07/01/2015 - Feedback Request - Death Penalties

[Xsyon]

Hello Xsyon Citizens!

I'd like to open a discussion on potential death penalties. This is something that I've been meaning to implement for a very long time. With Infirmaries coming up this is a good time to put death penalties into play.

I am considering various options and am completely open to suggestions and feedback on this.

Here are some ideas that have been suggested or have been under consideration in the past:

- Item duration loss. This could be for equipped items or across the board all end use items (armor, weapons, tools) on your person. Maybe a 10% durability loss. This could help boost the economy. I can imagine players trying to drop items to save them last minute and might need some mechanism to prevent that from happening. Also, this could be paired with adding a ‘repair’ function that could require materials and dollars (another cash sink) or just dollars.

- Cash loss. For this I would need to add cash as a dollar count attached to your person (like in Warcraft for example). You won’t be able store dollars in bins. This would be another cash sink, but I could also add the cash or some percent of it onto nearby revenants.

- Item loss. One or a few items could be selected randomly, removed from the player and loaded up on nearby revenants. I think this could be fun, especially if I add backpacks or pouches to revenants.

- XP loss. This is straightforward. It just wouldn’t work well on players that have no xp saved up. It could require a negative XP balance to restore.

- Temporary stat or skill loss. This could last 10 - 30 minutes with gradual restoration. This is similar to Warcraft’s hefty stat and power reduction if you choose to resurrect at a shrine instead of doing a ghost run to your corpse. This may be of an annoyance than anything else, but I’m throwing the idea out here.

All feedback is welcome on this. Please do not turn this into a debate, however. I personally am leaning towards item duration / item loss, but I would like to hear from all you players first!

Thanks!

[MrDDT]

I like:
Item loss with maybe a way to stop it with a cash insurance system.
Also it would need to cover items in the inventory also and not just equipped.
My worry is people still death porting items naked (like 1000s of bricks) across the map.


Cash loss also works but added work with less effect of the item loss system.

My worry about this is that people will run around naked again.

Item loss, sounds good but is really a pain in the butt if it happens. Already with a rev people dying they have major issues getting items back.

XP loss is almost pointless, it's barely even a punishment. Also remember it would be 0 punishment for non subbed accounts.

Temp stat and skill loss works but still doesnt fix the death porting items around the map.

[Whorlok]

- Cash loss. For this I would need to add cash as a dollar count attached to your person (like in Warcraft for example). You won’t be able store dollars in bins. This would be another cash sink, but I could also add the cash or some percent of it onto nearby revenants.

- Item loss. One or a few items could be selected randomly, removed from the player and loaded up on nearby revenants. I think this could be fun, especially if I add backpacks or pouches to revenants.

[MrDDT]

Do you plan on adding in a Good/Evil system like talked about a while back? This was part of the plan for that also.

[Kyosa]

I prefer item duration loss with repair function in dollars.

[Alude]

I prefer you loosing all skills, itme and you have to start complete new(creat new toon and so on). If it should be a survival game, tell me in which real world what we know we can save anythink to take over in a new life ?
I think this will push the people think about how I play and what I doin´g in the game if I go hunting alone or in a team, and what I hunt or where I jump down and so on. I alsow don´t want that some boost (drink or plant) will be add in the game I think it will be more interesting to add a skill like doctor or medicine.

[Pwnuts]

i barely die anytime unless i deathport, so usual i sould be fine with any of them. but honestly most of the current suggest stuff is nonsense, at least for the way i face and play the game.

1. remove 10% of the dura on equipped items may be fine for ppl who fight in a grass suit. but those who make and wear decend armors can not get back the materials while the armors duro goes down with the current system. supreme plastic sole, buckle, zipper, decoration, cloth or whatevery in violet with 100q is taking weeks to find, even if you sort scrap it wouldnt be really fast. 100p mutant critters are almost not there, if you want to make a leather suit you need at least 10 of them + getting a decend quality to make sure you get 100q out of the hides to make only one set of armor.

- provide materials, fix critters and renew scavtables. thats what you are talking about since month. you always say you working on it right now but i only see new stuff is coming. fix what we have currently and after that implement new stuff which cause new problems.

2. item loss will avoid what was always a goal - trading between players.

3. cash loss might be fine for those who have a lot of cash, but not for new players.

4. debuffs. that would be someting i for sure can agree with. even if stat/skill loss can cause other problems imo. lower skills means you can raise your skills faster in this time couz you do not have to deal with softcaps. sure this could be fixed somehow but i wanted to mention it, if you seriously want to implement this.


Suggestions: 1st of all we would need a system to seperate kinds of death. combat (pvm), starving/die of thirst, pvp, falldmg.

i would suggest the screen of a player turns red ( or any prefered colour ) if he loose hp couz of food water - similar to the mist effect. a alart system which warn you if you didnt notice your bars. and every player died couz of that already, they are simply to small or covered by other stuff.

how about this. when a player die he become a ghost. lets push the ghost duration up to 15-30 minutes, add buttons instead of "spawn" which we have now. a player can choose to instandly respawn by dealing with one of the penealtys which are in the mainpost? if not he simply have to wait the time you set.


I prefer you loosing all skills, itme and you have to start complete new(creat new toon and so on). If it should be a survival game, tell me in which real world what we know we can save anythink to take over in a new life ?
I think this will push the people think about how I play and what I doin´g in the game if I go hunting alone or in a team, and what I hunt or where I jump down and so on. I alsow don´t want that some boost (drink or plant) will be add in the game I think it will be more interesting to add a skill like doctor or medicine.

great idea, + we should start working on a singleplayer client to download. server wont be needed anymore ;)

[azzymor]

I'm answering as a former player of Xsyon, but will comment each of the suggestions you listed.

- Item duration loss.

No, I don't like that idea at all. Duration should be decreased over time and by use (corrosion, hits, wear and tear etc), NOT by dying. The repair option is nice but should only be possible by using a craft skill. Money sink? You might as well introduce NPC's with shops...


- Cash loss.

Loosing cash by dying? Loosing cash you wouldn't even bring on a raid/exploration? No, and only if you were stupid to bring it along and were robbed (after your death)...

- Item loss.

Could be fun especially if it emulated the fact that your body was stripped clean by revs in the neighbourhood. Of course you should respawn naked.

- XP loss..

Don't like it very much and hardly of any use.

- Temporary stat or skill loss. .

Even if dying and rising again doesn't make any sense except in game or a good book, this idea is half ok with me. Ghost running to a corpse might be one hell of a thing to do in Xsyon though, especially when the land is expanded.


In general it is, like Pean already mentioned, very important that you differentiate between different kinds of deaths. It doesn't make any sense with a death penalty that reduces duration if you died from thirst.

I don't like insurance systems at all. Who would offer the insurance?

I would prefer a system where you are debuffed when you respawn. Everything you wore when dying are still in a corpse where you died. To get everything back you have to re-claim it by walking there and loot it. If not it can be looted at any time by anyone. After a certain time the corpse dissolves with everything on it.

Duration should, as I suggested above, decrease over time and by use anyway.

[Mactavendish]

Of the options listed, I am most in favor of Item Duration loss.

However, ONLY if there is a repair function added to the game.

The concerns I can see even with this is...
Let's say you have a very fine weapon, and the very best armor you can get.
The repair function needs to be able to restore the items you have back to 100% of what they were when you died.
This will prevent complaints for the most part, and will be a way to promote further interactions between players,
if the repairs require things that only players can provide.

For instance, for a master washoe chest piece, master level parts you can buy off other players. Even new players can
take part in this by supplying armor or weapon parts, that can be used to repair gear with.

This will allow you to introduce death penalties, encourage player interaction, and provide a small money sink.

Second, Item loss as you describe it could be good too. Adding backpacks where revs can store multiple items they have looted off players will make it fun to hunt rev. Also this can encourage players to band together rather than just play solo, because som of these revs will become quite powerful, and the player may need assistance to get his items back.

[Kross]

I myself do not like the money or item loss, especially for new players.

Armor, weapon and tools equipped experiencing duration loss makes more sense to me. Some of the cheaper items could be tagged as BOD "Break on Death" if equipped during death. I myself do not mind losing any items in this game because it can all be remade if needed including carts. So I do not feel a repair system is needed.

A lot of players that put this game down complain that there is no one on. So forcing them to depend on other players when their aren't enough players now to make people happy would only make matters worse in my opinion.

To encourage players to make their own baskets and pouches, baskets and pouches not owned by player would drop with items in it where death occurs unless the death was caused by another player or on any tribe land. Items would not be allowed to be added to baskets and pouches that reach their duration limits. Once all items are removed from baskets and pouches that have reached their duration limits would be removed from the game.

XP loss or temp XP freeze is fine.

[MrDDT]

Let me start off by saying that it seems like most people favor item dura loss. I really believe this is the best option and let me list a few reasons why.

1)If it's done like in UO, it will remove some of the high end gear without breaking people's backs. In UO they had it so gear could be repaired back to 100% QL but the dura would be lowered by 1. So if an item was at 90% dura left (1 death) and you repaired it. Say it was 90/100. After the repair it would be 99/99. This means that after 100 repairs (assuming 10% uses up 1 permanent dura). It would be a very very long time for good gear and crappy gear would break much faster.

