03/24/2015 - Trading Post Feedback - Test Server

[Xsyon]

Hello Xsyon Citizens!

The Test Server is open for testing an upcoming feature: Trade with tribes beyond the mist.

Here is how is works:

1) Select a complete building (such as a tent or teepee) and choose Assign Use from the drop down menu.

2) Assign the Trading Post use to the building. This is similar to assigning the current Commissary use.

3) When a building is assigned as a Trading Post, you can see and select Trade as the top most selection from its use menu. Selecting Trade will open a panel similar to the Trade Totem Panel.

4) On a regular schedule, the Trading Post will be populated with schemes, patterns and blueprints from a specific 'tribe' that you are trading with. (For example Bamati, Pioneer or Mason tribe). Prices will be in dollars and should match or exceed current going rates for similar items.

5) Some schemes will be available only through Trading Posts and at high prices. This should create a use for veteran players with hoarded dollar bills.

6) Unsold items will be cleared out on a regular basis.

7) Signs denoting the Trading Post and Commissary functions now appear attached to buildings with assigned uses.

8) Homesteads will not be allowed to place a Trading Post. This feature will be available for tribes of band size and above. Larger tribes will have their Trading Posts updated with new items more frequently.

For testing only:

1) Homesteads can currently assign one Trading Post.

2) Trading Posts are updated once per game day.

3) Trading Posts are limited to 20 items at a time.

4) You are currently trading with the Bamati tribe only, with a limited selection of available trade items.

Next up:

1) Players will be able to choose what tribe they are currently trading with. This will determine the type of items being traded.

2) Proper update times, items listed and prices will be set based on feedback.

Please post feedback on the following:

1) Do you encounter any bugs or problems with the system as is?

2) What do you think price ranges should be for schemes, patterns and blueprints?

3) How often do you think traders should 'visit' the trading posts?

4) How much time do you think items should remain unsold in the Trading Post before being automatically removed?

[millsdo]

Excellent! Love the idea of this....

[Bejaymac]

Sigh yet again the solo player gets screwed, either make all features available to all players or stick them where the sun don't shine :mad:

[millsdo]

I'm a solo player and it's not getting screwed. I see it as a reason to get out and explore and visit other tribes.

1) I did not encounter any problems.
2) The high end schemes should be $15,000 or more. IHMO. $10,000 as a minimum.
3) I think the traders should visit twice per real life day.
4) It seems like to me that 3-4 real life days would suffice for recycling things.

[Bejaymac]

What's the closest tribe to your Euin toon that is large enough to add a trading post, will they let you in to access it, that's assuming Jordi hasn't set it to only be usable by tribe members.

For me in 904 that might be Sierra Nevada in 903, but they are in the middle of building and I don't know if they have enough members yet to count, otherwise I have to head to the lake and visit the VR.

Now that's no problem for me as I run that road often enough, but a lot of the players in game don't even use the global chat, many of whom just don't want to interact with other players, so forcing them to "interact" could drive them away from the game.

Then there's the "favoritism" towards large tribes, not sure if Jordi's been watching but we are losing more and more of them, three have gone in the past couple of months, and some of the rest are pretty much on "life support".


Suggestion:-

Jordi you already have a system in place that this could work with, the trade totem, just add a new tab to every one in game, that way players can access it no matter how far from home they are.

[thurgond]

I could not find a limit to the number of trade buildings that could be set up (stopped at around 20).

I do not see a need for this feature at all. It will kill what little trade there is between players. Generally the only trade for blueprints. (Carts don't wear out at all and armor is really slow to take damage.) I just sold a few armor schemes, and that was the first time I was able to do that in 3-4 real world years. Generally the only way I can make money for the totem upkeep is to scavenge for schemes other people might want. This will lower the value of those schemes at whatever the price is set by the Mist tribes. Players will just wait for the convenience of a rare scheme showing up for sale in their borders rather than checking if another player has it for sale.

It's a money sink where none is needed.

If the Mist Traders would buy things, and then only sell those things at a big markup, that would be better, but would still distort the economy as everyone would soon have everything they need. You could sell duplicates and useless schemes (e.g. Master Scrapper Leather tools) to get the money to fill in gaps.

There are lots of things on the development list that would add to the game, while this is a game killer for me as I will soon be unable to pay tribe upkeep.

[wastelandstoic]

I agree with Thurgond on ONLY one point: I think a max of one trading post should exist in any tribe. That or regardless of how many you place they all show the same list anywhere in tribe (which would be nice).

I also really like this purposed feature! I think it will help to relieve players who get frustrated with not being able to find things they want to build and leave the game.

I do agree with the sentiment that homesteads should be able to have both commissaries and a trading post. As there are many more people playing in single/ small groups than there are people playing in large tribes. But, at the same time you want to give incentives for people to grow their tribes. In this particular instance I'd say find another way to give that incentive and open both these structures to everyone.


1) I'll try to check it out tonight.

2) Schemes & patterns: $200-$400, Blueprints: floors/post/fences/tents- $1500, walls/ramps/platforms- $3000, roofs/gates/canopies- $6000, New BP's- $10,000 (after 6-8 months real time the New category would remain for future new BP's but all current new BP's would drop into the $6k category).

3) Once every 24 hrs. (real time) seems ok.

4) For simplicity sake this could happen at the same time the trading post is revisited, once every 24hrs. (Or whatever interval is decided)

-Or assuming 20 items is the max that can ever be for sale at one time. Have empty slots repopulated once every game day. Have all 20 slots refreshed when the trade post is revisited once every 24 hrs.

[Dabent]

5) Some schemes will be available only through Trading Posts and at high prices. This should create a use for veteran players with hoarded dollar bills.
8) Homesteads will not be allowed to place a Trading Post. This feature will be available for tribes of band size and above. Larger tribes will have their Trading Posts updated with new items more frequently.
1) Players will be able to choose what tribe they are currently trading with. This will determine the type of items being traded.
See #8 above

Sigh yet again the solo player gets screwed, either make all features available to all players or stick them where the sun don't shine :mad:

If you have been here since beta and have huge tribe your good. Hell even if you HAD a big tribe at some point but only have 1 paying sub your good. But those of us that are a bit newer are screwed (or pony up the cash for 4 more accts).
We could by chance, on some rare occasion, sell something in chat. That will now be an even less likely possibility. Some of us do not want to be in a big tribe but still want to trade. For a "player driven game" this update seems like the complete opposite of that. Why not just tie our trade totems together? Let the players drive the economy?

