hurt them is correct, but also not the main goal, the main goal of a Jab is for other actions like a stronger attack or to defend oneself.

About the shield in RV, there was a way to block with the shield, not just if someone hit it but you could use it to block with also. Do you think that if someone poorly aims they and targets someone shield it should not hit the shield? I'm confused here.
I did a lot of combat in RV and you would line up your shield side to the target so you would be a smaller target (only your head, upper shoulder, foot, and lower leg could be hit) when you blocked you would raise your shield sightly defending your upper shoulder and head also leaving your upper leg, lower leg and foot open. Well aimed attacks would be required to hit these targets, and make it skillful. There was a "parry" and "dodge" skill that would allow you to automatically sometimes be missed even if the attacker had the correct open area targeted. None of this counted armor which would lessen an attack even causing it to do no damage.
Another thing about this combat system is you have to aim at a moving target and with someone having a shield (even when you dont actively use it) it can make the target much harder to hit.
Euna Vs Draco Roma Victor (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/MrDDT/media/Roma-Victor/EunavsDraco.mp4.html?sort=3&o=19)
You can see in this video because Euna has a small shield he leaves a large target for attacks. You can see Draco has a much larger shield which protects a large part of his body.