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gregulate
05-07-2010, 11:58 PM
I hate farmers/bots. I have never liked how they have polluted games I have played in the past and would like to know if there are tools in place to help prevent them from ruining the environment. I don't need to know what the tools are as we don't want the potential farmers to learn how to work around them but just knowing that it has been considered would be nice.

It appears that many aspects of this gameworld will naturally hinder them more than most games but what can we as a community do to help keep them out.

There always seems to be some people that want to buy their way to success and ruin games for the honest people.

Veldern
05-08-2010, 12:04 AM
Well, there's always the PVP approach :P

Beyond that, having someone keep an unofficial list somewhere with all of the names of suspected people.

gregulate
05-08-2010, 12:15 AM
This could be damaging to anyone who isn't evil since most farmers won't be evil themselves.

Veldern
05-08-2010, 12:28 AM
Tis why I suggested the second option... player enforced trade embargos.

gregulate
05-08-2010, 12:47 AM
I guess its a start. I sure hope this game doesn't have too many issues with this.

Oakstead
05-08-2010, 03:41 AM
gregulate wrote:

This could be damaging to anyone who isn't evil since most farmers won't be evil themselves.

True but that is why Ancient Embers will be neutral in-game so we can go after things like this.

Even outright evil tribes will make "good" spy/support crafting tribes in-game to further their interests by taking advantage of the good-evil game mechanics. The general members of such a tribe may not even know their real purpose but their high level officers will. One should not underestimate the cunning of the destructive forces.

Twosock
05-08-2010, 05:48 AM
Oakstead wrote:



True but that is why Ancient Embers will be neutral in-game so we can go after things like this.

Even outright evil tribes will make "good" spy/support crafting tribes in-game to further their interests by taking advantage of the good-evil game mechanics. The general members of such a tribe may not even know their real purpose but their high level officers will. One should not underestimate the cunning of the destructive forces.

I could be understanding you wrong here,
Multicharacters?
Isnt it one character slot only once live.
Know we have had 3 to play around with now in preprelude. Thought this was temporary only.
This is per account sadly it doesnt really fix multi accounts.

Jadzia
05-08-2010, 06:47 AM
PvP is a good solution when a bot is caught. But this can be easily avoided if the bot is set to work during out of peak gaming times. Like late morning and afternoon by GMT...at this time USA sleeps, Europe is at work/school, so all the police work is left for the Australians, and I'm afraid we don't have enough of them for that. So ingame mechanics are needed for sure to avoid bots.

Oakstead
05-08-2010, 07:11 AM
meradin wrote:

Oakstead wrote:



True but that is why Ancient Embers will be neutral in-game so we can go after things like this.

Even outright evil tribes will make "good" spy/support crafting tribes in-game to further their interests by taking advantage of the good-evil game mechanics. The general members of such a tribe may not even know their real purpose but their high level officers will. One should not underestimate the cunning of the destructive forces.

I could be understanding you wrong here,
Multicharacters?
Isnt it one character slot only once live.
Know we have had 3 to play around with now in preprelude. Thought this was temporary only.
This is per account sadly it doesnt really fix multi accounts.

Yes as you mentioned, only one character per account once the game launches but hardcore PvPers are well known to run more than one account in games so their main PvP character can be properly supported.

Oakstead
05-08-2010, 07:15 AM
Veldern wrote:

Well, there's always the PVP approach :P

Beyond that, having someone keep an unofficial list somewhere with all of the names of suspected people.

That is why tribes in these sort of games need a good, organized intelligence service.

Iron Maiden
05-08-2010, 08:27 AM
Well i'll just fraps when i go to enemy towns.

If i kill you and you don't move from crafting you might be getting a temp ban :)

Farmerbob
05-08-2010, 10:08 AM
Iron Maiden wrote:

Well i'll just fraps when i go to enemy towns.

If i kill you and you don't move from crafting you might be getting a temp ban :)

Depending on the situation, I might not be moving and fighting you because I am simply destroying anything of value that I might be carrying.

If I think I can take you, or if I think I can escape or if my friends nearby might get there before you can kill and loot me, then I might fight. Otherwise, it's scorched earth policy on my inventory. I'm not going to allow it to be profitable to loot me.

