01/30/2015 Multi-Story Building Discussion

[Xsyon]

This thread is for general discussion of the upcoming building system changes. Bugs and technical issues should be reported in the other multi-story feedback thread.

First, I know players are wondering what will happen with buildings that defy rules that will be enforced with the changes to the construction system. They will remain. Unfinished parts will require proper support to be completed and I will make adjustments as needed so that players can complete and improve their projects.

I understand the concerns expressed so far and would like to present information that is driving the decisions behind this update.

Technically the method currently used for multi-story building is a bug and an exploit that got out of control before I became aware of it. As players enjoyed the results and used it responsibly I allowed it to continue rather than implement the proper multi-story system that I had designed.

Players have used these methods to build some fantastic buildings! Yet, over time I've come to realize that the negative impact of the current methods outweighs the positive effects.

- The 'drop method' currently used is cumbersome and practically inaccessible to new players.

- This method has caused the creature path finding and blocking maps to be riddled with errors and is the root cause for several major issues with creature AI (such as creatures seen walking straight through walls).

- Using this method to overlap parts has resulted in some interesting creative combinations but also allows for unsightly merged parts causing collision and rendering problems.

- Using this method to place floating buildings has led to some cool constructions such as tree houses, but when used carelessly results in impossible bugged looking structures.

Here are some statistics regarding the current method of combining parts and drop building multiple stories:

Within the past year less 5% of characters that have built buildings have built overlapped parts or multiple stories.

Of the characters that have used these methods, many have been alt characters. Overall, roughly 3% of players that have built anything over the past year have used these methods and less than 1% of new players have reached this point.

Since these methods were discovered, less than 1% of builders have used these methods.

From the statistics and from talking to many casual players, I understand now that allowing the current methods have caused a major problem that active players don't see. The typical new player that comes to Xsyon attracted by screenshots of cool multi-story buildings sees no way of building beyond a single story. Some interact with active players but find the current methods awkward and time consuming and move on.

Very few new players reach the point where they can build in the manner shown off in screenshots and videos that drew them to Xsyon. Proper multi-story construction is needed!

I will emphasize something very important here: In general the current trick method of construction was used responsibly by a limited group of players. Making multi-story construction readily available to all players comes with the need to control construction. Without controls, players will not build responsibly and I can assure all of you that nobody will be happy with the results.

So here's where I am at now:

- I will continue with this update and it will be released as soon as possible.

- I see this as an opportunity to bring creative multi-story building to the average Xsyon citizen as well as greatly facilitate renovation for veteran players. New high level parts and recipes can be added which provide a goal for budding architects to work towards. Increased construction leads to increased need for materials which means increased trade and more new players sticking around longer.

- We'll start cautiously with restrictions and ease them if doing so does not reveal any problems.

- I would like feedback on specific situations that you players would like to be able to continue to build. Adjustments can be made to accommodate creativity and flexibility without compromising the integrity of creature path finding or allowing for ridiculous and unsightly construction. For example:

-- Tree houses: I can add taller and cantilevered supports that can allow for non floating tree houses.

-- Overlapped parts: If some overlapped parts have desirable results, I can add proper parts which combine the existing parts but with optimized collision.

Please provide locations or screenshots with the map panel on to illustrate the situation and I will do my best to allow for similar constructions to continue to be built as long as they will not cause problems.

I hope that this alleviates concerns and I thank you all for your feedback so far!

[MrDDT]

Whats going to happen with the buildings with floating parts already?

[Bejaymac]

TBH I'm not liking some of the changes, preferred what we had on test previously. I used the frames to build with but left them as ghosts, got the BPs from Uriel before you ask, then I'd place the building parts (floors, walls etc) and construct them, this allowed me to build quite elaborate structures, once everything was built I'd then remove the ghost frames, leaving me with buildings that defy gravity.

The current system means I have to construct the frames before I can construct the stuff on top of them, not a real problem as I can dismantle the frames after I've finished, so I can still have gravity defying structures, but this -
Proper blocking of dismantling so that invalid situations (floating building parts) are not possible.- scares me, if it means the end of gravity defying structures, then I think most of your builders are going to tell you where to stick your update, and possibly even your game.

[Pwnuts]

if there is no alternative way to keep what players build over years i dont think there wont be much players left. jordi would finally kick out the ppl who payed for years.

[MrDDT]

TBH I'm not liking some of the changes, preferred what we had on test previously. I used the frames to build with but left them as ghosts, got the BPs from Uriel before you ask, then I'd place the building parts (floors, walls etc) and construct them, this allowed me to build quite elaborate structures, once everything was built I'd then remove the ghost frames, leaving me with buildings that defy gravity.

The current system means I have to construct the frames before I can construct the stuff on top of them, not a real problem as I can dismantle the frames after I've finished, so I can still have gravity defying structures, but this -- scares me, if it means the end of gravity defying structures, then I think most of your builders are going to tell you where to stick your update, and possibly even your game.

To me this is a step backwards. Gravity defying buildings (floating parts), is a large part of the building in Xsyon. I understand with the changes of building ground up it will remove the need to float items to build under them, but it also removes a lot of building choices. Like bridges, 2 story large floors. Any rooms/buildings with overhangs, tree houses, etc.

I believe there is a point where realism vs fun gameplay comes at a balance. This floating buildings thing is a fun factor and likely should not be removed because it is more realistic.
I would take extra time to think about it to see is this really what you want Xsyon? Removing some fun/creativity for realism?

My opinion is no. I'm not a builder like many others are, but I feel that removing this would hinder a lot of creativity for people that do like to build.

I think do like Bejaymac is saying, allow it to be built from the ground up, but removing the under buildings after its build would allow floating stuff still.

[Pwnuts]

add the new systems when its fixed but keep the old way...

[chojinuk]

Whats going to happen with the buildings with floating parts already?

From what Ive seen on the test server already constructed Arch will not be affected so current
floating arch will still be there.

But if you do dismantle currently floating arch made before the changes - it immediately turns Red
meaning that you cant re-build it until you place a Banaya Frame under it, then it turns gray and
you can build it again - removing the frame afterwards.

The new system will prevent new floating arch but finished and built arch seems to be unaffected until you dismantle it.

