07/07/2015 - Melee Combat Recommendations?

[Xsyon]

Hello everyone,

As most of you know I am working on a complete revision to creature AI, path finding and variables. These changes will affect combat and I can revise combat considerably, if needed, while undertaking this big 'creatures' task.

Recently I've started to briefly check out games that players have recommended or have mentioned as being similar to Xsyon.

The melee combat that I've seen so far is unimpressive to me. The basic systems I've seen so far are:
- Abilities assigned to keys (1,2,3,4) as in Warcraft, typically with a most effective 'rotation'.
- Simple mouse click to swing and attack.
- Mouse click to swing and attack with additional key press abilities.

Our current system was coded mostly by two programmers brought on to create a more involved melee combat system similar to Mount & Blade. I do realize there are issues with the system, especially due to latency. With the current revisions in progress I hope to eliminate or at least greatly reduce the problems. Still, a complex system of directional swings and charged attacks may just not be realistic for a game with players connecting to one server from locations around the world.

So, at this point, I would like to hear from you players.

Are there any MMOs (in particular, sandbox MMOs) that have melee combat that you really enjoy? What aspects of these systems do you most enjoy? What aspects of these systems would you change?

For now I'd like to look at melee combat only and focus on fun PvE combat, but keeping PvP in mind.

Make some recommendations and I will check them out. Thanks!

[Kyosa]

For me the melee combat in Mortal Online was the best i ever had in a mmo.

You have an energy bar based on your stats, able to block or swing you weapon, and the energy bars goes down.
No more energy -> stop fighting or run away and your energy bar fills up again.

With mouse click and a key you was able to swing left or right, or block left or right.
Of cause hit and block rate depends on the weapon you have in left and right hand.

[Tefached]

Look into a game called "Life is Feudal: Your Own", their combat system is... interesting to say the least and far to in depth to explain it with just words.

There are a great many aspects of the combat in LIF that are appealing, and even more of them relating to PvP. If Xsyon would implement their combat system anywhere close to that game it would be impressive.

I am glad you addressed the issue that latency was a problem with melee combat, but in the new system will elevation be factored in at all? I would highly recommend putting a check in place that uses the Y axis... for obvious reasons. I would recommend the use of hit boxes (if they are already there, then their bounding boxes need tweaked), or at least a modified version of a RayCast system which would be relatively "basic" but a good starting point for an overhaul.

Anyway, definitely check out that game if you already haven't.


~ Tefached

[Pwnuts]

The melee combat that I've seen so far is unimpressive to me.

We could maybe change some charackter animations, and for sure fix the ranges of weapon types. but the combat isnt a big deal atm. creatures should work. thats all.

would like to see a bunch of skills back in te game we miss since about 2-3years. like polearms and such. maybe adding shields to the equipment slots whcih yould work additional to parry and block, also allow a player to protect the durability of his armor.
i'd rather see you keep the xsyon style than copy any other game.

[wastelandstoic]

While I go through periods of trying out other MMO's nothing I have ran across has kept much interest for me for several years. I enjoy xsyon's combat system and have become accustomed to it. I would hope any changes would be minimal to the feel that we have now.

I have not played Mount & Blade or Mortal Online but I did try LiF-YO. I had the opposite reaction than that of Tefached. Combat and character animations in general felt very stiff and much more restrictive that Xsyon. To me it seemed like the character graphic was a cardboard cutout with no real reactions to what was transpiring with combat or other interactions. I did play early after release and not very long so my exposure was limited.

If it's decided to reduce some of the directional range of attacks and on the fly charging for a simpler system, perhaps a high, middle low attack/ defense system with an adjustable slider for charge could benefit Xsyon?

I recently revisited the first MMO I played back in 1999, Asheron's Call, and while its graphics are period I do like many of the skills/ combat system mechanics. Here is a skill that effects combat attacks based on the level of attack -Hi, Med or low:

http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Dirty_Fighting

And, while I certainly don't want a WOW type multi-button punch-out, rotation some static added bonuses at the goal post levels in each weapon skill would be welcomed. (Also, a balancing of the blade and club skills with picks and axes so all are viable. And, yes, I liked all the other weapon/ defense skills that we use to have. Would love to eventually see swords as well.)

