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Tribal Territory Size Answer
I asked Jordi a FAQ question about how large tribal territories would be since this will affect so much at the start of the game and received this answer.
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Right now it’s a 100 meter diameter starting tribal territory, increasing 5 meters per additional player. This might be increased. We’ll see how it feels with a few active tribes.
For those who might not know the starting tribal size for claiming territory is 10.
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Re: Tribal Territory Size Answer
So if I'm reading this correctly, basically the first 10 people, which are required, are worth 10 meters. Then every additional is worth 5 meters, correct? So a starting tribe of 10 players starts with 100 meters. A tribe of 15 would have 125 meters.
Off topic... why does everything in this game use the metric system?
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Re: Tribal Territory Size Answer
Because most of world use metric system, and countries where developers came from also use metric system :P
Only few countries (including USA) uses other systems. Check globe map here.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Oakstead wrote:
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I asked Jordi a FAQ question about how large tribal territories would be since this will affect so much at the start of the game and received this answer.
Quote:
Right now it’s a 100 meter diameter starting tribal territory, increasing 5 meters per additional player. This might be increased. We’ll see how it feels with a few active tribes.
For those who might not know the starting tribal size for claiming territory is 10.
This might be a problem if the game really takes off. 5m per person radius begins to add up to some pretty darn huge area numbers pretty fast once you get a couple dozen people in a village.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
good question, good answer.
this is a friendly bump.
EDIT: +thanks for sharing
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Farmerbob wrote:
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Oakstead wrote:
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I asked Jordi a FAQ question about how large tribal territories would be since this will affect so much at the start of the game and received this answer.
Quote:
Right now it’s a 100 meter diameter starting tribal territory, increasing 5 meters per additional player. This might be increased. We’ll see how it feels with a few active tribes.
For those who might not know the starting tribal size for claiming territory is 10.
This might be a problem if the game really takes off. 5m per person radius begins to add up to some pretty darn huge area numbers pretty fast once you get a couple dozen people in a village.
Probably shouldn't be a linear relationship. Should be inverse exponential.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Derek wrote:
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Farmerbob wrote:
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Oakstead wrote:
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I asked Jordi a FAQ question about how large tribal territories would be since this will affect so much at the start of the game and received this answer.
Quote:
Right now it’s a 100 meter diameter starting tribal territory, increasing 5 meters per additional player. This might be increased. We’ll see how it feels with a few active tribes.
For those who might not know the starting tribal size for claiming territory is 10.
This might be a problem if the game really takes off. 5m per person radius begins to add up to some pretty darn huge area numbers pretty fast once you get a couple dozen people in a village.
Probably shouldn't be a linear relationship. Should be inverse exponential.
It actually is quadratic. If n is the number of members in a tribe (at least 10), then the territory available to the tribe is:
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T = pi * (50 + 5 * n)^2 / 4
The division by 4 is due to the fact that Jordi was talking about the diameter, while the surface of the disk is computed with the radius.
From the formula you can see that every new member adds a lot of territory to the tribe. To know better how much more consider this table:
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Members | Territory (m^2) | Diff from prev. row
10 | 07854 | n/a
15 | 12272 | +4418
20 | 17671 | +5399
25 | 24053 | +6382
30 | 31416 | +7363
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Quote:
T = pi * (50 + 5 * n)^2 / 4
It's actually: pi * (50 + 2,5 * n)^2 because an addition to the diameter is always half the addition to the radius. Since the equation for the area of a circle is pi*r^2, we are using the radius and the division by 4 is a mistake.
It still means that to dominate the world (120km^2) you will need about 760 people in the same tribe.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Area claimed equation:
Assume base 100m diameter, 50m radius with 10 players.
Assume +5mm diameter, +2.5m radius per +1 character above 10.
Area = 3.14159 * (50 + [(players -10)*(2.5)])^2)
For a 50 player village they will control a village with a radius of (50+ (40*2.5)) or 150m
The really rapid growth of controlled area doesn't start until there are a LOT of villagers. The growth in radius is always linear.