[Whorlok]

I think those Trading Post is a nice idea!
But for all Player i accept with DABENT!..it destroys the Player trading! All Player are only waiting on her Trading Post for good things.
But those idea is only perfect for Points of interest or GM EVENTS or constant Player Events!
ALL PLAYER(new or old) must doing anything to become Access to those TRADING POST!
Make those building the same as a campfire!..But...make the farming more interesting.we Need more the farming endproduct!
- they must put in this Slot "Potato..or Carrots" to activate a timer.
- If the put in the Slot 10 Potato...Carrot (and so on)the timer is 1 Minute.
- if the put in the Slot 100 Potato then it is 10 minutes.
- and if they put in a second Slot a other Food as in the first Slot the can Change the rate of actually the tradepost

or make this a GM Building if a Player/GM wanted make a ongoing Event!...Players are willing now to make the events

[millsdo]

I think he has much bigger plans and this is just a first step. I like the idea. I am a solo player and have been since 2011. I don't want to be part of a large tribe but I do want to interact with other people in game. After all, it's an MMO. I do have several toons but there are large tribes near all of them.

[Xsyon]

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you for the comments. This is what these feedback threads are for and this is why I request feedback before changes like this are patched out.

I'd like to explain the goals behind the Trading Post and other upcoming building uses.

One of the biggest issues in game is the lack of active community locations. Trade and quest totems are too spread out and difficult for players to find and use. Global chat can make the game feel more alive, but without locations for players to actually run into each other, the game can feel quite deserted even during active times.

Large tribes are meant to be active community and trade centers that bring new and old players physically together.

My plan to make this happen includes the following:

- Add building uses including Trading Posts, Infirmaries, Hall of Fame and Hall of Legends (where you can view leader and achievement boards), Taverns (where you can ‘hear rumors’ of legendary creature locations) and other building uses. Larger tribes would be allowed more building uses and should become centers of activity.

- Allow tribes that meet specific minimum requirements in terms of active Trade Totems, Quest Totems and building uses to set up a Welcome Station for new players. Welcome Stations would replace the current new player spawn locations. New players would then have guaranteed easy access to both items they may need and quests.

- Allow players to have a homestead and an active tribe membership. This would allow current homesteaders to join together and create new tribal community centers or join existing tribes where they would use the additional facilities.
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Next I will clarify a few things:

1) There will be a maximum of one Trading Post per tribe. The limit needs to be set up correctly.

2) One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.

3) Trading Posts are in no way intended to replace player trade. Items will be limited and prices will be high. They are intended for players willing to pay high prices to get schemes they want, rather than grind for them. It should give players an incentive to sell more regular items to afford these items.

4) Trading Posts are not intended solely for the tribe’s use.

5) I am open to allowing Trading Posts at homesteads, however:
- Visiting traders would come more often to trading posts at larger tribes.
- I would prefer to allow this after more building uses are in play. Then homesteads could be allowed one or two uses, while larger tribes could set up buildings with all uses. This would allow homesteaders to run a tavern or trading post (for example), while large tribes would still server as principal activity hubs.

6) I have been considering allowing tribes to invite individual allies (in addition to allied tribes). This might be redundant once tribes are allowed a homestead and a tribe membership.

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Next, I’ll respond to specific concerns and suggestions.

1) ‘Many players don’t use global chat and don’t want to interact with other players.’ Yes, I realize this. However, Xsyon is an MMO and there are also many more players that leave the game immediately because of the lack of player interaction. While solo play is welcome and should be unhindered, the real focus for most players should be building a community.

2) ‘Favoritism towards large tribes.’ There should be an incentive for players to join large tribe and to use their buildings! Without the incentive, we get what you’ve already said is happening – large tribes deserting the game. I believe that allowing players to have a homestead and a tribe membership will provide the ‘best of both worlds’ scenario and I am moving in that direction.

3) ‘Trading posts would kill current trade.’ I disagree. Thurgond’s comments bring up some very interesting issues that need to be addressed.

- Currently players only trade for blueprints. Why is this? What is stopping players from selling basic tools, materials and food to new players?

I know there is a high demand for these items.
I know that there is a high supply for these items. Veteran players could easily set up totems with the basic necessities that new players want and need.

So where is the disconnect? Why isn’t this happening? I think there are several underlying issues:

- Trade totems are too spread out and not easy to find for new players. New players need to start off at active community and trade centers.

- Dollar bills don’t have enough value for veteran players. I think that giving these players something special to buy from time to time (via Trading Posts) will create a demand for these long term players to sell more varied goods and collect cash.

4) ‘A money sink is not needed.’ This could be its own topic for discussion as I’ve received conflicting feedback regarding this. It’s interesting to hear this though.

5) ‘Mist traders should buy things.’ Sorry, but I disagree. I have two short term goals with the Trading Post feature: To provide a use for dollar bills and to provide a better alternative to scavenging for schemes to enter the game. There is no need to inject more dollar bills into circulation.

6) ‘Why not tie trade totems together?’ This is something I have considered before. However, this gives players even less incentive to come together and encourages them to sit at their homesteads and deal with everything remotely.

Once players have a homestead and tribe membership, hopefully they will sell their items at the tribe totem rather than their own personal totem. I could also allow players to remote place sales from their home totem so that those sales also appear at their tribe totem. We’ll see, but there are better solutions than having all trade totems together.

7) Thurgond’s concern about not being able afford upkeep. In your specific case, you have a large tribe, thus the large upkeep. You will be able to place a Trading Post. Rather than scavenging for schemes to sell, you will be able to influence the type of schemes you get through the Trading Post, buy them and sell them marked up to other players. With other building uses on the way, you could soon set up an activity center and welcome station and sell all kinds of desirable items to new players.

8) ‘There should be other incentives for players to grow tribes.’ Could you give some examples? I think that building uses are a good incentive with the focus being on building active community centers that players use physically.

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I hope that this answers everyone’s concerns and questions and changes some your perspectives. The Trading Post is just one small step towards encouraging active community centers in game, which is very much needed.