2)Put a new system in for repairing and a reason to use high skills (leathercrafters would repair leather items), much better economy and community building system.

3)Would stop people from deathporting massive stacks of items for fear of lowing the dura.

4)Give more of a survival feel to the game of not wanting to die.






i barely die anytime unless i deathport, so usual i sould be fine with any of them. but honestly most of the current suggest stuff is nonsense, at least for the way i face and play the game.

When I played with you, I've seen you die a few times. Just in the limited play time with you. You also used the deathporting option to move items.





1. remove 10% of the dura on equipped items may be fine for ppl who fight in a grass suit. but those who make and wear decend armors can not get back the materials while the armors duro goes down with the current system. supreme plastic sole, buckle, zipper, decoration, cloth or whatevery in violet with 100q is taking weeks to find, even if you sort scrap it wouldnt be really fast. 100p mutant critters are almost not there, if you want to make a leather suit you need at least 10 of them + getting a decend quality to make sure you get 100q out of the hides to make only one set of armor.

But it would make those items of more value because of how long they lasted. It would also be better for the economy as a whole because currently, items like never break.





2. item loss will avoid what was always a goal - trading between players.

This helps trading not hurts it. Players will not be able to deathport massive amounts of items around the map, so local trades will be encouraged more. Also because items are being removed from the game more, more crafting and trading.




3. cash loss might be fine for those who have a lot of cash, but not for new players.

We don't even know how much $ it will cost per death, how can you even say it would be hard or easy for anyone? What if it were 1$ per death to repair?
If the repair is based on the QL of the item and max dura, it wouldn't be hard on new players at all.





Suggestions: 1st of all we would need a system to seperate kinds of death. combat (pvm), starving/die of thirst, pvp, falldmg.

i would suggest the screen of a player turns red ( or any prefered colour ) if he loose hp couz of food water - similar to the mist effect. a alart system which warn you if you didnt notice your bars. and every player died couz of that already, they are simply to small or covered by other stuff.

how about this. when a player die he become a ghost. lets push the ghost duration up to 15-30 minutes, add buttons instead of "spawn" which we have now. a player can choose to instandly respawn by dealing with one of the penealtys which are in the mainpost? if not he simply have to wait the time you set.



I see no reason why we need to separate types of deaths.
I for sure do not like the death choice option because then again you are still allowing deathporting massive amounts of items.

[znaiika]

How about no death-porting option, if you die you resurrect at the spot where you died not at your own totem, and you could add another option to resurrect at founders island, also you auto-drop all your pouches and basket at the spot you died.

[Pwnuts]

Second, Item loss as you describe it could be good too. Adding backpacks where revs can store multiple items they have looted off players will make it fun to hunt rev. Also this can encourage players to band together rather than just play solo, because som of these revs will become quite powerful, and the player may need assistance to get his items back.

revs already wear newbies sneakers, lumberjack shirts and pants. this way they remove the basic starter kits from someone who step in a revs place without even knowing what can happen.





When I played with you, I've seen you die a few times. Just in the limited play time with you. You also used the deathporting option to move items.


sure, couz critters can run faster than a player who sprint. if we finally would fix the animal behavour even this few deaths would now happen anymore. but we focus on new stuff, as usual.



But it would make those items of more value because of how long they lasted. It would also be better for the economy as a whole because currently, items like never break.


more valuable? cmon they are alreade unable to trade couz you almost cant reproduce them. the current value is out of what players reach if they would be even offerd on the marked.


anyway, deathporting was always part of the game, and everyone used it. i wouldnt mind if it doesnt work anymore. but a better hauling system for heavy items should be replaced at some point. even if its juts a boat or the possibility to use a cart as such.

[wastelandstoic]

- Item duration loss.

Very much AGAINST item duration loss at a 10% per death ratio for reasons pwnuts stated above. But, the item loss as detailed by DDT (100/100 and assuming 10% uses up 1 permanent dura) would not be such a burden to players and benefit in the other listed areas. Also, very much FOR a repair system to accompany this feature.

- Cash loss.

I like the idea of adding pouches and cash to revs but am AGAINST any type of cash loss that is not VERY minimal.

- Item loss.

Totally AGAINST item loss.

- XP loss.

Totally AGAINST xp loss.

- Temporary stat or skill loss.

No problem with temporary stat or skill loss within reason and a cash/ resource sink to remove the temp loss would be welcomed as well.


--Likewise, I don't have a problem with death porting. If you put in some kind of loss system it will be minimized but as it has always been allowable I see no overwhelming reason to completely do away with it.

[thurgond]

The trick here is to make the penalties severe enough that players will notice them, but not so bad that players will seldom leave low danger areas.

Giving items to a rev sounds like fun, but would be a nightmare in practice. Currently, if you die to a rev, you can recover your stuff because you know that rev will be in a small area. If your items are given to a random rev but you die to bear, you will have no clue where that rev will be. Some areas have next to no revs (any area I regularly travel through) while others have lag causing mobs of 30+ revs. The rev in question may spend all her time in a willow thicket at the bottom of an unclimbable slope.

Cash loss would be trivial for established players, but could devastate new players. And a new money system would be needed.

A temporary "rez sickness" stat loss could work on Peace, but would be an extra penalty in PvP. It might also be too easily out waited. A 5 to 15 minute penalty might sound bad, but if I take the "green mist train" back home after a hunting/scavenging trip it can take that long to put stuff up. This sort of penalty would dovetail well if an improved infirmary could remove it for a price.

An alternative to stat loss would be a temporary encumbrance, speed, energy or health debuff.

I think the best solution would be to remove 10% durability on one equipped item. This would help the economy for replacement armor/weapons, but not be too onerous. Decreasing durability by 10% for all items would mean a new suit of armor every 9 or so deaths. That way players would seldom wear their best stuff and would lower the value of top end gear.

Skill loss would be bad. A block on the green experience bar that would have to be worked off or would disappear over time (like Ryzom) could work. This would hurt newer players more though.

Any repair system would destroy the economy for gear and introduce a needless complication.

[thurgond]

My worry is people still death porting items naked (like 1000s of bricks) across the map.


I believe this is your worry, not Jordi's.

However, if this is desired there is an easy fix--return to the original resurrection code. For new players, you originally came back where you died or where you could run to before the "second chance" button came up and the rez timer ran out. This offered some strategy in PvP, specially in close one-on-one fights. You could shadow your killer and come back at half health against an almost dead opponent. Conversely, if you were outmatched you would run towards cover then come back running further away. A few players never figured this out and got ganked repeatedly right at their body, so this was changed.

Offering the option to rez in place or at the nearest infirmary would eliminate death porting and make hunting/scavenging with a cart a better option. As things stand, there are places I don't go with a cart because of the bother of a long run back to the card exceeds value of the extra weight that can be transported.

[MrDDT]

What does the old rez system have to do with able to death port across the map or not with full items?

Next is the fact you are talking about issues with PVP and no one plays PVP. The game is not made for PVP, it will unlikely never be PVP focused. Why worry about PVP issues when thinking up ideas for rezing?


I'm talking about the silly system in place where you go to do a trade and you get massive amounts of items / weight then turn around and say "ok kill me home" and poof you are home with massive amount of items and weight.

Deathporting has hurt economy of Xsyon since day 1.

[thurgond]

Well with the old system you rezed in place, not at your totem so there was no death porting. Please explain how going back to this system wouldn't address your concerns.

IMHO, the current rez at totem system helped trade by cutting out half of a round trip to a distant trade partner, but it hurt PvP by making the distance to a rematch much greater.

[Pwnuts]

Well with the old system you rezed in place, not at your totem so there was no death porting. Please explain how going back to this system wouldn't address your concerns.

IMHO, the current rez at totem system helped trade by cutting out half of a round trip to a distant trade partner, but it hurt PvP by making the distance to a rematch much greater.

I agree, i wouldnt have trad as much as i did if i would had carried all the stuff back.

[MrDDT]

Well with the old system you rezed in place, not at your totem so there was no death porting. Please explain how going back to this system wouldn't address your concerns.

IMHO, the current rez at totem system helped trade by cutting out half of a round trip to a distant trade partner, but it hurt PvP by making the distance to a rematch much greater.

It helped PVP because the other way made no sense, and how it wouldn't fix the system is death would have no punishment but 30 seconds missing out of your life.

You think it helps trade but it hurts it in the long run. Why? Because people will not need to trade for regional items. See Xsyon is set up for regional resources. With deathporting you make it so the whole world is the same region. Which is why people currently don't care about living in extreme zones when you can go out there get all the mats you want and port it back in a few seconds.

Regional trading would cause tribes that live in those areas to collect the resources that you need. Like stainless steel, or mutant bear hides. Then trade for something your region has.

Anyways, believe how you want. Biggest issue I see with regional system is currently few tribes that can support it correctly. If deathporting is going to stay and you believe it would hurt trade, we need to change the system to simply forget weights and make a mail system also. There is no reason not to IF you believe deathporting hurts trade.

