Question to Xsyon aboout future development of the game and old features planned

[treyu]

I am an old player that left when things were still being fixed and improved. I was (and am) always willing to return when some crucial things were fixed, like combat desync which made PvP (and combat in general) wierd and even impossible to like, or the lack of healing and ranged combat. I have been following Xyson develpment weekly for a year (every new patch or thread in the development forum), and the "In development" section of the main page. There, you can see for months (years?) that healing, ranged combat, taming, mounts etc are planned but I never see them listed in testing or never introduced in patches for more than a year.

So, is there any info on how are those features going (healing, ranged combat, etc=? are they ever going to be implemented?

How is combat desync nowadays? how is pvp with that combat?

I also remeber, before servers were split into pve and pvp, that there was a planned feature of letting tribes be in war and conquer each others cities. is this still planned or all the focus is now onto pve features?

thanks in advance, some of my question could be answered if I downloaded the game and tried the trial, i know, but some are not so maybe someone or even Xsyon himself would like to answer.

[MrDDT]

Desync is still there, nothing has changed with combat since you left. No healing (other than food which you must stand still for 10 to 30 seconds to fill up 10% to 50% of your HP bar), and no ranged combat whatsoever.

No taming.
No mounts.

To be honest, if you are looking for the combat and pvp that I know you are. Xsyon will likely never be that game. Xsyon himself doesnt really seem to care about the PVP side of things. I think mostly he doesnt add these things because he doesnt want to have to deal with the drama and strife of people fighting.

Treyu what games you guys been playing lately? I'm been playing Archeage but mostly like it's farmville =P

[treyu]

Well, I am ok if those things I said are not going to be introduced, but listing them in the "In development" and "next round" of patches if they are not going to be developed is a bad thing, in my opinion, that is why I created this thread, to see if they are still planned and if not, why to show them in the development roadmap?

About what I play, Darkfall (waiting atm for them to introduce the last big patches this May and June, that will end with a free trial on September) and waiting for sandbox early access games like Tree of Life (check it on steam, it will release 27th May).

:) thanks for anwering

[MrDDT]

I will check it out.

What is in development is hard to answer really as a player. You know it is, he will say something is planned then get side tracked and never see it again =P

Remember Archery was all but in the game 3 weeks after release. haha

[treyu]

Yea, that is the thing, that the showed roadmap has nothing to do with the patches that are introduced monthly. If that is the case, Xsyon should inform the playerbase and the people waiting for some promised features to return that the plan has changed.

[Xsyon]

Hi Treyu,

Good to see you around. The In Development list is actually what I've been spending the majority of my time on since January.

In particular these:

Creature revisionsCombat revisions
Animal Taming
Pets
Mounts

The list needs slight revisions to display recent updates and building functions that are being released, but for the most part it's correct. The focus is still the creature revisions. I haven't thought of updating it as I have a lot on my plate and that page receives very little traffic.

I've been slightly side-tracked as the first important change to creature path finding required fixes that prevented the tricks players used to construct multi-story buildings. My choices were to continue with creatures and essentially completely remove multi-story building from the game or implement a proper multi-story system as originally planned and designed.

I chose to take a bit of time to implement a proper multi-story building system. It was the best decision I've made since the Prelude launch in terms of attracting new players.

The bulk of my time is still being spent on the above with simple updates going out as I do have down time waiting on assistance in cleaning up old creature code by the previous programmers (they are doing so on their own time right now).

I've been keeping players informed of what's going on in the Developer Updates (http://www.xsyon.com/blog.php/1?blogcategoryid=3)

--------------------------------------------------

Regarding desynch, this is a difficult issue to deal with due to different latencies between players from around the world. We have an open discussion on creature desynch here (http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/9304-02-06-2015-Creatures-Desynch). There is a good link explaining desynch on that thread. The biggest issue can be explained simply as this:

Imagine player 1 and player 2 are standing next to each other. For a message to travel to the server and to the other player it takes 250 ms.

Player 1 begins to sprint, at 10 m/s.

No matter what is coded, by the time the 'begin sprint' command reaches player 2, player 1 has already moved 2.5 meters. While positions can be predicted, starting or stopping motions can't.