In other words, the bigger the radius, the more of a difference one more player will make.
If the game gets truly popular, this could cause issues, but I can't see it happening with server populations below a couple thousand, unless almost everyone bands together in one town for some odd reason.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Both Farmerbob's formula and pid73's formulas are correct (you beat me too it!).
This produces the following results:
10 player tribe = 7,850 square meter area (100 meter diameter)
20 player tribe = 17,662 square meter area (150 meter diameter)
30 player tribe = 31,400 square meter area (200 meter diameter)
40 player tribe = 49,062 square meter area (250 meter diameter)
50 player tribe = 70,650 square meter area (300 meter diameter)
This scheme for tribal areas encourages tribes to have only one identity instead of breaking up into sub-tribes with each having their own area because a 20 player tribe will have more area then two 10 player tribes. This pattern continues no matter the number of players in a tribe.
Edited to say pid73's formula is correct and just a different version of Farmerbob's
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
I wonder if there is a limit for the population of tribes.
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Alfred wrote:
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Quote:
T = pi * (50 + 5 * n)^2 / 4
It's actually:
pi * (50 + 2,5 * n)^2 because an addition to the diameter is always
half the addition to the radius. Since the equation for the area of a circle is
pi*r^2, we are using the radius and the division by 4 is a mistake.
It still means that to dominate the world (120km^2) you will need about 760 people in the same tribe.
Are you really sure about what you said?
Why don't you open up Excel and run some numbers?
for example:
20 members raise the diameter to 150m (100m + 50m). That's a radius of 75m, encircling an area of 17671 m^2.
That's exactly what I get with my formula.
Your formula for 20 members is wrong. I punch the number 20 into your formula and get:
pi * (50 + 2,5 * 20)^2
That is a radius of 100m, which means the diameter should be 200m. But 20 members do not give you a diameter of 200m, but 150m.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Oakstead wrote:
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Farmerbob's formula is correct (you beat me too it!).
This produces the following results:
10 player tribe = 7,850 square meter area (100 meter diameter)
20 player tribe = 17,662 square meter area (150 meter diameter)
30 player tribe = 31,400 square meter area (200 meter diameter)
40 player tribe = 49,062 square meter area (250 meter diameter)
50 player tribe = 70,650 square meter area (300 meter diameter)
This scheme for tribal areas encourages tribes to have only one identity instead of breaking up into sub-tribes with each having their own area because a 20 player tribe will have more area then two 10 player tribes. This pattern continues no matter the number of players in a tribe.
Do you see any difference with my forumla?
I don't. The numbers are the same.
I just take steps of 5 members while Farmerbob takes steps of 10 members.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Guys, you misunderstood me. Btw, your both talking about the same formula A=pi*D^2/4=pi*r^2.
What I meant was that each additional tribe member should add less and less to the diameter, diminishing returns.
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You're right Pid73, your formula is correct as well. Sorry for not seeing that in my rush to get the data up.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Derek wrote:
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Guys, you misunderstood me. Btw, your both talking about the same formula A=pi*D^2/4=pi*r^2.
What I meant was that each additional tribe member should add less and less to the diameter, diminishing returns.
Your heart is in the right place but:
Assume R = D/2
D^2/4 is not equivalent to R^2 over any range.
I think you meant A = pi*((D/2)^2) = pi*(R^2)
I did not look back to verify, I'm only going by what I see above.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Jadzia wrote:
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I wonder if there is a limit for the population of tribes.
I strongly doubt that any tribe large enough to actually control a significant area on the server will be able to maintain cohesiveness. The biggest corporation in EVE that I can recall was EVE University, a training corp, and I do not believe their membership ever exceeded 2000 players, with an active playerbase of 200,000+ Alliances on the other hand got rather larger at times, but they are not single political units.
Sure Xsyon is not EVE, but they are both Sandbox, and share a lot of game dynamics, even if the background for said dynamics is drastically different.
