Xsyon or Wurm

[darrellonte]

Anyone played both? What are the differences? Is one of them easier to get into and learn the basics in?

[Hodo]

Anyone played both? What are the differences? Is one of them easier to get into and learn the basics in?

I have played both, and I can tell you Xsyon is slightly better to me. Even though I currently play neither one.

Wurm maybe a more complete game at this point and has more in it, but the graphics are still pretty bad even though it just got a massive graphical overhaul. The combat system just flat out sucks and is a relic from the 1970s. The character customization options are non-existant. And the grind is just stupid. If you are into PvP, you will find that you need to grind for at least 5 months before you will even be considered low level skill of PvP, and that is if you manage to get the gear to do it. The community there is very clickish and fanboy driven, god help you if you say anything against Rolf and Wurm, you will be burned at the stake on the forums and possibly banned for pointing out obvious flaws in the game. It is also a real money driven game. So if you want silver coins in game, well pony up some Eurodollars and buy some. If you want to have a safe place to keep your stuff, aka a deed, you need to pay for it. And keep paying for it every month. If you are on a PvP server your deed can be drained of its money by other people if it is not propperly protected. And buying more "Spirit" guards isn't a good defense, they just cost a lot of real money per month and are easily avoided and killed by most players who have played for longer than a year.

Xsyon is not without its problems also. Development is slow.... slow would be nice, development is stagnant. The skill system isn't as grind driven as Wurm but it still is a grind. The combat system is really its shinning point, it is driven by the player not totally by some random number generator that is rolling some D20 behind the scenes. Character customization is another highlight of Xsyon, you can look completely different than anyone else if you want to and be fine.

Ultimately it is your choice, I suggest give them both a try.

[Eyesgood]

I have been playing Wurm for a little over 5 years. In all that time I think the longest I have taken a break from the game is about 60 days. Otherwise, I have pretty much played every day for multiple hours per day. And yet, after five years, there are still things I have not done in Wurm. Contrasting that, I have made two attempts to play Xsyon. My first was for two months and my second just a few days. I will try and add to the information you already have about both games.

The #1 biggest beef people will say about Wurm is the graphics. But to be totally honest, Wurm graphics are not bad at all. In fact, some of the graphics are extremely realistic, especially with the scenery. Character animations have improved a lot, but they are not quite up to par with what we would consider standard. Water, trees, animals (with the new models), housing materials, etc. are all excellent - some much better than Xsyon imho. For example, I would take Wurm trees any day of the week over the snake-wiggling unrealistic blobby trees of Xsyon. However, Xsyon excels over Wurm in combat and in the variety of things that you can forage and find. Also, I think the construction system in Xsyon is a bit better than Wurm because of the great variety in types. The crafting grind is excellent in both games if you really like to work for your skills so that they mean something. It would take longer in Wurm to reach max skill in a single skill than to max in many skills in Xsyon.

Now I will mention what is perhaps the greatest difference between the two games - to me. In Xsyon, you can own land but only a tiny piece of land unless you are in a village that has a population which allows more land. In Wurm, you can have as much land all to yourself as you can afford. Yes, land cost silver coins (in game money) and the costs to play Wurm are much higher than Xsyon because of it. But the fact that I can own my own private village (my current primary deed is 6000 game tiles in size) makes Wurm the winner for me overall. The second greatest difference to me is the end game. Xsyon's end game is a small village full of baskets of items you will probably never use. Wurm's end game is a deed of your own, crafting what items you want with skills you chose to master, and selling those items to other players in a market that is very mature. Just take a look at the Wurm Online forum and you will see that.

Xsyon is a nice game. But at this stage, it is not a mature game and the player base is very small. However, it is a gatherer's dream as there are things to gather in Xsyon unlike any other game I have ever seen. But what to do with all those baskets is the question I never could answer.

Watch some Youtube videos on both games and focus on the aspects of a sandbox you like (pvp or crafting) and see for yourself. That's the only way to know which you would like better.
Cheers.

[MrDDT]

Poundcake, I've yet to find anything that is even close to Wurm or Xsyon, not sure where you get off saying it's booming.

As old as Xsyon or Wurm are, they are still the only games in town when you want to be in a true sandbox.