I would appreciate all feedback regarding amounts of items available and prices so that this is a well-balanced feature. I think prices should be high, but also could vary from time to time to assist traders who want to buy at the trading post in order to sell to other players at a profit.

Thanks!

[millsdo]

Excellent post Jordi. That's a well thought out vision IMHO.

[Pax_Ratlin]

2) One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.

Personally I disagree, totally, I'm sure if you can afford to buy a blueprint at over inflated prices, then you can afford to purchase the blueprint off other players ... the problem here is the difficulty of letting others know what's on your shopping list



4) Trading Posts are not intended solely for the tribe’s use.

I would suggest a regular check to see if the Trading Post can be accessed from off the tribes land, if not the Trading Post ceases to function until access can be reopened.



5) I am open to allowing Trading Posts at homesteads, however:
- Visiting traders would come more often to trading posts at larger tribes.
- I would prefer to allow this after more building uses are in play. Then homesteads could be allowed one or two uses, while larger tribes could set up buildings with all uses. This would allow homesteaders to run a tavern or trading post (for example), while large tribes would still server as principal activity hubs.

Personally I wouldn't want to see trading posts at homesteads, and I'm a solo player, but to me it just doesn't make logical sense why would a tribe from beyond the Mist open a trading post at a one man homestead?



5) ‘Mist traders should buy things.’ Sorry, but I disagree. I have two short term goals with the Trading Post feature: To provide a use for dollar bills and to provide a better alternative to scavenging for schemes to enter the game. There is no need to inject more dollar bills into circulation..

Again I disagree, earlier you ask why only blueprints are bought and sold, but here you only add to the problem in my opinion, we have an opportunity to create a demand for resources here, if Trading posts act as Quest Totems as well ... in the sense that you can sell resource x,y or z to the trading post (for dollar bills) in quantities of a, b or c until the trading post hits a limit, which resources and what the limits are should change from game season to season, so demand for meat during the winter would be greater, basic grass, cloth and leather goods greater in the summer etc etc etc

[wastelandstoic]

1) Do you encounter any bugs or problems with the system as is?

No problems designating, accessing and buying from a trading post. I set up 6 or so while testing them. But, of the 6 I set up 5 had only one pattern (no schemes, no BP's) while one had 2 patterns..? I thought they would have 20 different selections and a percentage of those (assumed around 10-25%) would be BP's.

[wastelandstoic]

8) ‘There should be other incentives for players to grow tribes.’ Could you give some examples? I think that building uses are a good incentive with the focus being on building active community centers that players use physically.

My initial understanding of the trading post was that they would only be usable by the members of a tribe that set them up. It sounds like they can be open to anyone who wanted to stop by, so that in effect does make them usable by everyone in the game regardless of their own tribe size ---sounds good.

As far as other incentives I did not have any particular ones in mind at the time but, I've always thought that 'buffs' similar to the ones that can be set through the totem (to skills) would be a nice incentive for growing tribes. i.e.: the larger the tribe the higher the buff to skills and other additional buffs to hunting, fishing, gathering --even building (a no hunger/thirst penalty for a certain time period would really be nice) could be offered.

[Dabent]

It is quite a run for us from 782 to the nearest large tribe. We like our place, we do not want to move, we have 4 (3 paying) members, do not really want more (there is no room for them to build, farm,tera, etc). Now it would be worth a run/swim to founders every day to check a global trading post that had players selling stuff. The idea of buying from NPCs (at inflated prices) just doesn't, for me, go with the spirit of a "sandbox" game.

I guess this update isn't for us. Hope it works out for all the rest of you. until then.

[Xsyon]

One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.


Personally I disagree, totally, I'm sure if you can afford to buy a blueprint at over inflated prices, then you can afford to purchase the blueprint off other players ... the problem here is the difficulty of letting others know what's on your shopping list

The Trading Post should still be a less tedious alternative to scavenging or grinding to introduce desired recipes into the game.

I agree with your comment. Players that could afford a blueprint from a trading post could afford to buy the same from other players. Yet, according to the game data, trades like this are happening very rarely. At the same time players are grinding crafts or scavenging extensively to gain one specific recipe.

Why? I have heard and observed a few reasons for this.

- Players that do have the schemes to sell, don't need dollar bills (or anything else). This seems to be the core issue.

- Finding what is for sale and where is too difficult (what you mentioned). Players could be building trade centers right now, placing trade totems at an allied tribe and listing sales for nearby ally totems, but it seems that the incentive for players to do this is too low.

- Some players just don't want to trade and want to do everything for themselves.

The Trading Post works towards the first issue. If special items (new schemes for example) that high level players want are available only through Trading Posts in exchange for dollar bills, it creates a demand for dollars that should trickle down.

Building active community centers through building uses (which the Trading Post is just a first step towards) works towards the second issue. Once active community centers are established, and new players spawn at these centers, trade totems at these centers should become more active.


Again I disagree, earlier you ask why only blueprints are bought and sold, but here you only add to the problem in my opinion, we have an opportunity to create a demand for resources here, if Trading posts act as Quest Totems as well ... in the sense that you can sell resource x,y or z to the trading post (for dollar bills) in quantities of a, b or c until the trading post hits a limit, which resources and what the limits are should change from game season to season, so demand for meat during the winter would be greater, basic grass, cloth and leather goods greater in the summer etc etc etc

Regarding blueprints: They seem to be in much higher demand than they are being sold, which is one reason why they make sense to me as items to be available through the Trading Post.

Regarding creating a demand for resources: Well, this is one of the issues I'm trying to resolve. There already is a demand for resources as there is a demand for simple items. There is a demand for food, components and tools. New players need these things.

There is just not enough reason for the players with the supply to sell these as there is not enough demand for dollar bills and there is a need for active starting locations that have these items for sale.

Trading Posts create an additional demand for dollar bills. Once Trading Posts are set up, items that high level players would be willing to spend their hoarded up dollars on can be introduced through them. (Let's say, for example: cosmetic items or vanity pets).

This is veering off into a general discussion on the game economy. I will start a thread on that when I have the time to fully present information and listen to player input.