BUT.... the new system isnt finshed yet so I cant be certain how current arch will be affected - if at all.

Overall the new system will just change how NEW arch is done. - it seems
What am I'm saying is that I dont think anything already built will change.
so nothing will fall to the floor thats already built. ie not a ghost
(I think the worst that will happen is that unsupported Ghost arch will turn Red
meaning you cant build until you turn it grey by supporting it- but dont quote me)

[EDIT - actually while writing this post i already thought of way to do floating arch with the new
system - it seems once its built arch its safe so using both dirt piles and or frames you can build
something on top of dirt or a frame then build the project so its not a ghost anymore and then
remove the dirt and frame. in fact just the same as now]

These arch changes primarily change how ghost arch behaves ie it doesnt drop like before
and it it turns red when not supported.

So drop arch wont work anymore, you can build on a roof, it no longer falls to the floor though.
(due to collision)

So anyone already building with Drop Arch will need to finish b4 these changes go live!!

Maybe Jordi could announce the date these changes will hit the live servers at least a few weeks before he implements it to give players a chance to finish any current drop arch projects.

Sark

[MrDDT]

He hasn't done the floating removal thing on the test server yet, from what I understand. That is on his todo list for the patch.
I expect what it will do is remove the floating building choice and I'm not a fan of that even though it would be more realistic.

I'm also not a fan of the drop building removal as I believe it will also remove creativity from players. Right now you can overlap and build projects inside other projects. With that change you will not have that option. I do believe he is debating the collision option, however, I know he hates the overlapping texture issues.

[Sammie]

Hello well say what you like does not matter what Jordi does There will be player`s that wont like it It like that all the time I did try and i like it But am not good in building so that will help me a lot So keep the good work Jordi this his your game :)

[Mactavendish]

Any of you that know me, know that building is my main passion in xsyon.

Up to now the thing that has been most limiting on my creativity is the need to resort to tricks like drop building and the need to pile up huge mounds of dirt to make anything cool. All of these issue disappear with the new system!

I have been working with it and have to say that I really believe this is one of the best steps Jordi has taken in his working to improve the game play. The system makes it very easy to build complex and creative structures.

What this new system does is actually free up the builder to dram and layout much more complex and creative structures than has ever been possible before. It will also allow for much "cleaner" looking buildings, better use of the parts already available and will lead to using basic parts in much more creative ways then ever before.

I firmly disagree with those saying it will limit a builders creativity. Those that are making those comments admit they are not passionate about building, I as one of those that IS passionate about build, look forward to these changes with great excitement.

However, I know some will disagree, but I think this is going to lead to MORE people joining the game and MORE enjoying the game than now, and won't lead to people quitting.

[Pwnuts]

how will this change bring new player to the game? i mean new player wont come after this patch is (maybe) implemented, because of the change. also new player who join wont even take note of this since they dont know how it worked in the past. keep of new players will be worse couz they can see things players builded up in the past which they are not able to do anymore.

i think it decrease the creativity of bouilders, and i count myself tho those who are building a lot of difficult things as well. the new system is no math anymore, its lego.
i also see issues about ppl who currently work on a project, as i do. icecold does, i'm sure there are a whole bunch who do, on both servers. their projekt will mess up for a few reasons:
1. as you can see on testserver, dropping from a roof wont work anymore -> you now cant build with 4m distance, to make buildings fit, you need to do it by 4,3m
2. you wont be able to place walls exactly in the spot where you need them, you need to have them 0,2m outside the roof to make them fit ( as you have to if you dont drop )
3. you cant leave ghosts to check, you need to build, dig dirt away, and build the next stories. any misstake means you have to dig dirt up by 4m again + trouble with buildings who block you terraforming.

IMHO, the new system is a step forward, couz we have new possibilitys, especially that we can ( if its not a bug on testserver right now ) move projekts into the underground and still build them which helps us to create a "kind of" furniture. But the old system should still work in the same way as it did. both together would be a great additional implement. messing the old one and adding the new one without compormisses, in respect of what players builded up over past 5 years is just rude. i know the old system was not supposed to work as it (still) does, and ppl found a way to make multiple story buildings. now we officially gone do the same with limitations we didnt had before. there are 3 ways to finish it:

1. remove all old floating areas, also big housings without any architecture below a floor. that would mess with the vet players and i'm sure the game will loose a bunch of them this way. but it would satisfy the new player who wouldn't cry that there are building which they can not rebuild in their tribes.

2. keep the floating areas, get lots of crybabys who get pissed that there is stuff they can not rebuild. satisfaction for veteran players - newbs instead of vets will leave the game.

3. the only way which make sense, keep the old system, at least keep it working like this and add some new features which are already done ( move stuff up, move stuff faster, add colors to the ghost, add the frames and such ) to satisfy everyone and keep the stuff ppl builded up over years.

some may not have recognized that if floating areas are not possible + removed anymore, they will see all their big housings on the ground. not just my treehouse or willowhawks projects. unless you putted a wall/post under each floor.

[Mactavendish]

Yes that's true that it will affect a few peoples projects. BUT... let's be very honest and say that it may affect 4-6 individual players not a "bunch".

All of us want to leave our mark on the game and what we leave as buildings are in a sense, our legacy from playing here.

This is however, just an online video game we play for entertainment. The bottom line for the developer is to provide his players things that will make the game fun for them to play, and mechanics in game to let that happen. All games need to grow and change over time, and from the very start Jordi have said this game would be doing that. To stay with the old system that depended on tricks, unintended exploits like drop building, and unnecessary huge piles of dirt, is NOT going to help this game move forward.

New players don't stick around do to the tedious nature of building here. I say this with authority, since it has been the stated reason some of the Pawnee members that have left gave as the reason for leaving. Shoot I took a break at one point for that reason when i realized just how much work a project I had in mind would take.

I cannot believe though, that I or any other player can predict how all the vets will react to the coming changes. It is a sad thought to me that some would quit over a few buildings that are hanging in open space falling to the ground with this new system. To me, that just provides me with another opportunity to show my skill, when i figure out a new way to do that again, or maybe ( gasp ) do something even more amazing.

New players will certainly be helped out with this new system, and if any vets really have issues with it then I would like to offer to help them come up with something even more amazing than they had before... because, not will will be much easier to build than ever before!