[MrDDT]

Now I will mention what is perhaps the greatest difference between the two games - to me. In Xsyon, you can own land but only a tiny piece of land unless you are in a village that has a population which allows more land. In Wurm, you can have as much land all to yourself as you can afford. Yes, land cost silver coins (in game money) and the costs to play Wurm are much higher than Xsyon because of it. But the fact that I can own my own private village (my current primary deed is 6000 game tiles in size) makes Wurm the winner for me overall. The second greatest difference to me is the end game. Xsyon's end game is a small village full of baskets of items you will probably never use. Wurm's end game is a deed of your own, crafting what items you want with skills you chose to master, and selling those items to other players in a market that is very mature. Just take a look at the Wurm Online forum and you will see that.


One thing I find odd is that you are willing to pay for the monthly upkeep, plus the starting price of a 6000 game tile deed, which is about 37x37 sq radius Wurm tile side deed. Which is about 260$ USD give or take change in currency ratio, but if you were do buy accounts in Xsyon for that, you would have 8 or 9 accounts, and never have to pay monthly again for the upkeep giving you a 42x42 sq radius Xsyon totem range.
Not sure how you count Xsyon is "tiny" then use wurms as a better way. Now if you were to take that monthly cost you are doing in wurm, you could by a new account every 1 or 2 months, giving you even more space up to 200x200 sq radius in Xsyon.

Now I will agree with you on the economy point, and some of the other aspects, but the radius and size does not make sense. Having said that, note that Wurm has different sized tiles Xsyon is much more detailed in this respect, but I wouldn't call it "tiny".

Another thing I wanted to note, is the "end game" because the items in Xsyon end game are pretty solid level when you compare them to Wurm end game. Granted it takes longer to get to Wurm's end game gear, than in Xsyon, and Wurms are more powerful relatively, but I surely wouldn't say items you would never use. But because Wurms economy is more robust ( wouldn't say its good either) you can value it more.

[GuideXaphan]

Eyesgood, is and always will be a promoter for Wurm. DDT pretty much answered the size question is perfect fashion.

Wurm is a shop driven game, if you have the funds you can achieve more than anyone else quicker but not more so than someone who puts in the time and effort as they can get to that same level with invested time. Xsyon has no shop and so everyone has to grind their way to the top, IMO I like this type of system better and yes we need a working economy but in due time.

The wurm community is as Hodo described in his post, it is like that in game and on the forum. I suggest not using the forum to point things out but if you want to praise and worship it then you should be fine. Just take a few moment to read some of the posts but you'll only see those that are in line with what hodo pointed out and most usually get removed that are not pro wurm. I've had posts removed simply pointing out design flaws in a newly added item or feature only to get ignored or have posts removed, but got attention once you bleed and exploit the system. I have been contacted by Rolf and explained how it was done and also pointed him to a dead bug report that never was looked in to, he doesn't care though and that has been going on for a while.

Xsyon has it's flaws just as any game does but between the two I much prefer Xsyon because I like the systems that are in place and more thought has been put in to them than what I've used and experienced in wurm, as a former player from alpha/beta/gold 1/gold 2. That is nearly 8 years in the game until I finally woke up and seen how much wasted time I plugged in to a shop driven, grinding hole. The wurm grind is unlike any game on the market, when you break items down by multiple items that are required and those take you hours upon hours to get and take to high ql, it will drive you crazy once you stand back and look at something you spent months grinding the skill for and countless hours improving and for what? The item is the same anyone else can make and you are either using it or selling it. Gather, grind, sell/use, rinse, and repeat. Think about that when you do try the game out and give it a go.

[MrDDT]

Xsyon has it's flaws just as any game does but between the two I much prefer Xsyon because I like the systems that are in place and more thought has been put in to them than what I've used and experienced in wurm, as a former player from alpha/beta/gold 1/gold 2. That is nearly 8 years in the game until I finally woke up and seen how much wasted time I plugged in to a shop driven, grinding hole. The wurm grind is unlike any game on the market, when you break items down by multiple items that are required and those take you hours upon hours to get and take to high ql, it will drive you crazy once you stand back and look at something you spent months grinding the skill for and countless hours improving and for what? The item is the same anyone else can make and you are either using it or selling it. Gather, grind, sell/use, rinse, and repeat. Think about that when you do try the game out and give it a go.


I'm confused on how it's different in Xsyon than Wurm on those things you listed, in fact, I believe Wurms system is working better than Xsyon because items have a value/use/worth.

In Wurm and in Xsyon everyone can get skills to 100 both take time, Xsyon's time to get 100 in a skill is MUCH MUCH faster in fact, so finding a crafter in Wurm that is 100 skill in something is extremely rare. So saying "same as anyone else can make" is a huge stretch in Wurm, but not in Xsyon. Also of course crafted items would be either used or sold, what else in any game do you do with crafted items?