[MrDDT]

I think the best system to go would be a World of Warcraft typical style. 1234.
Due to the lag issues I've seen I believe this would be the easiest to go about changing into. I would much rather focus on other coding things than worried about lag and other issues that come with Mount and Dlade, LIF, and Darkfall/Mortal style combat systems.

Give us special attacks, and powers with faith. I'm not asking to jump around shooting fireballs. Just saying make some special skills and attacks.

[Whorlok]

A good System is from the old "AGE OF CONAN" fighting System with Combos or from the actually MMO "Elder Scrolls Online"

[treyu]

I think you are trying to bring an utopic combat system for the resources you have and the base game you already have built. Games like Darkfall or Life is Feudal have great non target combat systems, but they spent many many years creating a very complex netcode and related combat system to make it professional and responsive. things that in my opinion after following and playing Xsyon from the beginning, you can't achieve. it is not an insult or a critic, I am being realistic and I think you should REALLY be realistic if you want your game to succeed. Combat is one of the most important things to get into a game, and I am not sure you realize how much. All my guild mates and friends that tried Xsyon didn't like it due to combat. Building is great, graphics are acceptable for the scope of the game, terraforming is great, crafting is nice, harvesting too, but combat.... combat is one of the main focus of an mmo that has PvE (and of course PvP), so it needs to be a very polished, fun and profesional. Which is not at the moment, has never been and if you continue trying to make a very complex, non targeting and groundbreaking combat system with your resources, you will fail again.

I am glad you are trying to change it finally, so use this change to create the best possible combat system for the scope of your game, the complexity of all its features and the resources you have. Games with lot of complex things like Xsyon (terraforming, free building, moving animals, etc) need to be realistic and don't look for a very complex combat system cause it is no possible to achieve if you don't have lot of guys working on it and lot of resources. A simplier combat system is NOTHING WRONG, in fact it will be much better because if it is polished, it works and it is beautiful to see, people will have FUN. No one plays Xsyon because it has a complex melee system or non target combat, they play it and know the game for other reasons. BUT they critize it because of its combat, lag desync in combat and lack of PvP incentives (due to combat too...).

With all that in mind, and even if I hate target combat, I am realistic and I know they are easier to implement, easier to fix lag desync and make it a polished system, and given all the great features Xsyon has, a target combat won't do harm, in fact it could do wonders as you can add abilities, magic, combos, even combat classes or specializations much easier, as all it matters is creating abilities and its effects. In a non target combat, and more witha a complex melee system where you aim your arms with mouse, it is crazy to implement all this with an indie game like yours. So I would choose a target system like Wow, FF14, etc and build it more complex from there later on. beleive me, you will greatly benefit for that change, in PvE and PvP.

But if you really don't want a target system, then go with a soft-target system like Elder Scrolls Online, The Secret World (when enabling "aim" mode), NeverWinter Online, Dungens and Dragons Online, The Repopulation, Tabula Rasa... it is a great compromise between both systems. You are actually targetting, but the system makes you feel like you are aiming as you always need to put the aim reticule into the mob/player to "maintain" the target so hits/abilities are registered. This system (as well as a pure targetting system) is MUCH less heavy network wise, which will free up resources for the rest of the system in the code.

Yous actual combat system is unpolished, unprofessional, plays badly and it is not fun. It was a great idea to try, but failed due to bad implementation because a combat like that needs MUCH MORE resources and people working on it, why do you think games like Darkall, Mortal Online, Elder Scrolls, Mount and Blade had to make compromises in other features to bring that type of combat and took them years of work with lot of people just working on combat and tons of tests?