Well done Mr. Davis for this vast improvement!

[MrDDT]

Any of you that know me, know that building is my main passion in xsyon.

Up to now the thing that has been most limiting on my creativity is the need to resort to tricks like drop building and the need to pile up huge mounds of dirt to make anything cool. All of these issue disappear with the new system!

I have been working with it and have to say that I really believe this is one of the best steps Jordi has taken in his working to improve the game play. The system makes it very easy to build complex and creative structures.

What this new system does is actually free up the builder to dram and layout much more complex and creative structures than has ever been possible before. It will also allow for much "cleaner" looking buildings, better use of the parts already available and will lead to using basic parts in much more creative ways then ever before.

I firmly disagree with those saying it will limit a builders creativity. Those that are making those comments admit they are not passionate about building, I as one of those that IS passionate about build, look forward to these changes with great excitement.

However, I know some will disagree, but I think this is going to lead to MORE people joining the game and MORE enjoying the game than now, and won't lead to people quitting.

Can you please list 1 way it adds MORE? Or allows for something I currently can't do? I would love to see it. I've tested it and its currently less a lot less.
If "cleaner" you mean no more overlapping, yep I agree it removes overlapping. Which means you have LESS options.

I do agree it does make it easier to build basic multistory buildings, but so far I can't see the "more" option. Only less. Like try putting a post right next to another post where they are 1/2 way inside each other. Or try making a tent where it's cutting through the floor so you can access the top of it through a floor.

[GuideIsrafel]

To those of you who are worried about multistory buildings with large floors, Xsyon will be seeing more than the current supports, there will be larger 8x8 or even 16x16 supports that will not clutter larger floors. It should also be noted that current buildings will NOT be affected by the changes, the only case they would be affected is if they were dismantled and in this case they would need supports if above ground. It's also important to note that you will be able to clip building parts down into the ground allowing for further customization than the current system.

[Bejaymac]

Well it's pointless discussing the "merits" of a system that for me doesn't work, I can't get any of the Banaya blueprints to build, I can place the ghosts no problem, I can even get all three colors, gray/yellow/red, I can even add the mats and tools to them, but the gray ghosts just give "invalid location" when I try to build them, which is stopping me from building any of the yellows.

Now I hope it's an "easy" fix, but going on experience from my game moding days, don't be too surprised if some of those "features" your "discussing" get removed as a result of the fix.

[Pwnuts]

Maybe Jordi could announce the date these changes will hit the live servers at least a few weeks before he implements it to give players a chance to finish any current drop arch projects.

Sark

+1 Sark.
at east to be fair

since some architectures will become unique, a new setting for member ranks would be a good solution to keep those.

"dismantle" ( only own architectures )
"dismantle all" leader + ppl who get this rank.

[Dabent]

One more thing the long time players get the new one will never see. No more bridges, no more tree houses, no more over hanging decks, no human bones, no scrapper carts on and on and on.
If you don't want new players just say so, we'll leave, we wont re-sub. I love this game but looking forward to what the others have is pointless. You will just take it out of the game before the I/new players get a chance to try it.
Ohwell it's your game you are going to do what you want.

[MrDDT]

+1 Sark.
at east to be fair

since some architectures will become unique, a new setting for member ranks would be a good solution to keep those.

"dismantle" ( only own architectures )
"dismantle all" leader + ppl who get this rank.

Goes even beyond this, we need the option to trade/sell building parts.
If you make something for the tribe as a leader I would like to control that. I don't want later you are a member to any time you choose able to tear down a piece that never can be built again, or cause other objects to fall.

[Xsyon]

What this new system does is actually free up the builder to dram and layout much more complex and creative structures than has ever been possible before. It will also allow for much "cleaner" looking buildings, better use of the parts already available and will lead to using basic parts in much more creative ways then ever before.Correct. One of my main goals here is to allow players to lay out and visualize their designs in full without hassles and dirt piles before actually building.


New players don't stick around do to the tedious nature of building here.Again, you are right and I should have realized the negative impact of the current building exploit and replaced it with a proper system much earlier. I can't go back in time though, so we'll move forward and make this update allow for as much customization and flexibility as possible.


One more thing the long time players get the new one will never see. No more bridges, no more tree houses, no more over hanging decks, no human bones, no scrapper carts on and on and on.Please read my top post in this thread.

Bridges, tree houses and cantilevered decks will not only be possible, they will be much easier to build than before. The only difference is that these parts won't be floating unrealistically, they will be supported by frame structures. As stated in the top post, I just need to see what situations players want to be able to build and I can add parts to accommodate these situations.

The situation that you are worried about: new players seeing cool buildings and not being able to build the same is exactly what has been going on for years now. The 'drop method' exploit is not readily apparent. It's been used by a very small fraction of players.

This update is going to open up multi-story building to all new players, not just the 1% that currently have learned to use the tedious 'drop method' bug.

Thanks again for the feedback so far!

[wastelandstoic]

Over all this seems like a reasonable addition/change to the building system especially since you have taken the time to give us some of the metrics behind you decisions. Yes, as a long time player there is some reticence about having to learn a new system having spent 2 years figuring out how to build the kinds of structures I wanted to build under current conditions but, your merits for the new system and willingness to leave all current structures as they are does alleviate most of that. In asking for the kinds of structures the community wants to build (that now do not have supports) you listed tree houses, hanging decks and bridges. These are the only ones I'm currently aware of that we would like to continue to be able to build. Do you want specific images or do the 3 TYPES you have listed cover what you are asking for at this time?

One other concern; with the drop method no longer available putting storage structures (canopies & smoke house) inside buildings will no longer be possible or at least much more problematic. Will it be possible to get some kind of structures (whether arch or woodworking i.e. --furniture) that can be placed inside buildings? (That, I assume, would have to ignore collision?)

I look forward to having the time to try out the new system which most likely will not be until it has gone live.
Thanks

[Pwnuts]

how much time will players have to finish their projects?

