So what do we have so far?
Dollars
Quarters
Pennies
Can Tabs
Bottle Caps
Who wants to step forward and start putting a value on these items so we can start using it as soon as they fix the stackable item bug?
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So what do we have so far?
Dollars
Quarters
Pennies
Can Tabs
Bottle Caps
Who wants to step forward and start putting a value on these items so we can start using it as soon as they fix the stackable item bug?
Unless they can be used as ammo at some point you can keep your pre-war money. It's worthless to me... I trade in rivets, screws, nails, and such.
I think currency wont be important until the establishment of the civilization.
race is on
You will just be handing us resources we wont need money.
I know whats in demand atm and I aint tellin :)
Everything has value, but we don't have a price. Also, currency needs to be assigned a value. No value on units, no 'trade'. It's going to be so much fun to work with this during our time in Xsyon.
I guess currency won't have the same dynamics all over the map. Also i figure that different currencies are going to be adopted on zones. Maybe the trading post (or a well organized tribe) in zone 777 will start to consider buttons valuable, so evryone in the sourroundings who want to have access to their goods will be forced to use buttons as well.
The same way i don't think that barter stuff is gonna be very successfull. Or convenient at least. If i have to travel to get my new shiny axe set, i prefer to go around as lighter as possible so i can have more chances to run from an ambush; or just cover more distance and resting less.
Well probably we could see courrency very soon and influent tribes will set the exchange rate. At least i hope so :P
Edit: sorry for my english hehe
No problem. It was very articulate here. Most people won't put stock in 'buttons' until buttons have worth. Until then, its going to be barter. Then exchange rates will be set. Hehe, war may be declared over that too. /shameless PvP plug
Unless there is a value placed on money from the start as if by a government, we wont be using it any time soon. We will simply barter with goods that are usable.
We don’t need a “government” to assign value to a currency for us to realize the burden of carrying resources back and forth to complete transactions, trade of gathered resources amplifies this. I think due to transportation and in-game communications limitations currency will be adopted by players faster then expected. In addition, it’s ingrained in our RL cultures and I don’t think RP’ing can conquer that!
There has to be one central figure who is trustworty to put a value behind currency.
Let's say that trustworthy figure says, that 1 button is worth 5 nails. Now player X comes to that trustworthy player, gives him 5 nails and gets 1 button. Now he can use the button and trade something with player Y, player Y can trade with player Z and so on. Without that trustworthy figure when the chain is broken, then the last person ends up with useless button and is missing something, that he traded for that button. But when that trustworthy figure is added to the "formula", then he can always go to that guy and trade this button for 5 nails.
Basically it all comes down to trust, but when you don't have a "bank" in the game, then you have to trust the whole server(which is impossible). With him you only have to trust the bank.
Incorrect. Economies form naturally based on the interactions and agreements between people. No currency should be established by the developers or by us prior to the game's launch. This is how things will work:
Players will discover what items are rare and what items are common. Players will also figure out the value of the various items. Eventually, we'll be trading for specific items, which will become a form of currency. For example, players may discover that everyone needs nails. Therefore, players will start offering nails for specific items until before you know it, it is known that a spiked club is worth 150 nails and a set of bear bone armor is worth 500 nails, etc.
The best part about a system like this, one that naturally evolves and changes, is that the currency players use could be based on the region of the map you're in. Tribes and players close to the lake might use something more valuable as currency, such as a resource not easily found on the coast. Meanwhile, players farther in the mainland and mountains will prefer something else. You could very well see 2-10 different mainstream currencies at the same time, with exchange rates and more.
In summary... agree on a currency now? No way. Let the market (i.e. the players through trade) decide.
Didn't you just describe barter system.. if someone mentions currency, for me it means money. If someone trades goods(clubs) for raw materials(nails), then it is barter system. And yes, that doesn't need any outside interference.
The definition of currency does not equal "money." Currency can be anything from bottle caps (Fallout) to Gold coins (WoW) to paper bills (real life) to nails as I mentioned in my example. Just because it is a resource found in the world doesn't mean it can't be considered a currency. Of course, a resource wouldn't be considered a currency until a large portion of the community accepts it as a means of placing value on other items.
It will be very intresting to see how this evolves even more so without golbal chat.
it really doesnt matter if everyone says 'bottle caps' are the currency if I can get them easily and what I really need is nails.
I am fairly sure what is needed will change over time and if you study the game and what the community is doing at any given time determining what good resources to horde will be a fun exercise and hitting that sweet spot is not something I would advertise anyway :)
This is barter system.. someone who needs nails, will trade for nails. The need is what drives people in situations like that. If woodworkers will accept wood, then for tailors. Money is universal, it has value for everyone.
And in the gold/bottlecaps would be totally useless in those games, when the "central" bank (read: npc vendors) wouldn't guarantee you certain amount of services/goods for your gold. I say it again, money is worth nothing on its own, thats why you can't compare them with Xsyons economic system. Read a bit about the role of central banks (Federal Reserve in US) and how the money is being "made".
