01/10/2016 - Feedback Request Return To One Server

[Xsyon]

Hello Everyone,

A return to one server (http://www.xsyon.com/project.php?issueid=2339) having a PvE / PvP switch has been requested. I would like your feedback on this.

I will consider this but it will require several conditions:

1) Closing the current War server will mean all tribes, towns and inventories will be lost. I could possibly copy character information (appearance, stats, skills and schemes) for players that request it but this could be a time consuming procedure.

2) I would not implement PvP and PvE zones, because that would require setting some zones to PvP that currently contain PvE player tribes.

3) PvP would be a choice or switch. I would have to think of the best and fair method to implement this and am open to suggestions.

4) PvP players would not have any advantage over PvE players. There would not be a possibility of PvP controlled resources or areas that would give PvPers an advantage. To implement something like that I would need to start up a separate PvP server again.

5) If siege and the ability to destroy buildings and ransack tribes is implemented in the future it would apply only to consensual tribes that agree to be PvP tribes subject to attack or as above it would require starting up a second server.

6) At this point, PvP would be consensual only and simply add risk, danger and excitement for those that want to participate in PvP.

7) Because of all this I would require a great majority of players to agree to this change. I would contact all players with characters still on the PvP server via email before making this change. For now I would like to hear feedback from players currently playing on both servers.

Note: I have a lot on my plate right now. Merging the server will definitely not happen until all the planned creature updates are complete.

Thanks!

[verinor]

Of course a big fat yes from me.

[millsdo]

It's a decent proposal. I do enjoy my toons and tribes on the PVP server though. I could be swayed either way.

[atmospharos]

ok
I've been playing since 2012 in Steelgard pvp is now my character ... and destroy all my work and that of others to create a shit pvp server option whether or not when I want ... is one Autentika shit .. close pvE server if it disappears the real pvp and many more ...... leave the safe game will be a shame but a true sandbox converted in the sims .... thanks


LONG LIVE TRUE PVP

[sMartins]

Currently I'm playing on the PvE server, however i'm agree with atmospharos....mixing PvE with PvP players is not a good idea at all, the game itself would lose its credibility.
A solution could be adding a feature that allow to duels, where both players must be agree, on the PvE server....at this way PvPers could join the PvE server and keep fighting.
On the other hand PvP server must be PvP only and everywhere as it is...and in future, siege and the ability to destory buildings and ransack tribes.

Not agree with PvP+PvE on the same server.

[MrDDT]

No, having deleted both my toon and tribe on PVE server to ONLY be on the PVP server. I surely would not want this at all. I removed my tribe on the PVE server for a reason.

Having a dysfunctional PVE/PVP server would do nothing in my eyes. Unless there are AREAS as stated before that have conflict (control objectives) that anyone in that area is open game for PVP. Not a switch /PVP on/off. That is the silly thing for PVP and all PVPers know this. What you really mean is duels because that's all it's really going to be used for.

As requested before make areas of PVP that have conflict control points that have a reward of some type for controlling them. I'm sure you can open up a few (10 or so) zones for this that no one lives at that would not be a problem.

PVP is dead because just like this post you want to crush PVP in the game. You have done NOTHING to support any type of PVP in the game only done things that hurt it. Now you want to make it so there is no PVP other than duels.

[Strands]

Theres a great blog article from Raph Koster (UO/SWG/Crowfall) in regards to "switch" PvP or PvP flagging:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/15/star-wars-galaxies-tefs/

A PvP "switch" is a good idea in my opinion and would be the one I vote for. This would allow the PvE'rs (majority) to continue playing as they already are and allow the PvP'rs (minority) to still exist/run events etc..and allow more players to occasionally participate (PvE'rs). I would assume this would also be the easiest route for Jordi to take development wise.

Creating PvP zones isn't a bad idea but again i would assume (im not a coder/programmer) implementation of a system like this would take much more effort adding objectives, timers, and whatnot. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, this could still be implemented even WITH a PvP Switch/TEF system. The two can coexist.

In regards to removing the PvP server...ugh thats tough. You've got some really dedicated people on that server and all those hours of hard work wiped would probably put the final nail in the coffin for them. While i understand its a low pop server, id keep it open until prelude is over.

I've written and deleted a reply to this thread about 4 times now. This isn't an easy topic. After much consideration to try to appease all three sides in this (PvE, PvP, Jordi/Future of Xsyon) i've come to the following conclusion: Jordi, don't waste your time on this right now.

Focus on implementing what you have planned, revamp combat and factions, and put this idea towards the end of Prelude development. Then Lets get out of Prelude, merge to a new Xsyon: Apocalypse server and toss the two current servers.

This is all my opinion, take it as you will. I dont want to sound bias towards PvE as i do enjoy PvP in a lot of games, I am just not a fan of OWPVP FFA rulesets and according to Jordi's statistics, i'm not alone in that mindset. I say we continue to discuss this topic through Preludes development and try to come to a decision prior to Apocalypse release that all sides can agree on.

[Bejaymac]

Closing War and adding a "PVP switch" wont change anything.

Most of us on Peace are there for the PVE, crafting and building, the only combat most of us want is hunting and killing Rev's, so for most of us the "switch" would be on PVE all the time.

New players/tribes might dabble in PVP until they come across the diehards and get ROFL-stomped, which is the problem most games with PVP and PVE find after a few years, the "uber elite" PVP'ers either bully or scare off the player base, Xsyon barely survived the first time, you wont a second.

I've been playing on the War server for several months now, and on what was posted in point 1 I can't see any way of saving my main or any of the QL 100+ gear I've aquired, and TBH I don't want to lose the character.

So for me it's leave things as they are.

[zyphora]

I think PVP server and PVE server should be left as is, at least for now. I think master weapons, combat and ranged weapons should be the focus. Without these things fixed does PVP really matter right now?

[wastelandstoic]

My vote is: Keep working on the In Development List. If a PvP switch can be fairly simply added to PvE server, fine the more options we have the merrier. But, a switch wont appease the 20 percenters nor should you, IMO, take the time to do so at this stage of the game.

[Mactavendish]

When I first started playing Xsyon it was one server, Open world pvp and I was ok with it, although Im not interested in pvp at all. What it did for me and the tribe I ultimately started was give us a reason to build walls and fortifications. So it added to the excitement of the game at that time.

But now on the pve server ( peace ), I cannot see how it would add anything to the game, considering where Jordi want to take the game. Eventually we will have the ability to create our own "events" in the form of adventures and dungeons on our own tribe lands built by us and ran by us the players ( not Guides ).

With that sort of future, Adding a flag to allow "Dualing" style pvp, would only add the potential of ganker style players trying to verbally inflame players into pvp duals. This will lead to a loss of pve players due to the shear irritation factor.

If you want more stress on the PVE server, I would rather see roving bands of revs that circle the lake looking for trouble. Or extend the range of larger animals to see bears by the lake on a regular basis.

My vote would be to put this idea on hold. Finish the animal revisions and maybe make the animals roam farther afield than they currently do to add some excitement and provide reasons for fortifications.

I would agree with the idea that if the war server got to where there were no active tribes it should be removed to make life easier for the developer.

[znaiika]

I agree on either creating pvp toon or switch to and from pvp by /pvp flag, no!!!! to pvp zones and advantages, if pvpers don't like it? pvp server and pve server should remain indefinite.
I would not mind if pve server would have an option for /pvp flag.

[Ooloo]

Hi

I am not a true vet but one that had learned the game quite well. My reason for not being active at this time is not because PvP is dead in the game but at a certain point there is just no more content that keeps me interested. Having farming come to fuition to me was the catch 22 between PvP and PvE.

Yes there is great advantage for a PvP'r to grow and make certain foods to gain a better PvP advantage but lets be honest here...PvP'rs dont want to farm.

I said it in a post long ago that if this were a real apocolyptic senerio that there would be people out there trying to survive by stealing and killing...to me this was part of the thrill of the game...i had to watch over my back...90% of the time i still died...but it was part of what the game was about.

