I can't find knife blade anywere.

[znaiika]

How am I supposed to make knifes if I can't find knife blade? is this another choke point? same as was with old saw blade?

[Pwnuts]

scavenging. not every zone/area drop all items. you maybe search on a junkpile where they wont drop.

[znaiika]

Yesterday I spent half a day crossing multiple zones found non.

[Pwnuts]

not that common. ask on global, ppl will trade you some. i'm sure you found a bunch of valueable items

[Bejaymac]

It depends on where you are and on your luck, I can count on one hand how many of them I've found while scaving, yet others have no problem finding them.

[znaiika]

Ahhh, not again, I guess my best bet is an alt then, when will Xsyon learn not to create chokepoints? when people leave? I guess it is what it is, like I said before, choke points will not create trading, more like necessity to keep stuff for one self, so good luck keeping population at this rate, and you ask why people don't stay?.

[Willowhawk]

I sometimes wonder if time of day and even time of year have an effect on scavenging results. I have never heard this but I have seen patterns where I will get the same group of items for a while then it changes. I say this because I have not scavenged any knife blades in the last couple weeks either.

Anyway if you would like I can put some blades on the trade totem. If interested message me what quality you require and I will set some out for sale.

[Pwnuts]

and you ask why people don't stay?.

couz they prefer games where you get everything in no time. and its a mmo, not a single player. i agree that some items pop up barely, thats a good way to promote the tradign between players. and there are always people who will help you out with some stuff.

[MrDDT]

Ahhh, not again, I guess my best bet is an alt then, when will Xsyon learn not to create chokepoints? when people leave? I guess it is what it is, like I said before, choke points will not create trading, more like necessity to keep stuff for one self, so good luck keeping population at this rate, and you ask why people don't stay?.

Chokepoint?
If you want a blade there are other options than scav. You can also make a "blade" through animal parts.

This is the biggest problem with comments coming from players that don't try to learn the game before giving advise on how to "fix" it.

On top of this, your "alt" will have the same "luck" your current toon will have. The part you are looking for is an uncommon part in game and they are in many zones at least 1/4th of the zones in game. I suggest you either learn to scav better, or learn to trade. It's not very hard to find that part in game.

Chokepoints do create trading. Just FYI.
Xsyon's low population has little to do with "chokepoints" and more to do with many other things. Like a drive to make a knife in the first place.

[znaiika]

If you want your trade to thrive? then base it on quality not quantity.
First, restrict stats to 100, then add rest of stats by using gear, at very high quality you should be able to add 10 points and supreme quality 20 points to gear for maximum results, then allow normal quality of mats to be common but very high and supreme quality mats more rare to find/gather, then you'll have you higher quality gear to be more useful.
And there is no need for choke points at all.
What I meant using an alt is to delete it and get items with low quality, this way I can have enough to level-up my skills on the main char.
And I know about only one knife which dose not require knife blade, are there any more?

[Pwnuts]

most of them doe. not sure if there is a knife which dont require a blade so far.

[MrDDT]

If you want your trade to thrive? then base it on quality not quantity.
First, restrict stats to 100, then add rest of stats by using gear, at very high quality you should be able to add 10 points and supreme quality 20 points to gear for maximum results, then allow normal quality of mats to be common but very high and supreme quality mats more rare to find/gather, then you'll have you higher quality gear to be more useful.
And there is no need for choke points at all.
What I meant using an alt is to delete it and get items with low quality, this way I can have enough to level-up my skills on the main char.
And I know about only one knife which dose not require knife blade, are there any more?

Does there need to be more than 1? But yes there is more than 1 that doesnt require a knife blade.

So let me get this straight.
You want to limit something to make trade thrive? Yet, a "chokepoint" wouldn't make trade thrive? So if we change the word, not the meaning, we get thriving trade? Understood.

QL is already a factor, why can't both be a factor? Both have an effect on trade, and being this is a sandbox game, both would be a factor and option.
Regional resources would do this (Look at EVE online) however, death porting and poor transporting system along with poor reasons to require high end gear is why this doesnt work. Trust me if you had monsters that would tear down your base unless you fought them off, and having top end gear was the only way to do this, people would really want top end gear. Granted that would be an extreme "need" or "drive" system but my point is made.

The exploit of making a new toon, and deleting them for the items should be removed. IMO those items should have a limit of about 5 to 10 uses.

I agree with you about the QL thing, believe low QL mats should require low skill and low level tools and be commonly found. Higher QL should require high level skill and higher level tools, and uncommonly found. Highest QL should require the highest level of skill and highest level of tools, and be rarely found.
But this should work in conjunction with other choke points. Like (but not limited too) harder areas from monsters, harder areas from PVP, and harder areas from environmental obstacles. (Again think EVE online)



most of them doe. not sure if there is a knife which dont require a blade so far.

It uses bear claws not a blade.

[znaiika]

In EVE online you can sell all unwanted stuff to NPC stores which is not how it is in Xsyon, sure give me an NPC shops so I could sell unwanted stuff then I could use money to trade with people for what I need, then I will agree with you, accept leave pvp part to pvp server.

And you can't do anything about new toon, accept drive people away, because of skill system people need another account/s to do everything they need by them selves.

LOL DDT, if Xsyon will listen to you? you would have a game that no one would even play it after a try-out, there are enough mistakes done in the pest to this game that's why it is so empty now, unless Xsyon don't need to sell his game and keep people play for a long time.

[MrDDT]

Why do you need another account because of the skill system?
I'm confused.

Also you act as if not able to do 100% of the things in game with 1 account is a bad thing. Considering most games do this where you need more than 1 account or toon to do 100% of the crafts in game at max level. I would say thats normal.

You can't sell anything to the NPC unless you want to be broke and sell it (not everything will sell to a vendor) for a very very small amount of what its worth.

I agree there are enough mistakes done in the past. Must like splitting the servers for a PVE server. How did that turn out for you?

[znaiika]

About PVE server, first drive people away form the game by implementing bad changes like "skill system, etc." then asking how did it turn out? Thanks to someone who was always said people will be forced to come back and new people would come to play if these changes where implemented, and if you remember when I said that you will loose more people and not gain?
It's time to fix those mistakes you and your crowd demanded, and make Xsyon enjoyable, first by fixing bad skill system then create enjoyable trading system, then fix baskets so new players won't have to worry that someone can destroy their basket for few days, etc, etc,etc....
And Xsyon should stop listening to you DDT with almost all bad decisions, you did have some good decisions, but mostly bad ones.

[MrDDT]

You didnt answer the question about why you need another account because of the skill system?

Also please don't blame me for the PVE server. I was one that said it was a bad idea on how they were doing it, so that is on you. If you look back at your posts it was YOU that said people would come back for a PVE server.
I think its laughable that you think I'm the pro PVE server guy, and trying to say things I would never say.

I would love to see the post where you say that the PVE server will cause more people to leave.