Spitfire5
05-08-2010, 10:13 AM
Well in DF you couldn't do that, hopefully in this game you wouldn't be able to pull such bullshit tactics either.

Farmerbob
05-08-2010, 10:35 AM
Spitfire5 wrote:

Well in DF you couldn't do that, hopefully in this game you wouldn't be able to pull such bullshit tactics either.

Bullshit tactics?

Lol, I'll fight if I think I have a chance, if I don't, I'm not going to reward someone for an easy kill.

If you want something from me as loot, it won't happen from a gank unless you can gank me so fast I can't destroy valuables.

If we cannot destroy what we carry, I'll run off a cliff (if possible) and drop stuff as I go, scattering my gear in the hopes that you might not be able to find it, or someone else might find it and take it before the gankers can. If it looks like the gankers are more interested in my loot than killing me, I might use this to lead them to a trap.

gregulate
05-08-2010, 10:36 AM
The biggest deterrent is honest players imo. If nobody is buying goods/money/power leveling from them it eliminates a majority of the problem. I like to believe that the early community will be clean.

Iron Maiden
05-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Farmerbob wrote:

Spitfire5 wrote:

Well in DF you couldn't do that, hopefully in this game you wouldn't be able to pull such bullshit tactics either.

Bullshit tactics?

Lol, I'll fight if I think I have a chance, if I don't, I'm not going to reward someone for an easy kill.

If you want something from me as loot, it won't happen from a gank unless you can gank me so fast I can't destroy valuables.

If we cannot destroy what we carry, I'll run off a cliff (if possible) and drop stuff as I go, scattering my gear in the hopes that you might not be able to find it, or someone else might find it and take it before the gankers can. If it looks like the gankers are more interested in my loot than killing me, I might use this to lead them to a trap.


Sigh.

Shrimps
05-08-2010, 10:52 AM
Few things to say.

Rescources are depleteble which puts a huge dampner on Bots.

I believe it's been stated multiple times that you are NOT fully lootable unless you are an "Evil" character.

As for BAC, you consistently troll on the forums, I don't expect you'll do well in game as many clans that start out pre-release trolling attempting to be griefers usually result in being griefed by people you piss off on the forums. And as it would seem that your tribe plans to be evil, griefing you will be much easier than you griefing anyone else.

I suppose my point is that a little maturity would go a long way.

gregulate
05-08-2010, 11:15 AM
Hey BAC,

If you guys kill me you can take all my loot but you have to kill me first. I am not a fan of destroying my stuff so you can't get it. I am a bigger fan of I just killed you when you got the jump on me.

Shrimps,

BAC is clearly an evil pvp tribe. Even though they respond with that immature asshole attitude, it fits them perfectly in an RP sense. I don't RP but there needs to be bad guys in a game. Don't you want to hate the bad guys? They really just want competition that is going to fight back from what I see. I bet if you met these people in real life you could get along with them(for the most part). I don't know them but I am glad they are in the game to create that conflict.

Off topic but wanted to respond.

Birdmon
05-08-2010, 11:21 AM
Farmerbob wrote:

Spitfire5 wrote:

Well in DF you couldn't do that, hopefully in this game you wouldn't be able to pull such bullshit tactics either.

Bullshit tactics?

Lol, I'll fight if I think I have a chance, if I don't, I'm not going to reward someone for an easy kill.

If you want something from me as loot, it won't happen from a gank unless you can gank me so fast I can't destroy valuables.

If we cannot destroy what we carry, I'll run off a cliff (if possible) and drop stuff as I go, scattering my gear in the hopes that you might not be able to find it, or someone else might find it and take it before the gankers can. If it looks like the gankers are more interested in my loot than killing me, I might use this to lead them to a trap.

I like your style! Crafter/Harvest will adapt.

Iron Maiden
05-08-2010, 11:31 AM
How about we get back on topic, instead of bashing the "trolls".


PvE tribes will Bot~

/thread

Jadzia
05-08-2010, 03:07 PM
Shrimps wrote:


I believe it's been stated multiple times that you are NOT fully lootable unless you are an "Evil" character.

This is a misunderstanding. There is full loot in Xsyon, and it doesn't depend on the victim's reputation.