I had left to play Archeage and was very pleased with the game mechanics and how PvP was done but the cash shop there ruined the game. I am currently playing a totally PvE game but see the same senerio there as Xsyon pve....these are MMO's yet everyone wants to be solo heroes. Content needs to be in place not to force but to keep an MMO what it stands for. people need to come together...work together to accomplish stuff.

Now as for the feedback subject at hand.

I like PvP but im horrible at it. If ANYTHING is attempted to return to a single server containing both PvE and PvP...first the combat sync needs to be fixed then i would agree to what the remaing vets have now mentioned with the formost objective is to keep honing the game and get rid of the PRELUDE title.

I will help keep Oasis alive by logging in but untill there is either more content...IE roaving bands of revs or animals that can destroy the lego buildings OR the one server with both PvP and PvE is implemented...i will just keep hoping a well rounded game is made.

Gruu/Glorp/Mookie

[Taraniel]

I started playing Xsyon when there was only one server. When the servers split I went to PvE and played there for quite a long time. I went to PvE because I was tired of the griefers and harassers that were running rampant on the single server. The people in PvE by and large shared my feelings about PvP and were very happy there.

Two months or so ago, the PvE server was down and I decided to go to PvP and work on my much neglected characters there. What I found was that the griefers were gone and the PvP crowd was comprised of dedicated and mature individuals who made playing in the server a real delight. So.... I stayed. In the meantime I have seen the PvP population grow into a small community that is wonderful to play with. I'm actually selling stuff on my trading post, and miracle of miracles, the chat is alive and well with players ready willing and able to help other players. I was impressed by the cooperative attitude of the small and growing PvP community. So..... my point is this: Rather than rekindling the age old divisive debate of pvp vs pve, why not focus energy and resources on enhancing the game, adding ranged weapons, getting us furniture for the beautiful buildings that the new architecture can build, and leave the one server merge issue for later, when it can be implemented in a fair way that will satisfy both sides. Why fix something that at this point, most people believe "ain't broke?"

The implementation of a single server would not adversely affect me because I have developed characters on both servers and am happy with my tribe lands in both, but there are others where that would not be the case.
Many on the PvP server, like on the PvE server have invested many hours in building very nice homesteads, bands, tribes etc. To implement a merge where the outcome would be the loss of all their hard work does not seem fair to me. Please think on this some more so that the implementation will be fair to all.

[verinor]

If the merge wont happen then i think that Pve server shouldnt get any pvp options at all, no duels no flagging, nothing at all.
All in order for war server be the only option to pvp.

[Hero]

1) Closing the current War server will mean all tribes, towns and inventories will be lost. I could possibly copy character information (appearance, stats, skills and schemes) for players that request it but this could be a time consuming procedure.

4) PvP players would not have any advantage over PvE players. There would not be a possibility of PvP controlled resources or areas that would give PvPers an advantage. To implement something like that I would need to start up a separate PvP server again.

Oh really, then i would say start a CLEAN server, see how popular the idea is if the pve guys are being wiped =P i for one would love a reset map and if war tribe get deleted and gain 0 advantage to be fair so should pve tribes or they DO get an advantage.

[thurgond]

I think too much time has passed and too many players have done too much work on War for a server merge now. A merge would generate more ill will than it is worth.

[znaiika]

I think it is better to keep both pve and pvp servers as it is, I don't care if there is no pvp of any kind on pve server but I would like if you make pve server more pve, such as: assigning revs to all junk places as if they are decayed tribes and give revs an ability to restore junk piles, if anyone would drop a totem on top of a junk area which would attract revs to that totem and attack it constantly, it would also add a place to hunt and add a danger.

[xyberviri]

Jordi,

This is my suggestion that gives everyone something:
==
-Create new zone type, well call it a "conflict zone" which can be 1 of 3 alignments: War, Peace & Neutral, then expand the mist with these new zone types. (just 2-3 squares out.) While leaving the existing playable area alone.

-Then while a conflict zone is in a neutral stat you can allow Good and Evil to attack/kill each other, but DONT allow looting and DONT allow damage to or from a neutral player.

-Instead let players collect trophies from the corpse (right click corpse "collect trophies"), then return those trophies to their totem which is in a conflict zone to influence the zone towards good or evil.

-Once the good or evil tribes return enough trophies (ie paid enough tribute/upkeep) the zone should move closer to becoming a War zone (ie follow the rules on the war server, full loot everyone takes damage) or a Peace zone (ie follow the rules on the peace server, no player vs player combat)

-Allow neutral players to participate by letting them return it to their totem in order to move the zone closer to becoming a neutral zone.
==

[chojinuk]

No Merge.

Thats like you are totally giving up on PVP.......


You are doing nothing to even retain PVPers or try to get back those that left.

There has no been no PVP content developed.

its all PVE, Farming, cooking, new arch sytem creature fixes. Yes those are all great...
but nothing for PVP Its no wonder all the PVPers left and have not returned.

Merging the servers will just kill of PVP for good, which is probably what you want anyway.

Sark

[znaiika]

@xyberviri so, people who have many accounts can drop totems and set them to pvp to overwhelm pveers? I say keep pvp and pve servers separated.

If you want to merge in to one server, then:
1) setting your tribe to good make you immune to pvp of any kind any were you go.
2) setting your tribe to neutral will make your tribe land immune to pvp the rest is pvp enabled
3) setting your tribe to evil will set you and your tribe to pvp enabled no safe zone in any were you go and your tribe can be looted and dismantled
Add health color, green (good), white (neutral) and red(evil).
No other advantages disadvantageous.

[xyberviri]

that's pretty harsh for evil tribes you wont have anyone wanting to play the bad guy.

Also don't forget how big the game world is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12780033/World%20of%20Xsyon.png
Vs what we have today: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12780033/XsyonWorldMap_20110310.jpg

[MrDDT]

@xyberviri so, people who have many accounts can drop totems and set them to pvp to overwhelm pveers? I say keep pvp and pve servers separated.

If you want to merge in to one server, then:
1) setting your tribe to good make you immune to pvp of any kind any were you go.
2) setting your tribe to neutral will make your tribe land immune to pvp the rest is pvp enabled
3) setting your tribe to evil will set you and your tribe to pvp enabled no safe zone in any were you go and your tribe can be looted and dismantled
Add health color, green (good), white (neutral) and red(evil).
No other advantages disadvantageous.

No. You give advantages to people and give disadvantageous to the other. If you going to take something away from someone or give them a disadvantage you should at least give them something of an advantage.


It's really simple.
Make areas where it's PVP enabled for ANYONE walking in that area.
Give resources or skill gain or something to that area for being there.
Make control points to that area that PVP players will contest.

If PVE players do not want PVP, then they stay in the PVE areas. Most games do this just like this, it's is really not hard at all. Ultima Online did it and does it. They give 2x resource for every action in PVP areas. They also have special monsters and quests ONLY in that area.
EvE online does it. Darkfall does it etc etc. (Listing sandbox games I know of)

[xyberviri]

It's really simple.
Make areas where it's PVP enabled for ANYONE walking in that area.
Give resources or skill gain or something to that area for being there.
Make control points to that area that PVP players will contest.

This is the simplest solution, as far as development is concerned you only need to flip a bit on a zone.

[znaiika]

@xyberviri, didn't pvpers want danger? that what evil should be prepared for for being evil.

Then the best is to keep both pve and pvp servers, no to pvp areas with advantages.
Sorry ddt but your way is forced pvp on others who do not want to pvp, best keep it all separated.

[xyberviri]

Sorry ddt but your way is forced pvp on others who do not want to pvp, best keep it all separated.

That could be solve if a part of the mist was opened up and one of those zone made pvp, it could be on the edge of the mist.

If you make it a scrap pile that Doesn't run out & can't have a totem placed on it, increase the QL of stuff you get off of it. then that would be a good reason to go play in that zone a little bit.


There are zones here:
http://i.imgur.com/LNKquJo.jpg

[ozbeck]

im against haveing 1 server imo should leave the servers alone.u have a great game and should just keep working on stuff u have already planned and not waste your time.i think if u make it 1 server regardless of a switch for pvp on/off or just pvp zones wont matter.i also think it would be unfair to the poeple on both servers and all the hard work they have done to wipe them.its just my opion.thx keep up the great work.