[znaiika]

Here is the link DDT about PVE server in case you forgot http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/9167-PVP-or-No-PVP/page2 PVE server was actually a good decision in fact.
And Xsyon is finally listened to people who've been asking for pve server for a long painful years after decline of population it was finally implemented, if Xsyon listened to people who asked not to change skill system and add PVE server, Xsyon would have a lot of players playing in fact, and not to make bad decisions asked by vocal minority.

[MrDDT]

Here is the link DDT about PVE server in case you forgot http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/9167-PVP-or-No-PVP/page2 PVE server was actually a good decision in fact.
And Xsyon is finally listened to people who've been asking for pve server for a long painful years after decline of population it was finally implemented, if Xsyon listened to people who asked not to change skill system and add PVE server, Xsyon would have a lot of players playing in fact, and not to make bad decisions asked by vocal minority.

Here is a quote from you from there.


If pvp players can't gather-up in one server, then I don't know how to call such community, clearly you can see who can support the game, don't ever call your self a pvper then.
Before server split we had lots of conversations on how to deal with pvp vs pve, one of those conversations was to divide server in to two, mist side pvp and current pve, some people did not want that, if Xsyon decide to do this, both sides have to have same of everything, pvp side should not have extra or better things on pvp side because they think "risk vs reward" this is too old saying, if you really want to join one community, you have to share equal rights.
I still think pve and pvp servers should be separated

Here is my reply.


I think splitting a small player base was one of the worst ideas I could think of in a game period.
It is very clear that splitting the servers did not work in anyway, shape, or form.

Now you can say that I wanted a PVE server is beyond me.
Again you did not answer the question about why you need another account because of the skill system.

[znaiika]

I never say you wanted PVE server, in fact you and some other were against PVE server, I think you confusing your self now DDT.

[MrDDT]

About PVE server, first drive people away form the game by implementing bad changes like "skill system, etc." then asking how did it turn out? Thanks to someone who was always said people will be forced to come back and new people would come to play if these changes where implemented, and if you remember when I said that you will loose more people and not gain?


Odd, sounds to me like you are trying to blame me for the poor turn out on a PVE server saying asking me how it turned out, then saying if I remember that you said we would loose more people than we gained.

Now you are flipping this again?

Again you have yet to answer WHY people need another account. You make these statements and some how we are to believe you for no other reason than you say it? You can't answer why?

[znaiika]

And I always supported the idea of having one PVE server and one PVP server separated so no one have any conflicts.
You're mad because PVPrs can't actually support PVP server without PVEers, no more easy kills?

DDT, you definitely loosing now.

[znaiika]

I remember that you said we would loose more people than we gained.



This was totally a different issue back then it was not about PVE server.
One was about skill system, skill system was a really bad idea.
One was about old saw blade.
One was about decay system, baskets/tribes, decay system can be improved.
Regional resources is not good too.

[MrDDT]

Your statement about PVPers cant support a PVP server without PVE is like saying PVE cant support PVE server without PVPers.

Neither server is supporting itself, thus neither server is right.

Again you have YET to answer the question why you need more than 1 account because of the skill system?

Also will say that the PVE server has few people on it, you blame past PVPers for breaking the game, yet you have your PVE server why isnt it working? Where is everyone?
The answer is that PVE server was not the answer nor was it the problem, just as a PVP server was not the answer nor was it the problem. The problem is many different aspects of the game.

I've always said that the PVP system needed to have checks, part of that is safe areas, and part of that is a punishment system for randomly killing anyone. Which Xsyon was asked long ago (over 5 years now) what he was going to do about that, and he had an idea for an alignment system, which NEVER was put in at all. That is a major cause of the problems with the old server and PVE/PVPers were unhappy about it.

[znaiika]

Again you have YET to answer the question why you need more than 1 account because of the skill system?



I already did but you missed it, sorry I won't repeat myself many times anymore.
And pve actually can support pve without pvp.
All Xsyon need to do is fix those mistakes and don't change rules to harm players.
PVE dose not work because of broken and frustrating systems, which cause a major problem, old players left because they spent years of leveling their skills and one day that was all gone, new players come in they like the game, but when they find out how skill system works they leave, because it is boring and dose not work.

I also told you that you won't have players to trade if you do those changes.

[MrDDT]

I already did but you missed it, sorry I won't repeat myself many times anymore.
And pve actually can support pve without pvp.
All Xsyon need to do is fix those mistakes and don't change rules to harm players.
PVE dose not work because of broken and frustrating systems, which cause a major problem, old players left because they spent years of leveling their skills and one day that was all gone, new players come in they like the game, but when they find out how skill system works they leave, because it is boring and dose not work.

You can say the same for the PVP server, if Xsyon just fixed all those mistakes. PVP doesnt work because of the broken and frustrating systems ..... etc etc

About you answer the question, the forums do not update when you edit a post just FYI so no way for me to see that you edited a post hours ago and after I asked the question.
Also you still didnt answer the question.
If this is your answer

And you can't do anything about new toon, accept drive people away, because of skill system people need another account/s to do everything they need by them selves.

Then you clearly do not understand the skill system in Xsyon, because you CAN do everything by yourself and with 1 toon.

[znaiika]

Let me ask you a question, can you do everything like it was before skill decay?
Because for you even if someone could only do everything at skill level 5 means they can do everything.

[MrDDT]

Yes I can do anything in game with 1 toon.
There is a limit of recipes though, so I would have to unlearn ones to relearn others, but there are so many useless recipes in every craft that I doubt anyone wants every recipe.

[znaiika]

There is a big difference between anything and everything, don't confuse yourself DDT.

[MrDDT]

Um ok.
I can do anything AND everything. With 1 toon/account.

[znaiika]

All skills at 100 all stats at 100 on one character one account?
I am not saying changing skills from one to another.

[MrDDT]

All skills at 100 all stats at 100 on one character one account?
I am not saying changing skills from one to another.

First off, you said skill system not stat system.

Second off, stats do not cap at 100.

I do not have all skills at 100, but almost. I do not want all skills at 100 for a few reasons. Mostly to build exp faster. But I could get all skills to 100. That is not in question, I do not want all skills to 100.

[znaiika]

And I don't agree that some pools have two skills while other pools have too many and unrelated skills.

[MrDDT]

The number of skills in a pool have no effect on how many you can get to 100.

[znaiika]

Then Xsyon should move skills around four skills per pool then I won't have any problem with the system.
And don't make choke points.

[MrDDT]

Then Xsyon should move skills around four skills per pool then I won't have any problem with the system.
And don't make choke points.

You really don't make much sense, you just flipped on you were asking before, and then in the same post you say something that contradicts yourself.

I want to see only 3 skills per pool able to max to 100. I've asked for this, and it was sorta done but poorly. Then it turned out it wasnt limited to anything you could level them all to 100 just took longer.

[znaiika]

Maybe you did not understand me.
Something like action pool has, you have four skills in one pool, not two not ten just four skills in each pool.

I hope Xsyon understand why people don't want play, and change the game to the way it is fun and rewarding, not boring, restricted and frustrating.

