Truthfully I cannot wait until the free period is over and everyone who just bitches leaves to go back to darkfall or something with oodles of pvp
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Truthfully I cannot wait until the free period is over and everyone who just bitches leaves to go back to darkfall or something with oodles of pvp
Sirius, this is where the debate started:
You simply ignore the fact that you failed to prove that the feature page advertise PvP and tribal warfare. Everything you mentioned can be meant in a PvE system too. There is only 1 hint that is more logical in a PvP system (though it can be meant in PvE too, just imagine a player killing angels makes him evil, while killing demons makes him good), but NOTHING indicates warfare.Quote:
I think we can all agree on the following:
1) The features page indicates that PVP, including tribal warfare has always been intended to be a significant part of them game, though not necessarily the central feature
2) Players had every right to rely on the feature page as an accurate description of the game, should not be blamed for any misleading information on that page, and have every right to expect that the listed features are available
The devs did talk about PvP in interviews, but never mentioned tribal warfare. It was only brought up on forum, and it was always promised after Prelude. PvP is in, combat is under rework, tribal warfare will be in later just as they said. So how did they say misleading informations ?
I like my rose glasses, a queen deserve nothing less :p
Illmaculate, let me ask something. Try to put your personal feelings toward me aside. I'm honestly interested in your opinion ( no idea why though lol) and hope that you will answer frankly and honestly...when you first read the feature page, you thought it mentioned tribal warfare ?
To clear everything up:
Jadzia, (and VD+Ill) more poignant is that it's not -just- about the features list, it's about the whole website, most importantly the home page and the FAQ. The FAQ definitely states PvP+Tribal warfare, the homepage sets the user up to expect this with talk of conflict and good and evil. I for one read those three pages and bought the game, and I know dozens of others who did too (and have since left, unsurprisingly). Ignoring this though, you still lost the features page argument, so let it lie before they begin beating you round the head with quotes from this thread.
Jokhul, they're not arguing about what the game is meant to be about. I realise it's basically off-topic, but they're arguing about perceptions of a potential buyer on reading the website, because Jadzia somehow believes it couldn't lead a person to believe there is a PvP aspect.
Book, STFU. Nah, jokes, I just can't remember anything of value you've said in order to comment on it... Jokes again ;) Okay, musn't troll. The ethnocentric card was stupid; his point was that the IMPLICATIONS of the features page were as he stated originally, and missing that is either a logical error (harsh) or more likely (and politely) a simple linguistic misunderstanding. As the son of a multi-lingual translator (14 languages, last I checked), this was the FIRST thing I was taught to expect when trying my languages out with mother-tongue speakers. It's not insulting, it's a fact of life. Just like I don't understand German/French/Scandinavian humour and everyone thinks the Turkish are creepy; translations don't often capture sentiments and implications. Hell, even the difference between US and UK english dialects can be insurmountable for native speakers! Simple anthropology/linguistics studies will tell you all you need to know that there was no ethnocentrism here; merely politeness.
VD+Ill: Great forum-warrioring in the face of adversity. You have won though, even if your opponents aren't aware of it (think of yourselves as the NVA and your opponents as the USA and you'll see what I mean ;) ), and now we can steer this topic back on track at least a little bit.
My two cents: Xsyon isn't what it could have been, nor what it should be, yet. I hope that changes, but in the mean time, it needs to be -MUCH- clearer on the homepage that you are purchasing to support the development of a game that will be released in 6+ months. Saying 'more content added' through the 'prelude' I took to mean new technological advances as new things were rediscovered and new areas being unlocked once we had home bases set up. It is not made clear ANYWHERE just how much there is to go before the features list is even half full. In fact, for that matter, the features list -definitely- needs to be updated to say 'subject to change' and more importantly 'Supposed features'. Maybe even do a SWGEMU with it and put 'Features in' and 'Features on their way' or one step further, a rating system for how complete and 'working as intended' each feature is. It would only take an hour of dev time to do this, and would stop more people purchasing under the wrong impressions.
