Sad to see...

[Azzym]

I know I will step on many toes here but I think the decision to add a pure pve server was unlucky. In one big sweep it killed off the pvp server (well, I could be wrong but so far no luck in meeting anyone on that server). Did they all go to the pve-server then? All we can do is to hope they did. In a worst case scenario they quit.

In the long run I think some people playing on the pve server will grow restless by the constraints put on them. Right now people won't notice because they are all busy sewing new blue jeans and raising the same tents their neighbour have. Once that goody-goody feeling settles and the realisation comes over them that this is it - it will lead to frustration. (this is where the crowd goes "booo, you are all wrong") Arguments about how many things there are to do will be raised in objection to the last statement. Questions like, ohhh, there are so many things to build and in so many ways. Cloth to be had, fabricated and sewn into clothes. Leather to ... well do leathery things with and such. But... it all boils down to the question - What for?

With Pvp gone (I was really no fan of it at all, but accepted it) even the slight thrill of meeting new people is gone. I used to think "Is that dude with those aweful gymshoes and his fishing pole gonna try to smack me, or is it a new friend"? The element of surprise and danger is gone.


I wrote a lengthy post about things I would like to see in Xsyon in the future. When I read it again I realise it was all about one thing, really. Give me a reason to struggle and survive. Add elements into the game that force players to join up together in order to survive. Let nature wreak havoc. Let fires burn down villages (oh my god how wonderful that would be) and let storms lay waste to forests. Let the mist move around and cover new areas. In short - let there be danger. And while doing so - let things like clothes, building materials, armor/weapons matter.


To me it seems Xsyon has gone a way I really wasn't expecting it to head. I was hoping for more of a survival game whereas it now plunges itself into a building and tailoring simulator. If I want to build a large ass tower or a chineese wall (for even no reason at all since you are never in any danger) I will do that in Lego(tm) or Minecraft not Xsyon.

I keep myself updated about the game and logon every now and then in hope to see changes that bring Xsyon closer to the right path - my path hehe. For those of you who are happy with the Child-Proof world as it is - good luck and have fun (watch out where you put that needle...) . Ill be back when I can die of hunger, thirst, scorching my ass on the camp fire or in any other number of insane ways have my ass handed to me.

[unclean666]

Xsyon said long ago that the game will change based off what the player base wants and if they want it 100% safe from other players then I except that.With that being said im moving on to another game because pvp has been ignored for 3 years and I dont see that changing anytime soon.In fact I seeing it being even more ignored then it already has and there wont be anything to draw any pvp mined people to that server leaving the pvp server DEAD!

Im not even a pvp person im a crafter but I love the aspect of danger.This game is headed down a road I dident sign up for 3 years ago.I was on the pve server this morning and already seen all the talk about the pve server needs this and that.So yeah no thanks im not going to fight over what each server needs and what servers he should be adding stuff in.But I wish Xsyon the best of luck.

[Eyesgood]

It has been my experience playing sandbox MMO's that the PVE crowd typically holds up the game financially. There are many, many, many more people who enjoy PVE over PVP - sometimes by as much as 75% but more typically 2/3. So it makes sense from an economic perspective that Xsyon would open a PVE server in order to increase the player-base sufficiently to make the whole game viable for the company.

Here is something else to think about. Games that are of the hardcore full-loot, perma-death, open world PVP types tend to only hold very small populations of players. When you throw in the sandbox element, a game simply cannot flourish with ONLY PVP. These are just my opinions, of course.

As for Xsyon turning into a "building and tailoring" game - it has been that from the start. So I think your predictions about PVE restlesness is just not correct. I think Xsyon will grow 4x because of this decision. If they had created a clean map where all items, skills, and everything were pristine and new - I would not be surprised to have seen an 8-10 fold increase in players. People love to start things fresh.

Just my 2c worth.

[znaiika]

I belive as well that if Xsyon added cleen server more people would join in, it is not too late to add cleen pve server yet.
And I agree with you Eyesgood 100%.

[Wilson423]

I agree with Azzym. There is no threat. I didn't think there was much threat before on pvp server, but it made me keep my eyes open... I've never been ganked in xsyon and I always get ganked...

Good Post!!

[Kegan]

No threat i am getting killed buy all sorts of animals everyday since the new server opened up. Sure there will need to be more content for the PvE server but it is clear that what he was doing was not working something had to change.