[mattmatt]

i play on peace and like the pve and i dont pvp because the combat isnt the best for pvp.but i wouldnt mind if like some people said open more of the map and make some zones pvp that sounds fair.im ok with this change if it doesnt bother my pve game play.ty

[znaiika]

See, there is your problem with pvp zones, you want advantages, never going to work. You have a whole pvp server and you can't make pvpers to work together, so you want to destroy pve as well, men-up stop your gank-fest and build your pvp community and leave pveers alone.
Xsyon!!!! please leave both servers as they are, pvp and pve community do not mix, if pvp community don't want to give up their ganking play-style? so be it, let them play how they like on pvp server.

[Xsyon]

Thanks for all the Feedback. Based on this feedback I'm not going to consider merging the servers at this time.

Just to be clear, this Feedback Request was in response to a specific proposal made here (http://www.xsyon.com/project.php?issueid=2339) which was requested by several people that play on the PvP server.

At this time, with the removal of subscriptions and the player population on the rise, there is an opportunity for PvP players to welcome past players to return and make the War Server come alive. The active population on the War Server (in terms of active players logging in daily and online at peak hours) currently matches the overall population at the time of the server split. I've noticed quite a few players that typically player on the Peace Server logged in on the War Server building up their tribes there.

The systems on the War Server are no different than when many players enjoyed PvP. The only difference is that there are no unwilling players to force PvP upon, which was a problem in the past.

Although as many of you know, I have emailed all past players to welcome them back without subscriptions. Past players have been trickling back but there are still many many past players unaware of the subscription removal.

I'm also copying my explanation for the two servers that I posted in the other thread below:
-------------------------------------------------------------

Since launch, as far as I can discern from research and data Xsyon's population has been 80% PvE players and 20% PvP players. (In the past I noted it was 75%/25% but 80%/20% is more accurate).Since the server split, new players' choice of server (usually without any information regarding the population of each server) has followed this 80%/20% split.

Edit: In the past few weeks, many PvE players have been playing on both servers making the population on the War Server more active and the online split around 75%/25%. So it's fair to use a range of estimates from 75%/25% to 80%/20%.

At the time of the split, the game allowed for free play with limits as an introductory trial for new players. The game population had also reached its lowest point.

Many players were turned off by the existence of PvP. The daily combat logs showed repeated ganking of new players. I received many messages by players stating they would play only if there was a PvE server. A survey regarding Xsyon conducted on massively that revealed the same trend. I also surveyed players that had signed up on the website but never logged into the game (even for free). One of the main reasons given was simply that PvP was allowed.

In addition, conflicts between PvP and PvE players had often caused a lot of drama requiring me to step in attempting to mediate situations. This took away valuable time and often slowed development to a crawl. Something had to be done.

Among the PvP crowd there have been groups of players with different desires:

- Players that like the occasional thrill and danger of PvP.
- Players that want to participate in war games (capture the flag etc.) but not full on tribe siege or destruction.
- Players that want siege allowing the destruction of buildings and ransacking even full take over of other tribes.
- Players that want PvP based territory and resource control and use PvP to dominate trade or other players.
- Gankers / griefers that want to force PvP on players that don't want it.

Of course some players want combinations of the above.

Some of these desires were not not compatible with a server of primarily PvE players so to further advance the game for both type of players and for the other reasons mentioned above I proposed a server split.

Dividing the game into PvP and PvE regions as a compromise was discussed. In that discussion, the trend was for PvPers to want some advantage for PvP zones. That would not have been fair for the majority of players and I would be stuck with the issue of new players not wanting to join a game with open PvP. I proposed a PvP and PvE regions with no advantages for PvPers and did not receive a positive response.

Time was running out and I could not reach a compromise welcomed by PvP players, so the second server was added.

Unfortunately this met with resistance and frustration from many PvPers who instead of welcoming new PvP players and trying to build a new community, drove off newbies with griefing or left the game themselves.

Despite this, the overall population grew and conflicts subsided allowing me to focus on development and finally enjoy working on the game without constant distractions!
-------------------------------------------------------------

Forward to today: My current focus is on creature and combat changes as listed in the In Development (http://www.xsyon.com/content.php/69-xsyon-sandbox-mmorpg-apocalypse-2012-development) page (Current Round).

I admit this round of development is taking a long time for several reasons: I had a lot of code to clear up and clean out. I've read up a lot on various options for creature path finding to find the best solution for a dynamic world. Other systems (such as building) took priority as improving creature path-finding, fixing combat issues and setting up the potential for buildings to be attacked all required fixes that prevented the old style drop building exploit. Extensive building and the need to improve loading and synchronization issues led to me focusing on optimizations (and further optimizations are in order). There's also the constant pressure to eliminate bugs and old issues (like the recent final fixing of the alt-tab crash which was very time intensive).

Thanks again for all the input. Now I'll get back to the code!

[mush]

Regarding saying "advantages" for PvP players or a person who enters the PvP area, you assume they will come out with what they entered with and whatever they gathered in the time they spent in there, this will not be the case as they will also encounter big losses like spending an hour gathering in the zone but coming out with nothing cos they got caught.

On a mixed server the resource rates eg. say 1.5 times more in a PvP zone are for balance, risk vs reward, and to create a conflict zone for PvP content. The zone isnt exclusively for PvP players either as anyone can enter, and is not "forced".

Ultimately what ends up happening is people who dont care for PvP are tempted by the increased resourse rate, go in to the zone naked unarmed to reduce loss of good armor and weapons, and get annoyed when they spend 2hr gathering and someone takes it off them. Well if you want guaranteed resources stay in the safe area at 1.0xresourse rate.

The zone is only forced if they started putting unique items in the PvP area only, which i dont think Jordi would do anyway.

The PvP server doesnt work because there is no PvP content/game mechanics end of!!! Copying one server to another server and ticking the PvP box isnt the creation of PvP mechanics.

[xyberviri]

The zone is only forced if they started putting unique items in the PvP area only, which i dont think Jordi would do anyway.

Honestly this could be done as a crafting ingredients.

Like "war stained metal rod" which could do +10 to damage or something like that. and require 100.00 skill to use in a recipe.


There could be ingredients that even have curses that aren't exposed to the player and have negative effects like -10 health or -1 str or something.

the player could fail too which eats stuff.

[znaiika]

Thank you Xsyon.

To pvp oriented players.
All kinds of "EXTRAs" which do not meet all play-styles are advantages, either 1.5 or 1.0001 just so you know.

[MrDDT]

Honestly this could be done as a crafting ingredients.

Like "war stained metal rod" which could do +10 to damage or something like that. and require 100.00 skill to use in a recipe.


There could be ingredients that even have curses that aren't exposed to the player and have negative effects like -10 health or -1 str or something.

the player could fail too which eats stuff.

I just do not think this is a good idea. Getting a bonus to something you can get in a safe area is not something that requires PVP. You just get a bonus to something that is attainable. Making items unattainable to non PVPers.


Thank you Xsyon.

To pvp oriented players.
All kinds of "EXTRAs" which do not meet all play-styles are advantages, either 1.5 or 1.0001 just so you know.

We understand where you stand, you also want a fresh wiped server. The thing is, noone is going to get exactly what they want. Or in your case what you think you want.


I'm tired of tiptoeing around the topic. It's very easy to see that PVP should have an area, and PVE should have an area. This way PVEers who want to do a little PVP can go to that area. Also the server will have a much higher population. To me it's a no brainer for a sandbox game.



The PvP server doesnt work because there is no PvP content/game mechanics end of!!! Copying one server to another server and ticking the PvP box isnt the creation of PvP mechanics.

This is the main problem with PVP. Nothing to do with PVP other than kill people for the grins.

[znaiika]

ddt, pvpers don't just want to get a pvp area they want pvp area with advantages, that's a big problem. If pvpers get an area it has to be with equal resources, buffs and all as pve area no advantages with one over the other.

Using that phrase "risk vs reward" is way to old, it is often used by pvpers to get an advantage over pveers, and hopping to lure fresh noobs to gank.