The features page specifically? really? ok. By section:
Landscape- all listed items appear to be working more or less as designed.
Resoursces- not good:
Constantly changing resources can be renewed or depleted. - depleted yes. renewed no.
Availability dependent on season and weather conditions. - Not really. grass was still grass during winter.
Resources can be claimed by tribes. - not sure of intent. Would seem to imply some degree of territorial control. currently can only claim within tribal footprint.
A large variety of resources with individual properties. Different woods, cloths and metals have properties that affect crafted items. - variety yes. affect? not sure, not way to tell...some affect color.
Scavenged items such as books can introduce knowledge of new crafts and skills. in.
Environment - items in except for:
Terrain surface affects movement.
Creatures react to adverse and favorable weather.
Weather conditions affect player actions and item durability - if these are in, i havent noticed them.
Character:
Customizable body, face and hair system.- sure.
Characters visibly gain or lose weight and muscle. - only at creation
Characters age visibly. Ageing affects character statistics.- only at creation
Statistics increase or decrease based on actions, experience injuries and age. - by action only. hardly noticeable.
Skill based system. Skills increase and decrease based on actions and experience. - sure.
Experience is gained for most player actions, not only combat, but crafting, questing, gathering and social activities. - Sure.
Levels gained will give additional points for the character to boost skills and statistics. These are in addition to normal action based skill and statistic gains and reflect what a character would be doing when not actively being played. - Sure.
Characters possess different gauges that affect the performance outcome of actions: Health, Faith, Energy, Hunger, Thirst and Encumbrance. Additional gauges including Comfort and Adrenaline boosts will be added as the game evolves. - Not complete. Gauges track, but only encumberance appears to have affect.
Character actions are tracked for Good and Evil and hidden stats such as Luck. - Not in.
Basic Actions - more or less, sure...you could potentially argue on running or strokes or whatever...but whatever. It's functional.
SKills:
Skills increase with use. - yes.
Skills decrease over time if not used. - No
Skills can be maintained and increased by using experience points. - Yes
Skills are affected by many external factors. - Not that i've noticed.
Many actions are dependant on several skills. - I guess this is referring to crafting requirign woodworking, leatherworking and weaponcraft to make a weapon. Altho it should read, many skills are dependent upon other skills...since it is the skill not the action...but ill give it a sure.
Skill increase is dependant on the character’s current level of similar skills. - not sure what that means. don't know if its in.
Over 50 skills in Combat, Physical Actions, Trade Skills, Crafts and Resource Gathering.- sure. altho combat is misleading (since combat skills are primarily just your weapon skills).
Crafts - mostly in except:
Supreme Master level of craftsmanship for those characters whose achievements top their peers.
Characters achieving the Supreme Master level of craftsmanship work with the Xsyon team to introduce a crafted item of their own design.
As they advance, craftsmen gain the abilities to repair, reinforce and improve objects.
Armor- misleading section because it's more or less marginalized by the level of the PO weapon.
Part based armor system. All parts can be crafted and customized. - sure.
Layered armor system for many possible combinations. - 2 layers. cloths and armor. really only one layer of armor. wouldnt really call it a system but sure.
Armor bulk and material affects player comfort, speed and actions. - comfort not in. speed yes. actions, not really.
Variable armor quality and durability for the same armor type. - Sure. I guess. When we can see it again. So no now, but i know it's there.
Armor parts can be enhanced based on materials used. - No.
Weapon types versus armor types. - Our testing did not support this. No.
Colored materials can be used to create thousands of different looks. - Kinda. Sometimes. Depends upon the piece and armor type.
Objects.
Found objects can be sorted for material and color - Yes. It's a hassle not a feature.
Skilled scavengers have a greater chance of uncovering rare and useful items - Sure.
Discarded objects build up to restock scrap piles. - No
Different areas yield different found objects - I haven't experienced this.
Objects degrade and decay with use and the ravages of weather and time - No.
Creatures.