Don't listen to people wanting a very complex system like mount and blade, mortal online or darkfall, they are very complex for your game...... think just in creating a POLISHED, FUN and with GOOD FEELING combat both in PvE and PvP

Oh, and there should be ZERO excuses to have desync and lag after so much time. An MMO can't have it, more if you have a non instanced world. It is like openning a food shop and giving excuses to your customers because your food is in bad condition because you don't have freeze conditioning, which should be something intrinsic to your bussiness. Everytime I have read your posts saying desync is not a problem, or some players have it others dont, or it is an issue related to people playing from different parts of the world, I just think this game should not even exist. No players should have desync in combat, does not matter the excuse you want to take. Professional and released mmos DON'T have desync or they don't launch till its fixed. Stop working on building parts, terraforming, crafting etc and make a combat system with no desync, no lag, that works for everyone THE SAME and if you can't, change things and take compromises till you achieve it.

[MrDDT]

Well said Treyu.

[Xsyon]

Due to the lag issues I've seen I believe this would be the easiest to go about changing into. I would much rather focus on other coding things than worried about lag and other issues that come with Mount and Dlade, LIF, and Darkfall/Mortal style combat systems.

Have you experienced lag and desynch issues with those other games? If not, they are worth checking out to me. More info on this would be appreciated.

One reason I've started checking out other games is to see how they resolve desynch. As explained in the creature desynch thread, if a command like a jump or swing takes 500 ms to travel from one player to the server to another player (even ignoring processing time), there is a 500 ms visual delay between players.

There are definitely ways to work around this delay. For example, some games will send a command from a client to the server, the server then sends it back to all nearby players. This system does a much better job of synchronizing actions between players, but can feel sluggish for the client initiating an action. I believe that Darkfall does something like this with their 'momentum' system as it felt to me that actions were delayed based on my ping (the delay was more noticeable to me when connecting to a EU server).

[Xsyon]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. This does help me narrow things down as there are so many games out there to potentially check out.

I'm not trying to create the most incredible combat system out there, I just want to make sure it's fun and works well. As I stated I didn't write the problematic areas of the current code. (I did write the functions to calculate damage, wear on weapons and armor etc. and these are easy to adjust based on externally set variables). It's clear to me that the current code can easily be improved upon and I've been working on it. So far I've been focused on creature AI and path finding. I'm coming up on the attack code, so that's why I'm looking at other games to observe, compare and learn right now.

Thanks again. I have checked out some of these games a bit and will continue to do so. I'll let you all know what my thoughts are and most likely I will try out various options while working on this big update.

[MrDDT]

Mount and Blade is very ping/server dependent. Which is why they limit so many people to a server and people play on servers close to them like Couter-Strike or other FPS games.
So yes M&B is massively laggy both server and computer/range wise. Which can cause desyncs.

Darkfall and Mortal Online (both about the same combat systems) are very affected by pings, however, the server code is very well done and how they set up the game makes desync less of an issue but still an issue, mostly in ranged combat. Because of how their melee combat works. Desync is still an issue just not as great as M&B.

LIF is massive issues it's not even remotely ready to even talk about, they just starting on it. They also limit all sorts of stuff.

Which brings us to WOW style combat AKA "tab target". Desync is almost nothing of an issue here what so ever. Range checks are most of an issue (either target is in range or not, and looks weird when skills hit things as people are running really far out of range).

Elderscrolls Online did a really good mix of "tab target" and soft targeting. Sorta hard to explain, but you can tab to select your target, or you can fire when ready and hit the first thing in the way. It feels a lot better than tab target mode, but desync is not an issue much at all.

Hardest part of tab targeting would be the need to add many "power" or "special moves". You would need to think of like abilities or skills/powers that do something. Like thrust, lunge, feint, cleave, power attack, etc.
I think being that combat is still fun with tab target and not the main focus of being like an FPS style combat, there is no harm in going tab target. AKA WOW style.

[Xsyon]

Thanks, MrDDT. That's good information.

I was a bit thrown off by Treyu's comments about released MMOs not having desynch which you seemed to agree with. Every MMO I've played has some lag and desynch issues. What's important is how these are dealt with, reduced or covered up.

True, with tab targeting (especially with large ranges / hit boxes like most games have) desynch is rarely a noticeable issue.

Personally, I don't like Warcraft melee combat much, especially for PvP. For ranged combat, it's fine (and does make ranged combat easy). I will definitely check out Elder Scrolls.