[Bejaymac]

The problem with death penalties is just who is it going to affect the most.

Item duration loss - shouldn't really have any affect on established players as they have the resources to recover, but new players don't have the resources, and going on how hard I'm finding it on the War server getting cash isn't easy as a new toon either.

Cash loss - pretty much the same as duration loss, wont bother the vets but will hurt all of the newer players.

Item loss - same as above, but it will be interesting watching vets trying to get their best bone armor and red & white striped shovels back from a rev, especially if it's at max HP, although I suspect your more likely to get a hell of a lot of tickets complaining about it.

None of it is really going to "hurt" the vets, it's just going to give the Steam crowd more ammo in their efforts to make the game look bad.

[MrDDT]

Item Duration Loss has almost no effect on newer players. It will be the vets using good items that are the most affected. A new player losing 10% on a crap item is very very easy to replace even for the new player, and if they can't replace it then it's likely not a big loss or need. Vet players will be more harmed because of the hours and skill levels required to replace a 115QL weapon or suit of armor.


Cash is the hardest for the new players because it requires scav skill for a new player and actively do it. The goods they have are unlikely to create a lot of cash, however, as the economy builds up better vets will get better at using cash to pay for basic goods like rocks and wood handles that new player can do because they require no skills. Yes it's grunt work, but that's how new players learn the game and raise skills.

[Kross]

Has anyone thought about death by thirst or starvation? I forget all the time to drink and die most often this way. Already died twice today from thirst. Probably dying now as I write this. lol. I am going to hate this now that I think of it. lol

[Anon386]

I don't like "- Item loss". In games where items are essential and the time to make them is long it's too high a price to take them away on death. Now maybe if you added in some kind of weighting system that would favor low ql or easy to make items it might be okay. I just find appalling that a whole pouch of master tools could get taken.
This choice would also encourage players to take as little with them as possible. I like the idea that you can take various tools with you and be prepared to do other things.

I'm not sure if duration loss is fair to high end gear. Master level equipment is not easy to get mats. It would be a shame if folks start to think that the duration reduction make it uneconomical to even bother with Master level gear. If it can be completely repaired it would be better. I'm in favor of an item master crafters can craft and sell that anyone can use to repair. I don't like the idea of people having to seek out a master crafter to trade and get items repaired.

My preference would be relatively large reductions to combat related skills (not a temporary debuff, level(s) removed) and temporary stat debuffs.

I also like the idea of using dollar bills to "insure" yourself or items against the penalties of death.

Do thirst and hunger deaths need to be the same severity? I admit I die all the time to these.

[Xsyon]

The majority seems to favor the item wear which is what I also think would be best (and is quite standard). It would be similar to the UO system and accompanied by a repair system.

I will address a few questions and points brought up as I go through the thread again.


MrDDT - My worry about this is that people will run around naked again. I haven't seen players run around naked in other games with equipment duration loss on death. They did in the very early stages of Xsyon though. Why do you think it could happen again? If there is a core issue that I'm not thinking about that makes Xsyon much different than other games in this respect, I would like to address it.


Whorlok - For this I would need to add cash as a dollar count attached to your person.
I'm planning to do this anyways as I think it will be better overall, especially with building uses for cash.


MrDDT - Do you plan on adding in a Good/Evil system like talked about a while back?I would love to, but right now it's not practical. A lot of the system is actually still in place (mostly the evil part, so many players have a very evil alignment right now in the database). The original planned system was planned on a lot more freedom and opportunities to make choices (for example - steal bins on tribe land or perform actions on another's tribe land that are current blocked). I learned early on that we weren't attracting enough mature players or the right balance of player types to make the system I intended work. I also got a lot of negative rants against penalizing evil players back when it was an issue for discussion.


Alude - I prefer you loosing all skills, items and you have to start complete new.
This would make for an interesting version of Xsyon actually, but not with the current worlds. (It would require a new server with much faster paced skill gains).


Pwnuts - 1st of all we would need a system to separate kinds of death.I don't see any reason for this other than wanting to death port using the death type with the least negative impact.


thurgond - return to the original resurrection code. For new players, you originally came back where you died or where you could run to before the "second chance" button came up and the rez timer ran out.True. I agree that this would eliminate death porting and I'm not against returning to this for the Peace Server. The main reason for the current porting home was to prevent repeated PvP ganking in the same spot and people reviving surprising players and killing them. I'll think about this...


MrDDT - It helped PVP because the other way made no sense, and how it wouldn't fix the system is death would have no punishment but 30 seconds missing out of your life.With death penalties such as item duration loss though, then there is a punishment.


Bejaymac - None of it is really going to "hurt" the vets, it's just going to give the Steam crowd more ammo in their efforts to make the game look bad.I think it's all in the details. High end items could cost a lot more to repair. Low end items could be affected less. Newbies could be unaffected until they hit a set level (like with the current hunger / thirst death). Regarding the Steam crowd making the game look bad - it's mostly people complaining about charging subscriptions for early access. Unfortunately, it's hard to get people to read my posts about the current state of Xsyon and the reasons for the subscription.


Kross - Has anyone thought about death by thirst or starvation?

Do thirst and hunger deaths need to be the same severity? I admit I die all the time to these.
Death penalties might give that extra incentive to carry around some food or farm, cook or trade for better food to keep your food level up!

Thanks for all the feedback!

[thurgond]

Most hunger/thirst deaths are not due to lack of good food. Generally a character will die of thirst first, but the main problem is that players forget to eat and drink. Also also players have gone afk and forgotten to come back and log out. With item decay on death, characters may end up gearless after multiple deaths.

An inactivity logout would help prevent this and save on server bandwidth. Also a sound cue when a character starts to lose hit points due to hunger/thirst would help the inattentive players.

[MrDDT]

I agree Thurgond that people who stand around afk for hours would have issues with it. I know I've done that myself. It was one of the cool things I liked was I could stay logged on and do other things go afk. With the new food system I still kinda do it, because there is no real punishment at all. Spawning at your totem is more of a reward then a punishment haha.


I'm not sure how to fix that though Thurgond. I would like to be able to go afk and not die and be punished to much because I think its good for the game to have people logged in. I believe it's better than telling people to log out every time they want to go afk for 15+ mins. Why I believe it's good is because I know many many times I would see I'm logged in Xsyon and check whats going on and play more. Which is just what we want people to do play more.

Having said that, I think it's very important for people to feel that dying in Xsyon is worrisome and not want to die. I believe it's very bad for the game to trade with someone and then turn around and say "ok kill me home". It's a horrid system.

I think the best answer is to have a resting mode which we have that greatly lowers you water/hunger rates allowing you to go afk for hours a time. I see no harm to this, because all you really can do while in the resting state is type in chat. I think it needs to effect water and it would fix that issue.


I haven't seen players run around naked in other games with equipment duration loss on death. They did in the very early stages of Xsyon though. Why do you think it could happen again? If there is a core issue that I'm not thinking about that makes Xsyon much different than other games in this respect, I would like to address it.

I think part of that reason is that items have a larger effect on defense and buffs. Most games I've seen armor takes damage down from 1000s of damage to just a couple of 100 damage. Being naked in most games means you likely would be 1 hit by just about anyone. I think about attacking a mob when you are level 60 naked and you would pretty much dead in 1 hit.

Another major key to item loss though is that it has to effect ALL items not just equipment. Else people will just be naked with massive amount of items on them. Or take the items off just before they die.

If this happens where item dura loss on death, I think the weight code needs to be looked at to reduce it by about 20% on most items. Also the effect of carts should be increased by like 100%.

[chojinuk]

Most hunger/thirst deaths are not due to lack of good food. Generally a character will die of thirst first, but the main problem is that players forget to eat and drink. Also also players have gone afk and forgotten to come back and log out. With item decay on death, characters may end up gearless after multiple deaths.

An inactivity logout would help prevent this and save on server bandwidth. Also a sound cue when a character starts to lose hit points due to hunger/thirst would help the inattentive players.



I have died to thirst many times on my own tribeland, simply because I didnt even notice my health drop. When grinding mason it seem i have to drink very often like every 15 mins or so.

Its normally When Im grinding, I have lots of baskets open, and the thirst and health bars can be inadvertantly covered up, so you dont even see your health dropping.

I dont know if you would consider some sort graphic affect like a screen flash for immient thirst/food death only it wouldnt be needed for combat related deaths because in combat you know when you are about to die ;p

Maybe its because at the moment there is no death penalty, except inconvenince, I dont take enough care to make sure I keep the health bars unobstructed from view. Maybe a death penalty will force me to be more vigilant.

Sark

[wastelandstoic]

You think it helps trade but it hurts it in the long run. Why? Because people will not need to trade for regional items. See Xsyon is set up for regional resources. With deathporting you make it so the whole world is the same region. Which is why people currently don't care about living in extreme zones when you can go out there get all the mats you want and port it back in a few seconds.

A percentage of people (unknown but high) "don't care about living in extreme zones" for the same reason people in real life live along rivers and coastal areas --It makes life easier and is much more practical for survival. The people who do live out in extreme zones are probably going to be MUCH more self sufficient by nature.