[MrDDT]

Maybe you did not understand me.
Something like action pool has, you have four skills in one pool, not two not ten just four skills in each pool.

I hope Xsyon understand why people don't want play, and change the game to the way it is fun and rewarding, not boring, restricted and frustrating.

Can you name some games where this has worked? Where 1 toon can have all crafts at max level?

Second, currently you can have ALL skills at max in Xsyon, so what you are asking for is already in place.

[znaiika]

I guess you don't understand DDT what people actually want, and judging by your understanding you would create game but have no people playing it, and if Xsyon listens to you that's what going to happen, at the current state you have the proof that your way it don't work, people come play for a short time then leave, and you never ask your self why, what a shame, Xsyon could be a good place to call home, only if he listen.
DDT are you the developer of this game?

[romka2x]

..........

[MrDDT]

I guess you don't understand DDT what people actually want, and judging by your understanding you would create game but have no people playing it, and if Xsyon listens to you that's what going to happen, at the current state you have the proof that your way it don't work, people come play for a short time then leave, and you never ask your self why, what a shame, Xsyon could be a good place to call home, only if he listen.
DDT are you the developer of this game?

If I were the dev then my ideas would be put into place, and if you think that this game shows my ideas on how it's a failure then clearly you have not been listening.

You want people to have 1 toon, with all the skills able to be maxed. You say because the game doesnt let you do this that is why people left.
Yet the problem with that is, YOU CAN MAX ALL SKILLS WITH 1 TOON. I'm not sure how to get that through your head.

[dprail]

EVE and Darkfall are two examples of games whose economies work fine with no level restrictions.
You shouldn't need level restrictions in a sandbox MMO to make meaningful economies, it's usually used to make your character feel more unique in games with much larger communities, like WoW and SWG.

How is there this confusion between players that one thinks you can max everything and one doesnt? Is it really practical to max everything? Is the game really enjoyable when limited to only X number of skills?

[GuideXaphan]

http://www.xsyon.com/wiki/index.php/Warped_Branch_Knife

http://www.xsyon.com/wiki/index.php/Bear_Claw_Knife

[MrDDT]

Not only is it practical but it has side benefits also. More skills at 100 = more HP. So it forces PVPers or hunters to have the feeling of the need to max every skill. Which is a major reason not to have this system. It does take a good while to level every skill to 100.

Is the game really enjoyable when limited? Well currently (and always) there is no limit.
Having said that, many games limit your crafting and combat skills to a few choices. I do not think enjoyment is linked to limiting or unlimited skills. I think the link of limited or unlimited skills is how is the game set up? How is the economy, how is the crafting, how is the resource gathering, what type of trade system they have etc.

Personally, I think limiting the # of skills would allow people to either focus and be great at a couple of things, or be a jack of all trades and do what they like just not the best at it. Which is what Xsyon said his system was meant to be like, just it's not like that in game.

[znaiika]

http://www.xsyon.com/wiki/index.php/Warped_Branch_Knife

http://www.xsyon.com/wiki/index.php/Bear_Claw_Knife


Is it possible for Xsyon to change Warped Branch Knife requirements? to remove Mule Antlers and replace it with metal plate or whatever, I don't think newbie can hunt deer at that level to make knife.

[Pwnuts]

there are plenty of of weapons, and you still can trade for knifes. no change neccessairy imo

[MrDDT]

Is it possible for Xsyon to change Warped Branch Knife requirements? to remove Mule Antlers and replace it with metal plate or whatever, I don't think newbie can hunt deer at that level to make knife.

Noobies can make many other types of knives just requires a knife blade. I see no reason to make this change, if they were to change it it would need to be balanced on how hard it is to get knife blades/bear claws else it wouldn't be fair/balanced.
Small plates are a common item and can be found through pulling scrap and sorting OR scavenging, making it extremely easy to get that material.

You have to look at balance and not just making things just super easy.

[romka2x]

..........

[znaiika]

DDT? is this another way to get rid of PVE players? then say " I told you PVE server would not work ". I see you want Xsyon to choke for lack of players, this way you'll succeed for sure.
Have fun ruining this game.

[romka2x]

..........

[MrDDT]

DDT? is this another way to get rid of PVE players? then say " I told you PVE server would not work ". I see you want Xsyon to choke for lack of players, this way you'll succeed for sure.
Have fun ruining this game.

How is it a choke point? You start with a blade.
They are not that hard to make, you can make them scav or hunting, you can also trade for them. Anyone using that many blades is likely hunting anyways.
On top of this you likely can find them in dead tribes because people have extra. I see them on trade totems also for like 50dollars.
I would say "What do you want everything handed to you?" but literally this is HANDED to you at the start of the game!!!

[znaiika]

ddt with your skill system and your ideas you forced people to quit then you looted their tribes, now that you have so much stuff stacked you want to force people to trade with you and those who got stuff from looting tribes as well, guess what, I'd rather stop subscribing then be forced to trade like that.
For Xsyon, if you think that I am wrong just wait when you launch your game on steam, I'll tell you what will happen, people who are new to this game might buy it then after they discover how this game work they will flame you and force you to return their money then you'll be forced to closing down your servers, this is what ddt is hoping for.

[MrDDT]

First off, I don't loot tribes as they have nothing I want. Ask anyone that plays, I don't need to loot tribes and it's not even worth my time.

Second off, why would I hope that Xsyon is forced to close?

Please stop with the name calling, its not nice. We are having a civil discussion here and there is no need to resort to it. If you don't like my ideas that is fine say so. I don't like your ideas and I've said why.

I happen to agree that if nothing is done with Xsyon and left in the current state there will be some that buy and most will buy then leave just like last time.
The major reason is because my ideas are not put into place as I said before, you are upset about not able to have all the skills on 1 toon and you CAN have all the skills on 1 toon. I think this is a bad idea.
There are other major things like lack of a working economy. People do not need dollars, there is no real use for them and they barely leave the game, just a very minor amount through totem for buffs few even know or care about.
Next is the lack of driving forces in the game, things for people to achieve other than building a base that "looks cool" there should be useful things to do and grow stronger and get better.
Another major thing lacking is the lack of encouragement and systems in place to group together and do things. There is no party system, no chat system for groups or anything like that. No systems that make people work better as a group than as a solo player etc etc. MMO's are about people working together for common goals but helping themselves have fun and do things along the way. Xsyon is missing the boat here.

[znaiika]

First off I did not call you names.
Do you really think that you can force me to group in to a big tribe and force me to pull stones all day or fish or pulling grass etc, etc, etc? guess what you can play with your self but I won't be your puppy nor anyone else's, sorry.
I would rather play Xsyon as a single player then be someone else's toy.

[MrDDT]

Why would you have to pull stones or be my puppy?
Why not be a top tier crafter, or high end resource gatherer (Supreme QL items) and sell them for things you want or need? Why must you do everything in the game on your own solo?