The Trading Post is just one building use of many (that's always been planned). It's an easy one for me to set up so I'm working on it first. It won't have a great impact on the game right now, but it does set up a use for dollar bills stored up by veteran players and it's just one step towards creating active community centers.

[Xsyon]

But, of the 6 I set up 5 had only one pattern (no schemes, no BP's) while one had 2 patterns..? I thought they would have 20 different selections and a percentage of those (assumed around 10-25%) would be BP's.

Trading Posts populate slowly, a few recipes per update. 20 is just the current limit.

Right now for testing only there is a very limited selection of schemes. Once the full tables are patched out I will post here and update the main post in this thread.

[Xsyon]

It is quite a run for us from 782 to the nearest large tribe. We like our place, we do not want to move, we have 4 (3 paying) members, do not really want more (there is no room for them to build, farm,tera, etc). Now it would be worth a run/swim to founders every day to check a global trading post that had players selling stuff. The idea of buying from NPCs (at inflated prices) just doesn't, for me, go with the spirit of a "sandbox" game.

That's understandable. If you could join a larger tribe and keep a homestead, would you do so?

If there was a closer large tribe, would you use their facilities?

With the coming building use updates and allowing players a homestead and a tribe, I am hoping there is enough incentive for several tribal centers to exist throughout the map so that all players have relatively easy access to them.

Point taken regarding what fits in a 'sandbox game'. Xsyon was conceived long before I had ever heard the term 'sandbox game'. It was partly inspired by Ultima Online, which did have NPC vendors.

Regular NPC vendors were never part of Xsyon's design, but 'trade with tribes beyond the mist' as a way of introducing some items into the game was. It was intended to be a bit different, with totems on the edge of mist, not in tribes, but the concept remains the same.

[Peanuts]

i'd like to see a charge for selling stuff, finally another way to remove dollars from the game. as long people do not loose dollars and they have no real use except the upkeep, they will never be accepted as currency by the community. trade totems do not remove them from the game, they just move them around.

yes vet players can stock tools and such to a trade totem but currently the overview at a trade totem is unbeliveable bad that i wont put any (imo) trash items in there which will make just more problems to find stuff ppl may look for.

[Dabent]

Will I use other tribes? If it is the only place to get certain BPs then *#&&@(! no!!!! Why you ask? If the only way to get cash is to scavenge for it then I should also have a chance to find these BPs also. Just on the fact that you are not letting the players dictate the economy is enough to show you what's between my index and ring finger. If I can't find or trade for them well that's just how it goes and I can live with out. You are adding something to the game that will ONLY help people who have been here for years. If I have no way to SELL things how to I get these 10s of thousands of dollars for a single print? How will I buy them? I wont. I will just accept that those who were here from beta get a bit more perks.

If your prices are $1000 for crap schemes that i have 100s of. Then I suppose your rare BPs will be so over priced it will not even be worth looking at. That is unless I'v been playing this game for years. So no I will most likely not use this and I think your time could be spent on better things. But what the hell do I know?

If you want to bring players together try a globe trade center where we can buy and sell things to from each other. Simple math tells us...If you have 100 people and you give them 5 places to come together then you will get 20 people at 5 places. Give them 2 places to come together you will have 50 at 2 places or all of them at ONE! But you have stated you have no desire in that kind of trade so...like I said before hope this update works out for the rest of you.

[millsdo]

Okay, first...the way he implemented this on the test server is not the final version. This is why he asked for input.

He asked for input on the prices and what they should go for. The way I understand it is that the schemes that would be offered would be very rare. Something like say an 8x8 Floor or 16x16 truss.

I have been in the game since the start. 4 years now. I sell my normal blueprints in architecture for $1000-$1500. I sell my gates for upwards of $5000. So, having a blueprint that is only available from beyond the mist sell for $10,000 is a steal in my opinion.

You then say, "If you want to bring players together try a globe trade center where we can buy and sell things to from each other."

This is exactly his goal! Making hubs around the maps that bring people together.

In other words, this is the way he has chosen to bring folks together and I for one like it.

[Xsyon]

i'd like to see a charge for selling stuff, finally another way to remove dollars from the game. as long people do not loose dollars and they have no real use except the upkeep, they will never be accepted as currency by the community. trade totems do not remove them from the game, they just move them around.

yes vet players can stock tools and such to a trade totem but currently the overview at a trade totem is unbeliveable bad that i wont put any (imo) trash items in there which will make just more problems to find stuff ppl may look for.

Trading Posts would remove dollars from the game. As I stated above:


The Trading Post works towards the first issue. If special items (new schemes for example) that high level players want are available only through Trading Posts in exchange for dollar bills, it creates a demand for dollars that should trickle down.

Special items don't need to be only schemes. They can be future vanity or cosmetic items at high prices, for example. The goal is to create a use to take dollars out of the game and give the players something positive in return.

By the 'overview at a trade totem' you mean that the trade totem panel is difficult to search, correct? I can certainly add functions to better search and sort items on a trade totems.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Xsyon]

To Dabent:

I'm a bit confused by your feedback.

I ask if tribes would create activity / trade centers would you use them, and you say no. You then ask for a globe trade center.

In my opinion, players should create the trade and activity centers. Ideally these should be around the map at locations selected by players, not by me. If this becomes 5 places with 20 people or 2 places with 50, it should be up to players. Both situations are fine as long as these are hubs of activity.

Players do have the tools to do this. Currently you can place a trade totem at an allied tribe location. A large tribe could host trade totems from all nearby homesteads and smaller tribes and create an active center. This was tried before, but in general it's not happening because there is not enough incentive for tribes to do this. Adding uses for dollars and additional reasons for players to visit larger tribes such as building uses creates this incentive.

I am against the idea of connecting all trade totems and allowing players to sit in their homesteads and trade because that does nothing to bring players physically together.

You state:
If I have no way to SELL things how to I get these 10s of thousands of dollars for a single print?

Getting to core issues like this is the reason we have these feedback threads. Why do you say you have no way of selling things? Is it because your tribe is too remote for players to find your trade totem and buy items? What is preventing you from placing a trade totem at a nearby tribe and being part an active trade center?

Regarding the prices for schemes: Prices haven't been set. I am asking in this thread for players to determine fair prices. If you have feedback on what you think prices should be, please post.

I do appreciate the input. Thanks!