I would not use that as a negative for Wurm online or Xsyon. I wish I could sell items in Xsyon but the economy is so crappy that you can't. Few people are even willing to pony up anything for something crafted by another player, they are much much more likely to just want to "do it themselves", because of how poorly done the economy is in Xsyon, almost as if no thought at all was given into economy in Xsyon.

The grind in Wurm is very harsh and I can see where most people would see that as a bad thing, I even felt how harsh it is and became bored with it. Xsyon's a grind is very easy and getting 5+ skills to 100 can be done in a week or two, which makes it so that true crafters are rarely worth putting effort into their craft as getting 100 in Xsyon is easy, and the items you make are barely better than a low/moderate skilled crafter making it. On top of that, the usefulness of high QL and high skilled crafted items are few and far between.

Xsyon needs a major look at economy and drive of doing things (like gear to kill big game animals). There is little survival or need of high tier items which should drive skilled crafting / gathering and in turn would drive skilled gatherers also. Until this is done I fear Xsyon's numbers will be hovering around the same level they currently are.

Major reason not to play Wurm IMO is simply the outdated graphics/interface. If you can get past that, Wurm is a great game with a LOT of sandbox features.

[Eyesgood]

Eyesgood, is and always will be a promoter for Wurm. DDT pretty much answered the size question is perfect fashion.

I am a promoter OF Wurm not FOR Wurm. I don't work for Rolf and never would. But, to be fair to me, I would promote ANY sandbox MMO that is good. In fact, I have promoted THIS MMO to friends many times. And please dear sir, do not say that I worship any MMO. I don't. And I will be perfectly honest with you. I tried Xsyon because I do not worship Wurm. I tried Xsyon because I saw the potential for it to surpass Wurm. But for reasons I don't need to repeat, I stayed with Wurm. However, I would LOVE for Xsyon to succeed and if it surpassed Wurm - that would be fine. In the end, I just want a great sandbox MMO that is solid and mature with the systems that make crafting fun and viable. So far, Wurm is the only one I feel meets that need for me personally, even though I admit whole-heartedly that I HATE how much it costs me to play Wurm. I was one of the major complainers on the forum when Rolf jacked the premium by 60%. I still get boiled about it.

So, I just wanted to let my intentions be known. I am not some paid Wurmian sent out to promote the game and discredit others. Those that know me know that I am sincere and objective - albeit not to everyone's liking I am sure.

Cheers.

[Eyesgood]

One thing I find odd is that you are willing to pay for the monthly upkeep, plus the starting price of a 6000 game tile deed, which is about 37x37 sq radius Wurm tile side deed. Which is about 260$ USD give or take change in currency ratio, but if you were do buy accounts in Xsyon for that, you would have 8 or 9 accounts, and never have to pay monthly again for the upkeep giving you a 42x42 sq radius Xsyon totem range.
Not sure how you count Xsyon is "tiny" then use wurms as a better way. Now if you were to take that monthly cost you are doing in wurm, you could by a new account every 1 or 2 months, giving you even more space up to 200x200 sq radius in Xsyon.

Now I will agree with you on the economy point, and some of the other aspects, but the radius and size does not make sense. Having said that, note that Wurm has different sized tiles Xsyon is much more detailed in this respect, but I wouldn't call it "tiny".

Another thing I wanted to note, is the "end game" because the items in Xsyon end game are pretty solid level when you compare them to Wurm end game. Granted it takes longer to get to Wurm's end game gear, than in Xsyon, and Wurms are more powerful relatively, but I surely wouldn't say items you would never use. But because Wurms economy is more robust ( wouldn't say its good either) you can value it more.

I guess I wasn't considering the ability to purchase alts and alt up the village to increase a personal totem space. That would work and yes it probably is much cheaper than Wurm! :)

[Hodo]

@MrDDT, The Sandbox game world development is booming right now. Instead of one or two indi-titles coming out, there are 4 this year alone that I have been tracking not including those made by mods of existing games and turned into persistent online worlds.
-The Repopulation
-Life is Feudal
-Gloria Victis
-Arch Age

Those are just a few, there are about a half dozen if not more others that I don't remember the name to.

[MrDDT]

All 4 of those games are not out yet. So, not sure how you can say they are any good.