Xsyon said long ago that he wanted a system where you could be great at a few things or a jack of all trades. I would like to see that system in place.

[znaiika]

Same go's for crafting, I don't want to stay in one place crafting all day or gather resources all day, I want do what I feel like at the given time without any restrictions, and every day is a different, this is supposed to be a sandbox not your usual MMO with restrictions to class.

[MrDDT]

You are not restricted to a class, and I'm not asking for that. You can do anything you want, just don't expect to be the best at it.
You could even do everything avg and a few things great. With the way I want. I just don't want 1 person to do everything great. Why is that a problem?

[znaiika]

I am too want flexible system but this system is way too long and too boring, plus all these chokes all the time.

[MrDDT]

I'm with you on the boring and long, but wouldn't making it so you can know all the crafts just make it feel that much longer? When you know to have more HP you need all the skills to 100?

Anyways, I think the boring part is due to how the crafting is, not because you would be limited to # of skills.

I want to see group events, raids, zombies attacking, people trading, better trade system etc.

[znaiika]

I would love to see revs have actually a good loot besides armor, and make their permanent home place all junk piles, anyone who want to disturb junk piles would have to deal with revs first, and revs would actually restore junk piles.

[MrDDT]

I would like to see Revs craveable for human bones. But I think allowing them to have "good loot" besides armor would hurt economy in other ways.

[znaiika]

DDT, why that you always think that restricting people to get stuff or succeed is going to help economy? you have a wrong way of see things, I think if you restrict people you will drive them away and thus hurt an economy because you will end-up with few people playing.

[MrDDT]

How is unrestricted skills working right now?
Only thing I see from unrestricted skills is people want to do everything themselves and hording ALL the mats because "someday" they plan on leveling it or they think they "need" it or will use it later.

You need to teach people to work together, that's what makes an MMO great. People playing with other people doing things with other people. If you make a game where everyone wants to play solo, you end up with no one playing your game but a few solo players.
Solo is fun for a bit, but MMO's work because people normally enjoy doing things with others. I'm not saying force people to join a guild of 100 people, but encourage them to play with 5 or 10 people, they end up meeting new friends and talking about Xsyon and life and having fun. Xsyon has encouraged people to play solo. Make your OWN homestead, craft EVERYTHING yourself! See what this does?
Please name a game that is doing well that encourages people to play alone?

You have this misguided belief that everyone wants to play alone. People normally don't play MMO's to play solo. Yet this is what is happening in Xsyon. Ask yourself why? When everyone in the tribe is competing for the same mats, and training ALL the skills because that is the best way to do things, then they can easy make their own tribe and control it and costs nothing to do so? Just think about it, what does that do for the game?
Why would a player want to trade when they can do everything themselves?
Next thing is that everything is pretty easy to get expect for some animal parts and very specialized scav items (like 1.0 FOR buckles or decorations)
Skills are very fast to train really, once you know how to do it and have mats.
So at the end of the day, the only thing anyone really wants is time consuming mats that are needed to grind skills/stats. The rare leather or metal is unlikely to trade for much because if someone is at that level to craft it, they are at that level to get the mats too. Because they don't need to focus on a skill. They do everything, and because anything you have that they want, they would have to give up someone they have that you want because they can do EVERYTHING!

[Pax_Ratlin]

Restrictions are good for the economy, I'm going to point out there's a condition to that which I'll come back to later, it is the very foundation of any economic system .... you have something I want, I have something you want. And those restrictions should be circumventable (and that is TOTALLY a real word) with a great deal of risk and/or effort.

In fact I'd go further and suggest that restrictions are a fundamental part of the post-apocalyptic genre, in most films and books (that aren't one persons/small groups struggling against x,y or zombies) all the major towns and cities are either built around secure(ish) trade or the production of a single rare but vital resource.

Now back to that condition, restrictions are good for a large, robust and vibrant economy, which we don't have at the moment. Given the current population size, trading mechanics and distribution of resources restrictions are, for me anyways, a thing for the future.

As a side note: Can I add my voice to the sandbox's are not "I can do anything" side of the debate please, they are lands where there are endless opportunities obstructed by the virtual realities of the land itself. (And if you figure out what I just meant please send me a message cause I'm dying to know myself ;) )

[znaiika]

If it was unrestricted I wouldn't of start this very thread, you said go scavenge for resources, but how am I going to get resources if resources are restricted to get?
Well, I see no point to pay $15 per month and be restricted to do what I want, end of story.

[MrDDT]

If it was unrestricted I wouldn't of start this very thread, you said go scavenge for resources, but how am I going to get resources if resources are restricted to get?
Well, I see no point to pay $15 per month and be restricted to do what I want, end of story.

It works like this.

You find out a few of the things you like to do in game. Lets just pick 3 but my restrictions would limit you down to about 20 if I had my way.
These 3 wouldn't just be you can ONLY do these 3, but it would be that these 3 would be the ones you can become the best at, no one else could be better.

So say that is fishing, leathercrafting, and forestry.
You get high QL fish, not only that but you get them with ease.
You craft the best leather armor in the game (and leather basic mats)
and you get seeds and twigs etc with ease and max QL.

You now need tools for leather crafting and a fishing pole for fishing. So you trade the toolcraft guy down the road who needs twigs and branches for some tools for your leather crafting and fishing that are top tier QL for your top tier QL twigs and branches/seeds.
But you also get from him basic tools for anything else you might need at a basic QL level, like a skewer for cooking some basic foods.
You do this all around the game. With different people, and tribes.

What does this do? It gives people a purpose and direction, objectives and goals.

See how you are not limited in what you can do? Just how good you can do it. You can skill cook, and build and craft your basic needs, but the high end stuff you will want to work with others and specialize in the things YOU want to do.

[znaiika]

DDT, you wish it would work like that, in reality people would choose best skills to level, and if there is no one to get other stuff, they will create another alt, at the end, you'll end-up with the same problem only in a different way, "this is the reality", and you can't restrict that.

[Pwnuts]

the reality is that ppl do not find knife blades couz they spend to much time in the forum.

[MrDDT]

DDT, you wish it would work like that, in reality people would choose best skills to level, and if there is no one to get other stuff, they will create another alt, at the end, you'll end-up with the same problem only in a different way, "this is the reality", and you can't restrict that.

If there are "best" skills then its a balance issue.
I've played many games, people choose skills they like to do and have fun doing, not just because they are the best money makers or easiest etc.
Some people like to be weapon crafters, or leather workers, or scavengers etc long before they even know how it works.

You can say I'm wrong but you offer no data or proof. I offer you proof that people in Xsyon mostly try to do and want to do everything. This creates a hoarders haven. Which is very bad for the game.

The alt issue is a valid point, only that you will find that people running 2+ accounts will have a hard time keeping them leveled up. Alt's will happen, and it doesnt cause problems for economy.

[dprail]

MrDDT you misunderstood me when I asked how practical it is to max all skills. I meant, how many hours would it take from a fresh brand new player and character?

How is it that a player of 3 years doesn't know that all skills can be maxed?