Obviously this is problematic for 'twitch' combat.

Very early solutions to deal with this problem included targeted, not free swing, combat, reduced speeds and disabling running and sprinting while in combat mode. Players in general did not want those limitations and we implemented the current system a long time ago in response to what players desired.

To accommodate for latency issues, ranges will be increased with the current round of revisions even if they are not realistic. I'm always looking for better solutions but have not seen or been recommended an MMO with good twitch / free swing combat to check out. Most MMOs that I've checked out use the typical targeted and key press systems which I honestly don't like at all for melee combat.

--------------------------------------------------

Regarding PvP, some of the changes I'm working on will certainly affect PvP as well.

If I didn't care about PvP it would never have been part of the game, period. It is true that the drama often brought on by PvP players in the past few years has greatly diminished my enthusiasm for PvP. This was greatly reduced by adding the PvE server, which in retrospect should have launched day one. PvP will still continue to be improved over time and part of the game as intended.

I hope that answers your questions!

[treyu]

Hi Treyu,

Good to see you around. The In Development list is actually what I've been spending the majority of my time on since January.

In particular these:

Creature revisionsCombat revisions
Animal Taming
Pets
Mounts

The list needs slight revisions to display recent updates and building functions that are being released, but for the most part it's correct. The focus is still the creature revisions. I haven't thought of updating it as I have a lot on my plate and that page receives very little traffic.

I've been slightly side-tracked as the first important change to creature path finding required fixes that prevented the tricks players used to construct multi-story buildings. My choices were to continue with creatures and essentially completely remove multi-story building from the game or implement a proper multi-story system as originally planned and designed.

I chose to take a bit of time to implement a proper multi-story building system. It was the best decision I've made since the Prelude launch in terms of attracting new players.

The bulk of my time is still being spent on the above with simple updates going out as I do have down time waiting on assistance in cleaning up old creature code by the previous programmers (they are doing so on their own time right now).

I've been keeping players informed of what's going on in the Developer Updates (http://www.xsyon.com/blog.php/1?blogcategoryid=3)

--------------------------------------------------

Regarding desynch, this is a difficult issue to deal with due to different latencies between players from around the world. We have an open discussion on creature desynch here (http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/9304-02-06-2015-Creatures-Desynch). There is a good link explaining desynch on that thread. The biggest issue can be explained simply as this:

Imagine player 1 and player 2 are standing next to each other. For a message to travel to the server and to the other player it takes 250 ms.

Player 1 begins to sprint, at 10 m/s.

No matter what is coded, by the time the 'begin sprint' command reaches player 2, player 1 has already moved 2.5 meters. While positions can be predicted, starting or stopping motions can't.

Obviously this is problematic for 'twitch' combat.

Very early solutions to deal with this problem included targeted, not free swing, combat, reduced speeds and disabling running and sprinting while in combat mode. Players in general did not want those limitations and we implemented the current system a long time ago in response to what players desired.

To accommodate for latency issues, ranges will be increased with the current round of revisions even if they are not realistic. I'm always looking for better solutions but have not seen or been recommended an MMO with good twitch / free swing combat to check out. Most MMOs that I've checked out use the typical targeted and key press systems which I honestly don't like at all for melee combat.

--------------------------------------------------

Regarding PvP, some of the changes I'm working on will certainly affect PvP as well.

If I didn't care about PvP it would never have been part of the game, period. It is true that the drama often brought on by PvP players in the past few years has greatly diminished my enthusiasm for PvP. This was greatly reduced by adding the PvE server, which in retrospect should have launched day one. PvP will still continue to be improved over time and part of the game as intended.

I hope that answers your questions!

THANKS a lot for the clear answer, really appreciated.