[fatboy21007]

Yea, animals are insanely high and staying high, you all talk about survival, go scav by the mist or med zones, Youll find life difficult hehe. Only easy living areas atm is by the lake as it should be. So if u want that hardcore survival feeling, head to the mist, i promise ya, ull be on ur toes 24/7. Since the server opened up, trading has been booming, people are going to all corners of the map to see trade totems and simply trade. seen a fair bit of new faces and some older returnees. So in my opinion the pve server was a great idea, as statistics show Pve populations are always 40-75% higher then that of pvp, because pvp kills off its enemys to a point they simply stop playing. Where as pve, works together and tends to do more group related things and ofc crap ton of crafting. But the game is wat you make of it, so if ur not having fun, then its not for ya. Xsyon wont cater to everyone :-)

[xaradt]

This happened in UO when Trammel hit, the PVP folks complained, mainly due to the lack of easy pickings in the PVE folks that left.

Truth is, as has been stated, more people like PVE than do PVP, so this change makes sense to me.

There are many ways a PVE server can be made interesting and challenging, that don't involve random murder, now the servers have been split, we can hope to see some of these things in the near future.

And as fatboy said, if you want a little more danger, head to the areas further out, it's way more fun in the wilds :)

[MrDDT]

This happened in UO when Trammel hit, the PVP folks complained, mainly due to the lack of easy pickings in the PVE folks that left.

Truth is, as has been stated, more people like PVE than do PVP, so this change makes sense to me.

There are many ways a PVE server can be made interesting and challenging, that don't involve random murder, now the servers have been split, we can hope to see some of these things in the near future.

And as fatboy said, if you want a little more danger, head to the areas further out, it's way more fun in the wilds :)

I agree most people do love PVE.

But if you do not give PVE players PVE content, they will leave just as did the PVPers did without PVP content or support. I hope he does do something to support one or the other or both. But we will see, I really hope that PVEers can support this game for more work to be done on it. I wish you guys luck, I will be waiting for that day.

[Rheanon]

I agree most people do love PVE.

But if you do not give PVE players PVE content, they will leave just as did the PVPers did without PVP content or support. I hope he does do something to support one or the other or both. But we will see, I really hope that PVEers can support this game for more work to be done on it. I wish you guys luck, I will be waiting for that day.

I agree 100%. If PVE is going to succeed, there has to be more content. All the building options are great but what good is an empty building? Where are the tables and chairs, beds, fireplaces, rugs, stoves, lighting fixtures, ceramic and metal plates forks spoons, cooking, farming, and their corresponding tools, all the elements required to make an immersive world enjoyable? Not only does the crafting of these serve to enhance the game but it also serves to strengthen the game economy which again strengthens the community. If these are implemented, Xsyon will become a true immersive world. If it is, then more players will be attracted to Xsyon and existing PvE players will stay and/or keep their accounts active so their tribes will be there whenever they want to play. I think some thought should be given to this if the game is to succeed. Just my 2 cents on the subject

[MaSsFeAr]

Im newer to game but it seems a fresh server with pvp being a flag on or off for would of been the better option.

[millsdo]

I was glad to see the PVE server. I hate PVP. But, it did probably kill the PVP server. I hope the Steam launch will bring in fresh blood and I hope the tutorial will be completed before Steam launches. Lord help us if it's not....

[znaiika]

Xsyon should make pvp server as consentual pvp, and things will pick-up.

[Arkonick]

Just want to pint out that with low pvp player base low income and no real funds to hire people to help develop and maintain the company it dies. Pve has always been the biggest player base in mmo's so Funds will pour in higher than the pvp serv allowing for the development to move now finally also helping the development for pvp server.

The stuff needs funds to survive and a hand full of pvp players are not enough funds.
Soe always has 5 times to 10 times the pve servers cause it is there bread and butter. Just want to point out you need fans to get funds and when the high majority of fans are pve and against pvp you can't exspect them to come in and fund your pvp game when they don't like pvp.

Take Wurm online for example the pvp servers have no more than 250 at any time online while the pve servers combined have a total of more than 1200 online. If Rolf was to turn all his pve server's into pvp he would lose over 1000 paying customers.

This is what happen to Xsyon pretty much a ton of people came in on the fact there would be a pve server cause almost every building sandbox out had a pve server and pvp server. But xsyon isn't the only sandbox type game suffering from going full pvp no pve server look at mortal online it flocked at the start and now is almost dead. There trying but it isn't good enough.