[Whorlok]

The system is good ...i love it on the testserver!..Now we can build things of our dreams.
one thing:
-Laterally rotate in smaller angles (not only 90 degrees)
-Give us smaller dices 0,2x0,2 and 0,1x0,1 then we can build fine structures

[Bejaymac]

Correct. One of my main goals here is to allow players to lay out and visualize their designs in full without hassles and dirt piles before actually building.
Kind of hard to do when you can only move ghosts 7.9 meters from your position, you have to build it as your designing it just to get high enough to place the next floor level.

I've had a chance to play with the new system now that the bug blocking me from building has been dealt with.

Was a fan of the new collision detection on the earlier testing and I'm pleased to see it's the same, the addition of being able to build on a completed frame or floor is a very nice touch.

Frames however are my biggest problem, on test previously I could leave them as ghosts and built the projects on top of them, then they were just something I thought of as temporary scaffolding and as such were just a PITA when they got in your way. Now that I actually have to build them to complete the projects on top of them they have become a PITFA, especially if your trying to build an internal stairwell with ramps, as the ramps don't play well with the frames.

TBH it's not the ramps that don't play nice, it's the empty space above that's the problem, you have to offset a frame so part of it is in the gap, that way it gets support from a frame below, and can give you enough support to catch your projects above. ATM this is only a PITA as we can dismantle the frames once construction is finished, that way we don't have to put up with meander frame legs inside our structures, and in my test piece I can replace the walls the offset frames are blocking me from placing.

Another point is the one wastelandstoic made about canopies/tents/smokehouses etc inside our buildings, without frames and assuming you have the head room the project can be started on a completed floor, with frames you have no chance as frames are nothing more than a solid block, which stops any architectural project from being placed inside them.


So my suggestion is a simple one yes keep the frames for building with, but once we have finished construction then please allow those of us that want to dismantle them to do just that, that way we can "furnish" the insides how we want.

[Xsyon]

how much time will players have to finish their projects?

The update will be released as soon as possible, as early as next week. This update is very important and is required for fixing creature path finding and collision issues.

[Xsyon]

Yes, as a long time player there is some reticence about having to learn a new system having spent 2 years figuring out how to build the kinds of structures I wanted to build under current conditions but, your merits for the new system and willingness to leave all current structures as they are does alleviate most of that.

For me this emphasizes the importance of this update. Multi-story building using the 'drop method' bug is difficult to learn and has been a barrier for new players.


In asking for the kinds of structures the community wants to build (that now do not have supports) you listed tree houses, hanging decks and bridges. These are the only ones I'm currently aware of that we would like to continue to be able to build.

Do you want specific images or do the 3 TYPES you have listed cover what you are asking for at this time?
That's ok. I already have some. Once I have the the type of frames necessary for these situations to be properly built ready, I'll ask for more feedback.


One other concern; with the drop method no longer available putting storage structures (canopies & smoke house) inside buildings will no longer be possible or at least much more problematic. Will it be possible to get some kind of structures (whether arch or woodworking i.e. --furniture) that can be placed inside buildings? (That, I assume, would have to ignore collision?)Yes! I have some furniture that was created a long time ago, but I needed to resolve collision and multi-story problems before releasing them. Once this building update is done I can start releasing furniture parts.

[Xsyon]

The system is good ...i love it on the testserver!..Now we can build things of our dreams.
one thing:
-Laterally rotate in smaller angles (not only 90 degrees)
-Give us smaller dices 0,2x0,2 and 0,1x0,1 then we can build fine structures

One step at a time! :-) Smaller pieces will be added over time. Allowing for full rotation will cause too many problems but I can add more angled and curved walls over time that fit the grid system.

[Xsyon]

Kind of hard to do when you can only move ghosts 7.9 meters from your position, you have to build it as your designing it just to get high enough to place the next floor level. Distances are being adjusted and can be discussed in the technical thread.


Frames however are my biggest problem ... especially if your trying to build an internal stairwell with ramps, as the ramps don't play well with the frames. Please list any problems you see with ramps and frames in the technical thread and I will look into it.

Keep in mind that right now there is one standard frame type but I will be adding many variations to allow for larger interior spaces and cantilevers.


Another point is the one wastelandstoic made about canopies/tents/smokehouses etc inside our buildings, without frames and assuming you have the head room the project can be started on a completed floor, with frames you have no chance as frames are nothing more than a solid block, which stops any architectural project from being placed inside them.Some building parts may be set as 'furniture' and allowed to be placed inside frames. We'll see once the basics are working 100%.


So my suggestion is a simple one yes keep the frames for building with, but once we have finished construction then please allow those of us that want to dismantle them to do just that, that way we can "furnish" the insides how we want.This would go against the purpose of the frames and again allow for floating buildings without physical support underneath. Larger frames and allowing small building parts to fit within the frame is a better solution.

Thanks for the input!

[Dabent]

No way to remove frames from under a floor? How do we do a bridge? or a nice big open room? Or an overhang? is everything now going to have to be cluttered up with all the frames?

I just was trying to build a small simple bridge but it will not let me remove the frame from under a floor.....It now seem to me that we can do less and it takes mare mats to do it. Once again maybe I am missing something but if we can't float floors how do we do a bridge? Are we going to be able to have roofs with big open spaces below like we can now? On the PvP server I have a nice parking garage (12X12) that has a high roof that is 8 meters up. I am assuming that is not possible anymore, without 2 levels of frames and 9 frames for each level. So far I am not liking this but I am sure there are others that are, so there is my 2 cents so far.

[Xsyon]

No way to remove frames from under a floor? How do we do a bridge? or a nice big open room? Or an overhang? is everything now going to have to be cluttered up with all the frames?

As I've stated, larger frames and cantilever frames will be added to allow for situations such as larger rooms, bridges, and overhang. We also have proper bridge parts that were never patched out because I wanted to first improve the collision and building system. With these things done I can start patching out the remaining construction parts which include low fences, porches, bridge parts and furniture.

[Bejaymac]

What supports what, just to give everyone a heads up on what I'm finding so far -

Walls and gates will support each other but nothing else.

Ramps and platforms will support each other but nothing else.

Frames support most other items but can only get support from another frame.

Floors only get support from the ground or frames, but can support ramps and platforms.

Posts cant support each other but do get support from walls and frame, and can be used to support walls (haven't tried frames yet).

Roofs can only get support from the ground and frames, but do not support anything themselves.