[unclean666]

Arch Age: Great Game but not even close to the same type of game as Xsyon or Wurm.
The Repopulation: Not even close to being done.
Gloria Victis: I have been playing the pre alpha looks nice but not the same type of game as Xsyon or Wurm.
Life Is Feudal: this is the only game like Xsyon or wurm and the one im most excited about because of that but tbh its a LONG ways away if it even sees the light of day.

Like ddt said theres no game like Xsyon or Wurm.....ive been trying to fill the void after leaving Xsyon and theres just nothing out there.

[MrDDT]

Interesting response DDT... Xsyon still isn't techinically released yet either, right? "Prelude"?

Arche Age is out and is awesome.
Repopulation just had a succesful round of crowd funding and is in early stage of alpha. The activity around the game looks promising, and their road map (and the fact that they even have one) is well defined. They're going to do well looking like SWG.

I hadn't seen the next two, so here are my first impressions:
Life is Feudal looks fantastic and seems to be a fairly active project. They clearly have some good ideas and technology, but the quality of the presentation is lacking. I fear this will become the next in the family of 'Wurm's and 'Xsyon's -- bit off too much than they could chew and did not deliver a polished product.
Gloria Victis looks a lot like Life is Feudal, though their presentation gives me more confidence in their ability to deliver. Also, they are in alpha.

And to add to that list is a game I just got into closed beta for: Everquest Landmark.

The tech behind Wurm and Xsyon is objectively ancient, compared to the games listed above. Dumping your $15/mo * number of accounts you have subscribed (< lol) is silly when you could be trying new more viable products.

Aside from that, my earlier comment was not talking specificaly about MMOs. As has been mentioned in this thread already, Xsyon's economy is... non existant. You barely interact with the other players, so the fact that it is an MMO is really not that important. Same goes to the survival aspect and any kind of real meaning behind the crafting and building aspects. If you want a game that does survival crafting well, single player or server'd games are a good way to go for the time being. Steam is full of those.

Xsyon HAS been released since 2010. He called it Prelude because it was going to be updated in chapters, we have not left the prelude chapter yet.

As others said, those games are not even close to what Xsyon is, or not even close to being out.

IMO LIF is the closest thing to Wurm/Xsyon and again it's not even remotely ready to be released and like many small project dev games it might never see "the light of day" as Unclean said.

Adding Everquest Landmark to the list means that you might have seen that Landmark has NONE of the aspects of a game and it is a building simulator. Everquest Next is what the game is going to be like. So if you love building, Landmark is a great "game" to play but again it is not in the realm of Xsyon/Wurm.

They called Ultima Online a "sandbox" MMO also, but one thing I would like to note is that they do not play the same as Xsyon and Wurm online. Xsyon and Wurm are very closely linked to the style of play, they both have many of the same features and aspects that make them a true sandbox game to me.
Roma Victor even though it didn't have terraforming was like Xsyon and Wurm in the style of play/sandbox however, they shut down the servers due to a many issues.

[Eyesgood]

Well, I am seriously enjoying reading this thread. I am in Landmark as a founder and also ArcheAge as a founder. Landmark is pretty much a sandbox with emphasis on the sand. However, it is purely a design studio at this point. There is no other feature that can even be flagged as sandbox mmo. I am a little ticked at Sony's marketing early on as they implied Landmark would be an alpha of EQ Next. But then they switched gears and stated they were two totally different games - after I plunked down the money for early access. But oh well - it's Sony and I should have known.

ArcheAge doesn't feel like a sandbox. It feels more like a sand-park with more emphasis on the theme-part than the sandbox. For one thing, you can build a house and own land but you have to squeeze in between everyone else in crowded player housing areas. I think its more correct to say that ArcheAge is one of the most open-ended, non-linear themepark games out there. It's definitely NOT in the same sandbox definition that Wurm and Xsyon are.

As for the other games, I have my eye on every game mentioned in this thread. Of them all, I think the most appealing is The Repopulation for the simple fact that they are really trying to give the open-world feel of SWG - which is the greatest sandbox of all time imho.

Cheers.

[MrDDT]

Xsyon was in 'early access' / 'prelude' until 2011 when it 'officially released'.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/15/xsyon-celebrates-its-first-year-of-prelude/

If we're going to say these games are not even close to being out, then Xsyon is fresh out of the gates.

