Trade Totem Expiration

[Willowhawk]

Apparently we missed the memo on trade totem items expiring. I just found out that we lost a small fortune in Armor, Tools and supplies because everything expired and vanished off the trade totem. For those who do use the trade totems and also missed the memo, everything expires in 800 game days.

This does not work for us. At the least there should be a message saying that items are soon to expire.

Due to this fact Raven Moon will no longer use trade totems, all trades in person only.

Yes this was a rant, we didn't deserve this. :mad:

[MrDDT]

Yeah, IS found this out the hard way also a while back.

You have to repost it remove them or lose them after 800 game days.

[mmogaddict]

Ouch - thanks for the warning.

[chojinuk]

This also happened to me quite a while ago,maybe i should have put a post on the forum

I did say ingame at the time ;/ happened back in Nov, i raised a ticket got the following reply.


"..... Items expire and are deleted if not collected after 800 game days.
This was set up so that trade totems don't get stuck full of unclaimed items.

I've taken a note to make this more clear to players when I set up a tutorial
and more tool tips / in game information. This will come directly after farming
and cooking are implemented.

I may also set up a way for a player to 'refresh' the item's timer without taking
the item off the totem and putting it up for sale again."

So Xyson MAY put in a refresh button which would help things
but still means you have to keep an eye on the totem.

Apologies for not making more noise at the time it happened so more players were aware.

The way I run trade totems now is to try to check at least once a week and relist stuff
that is close to expiring. the refresh or relist button would help in speeding that process up.

sark

[Riverspirit]

Soooo.. if anyone wants to buy my weapons, msg me in game. I will only do in-person trades. I am really really not happy that nobody told us that trade totems work this way. There is nothing on the totem that says "Expires in x days". I mean, really, it tells you how many days it has been on there, so why not just change that to an expiration. I think we just need to do away with the trade totems, which are for the most part pretty silly anyway and put in place a global auction. Now that would really get an economy going. And if something expires, whether auction or trade, the player should get it back. Items should not just disappear! The worst part is that the information was not disseminated to all players. I want my stuff back. :(

[MrDDT]

It was posted in the patch notes when they put it in, but like you said having a tool tip or a warning would be great.

I do not want to see a global auction, the current system isn't the issue, it's really the lack of any type of signs or ways for players to know what to look for, they have no idea on the mini map where a trade totem is. Players would have to left click to select it to even see the name, plus right click it to really see what it does, if they happen to be near one.
Local trading is great for the economy, lack of ways to move items sucks. Death porting is still really the only option to move heavy items over a zone or 2.

I don't see a problem with things expiring after 3 months real time either, most games items expire long before that, I can understand why the need for an expiring system.

I mostly use my trade totem to show people prices of items, and sell gear that people ask for without having to be online or do the trade in person.
Biggest issue I have is that trade totems only accept 1 type of currency at a time. So if someone wants to buy a 10k item, they can't have 5k dollars, 5k quarters. They must have 10k of the same currency and has to be the same currency the trade totem/tribe has set.
I would much rather see 1 currency, and use the other 4 currencies for denominations. IE dollar = 1$, bottle cap = 5$, beer tab = 100$ etc. Change the drop chance, and replace all in game currency with the basic value of the items.

[Riverspirit]

One currency would be fine. Just change it all to dollars or whatever. I don't mind the current currency system, but it is kind of pointless to have 5 different currencies all the same value. I don't care about having denominations though. And yes, the totem needs to notify the players that their stuff just disappears. It should be very clear, and all they had to do was have the timer count down and tell the player the item expires in 800 days when they post it.

Trade totems are a failed idea in my opinion. There are too many and they are all spread out and most of them don't have any items on them, so it is a waste of time even looking.

[MrDDT]

You won't be happy with a global auction either, as it will come down to the lowest person every time, which means people will likely be giving it away, and you wont sell anything. Also making another issue of items being "mailed" magically to the person somehow.