No set creature spawns or re-spawns. Animals multiply based on the current creature population. Undead never truly die, or do they? - there are definite respawn points. fail.
Creatures gain experience and power, potentially evolving into legendary beings. - sure
Creatures can overrun areas or be depleted. - lol. overrun. depleted yes. only overrun occurred with guide involvement.
Creatures gravitate towards different areas based on mood and weather. - no.
Creatures driven to the outer reaches of the world mutate. - no
Creatures possess realistic loot. If you see armor or a weapon on a creature you can take it. Animals can be carved up for raw materials. - loot no. carve, yes.
Creatures are a primary resource for crafters. - yes.
Communication.
General chat based on hearing range. - no. Unless 9 zones is hearing range.
Whisper directed to specific players within range. - yes.
Town and player group chat channels. - tribe yes. group no. there is no grouping.
Help channel to contact in game Guides. - yes.
Town markets where players can place items for sale. - lol no.
Combat
Skill and statistic based combat. - not noticeable
Manual targeting, affected by abilities. - no.
Manual defense tactics including dodging, parrying and blocking. - no. or utterly pointless.
Body part targeting for critical attacks. - no.
Weapon types versus armor types. - no.
Combat permissions in tribe zones based on tribal settings. - no.
Combat will be revised during the Prelude and improved to match combat oriented games. - we'll see.
Tribes.
Players become registered members of a tribe. 10 players or more must come together to form a town. - numbers have changed but sure.
As towns increase in membership, they can claim more land and gain town abilities. - land? to a point. Town abilities? no.
Player owned protected housing. - no
Player owned protected storage. - yes
Flexible part based construction system. - yes
Custom rank system. Ranks consist of a power level and set of permissions and abilities.- yes. have not tested if ability limitations work.
Hierarchical political systems can be formed based on the rank system. - sure.
Bonuses to stats and skills when in native town. - no.
Bonuses to stats and skills for town leaders. - no.
Bonuses to players wearing tribal colors. - i wish. no.
Towns serve as centers for quests, trade, crafting, storage and interaction. - sure.
Tribes can choose tribal colors and emblems to be displayed in tribal clothing, banners and flags. - limited options. only displayed within totem selection. no.
im outta time. gotta run. based on this player's objective review of the feature list, compared to in game actions...assuming the game is runnign smoothly, without the lag spikes of release, zone crashing, sync errors, etc....based purely on list to in game, it's the game's feature advertising is misleading.
Jadzia, your most recent post addressed to me is utter BS and does not merit a response, but I'll indulge one last time. The features page clearly indicates that PVP is part of the game and strongly implies that tribal warfare is as well. You have to stretch the imagination and make improbable interpretations of the language in order to come up with the mere possibility that this is not what was intended. Clearly Dubs' comment on Occam's Razor went straight over your head, or you would realize that far-fetched interpretations don't trump obvious ones. It's the other way around.
As for how you can really sit there with a straight face and look at the interviews that talk about "open PVP" and the forum notes discussing "warring tribes" and "conquest" that were put up to describe what things were going to be like on the "live" servers... with posts indicating the safezones would be removed "DURING PRELUDE", "as soon as possible, possibly within a month or two" ... and just say that all of this was OBVIOUSLY supposed to take place "after prelude", is beyond me. While the exact details of server launch changed a bit, it has been clear from the start that both PVP and tribal war have been planned from the start.. they've just had trouble figuring out how to let warlike and peaceful ppl coexist on the same server without ruining things for either.
You also seem ignorant of the fact that the interviews and forum posts are also things that players are entitled to rely on when deciding whether to purchase the game (see my above discussion about the "single-edged sword" of truthful advertising, as well as the discussion of what would be "necessary" vs. "sufficient" to justify players' expectations that pvp and tribewar would be in the game (recap: a mention of those topics on the features page is sufficient, but not necessary, to justify the expectation).
I consider this conversation to be over. You are incapable of playing ball.