[Pwnuts]

some simple skills like a bash would be nice. but i still would prefer to see the combat fixed first. even if we could make use of a bash skill with 30sec delay, i already see the boulder cliff-bashing abuse.

Maybe something pretty simple, since you are workinf on advanced weaponcrafting anyway. Two Handed weapons like an axe. way slower but more powerfull. would be a nice reward for ppl who grinded agility up and can fight well with a decent swing power.

[treyu]

Thanks, MrDDT. That's good information.

I was a bit thrown off by Treyu's comments about released MMOs not having desynch which you seemed to agree with. Every MMO I've played has some lag and desynch issues. What's important is how these are dealt with, reduced or covered up.

True, with tab targeting (especially with large ranges / hit boxes like most games have) desynch is rarely a noticeable issue.

Personally, I don't like Warcraft melee combat much, especially for PvP. For ranged combat, it's fine (and does make ranged combat easy). I will definitely check out Elder Scrolls.

Maybe I didnt manage to express myself good. You can have desync issues. The problem is having desync always and a bad combat system always. Every online game with non target combat (also target combat, but lets leave them for now) has desync as an issue. What I tried to say, is that games like Darkfall, for example, don't usually have them. You can have 50 vs 50 and you can play and feel a polished combat system always. Xsyon feels totally unpolished and incomplete combat wise does not matter when. There is no excuse to have desync in your combat system. If it has it, then change it to one that does not have it. Darkfall, Elder Scrolls Online, The Repopulation, The Secret World, World of Warcraft, etc all those games DON'T have desync or non responsive combat system in a normal day. They work fine almost everytime, you log in, play the game and don't have any issue. Maybe when there are many more people together in the same place than what there usually are, which is something punctual, but that is not the norm. For example, in Darkfall you can have 100 people in the same place and combat is fine. Sometines in big sieges with 100+ people some people have issues, but it is not always and on those conditions it is "understandable". But daily, while doing PvE, PvP, etc, there are no issues. Why? BEcause the combat system, and the netcode, are very complex, very tested and they spent lot of money and resources to create it.

Xsyon, on the other hands, always has desync when PvPing, and everyone knows that combat is wrong.

That is why I would create a simplier system. Elder Scrolls Online or The Repopulation aiming mode or The Secret World aiming mode or Dungeon and Dragons Online or NeverWinter Online would be great systems for Xsyon.

[MrDDT]

All games have desync, just some are less than others. Darkfall's desync is much much less than WOW, but WOW you wouldn't even notice is due to how the combat system works. Darkfall you have even just minor ones and you feel it.

Like Treyu is saying, you might have desync spotty here or there, less is better. Xsyon you ALWAYS have desync in the current combat system.

[azzymor]

There are ALWAYS issues with latency in a network (internet). The distance between the players and the server is what is causing the latency, and in this universe it is what it is, and will never be any better. In the beginning of game design the algorithms were quite bad at solving this fact and generally it was considered the less latency you had, the better the combat it would be. (old quake for instance).

Today the algorithms are a bit more capable and take latency into consideration when players go into "combat" vs each other or vs environment. In short both server and client is reset frame-wise and then start an exchange of messages with state updates. In between they both have to simulate actions which will then (upon an actual update) be interpolated into what actually happens, and then again predict->simulate->update->interpolate-> until combat is resolved.
What happens is the server/client hides the latency in prediction and interpolation which makes for a smooth experience, but which can yield extremely surprising results during longer periods of latency :)

I'm happy you start to dig into the combat, because in my opinion it is the most uninspiring thing about Xsyon. I can see (hardly) any similarities with Mount & Blade at all (a game I completely love). I hope you do what Treyu and DDT suggest, decide what should be possible to do in combat (strike, dodge, block, thrust ...etc.) and make those actions as generic as possible, polish it and make them work as smoothly as possible.

[Kyosa]

Give us special attacks, and powers with faith. I'm not asking to jump around shooting fireballs. Just saying make some special skills and attacks.

I think thats best solution, but i want to skill it up.