Totems works fine, EVE does this same system we have here, only with known locations of trade hubs. The reason why most totems are empty isn't because totem's don't work, its all the other reasons economy doesn't work. Lack of drive to buy, craft, move, use, rarity etc. Economy in Xsyon is lacking big time and needs a lot of work.

[Riverspirit]

Yes, it is called supply and demand. That is how economy works. People won't sell stuff for nothing, because it wouldn't be worth it, and that supply would be depleted quickly enough. If somebody wants to make what I can and sell it for nothing, more power to them. I will keep my stuff for my tribe. I sell very little anyway since it is just a hassle to do so with very little return. Let them buy it from IS. Who cares? Trade totems were not the answer though.. they were supposed to fix the economy. They didn't.

[MrDDT]

Trade totems were not meant to fix the economy, not 1 thing will "fix" the economy. Its a series of things.

Demand in Xsyon is low, while supply is very very high. That is just the basics. Many things need to happen to help change the economy. Going to a global auction house changes many aspects of the economy that I would think over be bad. Just like deathport trading is bad for it.

[Willowhawk]

Item expiration seems like bad mechanics to me.

In most MMO's I've played the expired items either go into your bank account, or they go into an equity reserve until they can be reclaimed. I don't believe I have ever seen personal items just "Poof" into non existence. They should simply be removed from the sale tab and moved to a storage tab. No matter what the reason is, player items should be returned to them. And I don't agree that items left for more than 400 days should go to the tribe leader either. These items should also be moved to player equity storage or hold to be claimed when they log back in the next time.

Auction House.
I would also love to see a global type auction as they've been used in one form or another in just about every successful MMO out there. People can talk semantics about keeping a player driven economy, but then the current trade totem is already Non Player operated since I'm not there making the sale. It's not a vending machine yet the items are sold by a wooden pole. I ally with another tribe and I can magically see everything on their trade totem from mine. So that line of reasoning is already a moot point.

An option could be an Add On. (I know, this would be way down the road but an idea anyway). This could be an add on or upgrade purchase to an existing paid Xsyon account. It could be an Auctioneer Totem placed anywhere within a certain distance from the main account tribe totem, perhaps a max of 4-5 zones or 5 kilometers away. It would serve only as an auction house so there would be no tribe members or territory expansion, it's just an extension of tribe. It would also be a PVP free area or else it would become a central grieving area. Outside the Auction area you're on your own. It would allow tribes to set up a central trade area away from tribe (Without buying a second account) and once established people would know where to go to by goods. If enough players buy the Auction House Add On we could have Auction houses all around the lake. Or we could end up with some Central Trade and Commerce Districts. They could even become social hubs for people to hang out in a safe environment, do events, etc. Regular trade totems would still remain for local on tribe trades.

Any player could buy or sell at the auction (gates would be public access) however, there could be an optional membership (much like the ally function) which would allow you to view all items from all auction house subscribers on your own local tribe trade totem. Another possible option would be the ability to see ALL auction house listing at any auction house around the lake. This would allow people to see everything available even though they would still need to travel there to make the purchase. It could also create a more competitive environment. The owner of each auction house would set a commission or vendor fee for sales which would go to the owner of the auction house for providing a central and safe place for trade. This vendor fee would be one of the perks for buying the Xsyon Auction House Add On.

Side Note;
Major Kudos to Short Sam for his trade area and his attempt at creating a functioning central trade area. This is the best we have seen since the game started, but it still falls short because of the mechanics available. Lots of empty totems, the need to view each totems one at a time since not all tribes are allied, the nuisance of hauling items half way across the world to this one spot 30 to 45 minutes away (That's without a heavy cart), rather than to closer location around the lake. The need to "Ally" with another tribe to have an off tribe trade port, then the tribes quits and you need to find another tribe and start over.