He didn't fail, but since you're still missing the point, you need to consider context. The features page ISN'T the home page. People have already read all of the 'good versus evil', 'shaping the future' stuff, then read the Features AND THE FAQ (which DOES mention both FFA PVP and Tribal Warfare). Frankly, any 2 of those 3 will guarantee the impression of PvP to -MOST- people (this is how advertising is decided; its effects on MOST people), and considering the current dynamic within game development, any ONE of those three does more than enough to imply it.
To the rest of your post, see my 2 cents part on my previous post. It -really- isn't made clear how under-featured the game is ANYWHERE on the website. THAT is the real travesty, and that is the real reason we should not be paying.
"World has too many armchair blogger we need more heroes"
Well said.
I'm not arguing about other features being in the game or not.
Its Sirius who insists that the feature page alone should be responsible to show such core contents as PvP and tribal warfare, and I agree with him. All I'm saying is that it doesn't contains it.
The FAQ does mention open PvP. Where does it talk about tribal warfare ?
Sirius, no idea what are you talking about. Tribal warfare has always been planned after Prelude.
Thank you.Quote:
When will we be able to raid other tribes? And what systems are you planning for that?
Not for a while. This was planned for after the Prelude, which will last at least 6 months. When a raiding system is implemented I will first look at what other games do and what systems have had success.
Jad: you're just dead wrong. QED. Thanks for playing.
Congratulations on your ability to look things up on Wikipedia.
My condolences on your inability to recognize that your argument was soundly defeated approximately 10 pages ago.
Everyone else is just waiting for you to catch up <3
/sigh
I had tried to STFU, as you so eloquently put it, but then you just had to drag me back in... your parents sound fascinating, 14 languages! That's great.
far as the other stuff, thank you for blessing us with your brilliance. I had tried to simply pm you but doesn't appear in my sent items so I presume it's not working. Are pm's on the features list?
not sure what you said was any worse/troll worthy than what anyone else (From either side of the arguement) said. all you can do is chuckle.
Reading the Wall Street Journal says wonders about yours.
If he won 200 million it wouldn't be for investment purposes, it would simply be so he (and the rest of the world) can play the game we have always wanted to play and because 5 million is nothing to a man who has everything his money desires.
Dumb ass.
You are from a tribe called Bad As Can and you think you have any credibility. That right there just shows the kind of person you are.
Of course the game isn't PvP based. However, PvP is one of the larger features because most of us play MULTI PLAYER GAMES for COMPETITION vs other humans. If PvP is all you want, go play Mount and Blade. If you want a game with PvP that has a PURPOSE to the PvP other than just the sheer fun of killing, then please, let them complete their game.
I see no purpose in playing in PvP just for the sake of PvP UNLESS it is the most fun hand to hand combat game out there, Mount and Blade. I wouldn't log on Xsyon to PvP even if it was fixed UNLESS there was reason for it. Because Mount and Blade combat is more fun and skillful.
Once there is purpose to the full loot PVP (besides the fun of the combat system itself if there is any) is when the fun will truly come in. When I can kill you and loot that sword that took you 48 hours of REAL TIME mat gathering, smelting, etc to build.
The game isn't based on either, but rather the two go hand and hand. Full loot PvP cannot work without the rest of the game working first. Other wise you are just killing for the sake of killing which only brings the fun into play from the combat system alone. Not the reward for winning the battle.
Their, i am going to solve all of your isses i have personally emailed jordi with a few questions to end all your damn bickering. I'll post it moment he sends me a reply.
Haha. I caused you to change your tag. Hit you where it hurt did I? Go ahead call anyone who disagrees with you a "kid" or an "idiot". Then proceed to act all butt hurt, and come back with "all the bad forums people are personally attacking me and not my baseless arguements".
Oh btw quoting Macbeth, lol, real high level stuff right there.
Sirius, you know what your problems is? It's you, and all you. Everyone in here agrees. Maybe someday you will wake up, or get a good smack in the head to do the waking for you. You have to leave the house with your brave forum chops though. See how far it get's you. Good luck lil fella.