How is it that a player of 3 years is having such huge trouble finding such a basic item?

He doesn't know how the game works? There MIGHT be an issue with how obtainable knowledge of the game is.

There is no way to know where to get them? This sounds like a massive flaw with the loot system. Is it really just run around sampling junk piles every 10 ft? Garbage picking simulator might actually fly on Steam, given the success of Goat simulator... but you gotta be honest about it.


On the topic of economy, think about supply and demand. Because there is no restrictions on skills, supply is huge. Also, and more importantly, because being self-sufficient is really the only tangible goal in the game, supply is low cost -- so low that it's actually negative cost. If I go out and gather grass for an hour, it's because I'm going to use it. If I needed twigs, I would go out and gather twigs.

I don't go out and gather grass if I needed twigs, because that would be introducing an unnecessary step in the process. I would now have to find a player, barter with them, and transport these goods, JUST to get what I actually want.
I also don't go out and gather grass if I needed twigs, because if I was good enough at gathering grass to make that trade a valuable proposition, I would probably be bored of gathering grass.

This is a very shallow sandbox game. There is not enough depth to say 'Im going to make my mark as the best grass gatherer in the game!'.

Players are going to want to be able to do everything. They want to gather, then probably do some crafting, then probably do some building, then probably do some hunting.*** After that, they're going to want to do all of those things on a higher level: more options, more challenge. They're going to want to compete against other players: gather faster/better, craft faster/better, build faster/better, hunt faster/better. Then if they aren't complete carebears, they're going to want to compete against other players directly and actually PvP.
*** marks where Xsyon's gameplay ends. There's really no second level of complexity or challenge in any of the game systems aside from grinds getting more tedious, items getting more rare (randomly), hunts requiring better gear. There is certainly no reason to compete against each other -- what does it matter that I can gather grass faster than you when gathering grass is the reason we are playing in the first place?

[Gruu]

O.O

My My....

I myself have never seen eye to eye with MrDDT but with all i have read in these posts of this Thread, MrDDT still has the right answers. No it is not his game and Xsyon does not do what he asks for but Xsyon has listened to all of us when it makes changes...No, it is not what we want but it is what Xsyon wants.

Oh sorry to butt in...I am one of the afore mentioned Looters...I have tons of Knife blades in all sizes and shapes. I have 3 Chars in game and ea one only has 1 skill maxed...there was no need to be max or know everything...everything was easy to get. But...guess what...I have alot (maybe not as much as MrDDT) and what did it do for me? Nothing.

Im sorry you are having a hard time finding Blades but finding friends to be with is way harder. There are a few jabs at this but to keep this game going it has to focus on things that keep people together not to be solo. If you had more friends say ina tribe...you prolly would not be having such a hard time finding the blades because they all would have helped. And thus my last interjection into your rant....they never should have split the servers thus more people to interact with.

Have a nice day with your Legos

Gruu

[Pwnuts]

dprail, its way easier now to grind up "all" skills than it was in the time when DDT did. and its not possible to tell how much time it takes but its sill a lot. depends on how much time you spend to the game and for how long you can keep your mood to grind.

you talk about a not well working loot system, so if you need to go to a scrapyard in real couz you.. dunno need a few wheel hub caps for your car, you will find then instandly? are there junkpiles around you which have mainly knifeblades on it? xD

sure you find a lot of metal stuff, plastic, cloth and leather but there are items with a lower droprate. xsyon tried to keep most parts of the game realistic and thats simply why you dont grab every important items in no time.

this thread is not a request for help where or how to get knifeblades, since there was plenty of replys how to get them, its just a trolling thread.
there are ppl come and go since years, complaining and crying. this does not go fast, this must be changed now, its a bug! that other people play the game over years successful without issues to find the requirements for their craft, if not today, maybe tomorrow, seems to be no point for you. this game is not compareable to others, so play it if you like it and accept things how they are or just try to find something what satisfies you ( whats imo for ppl who always complain impossible anyway).

[dprail]

Assume I spent 100% of my time each day grinding, with 100% mood-to-grind time. Assume you're starting a fresh character with fresh game knowledge and not being handed things by others. How many hours or days would you guess it takes?


Do you think the real world has a well working loot system? I don't get the analogy... Anyways, in a real world scrapyard, I could look in a wide area around me, and only pick up the hub caps when I eventually spot them. In Xsyon, I have to blindly sample ever changing junk tiles until I randomly find the hub caps, and I probably have to trash many inventories full of items to ensure I still have room when I do find them.
Knife blades might be pretty uncommon in junkyards in real life, but if you go to an abandonded store, or warehouse, or house, you could probably find some pretty easily. Why is there random sprawls of junk tiles in the Xsyon universe again?
It can be a very frustrating system, and the hardcore vets of this crowd are likely way past those challenges to be able to empathize with players experiencing them.


This game is planned to be released onto Steam's early access, which means that the game and forums will be FLOODED with complaints, requests, and questions, because that's what early access means. Judging by this thread from a 3 year vet, this community has some work to do on accommodating the newcomers.

[MrDDT]

If your objective was ONLY skills? On the PVP server I could do them all in about 1 or 2 months. Using your 100% rule.
Having said that, all the skills to max is not a good objective, and also stats are important and they take much longer.

You ask how can a 3 year old vet not find these items? The fact is he isnt a 3 year old vet, he is a person that plays a minor amount of time in LONG swatches of time gaps and also wants everything handed to him on a silver platter. He CAN find the knife blades just he doesn't like how uncommon he gets them. Likely he is training up a skill like hunting which uses a lot of blades and is upset that he doesn't have 100 blades everyday.

You have to remember there are a few things missing here. This guy likely is making everything himself. So instead of getting knives that last 2x longer than his crap ones he makes he uses them 2x faster. On on top of that, because his skill at finding them is low (again because he doesnt do these things well) and isnt focused on scavenging it takes him likely 10x longer to find the items he wants. You can ask a scavenger like me or Shamie or someone that have been doing it all the time how long it takes to get them and they can have 1 for you in mins.

If you want to know about the lore of Xsyon I suggest reading it.

I agree with you on the newcomers but not because of this "3 year old vet" because he isnt a 3 year old real vet and second is this person is not a good example of a normal player.

New players have little advice and training system in game. I've been asking for a better one for a long time, we got a tutorial system but I do not think it does its job well at all.

You are making my point at the end of your post a few posts up about what I'm talking about. Xsyon promotes people to do everything themselves and not work with others. This thought process needs to change, to change it the Devs need to promote it.
Read up I talk about this issue. Content is about finding out what people want to do at different tiers. New players, mediocre players, and vets. Vets being the least important at steam release, but new players need to see long term objectives also.

[znaiika]

DDT, I can only say this, Xsyon's end is near with the settings you want weather you want it or not, I don't think people who have to pay more then $15 for the full content will actually play.
You have many accounts so for you your system is even better but for the rest it's not.
If Xsyon want to spent his last chance to get the population back, he needs to understand the demand, other wise don't spend your last resources just change ownership, reset Xsyon world to new and make the game for the demanded crowd, then you can save your game.