Who gains from an Auction House?
The benefits of an actual auction house is that anyone can buy or sell there. The items listed from any player could be viewed and purchased in one view eliminating the need to view a forest of empty totems. It would be player built and player run. It would allow remote tribes to open shop in more commercial friendly areas. It could feasibly create auction and trade districts around the lake where people would know provide a wealth of goods and a safe area to trade. It would allow hostile tribes that want to remain hostile to have a trade port while still keeping their tribe autonomy. It provides a better business opportunity for the players like Short Sam who want to be merchants and traders and provides some additional income for the owners of the trade expansion who are willing to fork out a bit more money for an Auction house. I believe they will be longer lasting since anyone who opts for an expansion is likely a serious long term player. Lastly it could add a bit of revenue to Xsyon for the add on purchase ($14.95??) and an additional nominal monthly fee of something like $7.95 And should the owner end his Auction House subscription, the Auction Totem would decay just like a tribe totem. Once decay starts no new items can be posted and all unsold items will expired or sell before the Auction house expires.

I would buy this expansion :p

Thoughts and Critiques welcomed.

[Riverspirit]

I like this idea. Well thought out and nicely stated Willow. This would add a fun player driven trade function to the game. And I like the idea of a safe trade area where players can hang out. Then the auction house owner could also hold public auctions or trade fairs as well. Merchant type players would have a blast with this. Marking the auction house on the mini map would be nice too. Having a row of auction houses (auction strip mall) so you can visit them all would be awesome. Being able to see other auction houses' merchandise.. Yes, I do like this idea. Kinda like Trade totems on steroids. ;)

[MrDDT]

If you are talking about an AH where you can see what is being sold anywhere, I agree.

If you are talking about an AH where you can buy anything from anywhere, I disagree.

The localized resources, selling, etc is one of the major reasons EVE economy works like it does. Xsyon has local resources, it's not the issue, it's all the other things that go into it.
I've always been one to display more of what items are being sold and where. I've never been one to see items magically transported across the world. Like deathport, and AH.

[wastelandstoic]

Personally, I have always enjoyed the auction houses in other games and think a full and (magically) functioning AH would work and be a great addition to this game. Never played Eve so I have no idea how things work there. I do get the point concerning regional resources and local trade but there is no reason an AH system that functions between zones adjacent to your tribe and allies could not fit the bill. Then at set times during the year (seasonally based?) anyone who wanted could travel to a central location (Founders Isle?) put down a trade totem and see ALL other tribes totems/goods that were present. This could last for 5-7 days. i.e. a gathering of clans, bonfire celebrations ECT. Other mechanics and events could be built in and based around this system.

Also, if Xsyon wanted to make the economy based more off regions and their specific resources then a resource specific map should be should be created (weather or not its revealed to players) and well thought out where exceptions could be made to the totem trade system that might exclude certain areas to certain tribes based on the distribution and dynamics of an intended resource system.

As it stands now, and since trade totems have been in game, I personally have never bought or sold from the totem and only once place a few items for sale (which I never saw again). Don't get me wrong here I'm in no way knocking the game as I enjoy it a great deal. This particular feature just has no interest for me.

[MrDDT]

Personally, I have always enjoyed the auction houses in other games and think a full and (magically) functioning AH would work and be a great addition to this game. Never played Eve so I have no idea how things work there. I do get the point concerning regional resources and local trade but there is no reason an AH system that functions between zones adjacent to your tribe and allies could not fit the bill. Then at set times during the year (seasonally based?) anyone who wanted could travel to a central location (Founders Isle?) put down a trade totem and see ALL other tribes totems/goods that were present. This could last for 5-7 days. i.e. a gathering of clans, bonfire celebrations ECT. Other mechanics and events could be built in and based around this system.

Also, if Xsyon wanted to make the economy based more off regions and their specific resources then a resource specific map should be should be created (weather or not its revealed to players) and well thought out where exceptions could be made to the totem trade system that might exclude certain areas to certain tribes based on the distribution and dynamics of an intended resource system.

As it stands now, and since trade totems have been in game, I personally have never bought or sold from the totem and only once place a few items for sale (which I never saw again). Don't get me wrong here I'm in no way knocking the game as I enjoy it a great deal. This particular feature just has no interest for me.