/pvp flag is better, people won't need to travel who knows where to pvp they would be able to type /pvp and pvp as much as they like no need for pvp zones.

[mush]

On a mixed server if resourse rates are the same surely the "advantage" you speak of is then with the PvE side as if they never flag themselves they will never lose anything?
PVP area would just be a dueling area where no one would bother to gather resourses?

I play on the PvE server anyway lol as I had a hunch at the time of the server split, something like this would raise its head.

[MrDDT]

ddt, pvpers don't just want to get a pvp area they want pvp area with advantages, that's a big problem. If pvpers get an area it has to be with equal resources, buffs and all as pve area no advantages with one over the other.

Using that phrase "risk vs reward" is way to old, it is often used by pvpers to get an advantage over pveers, and hopping to lure fresh noobs to gank.

/pvp flag is better, people won't need to travel who knows where to pvp they would be able to type /pvp and pvp as much as they like no need for pvp zones.

It doesn't have to be, you mean you would like it to be. I can point to dozens of games doing fine where it doesn't have to be. In fact few games have it the same.

Risk vs reward is not only a PVP term, it's a term used in many things. Including PVE. Harder monsters yield more rewards. It's a simple common system. I said before, you can give a PVE area the same rewards just make that area harder. Just like we currently have danger areas give more rewards than low danger areas. Same concept.

I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I will refute your poor ideas and anytime you say "It has to be x way".

[znaiika]

mush, your words:
"I play on the PvE server anyway lol as I had a hunch at the time of the server split, something like this would raise its head."

It happened because pvpers destroyed pvp server, so they want to come to pve server and destroy it too, that's what's going to happen if you add pvp areas with advantages.

ddt, why don't you consider good, neutral and evil options, if evil option is to harsh then set it as no safe zones for evil players anywhere without tribal loot and without dismantling things, add a war totem to set-up tribal war and add all kinds of options from simple pvp to full loot and destruction.
You have good, neutral and evil options, all xsyon need is to set them-up.

I am against pvp zones.

If you were talking about fallen earth, pvp zones are way too over-advantaged, you can gather mats in pvp zones in minutes which would take weeks in pve zones, surly it works for pvpers but not for pveers.

You can always ask Xsyon to add extreme zones on "pvp" server with advantages for control purpose.

[sMartins]

I am against pvp zones, too. Same rules for everyone end everywhere is the best thing...so or pvp is everywhere and for everyone or better to have only pve....right now this problem doesn't exist cause we have 2 server, PvP and PvE and this one is the best solution for evreyone...and we must say thx to Xsyon for this. I don't see your problem if you want some features added to the game ask them on the pvp server side...pve server works fine as it is on this side.
I like PvP but i would never see pvp on a PvE server. Cheers

[MrDDT]

You can always ask Xsyon to add extreme zones on "pvp" server with advantages for control purpose.

Extreme zones already have an advantage on both servers already, no need to ask for this.

I understand you don't want it. I'm sure there are others like you.

Znaiika, first off it is not up to you or I. I can talk about this all day, but at the end of the day it's Xsyon that destroyed PVP. He did not put in the PVP system he promised people at the release of the game, he did not put in any of the PVP options he said he would even after he released the game, he then "asked" if PVP should be on the PVE server and he choose not to put it on the PVE server for a reason.
If Xsyon wants ideas on what would be good for a PVP/PVE server that takes into account all options and makes most people happy, I would be happy to give more detailed advice on that. But asking people that currently play a PVE game because PVP was pushed off the server by Xsyon and the guides and lack of content? Of course you will get PVE answers.
Just as when Xsyon first released the game (and before release) it was PVP heavy and PVEers were getting pushed out by PVPers wanting what they want. Like full loot on death.
You ask me why I don't want those things? It's complicated and there are very good reasons why, and because I've had experience playing PVP games with those options and they don't work for many reasons.
To me this is beating a dead horse.
Xsyon doesn't want PVP, he has shown that over and over again in everything he does, and now he just wants someone (anyone group of people really) to agree with him so he can remove PVP all together. Sadly I think even PVEers will be missing out. I think many PVE players want some form of PVP whether it's duels only, or arenas, or zones with PVP. Also I think there is a lot of content options if you include some form of PVP with very little coding. Compared to trying to add things in like raid bosses and massive events like that.

[znaiika]

Reason why pvp is empty is because of gankers and griefers not Xsyons fault, reason why Xsyon said no to merge pvp with pve is because pvpers did not propose a pvp option which dose not force pveers in to pvp, pvpers want to have advantages over pveers and don't want to play on the same/equal rights with pveers.

/pvp flag is a good option, which will allow people to pvp if they want to, but will not force them to pvp.
Xsyon never said he want to remove pvp, he left you pvp server.

[ilius]

Totally agree with MrDDT.
Gankers and griefers were Xsyons fault. When ganking and griefing is possible it happens.
Instead of finding compromises he just separated community loosing pvpers and pvers liking to have some pvp.
Whats wrong with advantages for those who plays harder? PVErs have their advantages for killing bosses and such. Remove BOSSES from PVE server! Having empty PVP server is a disadvantage. Bring people back on PvP server!!

At least remove full loot and add pvp zones with greater resource chances to fight for. Nobody looses anything. Global market will be brought to live. And add these changes on PvP server only. See how population will move on to pvp server.

[znaiika]

Ganking and griefing is possible because of ffa pvp not because of Xsyon don't blame someone else for your own actions, it's pvpers fault, if you bring pvp areas to pve server ganking and griefing is going to be possible on pve server as well, and will destroy pve server.

What kind of advantages pveers have? over who they have advantages? over pvpers? Is pve content not available to pvpers in any way?

Your words "At least remove full loot and add pvp zones with greater resource chances to fight for. Nobody looses anything. Global market will be brought to live. And add these changes on PvP server only. See how population will move on to pvp server."

Ask Xsyon to do those changes on pvp server and see what happens, although there is a catch this would work as a bait when some move to pvp server from pve some could join and build tribes large enough then pvpers make-up their mind and force Xsyon to change back to full loot and FFA pvp, it is a pvp server after-all.

[MrDDT]

Ganking and griefing is possible because of ffa pvp not because of Xsyon don't blame someone else for your own actions, it's pvpers fault, if you bring pvp areas to pve server ganking and griefing is going to be possible on pve server as well, and will destroy pve server.

What kind of advantages pveers have? over who they have advantages? over pvpers? Is pve content not available to pvpers in any way?

Your words "At least remove full loot and add pvp zones with greater resource chances to fight for. Nobody looses anything. Global market will be brought to live. And add these changes on PvP server only. See how population will move on to pvp server."

Ask Xsyon to do those changes on pvp server and see what happens, although there is a catch this would work as a bait when some move to pvp server from pve some could join and build tribes large enough then pvpers make-up their mind and force Xsyon to change back to full loot and FFA pvp, it is a pvp server after-all.

I like the way Ilius is saying.

How about we leave the PVE server just as it is, NO PVP whatsoever and we only talk about changes to the PVP server? Surely that shouldn't affect you on the PVE server right?

So what we do is change the PVP server to be a PVE with 1/2 the zones PVP. Put in conquest areas with higher resource gains and things to fight over. Change the looting system from full loot to random dropped equipped item, and in conquest areas you make it full loot. Also give options for tribes to war each other and fight in the PVE areas. So only tribes at war can fight in the PVE areas ( and all zones). Then make war options for tribe take overs in tribe areas.

Tell me if PVPers would love this system. It would be a dream for PVPers.

Let's make Xsyon great again with PVP options. Risk vs reward.

[znaiika]

I am not against it, if pvpers like it why not.
I think it a great idea, leave pve alone, would be nice if pve gets revs to all scrap areas, to have pve server with more pve contant and make changes to pvp server only, as you described.
It is up to Xsyon now whenever he want to do changes.

[ilius]

What kind of advantages pveers have? over who they have advantages? over pvpers? Is pve content not available to pvpers in any way?
Is pvp content not available to pveers in any way? What a discrimination. If we take absolute PVPer he doesnt like to farm anything except other players, and this game is 100% about farm.

[mush]

I would like this option +1 vote from me.