With deathporting you make it so the whole world is the same region.

A total exaggeration. Like thurgond said, you still have to travel out to said person to make your deal and then deathport home. This is a time saver when you are, for instance, hauling a full bin of granite that with or without a cart you are moving in utter slow motion. In a game that requires you to grind MASSIVE amounts of items endlessly removing some kind of short cuts, albeit with a penalty or not, will also lose players who just will not be willing to put up with the undue time/energy that is required to 'play' the game.

This regional resource distribution you talk about has very minimal impact on the game. No one cares what kind of plates or nails or whatnot they have unless they intend to make a very specific high level crafted item which by my estimation does not happen all that often. One reason is because some of those items are beyond rare. Where is the tribe sitting on these resources and selling them to great profit? Anyone...anyone?


Biggest issue I see with regional system is currently few tribes that can support it correctly.

Hire a hundred chinamen (apologies to those from the orient. I did not invent exploitation and don't support it.) working 60 hours a week and you might have something. Short of that maybe it is not supportable? But lets force people to do it anyway..?


If deathporting is going to stay and you believe it would hurt trade, we need to change the system to simply forget weights and make a mail system also. There is no reason not to IF you believe deathporting hurts trade.

Where do I sign up?

[MrDDT]

Wastelandstoic,

Of course it has little impact on the game, it's not correctly put into the game. I already said that deathporting makes the whole Xsyon world 1 region effectively.

About the weight, I already said it was an issue, which is why I said carts and weight needs to be looked at. I said carts need to carry 2x more weight effectively.

Of course most people do not want to live in extreme areas. Those areas are made harsh, and there should be bonuses to live there to help with the hardship of living there. The "being close" to a resource in this case the resource is epic scav table, and mutant animals means very little when you have deathporting making anything you harvest or get in the extreme areas easy access for everyone.

I understand you are under the impression that making things easy to do means more people will stay or play, and making things harder means more people leave. This is not supported with real data, because looking at other MMO's and other games, its the other way around. There is a goldilocks zone of not too hard, and not too easy. It's about finding that spot. It's also not like a set spot it can change over time, it can be a big sweet spot or can be very small. But I do know that giving everything people need easy does not do well for games. People get bored and quit. I've recruited 100s of people in my tribe before and when you give everything to people they get bored and quit, you have to allow them to feel like they are working for something. At the sametime you don't want it to seem too hard or unachievable.

You talk about items being very rare or beyond rare and ask where the people are that sell them? Well that also is part of the system. People wont sell the best items, because the economy doesnt work. When people do not require much $ why sell it? When people are not driven to get the best items how are the few people that want them going to trade away those items?
Xsyon needs more top end content before you see people trading top end items. That doesnt mean I think Xsyon needs top end content to be the #1 thing to do. I'm just stating how it works and why it's not working in Xsyon.
Also do not forget that Xsyon has a very small player base currently, thus limited trade already. Out of say 200 people playing, if you are looking for the top 2% items, you have to remember that only 2% of 200 people would be able to really get that. Thus you are talking about 4 people on the server. One of them likely being you. So now you are stuck trying to trade with 3 other people. I know 1 of them willing to trade but likely not at a rate you like.
Economy is a massive system and a few broken parts and break the whole thing. Currently I believe the cash system is not working well enough so few people care about cash, and cash doesn't leave the game fast. On top of that how you acquire the cash is troublesome also. There is only 1 way to get cash, which is scavenging. Which means scavengers have a ton of it, and should need other things, but because scavenging is such a strong resource gathering skill it dominates everything else. So pretty much everyone is a scavenger and has tons of cash or they are not and need cash and tons of other items that scavengers get.


I'm saying if you want a regional system to work, you need to support it correctly. Which starts with removing deathporting, and then changing a few things. Like weight on items, and bonuses for living in the harder to reach areas.
When you think of regional resource system, think of UO and EVE online. I hope that helps.

[wastelandstoic]

I play this game AS A CASUAL PLAYER because it does have a low population, because it has elements that are PvE soloable, because I don't have to interact with a single player if I don't want to, because I like being self-sufficient etc, etc. I wholeheartedly agree with a nice middle ground where any player can play as they wish and for THEIR OWN reasons. Not for the reasons data supports or you support but for whatever varied reasons they(I) care to play for. And BTW, the majority of MMO players are much more PvE related (data supported) and there are direct correlations to this and a more casual atmosphere IN GENERAL.

You are wrong in saying that I think making things easy means more people will stay, and hard means more leave. No, I'm saying that it is my opinion that if people with play styles/mindsets such as yourself clamor for the removal of deathporting that it would be a mistake to remove it without first addressing why it is used and wanted by a certain number of players, let alone the fact that it has been in the game 4 years without hardly a complaint.

I only give opinions based on my play style and what I like and don't like about any given issue. I don't give opinions based on 'data' or what I think a developer want's to hear or what 'most people' think. Just what I think.

There has not been and will not be a game that people will not eventually get bored with. I have been bored with this game for a year. I take breaks yet I still come back and play because I can do so CASUALLY. Xsyon is it's own game and in my opinion it's best strength is that it is different and should follow it's own course not some other games model. Again economy is the developers concern not mine. I'll give opinions based on my game play and summarily go back to enjoying what I like about the game. I don't play or not play the game because the 'economy' isn't some ideal thing that exist only in my head or some other game.

At the end of the day if it is THE DEVELOPER'S DECISION to remove deathporting it is my opinion that before it is removed ALL these 'few things' you mention and possibly more should be opened to feedback and then brought into game BEFORE deathporting is removed to adequately compensate for the loss of it.

I never played UO and I have no plans to ever play EVE. They are not games that hold any interest whatever for me because they are PvP-centric, not just in that they have PvP but also in that their whole philosophy is based in that mindset/play style. And, that is exactly my point.

Try this since you want to advocate for what the 'data' supports (based on your own opinion). Go back through all the repeated post you have made hammering everyone multiple times in the same thread with how you think the game should be developed and correlate the times where the developer has took your arguably 'superior' opinion and implemented it outright. That data collection might help you to understand that while you have an opinion equal to anyone else here it most certainly counts not a jot more --therefore a reasonable person might conclude that one or two posts per thread would suffice to express ones opinion. (this makes 3 for me, I'm out)

While I also hope this helps, I'm resigned to believing that it will not.

[MrDDT]

I am a reasonable person and from my understand when you are having a problem or debate or discussion you should have a dialog or back and forth. I believe it unwise to just state something have someone counter and then end of discussion. Why not continue cordially on the topic until you work out all the detail to a satisfaction of all interested or related parties.

Having said that, I never said that PVE was not what most MMO gamers want, I was talking about making something too easy or too hard. I agree and I've said it for a while that Xsyon should focus on PVE. Which is also why I was wondering how he was going to take the good/evil system he talked about log ago. He replied he was going to wait on it. So now I post opinions on the death system for a PVE system.

Removing deathporting before addressing the weight system I think would be harmful also, I agree with you on that wastelandstoic. But I also think making a mail system like WOW or themepark games wouldn't be good for Xsyon's grove either.
Right now I believe the weight system is a massive pain in the butt and need to be changed. Sure it will be unrealistic for people to carry 1000 bricks, but currently they can carry a huge log on their back no problem. Lets at least make the game playable and fun. Then worry about changing some realism back into the game.

I also think we have to take some of your advice with a grain of salt if you want to keep the population low. As pretty sure that is not what the dev wants. I think he wants it relatively low. Like less than 50k but nothing like we have now. So any changes you are basing your opinions on for a low population option to keep people away wouldn't really be inline with what the dev wants. But I could be wrong.

I think it's really clear to put the deathporting option out of the game with full inventory dura loss, with insurance $ option, would be the best option. When doing that, change the weight of items lower, or increase what people can carry. Make carts much much more effective.

[wastelandstoic]

I'll go along with your theory on posting for one more post...

I think it's really clear that you are completely out of touch with the fact that this game has ONE DEVELOPER who has a chosen priority and list of issues that he has set to work on. You in effect by your opinion and it's contingencies would have him scrap that list in favor or yours, which is ever growing and changing based on the game YOU want.

I am playing the game right now and have been for a good while. I like it just as it is. I'm hopeful about any changes that will be forthcoming and welcome many of them, including an increased population --that could increase greatly and still be considered low-- as it will remain an Indy game and that is to be expected.

I think it's really clear that the issue of deathporting (if its an issue at all) be put aside for another time, much farther down the road, when it might then make sense to address it.

[MrDDT]

I'm doing 2 things.

Giving an opinion on what I think needs to be done and when.
Also showing that if you do 1 thing you will likely need to do another first.

You already agreed that removing deathporting you would also have to do something with weight of items or something. I was stating the same thing.