Saying something "will work" is a stretch because what is "working" meaning someone uses it? Well people use the current system, but I don't expect people are using the totems much right now, which has little to do with being AH style or not.
If you had an AH system, I promise you, you would not like it without other changes. I could very likely place 90% of the items on the AH for sale undercutting everyone because money doesnt matter to IS, we have so many resources and currency it wouldnt matter.
Worse is because IS has millions in currency, they could inflate the market by buying up items. You think prices are high at IS just think of them buying up all the items and repricing them higher. Currency has little use in game as IS can't use the millions we have, so it would cause a hardship on all the newer players.
I'm not saying we would do this, just saying you can see how it could run into problems.

Item's in Xsyon are so cheap and easy to get, even right now it's not worth most people's time to put the items up for sale then collect them, even when you have known buyers.
What you going to put up tools for 20$ each tool at a time? Walk outside your tribe and pull up 100$ worth of items or resources faster than the time it takes to post something for 20$.
I understand your tribe tried trading, and you can see how bad it is in Xsyon. It's not due to a missing AH though, its due to how the items are worth and useful and demand vs supply.

You remember when we had guide events where they would teleport people to founders for trading? Remember why they stopped it? People stopped wanting to do it. That's instant transporting of goods, but few people would even show up, even out of the ones online and actively trading. They were doing it once per week too, just think if they had something like that everyday all day long. It would quickly be not used like the current totems.

I agree all trade totems should display ALL items from all tribes, I was told they didn't want it that way. I still think all totems should display all items and the location they are in (zone, X and Y pos). This will help with people seeing where items are, regional prices.
Could even put options on your totem if you want to make your totem a "private" trade totem so it wont be displayed if people have issues.
But magically transporting items is not good for economy and I think most players will find they will be unhappy with it.

I will leave it with this, trade in Xsyon has issues for many reasons. AH would solve none and cause more issues.

[wastelandstoic]

I will leave it with this, trade in Xsyon has issues for many reasons. AH would solve none and cause more issues.

...in your opinion. No need for bold print we are all little people here throwing around our little opinions. :)

Admittedly, I don't see a viable AH for Xsyon without a larger population and more 'fluff'/ vanity items. Further down the road I'd welcome it. Certainly a moot issue at this time as the development list marches on...

[Ragnar]

First, let me say that I agree trade in Xsyon needs to be addressed. The supply and demand are not in sync and thus the amount of trade is very limited. It is mainly granite and blueprints and occasionally carts that are traded from what I have seen in my 2 1/2 months. Currency is an issue, yes. Lack of need or use of currency is an issue, I agree. 5 currencies that appear to have very equal drop quantities and frequency with no appreciable difference other than their icon and name is also an issue as it just makes trading a bit more difficult on a totem or other interface that only accepts 1 type of the currency.

Now, let me also address that 90 days to check your totem is more than adequate. And in response to the statement that no major MMO has items poof, you must not think of World of Warcraft as a major MMO. They give you 30 days to claim any sales or purchases in email from the AH and if you don't, "it is simply discarded and any item or money attached to it is lost" as quoted from their wiki. I do not find it unreasonable to require you to check your sales totem once in 90 days. It was not, to my knowledge, designed to be an unlimited storage facility meant to hold items for years.

One of the issues I see about the economy and you folks have not mentioned is that with each character fairly able to do anything in game, few individuals truly seek any support from anyone beyond themselves or their tribe at best. The few exceptions are the few items currently traded. Many tribes are completely self sufficient and need or look for nothing outside of their tribe. Understandable. Bad for economy and trade, but very understandable.

This is an MMO yet there is in many ways a feeling more of a game of small groups or individuals. There is not a lot of trade or any other cross tribe or multi-person activity. I believe some of that would be eased with more players, but still, the need to do anything outside of your small association of friends or tribe mates isn't there. You don't need the other folks in game for resources or materials, you don't need the money you could get from supplying them with such things. These are the issues I feel may need to be addressed before worrying about a truly functional or viable off-line trade mechanism.

This is just my opinion and please take it as that. I have not been here nearly as long as many of you have. So if there are things I have missed, please, enlighten me. We as players have to try to make this economy work as much as the developer. We were given a blank template to work with essentially, we need to try and work with it.