I know this post was started because it was raised in the Suggestions thread, however, i have a suspicion Jordi may be putting the feelers out because he cant manage and develop for the 2 servers....so 1 will go (assume the PvP one) maybe not now but possibly this year? Hope im wrong, maybe Jordi can clear this up?

I would love to start up a fresh PvP toon but im not willing to invest the time while the server is the way it is atm and future doubts.

[znaiika]

Is pvp content not available to pveers in any way? What a discrimination. If we take absolute PVPer he doesnt like to farm anything except other players, and this game is 100% about farm.

Is absolute pvpers can"t farm players on pvp server? what are you talking about? if Xsyon change pvp server to what ddt and others want you will have this problem, are you going to blame Xsyon for that? then Xsyon has to think twice before changing anything.

[ilius]

You're not listening.


Is absolute pvpers can"t farm players on pvp server?
They can't. Because there is nobody there.


what are you talking about? if Xsyon change pvp server to what ddt and others want you will have this problem, are you going to blame Xsyon for that?
What are you talking about? What problem? Blame for what? For giving us an apportunity to play in a bigger community and have pvp as an option to be reworded same as for PvE bosses or just hard work?

What I personally do blame him for (with all the respect for the game he is making for us) is that decision to separate servers rather than looking for compromise. If he wants to work on PvE features only why keep PvP server at all?? And I personnaly not afraid to loose all the progress if it'll be the cost for what we ask. I think even MrDDT with his huge base and hundreds of hours spent in game won't mind to start from scratch.

I'm saying that we can have both pvp and pve content on one server. Let it be PvP server. Those PvEers who doesnt want any pvp will stay on peace, building and farming forever.

PvP anywhere with Full loot is not an option for this game. PvP content must be just one of the options. But still I want to be able to go on scavenging alone, in my Charm set, not being afraid to loose it. True hardcore pvp needs way more balancing and features. Not needed.

[znaiika]

I were talking about you wanting to be a true pvper so you don't have to farm, which you are going to have to anyway.
I have a feeling that I am talking to a same person with different names.

I have no problem with pvp server changes, don't know what are you trying to prove, I already said I agree with ddt changes he wants for pvp server.

[laronesta]

ideas are all great but wiping the pvp server with peoples work needs close consideration

[Xsyon]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all the input. I'd like to clear up a few things as I've done in the past.

First: I like PvP. If I didn't like PvP there would not have been PvP at all in Xsyon to start off with.

PvP in Xsyon was originally meant to be like PvP in Ultima Online (when I played it) but with more of a crime system in place. PvP would be a risk and thrill for those that engage in it, but not the major focus of the game.

I enjoy the thrill, fun and competition of PvP. For me these are 'rewards'. In Xsyon and in other games I enjoy being creative (most games to me lack or limit the ability to be creative). This is why architecture has been a focus. Building something interesting and beautiful in itself is satisfying and rewarding to me. I enjoy options and customizing my character which is why the crafting and armor system was designed as it is. I enjoy immersion and I've tried to make Xsyon an immersive environment with systems like terraforming, tree chopping and planting and the farming system.

I understand and enjoy having goals and achievements and leader boards were part of my original design but have yet to be implemented as there is always something else to do.

So that's where I'm coming from as the designer.

Xsyon originally had a good / evil system partially in place. The system was based on a hidden alignment score and tracked good and evil actions. It was based on criminal and questionable actions such as stealing from other player's bins, chopping trees on other's tribe land and of course murder. Good actions were to include training players, charity (giving items to new players) and similar actions.

It was scrapped a long time ago for several reasons:
- Lack of interest from players.
- Need to block most 'evil' actions like stealing.
- Great resistance from many PvP players to having harsher penalties / rules for 'evil' players (which was a main part of the system).
- Realization that many 'good' actions would end up being exploited by players with multiple accounts and time, and there weren't enough planned 'good' actions to balance the evil.

I would personally like to bring back this type of system into the game but there currently isn't enough demand for it.

Next: Although I like PvP and played PvP MMOs in the past, I don't like or support ganking and griefing. I don't agree that just because something is possible that players will and should do it. That's why we have common courtesy and when that fails there are Rules of Conduct. In the past we were very lenient with the Rules of Conduct and in the present we definitely are more flexible on the War Server in allowing conflicts and for players to resolve their conflicts with PvP.

Next: I am open (and have always been open) to adding more PvP oriented systems. As a one man team, unfamiliar with these systems it's not a quick and easy task.

Siege mechanics are a possibility for the future (on the War Server) but not likely to happen soon. I've always molded the game to fit what our player base wants. There are some requests for siege from time to time and I think it would be cool, but there hasn't been a strong demand for it. It would first entail me playing games with siege systems, seeing what's out there, what works and what's fun. The game wasn't originally intended to have full on siege or building destruction but it evolves based on what players want.

Other proposed systems are possible and I will address those in a subsequent post.

Next: Shortly after the Prelude launch, the focus was revising combat primarily for PvP players. Although I like the system and it received praise at the time, it does have problems.

Right now I'm working on creature and combat changes (and have been for a while). This is both for PvE and PvP. This is taking a very long time as I've needed to work on systems such as architecture that stood in the way of progress.

One recurring PvP request has been for players (and creatures) to be able to attack buildings. For this to happen (and for proper creature path finding), I needed to fix some functions that players were using to create multi-story buildings. By fixing those I needed to implement a proper multi-story system (which the game now has). Once that was done, players built more and I needed to greatly optimize loading and collision functions.

Now that's all out of the way and I can implement planned creature and combat changes including ranged combat.

Ironically, I received complaints and criticism from some PvP players for making these changes which were required if they want to see buildings being attacked, ranged combat and other combat features they have been requesting!

[Mactavendish]

Thank you for that Jordi, We vets really appreciate the clarification.

And, thank you for all the hard work you have done over the years!

As to what this thread is about, I have been here from the start, and saw all the pvp folks rant and rave over various issues, convince The dev to change things and then get upset it was not something they could abuse.

It is obvious to me that ddt et al, want to be able to gank and dominate, thats the advantage they want, and Jordi has clearly stated he won't do that. So... you are left to work within his vision of the game HE is building or perhaps move on to another game you like better.

Surely after all this time, you must realize that he is not going to give in to a very few vocal players and snub the majority of players, most of which moved over to the pve server once it became available.

Why you folks ( DDT and Ilis ) cant get this is beyond me.

[Xsyon]

To mush:

Maintaining both servers is not an issue and like I stated I enjoy PvP so I wouldn't want to remove the PvP server. I started this thread simply to get more feedback on the suggestion because:

- It received more responses than a typical request (both on the forums and from players highly requesting the change through the help system). Some players really wanted to see it happen.

- It's a controversial request. Most suggestions are simpler and wouldn't offend anyone if implemented.

Not much else to it!

[Xsyon]

Now regarding the most recent proposal. Here is what I could do:

1) The PvP server gets divided into PvE (Safe) and PvP (Conquest) zones. What makes most sense to me is to make the current high danger zones PvP zones.

2) Resource gains can be bumped up in these high danger PvP zones. This could be higher amounts per pull and greater chance of finding rare items and materials. I'm open to other suggestions.

That's easy enough and could be done.

I need more information on the rest of what's being proposed as it's currently not clear to me.

1) Things to fight over: What would this entail?

2) Full loot in Conquest zones vs random dropped item in Safe zones: This isn't clear to me. Would 'Safe' zones still allow for PvP and the only difference would be the limited looting? To me a random dropped item is about the same as no looting at all (but requires more work on my end).

3) Options for tribe to war each other in PvE areas: What would this entail? Tribes setting a switch? Tribes dropping safe zones? Tribes setting a specific war switch with another tribe.

4) Tribe take overs: What would this entail? Conquering tribe now controls the old tribe? Or just open looting for a period of time?

Things that are still not going to be possible for a while:

1) Full destruction of buildings. Attacking doors would be possible. Breaching a wall maybe. Full destruction would be difficult. For example what happens if you attack and knock down a column? Does everything supported above it collapse? A proper system would be complex and would require a lot of destroyed art work to make it nice.