Xsyon wrote:

Death results in some stat and skill loss and allows the victor to fully loot the player. This is not without complications and consequences for the victor.
Here is the whole thread:
http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232

On topic:
I'd be glad to see some other ideas against bots than PvP, since it can't be effective with a low population. I've played a game which had like 1000 players ( similar to the starting population of Xsyon) and usually when I played there were like 2-3 players online. With such a small amount of players in a world without fast traveling its impossible to catch bots.

Shrimps
05-08-2010, 03:34 PM
Jadzia wrote:

Shrimps wrote:


I believe it's been stated multiple times that you are NOT fully lootable unless you are an "Evil" character.

This is a misunderstanding. There is full loot in Xsyon, and it doesn't depend on the victim's reputation.

Xsyon wrote:

Death results in some stat and skill loss and allows the victor to fully loot the player. This is not without complications and consequences for the victor.
Here is the whole thread:
http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232

On topic:
I'd be glad to see some other ideas against bots than PvP, since it can't be effective with a low population. I've played a game which had like 1000 players ( similar to the starting population of Xsyon) and usually when I played there were like 2-3 players online. With such a small amount of players in a world without fast traveling its impossible to catch bots.


The PVP death and looting mechanics must've changed since I last read then, as when I last saw, you could only fully loot evil players and players you are at war with, also evil players took a large skill loss when killed, I suppose this is no longer the case.


It is a bit disheartening that there is no real consequence listed other than "It will have severe consequences".

My only guess is that you will have too much loot and can't organize it all?

Really hoping it doesn't end up like DF gankfest, it sounda alot like it atm.


As for botting I doubt it'll be a big deal.

Depletable rescources, limited carrying capacity both do alot to work against it, not to mention it seems like gathering takes a bit more than just clicking a node from the videos.

kiwibird
05-08-2010, 03:43 PM
Destroying items doesn't work in game as there is no way to actually destroy them except maybe through wear and tear.

JCatano
05-08-2010, 03:48 PM
One thing that needs to be made clear is that having an extra account doesn't automatically mean someone is "botting". A bot needs a script for automation.

After I get into the game and see how it works, I may buy a second account to farm for me (manually). Not sure, yet. It's not cheating as some people like to say. It's simply a separate character. It doesn't make any difference if it's run by a player with a "main" or controlled by someone who has it as their only character.

Jadzia
05-08-2010, 04:04 PM
Shrimps wrote:

Jadzia wrote:


Here is the whole thread:
http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232
The PVP death and looting mechanics must've changed since I last read then, as when I last saw, you could only fully loot evil players and players you are at war with, also evil players took a large skill loss when killed, I suppose this is no longer the case.

It is a bit disheartening that there is no real consequence listed other than "It will have severe consequences".

My only guess is that you will have too much loot and can't organize it all?

Really hoping it doesn't end up like DF gankfest, it sounda alot like it atm.

As for botting I doubt it'll be a big deal.

Depletable rescources, limited carrying capacity both do alot to work against it, not to mention it seems like gathering takes a bit more than just clicking a node from the videos.

I don't know if you clicked on the link in my post, but the original post was written by Xsyon 2 months and 1 week ago, and it hasn't change since then. So its the original mechanic, I've never seen anything else. And the stat and skill loss is mentioned, there are other consequences too, so don't worry :)

I've seen bots gathering depletable rescources with limited carrying capacity, they ran to bank when they was full, and searched for new resource hub when one was empty...its really hard to stop them, I do hope though that the devs have some great new ideas !

Shirk
05-08-2010, 04:17 PM
Jadzia wrote:

so all the police work is left for the Australians, and I'm afraid we don't have enough of them for that.

Just get Sabina to put on her miniskirt and recruit. :laugh:

kiwibird
05-08-2010, 04:18 PM
JCatano wrote:

One thing that needs to be made clear is that having an extra account doesn't automatically mean someone is "botting".
And to make it extra clear, that extra account requires a second subscription and a different email.

JCatano
05-08-2010, 04:25 PM
kiwibird wrote:

JCatano wrote:

One thing that needs to be made clear is that having an extra account doesn't automatically mean someone is "botting".
And to make it extra clear, that extra account requires a second subscription and a different email.

And likely another purchase of the client, too. I don't think I've played an MMO that didn't require it.