[Mactavendish]

You hit the nail smack dab on the head there.

Those that speak about wanting pvp the main option are really speaking about their OWN personal wants and desires, and that has nothing to do with the realities of getting an mmo (sandbox or not) off the ground.

PvP players want the instant gratification of pawning other players, as this is the kind of reward they crave. PvE players also want to make a name for themselves, but are satisfied with player to player reputation, and accomplishments that others can see ( like a cool building or a bit well run tribe ) and are not so much the instant gratification types.

PvE IS the bread and butter of mmorpgs and that will not likely change anytime soon. I believe Xsyon is going in exactly the right direction, and I personally am very happy to have returned at this time.

[Deacon]

PVP wasn't the reason Xsyon was dying. Hate to break it to you. There really wasn't much if any PVP going on.

[Mactavendish]

Then what is your take Deacon?

I know for a fact that most of the people I had in my tribe left due to abuse from other players. ( One in particular )

If pvp had NOT been possible back then, most of us, I am very sure, would have still been playing.

Rarity of resources, buffed animals, tediousness of some crafting, did not drive all the builder/crafter types away. It is what most of them enjoy in a game, long term commitment and effort for a sense of accomplishment. Some will say here that building sucks and having to use dirt to build multi-story structures in unacceptable, but I would counter with all the cool things folks have built here.

So, again, what is your take Deacon?

[GuideXaphan]

There was always a stigma attached to the game though because even if pvp was not taking place people just don't want to play on a server that has the potential for it even if it never occurs or very rarely did. There was always a chance and just having the tag line pvp attached to it would keep players away.

[Glorp]

mO.Om....

Glorp here...out from under his rock and stealing my Sister's fish.

Sadly I have started some debates in global on the PVE server to no avail. Without reading any lore and just looking at the basic Scheme of the game...Its Post Apocolyptic and we are the survivors. Now Bill likes to build because he was a construction supervisor before this all happened, Jane...well she likes to make baskets and sew clothes...Fred tho...was a lazy city boy who never wanted to build or sew...instead he stole the apple from the market, took the clothes from his neighbors clothesline and sadly killed a passerby to get some coin to buy a beer.
All of these types are here in Xsyon....If this was true to form, you would have to keep an eye out for Fred...Fred's are out there...but...Now The PVE server has taken a part of the basic scheme of the game away and has Forced any Fred's to attampt to be civilized.. We ( as in the people who like both ) made our Pitch To Jordi....it waas considered but upon some vote, was out voted to just make an additional PVE server.
My Bottom line is: the game has turned down a path where the light shines the brightest but the sun will set without a reason for us to be doing all that can be done. No PVP...well there better damn be some main mob we all have to band together to kill or it will start tearing apart all our hard work, No PVP...give me a better reason to stay and utilize what i have learned and what i can make.
As i get blasted for it in global ill prolly get blasted for it here too...

Welcome to Hello Kitty Xsyon

going to go crawl back under my rock till a 1100 hp Rev comes to tear my camp down

Glorp

[MrDDT]

There was always a stigma attached to the game though because even if pvp was not taking place people just don't want to play on a server that has the potential for it even if it never occurs or very rarely did. There was always a chance and just having the tag line pvp attached to it would keep players away.

Any game that says it has something but is punished by guides, and not supported by the devs to fix issues with it, will fail. You can say this for ANY feature in any game.

If you were punished for terraforming, and it was buggy, and you lagged while doing it, then broke your buildings while trying to do it, then couldnt change it back etc, people would think that terraforming would be bad also. This is what happens when you don't support a major feature in the game whether you want to call it a major one or not, FFA PVP is always a major feature.

Just to list a few of the issues with PVP.

1)No reason to PVP other than griefing or bragging.
2)No option to track players.
3)No punishments for people killing new players or anyone for any reason.
4)Combat is laggy and desynced not been fixed for over 2 years.
5)Attacking other players in game is punished by guides without as griefing without a true ruleset.
6)Advanced players are in the same areas as new players.
7)No objectives to take for PVP.
8)No special moves in combat (stuns, high damage skill etc)
9)No healing
10)Super long respawn times for most people
11)Travel is horrid to move around
12)No way to res other players
13)No party system

Just to list a some, I can go on, but I think people get the point. PVP and combat overall is not supported in this game.