[MrDDT]

You keep saying its at it's end with the settings I want, but it DOESN'T have those settings. It has the settings how YOU want.
You can currently have ALL the skills. Why do you keep saying that the end is near and doing bad because of my settings when its YOUR settings that is currently on the server (PVE Only and ALL SKILLS).

You also comment about me having many accounts, I don't think you understand that I have ALL the skills on 1 guy, I dont need more accounts. Those other accounts were for increased tribal area and the option to place totems in locations I wanted to use.
Later on I did a test on how long it would take to level up a skill from 1 to 100, then I tested how long it would take to level up my stats from 90 to 110. I ended doing more tests with that toon because DDT had all the skills already.

[znaiika]

Xsyon have 70% of your setting already implemented, look where they got Xsyon, with low population.
You want your settings because you have so many accounts and those accounts will be useless if Xsyon change setting so people would only need one account to play how they want.
You keep on saying that one can do everything which is false info.
Look at where you setting got you to, Xsyon should learn when people made exodus and fix those problems that caused exodus not creating new problems, it is important to change things before steam launch.

[MrDDT]

Ok so if I'm all about making my account worth something then why would I want to change the totem system to move away from being rewarded for all my extra account?

You don't make sense man, just think for a min on what you are saying. Also not sure where you get the 70% from but if it's like everything else you say, its completely made up with little fact behind it.

How is me saying anyone can do everything false? This is a fact, anyone can do EVERYTHING, not just anything but everything.
Also if you think people made the exodus because of this issue not only would you be wrong because I don't think they left because of the skill system either way. It's because of many other issues like the first few weeks the servers were crashing and having 10+ hour roll backs.

There will not be a lot of change before steam release. There isn't enough time.

[znaiika]

Let me refresh your memory.


""Aside from the hectic launch period, there were 3 main updates that caused a heavy decrease in active game population.

1) Totem and tribe decay with the advent of revenants.
2) Skill and stat balancing update. ""Xsyon did not say was good for the Xsyon"".
3) Opening the game to Free to Play.

Personally I feel the two content updates improved Xsyon. Tribe decay is necessary and opening up the game to free players had to be tried in today's environment. Some players did return with these updates, but not enough to compensate for those that left. The PvE server launch did cause some players to leave, but those that returned more than compensated for the loss.""

And those that returned would actually quit is they didn't already, on top of that new players from steam would not only quit but they will flame Xsyon and ask for refund as well, I don't think this will turn-out well for Xsyon.

[MrDDT]

Xsyon says a lot of things. Like animal growth is currently working, or breeding.

You can refresh my memory or not, but I see the facts. Log on the server, and you tell me if there are more people playing now than before the PVE server. Ask anyone and they will ALL tell you NO.

Skill and stat balancing was needed and had nothing to do with your system of everyone can do everything or not. What it did was put in a decay system. Not limit the number of skills. Again a system I do NOT and did NOT want.

Totem decay and revs is likely the best update I've seen. It was needed and Revs are one of the coolest things in the game. If anyone says that was bad for the game then I would love to know the reasons why. I think Xsyon is viewing some of the data like many things wrong.
You can believe what you want, but the fact is players can do EVERYONE with 1 toon, this is a fact not an opinion.

[znaiika]

people don't play because of your skill system and your choke points.
I am too agree on decay and revs, but basket decay on public land need to be adjusted too before steam.

[MrDDT]

When my systems are in place, I might agree with you until then, I will disagree. Good luck.

[dprail]

If your objective was ONLY skills? On the PVP server I could do them all in about 1 or 2 months. Using your 100% rule.
Having said that, all the skills to max is not a good objective, and also stats are important and they take much longer.


Damn, 1-2 months play time is pretty extreme -- that's easily a year for even fairly hardcore players... especially when thats fighting against a decay system?? Does that mean you have to continuously grind to stay maxed?
And that's with your game knowledge. Imagine a fresh or less knowledgable player like OP, no wonder he doesn't think all skills can be maxed.
What does the PvP server have to do with it?
How long with maxing STATS take, if they're the actually important bit?



He CAN find the knife blades just he doesn't like how uncommon he gets them. Likely he is training up a skill like hunting which uses a lot of blades and is upset that he doesn't have 100 blades everyday.


This sounds like yet another issue. If grinding takes resources, and those resources are rare.... he can't even grind. Why does grinding a simple skill like hunting require so many rare resources?

Like I mentioned before, it sounds like you can't really appreciate the plight of the less wealthy here.
This guy is logging on to go hunt some rabbits and all of a sudden his blade breaks, so now he has to go spend an hour to go find another one before he can do what he logged on to do... and if he is as casual as you say, his hunting is probably worthless, meaning he can't even trade people for better quality knives since they could do what he does way better.

[znaiika]

dprail, I don't think DDT understand that, he have too much real cash to buy many accounts plus he spends too much time playing.

[MrDDT]

Damn, 1-2 months play time is pretty extreme -- that's easily a year for even fairly hardcore players... especially when thats fighting against a decay system?? Does that mean you have to continuously grind to stay maxed?
And that's with your game knowledge. Imagine a fresh or less knowledgable player like OP, no wonder he doesn't think all skills can be maxed.
What does the PvP server have to do with it?
How long with maxing STATS take, if they're the actually important bit?



This sounds like yet another issue. If grinding takes resources, and those resources are rare.... he can't even grind. Why does grinding a simple skill like hunting require so many rare resources?

Like I mentioned before, it sounds like you can't really appreciate the plight of the less wealthy here.
This guy is logging on to go hunt some rabbits and all of a sudden his blade breaks, so now he has to go spend an hour to go find another one before he can do what he logged on to do... and if he is as casual as you say, his hunting is probably worthless, meaning he can't even trade people for better quality knives since they could do what he does way better.

Where are you getting "rare" resource from? Its not rare, its uncommon.
And its ONLY uncommon in scavenging, its common in hunting.
Making a knife is pretty easy, it's only sorta hard for a new player (who starts with 1 or 2 of them depending on starting skills) because they can't kill a bear/deer.
If you are a hunter (who uses blades the most) you can easy replace your blades just by hunting.

About the speed of grind, you said 100% of the skills, and I was talking about WITH decay. Decay is part of the grind of leveling a toon.
PvP server effects on how to train some skills (combat ones) which make it easier on there than the PVE server.
I think 1 to 2 months for every skill in the game isn't a long time, I think its a good time maybe even too fast.