[Dabent]

I meant no to NPC "crafted" items. They do not craft them. They do not grind and grind for them. They do not scav and scav for them.....They are NPCs!! (Just a rant) I just do not think you should introduce NPC anything into this game. It is better than that :p If that is the only place to get certain BPs then I most likely will never buy one of those prints just on stubborn principles. I like the the RP part of this game way to much. Trade center/general store....Fits in to realness of this game. A magical tribe...Not so much. (for me)

Sure I can and have used the totems that are up now (we sell a few things from time to time). My experience shows it does not matter if I live in the green mist or next to Baby's place not much sells. I have put a totem at a larger trade center. Most of the totems are empty or low populated and rarely have new stuff. I would like a place to browse items and wears that all the other players have crafted. Let the players scav and scav and scav to find the new rare prints or grind out the schemes. Let the players then dictate the prices. Let us buy it at 1 central place then have to go pick it up. I then meet up with people at the 1 (or 2, one in the north one south?) trade center AND I have to go to someone else's place at pick it up. The trade center can becomes a place to barter also. Maybe a sign post/quest totem for bartering and or leaving messages. It also can become a place we all gather to show off our goods.

I just think it is more likely to get us together at one place than try to create a bunch of different ones. We have that to a degree now. I also do not think we should be able to buy from our totems just the 1 or 2 places somewhere you find appropriate.
I am also just a disabled electrician so don't listen to me I almost never now what the hell I'm talking about.

[Peanuts]

By the 'overview at a trade totem' you mean that the trade totem panel is difficult to search, correct? I can certainly add functions to better search and sort items on a trade totems.


categories which you can turn on/off would be nice. like: crafting skills, quality range where you can add numbers, same for durability, and for sure a search bar to find exactly what ppl looking for.

if we gone have NPC's soon we could have a NPC for gambling maybe? it would remove items from the game as well. lets say i can give 10 blueprints to a npc and get a random blueprint back, that would be a nice option. especially for the stacks of cart prints which will never find a use.

[wastelandstoic]

Nice idea.

Chopper Joe's tent of iniquity, enter at your own risk. We trade only in blue prints --in our favor!

[Dabent]

if we gone have NPC's soon we could have a NPC for gambling maybe? it would remove items from the game as well. lets say i can give 10 blueprints to a npc and get a random blueprint back, that would be a nice option. especially for the stacks of cart prints which will never find a use.

Now there's an idea I can get behind! Gambling away the goods on hopes of better goods. Some will win some will lose.

[Peanuts]

sure BPs are rare, but you guys JJ and Cpt are scavenging a lot and you should know that cart prints drop at the same rate but have no value. the camble maybe can be used for other items as well, it would be a chance to remove high stocks from old tribes which would help the economy as well, since items wil get back a value maybe.

[Bejaymac]

I think one of the problems is that players expect to find a similar setup regardless of what game they play.

Many expect to be UBER Elite and have the best gear in a couple of weeks, either through power leveling, exploits or cash shop. They arrive here and find they will have to spend months grinding just to get their stats close to that of a vet, and that's without having the gear to match.

They also expect a player driven economy that they can try to exploit and control (and make an ass of just like they do in the real world). Here they find nothing, not even an NPC they can sell the crap they find too.

Then there's global chat, in most games you see a constant stream of chat in it, even if it is all gold sellers, spammers and idiots talking religious and racial garbage. Here we don't have any of that so the lack of chat does make the place look dead, but if you strip out all of the crap from the other games you find their chat isn't much better.
You also have the problem that many players actively avoid global thanks to their experiences with other games, even to point of turning the channel off.

This imho is why so many leave without giving the game a chance, Xsyon is too different from the other games they play.


Currently players only trade for blueprints. Why is this? What is stopping players from selling basic tools, materials and food to new players?Could it be because new players don't have any dollars to buy anything with.

Most tribes use a barter system so players can get stuff in exchange for granite/sand/nails etc, some even just give them the gear.


The Trade Post is something I'll probably never use, I have most of the architect BPs I want and my place is more or less finished, cart BPs I don't really need, I have over 20 carts as it is and I can make a 5 slotter, and with the Crafting skills I can inspire everything I need.
Now as for pricing take a look at this post (http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/9282-The-Walking-Dead-Tribe-Price-List-and-Exchange-Rates), their prices are considered to be competitive.

[Peanuts]

this guys do not even play anymore and the prices are not really a basement. even if most of them was (imo) fair.

why are blueprints the currency? i think ppl expect to build in this game and the part of surviving is not even there. you can startve, you can die of thirst, you can be killed by a critter, but thats all. you should have more options whit the stuff we already have ( animals do not close to campfires, campfires hurt players if they cross them, wandering revenants who attack player during night, or simply stuff which is left in the apocolypse like mines, traps, radioactive zones ( not just ourside the world ), there are lots which can be used to increase the survival aspect.

BP's are "not" hard to find. i was spending about 5h with 2 mates in 1 junkpile, we figured there are "at least" 32 diffrent BPs, 6 of them are new BPs. we found over 50 in this time which is not a low rate for 5h*3.

about the leaving player.. i think currently for a new player its "way to much" in the beginning. he want to craft something and recognize he need 3 tools, 1st a hammer, not to hard to make but for a new player already a effort of 15minutes maybe to figure where to get everything. 2nd a saw, he maybe give up after 1h searching for components, 3rd nvm anymore.

the current Tutorial is useless, nobody buy a microweaver and read the book about it, everyone just conect the cable and check how it works. same in the game, nobody want to read this tutorial, a tutorial with a reward system where you really have to do things, and get the items a starter have in the backpack step by step, also learn how to use them would help a lot! i cant tell if this would be even possible in this game to script, but founders island would offer enough space to build such a free running.
most players who use global will get recruit offers, join a tribe, get a role in new players tribe they maybe dont like or wont be part of the community in a vet players tribe couz there is a group of ppl who do stuff together and a newb is not able to go for this. ( doesnt mean i'm doing that with any new player, i just saw it a lot in another place name i wont call here ).

the tradepost is not neccesairy imo, but whenever jordi decides to implement something he will do, its his game and nobody will change this. in a world where we have to start at zero with gathering and crafting, a npc which puts items to the game is not really a good idea, doesnt matter what he sells.

as i always said, i rather see stuff fixed and working which we already have, instead of new stuff which cause new issues and time to get it running perfect. i understand that the arc stuff was needed to fix the animal behavour, but right now i would like to see combat and mobs are working well, maybe even perfect - couz this is something 90% of the players are interested in new same as old.