You can say that "PVP" is tagged to it, but Minecraft, and EVE online are both huge successful sandbox games that have PVP. I can't think of any other "sandbox" game that is bigger that doesnt have PVP in some way shape or form.

You guys got what you wanted, it's good that Xsyon is doing a direction that he is willing to support. Clearly you can see what it did to the PVP server, how many people are logged on there now? None, as expected. If none are on the PVP server, does that mean that none are wanting PVP? No. Just means PVP is so jacked up no one wants to play on a PVP server.

[GuideXaphan]

And now there is two options for those who want either or.

[erozaxx]

PVP wasn't the reason Xsyon was dying. Hate to break it to you. There really wasn't much if any PVP going on.

Upping this comment. I am also usually the crafter guy getting pawned by PvPer guys, but I have never experienced more "noble" and friendly PVP skirmishes than on Xsyon. MrDDT being on local, luring me out from hiding and trying to find me on the local map one day bringing that tickling to my neck and driving nuts of me from the fear of getting discovered, and on the other hand meeting him a day after doing trade with him or just chatting with him on a friendly note on Global. That was never experienced in HnH, UO or other games with PvP i've played. On Xsyon ppl are just friendly, no matter if tribals or enemies.

My oppinion corresponds to others, that PvP was giving to Xsyon that spice, which it currently lacks on PVE content and was really not killing the game. I believe that to some exent PvE can be challenging, but there will come a point, where tribal wars will be missing to utilize the uber-best-cool clothes/weapons/armor/skills.

But I'll be watching anyway :)

[MrDDT]

And now there is two options for those who want either or.

Sorry, which one is the option that has working PVP that is supported by the devs and not punished by the guides? Where there is rez, healing, no desync in combat, etc etc?

Not sure which server that is....

[znaiika]

Make pvp server as consensual and thing will change.

[znaiika]

I just can't beleve how pvp crowd is only talking about pvp, but that just is "TALK", they don't support their theory, with pve players gone there are no one to harass they too quikly deminished, now we can see how vocal pvp crowd is and small, they never supported their theory, pvp crowd fed only on pveers to survive, shame on you talking about feel of danger and all that, because realy you want is to have someone to pick-on.

Why don't you man-up and prove that you can support your pvp theory, and don't look for excuses, that just lame way of not playing.

[Deacon]

well, here is my "take"

The people who left because of perceived persecution via pvp, would have left anyway, as they wanted a total safe game .. so the Zeds and animals would have run them off as well. They left and used the pvp excuse because they couldn't hit an auto win button. They started crap and boasted, but when it came to cashing the check, they had insufficient funds. I watched from the sidelines with amusement.

This game is dying because of lack of content .. updates .. once you build, there is nothing to really do because there isn't an economy that requires other people to help support you. Anyone and everyone can do it all. why worry about the best gear, if there is no reason for it? People just couldn't hang on waiting for farming, archery etc., so moved on, thus diminishing the population even more. Sure there comes the new people now and again, but how long do they actually stay ? Once they are tired of stacking dirt and building they leave. You cant tell me honestly that all the people coming back because of pve server left because they were intimidated by pvp. Pvp was so little, they had to have tournaments just to get people involved in it.

So basically, no one plays to be just a scavenger because everyone can do it. No one plays to be just a crafter because no one needs your craft because everyone can make it. Equipment doesn't have to be that good, average works fine to get any job done.

I trained my skills to be a soldier .. but alas, no one needed my protection .. so I built forts .. but once built, there was nothing to do.


EDIT: corrected some bad spelling

[Mactavendish]

I can see part of what you are saying and can agree in to some of it.

I can also see DDT's points about how broken the pvp system is.

However, as seems to be true for so many, you are using all inclusive statements when it is not that simple.

Take for instance, on the PVE server, the only player that can make the 20 slot carts seems to be baby. Here is one area that being the best in your field come in. Sure, you can't become rich and famous for that, but it is a huge accomplishment.

Atm that is really all this game truly provides, a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction of SEEING your handywork in the world. For most of the builder/crafter types that why they do it. They don't really care about bragging how they nuked newbies. Its also about feeling that you help another person in some way.

This xsyon sandbox PVE server provides plenty to the pve player and will not die due to pvp'er doom and gloom. FUD is all it is and completely Non-Sequitur. Call it hello-kitty xsyon all you want, but at least Jordi is supporting it, and new people are coming and and returning players pop up almost every day.