Virtus
05-08-2010, 10:12 PM
however, it will prob be the same IP unless they are spoofing

Akasha
05-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Farmerbob wrote:

Iron Maiden wrote:

Well i'll just fraps when i go to enemy towns.

If i kill you and you don't move from crafting you might be getting a temp ban :)

Depending on the situation, I might not be moving and fighting you because I am simply destroying anything of value that I might be carrying.

If I think I can take you, or if I think I can escape or if my friends nearby might get there before you can kill and loot me, then I might fight. Otherwise, it's scorched earth policy on my inventory. I'm not going to allow it to be profitable to loot me.


Devs need to address this right now then... like in darkfall... if u delete something ... and die within 5 minutes its still on your corpse.

Your deleting stuff is unrealistic, punk, and near exploiting.

Please make sure this isnt an issue

Greawulfe
05-09-2010, 08:34 PM
JCatano wrote:

One thing that needs to be made clear is that having an extra account doesn't automatically mean someone is "botting". A bot needs a script for automation.

After I get into the game and see how it works, I may buy a second account to farm for me (manually). Not sure, yet. It's not cheating as some people like to say. It's simply a separate character. It doesn't make any difference if it's run by a player with a "main" or controlled by someone who has it as their only character.

You can count on me having multiple accounts. That's just the way I roll. If I want to buy 3 accounts, have three screens and 3 G-15's on my desk, then I will. Depletable resources, limited pack space and open PvP/full loot means I better be on my game multi-tasking or you will have an easy target. In my opinion there is a big difference between botting and the applications I plan on. If all goes right I may have one toon gathering, a combat toon as a lookout and a runner going back and forth with product. Or I may have 3 toons gathering. But if I step away from the keyboards, I deserve to get raped.

Veldern
05-09-2010, 09:23 PM
This brings the question... are multiple accounts allowed?

JCatano
05-09-2010, 10:00 PM
Veldern wrote:

This brings the question... are multiple accounts allowed?

Is Bill Gates wealthy?

Why wouldn't you be able to, especially when you consider that 2 or more people in the same household may play on the same CC...?

Veldern
05-09-2010, 10:04 PM
JCatano wrote:

Is Bill Gates wealthy?

Why wouldn't you be able to, especially when you consider that 2 or more people in the same household may play on the same CC...? There's a reason why you're only going to be allowed one character per account once the game actually starts, so it begs to be asked.

kiwibird
05-09-2010, 10:07 PM
Veldern wrote:

This brings the question... are multiple accounts allowed?
?(????•?)? KiwiBird: Hey Jooky will a player be allowed multiple accounts? For example, will Player A be allowed to buy three accounts (different email accounts, different names, but same IP) and use all three at the same time?

Jooky: on 3 computers, yeah.

Veldern
05-09-2010, 10:14 PM
Thank you Kiwi, helpful as always.

necoo
05-09-2010, 10:23 PM
i for one will kill anyone i even suspect to be a bot.... if only to get their stuff... but it is the act that counts.

JCatano
05-09-2010, 10:34 PM
Veldern wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Is Bill Gates wealthy?

Why wouldn't you be able to, especially when you consider that 2 or more people in the same household may play on the same CC...? There's a reason why you're only going to be allowed one character per account once the game actually starts, so it begs to be asked.

A separate account is a separate character no matter who controls them. There won't be an issue.

kiwibird
05-09-2010, 10:40 PM
This is part problem...
I can only guess that people will be semi-AFK, and have sound alerts. The problem comes if sounds are used for combat, they will then of course be able to take control and win/lose depending on the account.

Players DO HELP this problem, how its combated by staff is more important however.

Khenke
05-10-2010, 05:22 AM
I hate bots. Just to state it.

But having multiple accounts is not wrong, I wont do it but if people want to pay that extra amount of money each month just to avoid playing with other people, fine by me.

There is one way with almost 100% effective way of getting rid of bots. Ready?

Ok. You have seen it many many times. Captchas. Ok, I admit I hate captchas but not as much as I hate bots. Now it don't have to be a giant splash over the screen once every minute but when a repetitive motion is detected it would be ok. Or make it so that you have to write that captcha when you gather, but that would only work if it takes >10 sec to gather and resources are scattered (that is I'm not clicking on a resource every 5 sec like in many MMORPGs) so I don't have to write text all the time. I only play with a mouse and my G13 (just mapping keys not macros) so writing often is not fun.