Regarding desync, there are many games with twitch combat that don't have those problems, that is why I think you should check your network code and combat system as this is something that can be done. Games like Darkfall Online, Mortal Online or even TERA do have twitch combat. Darkfall is the best one. They do have 2 servers, one in EU and one in NA due to ping issues so that players are equal regarding ping. From 0 to 180ms ping, there is no real difference, problems arise above 180ms. Don't you think it is better for new players, mmos press, reviews etc to show a solid combat without ping, which is a very BAD thing to see in a relased game (more with a game with pvp) than to leave it as it is because people in a poll decided to? It feels very unprofessional, and I don't really understand how this is not a high priority after all this time. I would prefer some changes to the combat if that means it changes to a solid and responsive one, I don't really get how this doesn't affect you as the main developer, my whole spanish clan after tring the game if you ask them about Xsyon making progress in development, all they ask is if the wierd desynch combat system is still in place...Elder scrolls online for example also has twitch combat but not as complex as darkfall for example, where just haveing the reticule targetting the mob/player it will hit. In my opinion, the worst thing for a game (and other aspects of life :) is not knowing what your limitations are, so if this combat system creates a very heavy desyinch issue that you can't fix, change it to something better with no desyinch but that feels and plays twitch, like the games I told you before.

Anyways, thanks a lot for answering like you did :)

[Xsyon]

Hi Treyu,

I'm not sure when you last played. Desynch issues were worked on and confirmed improved several times since the Prelude launch, though it's been a while since the last revisions.

The current situation is as reported in the Desynch Feedback Thread (http://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/9304-02-06-2015-Creatures-Desynch). There are some issues for sure, but players aren't usually reporting major issues like during the initial launch. Some players tell me they have no issues and think combat is fine as is. Others report minor issues (like having multiple attacks from a creature at once when fighting in a group). Others, usually with low ping report range and hit box issues. Feedback on this has not been consistent.

Although current players usually ask for other improvements, creature and combat revisions are high priority and my main focus right now. These are just very time consuming changes for me to make. The creature code is one of the few remaining systems that I did not personally code at this point and I'm working on several different tactics at the same time to see which produces the best results.

Having both US and EU servers would definitely help, but it's not feasible.

I will check out your recommendations. In the past I've been told that those games had worse issues than Xsyon, but of course games changed and they certainly could also have improved.

Thanks again!

[MrDDT]

Xsyon I have a 30 ping to the server. I still have massive Desync in PVP. PVE it's less and more to do with hitbox issues. Like try hitting a shadowbear where you are 6 meters from the "hitbox" when you are pressed up in its back. You have to attack it from the side with a long reach weapon (like a shovel) to hit it. Because from there you are only about 2 to 3 meters away.

You simply can't have twitch based melee combat (or ranged) where you are required to parry and move to avoid damage when you are hit from 15 meters or more, with the longest weapon is 3 meters (which is odd to me).

The post you linked to is a topic about animals doing weird things like double attacking, and issues with the hitbox and less to do with desync.

Comparing the desync at launch to now is like apples and oranges. There are massive server crashing and roll backs at launch, where you would be locked up for minutes at a time. But now is still very bad and PvP is not feasible with any sort of skill.

I agree with Treyu, it's likely going to be too hard to fix the ping issues with desync and better to just have a working system with target based combat.

I would love to see special moves though. Having a few different attack that have no real effect in game is pointless.

Treyu, Elder Scrolls Online, has target based combat just FYI. You can use tab to target people and it will lock onto that player and hit them even behind people. Like arrows curve around or go right through people to hit the target. They also have a default of "soft lock" system where you shoot a spell and it will target whatever was in the small arc/target even if they move, or someone steps in the way.
Darkfall has a true MMO twitch based targeting system where, you swing a weapon or shoot a spell and anyone (even friendlies) can be hit in the path of it if they walk in the middle of it.

[treyu]

Xsyon I have a 30 ping to the server. I still have massive Desync in PVP. PVE it's less and more to do with hitbox issues. Like try hitting a shadowbear where you are 6 meters from the "hitbox" when you are pressed up in its back. You have to attack it from the side with a long reach weapon (like a shovel) to hit it. Because from there you are only about 2 to 3 meters away.

You simply can't have twitch based melee combat (or ranged) where you are required to parry and move to avoid damage when you are hit from 15 meters or more, with the longest weapon is 3 meters (which is odd to me).

The post you linked to is a topic about animals doing weird things like double attacking, and issues with the hitbox and less to do with desync.

Comparing the desync at launch to now is like apples and oranges. There are massive server crashing and roll backs at launch, where you would be locked up for minutes at a time. But now is still very bad and PvP is not feasible with any sort of skill.