2) Siege weapons. Would require art work that I can't create alone.

[Xsyon]

Next here is a system I was considering and designing in the past but never posted about.

Tribe controlled territories

- Tribes of 'x' size would be allowed potential control over an entire territory. To first control a territory they must have their tribe within the territory and then place 3 (or so) control totems within the territory.
- Control totems would claim a small plot of land.
- Every 'x' days (or using some other mechanism) control totems would become 'open' for a certain period of time (an hour for example).
- While open, players from another tribe can occupy the control totem area and take it over.
- Claiming a control totem would be occupation based (like several PvP objectives in Warcraft where having a player of a faction increases its value until a limit is reached and the objective is claimed).
- If the limit is not reached during the 'open' time, the current tribe retains control.
- Control of the territory would allow the tribe to set the entire territory to Safe or PvP
- Control of the territory would give the tribe and its allies resource bonuses.
- Optionally, control of the territory could prevent non tribe members and allies from gathering resources on the land.
- Tribes could gain control and advantages over other territories by capturing all control points.

Is there any interest in this type of system?

Note: The reason I did not post this in the past is because too often when I mentioned things I was considering or working on players then claimed that I 'promised' these systems. The game constantly evolves and many times I've had to abandon ideas and work in progress. This is why more recently I try to keep silent on things that are not directly in testing or heavily in the works.

[MrDDT]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all the input. I'd like to clear up a few things as I've done in the past.

First: I like PvP. If I didn't like PvP there would not have been PvP at all in Xsyon to start off with.

.................snip...................

Now that's all out of the way and I can implement planned creature and combat changes including ranged combat.

Ironically, I received complaints and criticism from some PvP players for making these changes which were required if they want to see buildings being attacked, ranged combat and other combat features they have been requesting!

Thank you for reading through this issue and trying to work it out.

I know a lot of people only see me as a PVPer on here but I'm a well rounded player doing all that is in the game. From my understanding on why there might be complaints and criticism is because things were asked for and we were told they would be in the game long ago. Like ranged combat. I've been told dozens of times in the last 5 years "It's ready just need to do x". So the latest building stuff is just another x to the list of us waiting months and years for something we've wanted. How many building updates have we had with new types of building stuff? Yes I know it's your forte but understand that building is doing great, can we move on to other parts of the game?
Personally, I understand fully why the change in building had to be done for the AI. So yes I see that but there has been 100s of patches that combat hasn't been updated. Plus the times it was, was "fixed" but couldn't be fully fixed and sent on the back burner for years. Mostly because of the free trials, then steam, then for posts etc etc.




Thank you for that Jordi, We vets really appreciate the clarification.

And, thank you for all the hard work you have done over the years!

As to what this thread is about, I have been here from the start, and saw all the pvp folks rant and rave over various issues, convince The dev to change things and then get upset it was not something they could abuse.

It is obvious to me that ddt et al, want to be able to gank and dominate, thats the advantage they want, and Jordi has clearly stated he won't do that. So... you are left to work within his vision of the game HE is building or perhaps move on to another game you like better.

Surely after all this time, you must realize that he is not going to give in to a very few vocal players and snub the majority of players, most of which moved over to the pve server once it became available.

Why you folks ( DDT and Ilis ) cant get this is beyond me.


Of course I want to dominate, I'm a person that likes competition. As for ganking? Well your term of 'ganking' is likely nothing like most people. 1v1 is not ganking.

What can't we get? PVP that works in Xsyon? So far we've not got that because 1/2 of the things PVPers need and asked for do not get put in place which messes up the other 1/2 of the systems we do get and are in place. Much like the combat system. Xsyon's combat is cool so far, expect the fact it's missing abilities, ranged combat, and massive desync. So yes we will complain when only 1/2 or less of something we ask for is put in place without the other 1/2. It would be like ordering a Turkey sandwich and getting some mayo and bread. Pretty sure you would not have a sandwich you want and likely be upset about it.

[Mactavendish]

The true issue DDT is that you don't want to accept simple statements made along the way, like "things will get adjusted due to player input" or the game evolves as it goes along.

That's really simple wording.

none of this was "promised" to you is was an idea that was on the table and if he could work it out he would but if issues cropped up he may or may not deliver. I never had any other expectation.

Please try and live in the same universe as the rest of us and realize this game was not designed for you specifically, it was a group thing, and the group didn' t like your ideas enough to support them.

Oh and as for ganking, I'm sure anyone would agree with this definition... "killing another player that is too low in skill or defenses to put up a reasonable fight, or is so out matched as to have no chance at success." That my friend defines you exactly. ( personal experience )

Advantages should go to the players that put in the time and effort to have earned the advantage. Tell you what, delete your toons and start fresh on war server and see how it goes. I'm very sure you won't because you will not be automatically superior than any other current player.

Therein lies the true reasoning behind your comments.

[MrDDT]

Now regarding the most recent proposal. Here is what I could do:

1) The PvP server gets divided into PvE (Safe) and PvP (Conquest) zones. What makes most sense to me is to make the current high danger zones PvP zones.

Yes exactly.



2) Resource gains can be bumped up in these high danger PvP zones. This could be higher amounts per pull and greater chance of finding rare items and materials. I'm open to other suggestions.

That's easy enough and could be done.

Awesome!




I need more information on the rest of what's being proposed as it's currently not clear to me.

1) Things to fight over: What would this entail?

Control points that people can't build towns on (or at least not ones that can't be torn done with siege as requested for later) that yield rewards. Maybe those locations give 5x more resources per action, or maybe you have to build a mining station there and only use it to gather resources at a much higher rate and QL. Or maybe it's a station that gives 5x faster skill gains. Or a combat area that gives 5x faster stat gains.
If people are standing there doing actions for defending they would be a target for attack and people would want to do this. UO had 2x resource gains in all the PVP area, and a few parts of the PVP area yield rare nodes that are only spawned in that area which made it a very high combat area of strife.




2) Full loot in Conquest zones vs random dropped item in Safe zones: This isn't clear to me. Would 'Safe' zones still allow for PvP and the only difference would be the limited looting? To me a random dropped item is about the same as no looting at all (but requires more work on my end).

Conquest areas would be like PVP heavy contested control point areas. "Safe zones" would be the rest of the PVP area, and then fully safe areas would be the PVE and own tribal areas.
Why 1 random item, is it prevents people attacking over and over (no loot drop) but doesnt cause enough punishment that griefers will cause on people. Losing all your gear is a major risk for many people this would lower the risk greatly without completely removing it. But the contested/conquest areas should have a higher risk. These random drop areas are like PVP lite areas. No a lot of reward but some risk for some PVP. PVP Conquest/contested areas are a lot of reward with a lot of risk.




3) Options for tribe to war each other in PvE areas: What would this entail? Tribes setting a switch? Tribes dropping safe zones? Tribes setting a specific war switch with another tribe.

Well for starters you need what would it take to require to war someone? The less it costs to war someone the lower things it should open up to them. Personally I believe the cost should be relatively high and open up things like destruction of tribal areas and killing members on tribal lands, along with full loot of members in all zones of the PVP server. Now how would wars should also come with a notice before they happen to give tribes to prepare for the attacks. Most games do 1 to 3 days, with it lasting a set time. The system isn't perfect and I think the topic if looking to be put into place would need to be discussed because there are ways to grief other players through war tactics, even on the PVP server you don't want to grief someone.





4) Tribe take overs: What would this entail? Conquering tribe now controls the old tribe? Or just open looting for a period of time?

Either way, but remember I think taking over a tribe should be based on the work put into that tribe. It takes months to build a tribe losing that to 1 guy in 5mins would be silly. Plus because the system is being put into place after the servers have been around for a while, I suggest putting options like this only in place in "choice" areas. Meaning areas where people choose to move into or have a tribe knowing the new rules.




Things that are still not going to be possible for a while:

1) Full destruction of buildings. Attacking doors would be possible. Breaching a wall maybe. Full destruction would be difficult. For example what happens if you attack and knock down a column? Does everything supported above it collapse? A proper system would be complex and would require a lot of destroyed artwork to make it nice.