[wastelandstoic]

BP's are "not" hard to find. i was spending about 5h with 2 mates in 1 junkpile, we figured there are "at least" 32 diffrent BPs, 6 of them are new BPs. we found over 50 in this time which is not a low rate for 5h*3.

As far a BP's and their acquisition/ rarity in game goes I think that mileage certainly varies.

I have only ever spent 5-6 hours scavenging once in the whole time I've played. As a casual player I have played in groups of 1-3 hours at a time. On the weekends I might be in game for 3-6 hours. My experience scavenging has been mixed. I have never gotten the BP's I wanted from scavenging. I have had to rely on tribe members and trading with others to collect the BP's I wanted to build with. Certainly not from grinding arch either (super low inspiration and very poor selection). I had a second account for a good while which was my primary scavenging account but scavenging is so random-- when all I really wanted was select BP's, cash and a few other items -- I gave up on acquiring them through scavenging and closed the account. I will certainly use the trading post feature (If it populates enough) to attempt to pick up those new and few remaining BP's that I'd like to have.


you should have more options whit the stuff we already have ( animals do not close to campfires, campfires hurt players if they cross them, wandering revenants who attack player during night, or simply stuff which is left in the apocolypse like mines, traps, radioactive zones ( not just ourside the world ), there are lots which can be used to increase the survival aspect.

I'm all for these kinds of additions but since it's primarily a one man show we wait and take what we can get.

[znaiika]

" Xsyon,
6) ‘Why not tie trade totems together?’ This is something I have considered before. However, this gives players even less incentive to come together and encourages them to sit at their homesteads and deal with everything remotely."

Unless, people can see what is for sale and where, and maybe even could reserve an item/s then travel to that location and make a trade.

As for blueprints as a currency, it's going to be same thing as it was with nails, and will change to some kind other resource as a currency later on, but will not change a thing only will limit something else.
Separate currency has to be in, other then resources, could be copper coins, silver coins, gold coins, dollars etc...
The thing is people collect resources then have no way to get rid of them in order to get what they need, this is a biggest problem with this economy.


I would suggest to add all resources to decay system much like food, that includes blueprints as well, "trade fresh with fresh" type of system.

[Mactavendish]

Ok...

After reading everyone's posts I think I will weigh in here.

Let's define a few terms really quick to start.

Player Interaction: Different players being in close proximity, or physically near by. ( Jordi repeatedly said he wants this )

Player Driven Content: Player made quests, player run trade hubs, crafting for money/items/gear, etc...

Player Economy: Players interacting with each other to provide or seek to have needs fulfilled, by means of currency or barter.


Now the problems are what Jordi outlined, but let me add that most players don't want to go through all the effort to make quests, or run events, or even run around to other tribes, because they have been trained by other games to expect their hands held, or items be easily gained, or to be able to "corner" a market. This game was not designed to be liek the other games out there and to me that's a very good thing.

The economy must be driven by needs and wants to continue functioning. What Our Dev is doing is working towards that goal and trying to help us learn to cooperate to create that economy. We as players need to work with what he is doing.

The survival aspect of this game is minimal atm that's true, mostly just food and drink, and the occasional animal you may need to avoid. Bringing in better animal AI to allow for them to attack your homestead, or shoot, even eat up your food, can only happen with him working on the AI and pathing issue like he is right now. What he is planning with the trade hubs and tribes beyond the mist is just part of a grander plan that we need to work with him on to make it happen.

SO, so May I suggest that we move beyond the bickering over our personal desires and look to the overall scheme, and give things a try, give constructive feedback, and see what we as the players can do to drive the content forward, rather then complain its not like some other game.

Btw tying the trade totems together does nothing to help bring us together or develop an economy. Allowing us to see on our trade totem that XYZ tribe has an item we need, so that we could go to that tribes location to buy or trade for it would in my mind encourage more players moving around the map to interact with players. But letting you buy from your local totem any item ( ie auction house style ) would destroy what Jordi is trying to do here.

[znaiika]

Btw tying the trade totems together does nothing to help bring us together or develop an economy. Allowing us to see on our trade totem that XYZ tribe has an item we need, so that we could go to that tribes location to buy or trade for it would in my mind encourage more players moving around the map to interact with players. But letting you buy from your local totem any item ( ie auction house style ) would destroy what Jordi is trying to do here.

I agree here.

[mush]

2) One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.


Why not alter scavanging, so scavenged items populate the bar similar to when you run under a tree and get branches,leaves, flint etc, this would allow you to select more of the items you are specifically looking for rather than constantly picking up items you dont want.
A different number of items could populate the bar depending on you scav level say 1 or 2 at low levels up to 5 at high levels but you can only select 1 item to pick up before moving on to next spot.

[GuideXaphan]

I like the idea Jordi, if we have these mist trade totems I think people will be more apt to browse the tribe totem while they are there and spend some money on something the tribe is selling that they might need.

I would personally keep it to large tribes as someone mentioned why would a trader plop a totem down at a homestead or hundreds of homesteads?

I know some people are saying they don't have large enough tribes nearby to make this something they would use but you would rather make the trip to founders if it was setup as a global trade center? That's a even longer trip and for most a good swim.

I would personally put tools and other small needed things on my trade totem if people came out of their way to my mist trade totem because I know they would at least browse my wares when they stopped by, currently I don't think they have much of a incentive to visit me no matter what I have for sell because it may be a little out of the way, or they have someone closer to do trades with. Growing communities is always a plus.

I think personally on my play account through the years of playing the game counting my tribes baskets of cash they have as well, all total we have nearly if not over 1 million dollars bills saved up that we don't burn on the totem or other things because they are not really worth while to really drop the cash on. The totem will get 2k bills dropped on it from time to time but not really that often unless I'm in the grinding mood.