This is awesome, and the reason why there has been no listed currency. We have to go through the same process as our ancestors did to develop an economy, with or without represented wealth. Obviously its easier to carry around a bunch of little things then your entire inventory of goods, but when its accepted that carrying around all your buttons is equally dangerous to carrying around all your goods... that's the key tipping point for a legitimate currency. This isn't going to be solved any time soon, but we should address it when we have goods that we are trading.
Money is NOT universal, never was and still isn’t today...
“Tribes” of today use different forms of currency and have the ability to be exchanged for others “tribes” currency based upon global economics being overseen by an exclusive membership “tribe” (e.g. the World Bank, international financial institution).
Obviously the system works for those member tribes that have representative members (e.g. World Bank) while none represented “tribes” are repressed and suffer. One of the first steps in absorbing a foreign population is forcing them to adopt your currency.
Currency will be adopted locally but never will be globally unless one single entity dominates the world. First it will be our currency, next will be the absorption of our culture. Which isn’t going to happen without a FIGHT! I rebuke thee...
F-R-E-E-D-O-M!
Okay, now you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
I am trying to make a point with a little RP regarding the subject...
Let it be known, I am not a leader of a tribe but will gladly leaned aid in rebelling against any regime that secretly conspiracies to implement global rule!
http://1000diamonds.files.wordpress....braveheart.jpg
You concentrate too much on what is written on the "bill", not the "bill" itself. Money IS universal, it has value to every member in the community.
That is what is lacking in Xsyon, there is no such item, which is valuable for every citizen regardless of profession. Food is, but it is too common, everyone can keep themselves supplied. And that is, why I think there will be no money in Xsyon, for people it is easier/safer to trade their goods for something they need, than to make a buffer trade for "money agreed on forums" with the risk to get stuck with it because noone really needs it from some point on.
No, it has to be playerdriven.
There will be definitely situation, when someone wants to sell something and actually doesn't need something special for it. I am also sure that there will be people around, who exclusively focus on trading. Now it would be great, if those bigtime traders could mark the moneybills, which we can scavenge. So person, who wants to sell the item, can get tokens from trader. In reality seller just gets tokens of credit from the trader, which assure, that whenever he wants, he can go back to trader and purchase certain amount of goods from the trader. If there are enough clients for the trader, then those tokens of credit can be used to trade between all the clients without involving trader itself in every trade. Because in the end it doesn't matter, who goes back to the trader and exchanges credits back for goods.
But using that system we can be sure, that every "bill" has been backed with goods.
Few remarks:
It can't happen straight away, there has to be time to build trust between trader and customers.
Also a problem is, what will happen when trader decides to quit the game without notice. Although, when he is trustworthy, then he probably settles his things before doing such thing.
EDIT:Marking of bills is vital, otherwise trader can never be sure, if the bills originate from him or not.
Of course all this written here doesn't mean, that this bird would lift off in Xsyon, but at least this would be a way to give value to the bills we scavenge.
As english isn't my native language, I hope all written here is clear, if not, just ask :)
guys!
The real 'value' of the US dollar is based on gold which is a resource that is nearly useless in the modern era (even in any era when you think about it). Its doesnt take much to figure out that 'money' is actually nothing more than a trust document, not a document of actual use or value.
its not a theory, its just obvious.
what am I going to do with a big pile of gold when everyone needs to heat their home. well convert that gold into oil. hmm why not just have the oil instead to begin with
US dollar is NOT based upon a gold standard. This was changed many years ago. As for the difference between currency and barter I encourage anyone to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency as opposed to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money .
Quote:
Fiat currency (wikipedia): The term fiat money has been defined variously as:
any money declared by a government to be legal tender.
state-issued money which is neither legally convertible to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.
money without intrinsic value
Example as applies to Xsyon: There are two ways for fiat currency to enter Xsyon. Firstly would be if the developers implemented a currency, for example, bottle caps in Fallout. The other way would be if a large tribe instituted a currency with no value behind it. This is tough since basically every item has some use in crafting, so basically anything that isn't implemented by a developer will end up being a commodity currency.
Quote:
Commodity money (wikipedia): Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity out of which it is made. It is objects that have value in themselves as well as for use as money.[1]
Examples of commodities that have been used as mediums of exchange include gold, silver, copper, peppercorns, large stones (such as Rai stones), decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, candy, barley etc. These items were sometimes used in a metric of perceived value in conjunction to one another, in various commodity valuation or price system economies.
Example as applies to Xsyon: Nails become a standard in measuring value. They can both be used to trade, or as actual nails. I suppose you may call it barter if trading specifically to obtain nails for use; while it is commodity money when the nails are being used as an intermediary
What we will see in Xsyon is going to be commodity money mixed with barter. Not exactly a pure barter system, but not the same as fiat or government issued currency.Quote:
General barter definition (wikipedia): Barter is a method of exchange by which goods or services are directly exchanged for other goods or services without using a medium of exchange, such as money.
Example as applies to Xsyon: I need tarps and have an excess of tools, so I trade with a tailor who needs tools to get my tarp.
This requires a change in the code, great idea but *I think* the point of the thread was for tribe leaders to come to a conclusion the value of items based on what the game offers now.