How are the games mentioned not like Xsyon and Wurm? They may not have the exact same feature set, but they are in the same realm of MMO 'sandbox'. Let's add to that list:
Perpetuum
EVE Online
A Tale in the Desert
Haven and Hearth
Salem


What are these "features and aspects that make them a true sandbox [MMORPG] game"? It sounds like a terraforming system of any quality is all you need. It's not like terraforming is truly tied to the gameplay in any meaningful way, so what's the big deal if you get an awesome terraforming experience in one game and the rest of the features in another?

My point is that Xsyon and Wurm do a few of these sandbox features poorly. In other games, the feature set may be missing some from Xsyon/Wurm, they may have added some, but overall they do them better.

Sorry about the 2010, date being wrong, I forgot he delayed it a year, but it has been released for years even as your link shows.


All those games are sandbox games, I've tried them all and I do not like them for different reasons. The point was people were saying Sandboxs game were in high times right now with many games, but really I've not found games that work as well as a sandbox as Xsyon or Wurm online.

EVE Online and Perpetuum are both Sci Fi games. EvE is much more a sandbox than Perptuum is also. I do not play EVE online due to the Sci Fi aspect and it has a lot less "world building" things. Sure you can do POS and other things of that nature but nothing like a Wurm / Xsyon aspect is.

A Tale In The Desert is very old, and it's very much a sandbox game. I love a lot of systems in it, few things about ATITD though, ZERO combat None, NIL, NADA! No PVP, No PVE etc. So that hurts it for many people. Next is that they wipe the game about every 6 months to restart it, the game progresses at a rate and then starts over again. Not something I'm into. I like a game to build on itself and players to effect the world and have lasting results.

Haven and Hearth is a shooter game and does poorly at it, it has a lot of issues that I wont get into here, please it's a Sci Fi game. A lot less sandbox style game than Xsyon and Wurm.

Salem is more like an RTS than a true sandbox MMO, it plays that way to me, I would say it is a true sandbox game. Top down view and how you click on things/do things. Graphics are very very dated it looks like farmville. Let me note as a final major nail in the coffin, PERMADEATH! If you die, you do not come back you lose all your skills and stats and have to remake. PVP or PVE deaths. Right there alone if I knew nothing else of the game is a no go for me.

So there you have it. I do not see sandbox games like Xsyon or Wurm on the market now or in the near future. I've played both Xsyon and Wurm online a lot, 1000s of hours on either. I play Xsyon and believe Xsyon has more hope for it out of the 2. I hope that Xsyon puts in some of the content and features soon that he has planned and releases it on steam after the content and a few fixes.

[booszilla]

Do they not still plan on using player made peices from Landmark in EQ next? I thought it was essentially crowd-sourcing world design? Yes they still plan to use player made pieces in Next. I had Pre-purchased Landmark before it was in alpha state and i always knew it was gonna be a separate game. Sony has been in a lot of hot water because a lot of people were confused with the the original name, EQ Next Landmark and a lot of people bought it thinking it was the same game, so they decided to take the Next out of the name.

[MrDDT]

Pound you are right about Heaven and Hearth, I was thinking Fallen Earth, people say that Fallen Earth is a sandbox game and I don't really see it.
I've never played Heaven and Hearth, so I can't say but if the graphics are like Salems, its well dated and worse off.

What I like about Xsyon is the movement systems and view. How the effect/building you have on the world, like terraforming and building.
Crafting system at it's core is great in Xsyon, problem I see is that the usefulness of top end gear has no purpose. New players can craft highly effective items that top tier crafting only gives a slight effect over, with no need for end game crafted items.
I expect that if he were to do some minor changes to economy and make top end crafting effective, the game would do really well once released on steam. That is where I see hope for this game is fixing some of these minor things because the core of the game is very solid. Crafting system and the bonus/effects at it's core are done very well just currently not balanced. Building system in Xsyon is top tier and I would place it in the top 5 all time of building for sandbox MMOs.

It has the fantasy style I like, later we can expect to see some magic in Xsyon also.

Combat in Xsyon is broken and would need a lot of work, however, still some of the basic core ideas and systems are advanced. Like the targeting system and how energy and charged attacks work. Putting in some special skills, fixing some of the lag, a healing system etc would do wonders for combat, but on top of that need to fix up some of the NPC's combat AI. Which I think he will find is a large project. Which is why I was surprised they took out PVP. PVP which is a good "content" combat system was removed from Xsyon, when I know AI is much harder to put into place.
Many of the core systems in Xsyon are very solid and would be working with just a few tweaks and minor changes, code that I know is already done by him or would he easy and not a lot of time to do. Like a healing system to regen HP from eating food. I know the code is already there to do it, he just needs to put in a potion system to go with it.