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Oakstead wrote:
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You're right Pid73, your formula is correct as well. Sorry for not seeing that in my rush to get the data up.
Don't be sorry, maybe I sounded wrong in the previous post.
I wanted to point it out but was by no means "offended"...
I had to put this in that post: :silly:
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Farmerbob wrote:
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Derek wrote:
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Guys, you misunderstood me. Btw, your both talking about the same formula A=pi*D^2/4=pi*r^2.
What I meant was that each additional tribe member should add less and less to the diameter, diminishing returns.
Your heart is in the right place but:
Assume R = D/2
D^2/4 is not equivalent to R^2 over any range.
I think you meant A = pi*((D/2)^2) = pi*(R^2)
I did not look back to verify, I'm only going by what I see above.
Ok, I don't mean to get into a pissing contest over something so trivial, but I use that formula every day at work (I'm a structural engineer). Your not reading it correctly A=pi*(D^2)/4=pi*r^2
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lol i love how this thread got turned into a math thread.
On a side note i agree with the fact that it shouldnt be this way. Territory control should decrease in increments as you increase in the population of the tribe.
As it is now its more profitable (more territory control) to have one trible of 50 instead of two tribes of 25. I hope it to be changed so this game is a lot more smaller tribes instead of giant zergs.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Farmerbob wrote:
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Jadzia wrote:
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I wonder if there is a limit for the population of tribes.
I strongly doubt that any tribe large enough to actually control a significant area on the server will be able to maintain cohesiveness. The biggest corporation in EVE that I can recall was EVE University, a training corp, and I do not believe their membership ever exceeded 2000 players, with an active playerbase of 200,000+ Alliances on the other hand got rather larger at times, but they are not single political units.
Sure Xsyon is not EVE, but they are both Sandbox, and share a lot of game dynamics, even if the background for said dynamics is drastically different.
Wow 2000 players would mean a huge tribe and they would cover about 80 km2....I don't know how big is the whole area of Xsyon, but 80 km2 sounds a lot to me.
Btw, (D^2)/4 is equal with R^2.
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Natedagreat wrote:
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Territory control should decrease in increments as you increase in the population of the tribe.
Yeah, I agree.
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Derek wrote:
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Ok, I don't mean to get into a pissing contest over something so trivial, but I use that formula every day at work (I'm a structural engineer). Your not reading it correctly A=pi*(D^2)/4=pi*r^2
Yup, my bad, I was misreading it somehow.
I'm glad I relooked before firing back with a comment about engineers using pounds mass in thermodynamics :P
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
pid73 wrote:
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Natedagreat wrote:
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Territory control should decrease in increments as you increase in the population of the tribe.
Yeah, I agree.
Up to a certain point I agree, provided that large tribes get non-area benefits. Defensive bonuses, special buildings, etc.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Farmerbob wrote:
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pid73 wrote:
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Natedagreat wrote:
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Territory control should decrease in increments as you increase in the population of the tribe.
Yeah, I agree.
Up to a certain point I agree, provided that large tribes get non-area benefits. Defensive bonuses, special buildings, etc.
what do you mean by "defensive bonuses, special buildings"?
More people to defend = defensive bonuses...you don't need anymore than that.
As for special buildings...I may or may not agree....tbh i don't know enough of how they do that sort of thing in game to base my opinion.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Farmerbob wrote:
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pid73 wrote:
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Natedagreat wrote:
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Territory control should decrease in increments as you increase in the population of the tribe.
Yeah, I agree.
Up to a certain point I agree, provided that large tribes get non-area benefits. Defensive bonuses, special buildings, etc.
Why should large tribes get bonuses ? It doesn't add anything to the game experience if a few large tribes rule the whole game. Its much better to give a population limit like 50 or max 100 members.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
ZERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGS
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Defensive bonuses for large towns make sense, IMHO, but only in conjunction with special buildings. A large town will perhaps have the ability to build and maintain a cut stone curtain wall, which a hamlet almost certainly would not. This would give a defensive bonus, and I would suggest that the ability to create and maintain larger defensive structures (walls, towers, keeps!) be limited based on population.