Understood. But you could maybe limited it to a few object types that can be harmed. Most of this stuff I would think also would only apply to new buildings at first because I would suggest testing this out in areas where people have not built yet to give people a chance to prepare and choose this type of life/warfare.




2) Siege weapons. Would require artwork that I can't create alone.

At first they could be as simple as blunt weapon. You could even use a current model and change the name and settings of it. I expect that sieges would be a long ways away.
Darkfall had mostly 2 handed hammers for siege for a long time.






Next here is a system I was considering and designing in the past but never posted about.

Tribe controlled territories

- Tribes of 'x' size would be allowed potential control over an entire territory. To first control a territory they must have their tribe within the territory and then place 3 (or so) control totems within the territory.
- Control totems would claim a small plot of land.
- Every 'x' days (or using some other mechanism) control totems would become 'open' for a certain period of time (an hour for example).
- While open, players from another tribe can occupy the control totem area and take it over.
- Claiming a control totem would be occupation based (like several PvP objectives in Warcraft where having a player of a faction increases its value until a limit is reached and the objective is claimed).
- If the limit is not reached during the 'open' time, the current tribe retains control.
- Control of the territory would allow the tribe to set the entire territory to Safe or PvP
- Control of the territory would give the tribe and its allies resource bonuses.
- Optionally, control of the territory could prevent non tribe members and allies from gathering resources on the land.
- Tribes could gain control and advantages over other territories by capturing all control points.

Is there any interest in this type of system?

Note: The reason I did not post this in the past is because too often when I mentioned things I was considering or working on players then claimed that I 'promised' these systems. The game constantly evolves and many times I've had to abandon ideas and work in progress. This is why more recently I try to keep silent on things that are not directly in testing or heavily in the works.

This system is used in Shadowbane very well. It was a "mine" system. There was about 30 mines all over the map that had "conquest time". Which means the tribe controlling that mine would get x resources per hour from that mine and there would be a window of conquest, where whoever controlled that mine at the end of the conquest timer would win the mine for the whole day.

I really like this idea a lot. I understand it's not set in stone and you are working on it, but these are what people are wanting for PVP objectives. Give the people something to fight for.

My ideas are not fleshed out perfectly, and just giving you some overall ideas of how other games have done it or what might be a good idea.

I think this last idea you have here is very good and would get a lot of interest in PVP and Xsyon.

[znaiika]

Control points that people can't build towns on (or at least not ones that can't be torn done with siege as requested for later) that yield rewards. Maybe those locations give 5x more resources per action, or maybe you have to build a mining station there and only use it to gather resources at a much higher rate and QL. Or maybe it's a station that gives 5x faster skill gains. Or a combat area that gives 5x faster stat gains.


First, thank you Xsyon for the reply.
I am not going to say anything about pvp server whatever you do is up to you.
The reason why I quoted ddt is, I like your idea ddt and it could be implemented on pve server as well, for this to work on pve it has to be connected with tribe size, larger the tribe better the reward for all members.

[Xsyon]

I'm going to think how I can combine the ideas I proposed with ideas presented in this thread then start a new feedback thread on what's feasible with various options.

Thanks again for all the input!

[xyberviri]

I need more information on the rest of what's being proposed as it's currently not clear to me.

1) Things to fight over: What would this entail?

2) Full loot in Conquest zones vs random dropped item in Safe zones: This isn't clear to me. Would 'Safe' zones still allow for PvP and the only difference would be the limited looting? To me a random dropped item is about the same as no looting at all (but requires more work on my end).

3) Options for tribe to war each other in PvE areas: What would this entail? Tribes setting a switch? Tribes dropping safe zones? Tribes setting a specific war switch with another tribe.

4) Tribe take overs: What would this entail? Conquering tribe now controls the old tribe? Or just open looting for a period of time?

1) the higher gains that MrDDT talked about on things like scrap piles, Some things you wouldn't normally find such as human skulls should be "findable" in Conquest zones.

2) I still think you need a 3rd type of zone, Ie Medium Danger: Allow Evil and good players to kill each other in Medium zones while still protecting Neutrals, with High Danger being the conquest zones.

3) i think we just need an option for Friendly dueling, if we can say right click on some one and say "Purpose duel" similar to a quest and i can put an item in there that the other person can get if they defeat me. Perhaps the same at the tribe level, Ie let my tribe duel your tribe and when X are all dead then Y wins the pot.

4) This one is pretty hard to balance, but if you could duel another tribe for a totem area then maybe we can put the totem up as a "pink slip". Like when drag racers would bet their car and the winner takes the losers car. Something that you can opt into.



Next here is a system I was considering and designing in the past but never posted about.

Tribe controlled territories

- Tribes of 'x' size would be allowed potential control over an entire territory. To first control a territory they must have their tribe within the territory and then place 3 (or so) control totems within the territory.
- Control totems would claim a small plot of land.
- Every 'x' days (or using some other mechanism) control totems would become 'open' for a certain period of time (an hour for example).
- While open, players from another tribe can occupy the control totem area and take it over.
- Claiming a control totem would be occupation based (like several PvP objectives in Warcraft where having a player of a faction increases its value until a limit is reached and the objective is claimed).
- If the limit is not reached during the 'open' time, the current tribe retains control.
- Control of the territory would allow the tribe to set the entire territory to Safe or PvP
- Control of the territory would give the tribe and its allies resource bonuses.
- Optionally, control of the territory could prevent non tribe members and allies from gathering resources on the land.
- Tribes could gain control and advantages over other territories by capturing all control points.

Is there any interest in this type of system?



Yes Yes Yes, how ever i would purpose that you require blood as the upkeep. I mentioned in another post you need a 3rd zone type that allows evil/good people to kill each other outside of the mentioned conflict zones. If you required this "blood" to pay for upkeep it would allow the zones to go back into conflict so any one specific tribe wouldn't hold unlimited grasp on it.

This concept is very simple: if your good your clearly dont want evil players and if your evil you clearly intend hurt some one. This is our flag system right here, the only way to flag up or down is to join or leave a tribe.

Thanks for all you do Jordi, i know balance is difficult, all of these suggestions are just that and my own feel free to take them with a grain of salt.

[fuquashawn]

My issue with pvp is not dying. It's the grieving. Yesterday I spent the entire day working grass in a field. I did this why multitudes of people ran by waving and greeting me. This included several new players.
Last time I did this on the pvp server someone took the time to destroy every grass pile I had after killing me over and over three way over powered players on one guy with no weapon or armor. They didn't even bother to take the grass, they just destroyed it. The dieing is not the issue it's the grieving.
In my humble opinion PVP had it's chance, what was your words Xsyon? "The game population had also reached its lowest point." I say keep it like it is and let a dying dog die last one out turn out the lights. Honestly this question has already been answered by the player base, what was your words on that? "has followed this 80%/20% split."
I have trade partnerships, homesteads and tribes working towards common goals, new players rolling in by the day, communities growing. This game is headed in the right direction and the numbers show it.
Do I mind a duel switch? not at all, just adds to the game and we all know that's not pvp anyway. Do I want a tainted community running around grieving players? Not at all that didn't work the first time and won't work now, " The game population had also reached its lowest point."
If the cost of running two servers is too much simply choose the low pop server and close shop.

For the record I did meet real pvp players on my time in the pvp server unfortunately they were far and few.

[MrDDT]

My issue with pvp is not dying. It's the grieving. Yesterday I spent the entire day working grass in a field. I did this why multitudes of people ran by waving and greeting me. This included several new players.
Last time I did this on the pvp server someone took the time to destroy every grass pile I had after killing me over and over three way over powered players on one guy with no weapon or armor. They didn't even bother to take the grass, they just destroyed it. The dieing is not the issue it's the grieving.
In my humble opinion PVP had it's chance, what was your words Xsyon? "The game population had also reached its lowest point." I say keep it like it is and let a dying dog die last one out turn out the lights. Honestly this question has already been answered by the player base, what was your words on that? "has followed this 80%/20% split."
I have trade partnerships, homesteads and tribes working towards common goals, new players rolling in by the day, communities growing. This game is headed in the right direction and the numbers show it.
Do I mind a duel switch? not at all, just adds to the game and we all know that's not pvp anyway. Do I want a tainted community running around grieving players? Not at all that didn't work the first time and won't work now, " The game population had also reached its lowest point."
If the cost of running two servers is too much simply choose the low pop server and close shop.