[Deacon]

yea, we'll see in a few months how much it thrives I guess. Just don't be surprised when the conversation turns to another reason for leaving when pvp is not a valid excuse. As I was saying, there was never any real pvp going on anyway. For now people have a sense of security and hope it will be better. The reason people left was mostly because of horrid launch and lack of meaningful updates.

Don't mistake this for being mad, I am not. I have always liked Jordi since Roma victor days, he has always treated me with respect and kindness.

[Mactavendish]

I sure don't believe you are mad. However I do believe that you forgot that at launch it was stated there would be slow updates, a lack of funding to support updates and this was an indy game in progress.

[MrDDT]

I sure don't believe you are mad. However I do believe that you forgot that at launch it was stated there would be slow updates, a lack of funding to support updates and this was an indy game in progress.

I was here at launch, and he said many things Mactavendish. Which ones do you pick and choose? Archery? Prelude will last a short time? Expand the mist? New animals? Bridges? Healing? I can list more.

I think it's funny that after every major update there is an increase of players yet still even after the increase people leaving in droves!

Anyways, I will expect that the PVP server will stay unpopulated until they start making changes to combat and other things I listed.

I hope Xsyon does something right and focuses his game and stops trying to follow the will of a few people. I hope steam does help, because I doubt the current pop will help much with updates.

[GuideXaphan]

The population is up and increasing. Retention is higher than it was with just the pvp server alone. I think with the addition of what Xsyon has laid out he wants before the steam release it should continue increasing and tutorial should help new players that come in and feel lost on what to begin with or what to do.

[znaiika]

I hope Xsyon does something right and focuses his game and stops trying to follow the will of a few people. I hope steam does help, because I doubt the current pop will help much with updates.

This is what I have been saing for ages DDT, and you know well what I meant.

[Azzym]

I hope the increasing population means that Jordi can focus on reaching his goals, even if they aren't directly parallell to what I want to see.

First of all, I was never a PVP'er and my post was not really adressing the pvp issue. It was about risk, danger and excitement. Pvp played that role together with revenants and wild animals. To me all three elements were really out of reach due to extremely weird lag as soon as it went down to combat. Synchronization issues in its worst form where I thought I was hitting my target when in fact I was being get at from behind. I once set up two computers so I could record on both at the same time but it was just too hillarious to watch. Not one thing was correct :) Anyway, apart from combat, I had lots of fun on the pvp server.

I remember one early spring morning when I had moved just south of where XM used to be. I had this pile of junk all to myself and was sipping down my morning coffee when I caught some movement among the trees. Not seeing a human being in ages I mentally shook it off as some form of wishful thinking. I grabbed a basket and pulled up my pants and headed south. For some reason I cast a glance behind my back and caught sight of a little rascal coming at me with an axe. My reaction wasn't even to be afraid because the axe was almost larger than the guy wielding it. I remember thinking, "whoa, what an angry little kid that is, does he want to play?" And that was all I got time to think before I went out with a bang, that's how I met Dang.

A few months later I had my camp setup in 820. I led a peaceful life talking to trees and chopping down neighbours. I see this huge man coming at me with a basket on his back and a shovel in his hand. The shovel almost looked like a toy in this giants hand if it hadn't been for the very very sharp edges and the blood on it. I realised I was in extreme danger and shut my eyes in an attempt to embrace certain death. After a few rustles and some "oompfs" later I opened my eyes again only to see a basket on the ground in front of me. Of the giant there was no signs. A look inside the basket rewarded me with enough meat for a month and bones and whatnots all coming from that enormous bear which had plagued me for the last week. This was how I met MrDDT. I found the gift so nice I started to collect a few leftovers from my own hunting trips and put them in a basket. I handed out a few to my closest friends. To my big surprise they didn't apreciate the gifts of animal heads in baskets labelled "AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE". This led to some very heated and intersting discussions on local about who that Mischief dude was and why the hell he would threaten us?