Why would his blade break "all of the sudden"? It has a dura uses left displayed.
If he has played long enough to break a blade, he should have MORE than enough resources to trade someone for 10 new blades, that's not even counting the fact you can get mats without using any equipment at all and trade those mats.
Biggest problem comes with trying to buy them in global and on the crappy trade system not really how easy or hard they are to make.
You are mixing 2 different problems. The one that znaiika is saying is not a real problem at all, the one that is a real problem is the lack of a real trade system that works, economy is very bad. Having said that, hunted items are normally very worth while, so anyone that is doing hunting should make good using global to chat with traders.
Now making someone and doing it all yourself is another story. Anyone trying to "go it alone" should understand it will not be easy. That's on them in my opinion. It surely can be done, and after about 2 weeks of learning the game, its pretty easy.

[znaiika]

As I said, pointless, good luck with your way ddt Xsyon will not survive on those setting you want, because your aim is for a small crowd.

[MrDDT]

Yeah, I don't like to hand everyone the whole game on log in.

This is the main issue I've seen with people. They ask for things easier and easier and forget that getting everything makes it so they have nothing to do.

It's like when a new player logs in and says "where do I find nails?" and people say "here I will give you nails". This is a major issue of drive of players to do something. It seems minor but these new players WANT to play the game, not have things handed to them.

Then you have others like you who think they want all this stuff easier, until it's very easy then complain because they are bored, or just simply quit because there is nothing to do.

[znaiika]

I told you before and I will tell you again, you will never have good economy based on restrictions and chokes, which leads to lack of population, the root of lack of population is that people pay for game and then pay $15 monthly only to find out that they are limited in a sandbox game, those new players will actually quit because of your settings, not to mention those like me who don't like to be limited and choked in any way.
Xsyon will never succeed if he keeps building this game your way, and he will loose the last chance of getting population when steam launches, I am 99% sure that people will stop trusting Xsyon after launch on steam.

You biggest issue ddt is your stubbornness.

[dprail]

Making a knife is pretty easy, it's only sorta hard for a new player (who starts with 1 or 2 of them depending on starting skills) because they can't kill a bear/deer.
If you are a hunter (who uses blades the most) you can easy replace your blades just by hunting.

You said he's probably a hunter (which uses a lot of blades) and is whining that he doesn't have blades to level with... So I guess you mean he's at the pre-bear/deer killing stage?... and it's not viable for him to get knifes in the way that you're suggesting?



About the speed of grind, you said 100% of the skills, and I was talking about WITH decay. Decay is part of the grind of leveling a toon.
PvP server effects on how to train some skills (combat ones) which make it easier on there than the PVE server.
I think 1 to 2 months for every skill in the game isn't a long time, I think its a good time maybe even too fast.

1 to 2 months of play time, with veteran knowledge, on a server in which you can exploit pvp mechanics to level combat skills... That is an EXTREMELY long time. That means a newbie who plays 2 hours a day is still looking at ATLEAST 2 years to max out JUST the skills, and then there's this stat grind that you suggest is way more difficult. And you've already said that the grind itself is mostly just clicking and waiting, so yeah.. this doesn't sound like something that your average steam user is going to subscribe to long term.

[dprail]

This isn't about making things easier, it's about balancing the game so that at least the grind can be enjoyable, so that people continue playing long enough to start building a base of players.
If this guy is having trouble getting just the material he needs to PLAY THE GAME, then it's probably not enjoyable.

[MrDDT]

This isn't about making things easier, it's about balancing the game so that at least the grind can be enjoyable, so that people continue playing long enough to start building a base of players.
If this guy is having trouble getting just the material he needs to PLAY THE GAME, then it's probably not enjoyable.

First off you can say that about just about any game. Please name a game where someone playing 2 hours a day will get 100% of the game done in less than a year? (MMO)

Second off, you are talking about some silly things, like leveling ALL the skills when no one wants to do that, even myself.

Third is I told you already you can't go by what this guy is saying because he doesnt do things as a normal person would. Like kill a deer for a knife blade likely because he didnt even know you could.

You make a statement at the end like "this doesnt sound like something your average steam user is going to subscribe to long term"
Well I don't think that's the objective of the dev. He doesnt care about the avg steam sure, he is looking for a % of steam to come play the game and have fun. I bet if he gets a couple thousand people he would be more than happy. He is coding a dream game for him, not for the avg steam user. So remember this isnt about making the masses happy, and to be honest if this were about that, I would change some of the ideas I have. This is about making the game the way that Xsyon wanted and bring some people with it, it doesnt need to be millions and it likely wont even be 100s of thousands.

Focus on the things that will effect the game in the direction Xsyon wanted the game to go. Maybe this game isnt for me or you, maybe he wants others. But right now I don't see this game fitting anyone and I'm making my ideas and changes based on what I think works as a whole, not the masses and not for a few people just normal ideas that make things work correctly.

P.S. You say "exploit pvp" when it was made that way not an exploit. You make it sound like its not intended or bad, Xsyon new about it and changed the combat system to account for the time it takes to level up that way. Which is also why I believe it should be changed on the PVE server. (and pvp in a different way, like lower gains from pvp while increasing gains from pve)

[MrDDT]

I told you before and I will tell you again, you will never have good economy based on restrictions and chokes, which leads to lack of population, the root of lack of population is that people pay for game and then pay $15 monthly only to find out that they are limited in a sandbox game, those new players will actually quit because of your settings, not to mention those like me who don't like to be limited and choked in any way.
Xsyon will never succeed if he keeps building this game your way, and he will loose the last chance of getting population when steam launches, I am 99% sure that people will stop trusting Xsyon after launch on steam.

You biggest issue ddt is your stubbornness.

You keep saying the "root of the lack of population" problem is due to limits, THERE ARE NO LIMITS YOU CAN HAVE EVERY SKILL! Why can you not see this? Currently there are no limits. So if limits were the problem according to you the game would be BOOMing because there are NO LIMITS!

/wipesbrow

Anyways, clearly I can't explain it to you, pretty sure like last time everyone understands that you don't know what you are talking about.

[GuideXaphan]

I'm going to leave this thread open for a little while longer, the debate is heated and points are being made. The problem with this thread is that we have personal attacks taking place and you need to refrain from flame baiting or calling someone out personally to try and make your point.

Maxing out all skills is possible with the current soft caps, you can make the argument that the soft caps need to go so everyone can max out all skills with little to no effort but I think you need to direct those sort of questions to Xsyon himself. The soft caps aren't a large hurdle to over come and I think the premise behind those caps is to promote trade for those who have put the time and effort in to a set of skills, at the moment it is hard as you say because of current population but Xsyon is looking at other means to promote trade. You could also post on the suggestion board about ways to promote trade.

[azzymor]

It has been an interesting reading of this thread. Many points have been made and.. well, some pies were hitting thin air.

If we refrain from using concrete examples of how the game should be, or shouldn't be, and instead try to nail down what makes a game "good" it would somehow all depend on how motivated we were to play that game. The funny thing about that is that not everyone find the same game good. Some hate it, others love it. Some games have huge audiences, others have almost none. All gamers are intrinsically motivated (with a few exceptions). That is what we know, and still we know nothing (just like Jon Snow).