Not sure if tents/teepee's etc are part of the plan, but so far my tarp tent only works on the ground.

So my advise is if you have any ghosts not on the ground then get them built NOW, because once this goes live you will more that likely have to delete them all.

[Xsyon]

Please note: This update is in progress and that's why it's on the Test Server for feedback. This is not a final build.

There are restrictions in place right now that are in place only for testing while I make sure that placement and collision is working properly.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Pwnuts]

since you added what i was suggesting about the roads next to buildings, is it possible to go back to this again and add something which worked well in the past but has changed too. currently its not possible to add roads connecting to limestone surface anymore. would be nice if you can implement it to the patch too. thanks!

[Dabent]

Frames drop into random places while trying to move causing things to be "stuck" and then have to delete items and frame then start over. I was trying to see if I could get a ramp in a frame or a frame on a ramp and well that just caused headaches. I want to build a way to the 3rd floor but with no ramps inside of frame I do not see this as possible at the moment. At least no in a "stairwell" configuration. Long ramp on outside of building yes but ramps in a small building no.
This has happened a lot. When i try to move a frame over something , sometimes it just goes over it other times it drops into what I am trying to go over and then it is stuck, must delete to move on.
Are the corner frames supposed to be working? I can't get them to sit next to each other. Has a good meter or 2 between them but tells me I can't move because the other corner is in the way.

[Mactavendish]

Been working hard to see if I can make the second story have floors and then roof sections on top.

So far it's impossible.

I know you are working to get collision right, and maybe this has been addressed, but what't the point of a roof on a frame if you cannot slide in flooring on top of the frame too.

Please explain how you invision this working.

[Xsyon]

The Test Server is down for now. I need to patch out a lot of meshes so that all parts can be tested properly (not just Banaya parts).

I will post again when I'm ready for further testing.

A few comments on the above questions:

Regarding both a floor and a roof on top of a frame: This should work fine but for currently only with all Banaya parts. This will change with the next test server update.

Regarding frames dropping into stuck positions: I will need to reproduce this. Did this happen with all Banaya parts or a combination of a Banaya frame and other parts?

Regarding building situations: After the next test server update, if there are any building situations that you would like to achieve but currently can't build with the updated system, please post a description, a location on the test server and a screenshot if possible. These changes are in progress and there are just two situations that I need to prevent: building parts merged with other parts and floating parts with no type of support. New parts can be added to allow for more building situations to be accomplished.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Bejaymac]

@ Dabent, the "stairwell" is the ramp issue I posted about both in this thread and the tech issues thread, it's just not possible without having frames get in your way.
As for things dropping down and becoming stuck, it sounds like you have "Snap" selected in the movement window (little green tick).

@ Mactavendish, if your using anything else other than Banaya then you will have issues, the collision on the non modified architecture is about 1.5 meters off, so they just wont work. With all Banaya the floor should slip into the area between the bottom of the roofs/frames "legs" and the rope that runs around the projects.

[Mactavendish]

I feel compelled to comment on this thread.

It is very hard to feel compasion for the players complaining about how this new system will remove the ability to make things like walls in walls, tents inside buildings, and the "drop building" technique. Those complaining feel it takes away from their ability to build and be creative.

Ok, I am NOT trying to stir up anyone, but seriously folks that's not very honest.

Let's analyze what is being said here...

To remove the drop method, is to remove an exploit that was a work around at best and DID lead to lower frame rates for most players. The resulting buildings were often shoddy looking due to pieces not aligning correctly and sometimes even looked goofy with wood parts sticking out of masonry. To me personally it looked like what it is... and unintended exploit that didn't work. Sure it allowed you to build storage structures ( buildings with slots ) inside other structures that were not intended to have storage, but honestly folks it's and exploit.

And the need to build from the top down is unlike ANY other building game out there, and the need to pile up huge mounds of dirt was a huge turn off to most new players. I say that with great confidence due to what the evidence shows. Look at any big tribe that has lots of fancy 2, 3, or more story buildings and you will see that they were ALL made by 1 or 2 players not diff names on each one. This means that the majority of builder types never got into building here at all. Some carzy people like myself did, but I have lots of patience, sadly very few others have that.

The new changes will allow any new player to easily place and build very complex buildings, and never have to spend a lot of time setting up. This WILL lead to many more builder types enjoying building here and no doubt lead to much better retention.

The real issue is that the veteran players that are used to the other exploit, and this will force them to change how they build.
Every time this sort of change happens in an online gaime those used to the old way will complain and threaten to quit, but the fact is that Jordi wants this change, and never intended people to use the "drop" method to build. The mere fact that the pieces collide with each other tells you it was not intended. Now that he has gotten to where he can provide a proper building system, you want to complain now?

I for one feel this is a very good step in the right direction, and that it will have much better appeal to the new players and will lead to more players not less.

[MrDDT]

I'm not saying that changing it bad. I'm saying it's not adding anything to the game other than ease of building which can be done in other ways.
Also it's taking months away from other content.

2 things about your statements about 1 or 2 people building the larger tribes. First it,s false. It's normally more than 2+ for large tribes, I can list tribes if you wish, but your tribe and my tribe is one of them.
Second is the fact that the limited number of people building in tribes is more limited to the fact of other issues of ownership of buildings being able to be dismantled by the owner, not due to few people wanting to build. I've been asking for better options for this for a long time, and you will STILL see this issue with or without this current change.

The top down and dirt mount building was an issue. The drop placement is an issue due to rendering issues/mesh. Removing massive amounts of creativity from the game is a poor option when building is the focus of the game.
But hey, what do I know? I hate building anyways have it. Waste months of dev time to change something we already can do.

I think it would have been much easier to simply make it where people can terraform 10x faster.

[Bejaymac]

Not a vet, and with my place being slightly offset thanks to a totem "reset" I can't drop build nor jump build, the ghosts always land that little bit off from everything else.

I for one am glad we are getting these changes, it'll take away some of the headaches from trying to build stuff in my offset tribe.

However I'm an ex game modder and I know a thing or two about collision detection, so I'm doing the same thing to this new system as I did to my own mods as well as the mods of friends I helped test, and that's to try and break it.