I think it'll drop some money off players like myself buying bp's, schemes, and the like that I would want but I can also recoup some back from selling needed useful items players want or excess schemes/bp's I have no use for or have a massive surplus of and would like to sell for some more cash because money makes the world go round and I would need to offset spending on a mist trade totem as, yeah that is a lot of cash to have but we've had no reason to burn it. We also spent countless hours over years and years hording cash as it had no value but we knew it may one day as with a few other things people consider useless yet you never know when it will have a use. I say keep anything you scavenge for that very reason and sell off the excess to those that need or have a use for it.

Allowing tribes to take people in for crafting projects like architecture builds and the like could be another way to sink money to those that don't have enough. I've worked on other games for people gathering or building for the game currency. I wouldn't mind paying a player some determined amount to help on a project or gather a set amount of resources for me, and I've done trades for said resources before because I didn't have the time or the want to do it myself. The players that did gather things for me or mats always made out good but this was on the pvp server when we only had one server, so we had to be cautious with business dealings.

[Whorlok]

i aggree to Guide Xaphan,
This trade Totem is nice!...but:

Why not make this Tradetotem as a house/chest/totem for important Events or Points of Interest? Player must doing anything to come to those Tradetotems.
Tradetotem: random schemes and Random highend resources and only as a GM Item(chest) where only the GM can place. If Player wanted doing a Event it was perfect as a Goal to reach! (GM have also not so many work)
or POINTS OF INTEREST on the middle of the POI is this Totem!...Again...Player must doing Action to reach this.

in my head are thousand ideas for Player Event with those trade totem as a reward

[wastelandstoic]

Why not alter scavanging, so scavenged items populate the bar similar to when you run under a tree and get branches,leaves, flint etc, this would allow you to select more of the items you are specifically looking for rather than constantly picking up items you dont want.
A different number of items could populate the bar depending on you scav level say 1 or 2 at low levels up to 5 at high levels but you can only select 1 item to pick up before moving on to next spot.


Something along this line is what scavenging needs.

My thought was to link it with other skills where a player had reached high skill achievement status (at say 70, 80, or 90). For example if a player decided he wanted to be a bone crafter and has raised his bone craft to say 90. Then, when he goes scavenging a second scavenging button or menu would be available for use and the types of items that he could find would be skewed (by whatever percentage) to items useable in bone crafting. The same type of 'better chance' to find the items associated with said specialized skill could be available for ANY skill that player had raised to the determined skill level trigger (again, 70, 80, or 90).

In realistic terms someone who is a specialized (bone) crafter digging through a scrap pile will ignore all the random stuff --metal poles, BP’s and even dollar bills to concentrate on rubber soles, bones and rubber grips, etc. An architect; building mats and BP’s. A tailor; cloth, feathers and cloth patterns. A leatherworker; leather, leather patterns and soles…

Being able to find the things you want/need from scavenging would make it much more rewarding.

[MrDDT]

My belief is that first off, the mist trade totems should cost money for the tribe hosting them. More items you want listed from them, and more refreshes, the more money it will cost.
Then large or small tribes can host them and build up a trader location.
So build a "mist trade totem" and pay to have it updated and pay to have more items listed per update. Tribes will want this, to draw more people to their tribe area, and themselves.

Dollars do need a sink, massively. Currently the only sink is the tribal bonus totem, which needs to be increased by about 10x its so cheap.

Not sure why a guide is posting their opinions of their player feed back on their guide account but pretty much anything a guide posts saying how much xyz they have or how hard it is, goes out the window when as a guide you can port or spawn any item, and they have done.

Next major step needs to be done is remove death porting items around the map, along with reviewing the weight of items.

Next is all trade totems need to DISPLAY all items for sale at all trade totems and their locations. (Maybe with an option to opt out of displaying your totem).
It is way to hard for people to find the items or the relative prices of items they want. Many people I'm sure would sell common goods like, wooden handles or granite on a trade totem if they knew that people would see them. This doesnt hurt local trading, it promotes it. Because the items are still going to be valued at the cost vs distance. Knowing you can buy 1000 granite for 3$ each 1000m away or 1000 granite for 2$ 5000m away, will give people choices of which to buy based on distance and effort to get them. Yet still allow them to see relative pricing around the map.

Totem search options need to be better also, it's very hard to use the current trade totem.

Mist traders selling BPs is a good way to get many players involved in the trade market of them, but don't forget that it will not take long for new players and vets to no longer care about BPs because they will be pretty common. You must thing of ways of keeping vets also focused on these mist traders. I would say high end crafting mats. But again it poses another problem of why do people need to craft high end items.

These mist traders are a good idea, but after this I would start to think long term goals of players in game and what they are focusing on and why.
Survival is currently the newbie issue, but after a few days in game, players can survive very easy. Next would be what are their goals for playing the game. How do they effect the game as a whole?
Building wondrous building projects are currently the core to the game, but those do not take much of anything else other than BPs and some basic materials. What are people's goals after that or if they don't care much about just building?

[MrDDT]

Ok...

After reading everyone's posts I think I will weigh in here.

Let's define a few terms really quick to start.

Player Interaction: Different players being in close proximity, or physically near by. ( Jordi repeatedly said he wants this )

Player Driven Content: Player made quests, player run trade hubs, crafting for money/items/gear, etc...

Player Economy: Players interacting with each other to provide or seek to have needs fulfilled, by means of currency or barter.


Now the problems are what Jordi outlined, but let me add that most players don't want to go through all the effort to make quests, or run events, or even run around to other tribes, because they have been trained by other games to expect their hands held, or items be easily gained, or to be able to "corner" a market. This game was not designed to be liek the other games out there and to me that's a very good thing.

The economy must be driven by needs and wants to continue functioning. What Our Dev is doing is working towards that goal and trying to help us learn to cooperate to create that economy. We as players need to work with what he is doing.

The survival aspect of this game is minimal atm that's true, mostly just food and drink, and the occasional animal you may need to avoid. Bringing in better animal AI to allow for them to attack your homestead, or shoot, even eat up your food, can only happen with him working on the AI and pathing issue like he is right now. What he is planning with the trade hubs and tribes beyond the mist is just part of a grander plan that we need to work with him on to make it happen.

SO, so May I suggest that we move beyond the bickering over our personal desires and look to the overall scheme, and give things a try, give constructive feedback, and see what we as the players can do to drive the content forward, rather then complain its not like some other game.