Motivation itself could be viewed as a model with four separate driving needs (still intrinsic) according to Bartle/Radoff. These driving needs are Immersion, Competition, Cooperation and Achievement. Since we (players) are driven by different levels of these needs a game that caters to all the needs will most likely be considered a "good" game by any player. A game with a focus on immersion and almost no focus on the other aspects would be considered a fail by a player mainly driven by the other needs.

With that in mind it's easy to see that neither DDT or Znaika are wrong, nor right - hehe. They do both express their opinion on changes they want to see that makes the game better fullfill their needs, its just that their needs differ.

Making a game that caters too those needs is surely a challenge, and most likely why I'm not a game designer. I don't envy Xsyon in this, nor anyone else. I congratulate people like Marcus Person who by today is a billionaire just because he got those four driving needs right (well, not so sure about the immersion in that case).

[MrDDT]

Azzymor,
I don't mind people giving opinions thats cool. I except that people will disagree on opinion.
But saying your opinion is based on the fact of X and turns out X is not even a fact, and it's wrong. Tells me 2 things. 1)Your opinion has no worth due to your fact being wrong, and 2) You likely don't know enough to give a good opinion.

When someone says that you CAN NOT learn all the skills in the game, and gives an opinion solely based on this, I can't put value in that opinion.
We know for a FACT that any 1 player can learn all the skills. Now it can be opinion on how "hard" it is to do this, but it is still possible.

That is why I try to give all the information that I have learned about the game and let people give opinions and their own experiences also.

Opinion to me is 2 people go look for a weapon blade.
1)Says wow, I found 1 after only 20mins. It's easy to get them.
2)Says wow, It takes 20mins to find this! This is way to hard.

They are opinions based on the same facts, and they feel differently about it. I'm ok with that. But if some says it takes "weeks to find a knife blade" and the other says it takes "seconds to find them" clearly there is issue with the data/facts for people to make opinions.
Now they can explain their experiences about how long it took them personally but to say its the "normal" or "avg" time might not be correct.

So before coming to an opinion you really should also have information on why you have that opinion.
So if you tell me "I think that if knife blades take 2+ hours to get one on avg, then that's too long it should be no more than 15 to 20mins". That's a good starting point for an opinion.
If you were then to find out, the "avg" or "normal" time to get knife blades were 10mins, then you should be in agreement that it's not to hard. At the same token if you find out the avg or normal time is 1 hour, then you would say its to long.

So as you can see in this topic many parts of it is from some people lacking the understanding of how often or the "normal" drop rate or system works. Which can be address as another topic of "learning the game" but saying they are too rare might not be a good opinion because they are unaware of how to get them.

Same goes for much of the topic about how skills are a "choke" or "restriction" when the fact is there is no choke or restriction at all.

Once you get past that, you can then start getting into opinions and where to take some of the ideas from there, true problem solving.

[azzymor]

MrDDt,

I don't disagree with you. In fact I have a much easier time following your line of thought than I do with Znaika's and it is more appealing to me.

What I was trying to get to was that to me Xsyon have shortcomings in all four categories of motivation. It isn't immersive enough for me, it isn't competitive enough, it isn't cooperative enough nor do I find it rewarding when it comes to achieving. So to me the whole discussion regaring if it is hard or not to find a knife blade (or old sawblades) is a little ... amusing. It's like sitting in a boat that is floundering and arguing over which kind of wood the oars are made of.

To me it would be better to ask the questions "how do we make the game more appealing to those driven by [immersion|cooperation|competition|achieving]"? Would Public Rankings appeal to those driven by competition/achieving? Would pvp-zones appeal to those into competition/immersion while still not deter those into other motivational factors?

Anyway - I know I'm way of the OP's topic and apologize for that.

[MrDDT]

Yeah, but you have to start somewhere, hammering out objectives even if they are minor like filling a bullethole in a boat that is sinking fast doesnt mean it's not something that can't be addressed easy or quickly.

Also in this case here, making the game better is going to take time, and effort and not going to be done overnight. So getting a few things done even small improve the game overall. It's like building a house brick by brick. It will take a lot of bricks, but you have to start somewhere.

My main issue is you want to start with good points from an factual standing, and not base it off misunderstanding of what is really happening.


Another example is I know a lot of people say things like, "Animals are too hard, I can't even kill a deer". Well it might not even be the animals that is the problem but simple misunderstanding that the animals are not to hard, its that the person doesn't have any gear and expects to kill them naked.
Now getting gear or clothed might be very hard, giving the impression that animals are too hard.
So they often end up offering suggestions to make animals easier "they should attack slower, and not for as much damage". Only that could be the very wrong answer because when the person then finds out that clothing isnt hard to get, or when clothing is easier to get, then animals are too easy now.
This last point has been an issue many times, Xsyon himself has said that he has got information from players only to end up changing things back (or many changes back and forth) because of misunderstanding or players lacking information.

Xsyon relies a lot on player feedback, he doesn't know how hard or easy many things are, and something being "hard" is relative. You could find running across the map to be a "hard" activity because you get lost easy, while someone else not only thinks its easy, but is very fun to see the world like that.

I'm sure I'm kicking a dead horse here, but the overall point is that informed players make better opinions and advice on doing things. New players have their place in offering advice on what they can (new experience) but advanced opinions/advice should be for players who are with enough experience or understanding of that advanced system.

[znaiika]

DDT, that's what I said, I spent a whole day scavenging and I could not find one blade, I went through half side of the lake scavenging that is, I don't think this is normal, and that is why I protested, it is way too much frustration for supposed fun game. And of coarse I would agree with you disagreeing with me If I would sit close to my totem and just scavenge for 20 minutes, but spending a lot of time and not being able to find what I need is that's my concern.

And I don't say animals should be easier, I am just saying other means should more accessible, even if they are lower quality.

[GuideXaphan]

Some areas will have a better % to find a certain item than others, distance from your totem in relation to where you are scavenging, and skill.

There are the bone knife options that don't require any blades and means of trading with other players for blades, these are all viable options if you can't find one based on skill, location, or you're scavenging to close to your totem.

[znaiika]

GuideXaphan, can you be more specific on that bone knife, which dose not require knife blade? apart from bear claw and dear antlers.

[MrDDT]

GuideXaphan, can you be more specific on that bone knife, which dose not require knife blade? apart from bear claw and dear antlers.

You have 2 options.

Scavenge or kill those 2 animals to get the knife parts.

I don't think that's hard.

I'm not sure why you can't find them but maybe ask in game where people find them. If you can figure that out, you know where to look. Like I said they are not that rare just uncommon. Which means they are not as common as something like dollar bills, but also not as rare as say stainless steel items.

[GuideXaphan]

GuideXaphan, can you be more specific on that bone knife, which dose not require knife blade? apart from bear claw and dear antlers.

Sorry, I was referring to the antler/bear claw option. Could there be more knife options to craft? Sure, but it needs to balance out based on durability compared to a actual metal blade knife. I can only tell you to make a suggestion in the suggestion board to keep it organized for Xsyon if that is something he feels would be a welcome addition and you make the point that it's needed.