That's why I've gone on about the issue between ramps/platforms and frames, with what we had on test an internal stairwell could only be two ramps high, if you want to go higher you had to move the ramp for the next floor to a different part of the building, but even then you still have the issue of support for anything above the first two ramps.
The only other way was to build all of your "stairs" on the outside of the building.

Being able to place ramps/platforms inside a frame would end that problem, but I don't think that would be an easy thing to do and still have the frame acting as support for everything above it.

A dedicated "stairwell" would probably work better, a 4x4x4 with 4 posts in the corners to act as visible supports, with a 2x4x4 stair model (or ramp) on one side, and set it up to support itself as well as frames and roofs.

[wastelandstoic]

The only pressing question/ concern I have about the new build system is: Once implemented, How do you plan to introduce the new support structures into the game?

If they are only introduced as new blue prints that will effectively reset all players (regardless of Arch skill) back to zero with regards to anything but single story construction. I'm hoping that based on Arch skill and/ or the types/ amounts of structures players have already learned the support structures will be given/ added to our existing, known Arch menu.

[Mactavendish]

From what I can see it seems that collision programming for xsyon is a bear, and I really feel for you Jordi.

I also appreciate your breakdown of the percentage of players that are actually complaining... a very small minority.

Once done, I can see this as a huge leap forward for the new players, and we have 5 in our tribe just chomping at the bit to try their hand at building. Yes, a very few vets are complaining about what cannot be done with the new system, but seriously, do treehouses and overhanging ledges REALLY define the limits of what you as a skilled and creative veteran of xsyon can build?

tsk, tsk...

The reason that 3-4 people are complaining with hyperbole and disengenuous words, is not because it takes away creativity, but because it makes what they made by means of tricks and exploits no longer possible, thus their "creativity" will be seen for what it is.

I predict much more elaborate structures, much cleaner looking construction, and much better thought out layouts to the buildings people build. I predict there will be MORE building by MORE people than before, and that anyone will be able to create truely cool structures now, not just a handful of veteran players that are willing to resort to exploits.

Folks, using dirt and cantilevered supports and the new post supports, much of what you are complaining about will be not only possibe but much easier to build. And perhaps that what you really dont like. the fact that others will be able to build even cooler stuff than you did, and much quicker.

I will say in closing that if you are willing to leave this game because he shut down some exploits, then perhaps its time to look for another game. At least give it a chance to bear fruit before you chop down the tree.

[MrDDT]

Oak, I'm not saying there wont be more building. It's going to be much easier, just like when they made the dirt easier to level, you saw more larger buildings (and higher).

I'm saying you lose options. Anyways, good luck I hope it works out that the 3+ months spent on this is want is wanted, at a time when steam is first released.

You act like they are exploits and tricks when without that style of building, Xsyon would have been dead a long time ago. You also act as if you are above using the building system or "exploits" as you call them.

I'm not going to say that it sucks I had to work harder to build what I had than someone coming into the game today. However, that isnt really my issue. It's that the games seems to take 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

You talk about "at least give it a chance". So you are asking for us to see if something bad happens and don't give thoughts of how to problem solve around it first, just toss it in and if bad things happen /shrug. I'm more of one that likes to make sure problems don't happen before I just do things.

It's a fact there will be LESS options than before. This adds NOTHING that we currently can't do. All it is doing is changing HOW we do it.
If you can tell me 1 thing you can do with this new system that I can't do before. I would be happy to keep going. Until then you should look at Why are we losing creativity?

[Whorlok]

i think the new system is good and our guild member are saying the same.I Love it..now i can build phantastic things with more fun and our ideas come to life with this

[Xsyon]

The only pressing question/ concern I have about the new build system is: Once implemented, How do you plan to introduce the new support structures into the game?

Some new parts, such as the basic 4x4 truss, will be auto learned based on skill level to enable basic multi-story construction.

Some new parts (such as bridge and balcony parts that will come with a second update) will be mostly gained through found recipes or inspiration.

[Xsyon]

From what I can see it seems that collision programming for xsyon is a bear, and I really feel for you Jordi.It's not too difficult, but there are many situations to consider and check. The repetitive testing and waiting for tests is taking me a lot more time than the actual coding.

The real 'bear' for me is learning and revising the AI and Path-finding code. This has been taking up most of my time since January, even with some assistance from the original programmer.


I also appreciate your breakdown of the percentage of players that are actually complaining... a very small minority.Only a very small percentage of players have ever used the current tricks for multi-story construction. I really wasn't aware until I ran queries on backed up data since launch.

[MrDDT]

Only a very small percentage of players have ever used the current tricks for multi-story construction. I really wasn't aware until I ran queries on backed up data since launch.

Using this logic, maybe you should run logs on seeing how many players make a master crafted item. I guess we should just remove those options also.

Of course only a small % of the population are going to do advanced things, that is how games and anything in life works. Anyways good luck.

Clearly you want building to be the only part of the game that even remotely works and I'm sure the "small percent" of the population that plays a video game is right there with you. Code what you know, and it's showing.

[Xsyon]

I'd like to reiterate and expand on a few things from my leading post in this thread.

The current tricks used for multi-story construction are based on problems and inaccuracies with collision and placement functions. Fixing these functions is imperative in order for me to continue with the following:

- Creature Path-finding, collision and AI
- Ranged combat
- Adding furniture into the game
- Assigning proper building uses
- Completing the building Real Estate system
- Allowing players to attack buildings

I can not complete the current creature revisions without fixing these functions.

Fixing these functions means no more 'drop method' construction, which essentially would remove multi-story construction from the game.

This update will not only add proper multi-story construction to the game, it will make it readily available to all players and not just the less than 5% of builders that have used the trick methods in the past.

The construction system changes are not taking much time away from other game improvements. I commenced work on the construction system in mid January. Although this update is the focus for testing until it's released, it has only been taking about 1/3 of my time. I've spent less than 2 weeks of my 'man-hours' on this task and it's nearly complete. Most of my time since January has been focused on creature code, loading optimizations and bug fixes.

Technically the method currently used for multi-story building is a bug and an exploit that got out of control before I became aware of it. In fact, some players deliberately hid this from me, encouraged others to not report it and spread word that I was well aware of its use when I was not.

As players enjoyed the results and used it responsibly I allowed it to continue rather than implement the proper multi-story system that I had designed. In retrospect, it was the wrong decision.