[Drevar]

Age of Wushu (yeah, yeah, I know...) uses a combat system that is way slower (in terms of input) than most games, yet the animations are long and detailed enough that it totally masks the "slowness". They are of course dealing with very fancy martial arts moves with distinct start and interruptable intermediate frames and not just a simple swing of the arm. Skills are limited to a 1 second cooldown between (so even if you spam the queue up, they are processed at one second ticks), and when coupled with elaborate animations give plenty of time for the round trip ping and time for the other player to recognize what move is coming and try to counter it with a parry or counter move.

They do still suffer problems in situations where there is a large delta between competing players' ping time, however, and some players take huge advantage (read cheat like bastards) of the client side prediction. Basically a super high (slow) ping allows you to move out of the way of attacks while the low (fast) ping client sees the slow guy teleporting all over and away from his attacks. All of the slow players attacks connect as the fast client acknowledges the hit nearly instantly, while the fast client misses a lot because the slow client has time to move out of the way before the "im hitting you now, are you there?" packet gets responded to. They seem to leave a lot of the trust for positioning up to the client side.

It is kind of hard to recommend a system other than WoW style faceroll 1-2-3-4 when we know that art/animation resources are quite limited.

I wonder how a UO style system where you have war/peace modes and just autoswing your basic attack when in range coupled with manual "special moves" would work? (Ranged weapons would be 100% manual.) This would be highly PnP RPG style depending mainly on skill checks and "dice rolls" rather than player skill. I don't know if you are willing to push that far away from a more interactive player based system like we have now.

[znaiika]

Elder Scrolls Online or NeverWinter Online did a good job.

[Kyosa]

Very interesting melee combat system in Mabinogi.
Mobs and players have enough time to choose their skills.
Playing as an EU on the US Server at at prime time and no lag at all.

Here is a tutorial for basic skills:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4FXm-9Jo58

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DusAX0AHtDY

[Bejaymac]

Keep it the way it is.

Combat in Xsyon is hard but simple and in a way similar to what you get in the real world, you have a big stick and you need to beat the crap out of your target before it does the same to you, this kind of combat takes skill, timing and a lot of luck.

Probably going to upset a few with this, but from the sounds of things most want a "fire and forget" combat system, or as I call it the lazy turd combat system, the kind where you get a bunch of skill combos, keybind/macro them in rotation, select your target, then hit a key and sit back and watch your toon kick 9 colors out of the target. No skill, no luck and very little timing required, and not to mention boring as hell.

[Pwnuts]

there is no luck needed, but timing and skill for sure. and i would like to see this combat in the future as well. not sure why we would need a change, anybody will cry about any combat we have anyway, anytime.

we need to balance the critters, not the combat itselt. basically the range of small mutants and mutant bears. animals who ignore surfaces, and keep the same speed all the time. and for sure the speed critters who run faster than a sprinting player and hit like 10 times per second.

we could implement more weapon skills like swords and polearms(again). i'm against ranged combat since xsyon kinda invite player to cliff any critter, and there is no challenge or unique mob anymore. even if 2 players just kite a enemy, they will get it down in a way where they do not get any hits.
i also think we could work on the charackters animation. there is no animation when a player recive dmg yet. only when he deal dmg. this could be changed for diffrent weapontypes again.
also 2 hand axes and a shield which support parry/block and players defense additional would be great.

anyway. i returned in november and i heard xsyon is working on the critters now. then we got plenty of new stuff and all the time we heard that the current projects are critters. i dont know if the critters topic is to complicated to change or if there is simply no real interest on it. we sould fix the stuff we have and not cause new problems with new implementations. i reported prolly 50% of the bugs in the past 6-8 month. not even all of them in the forum, some via ticket or with hidden threads because they are abusable. i dont really care for all the diffrent opinions and suggestions, but i accept what will come up in the future. i support the game (imo) in a way where it can work well, without issues, and i'm satisfied with the stuff we already have. but this stuff shouldn't annoy players, it should simply work. new players wont come and stay because we have more features to provide. a lot of players who try the game leave already for the reason that they get killed by a rat, or any animal which is not supposed to kill them, compared to reality - and xsyon is based on reality since years, most fixes and changes was to make things more real, soon we can push shortkeys and newbs still die on the rabbits.

at least but ot lost: improves are fine but please dont start copy a combat system of any other game, this is ultra dumb! xsyon is xsyon and not any other game, keep it this way. the combat here isnt really hard, just not similar with oter games, but pretty easy to learn. add a window with players abilitys like def, atk, hitrate and fix the critters, then we will have a way better use of time spend on development.