For the record I did meet real pvp players on my time in the pvp server unfortunately they were far and few.


I fully agree let PVP server die, if Xsyon doesnt care about PVP and combat doesnt support it why worry about having 2 servers? Just let the PVP die without support updates or fixes.

Fuquashawn just note that PVP also had more people than PVE server ever has. 1000s of people played on that server with those rules. The same can not be said for the PVE server.

It sounds to me like you are a prime person that would be for a PVE server as you don't like PVP, which is fine. I agree with having areas made for people like you. I also think you would enjoy having some PVP here and there (like the dual option you are talking about) or zones where you can PVP if you want but not be "griefed" in your home zone.

[Pauven]

Personally, I'd love to play some PvP, but not with combat as it currently is. I'd like to stay PvE but maybe play some PvP from time to time.

However, I'm not a fan of the "toggle PvP" system at all. I think this would create too many problems. It would be a bit too easy to kill your neighbor and then run home to turn PvE.

The only way I'd give a positive vote for the return to one server is the following:

You said you're not willing to add PvP "zones" because of tribes that are already living in those areas. Is moving the mist back and turning those new zones into PvP areas be feasible? Perhaps make them high danger areas, giving PvE players the incentive to go there for scavenging and/or hunting (while not changing the current areas, meaning that PvE only players can still play as they currently do without ever having to go into the PvP areas).

I feel that this would fit into the game with the current idea of "the further away from the lake, the more dangerous the game gets".


In any case, my idea or another idea, I think there are many more important things that should be in the game (especially combat-wise) before PvP and PvE get merged back to one server. I also think it would be a bad thing for long-time PvP players to be forced to "start over", even just item-wise, but I realize it might be very difficult to avoid that.

[Wrath_Hobo]

As a new player hearing that everything ive built or helped to build will be wiped is very discouraging to continue to play. I like that youd be offering to save characters to continue to develop after a potential merger. It definantly allievates some reluctance to even start playing. I have played many survival games before and what it comes down to is the community. Everyone ive met so far is fairly friendly and their isnt much asshole griefing like I've seen in minecraft or Dayz. Maybe having something like I've seen in Warcraft where you flag yourself for pvp but once your flagged you cant unflag for another hour or so of gametime. Also allowing a tribe to form as a war tribe or Peace tribe would be sweet and allow both communities to coexist as then pve'rs can contract out and build stuff for the war tribes allowing more co-existance. If the people dont need enforcing at the time being however I'd say let it be. Another idea is if you are allied with a war tribe to help build upon their land it flags your tribe lands but not neccesarily your character for pvp for the time you form that alliance. Those are all farther on the road though as for the time being I feel almost zero danger on the PvE server and I can see it getting monotonous after awhile so hopefully some kind of temporary fix ie roving revanants or other dangers is implemented.

-Fwick the Peddler
Lost Boys

[xyberviri]

I think a lot of people skipped the other post about keeping the two servers not being an issue, we're not going back to one server. A lot of the arguments are being made as if the servers are going to be merged, Lets stop focusing on something that isn't going to occur, the Peace Server is safe and wont be getting blood spilled on it.

The true problem is no one, a part from a few players, want to actually play on the war server because of the small minority of players that have no sense of honor coupled with no one likes being restricted to just their homestead.



Ganking and Griefing is not pvp, I wish people would stop calling those two activities PvP because its not.



If War server had levels of pvp that increased risk with reward, IE death vs death + full loot, then that would allow players to choose how much involvement they want.


Those Danger level in all the Zones are the best solution:

Extreme
High
Medium
Low
None

None only exists on founders island, You have 4 levels of danger that increase as you get out away from the lake.
4 Levels of increasing Risk and potentially increasing reward.

We can just roll with that and boom, suddenly the pvp server has areas where combat can and can't occur.

Then you can't gank/grief people because they didn't go 5 zones north of founders island and just be done with it.

If the mist moves back then those zones that were high level danger would suddenly become low and those war tribes would need to move out towards the mist again.

(again this should all only occur on the War server, Peace should be the pve fun land of trade and what ever.)

[Xsyon]

Fuquashawn just note that PVP also had more people than PVE server ever has. 1000s of people played on that server with those rules. The same can not be said for the PVE server.

I've seen you write comments like this before and I think they are misleading to general readers. (It's not misleading to me because I have the actual data and a ton of feedback from those times).

Technically when the Prelude launched (March 2011) there were a few thousand 'active' players. All players that had pre-ordered Xsyon were considered 'active' since subscriptions had not started and there was a huge population boost in February and March of 2011 primarily from traffic coming from mmorpg.com where Xsyon was listed as one of the most anticipated games for those two months.

In reality, more than half of pre-order players quit playing before the final wipe. Many players simply don't play a game for more than 10 hours over the course of a month or two (which is how I've played nearly all MMOs I've played in the past). Many complained about rowdy players and tribes that had arrived in February and March and quit. Several large tribes that had enjoyed pre-order times (even with all the wipes) moved on to other games.

Many players wanted to see two servers at launch and I was on the fence about it until the very last minute. Looking back, not having both War and Peace servers at launch was one of my biggest mistakes. I can't change the past now though!

Roughly 2000 pre-order players logged in during the launch month after the final wipe. That month was very chaotic. The biggest complaints were about performance issues (loading and lag) and griefing. The game was barely playable with more than 50 players online.

Once subscriptions kicked in two months later the active population was down to around 500 players. At that point the focus of development was on combat. I had brought in one coder specifically to work on the new combat system and another to work on networking code to improve performance (desynch in particular).

Outside of that brief period (February and March of 2011) traffic to the Xsyon website (and now the Steam page) has been very low. The numbers in terms of conversion rates, hours played per player and player retention have increased over the years, especially after the launch of the Peace server.

With the recent removal of subscriptions, Xsyon has been more active than at any time since April 2011. The forums and global chat are a lot quieter than back then but players are spending more time in game and actively building and trading than ever before.

So technically, yes, for a very short period of two months about 2000 players played on the one server with current War Server rules. Most of those players checked in for several hours or less. It was just a small but very aggressive and vocal community that dominated the game and the forums. It was a chaotic unhappy two months and certainly not a period I would like to revive in Xsyon ever again.

Having said all this, as I've stated many times before, I enjoy PvP and I'm all for making improvements to bring the War Server to life. I will post my proposal for feedback shortly.

[Xsyon]

Yes, to be clear again: I'm not considering merging the servers to one server at this time. I've received enough negative feedback on that suggestion already. ;)

[znaiika]

Thank you very much Xsyon again and again.
I am just waiting for those lock options with subscription, so I could have a goal/purpose.
You can set $10 and $15 these should also include the first $5 option of an active tribe.
$15 should include ability to lock all skills and attributes.
I think that should be fair for subscribers vs non subscribers.

@ddt Fuquashawn never said pvp zone, you added your self, he said pvp option wich could be turned on and off, I think your proposal to mod pvp server was a bluff.

[Pauven]

I am just waiting for those lock options with subscription, so I could have a goal/purpose.


This isn't actually a planned thing is it? I've looked about and I haven't seen anything saying that Jordi is planning on making the game pay to win (though he has stated the opposite).

[znaiika]

This isn't actually a planned thing is it? I've looked about and I haven't seen anything saying that Jordi is planning on making the game pay to win (though he has stated the opposite).

First of it's not pay to win it's more like buy to play with subscription witch will add some form of income to support Xsyon, and everyone well have access to it.
It was stated on "no subscription" Thread.

[KeithStone]

If the plan is to not merge the 2 servers I think this thread should be locked, so not to confuse potential players that may hesitate to purchase this game thinking the PVE server could get merged with the PVP server.

[Xsyon]

Yes, I'll close this thread as this proposal is no longer being considered. Regarding optional subscriptions, the only thing I have planned is what I currently set up to keep totems / tribes active without logging in.