If I had been aware of the problems this exploit was wreaking on other game systems, and if I had foreseen that allowing this to continue would limit multi-story construction to a tiny fraction of players, I simply would have completed proper multi-story building at that time.

With the new system players will have more control and flexibility with their designs. Parts can be manipulated from a greater distance and placement and movement parameters can be adjusted. Additional levels can be added without the player having to tear down what's already been built.

New site outlines assist the player to line up parts with ease. Parts can be partially sunken and slope limits have been removed. Many new parts will be added to the architect's collection.

Both new construction and renovation should be far easier than before!

[Xsyon]

Using this logic, maybe you should run logs on seeing how many players make a master crafted item. I guess we should just remove those options also.

Of course only a small % of the population are going to do advanced things, that is how games and anything in life works. Anyways good luck.

No, because adding a second story to a building should not be an 'advanced thing' for the top 1% tier of players. It's what draws many players to the game and should be accessible to all.

As explained above, what I am doing is removing a bug and exploit in order to improve many other aspects of the game. As I am doing this I am improving the construction system in general.

[Bejaymac]

I know that on your to do list for some time in the future you plan on having weather affect players, so I have a suggestion to make for the current building tests.

Just now the only way to avoid getting wet from the rain (or snow) is to use a tent/teepee or stand under a roof, yet even in a multi story building the rain can still get you if your a level or more under a roof.

Now I know that the trusses on test are copies of roofs and as such still have that code to stop rain (sheltered under a couple is how I know), so my suggestion is to add that code to all of the other trusses and cantilevers, future proofing our building work.

[Pwnuts]

1. honestly, if i read this there is one point i dont get.
dropping arcs create collision - i agree
the new system allows to make multiple stoys without dropping, but why do player even drop architectures? its really not a big deal to pull up a dirtpile and remove it, just to get some more story buildings. a very few players used the drop methode to drop storages under roofs / inside each other. but the most player just wanted to do multiple stories.

so the whole issue was that you was not able to "move" a wall under another wall because its ( till now ) been 4,3 instead of 4m. fixing this hight would have been the whole solution. removing the possibility to drop an arc from a roof and fix the high to move walls without any glitches or collision beneath each other would avoid the problems and could have been done years ago, if i understood that this was the problem.

2. a player have more options to place a ghost (project) like into the underground, more range, above each other.. but whats about the possibilitys we wont have anymore? floating platforms may not look realistic but building a platform with frames everywhere below looks realistic? i cant tell how glad i am that we do not have such treehouses in europe..

its been your own words in the greenlight video / steam trailer that this is a game with endless possibilitys. this patch just set limits. i would understand if you say both way's would still work, fixing the distance of 0,3m blocking and add frames for who want's them. a frame will set limits again.
- the view of a player inside a building will mess up
- feets of frames will annoy while moving
- long log stacks cant be placed inside buildings

there is right one tribe on the pve server which creats lags for player with an old computer because this guy have hundrets of uncompleted projects. the rendering on this place is very bad. after the update it will still be the same. i even think he wont keep going or even keep playing the game since he wont have the possibility to complete his tribe - result is that this place creat lags for much longer. a limitation of lets say 10 ghosts each tribal area would have avoid this situation too.
i'm sure a lot of people who never builded up something big or difficult will like the patch but only couz building gets really easy, they didnt recognize on which limits they have to build soon. just my 2 cents

[Bejaymac]

Pwnuts let's take your place as an example, only the ground floor of that multi story is actually working correctly, that's due to them being attached to the ground. The other floors lost their attachment to the ground when you terraformed the dirt from under them, I don't have access to the logs, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a very long list of errors coming from them.

Now errors are bad for a game, even more so for an online game, they affect the stability of the client and server and can even cause them to crash, they also add to the LAG/latency players suffer from, and from what Jordi has posted it also screws up the critter AI.

Jordi could have been evil and just went "F you lot" and crashed all of our buildings down to ground level, and then blocked us from making any more multi story buildings. But he hasn't, instead he's given us a new system, one where each item is attached to the ground either directly or through other items, while at the same time he's added something to our existing structures that has "bolted" them all together, just try dismantling a 1st story item on the test server and you'll see what I mean.

Last time I seen a real treehouse it was bolted to the tree or used a separate support structure, which is kind of hard to do in game.

As for that tribe you mentioned, if he doesn't finish it before this goes live then he's in for a bit of a nightmare, as most of his ghosts will have to be removed as he wont be able to build them, he'll probably have to redesign the whole place. Ghosts shouldn't be an issue any more, as you can only see the ones in your own tribe now, all we can see of other tribes ghosts is the pegs and frames.

[MrDDT]

Bejay, the floating buildings is not causing the issues you are talking about, its the overlapping buildings or (drop placed) ones.

The issue you are talking about has to be fixed either way. Whether you have support items or they are floating.

The point you saying it is "kinda hard to do in game" the fact is still you are REMOVING options from the game. You are mixing a lot of issues that are being fixed without the new change to building. Like the ghost lagging people. Has nothing to do with the new building system, and it on way limits players choice in buildings.

Bejay, he could have come back and said that yep. However, he would have seen even less people building as there would only be single story buildings and Xsyon's building system wouldn't be impressive. Now currently, Xsyon has one of the best building systems I've seen in an MMO. You put limits on it, and you are pushing Xsyon back into an era where it's just lackluster even more. Instead of limiting people he should be EMPOWERING people to be able to build more.

Just think on how you can build a room larger than 1 tile above the ground without silly posts in your way. It looks so silly I can't even start on how bad it is. Let alone the amazing things we have like Ravenmoons totem "Raven" or Elite's Tree house, or "Tower of Power". Just kiss them good bye. Because any new buildings CAN'T be built like that.
Bridges? Nope, can't be done.

Instead of limiting it, I would much rather have seen the work, time and effort be put into ADDing ways to do it better, and more wondrous things. Like bridges he always said we will be able to do. Well players found ways to do it, and now he is removing them. Unless of course you are ok with a bridge that has 4 pillars per for tile and in only shallow water.

[Pwnuts]

well, my 2 cents are there. back to the topic. once you gone "fix" (as you say ) architecture, there are 2-3 things should be done as well.