I got many memories from adventures in the game and the most precious ones invlolve the element of danger. I do not remember or have repressed the endless grinds because they are plainly not fun no matter how you do it. It does not have to be PVP, but it was one thing that could be lethal. Animals were NOT dangerous in any way. Since I couldn't fight them I just jumped up on a rock and problem was solved. There is a difference between "being in danger" and "being stupid" :)

[GuideXaphan]

I know that some of you have written off pvp in this game with the addition of the pve server, I get that. I'm all for pvp myself but you have to realize that pve has a larger player-base and that will trickle down in to the pvp server as more players come in to the game and it gets more popular. As a pvp only server game it was not increasing but slightly decreasing month after month, and you can only keep on thinking pvp will eventually pay off for so long. I know a lot of people that are for a pvp only game seen this as a move that was needed to increase player retention and bring in those alienated players who liked the game but left because of it being FFA full loot. When the game first released it had a good amount of players but due to server issues and other things it gradually died down a lot, a lot of things have been addressed and issues resolved but pvp was one of the major reasons players did leave as well. I've been seeing a few of those old names coming back in the game and enjoying what they wanted from the start, we also have more people playing now than the pvp server had alone. This is great from a business stand point as it shows there is a interest in a pve only server as boring as you all may think it is.

I liked the ever present danger of being killed by another player but a lot of people don't and didn't. I think this is a good move in the right direction for the game and not only the pve crowd who want to play in complete safety from FFA full loot but in due time it will benefit us pvp players as well with a ever increasing player-base. This equates to increased revenue and more people being brought in to work on the game than Jordi alone. We get more updates and content which is what we all are really after and keep expressing in multiple threads it seems. Give it some time.

[MrDDT]

We should add flying mounts, and new races. I know people like those also.

[Whorlok]

We should add flying mounts, and new races. I know people like those also.
the new races is arrieved --->Whorlokaner
and...
"PATIENCE YOUNG PADAWANS" Pvp is coming with ranged combat and resolved of the SYNC Problem!..IT NEEDS TIME as a good wine ..;)

[Deacon]

Well guide, Lets hope you're right and people didn't just flock to it because they thought the world would have been reset for pve therefore able to start in a fresh new land. You cant really say it's a success with out the test of time, pvp was a success at first as well. I know there are some dedicated players who have and will remain ... but lets see how the general public does.

As I've said before, people who left did so because the game became boring .... not really so much because of pvp. Like I said, there really wasn't that much going on, as it is broken.

But I honestly hope it does succeed.

[znaiika]

We should add flying mounts, and new races. I know people like those also.

Would not be ny different then revs, "

Creatures of mutation and mythology now populate the land
".

[Miroind]

I don't know about you guys, but I really like this game. It's got many of the options available that certain other sandboxes have provided over the last decade, and many new options on the horizon. We need to remember that this is a small development team, and there is a LOT of work that goes in to deploying these concepts. I see nothing but good coming for Xsyon, but we need to have patience for these things.

I suggest rather than QQ threads denouncing the faults of this work in progress, we continue writing suggestions... but not just poorly written run on sentence paragraphs that nobody can read because there was no proof reading involed in the hole commentari for making the suggestion and such.

That was horribly written, and I apologize. ;) Only partially, as I wanted to make a point. If you've got a suggestion, something you'd like to see out of this game, try elaborating on your suggestions. Write them up with suggested methods of implementation, and remember that this is a custom game engine, and the sky is the limit... but a limiting factor is the manpower involved.
I look forward to observing, experiencing, and getting to see this game's progress over the coming years.
Remember, some games take a decade to develop. Xsyon has had three.

[Miroind]

Another thought, I'd love to see optional PVP on the PvE server... rather than waking up to a potentially dismantled settlement (which is the major negative factor in games such as this...) I'd like to be able to pick and choose my fights.

[MrDDT]

Another thought, I'd love to see optional PVP on the PvE server... rather than waking up to a potentially dismantled settlement (which is the major negative factor in games such as this...) I'd like to be able to pick and choose my fights.

I'm not sure you have been around a while but clearly you do not understand how the current PVP system works (or doesnt work). Destroying a tribe area is not an option on the current WAR server, nor was it ever.

About the suggestions thing. I've made more suggestions for this game than I can count, after years of people going back and forth on it, or them not getting put into place, or poorly put into place you have to give up.

But I'm not going to down what Xsyon is doing. I just hope the game he has going is what he wants and keeps going at it.

[Miroind]

That's pretty important, ddt. I wasn't aware of all that, my experience with the game was over a year ago and I never got a chance to even briefly examine the mechanics. i was just told i could be killed and my stuff stolen. i can't see why anyone wants to have that happen.