Lack of ranged weapons in Xsyon is a major issue I have with the game, but due to the poor AI and how large of a task that is, I can understand why he is putting it off.

Why do I think it would ever release on Steam? Because it's already Greenlit, which means Xsyon himself is the only thing not releasing it on Steam. I expect once he feels the game is working well enough and would hold the attention of people that would flood in from Steam for him to release it on Steam.

If it were me, I would release it on Steam after putting in Cooking/Farming doing some minor quests for the tutorial, working on training up some guides and putting in more of a survival feel to the game. Like if your hunger goes to 0, you die, and harder areas in the game that take team work killing mutants and zombies, along with more threats to players like roaming bands of zombies that attack towns and players.
Then while they are doing that, work on economy, by fixing the usefulness of crafted top tier items, and giving areas in the map better/more resources that require end game crafted items with skilled players (like hunters/gathers).

Doing these minor changes listed here at the end could take Xsyon from a blah game to a true "game". Right now I feel there is little game to be had here mostly just a building simulator with many aspects that are allllllllmost a game.

[booszilla]

@MrDDT, The Sandbox game world development is booming right now. Instead of one or two indi-titles coming out, there are 4 this year alone that I have been tracking not including those made by mods of existing games and turned into persistent online worlds.
-The Repopulation
-Life is Feudal
-Gloria Victis
-Arch Age

Those are just a few, there are about a half dozen if not more others that I don't remember the name to.I agree with this. These games are not as building focused as Wurm or Xsyon, but some of these sanboxes are just great.

I have an account with ArcheAge and love it. ArcheAge has been released in a few countries for a few years now. The Americas and I think Europe are the ones just getting alpha and beta, which are already finished. They are just fine tuning them for a different audience. The Korean market is different than the West, so they are making changes for that reason.

I have never played The Repopulation, but im temped to join their kickstarter. I hear its gonna be the closest thing to StarWars Galaxy and I thought SWG was the best Sandbox sense Ultima Online, IMO

[MrDDT]

I agree with this. These games are not as building focused as Wurm or Xsyon, but some of these sanboxes are just great.

I have an account with ArcheAge and love it. ArcheAge has been released in a few countries for a few years now. The Americas and I think Europe are the ones just getting alpha and beta, which are already finished. They are just fine tuning them for a different audience. The Korean market is different than the West, so they are making changes for that reason.

I have never played The Repopulation, but im temped to join their kickstarter. I hear its gonna be the closest thing to StarWars Galaxy and I thought SWG was the best Sandbox sense Ultima Online, IMO

Archeage is a great game, but it's not even in the same league as Xsyon, EvE, or Wurm when it comes to sandbox.

If you like themepark games, but still want a good deal of sand in them, Archeage is a perfect game. If you want a sandbox game, and little themepark, Archeage is not a game for you.
When I think themepark, I think of scripted building areas AKA plots or prefab buildings, I think dungeons that are scripted with boss mobs, I think chars that are locked into skills they can use and armor they can wear. Granted Archeage has some aspects of a sandbox like it tries to put in as much sand as it can, but in some areas they fall back to theme park.

I do like a lot of the things they did in Archeage, but it just falls short for me. I do have an Alpha account and played it quiet a bit. One of the biggest problems I have is that you are limited in how much you can craft per day. Which to me breaks the game a lot for me. I will be playing it on release though.

[booszilla]

I agree with this. These games are not as building focused as Wurm or Xsyon, but some of these sanboxes are just great.

I have an account with ArcheAge and love it. ArcheAge has been released in a few countries for a few years now. The Americas and I think Europe are the ones just getting alpha and beta, which are already finished. They are just fine tuning them for a different audience. The Korean market is different than the West, so they are making changes for that reason.

I have never played The Repopulation, but im temped to join their kickstarter. I hear its gonna be the closest thing to StarWars Galaxy and I thought SWG was the best Sandbox sense Ultima Online, IMO
I agree the labor sucks major and yea it is more of a sandpark game. I had to get use to it for those reasons hehe. I use to play EvE for a few years also. I had no idea they introduced a building aspect to the game.

[MrDDT]

Great post Poundcake, I think we agree on most things and I like your top 5.