If I were to post just things I want but that were not in the vision of the dev, I would post a lot more than that. It would have to do with territorial wars, and group combat, along with rare items using rare crafted things to get them.
I understand the dev doesn't or can't do these things, and I limit my suggestions and opinions to what I believe he can do, and is willing to do.
Xsyon has wanted regional resources and has done a few things to try to promote it. I'm stating my opinion that if you want regional resources (like he seems to want) then deathporting is stopping that or hurting it so greatly it's infective. Also because people use deathporting to move heavy amounts of items and general trading that if you stop deathporting, you will need to do something about the weight of items and the way that carts work or people will be really upset. The last part at least I know you agree with.

Not listed in the suggestions by Xsyon that I think is a good option is leaving a grave that lasts for like 72 hours. So it would be 100% item drop and you would need to get all your inventory and gear off the grave. Now I've heard how people don't like this and they think back to the old "EQ" days of running back for your grave. So I've not said that either how might not want to do that.

I do not see why later down the road would be good to change deathporting. I'm off the opinion that Xsyon likes to change it sooner rather than later and not do a 1/2 fix. I figure now is the best time with fewer people effected and used to deathporting than down the road when people expect its the normal thing and you pull the rug out from under them.
Xsyon has said before while working on the code he wants to get all of that area done. This would be related to the death penalties code area.

[thurgond]

DDT, despite the number of posts in this thread against death porting, you are still the only person concerned with it. Any death penalty will reduce but not eliminate death porting. Too harsh death penalties to eliminate death porting will just drive players away.

Your whole "regional resources" argument is specious. Heavy items such as bricks, dirt, logs, shadow bear bones, etc. are not regional resources. Regional resources are schemes, blue prints, and rare types of metal and plastic. While heavy items such as poles, studs, sheets etc. can come in rare types of metal/plastic, they are not used in armor crafting so the bonus is not used. A steel pole from my local junk pile is functionally the same as a titanium one from across the map. Titanium buckles/decorations/rivets, etc. are light. A trade for regional resources will not appreciably increase a character's encumbrance.

It's been stated in this thread that cutting the travel time for a trade in half with a death port encourages trade, specially for casual players. You continue to insist that it is killing trade, but have never explained why.

[MrDDT]

You must have missed the post I said that they should put in a mail system if you believe deathporting hurts trade. Wouldn't you agree that a mail system would support this style of trade more?

My point is that if you want to support REGIONAL resource system. Deathporting option makes the whole world 1 region effectively.

If you do remove deathporting, you should look at the weight of items and carts because it will have a major impact on the way that people are playing.

Also clearly you are not reading the thread because I can see that YOU, and at least 3 others are concerned with deathporting.

FYI Shadowbears are a regional resource. They do not spawn in areas and do in others. That's the definition of regional.

You can not find a "pole" titanium or steel in all areas, again that is regional. I never said his regional resource system was working well, in fact I said the other way around.
I hope I cleared that up.

Final note, I think no matter what the option, punishing people that choose to die vs live should be the end goal.

[wastelandstoic]

I'm doing 2 things.

yup, Stroking your ego and indignantly repeating your opinions over and over in the hopes that they will be the only ones heard.


Giving an opinion on what I think needs to be done and when.

Which you do repeatedly, making the same point again and again, which is redundant and comical.


Also showing that if you do 1 thing you will likely need to do another first.

Which assumes everyone else including the Dev is a moron, incapable of making this conclusion for themselves.


If I were to post just things I want but that were not in the vision of the dev, I would post a lot more than that.

Obvious, and no surprise to anyone in these forums. Redundant.


I limit my suggestions and opinions to what I believe he can do, and is willing to do.

I'm guessing you have no idea of the definition of 'limit' where this game and your opinions are concerned.


I'm stating my opinion that if you want regional resources (like he seems to want) then deathporting is stopping that or hurting it so greatly it's infective.

Yup, what is it five or six times now you have said the same thing. Is this the back and forth you were talking about? What's the point again?


The last part at least I know you agree with.

Lets be VERY CLEAR, I do not agree with ANYTHING you advocate (in principle). I agreed with a hypothetical situation where this effected that and that effected something else. I don't see where it's practical to give opinions on those kinds of situations with any expectation.


Not listed in the suggestions by Xsyon that I think is a good option is leaving a grave that lasts for like 72 hours. So it would be 100% item drop and you would need to get all your inventory and gear off the grave. Now I've heard how people don't like this and they think back to the old "EQ" days of running back for your grave. So I've not said that either how might not want to do that.

I see this as nothing but fantasy at the current time and redundant.


I do not see why later down the road would be good to change deathporting.

Of course you don't, you have nothing but your OWN version of the game rattling around in your skull and that's all you ever see or hear --I'm sorry, that's sad.

I suggest you pm me your email address where we can continue a lengthy, continuing and for you disappointing correspondence --because I'm sure Xsyon does not want it cluttering up his forums. And remember, right now we are using your theory of posting.

[MrDDT]

Also showing that if you do 1 thing you will likely need to do another first.



Which assumes everyone else including the Dev is a moron, incapable of making this conclusion for themselves.



I'm happy you came to that conclusion also. Glad the main point I was making is seen.

[thurgond]

Final note, I think no matter what the option, punishing people that choose to die vs live should be the end goal.

That's the crux of the matter. You want to punish players who don't play the game the way you want them to. I'd like to see more players playing and could care less how they do it if they don't grief me. Already too many new players hug the shores of the lake and rush to build walls they can hide behind. Exploring and interacting with other players are the best parts of this (and any) MMO. Too harsh death penalties will hurt trade, server population and ultimately Jordi's bottom line.

[Xsyon]

I think the death porting issue has been fully discussed at this point. I'm going to weigh in real quick with my opinions.

Death porting is not something I designed or intended. In the very original design of Xsyon, when you die you would have death penalties and revive near your body. Infirmaries would allow you to revive in a nearby town with reduced penalties for a fee.

The current use of death porting is one of these things that I'm usually the last to hear about. :-) I am, and have been aware of it for a while now, but aside for facilitating trade and movement of larger building materials I don't feel it's having a major impact on the game right now.

I do think, however, that it breaks immersion and deviates from the game that I originally designed and would enjoy. Like the previous multi-story building tricks, it's something that veteran players take for granted as part of the game, but new players don't know about. Long time active players use death porting as a solution to carrying large loads across great distances. New players have the same problem without the solution (unless they join larger tribes or are informed by a friendly player). This creates an imbalance.

What needs to be addressed is the root problem - transporting heavy building materials from one side of the world to another.

I did want to implement death penalties while the infirmary was a new addition.

I understand that some players want inconsequential penalties so that they can continue to use death porting.

The reason for death porting is transporting heavy materials across large distances.

This root cause needs to be addressed first!

At this point, I will hold off on death penalties until my work on creatures is done. The creature update will include mounts and I will see about implementing larger carts pulled by mounts shortly after. This is going to change how materials are transported and I will look into further revising the scavenge tables at that point (including removing object / material combinations that are not really necessary).

Thanks for all the feedback! These type of discussions help me get to the core issues.

[wastelandstoic]

The reason for death porting is transporting heavy materials across large distances.

I can only speak for myself here, I have no data on how anyone else plays the game being mostly a solo style player. Yes, a good while back once I realized I could move hvy loads with deathport, I did. But my play style has changed in the past year. I am much more of a casual player than when I first started (always in this category, more so now). 99.9% of the time when I now use deathporting it is in situations like this:

I log in and decide I'd like to visit the other side of the map, since I have not been there in months. I know that I can explore all the way there and then take a deathport home. If that option was not available I would not leave my tribe in the first place as I have limited play time and a more limited attention span with the game in general since I have been playing for so long. It is highly likely that with no deathporting (or no means of fast travel across long distance) I would decide that the game had become to restrictive for me and move on. If this is a player opinion that you believe is very rare and virtually no one else shares it, ignore it. If you find that others share it, perhaps a more creative solution can be sought --that is if you are amendable to the idea fast travel.

Off the top of my head, putting a gauge on the encumbrance bar, like the energy bar, that tells you the percentage of encumbrance and then setting a max allowable load where fast travel upon death would be acceptable, say 20% as an example. At death a yes/ no choice would be given to drop all weight to the minimum and rez at tribe OR keep all weight and rez. in place.

Something along this line would solve the hvy load issue and still allow quick transport back to tribe. If you have the same immersion problem with fast travel without hvy load as you do with the current deathporting then it is most likely that I am also being redundant.

Thanks

[Darkkmercy]

I think most of the info here we need to remember to balance game theme/concept with also realizing this is a game. Sure it might sound neat to perma die no stats no gear but its gonna keep away 95% of players and then you would have a hoard of noobs attacking 1 high level destroying months if not years of work. Who had fun there? the trolls that will play 2 months?

Also you have to balance high and low level effects - I'm a new player to xsyon (over 15 years in sandboxes) so if I lost 10% durability every time I die with a cash repair system I'd lose 50% durability of my gear before finishing terraforming.