1st i'd like to see that all pioneer walls fit to each other. right now the gate fits only with the Log Wall III. all other walls will have diffrent high's on the logs.

2nd i'd like to be able, even with the new system to make a patio again. so remove the blocking of walls which a player wants to move under a roof ( its not unrealistic to make this at all )
http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150226/temp/g8qk7we7.png (http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3910/g8qk7we7_png.htm)

3rd create a expandable frame. to show how it could work i drawed a explaination. -> http://kaoz-subs.de/peanuts/stütze.png
i just made the normal one to explain how it can be. a corner frame (still the same just with 2 instead of 1 short sides) would be neccessairy to expand in 2 directions.
for sure in 4x4 and 8x8

4th all posts are higher than 4m. change them to 4m high so we can still build a post over another one without collision.

no commercial for other games, but a frame under every constructions is not neccesairy to make something realistic. this short part of another games trailer will explain a physic of building i really like. http://youtu.be/wwJUlQID3nM?t=3m26s

[Xsyon]

To Pwnuts:

Regarding Pioneer Walls: All walls and gates fit together well now. The only exception is the Low Limestone Wall that needs revised placement bounds. Some walls and gates may visibly extend beyond their placement bounds and may overlap slightly when placed together. I may adjust the visible meshes in the near future, but these are fine for now as placement and collision is proper.

Regarding Patios: If you mean the mason floor in the screenshot, something like this can be easily done with the revised system. Walls align with their centers to floor edges. Floors slide under and in between trusses.

Regarding an 'expandable frame': This is a 'Cantilever Truss', which is already on the Test Server being tested.

Regarding posts: The collision and placement bounds for all posts are 4m high. The visible meshes may extend beyond the bounds, but for construction purposes only the placement bounds are used. Stacking columns to create interior spaces of any height is easy with the new system.

With this update players will be able to:

- Sink parts into the ground to create sidewalks and steps from platforms, low walls and fences, sunken columns and other situations.
- Stack floors and 2m high platforms in addition to all 4m high parts.
- Build ramps and platforms inside frames.
- Actually stack parts on floors rather than placing objects within each other at the same height level.
- Build interior spaces of any height easily that can have room parts inside the interior spaces.
- Build from ground up (which makes sense!) This allows for adding stories without restarting (which as I understand is not possible with the current trick methods).
- Renovate without tearing down.

Maximum spans are currently 8m but will increase to 16m with a second update (with new parts).

Bridges will be easy to build at any height.
Trees houses will be easy to build but will require some minimal visible supports.
474
As an example I've attached a simple bridge rendering using 8m cantilevers that will be part of the second update. It also uses fence parts (that will be included) as rails. Something like this will be easy to build over any river or gorge, by using base posts under the trusses.

In my opinion this will look much better than a simple row of floating platforms.

I've already seen a few things built with ease on the Test Server that I've never seen on the Main Servers.

[Mactavendish]

Thank you for that info Xsyon, It really will help people to see what can be done.

I look forward to the patch very much as you are aware!

Oh, one thing I did notice you cannot use the scavenger board roof ( the flat topped one that can slide under easy now ), to support anything as its a roof. I doubt I will ever use it again now, since a truss will be cleaner looking. Had thought to use it as an awning around the edges of other structures like apartments, but with its rough uneven looks I would rather use cantilevers now.

Still trying to see how I can use a corner wall on anything but the ground, since it needs to be supported... May have to do more testing

[Xsyon]

To Mactavendish:

You should still be able to use the scavenger roof as awnings and I'll be adding more roof parts based on the current parts with a near future patch (by request).

As for the corner walls, they can be off the ground supported by regular, corner, cantilever corner trusses or posts. Here's an example of a corner wall off the ground. In the background there is a corner floor on a regular truss.

This is just a preview of what will be possible as more parts are in the works allowing for players to build with flexibility and ease.


.475

[Pwnuts]

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3910/g8qk7we7_png.htm
was not about the floor. the floor is currently in a position everyone could simply move it. the wall and the gate are under a roof, which is not possibile without dropping. thats what i meant.
thanks for the response

[Bejaymac]

Skill capped atm so can't check, but I don't think you can do that with an 8x8 roof, however you can do it with 4 4x4 roofs and with relative ease.

[Xsyon]

To Pwnuts:

Walls can be inserted inside 8x8m frames and roofs at the 4m line. Here's an example from my test projects.

476

[Xsyon]

This is an example of what can built using trusses and 4x8m cantilevers that will be patched out in the second building update.

This was built without moving any dirt or building any additional temporary ramps. I did build temporary floors in the truss towers to help me construct this. This spans more than a homestead in width. It's a work in progress, but shows off a bit of what's to come!

The second image uses a truss that was original part of a bridge truss piece (never patched out). Trusses like this will also be part of the second building update.


477478

[Pwnuts]

To Pwnuts:

Walls can be inserted inside 8x8m frames and roofs at the 4m line. Here's an example from my test projects.

476


i can see that the pioneer walls on this picture does not fit yet, is it taken before you changed it or is it still like this?

[Xsyon]

To Pwnuts:

Do you mean the outer pioneer walls? Those are correctly placed. Walls align with their centers on the edge of a floor, truss or roof. This allows for a tighter fit of walls around a floor or roof than on the main servers (using normal building methods on the main servers).

Aesthetically, some roof parts may be revised to have a larger overhang over walls in the future.

[Pwnuts]

yes i do, the edges / outer corners of the combos gate+log wall III / log wall I + Log wall III do not fit. if you just look at the wooden blanks/logs, they are not succinctly. i know the height of the walls are the same but the walls look diffrent. would be nice if they would be succinctly ith each other

[Drevar]

More of a UI thing than building, but it does affect this mechanic:
Could the move tool "widget" be made to allow changing its position..as it sits square in the middle of the screen it many times blocks the view of pieces you are trying to maneuver into place.

Also, I am wondering how the ability to lower walls into the ground will affect LOS with creatures (especially ranged weapons), and at what "height" from ground level will they simply be able to step over or get hung up on.

[Bejaymac]

Drevar it can be moved, just below the left and right arrows is an area you can grab with the left mouse button.