I do not agree with the inventory system at all though, I think the unlimited inventory system and the way it's done in Xsyon is great. I believe the biggest issue I have here is the lack of moving many items at once, and the way items can't be broken down to allow better stacking. Other than that, inventory is great. I would like to see other containers like chests, barges, and cabinets. The woodcraft skill would do wonders here (barges would go in wainwright of course).

All in all, there are many things to be done with Xsyon and I still see hope.

[Hodo]

MrDDT, I was like you once, I clung to one game with a great deal of hope, but that game died. I still think it was one of the best sandbox games outside of SWG ever, and that was Roma Victor. It like Xsyon was built on horrible code, and was developed by a group of people with less money then a third world begger. They eventually gave up on the game, even though it would have probably florished under player development as an Emulator. But saddly that did not happen.

I had high hopes for Mortal Online and Xsyon, but they both turned out... well to be nice, poorly. I am no quite jaded on the gaming world and it is real rare I even put money into a game anymore. I just wait, watch youtube videos of it, read the forums and look for things I know I would dislike. Unfortunatly Xsyon has more flaws and problems then they will overcome anytime soon, and I doubt they will EVER overcome them. Fact is Jordi is underfunded, understaffed, and underskilled to complete this massive task of this game. And it will most likely end up like Roma Victor and a few others, and dieing quitely with a few die hards still hanging around the forums praying for a miracle to save the game or trying to come up with a plan to keep the game alive.

Not saying you should jump ship now, no far from it if you enjoy it hang on to it for as long as you can. But don't be shocked when Jordi makes a post about how he can't sustain this project anymore and will be shutting down the servers on X date. Or he vanishes for months on end with no response, no updates, no bug fixes or even so much as a login on the forums.

I have seen it before, and it will happen again.

[MrDDT]

Hodo, haha you should know I played RV also. This game has better chance than RV IMO.

If he were to shut down before even trying to release it on Steam, I would think that would be a major mistake. At the very least I would throw it out on Steam as is and see how it does, but with just a few minor issues I think this game could be Steam ready enough to get some new life and get back on project. I stated those changes already.

Having hope doesnt mean I'm betting on it to be the best game ever, it just means out of the sandbox games out there and up in coming I believe Xsyon still has the best chance to be the game I want to play.

I do not believe it would take a "miracle" to save Xsyon, unlike RV that game was poorly coded in so many ways it was bound to fail. Xsyon has a solid core, with a few minor shortcomings that if were worked on could be fix/put into place and released on a hugely popular form of distribution known as Steam.

I have no reason to jump ship, I'm waiting around for content just like most people. I've done everything, and have all the skills that there is no more progression for me. So I'm just biding time and fooling about until something new comes out in Xsyon to play with, with new people.

[Anon386]

I've played both. Have been in wurm for at least 6+ years. I recently tried out Xsyon when it started a PvE server.

Wurm has more freedom to change land. You can dig and build off deed, change rock, tunnel into rock making caves. In general Wurm gives you far more freedom to change the lands.

Wurm has a better economy !BUT! the only reason it does is because you can use game currency to pay for subscriptions costs and other game related costs. You can even sell it for real life cash. An end game goal many people strive for is to get good enough craft/priest skills that you can sell goods and pay for free.
Wurm doesn't care about or try stop players from selling game currency. Although, only a handful of players are able to actually do this frequently. I'm not sure how to explain it well but I feel that this currency selling is actually detrimental to the masses.
Xsyon's economy troubles are pretty much the same in Wurm. Players can easily make and gather all things they need removing the need to trade. The rate at which one achieves self sufficiency is the main reason to trade. Both games don't give players a lot of tools to deal with different play times between players. Transporting goods is difficult. Wurm has better transport but that is only because Xsyon is missing draft animals to pull carts.

Wurm is full of fanboys. Although, I don't agree the game is unfair on the forums. I've posted a lot on Wurm forums. My name is different there. They don't penalize you or delete your post unless you attack, insult, or defame the game, its developer or sometimes other players. I have often told Wurm or its developers that they are wrong and are making a mistake. Never have I gotten in trouble.

Xsyon is less grindy. Both games rely on the idea of doing some task over and over, repeat 1000's of times. Wurm uses a diminishing returns curve for skill progression. The effort to go from 98 to 100 might take as much or more time as it took to get to 98. Thankfully the actual difference between 98 and 100 is very small. Even 95 and 100 are not significantly different. 100 is mostly just a title for epeen players.