I think a mixture of
cash lost sat 1% pve 5% pvp with cash being in a characters inv not as a carried item but as money like most games as for insurance they can store the cash in totems or houses thus minimizing the risk of traders out and about / raising pvp rewards of finding hundreds of dollars under a mattress
temporary stat loss I'd say 1-5 mins for pve 10-20 for pvp to stop rapid revive defenses but not feel like you have to wait 30mins to return to work on something or harvesting
experience loss - 5% for pve 10% for pvp - would hurt but not end players fun

in the end I think a mix of pro cons could also work as when the comfort system is added dieing hurts so would pose a penalty to happiness later as well as a boost if you have survived (insert number of hours) time without getting eaten- while some of the above ideas are interesting I think it would lower the possible amount of people playing without adding allot to the game. Also no I don't want to make the game easier but easy and accessible are not the same thing, a challenging game that people can try new things is far more fun then a really hard game you stick with tried and true methods cause your to afraid of trying something out of the box. Lets face it this is a sandbox if no one tries new ideas it won't grow so making people paranoid isn't going to help.

[MrDDT]

Darkmercy, I understand a new player might lose over 50% dura on your gear before finishing terraforming, however, don't forget the ease and cost that gear is worth.
You could go scav for 10mins and buy 2 sets of gear as a new player. As a vet, it would take you weeks to scav the money needed to replace the gear they have.
I think 10mins of "farming" for gear is not much needed to replace and be "punishment" of death every few days or weeks.

What needs to be balance is how hard something is for everyone in the matter, and balance it to that. I do know that rewarding people for death, is not good for the game.

[Pwnuts]

Darkmercy, I understand a new player might lose over 50% dura on your gear before finishing terraforming, however, don't forget the ease and cost that gear is worth.
You could go scav for 10mins and buy 2 sets of gear as a new player. As a vet, it would take you weeks to scav the money needed to replace the gear they have.
I think 10mins of "farming" for gear is not much needed to replace and be "punishment" of death every few days or weeks.

What needs to be balance is how hard something is for everyone in the matter, and balance it to that. I do know that rewarding people for death, is not good for the game.

I would even say it will make the last ppl leave. we are currently in a stage where we should consider how to get the game to a success, not how to avoid ppl. but its xsyon's concept and he will do what he think is right.

[Darkkmercy]

Darkmercy, I understand a new player might lose over 50% dura on your gear before finishing terraforming, however, don't forget the ease and cost that gear is worth.
You could go scav for 10mins and buy 2 sets of gear as a new player. As a vet, it would take you weeks to scav the money needed to replace the gear they have.
I think 10mins of "farming" for gear is not much needed to replace and be "punishment" of death every few days or weeks.

What needs to be balance is how hard something is for everyone in the matter, and balance it to that. I do know that rewarding people for death, is not good for the game.

I feel like what I posted versus your reply doesn't quiet match up so just to make sure we are on the same page

I said that a 10% loss in gear in a cash based repair system would push many new players away - so a hybrid system of resource repair + cash repair for higher QL tools would be a better system this would allow new players the ability to quickly repair low level tools and not need to search for cash / shops / and spread out farther in the world earlier in game instead of hunkering down around the start zone - we had a very similar problem in wurm online since the new people had to buy the stuff from the start zone and it could take people 2-3 hours of running to return and get home they had to stay close creating a massive over stacking of players in start zone

so I recommended
durability loss on equipment - equipment under Quality 50 (or even lower say quality 30) is resources only +50 players have to spend cash making high level gear harder to maintain while not punishing new players but pushing up the challenge to keep really good gear in peek condition

a Loss of carried cash 1-5% (pve/pvp) meaning high level players who don't store cash somewhere when hunting will take a much bigger hit then new people giving some wiggle room for new people to die and learn the game without feeling like they are being clubbed to death and giving up - without new blood they game won't grow and these games have enough complex challenging issues without making noobs feel stupid about a bunny killing them and them losing half their gear

stat loss for 10-20 mins long enough to make players feel it but not enough to make them really rage out for multi dieing

experience loss 5-10% of the bar depending on pve versus pvp - this could mean a big difference for new to veteran players as it could be mins to hours depending on scaling

also not sure where the whole rewarding people for death part came in cause I was trying to balance the losses so new people don't quit but the veteran players don't get torn to shreds to protect the noobs gameplay

Edit
Also please explain how I can spend 10mins and get 2 sets of gear

[MrDDT]

How do you spend 10mins or less to pay for 2 sets of crap gear?

You say, I have 300 dollar bills, can someone make me a couple of sets of low QL leather armor?

New players start with super crap crap gear. Meaning any crafter could spend 5mins and make 2 sets of gear, heck most people toss out dozens of that level of armor every day.
I know I deleted 1000s of baskets of crap armor. If someone wanted to pay me 300 dollar bills for a basket of armor, I would gladly take it and be happy that I didnt have to delete it.

High end vet gear is a full other story. But if you need or want highend vet gear you should know how to play better and be able to get money faster than a new player.

How do you get 300 dollars in 10 mins? You walk around on a scav pile and click the scav button for 10mins.
Or better yet, you ask people if you could make money off them for doing a task they might want done, like making wood blocks or picking up grass. All of which also trains up skills and gets green points as a new player.
Wow what a system. Something where everyone wins for trading and economy.

[Darkkmercy]

your information seems to be out dated as first off after 7days in game 2-3 hours a day scavenging off some really big piles I have 100 dollars at around 12-14 hours not 300 after 10mins

2nd this really doe not cover any other issue you basically just mocked someone for no reason you didn't go over the info you didn't even read my post which is obvious cause you are not even talking about the same thing as me you just said its not fair and get over it

I've been gaming online now 22 years been a sandboxer for 15 years I understand the basics of economy and trade but your info does not match the in game experience and your responses don't match what I'm saying I'm not sure if your just getting lost in translation or your just upset about something but you need to reread the info and cover it not just be ass for someone asking a legit question

[Darkkmercy]

also this is a suggestion forum either A go over why my suggestion won't work or B state a better way but don't try to talk down to me like I'm some idiot - it won't work - now lets try to keep the suggestions flowing and on topic so we can work and help the game grow and expand not attempt to flame each other

[MrDDT]

So I made a new toon like you said, with 5 skill. Within 10mins I had over 500$, plus tons of items I could sell for 1000s like blueprints and stuff.
Also FYI, zero fails on scavenging.

Not sure how that is talking down to you, if you felt that way I'm sorry. I didn't mean it to sound like I was talking down to you whatsoever.
I believe the economy is failing for many reasons a major part is that people have no drive in the game to do anything, there is no urgent death, there is no huge monster boss that people need to stop. The world isnt going to blow up if you don't defuse the bomb. =)

Add in the fact that people feel that if someone is missing something they should give it to them. I find that people want to earn it and be part of making it better. Not just have someone hand them it.

[wastelandstoic]

So I made a new toon like you said, with 5 skill. Within 10mins I had over 500$, plus tons of items I could sell for 1000s like blueprints and stuff.


http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238157980_scanners_-_head_explosion.gif

Dark, just some friendly advice, ignore everything this guy says. He's playing a different game.

[MrDDT]

Why do you say that? Do I need to make a video to prove it?

It's really sad that you will never fix this game if you do not recognize its flaws.

I've put more hours into this game than most people, likely more than anyone currently playing, saying to ignore me is really said. I've also updated the wiki likely more than any non guide.

Fact, you can get 300$ in 10 mins or less in this game as a new player with 5 skill scavenging. You don't have to get "lucky" to do it either. Dollars are extremely easy to get.

On the topic of death, a new player losing all their gear is not a major issue as it is very easy to replace that level of gear. Having said that, I also believe there needs to be more goals and direction for people to want to do things. Like building a village.

[Darkkmercy]

yeah I'm just gonna restate this isn't a economy discussion its a revive discussion

you as a player of years may/may not be finding hundreds of dollars but the rest of us are not so its a invalid search - I'm talking the average normal player

this is why I wanted the damaged equipment is fine but it needs low level (30ish) with only resource requirements to repair and mid level and high level with money - this really won't effect the economy since low levels will not be buying high grade stuff for a week or more so by then they will be making 40+ stuff by then and needing the cash so without them feeling over whelmed early game increasing both supply / demand on the trade system

also as for giving people stuff I've only gotten 1 helmet because I helped kill the coyote and showed the hunter where several others were - I did get offered a cart ( low level basic one) simply cause my neighbor was grinding them and I'd helped him with some stuff - any high level items were sold to me (buying a high grade cart for 2500 bricks) not handed to me

I'm assuming your server is war since I've never seen you so the rules / info may differ


however this still is about the revive system not the other systems being working / broken

so in simplest terms my suggestion was

10% durability of a item lost with resources being used for under Quality 30 - over 30 resources + cash used
5% cash lost in pve 10% lost in pvp unless stockpiled somewhere like a town bank
10min stat reduction (figure 25% stat reduction)
20% exp loss

also to help even out early game to help newer players there could simply be buffs that reduce food/water requirements as well as death penalties - this will give them say 7 days to get used to the game before they start losing gear letting them learn a bit before having to worry

[MrDDT]

I understand you are new to the game might not understand some of the systems in the game. Like new players can not die from lack of food and water. So they already have that system in that you are asking for.