[MrDDT]

The reason I don't like the current combat system is because you can be hit in MELEE combat from 12+ meters away due to desync. Because desync can only be fixed so much, I suggest changing the system of combat.
Also, combat is extremely boring. You attack back up attack. Repeat until monster is dead. No skill or tactics outside of that is needed. I can kill ANY monster in the game without being hit due to this. Mean means armor is worthless for combat (oddly enough its useful for crafting) and weapons matter in only the amount of time not IF you can do it.
Combat should be more than walking backwards.

[thurgond]

Let me preface my remarks by saying I'm an older gamer that didn't grow up with playing 1st person shooters on home consoles. The home version of Pong came out about the time I hit the quarter century mark. Keep in mind that Xsyon's population does skew older than the hand holding theme park MMO's.

The only times I can kill anything without getting hit is when I can one shot something.

My biggest problem with the current combat system (ignoring my general lack of coordination and slow reaction speed) is that mouse look remains enabled in a combat system that requires holding down the right mouse button. In combat, mouse look is even enabled on the left mouse button, so I can't switch to using my weapon in the left hand.

Melee combat should have several valid tactics, even if some are situational. As it stands, the best strategy is to walk backward while fully charging your weapon and trying to time the opponent's strike. Picks/shovels are the best choice because their slow charge time is still shorter than the strikes of big game. Shorter charge times of blades/axes/clubs in no way off sets their lower damage and reach.

I'd be cool with not bringing a knife to a bear fight if there were some situations where blades were a valid option. Perhaps allowing a dual wield/double hit option with two blades. Making frequent hits interrupt critters would also make faster weapons a useful skill.

Options to make weapons different are stuns from clubs and staves, crits from axes, bleeds from blades and pole arms.

With or without major changes to combat, additional combat AI would really help make combat more than backing up. Current critter behaviors are run away, advance and the mixed run away/advance of dogs and cats. Having big game occasionally back up and then charge would also make combat more interesting.

The AI when several mobs are agro is also easily defeated by player's back up all the time strategy. Say you have several revs coming at you. You can see the revs that are not at the front of the beat down line trying to go wide to get at you, but the best they can do is occasionally get to the front of the line.

[Flashand]

New to Xsyon, however this is the one area that needs a significant boost. I hope it is simple to do, make the hit box bigger... Not just the head as this is sometimes a small area or is blocked by the body of the animal (most occurrences) so if there were 2 hit boxes on the creature not sure if that is doable, i dont code, one on the head (does more damage) and one on the body 1/3 damage of head maybe this wold work?

[verinor]

Mortal online and mount and blade combat style is great, 4-side blocking and attacking makes it really nice and simple, pretty much no abilities/skills aside some simple ones and not counting magic xD

[Azurfale]

Q: overhead swing left W: forward jab E: overhead swing right A: underhand swing left D: underhand swing right.

Switch movement controls to mouse.

[xyberviri]

I honestly i think Xsyon would have done better with a Active Time Combat system like StarWarsGalaxies or even AnarchyOnline.

Where:
1) The WASD movement was unlocked during combat and attacks were fired off on a active cycle between the Attack and a Cooldown for the next attack(and/or ability).
2) The attacks get canceled when LOS breaks or the target moves out of range, apart from that the server handles the skill RNG checks between both parties and resolves the outcome.
3) Special type attacks are put into the queue or fired off when the player hits the hotkey and have separete cooldown timers from the other special attacks and normal combat attacks.

In those type of systems there is "in combat" and "out of combat" mode where you just continue to attack what ever it is so long as you remain in range and with line of sight.