Btw tying the trade totems together does nothing to help bring us together or develop an economy. Allowing us to see on our trade totem that XYZ tribe has an item we need, so that we could go to that tribes location to buy or trade for it would in my mind encourage more players moving around the map to interact with players. But letting you buy from your local totem any item ( ie auction house style ) would destroy what Jordi is trying to do here.


I agree fully with this post.

One of the key points as someone else already pointed out is that allowing players to see all listed items doesnt hurt bringing people together it helps, but allowing it to be bought from anyways and picked up at the same location you bought it (different from the stocked location) would hurt bringing people together.
It also removes a major part of what is intended in the game. Which is moving goods around the map. On the PVP server it's meant to be dangerous. On the PVE server, it doesnt have that but it still has the part where it creates local pricing and communities.

I think another major issue about the survival aspect is that there is no need for building to survive. Which should be one of the major reasons to build in a survival game.

[Anon386]

My main concern with this is that large tribes will lock or deny access in some way to their trade posts. I get that Xsyon wants to bring people together and it seems this plan does encourage such. What I think Xsyon is not anticipating is the selfishness of MMO players. There needs to be game mechanics in place to keep these type of attitudes in check.

I STRONGLY oppose the toll gate proposition. I'm biased as I prefer socials type setup. It's in the best interest of the community as a whole if individual players aren't allowed to hold important transportation route hostage.

edit...

The reason folks don't trade is simple.
Who, has what, for how much, and where? Make it easy and convenient for player to answer those questions and people will start trading more. I don't think it's a problem to travel and get things.

[MrDDT]

My main concern with this is that large tribes will lock or deny access in some way to their trade posts. I get that Xsyon wants to bring people together and it seems this plan does encourage such. What I think Xsyon is not anticipating is the selfishness of MMO players. There needs to be game mechanics in place to keep these type of attitudes in check.

I STRONGLY oppose the toll gate proposition. I'm biased as I prefer socials type setup. It's in the best interest of the community as a whole if individual players aren't allowed to hold important transportation route hostage.

edit...

The reason folks don't trade is simple.
Who, has what, for how much, and where? Make it easy and convenient for player to answer those questions and people will start trading more. I don't think it's a problem to travel and get things.

Tribes that lock up trade totems using my idea would have less funds to refresh them. Also any tribe that locks them up would make themselves less of a trade hub again hurting themselves. It is much better to have self defeating reasons for bad choices than hard-line codes in ways to stop it.

Yes of course travel is currently not a problem to pick up things because of death porting. No idea why death porting is still allowed in game it's one of the major reasons the Xsyon local economy is broken. Along with little money sink/drive.

[Anon386]

Tribes that lock up trade totems using my idea would have less funds to refresh them. Also any tribe that locks them up would make themselves less of a trade hub again hurting themselves. It is much better to have self defeating reasons for bad choices than hard-line codes in ways to stop it.

Yes of course travel is currently not a problem to pick up things because of death porting. No idea why death porting is still allowed in game it's one of the major reasons the Xsyon local economy is broken. Along with little money sink/drive.

I wasn't thinking about using death to shortcut the trip home. We could benefit from information so prospective buyers and sellers can more easily interact. Right now buyers can spend huge sums of time try to find something and likely will end up empty handed. Where as the sellers spend maybe 5 minutes stocking their trade totem outside a tribe.

After some thought, what I said about the information index (who, has what, where, how much) would make it much easier to solo and Xsyon doesn't seem to like that.

If Xsyon where to significantly boost a trade posts usefulness in proportion to the number of non-tribe or foreigners who trade at a tribes trade post it might work out. If ya block access to it, it becomes nearly useless. Now,if you open it up and also get your allies to stock trade totems in the immediate area a large tribe could benefit more.

[Mactavendish]

These comments about "Large Tribes" are very misleading to new players.

I am the leader of a tribe with lots of members on the books, We have over the max number of members to top out buffs, stat boosts and area. But the reality is that we have maybe 6 active players and not all those play daily. The population for this game is very small, and there are NO large tribes that have say 20 or 30 people running around doing things. Some will claim that, some will try and lure any new player in with claims of wonderous training and perks... however... none of that it true.

I mention this because any comment that relates to large tribes is non sequitur. We would love to become a trade hub on the west side of the lake, have setup for it and have everything in place, but the facts are that we can do everything for ourselves and the only real trading or selling it to new players needing basic tools or waterskins, or the occasional vet wandering by to buy cheap blueprints if they can.

What Jordi is doing is trying to set things up for future increases in population, and have the mechanics in place to allow us the players to develop and maintain an economy, and provide trading centers to draw players together.

So lets help him test these things out, give him feed back on things that wont work, and by all means comment on the mechanics he is testing so he can see what we feel about it. BUT... Stick to the facts folks.

Atm if we were to put up walls and have a toll bridge we would only make ourselves hated. If we try and draw any new players to us but have high prices on desired items to prevent vets from wiping out the stock, we again become worthless to the new players. For now all we can do is test and give feedback.

NOW... if there was a way to have items for sale ONLY to allies, then we could limit the vets from wiping out the stock, and help new players get what they need and make it unnecessary to raise prices. We would have to allow even solo players to ally with us to make this work. To me this would be the single most useful addition to trade totems.

[Taraniel]

Btw tying the trade totems together does nothing to help bring us together or develop an economy. Allowing us to see on our trade totem that XYZ tribe has an item we need, so that we could go to that tribes location to buy or trade for it would in my mind encourage more players moving around the map to interact with players. But letting you buy from your local totem any item ( ie auction house style ) would destroy what Jordi is trying to do here.

I agree completely. If I can see that a big tribe is selling something I want and/or need, I would not mind the long trek to part with my hard earned cash. Heck, I may even see a few more things for sale that I normally would not travel for but would buy just cause Im there. Problem is I don't want to swim to VR or trek miles to Pawnee not knowing what's up in their trade totems. So.. what I do now is occasionally, when I have the time and inclination, I visit totems randomly and once in a blue moon I get lucky.

Also, I am a Homesteader. I like to have my own little place. I would love the idea of being able to keep my little piece of land and still belong to a large tribe but so far, that is not possible. If it ever is, I for sure would find a large tribe who would take me in :D