Again losing gear that is next to worthless is very easy to recover. Getting new gear is very very easy and fast. It's not going to rain free items easy, but I could wonder the world for an hour and likely find 100s of gear sets that new players can use. Sadly, there is no reason as a new player to even use gear other than tools. It even hurts you to have the gear not help you. Which is another topic.

The problem is lack of understanding of what new players need to do, and their drive to do it. If wearing clothing was needed (as one might expect) then I can understand your concern. However for new players wearing ANYTHING (or having anything on them) that is not 100% needed at that moment in time or for whatever they are looking to currently due, is not a good idea. You A)can lose it, and B) it weighs you down greatly.

Back to the main topic about death. Death should be a punishment and it should be felt. Using resources is a good idea to repair, expect the fact that again you are promoting solo only play and people to just do whatever and get it for free. Instead of driving players to survival and banding together to achieve great things.

PS. I can play on both servers the rules are the same with that type of scav system. However, I did the test on PEACE server.

[Darkkmercy]

no the systems pretty similar to ultima online / star wars galaxies / and wurm online and is simpler then The Repopulation (no crafted towns mostly prefab structures sadly in repopulation) pretty simple to grasp to be honest once you have played similar games and since I've been playing sandboxes around 18 years since before the name of sandboxes the systems pretty easy for me to grasp - however also having been a volunteer and paid admin / gm for games as well as training several thousand players I know what to expect about peoples wants / what they are willing to do early game before rage quiting

as the system goes scaving different piles have different rates of materials and after scaving everything within 2-4 hours jog from me and my cart I've still not found 500$ in 2 weeks of spending 1-2 hours a day scaving - the people in the game I've spoken to also don't find this amount - and since carts are 200$ for a basic one and take more then 10mins to build why would they sell them? why would you waste time making anything if you can just earn thousands a hour? my only concept is either you are using some way different way of scaving or are using some exploit or just making up numbers

its like we are talking in different languages cause what I'm writing and what your responding to isn't quiet the same

this is your response
Back to the main topic about death. Death should be a punishment and it should be felt. Using resources is a good idea to repair, expect the fact that again you are promoting solo only play and people to just do whatever and get it for free. Instead of driving players to survival and banding together to achieve great things.

this was what you responded to
this is why I wanted the damaged equipment is fine but it needs low level (30ish) with only resource requirements to repair and mid level and high level with money - this really won't effect the economy since low levels will not be buying high grade stuff for a week or more so by then they will be making 40+ stuff by then and needing the cash so without them feeling over whelmed early game increasing both supply / demand on the trade system

so if you read this you will see the initial low level tools are resource only - but as progression of higher quality tools go they need more and more help - thus to maintain large amount of good gear you need a large tribe as they will need to replace parts if its broken or damaged over X%

2nd I was more worried about stamina then death for new players

3rd after around 12-24 hours of wandering I've scavenged a few items from towns mostly resources for construction - have not seen hundreds of barrels of tools / cloths

and I'm pretty sure a multi staged death penalty is a punishment your losing item quality - xp - skill points - temp skill loss - and money - I mean other then perma death or sucker punching a character I don't see how much more punishment you can get - I mean compared to your response of item loss with cash insurance this is a far larger punishment.

[MrDDT]

Don't you think making it resource to fix your items then changing it to $ to fix them would confuse people? Plus cash later as a vet is next to worthless and resources are much more of value. So really, you are costing the new player more than you end up costing the vet which seems really backwards to me. Which I understand that at the time the cash is harder for a new player to get than resources, but resources are harder to get for a vet.

But yes, your system will work other than the confusing part and making it seem backwards to me.

Why I say it's backwards is that vets use 1000s of resources a day, and very little cash at all.

[Darkkmercy]

once again

not cash OR resources
CASH + resources at higher levels

however if you want simple - drop a item 1 level per repair meaning people have to buy / build new tools if they want the shiny bonuses

also items lowered to broken status will need a replacement piece randomly selected

also while people might use less cash long term - if a new player has zero access to money till they randomly find a stack of cash they can't repair a tool - and since many tools need 5 other tools to make that most players won't have access to for 1-3 weeks depending on how much they play it can handicap a new player very quickly

also I'm looking at similar games for repairs such as wurm online - the repopulation - and even some more standard games for ideas

for instance in wurm online you could improve completed tools which upon repair degrade the quality of the tool then it has to be improved again - this is a viable idea but requires much more coding and work so while good its a bit of a distance coding wise

the repopulation uses generic repair kits for each part - and has a chance to lower the quality per use of one - so you can quickly make your favorite item worthless if you over use it without a replacement nearby - you then have to take it apart toss the bad pieces and remake it with new parts - once again a fun viable system fair for all levels but very code intensive

other games generally use a more generic specific resource is used in repairs - such as the forest uses tree sap to repair things - or diablo's full money system

now while all these are good ways of doing it - its all about is it good for THIS game and how viable is it for a small team to make quickly and implement

I think the biggest problem is the death penalties is without knowing repair systems / improve tools functions / will broken tools be fixable? / and how much work is the dev willing to put into a idea its a bit of a snowball of confusion

I think the big question is - what systems do we need in place to make a viable death penalty system - I mean I'd start with basic xp loss - as it seems the easiest to code - then move into a decay of tools function which of course would need a repair system (a big big needed thing) - also you could do a cash loss but once again a brand new system needs to be placed

in the end I think so many new systems will have to be made we need to decide which is needed FIRST over which is the best / most fitting for xsyon

[chojinuk]

yeah I'm just gonna restate this isn't a economy discussion its a revive discussion

so in simplest terms my suggestion was

10% durability of a item lost with resources being used for under Quality 30 - over 30 resources + cash used
5% cash lost in pve 10% lost in pvp unless stockpiled somewhere like a town bank
10min stat reduction (figure 25% stat reduction)
20% exp loss



10% Durability loss - I presume you are referring to equipped armor ?

and I presume you mean quality rather then durability ?

High end armor is very very difficult to replace, so any loss of quality would have to be 100% repairable.
(Im talking about armor made with 100 quality and 100 power mats)

So im not really infavour of having armor reduced in effectiveness.

Besides armor is already being reduced in quality each time it is hit.
So that idea is in game already, so much so that players who have really
good armor dont even wear it now because it cannot be replaced.

5% cash - you mean cash carried on the player rather then the hoard the player will have back at their tribe ?
so players will carry little or no cash around with them to avoid this

10 min stat reduction ? this one is quite bad because no one will want to wait 10 minutes after being killed to go hunt again so I am not in favor of this idea at all. I wont go back to hunting with a 10% stat loss.

20% exp loss? I presume you mean the green points bar. not bad, its easy to replace (if you dont keep dieing, and doesnt affect the players ability to get right back to hunting. ie no stat
loss or gear damage. The last thing Xyson needs is a mechanic that stops players from wanting
to play.


I have referred to armor for the quality loss but in some of your posts you are talking about tools or are you referring to ingame mechanics as tools rather then say a ingame tool like a hammer ?

Sark

[chojinuk]

To stop deathporting you need to make using a cart more attractive in the first place.

Not penalise people for deathporting.

Make a loaded cart weigh a set amount regardless of whats in it
or if that is to much carrot.

make a fully loaded cart thats really heavy slow your run speed down 50%
a light cart say 10% and the weights inbetween can be % incremental upto 50% slower

so players will want to run a full cart rather then deathport as it only lets you
move 2 baskets worth.

Sark

[MrDDT]

I agree with you Sark, its a multi issue subject. Removal of deathporting IMO is the start but before you do that you also need to have other things in place with that patch. Like better working cart/mount system.
Anothing thing I would like to see is maybe a rail system around the lake. Faster travel. Make it toll use only (1000$ per trip).

There are lots of ways to do it, but punishing deathporting needs to be in place without breaking other systems. Making it too hard on newer players and making it too hard on vets is not the answer there needs to be ideas and balances in place.

[Darkkmercy]

10% Durability loss - I presume you are referring to equipped armor ?

and I presume you mean quality rather then durability ?

High end armor is very very difficult to replace, so any loss of quality would have to be 100% repairable.
(Im talking about armor made with 100 quality and 100 power mats)

So im not really infavour of having armor reduced in effectiveness.

Besides armor is already being reduced in quality each time it is hit.
So that idea is in game already, so much so that players who have really
good armor dont even wear it now because it cannot be replaced.

5% cash - you mean cash carried on the player rather then the hoard the player will have back at their tribe ?
so players will carry little or no cash around with them to avoid this

10 min stat reduction ? this one is quite bad because no one will want to wait 10 minutes after being killed to go hunt again so I am not in favor of this idea at all. I wont go back to hunting with a 10% stat loss.

20% exp loss? I presume you mean the green points bar. not bad, its easy to replace (if you dont keep dieing, and doesnt affect the players ability to get right back to hunting. ie no stat
loss or gear damage. The last thing Xyson needs is a mechanic that stops players from wanting
to play.


I have referred to armor for the quality loss but in some of your posts you are talking about tools or are you referring to ingame mechanics as tools rather then say a ingame tool like a hammer ?