I have no problems killing bears, i have problems killing bears that are 10m away, aren't playing the attack animation and yet im taking damage, then suddenly zip over to my position.

[Wrath_Hobo]

Elder Scrolls online combat though laggy sometime is my favorite. you have the single and heavy attack with blocks as well. It also implements a few skills on the bar but not enough to make things too complex. You get to pick and choose based on your playing preference which in my opinion is the biggest draw as I fell my character is my own and not some cookie cutter build. The hit boxes are really awkard in that game though so the mount and blade elements and smaller hit boxes might fix that.

[Mithrilas]

Hello everyone,

As most of you know I am working on a complete revision to creature AI, path finding and variables. These changes will affect combat and I can revise combat considerably, if needed, while undertaking this big 'creatures' task.

Recently I've started to briefly check out games that players have recommended or have mentioned as being similar to Xsyon.

The melee combat that I've seen so far is unimpressive to me. The basic systems I've seen so far are:
- Abilities assigned to keys (1,2,3,4) as in Warcraft, typically with a most effective 'rotation'.
- Simple mouse click to swing and attack.
- Mouse click to swing and attack with additional key press abilities.

Our current system was coded mostly by two programmers brought on to create a more involved melee combat system similar to Mount & Blade. I do realize there are issues with the system, especially due to latency. With the current revisions in progress I hope to eliminate or at least greatly reduce the problems. Still, a complex system of directional swings and charged attacks may just not be realistic for a game with players connecting to one server from locations around the world.

So, at this point, I would like to hear from you players.

Are there any MMOs (in particular, sandbox MMOs) that have melee combat that you really enjoy? What aspects of these systems do you most enjoy? What aspects of these systems would you change?

For now I'd like to look at melee combat only and focus on fun PvE combat, but keeping PvP in mind.

Make some recommendations and I will check them out. Thanks!

I am partial to the combat system in Elder Scrolls Online. I think it would work good in Xsyon.

[lestat2150]

Jordi, I believe the games have already been mentioned. Elder scrolls, the repopulation, Neverwinter etc. etc....Anything that is active targeting and the ability to double tap direction keys to dodge would add IMMENSE enjoyment to the combat system. The game is already a blast just building stuff, if combat were improved, people would be even more addicted. I know its hard for me to pull myself off Xsyon and will usually sink 6-7 hours a day into it.

Games like Mortal and Life is Feudal are also good. Basically active targeting with the ability to hold the A or D keys to side swipe or swing upwards. This could be difficult though for casual gamers. So I think the basic style of active targeting with a reticule in the middle of the screen and just clicking the left or right mouse keys to attack like it is now is fine. I said in one of my gameplay videos that once you go to combat mode, the screen should zoom in a bit like an action 3rd person shooter with your character slightly to the side so the enemy is in the middle of the screen. This makes the combat more cinematic.

[Danfrey]

I am late to the party as usual, but I would like to add my two cents. I prefer my character's skills being the key to successful combat. Success shouldn't depend on my twitch abilities. I hate the move to action based combat in MMO's. Give me stats, modifiers, and a random number generator. If there is going to be targeted combat, just let me click where I want to hit the creature. The current swing system makes me stick to hunting fish.

[chojinuk]

I like the combat the way it is now.

I not even sure new players realise how it works.

Its a AIM and Swing system,

Unlike in WOW where the mobs have just one target and you click to select it and never lose the lock till its dead or till you click off it.

Xsyon is much more involved a large mob has multiple targets on different parts of its body. You have to aim at those parts and hit them with full swing power.

So fighting a small mob like a rat means you have to aim low. Im sure the reason why new players miss small mobs is because they havnt grasped the fact you need to aim your camera. Your toon will bend over to hit small mobs othewise you hit over it and miss it completely.

What I would change is make it a bit clearer where you are hitting the mob. The combat log is ok but a bit old school.

Id like to see something on the game screen as well as the comabt log, some sort of graphic effect that shows you which part of the mob you hit and for how much and the same for when a player is hit. Sort of like when you go into VATS mode in Fallout, the different targets of a mob are outlined. I dont mean slow motion just the visual effect of seeing which target you just hit.