I agree with Treyu, it's likely going to be too hard to fix the ping issues with desync and better to just have a working system with target based combat.

I would love to see special moves though. Having a few different attack that have no real effect in game is pointless.

Treyu, Elder Scrolls Online, has target based combat just FYI. You can use tab to target people and it will lock onto that player and hit them even behind people. Like arrows curve around or go right through people to hit the target. They also have a default of "soft lock" system where you shoot a spell and it will target whatever was in the small arc/target even if they move, or someone steps in the way.
Darkfall has a true MMO twitch based targeting system where, you swing a weapon or shoot a spell and anyone (even friendlies) can be hit in the path of it if they walk in the middle of it.


This is exactly what I feel with the combat, and that is why I find "wierd" the the main developer answers saying the desyinc is worked and improved and there is a thread where people claim issues are random and with animals... that makes it feel as if you, xsyon, are not really aware of the real problem, which is what MrDTT explained. Desync is there, it doesn't have to do with ping, it has to do with the combat code and hitboxes and it is very important to make it work if you want a growing game and good reviews. As I told you, everyone I know that touched this game claims they won't come back till combat is anything good at least. You should change it to something more simple, because what you have now is too much for it to work as it should for a released product which claims it has pvp (or even pve). It is like having a wedding dresses shop with millions of dresses but you show them in the store full of stains and spots and then saying you don't understand why people don't come to your store but do come to the one in front of you that has less dresses but they are absolutely clean and perfect....

MrDTT, I know Elder Scrolls Online has that type of combat, but it FEELs twitch enough. If you are not targetting with your reticule the mob/player (big hitbox) you won't hit. it feels good and creates a good feeling in pvp and pve. That is why I think xsyon should change combat to something like that as it clearly suffer from trying to have a very complex combat system where the final result is very bad and unprofessional

[Xsyon]

Hello Treyu,

I'm just telling you how it's been. Creatures and desynch issues HAVE been worked on since you last played from what I can see. You last played in May, 2012 according to the database. Is that correct? Combat was being worked on at that time and a lot of changes were released shortly after you last played. Since then, ranges and hit boxes have been adjusted several times and connection code has been improved.

As I've stated, the feedback on desynch has been inconsistent. Desynch is always ping / latency related. A good explanation is posted on this other game's site here (http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/175363).

You see for yourself part of the latest feedback. At the same time I received messages from players (mostly that play on the PvP server) saying they felt combat and creatures are fine and that working on them was a waste of my time.

I don't feel that way, but I'm relating to you the type of feedback I get. I am aware there is some desynch, but it does not appear to be major. I'm aware there are other issues, but they are technically not desynch issues. This is why I'm again focusing on creatures and combat right now, without player testing at the moment.

I did check out Darkfall last night. The first thing I noticed is that it felt like my movement and jump commands took a moment to react after I pressed a key. It felt to me that commands were sent to the server and back before the action took place. If so, that certainly helps address desynch during combat, but feels sluggish to me. (I may be wrong, but that's how it felt) Do you notice this?

Also melee combat seemed to be a simple mouse click when in range with special attacks using key presses coming at higher levels. There was no dodging or parrying. Is that correct? At high level, how many different special attacks do you get and what do they do? I didn't have a shield. If you have a shield does blocking occur automatically, or is it just an increase in armor (like in Warcraft)?

Thanks again for the input. It's good timing since I'm currently working on this stuff.

[MrDDT]

MrDTT, I know Elder Scrolls Online has that type of combat, but it FEELs twitch enough. If you are not targetting with your reticule the mob/player (big hitbox) you won't hit. it feels good and creates a good feeling in pvp and pve. That is why I think xsyon should change combat to something like that as it clearly suffer from trying to have a very complex combat system where the final result is very bad and unprofessional


Yeah don't get me wrong I think ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) does have the combat that feels twitch enough. But I did want to note that it wasn't a true twitch system. I like the balance ESO brought to the MMO market.
Darkfall to me was too much and only a few core people can get it.