Wurm refuses to explain some important mechanics questions to the players. The Wurm model seems very complicated: crafting skills, specific tool use skill, tool qualities, toon characteristics, difficulty of the raw material your working with, difficulty of the final product your crafting, and a boat load of randomness thrown in for good measure.
Xyone doesn't explain things either but I have consistently gotten better answers on how things work in Xsyon. I'm guessing why Xyon gives better answers is tied to its slow progression and smaller development staff. In Wurm asking how something works often results in an hour or two long discussion amongst players. It also doesn't help that its rumored Wurm developers frequently make changes to mechanics and don't saying anything.

Wurm has a better wiki. Like Xsyon its player made so both can have errors sometimes.

The graphics and customization are better in Xsyon. For example, all character of the same kingdom wear the same cloths in Wurm. Armor does change the look of your toon. One exception is, as I stated already, in wurm its far easier and you have far more freedom to alter land anywhere.

Wurm has a wider breadth of crafting diversity. Xsyon has more depth for a given craft. For example, Wurm's main tool making skill, blacksmithing, has considerably less options then Xsyon's tool craft.
For Wurm its almost as if the game was created with a wide breadth of crafting branches but a lot of them have never been improved upon: toy making, dairy food making, beverages.

No commit on the combat part. Well, I actually like wurm's "stand there and wait for the opponent to die".

Finally, if I new to both, new what I know now, and where choosing between Wurm and Xsyon. well I choose Xsyon and mostly because of the cost to play. If you don't have good skills and lots of free time Wurm can be very expensive. I still play Wurm more than Xsyon. Mostly this is because I want to achieve some things and it takes a lot of time to do.

[azzymor]

Anon386 and PoundCake42 (excellent posts btw) both gives examples of features that would be nice to see in the game and would increase the immersion. But, .. (I'm guessing wildly now), I think the engine the game runs on (hopefully there is one) is pretty non-modular, inflexible and outdated that most of the suggested features would be close to impossible to implement.

Examples of things that would be nice to do/see


Build tunnels
Build anywhere I want. How come I don't know how a shovel works just because I'm outside of a tribe?
A correct fluid system (not a surface as it is today)
Build bottom->up instead of the opposite.
Be able to rotate/tilt buildings/plans by any degrees.
To be able to scale plans before they are built (not just stretch the bitmap, like it is for trees as they grow).
A ballistic system (bows, spears and anything else that can be hurled)
Birds, where are those?


These are just the technical aspectes of the game. My biggest grief though is about the reasons to play the game. There really is no need to build at all, no need for cloth/armor, no need for food/water. You can sit on a rock and craft all day long for no reason at all. That is my major concern.

[unclean666]

While I will not argue that they can use some improvement but armor does have its uses Def and Stats with half the stats having action based effects like run faster do more dmg ect.Food and water also has a need for hp and energy regen and lose.

[chaosegg]

As old as Xsyon or Wurm are, they are still the only games in town when you want to be in a true sandbox.
"True sandbox"? Is this fanboi zeal or a joke?
Sorry in advance if this is a bit troll-flame-tastic, but I guess I'm just a "bittervet".

[chaosegg]

Is there a 'third option' in this either-or?


There really is no need to build at all, no need for cloth/armor, no need for food/water. You can sit on a rock and craft all day long for no reason at all. That is my major concern.

Both Wurm and Xsyon sound like garbage to me, just from reading these posts.
Though I've not actually played Wurm, I loved what Xsyon has to offer... till what azzymor said above hit home for me, and I moved on to spend my time somewhere else.

[MrDDT]

"True sandbox"? Is this fanboi zeal or a joke?
Sorry in advance if this is a bit troll-flame-tastic, but I guess I'm just a "bittervet".

If you followed the topic, you can see why I believe this.
Also with the new cooking update you can see just how much sand is in the box. Millions of different combos for recipes on cooking, and the feel you get makes it feel closer to being a "cook" rather than click button craft.

[MrDDT]

The presence of those crafting mechanics is neat (though I cast huge doubt on how polished they will be and whether they actually live up to his words), but they will ultimately be worthless since there is no need for their output.
Who cares if you can make a million different kinds of recipes when the game doesn't call for it? There's no evolving PvP game that would drive people to experiment with consumables. There's no need for min-maxing when you're just slapping dumb AI.

I'm curious to see what this patch look like in something other than text.

It's on test server right now. I like it a lot, still needs a few bugs worked out and likely some timers fixed but I like it a lot.

I agree with your thought process though, but this is a good step in the right direction. I hope with cooking he will rework the survival aspect of the game a bit more.