I have no idea if this could be implemented in the game engine, I get the impression it that it couldnt.


I wouldnt like to see the wow style of combat in xyson.


Sark

[MrDDT]

There is no Z axis in hitting a mob, you don't have to aim up or down to hit it.

You can be standing on a wall and a mob at the bottom can hit you, same with PVP. A play can hit you even if you are 10 stories up. Which is also why you can not walk under another player correctly.

Yes you do need to aim side to side when you swing, but up and down you do not.

The main reason I want a change in the system is because to get the system working better you would need to code a lot of changes, and lag will still effect you.

Why reinvent the wheel? Xsyon isn't combat focused, so why not just bring in some basics to combat. Skills for attacks, healing system from other players and self healing (bandages), etc. Do something easy like a target based system which makes ranged combat super easy to code. Work on balances instead of trying to figure out a new combat system from scratch, when there is very limited coding and not even a main point of the game.

Just think of how long it will take someone good with coding to come up with a fully new system (Xsyon's combat is not like any other game really) all the while it's not working and a lot of coding resources are put into that place. Or do very fast easy coding on a system that's been around forever like a tab target system. Have it in place until a lot more coding time can be done for combat, if it even needs to change.

[Hero]

Here in UK i get 125ms ping, it means combat is almost unworkable for me invisible mobs kill me, people are running on the spot in front of me while actually behind me attacking me in the back and if i am loading a new zone and anything attacks im dead before i find out there is even a threat =(

[chojinuk]

Here in UK i get 125ms ping, it means combat is almost unworkable for me invisible mobs kill me, people are running on the spot in front of me while actually behind me attacking me in the back and if i am loading a new zone and anything attacks im dead before i find out there is even a threat =(

Maybe there is something wrong with your connection ?

I live in the UK also and my xsyon ping is NEVER below 140 and pve combat has always been fine for me.
occaisonally mobs rubber band but thats about it.

pvp combat is a little different as most players are in the usa and they get a ping of 30 to 40, compared to my slower 140.

Sark

[MrDDT]

Hero for sure sounds like a lag issue. But Sark you also have to understand this should never happen in a game. If someone is lagging that bad then other factors would prevent them from playing and need to get it fixed. You should be dead from invisible things and dead before you load a zone.

Zone loading has been an issue in this game from day 1. Also desync in combat is massive vs players, and vs mobs it's still an issue. Just as you said you can even see rubberbanding. A game with hitboxes and active parry will never work with these issues.

I can be attacked in PVP from over 12 meters away in melee combat when should only go about 1 to 2 meters away. This isnt just an issue with realism (I mean who can hit someone in melee from 3+ meters away?) but also playable combat. If I think I'm dodging someone because on my screen it looks like I am, but on their screen they are right up on my back hitting me. It's a major issue. This has been a problem the whole time.
I also feel like the playerbase for Xsyon is not going to embrace this style of combat so why worry about it? I think having a cross breed of ESO style combat would do the best for everyone. It gives the feel of action targeting combat with the issues of lag and desync going away.

FYI I also have a 5ms or lower ping to the server and I can see desync and lag. I live in Dallas, TX on a fiber 1000MB/s connection. Pretty sure the servers are now in Dallas, TX also.

[Hero]

Maybe there is something wrong with your connection ?
Sark
I have a fiber line of around 70mbps or something similar so if it is my line i am being robbed lol, i reset my pc and its a little better now and i dont know what Jordi did but my ping for first time ever has started dropping below 125 to 100 - 120 (usually a steady 125ms unless i leave tribe) so it IS improving :)

[Xsyon]

Thank you for all the suggestions. Over the past year I checked out combat in all the games suggested (that were still active) and many more.

Of the games I played, I enjoyed melee in combat in Elder Scrolls Online the most although I wasn't impressed by any system. Most games had much simpler melee combat than what's currently implemented in Xsyon.

What I'm doing Xsyon is setting up temporary options so that we can test various types of melee combat to see what is feasible and what works best. Once I'm ready for public testing I will open a new thread.

I'll close this thread now. Thanks again!