Xsyon,
Yes I believe people always (including myself) that there is a slight delay in how the attacks, and movement. The game has what is called "Momentum" which means it takes a moment for your player to do actions that require great speed. Starting and stopping. As in real life you can't just go from standing still to lighting speed. It takes a moment to move you body. This does give the feeling of sluggish and I think its good but not the best for MMO style combat.
ESO gives the best of both worlds.
If MMO's had better pings and latency, then sure Darkfall and Mount and Blade style of combat would be the best. But because there will always be a delay and latency issues. I believe ESO has done the best of mixing both worlds.

Darkfall has dodging and parrying. Also special moves do not come at higher levels (there are no levels) however, you do get them later.
To parry, you use a special key, and it will directionally deflect like 75% of the damage. Some part of the effect can not be parried. (like parrying a fireball will still knock you about a bit)
If you have a shield you can parry 95% of the damage, and it's not automatic.
Darkfall has a prowess system where you gain exp and there are skills and stats that are cheap at first but cost more as you want higher tiers.

About the desync in Xsyon's current combat.
If someone is running by me (on my screen) I can hit them. Even though on their screen they are 20 meters away. This is a major problem when the only way to avoid being hit is to move out of range.
The combat lot even says "From 20 meters" when the attack lands.
Also if I lag up on your screen, I look like I'm not moving. Even though my lag on my end is perfectly fine. Which allows someone to do like 2 or 3 hits on a target that is not moving. Then their lag catches up, and the person is hit 2 or 3 times in a moment and from a far range.

[treyu]

Hello Treyu,

I'm just telling you how it's been. Creatures and desynch issues HAVE been worked on since you last played from what I can see. You last played in May, 2012 according to the database. Is that correct? Combat was being worked on at that time and a lot of changes were released shortly after you last played. Since then, ranges and hit boxes have been adjusted several times and connection code has been improved.

As I've stated, the feedback on desynch has been inconsistent. Desynch is always ping / latency related. A good explanation is posted on this other game's site here (http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/175363).

You see for yourself part of the latest feedback. At the same time I received messages from players (mostly that play on the PvP server) saying they felt combat and creatures are fine and that working on them was a waste of my time.

I don't feel that way, but I'm relating to you the type of feedback I get. I am aware there is some desynch, but it does not appear to be major. I'm aware there are other issues, but they are technically not desynch issues. This is why I'm again focusing on creatures and combat right now, without player testing at the moment.

I did check out Darkfall last night. The first thing I noticed is that it felt like my movement and jump commands took a moment to react after I pressed a key. It felt to me that commands were sent to the server and back before the action took place. If so, that certainly helps address desynch during combat, but feels sluggish to me. (I may be wrong, but that's how it felt) Do you notice this?

Also melee combat seemed to be a simple mouse click when in range with special attacks using key presses coming at higher levels. There was no dodging or parrying. Is that correct? At high level, how many different special attacks do you get and what do they do? I didn't have a shield. If you have a shield does blocking occur automatically, or is it just an increase in armor (like in Warcraft)?

Thanks again for the input. It's good timing since I'm currently working on this stuff.

MrDDT explained well. Darkfall has momentun. it also has parry without shield and block with shield. it also has critical hits with melee (if you land 3 consecutive melee hits, the forth is critical) and critical makes more damage but also a special effect that depends on the melee weapon you are using: for example, some give a penalty to slashing damage, other produce a knockback, etc. It also has more damage from behind. And there are also different weapons like I said, with different damage types (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing) and different ranges and attack speeds. Each weapon type has also different "ranks" which means they are more expensive the higher the rank, but also do more damage and have more durability. Same with armor types. So as you see, there is depth in the system. Also, there are different schools and each of the schools have different abilities which are also used in combat, so combat is a combination of aimed normal attacks (mouse click) and abiities.

I also think Elder Scrolls Online combat system (based on it i mean) will be perfect for xsyon. It is less complex than what you have, it feels twitch, and as it is simplier you will fix any desying issue for sure.

I can't beleive people don't have combat issues in Xsyon like you said.... I played with a new account some months ago (so i could try the free trial) and I saw the problems again... people movin wierd, i could not hit someone in front of me like if hitbox was wierd or we were not really near even though I saw him in front of me in my screen.... It is just like MrDDT say.

Anyway, it is good that you are focusing on this, I really hope it works out good :)