Sark

going down the list

first armor reduction wouldn't be as big of a deal since repair would be in place BEFORE this was implemented - so your armor will be temp reduced by death then repaired

5% cash would need a new cash system where dropping it in a container is not available only a deposit in totem bank for say for a 0-5% fee

10mins is pretty standard mmo timers in most games of this type

and exp loss at 20% while not bad and replaceable is still better then other options such as permanent skill loss like other sandboxes

also they really just need 2 things to stop death porting - fix it so you can not carry over your max weight - stopping 2500 bricks from being ported - and carts with animals on them so they can move around with large amounts of supply's easily - same would go for some kind of raft that you could sail to waters edge to pick up goods and move them down rivers to carts on shore removing a large run around the lake for players and letting shops on shore become more viable

[MrDDT]

That's a good idea about the not able to carry over your weight however, it causes issues in basic play.
I suggest there is a temp bin for all toons. In this bin is dropped on death but you can carry unlimited weight with normal weight effects.
While building and crafting sometimes you need to carry over your weight limit. Just think about people with 5 STR. Wouldn't even be able to play.

Carts being changed is a good idea, with animals and changes to how they work would do wonders.

Armor that is fully repairable would be a waste of coding IMO. It wouldn't really punish anyone even if you made the cost really high. Major reason is the fact you can just take your armor off and deathport.

5% cash again would be a waste of coding time as you could get around it. Few people carry cash anyways and no one would feel this effect.

Temp stat loss is more of those non fun factors that have no real effect on the game other than to stop people from playing for X amount of time. Which is not what you want. Encouraging people to stop playing is a bad system IMO.

20 skill loss again wouldn't have an effect or it would have an effect as stated about temp stat loss. Neither are good.


Items in Xsyon were meant to be replaceable. Meaning like in old UO they would break over time no matter what you do. The changes need to happen where players want to use good armor/tools/weapons more but they still break/wear out often enough that people are not crushed when they do. They also need to be replaceable in a smaller amount of time than other MMOs like WOW where you work for 1 piece of gear for weeks or months to get it.
Right now you can put weeks to make a top end piece of gear (that's not counting leveling the skills). Which I like but is hard to replace. If there was more need for this top end armor I think it would help drive people to do it also.

[Darkkmercy]

sigh I posted my responses but your not even reading half the info I just give up responding to you just like skim through it and leave half page of why it doesn't work

so lead follow or get out of the way but either leave a better solution or figure out how to make it work but stop restating info I already covered

for example I stated not once not twice but 3-5 times that to use the 5% cash loss you would need a new economy held cash system so unlike a item its carried standard like most games and would not be able to just randomly be stuffed in a crate but a new bank system allowing players to place it in and retrieve it from a small cost would be implemented

also who the hell has 5 starting str - WHO I've not met one person who has started with under 20-50 starting str I mean thats not a building issue that is a issue between the keyboard and chair also you can't even drop the stat to 5! the game stops you its not even possible

also I played wow I've never once worked more then 5 days for a piece of gear and I've got 6 maxed characters - I mean wow is a crafting joke in the mmo world how on earth do you think it would takes MONTHS to do this

and I played ultima online to they did implement a repair system which is still in all versions but the hard core no expansions one they run for old old players

[MrDDT]

Not sure how you can say you did not work more than 5 days because the raids are weekly with lockouts so unless you got your piece of gear EVERY raid you did the first time, you had to work more than 5 days to get it.

I agree about the cash issue, and I'm still stating that it would take more coding than it's worth. All in all I would LOVE a cash system to be the end all be all of repair. But because the system (as you stated) doesn't work well can't really ask for that yet.

Who would do a 5 STR stat? Well if no one does a 5 STR stat, then something is wrong with that system also. But even at 20 or like me 155 STR you would still have issues of crafting stuff. Trust me, before they lowered the basic weigh of items AND increased the STR effect of weight, people were upset about it all the time.

Yeah UO changed it, and Xsyon wanted to make the system in Xsyon like they did before that change in UO.
I also happen to think its better for economy to have items break.

[znaiika]

You should add different options to resurrection.
1) resurrect at the spot, you don't loose anything.
2) resurrect at your totem and apply penalties DDT explained in #11 post
I would love to loot cash from revs, will give something to hunt for, and please remove revs from the world when killed and respawn a new one.

[Darkkmercy]

actually the new creation system stops people from getting to 5 stats any more

and I agree the cash system would take time but that's why I said we should make a list of 5 debuffs for respawning and list them in importance then again in time to code

I mean if you wanna just go with instant stop you could just do drop all non worn items stopping the death port but it would suck for the players to run 2 hours around trying to find the bag the items dropped into

the biggest problem death port isn't so much the issue of respawn as a lack of high speed transit for moving items if I could get a cart with animals or a barge to move large amounts of items people would want delivery of those items or setting up trade stations near water to pick them up themselves increasing economy - BUT that would take allot of coding to add a huge new system - but does this effect respawn? no not really

the main problem is this is about death and only death - not porting - economy - or crafting

what would hurt you for dieing without making you rage quit this is the question at hand - the rest of those questions can be in a different post

[MrDDT]

I disagree the main problem is about death and only death. Death is already in the game. There is no problem with "death". The problem is death has no meaning, no punishment, no effect. In fact it's abused to transport items. On the PVP server to transport items we turn around and let the person kill is to take them home faster.

Systems of an MMO are linked and should be helpful and working for all systems. You don't just put in a disconnected system or event for no reason.

Making you "hurt" is going be by effecting economy, and or crafting, or skilling up, or many other options.

I agree a major part of the problem is the fact of moving items around is very bothersome. Also the fact that items themselves are very heavy in some cases to do anything with.
Barge for the lake, able to carry more with carts, mounts etc. All of these are options to help with the deathporting issue along with making the game more fun and realistic.
I have now idea how much coding it would take but I do no, the deathporting system is broken, always has been broken and hurts the game in many ways. People should not want to die.

[Dorsie]

Not that long ago nobody did death port because everyone used the exploit , transporting thousends of bricks , stones or whatever without getting encumbered. and now talking about broken system or whatever just shows clearly what mind some people in this game have :p

[MrDDT]

Not that long ago nobody did death port because everyone used the exploit , transporting thousends of bricks , stones or whatever without getting encumbered. and now talking about broken system or whatever just shows clearly what mind some people in this game have :p

Deathporting has been in the game since day 1. Not sure what you are talking about how nobody did it.

[Dorsie]

i was a bit unclear , what i ment is , it was not needed to transport 10k bricks in your bag , and absolutly not on pve where none could harm you anyway . to use it for a quick return home for any reason is another story

[MrDDT]

Right, it was never intended to be a transporting system. Yet it's used greatly by that.
Even when they had the trade fairs where Guides would teleport people, few people would care about the trade fair because they had deathporting was just as easy as a guide teleporting you.

Removing the deathport is much needed as a start to get things working. Will it fix everything? Of course not. But you have to start there.

[thurgond]

A couple solutions to the problems raised here recently.

To reduce death porting while overloaded, put in a 30 minute debuff where your encumbrance cannot be reduced from it's pre-death amount. This wouldn't penalize a normally encumbered players, but players trying to port a bin full of bricks would be nearly immobilized for a half hour.

To accommodate the difference between low and high quality armor, on death degrade the durability by a set amount rather than a percentage and increase the durability of Artisan and Master armor. This would have the side benefit of making Artisan and Master gear more valuable. E.g. make the average starting durability of basic/Artisan/Master leather 40/80/120 with lower values for grass or cloth and higher for bone.

[Wrath_Hobo]

Id say keep dollars as an optional currency it makes it more fun that way.
Exp loss sucks plain and simple. Im a cautious player so it deters me from going out on adventures and exploring. I think the best would be permanant stat losses until you get to an infirmary to fix up and item durability loss that is repaired using scrap metal or other materials and not money. Crafters could make repair kits which they could charge cash for or other materials => boosting player driven solutions and making the game feel more interactive. Those repair kits could get better and even provide some durability immunity for a duration giving another niche role in the intricate crafting system.

[Danfrey]

I am a little late to the party, but I would love to see any item that has storage slots drop on death. This would add a death penalty and eliminate death porting in one move. Leave the items where the death occurred so the player has to travel back to the location to recover the items. It would also alleviate the need to differentiate death types. Oops I forgot to drink. Now I have to figure out where I dropped that basket of salvage items.

[Hero]

I like the money idea, also having an account would mean i didnt have to keep sorting though bins to find my dollars lol

[Sleipnir]

bump :cool::cool::cool:

[aulus]

I like the idea of item duration loss, with added repair functions. As you stated this would help boost the economy requiring both new items and someone skilled in repair to fix my item for me.

Additionally I really like the temporary stat/skill loss but I don't think it's enough on its own. I'd like to see both of these implemented. The only problem with this option I see is gankers on PVP as this would make it even easier for them to kill me again and again, assuming they can find me.

[JuanReed]

there should be a better solution and lighter policy for this. some serious changes.

[AlvaroPi]

I don't like the stat or skill loss. I think that's overly punishing and not fun at all.

[johnwhick348]

but why some serious changes, is there anything wrong?