RE: FabricSoftener and rixk
I don’t think we are in disagreement at all... I will chalk it up to my poor communication skills. =)
The point of my rant is tribe leaders cannot sit down and dictate the value of anything based on the current game mechanics pre-launch. Post-launch they can try but will find various points of resistance due the pvp tribe politics and pioneer aspects the game promotes.
We need to be very cautious allowing any “super-power” tribes dictating the economy of the game. If we idly allow it we risk the absorption of the player community. I had to leave my previous MMO due to this because one group consumed most of the player base and became self-appointed leaders of the game world. It killed the pvp aspects of the game. So now, they twiddle their thumbs bitching on the forums and blaming game mechanics for the lack of pvp. They managed this even without the possibility of setting currency standards within the game. With the possibility of dedicating the currency here, I see the potential of a single super-power rising faster.
Similar (RP) conflicts are going to occurring relating to resources/economy in game as in real life. Which I think is awesome!
So, the first time someone tells me “we only accept XXX...” because of a 50+ man tribe five zones away set an artificial currency based on a resource that is convenient for them I will have a new enemy in-game and so should you.
if a strong alliance of tribes get together and all decide to use prewar money as their currency- then we will all end up using it.
However at first, I'm sure it's going to be a mostly barter trade system until tribes and cities start to get established and then at some point tribes will get together and declare a currency.
I am willing to bet, that prewar money as it is now, will definitely not make as currency in Xsyon.
Money, which only flows in to the market and not out, means, that by the time you guys make an agreement, there is so much of that money in the hands of people and the amount is increasing with each day.. Inflation is simply killing it.
Basically means the same, like every person had a moneyprinting machine under their bed.
It would be nice if the server slowed the pace of scavenging finds based on how much currency is floating around.
In regards of the barter system: i wont like walking into tribes looking for a paticular item, only to find out the seller/trader wants another item (or items) in return... item(s) i dont carry around, so ill have to get back to my own tribe to get the item(s), only to find out when i return to the seller/trader that someone else has already "bought" the items i was looking for. A barter system might work if only a small group of people are involved, but when that groups gets to big, values on items become unclear, making it a mess to trade properly. (this is what happened in the realworld too, disregard who started it, look at the benefits of a set currency.)
Heres an idea, establish a "world bank" which is purely made of people deciding things regarding the currency used to trade items. Entrance of the worldbank by tribes is voluntary, if you dont want to be part its fine. The main goal of the worldbank is to establish a currency sytem. A centralized currency system is the base of a good working tradesystem. With a currency system everyone knows exactly what to bring if you want to buy items, and know exactly what to gain with selling items. If several (if not all) tribes use this currency system trade will become fluent between those tribes but also to people outside those tribes because they also know what to bring when they want to trade.
The worldbank is represented by 1 member of each tribe (lets say tribes with over 10 members, maybe even smaller tribes of 5 if thats what people want, this is just to give a view to the idea). This way every tribe can have a say in the decisions of the worldbank regarding the currency system. (ie a democracy). We dont meddle in prices of items, thats for the buyers/sellers to decide... item prices/value cant be set, they differ according to supply and demand.
So with a worldbank, there isnt a tribe or group of tribes required to have world domination, theres an "agency" overlooking the currency, which isnt an entity just a group of people...
And to those that dont like to have a set currency.... Its in the natur of humans to give value's to everything in our lives, you cant change that.... In regard of the idea that there will be a poor/rich system building when we use a currency... sure there will be people/tribes with more money then others, but there cant be poor people/tribes in a game... If you dont get/earn anything with what you are producing, change production, in RL that might not be easy, but in a game it is :p
I hope this is somewhat clear :) Any questions i will try to answer although some questions cant be answered untill the establishing of this idea :)
Hmmm I say we convince the devs to add in player capture, then we can trade in slaves.
You can't just decide something random is currency. Thinking back, gold was certainly not random. It was rare and usable albeit mostly for looks. A similar material would also have to be put into the game in order for currency really to get started. Think of a material that someone could definitely show off as a sign of their wealth. The rare metals of the earth seem pretty commonplace for currency, but it would be interesting to see something like animal teeth or furs. Maybe even something rare left over from the previous civilization that could be incorporated into crafting recipes for show of wealth.
I totaly agree with you Sorakin, but i think we need an organ (the "world bank") to take such decision. That way we know more then 1 will accept the item(s) as currency :)
No thanks Purifier, you can keep your “agency” (love the name irony).
http://www.getliberty.org/content_images/NoIMF.PNG
I have a sneaking hunch nails and screws will become our common currency and then less common but more useful items will become currency as well. So we might end up with 50~100 nails being worth 1~2 tarps and then some expensive suit of armor would cost so many tarps or its equivalence in nails or screws or other more or less common substitute. Then we will have traders working exchange rates to buy low and sell high while getting more and more for themselves so they can then purchase what ever goods or services they're after. A world bank moderates exchange rates to ensure prices stay fair however we don't need that as traders will create their own rates that may fluctuate based on supply and demand as well as trust and relations.