LOL, I need a new pair of pants after the inexplicable leg-humping this guy just gave me. I think you have anger issues, pal.. you seem to talk quite a bit about people getting punched/smacked in real life, whenever you get furious about something on teh internet game forums. Nerd rage much?
Sad sad thread...
It pains me to see a game with such potential circle the drain in the crapper the way this one is ;[
The game needs to be:
33% combat oriented (this involves all aspects of PVP, PVE, gear, tools, resources used to get aforementioned, skills to variate between players/abilities, and ALL means to aquire/enjoy the aforementioned.)
33% craft oriented (this is all crafting, resource acquisition, food/buildings/etc, and anything else that can be dubbed as "creating".)
33% logistics (this is tribe locations, fighting over it with FULL tribal warfare, resource acquisition, tribe relocation due to resources/war/whatever, city building (ties in with crafting), as well as ALL forms of trading/mercantilism.)
Denying any of the 3 main 1/3'rds is simply killing the point of this game. Debate ALL YOU WANT about semantics on the features list, or false/misleading promises from devs, or even flat out inability to comprehend OR misconstrued comprehension...ITS ALL NULL. There isn't SHIT to do in this game to keep it alive when it comes time to pay. Sure, there will always be a small population of SPECIAL PEOPLE that actually define "fun" as playing HIDE AND SEEK (most recent event) or RACCOON INVASION/UNPLAYABLE (like previous), but the majority of the MMO playerbase of THE WORLD see that as simply embarrassing...almost to "Hello Kitty Online" status.
IF the game was not intended for pvp as a driving force, it would NOT have made any form of PVP (consensual or not) possible. It would NOT have had a safe zone because the entire word would be one. /THE END.
The reality of the matter is that you CANNOT implement pvp in a game WITHOUT CAUSING it to be a driving force for the game itself. No reason to deny this. Even if it had "consensual pvp only" it would still be a driving force to "do it" thus dictate a players actions/reasons for playing said game.
/END
*p.s. Anyone else notice that Jadzia has more posts than Xsyon himself? That is either trolling hard, or flat out not being able to comprehend anything IMO. Or just this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPBhFdlGupU
pvp does not have to be the main driving force of any game that has it, infact most games that include pvp are not specifically focused on it, but more so on how to prevent it.
The game is intended to be a sand box, what is needed is the tools for the players to create the content them selves. there needs to be more procedurally generated content that players can initiate from some point and let the system take over from there.
You attempting to prevent the pvp in a game involving pvp is still proving my point: PVP is a driving force for the game, thus you are trying to prevent it from happening. If it mattered nothing at all, it would not be a driving force.
Doesnt matter if it is the "main" or even a "non intended aspect" of the game...it is still a DRIVING FORCE of the game.
PvP should NOT be a driving force. It should be other other forces that drive PvP. The poor devs are stuck in that if they focus on the non-PvP stuff, they get called out for a broke-ass combat system. If they focus on combat balance and a fighting system, they get called out for meaningless PvP; nothing to fight over.
What happens when you try to push PvP in this game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3nF...eature=related
I recognize that little crap head from the last 20 times I tried to enjoy a meal at a sit-down restaurant.
How about they just remove it then? Im sure they wouldn't have put it in if they didnt intend to have it and ALL of the extra-curricular aspects of it. Why would they (devs) make posts about Mount and Blade style combat, tribal warfare, and etc IF they did not intend for it to be a driving force?
*At this point, I dont feel sorry for the "poor" devs. They've obviously listened to the wrong people since beta...ya know...the ones that actually seem to LIKE this game the way it currently is.
again, its semantics on whether pvp is the driving force. PVP is a component of the circle. you remove it, the circle fails. whether crafting drives gathering which drives pvp or pvp drives gathering and crafting, doesnt matter.
It all has to work, for it to work at all.
If we can only figure out some way to make something rooted in competition less competitive...