Farmers are a different subject. On one hand I don't care if people cheat by buying gold or material for real currency. But for the love of god stop gold sellers from spamming me. I don't think Xsyon will be a game that will get a lot of attention from gold sellers thou.

I really hope that it is made so that we don't have to see a bot in the game. And please be hard on boting and cheating, no temporary bans, just permanent ban instant!

Kookie
05-10-2010, 08:16 AM
Khenke wrote:

I hate bots. Just to state it.

But having multiple accounts is not wrong, I wont do it but if people want to pay that extra amount of money each month just to avoid playing with other people, fine by me.

There is one way with almost 100% effective way of getting rid of bots. Ready?

Ok. You have seen it many many times. Captchas. Ok, I admit I hate captchas but not as much as I hate bots. Now it don't have to be a giant splash over the screen once every minute but when a repetitive motion is detected it would be ok. Or make it so that you have to write that captcha when you gather, but that would only work if it takes >10 sec to gather and resources are scattered (that is I'm not clicking on a resource every 5 sec like in many MMORPGs) so I don't have to write text all the time. I only play with a mouse and my G13 (just mapping keys not macros) so writing often is not fun.

Farmers are a different subject. On one hand I don't care if people cheat by buying gold or material for real currency. But for the love of god stop gold sellers from spamming me. I don't think Xsyon will be a game that will get a lot of attention from gold sellers thou.

I really hope that it is made so that we don't have to see a bot in the game. And please be hard on boting and cheating, no temporary bans, just permanent ban instant!

So what if i start on a tree and decide to goto toilet, grab a drink and some food , maybe look at tele for a little while... will I be flagged as bot then? Won't work imo.

Khenke
05-10-2010, 09:07 AM
So what if i start on a tree and decide to goto toilet, grab a drink and some food , maybe look at tele for a little while... will I be flagged as bot then? Won't work imo.

Depends if your character continue to play by it self when you are afk... Then yes you are a bot...
And no it should not flag you as a bot, it should stop you from gathering/killing if you don't answer a captcha, it should ofc let you finish what you started before leaving.
But if you cant answer an captcha once every 5 min you are obviously not playing. And sure you can attend your bot every 5 min but it will likely remove all boting.

Jadzia
05-10-2010, 09:07 AM
Kookie wrote:

Khenke wrote:

I hate bots. Just to state it.

But having multiple accounts is not wrong, I wont do it but if people want to pay that extra amount of money each month just to avoid playing with other people, fine by me.

There is one way with almost 100% effective way of getting rid of bots. Ready?

Ok. You have seen it many many times. Captchas. Ok, I admit I hate captchas but not as much as I hate bots. Now it don't have to be a giant splash over the screen once every minute but when a repetitive motion is detected it would be ok. Or make it so that you have to write that captcha when you gather, but that would only work if it takes >10 sec to gather and resources are scattered (that is I'm not clicking on a resource every 5 sec like in many MMORPGs) so I don't have to write text all the time. I only play with a mouse and my G13 (just mapping keys not macros) so writing often is not fun.

Farmers are a different subject. On one hand I don't care if people cheat by buying gold or material for real currency. But for the love of god stop gold sellers from spamming me. I don't think Xsyon will be a game that will get a lot of attention from gold sellers thou.

I really hope that it is made so that we don't have to see a bot in the game. And please be hard on boting and cheating, no temporary bans, just permanent ban instant!

So what if i start on a tree and decide to goto toilet, grab a drink and some food , maybe look at tele for a little while... will I be flagged as bot then? Won't work imo.

Yes, if you want to leave your computer for a longer period than 1-2 mins then you should logout from the game. Leaving your character online unattended is risky anyway, the game has open PvP.

Greawulfe
05-10-2010, 11:08 AM
Yes, if you want to leave your computer for a longer period than 1-2 mins then you should logout from the game. Leaving your character online unattended is risky anyway, the game has open PvP.[/quote]

Yeah right away the PK'ers will establish "trade" routes and troll them daily so if you cant defend yourself, because your toon sux or you arent paying attention, youre better off staying on the porch ....... WOOFWOOF