If you have a couple fairly large towns which don't eat up half the map, it means there's more room out there for people who don't want to be part of a big town.
The geometric progression of the above mentioned method might not ever be a severe game problem. It might well be that the mist would automatically pull back and give us more land based on how much land is claimed by towns (this would be really cool) but until we know how it all _really_ works, any argument is sortof pointless.
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Farmerbob wrote:
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until we know how it all _really_ works, any argument is sortof pointless.
qft
Without more information anything we theorize about could be completely moot.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
My opinion is that huge tribes are more of a problem, not something the game should encourage. From the point of the long-term success of the game it has to be attractive for new players. If there are huge (500-1000 members) tribes, a new player will never get the opportunity to form a competitive tribe. And if the big tribes don't accept newbies (which happens pretty often in games), a new player would feel that he has no chance to get the same game experience as the veteran players got. Its a bad game design when the players who join later can't have the same options as the veterans.
If there was a population limit for tribes, something about 50 members, anyone could form a new tribe and wouldn't be hopelessly lagging behind the old ones. The gameplay would be more diverse too, more alliences, more conflicts, more trading. When a game is ruled by 2-3 big clans then it usually starts to get boring, and on the way to die.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Jadzia wrote:
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My opinion is that huge tribes are more of a problem, not something the game should encourage. From the point of the long-term success of the game it has to be attractive for new players. If there are huge (500-1000 members) tribes, a new player will never get the opportunity to form a competitive tribe. And if the big tribes don't accept newbies (which happens pretty often in games), a new player would feel that he has no chance to get the same game experience as the veteran players got. Its a bad game design when the players who join later can't have the same options as the veterans.
If there was a population limit for tribes, something about 50 members, anyone could form a new tribe and wouldn't be hopelessly lagging behind the old ones. The gameplay would be more diverse too, more alliences, more conflicts, more trading. When a game is ruled by 2-3 big clans then it usually starts to get boring, and on the way to die.
+ 1 to all of this
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
Don't limit the size of a tribe. Apply diminishing returns to space.
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What happens when two tribes grow to the point of overlapping land? I would think it just forms a border so expansion is no longer possible in that direction. That could be a problem for a tribe surrounded by other tribes but I have no idea of how it works in game.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
gregulate wrote:
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What happens when two tribes grow to the point of overlapping land? I would think it just forms a border so expansion is no longer possible in that direction. That could be a problem for a tribe surrounded by other tribes but I have no idea of how it works in game.
Good question, would be nice to get some info about it.
JCatano wrote:
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Apply diminishing returns to space.
I understand the words but not the sentence...can you elaborate please that what did you mean ?
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"In economics, diminishing returns (also called diminishing marginal returns) refers to how the marginal production of a factor of production starts to progressively decrease as the factor is increased, in contrast to the increase that would otherwise be normally expected. According to this relationship, in a production system with fixed and variable inputs (say factory size and labor), there will be a point beyond which each additional unit of the variable input (i.e., man-hours) yields smaller and smaller increases in outputs, also reducing each worker's mean productivity. Conversely, producing one more unit of output will cost increasingly more (owing to the major amount of variable inputs being used, to little effect)."
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
I believe jCatano was saying that as a tribe adds members, the amount of territory they gain per member should decrease.
As you increase your tribe members, your return(land gained for the tribe) diminishes.
btw you were absolutely correct iron maiden. I was just trying to say it in the context for which it was used in reference to this game.
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Thanks for the info to both of you, its more clear now :)
And any method that keeps tribes back from growing too big is fine.
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I don't like population caps, at least in terms of stopping players from increasing.
I did hear that tribe size can increase by both using tribe members and totem pole claims. So in a sense I hope the main totem pole only increases the main pole to a limit of 50(ish) members then you need to plant totem poles, how to limit that is more important.
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Re:Tribal Territory Size Answer
So... what happens when one tribe's territory collides with another?