Whats going on with PvP? Is the main focus only to work on PvE?

I appreciate the responses and look forward to the changes in combat.

We've talked heavily since this thread so most of the combat, ranged and other issues have been addressed elsewhere or to myself personally.

I am excited to see the shift in direction towards making combat something interactive and fun.

From what I can see most of the last test server updates where all really good.

The one and only thing I have to disagree with you is by saying that "The Free to Play system we had for a while was a counterproductive failure." with respect; having more players to play with matters more than any of the issues you've brought up as a reason to not have it.

Now I fully 100% understand this would not fly on pve, so I agree that pve should be kept as a "paid only" server. However; pvp needs the population boost more than pve does so having f2p on pvp would both help the population issue and give people the chance to "try the game" before deciding to buy.

Benefits of adding f2p to pvp greatly outweighs any negative imo;
1)
steam f2p would result in alot of new players playing this game who would otherwise not ever play, buy or even look at this game.
2)
Additional feedback and suggestions on combat features when put on test server if there was more population playing and wanting those features
3)
Additional twitch players would be streaming the game if there was population to play with (currently zero I can see) playing a game where you never see anyone else throughout the series is a real killer, these streams can't become popular is nothing is happening in the world due to nobody in it.
4)
"there are no NPC's in xsyon, players make their own adventure!" How if there isn't other players? You need to either release NPC's or find a way to get more players, f2p solves this by adding more players in order to interact with, this turns paid players into shop keepers and trade totems into high value resources to someone who is f2p since its the only way they could get high end equipment like premium shovels or 20 slot carts, trade would return to xsyon and generate a economy off the needs and wants of f2p players that could only be fulfilled by someone who is paid due to skill limits.
5)
More player interactions. This game is sorely missing player interactions, even if its a band of 3x f2p guys ganking a paid guy (under the correct combat conditions), that makes for good drama since now that guy will grind harder to get stronger, possibly even get a friend to come with them next time so its a 2v3 and maybe they win easily this time. It drives pvp players to become stronger to defend themselves verse someone or to revenge someone.... but if nobody ever attacks anyone and nobody has any grudges verse anyone and nobody is out hunting anyone else, than nobody really needs hps or stats or to grind for them, it kinda eliminates the whole point of pvp type combat games if nothing happens.
6)
Gain some respect back from the steam community that was heavily upset by the monthly fees involved with this game for the longest time; by making this f2p you should shut up all of those haters and gain extra population through people trying it and sharing to friends, but more importantly their friends being open to trying it cuz its f2p.


~Theres 6 good reasons off the top of my head why f2p would help solve issues on pvp server.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have their silly pve vanity server that is same as pvp but with less features, let them keep it as a paid only server for those who want to "opt out" of combat and want to build only, I can totally understand that. F2P would bother these people since they don't want any drama, griefing or combat, they want their trees left alone and nobody to totem drop their carts, they want guides to fix anything that causes them grief, thats what is expected, peace on the server.

But not everybody wants that.

In fact, nobody on pvp wants any of that, thats why there was such division to have two servers cuz you knew you couldn't just simply remove pvp combat from the entire game without upsetting a fair amount of people, so you made two servers intead of just forcing everybody into non-pvp.. again cuz you knew people wanted pvp and combat.

So again while I understand your trying to keep your pve people happy and I appreciate that, its seen generally as a bad move by most people on pvp since its "removed valuable player population and split up the synergy between crafters making good equipment and combat guys who dont make the good equipment". I understand your trying to do your best to make everybody happy, however; Those are the two biggest "core issues". With that being said; these two issues could be solved by adding f2p, since there would be additional players to play with, who would have to trade in lower grade raw materials in exchange for anything decent from a paid player, from a cart, to armor, to weapons, possibly even special tools like saws would all be highly valued by a f2p player and could only be gained from a paid player.

Again I get not wanting to put it on pve, and having it off pve could actually help generate more paid for those who want to "pay to get out of pvp" and just build vanity on pve. It would be clearly pushing people who want to play peace into paying for the game if they wana avoid pvp, while giving pvp more population and people the chance to play WITHOUT upsetting your valued pve population with f2p or pvp... Everybody is a winner here, I don't see the loss or down side.

Having the option to "import" your pvp guy onto pve would be pretty rad feature too, so that way if someone does pay to get out of pvp they can carry on with their guy on pve. Add a warning pop up window that says their tribe would no longer be there on pve, that its just the character transfering and it should be a semi smooth transition.

I paid full price $32 canadian or something for this game recently for my wifes account, before you put the sale up on steam cuz I wanted it attached to her steam account so she wouldnt loose it.

Having f2p, steam only, locked to steam accounts, would prevent abuse since we wouldn't be able to log in without making a whole new steam account, than xsyon account and a new email for it all so I think that would heavily detour abuse.

The point I'm making here is that I've paid my dues and I'm not trying to get f2p accounts for myself to use since we have paid accounts... I'm purely looking at this from a population stand point and how it would benefit the server and feedback by giving more people to test features and suggest changes or features to be added to make combat more fun, more interactive so it feels more fluid, more real, more fun, instead of the generic "broken" that imo really doesn't highlight "what" the problem truely is.

We've gone over the problems lightly but the whole concept of combat is not here.... even real life boxing follows the basic rules of combat;
1)avoid damage
2)deal damage
3)inbetween combat get stronger

This has been true for every combat game since the start, doom, tomb raider, mortal combat, all first person shooters and even evolved into modern titles like dauntless (that is honestly the best example of showing alot of the below combat effects) skyrim ect the list goes on. I get your not a tripple AAA studio but most of the "frame work" is already there, xsyon's combat is already more complex than skyrim with the directional twitch style combat, it just needs to be refined and you could honestly have amazing combat.... Thats why folks play for the first time see the directional combat but than with nothing done beyond that to work with that style of combat its seen as "broken" vaguely since nobody can "put their finger" on what "exactly" makes it broken.

You could take this into more complex concepts like;
a) counter attacks - waiting for the enemy to swing, make them miss, than capitalize on hitting them in the opening. This could be some kind of overswing, a way AAA studios do this is by having the starting slow swing/rear up animation, than a fast attack animation with a slow recovery back to stationary giving the clear visual cue to the player 1) hes attacking and 2) this is the opening to hit him after
b) hit recovery - if you hit someone with a heavy full power hit, it should have some kind of effect (fast hits dont apply) this could be a hit recovery, this could be causing them to lose their charged up hit, could even be a stamina hit
c) parry - avoid damage while opening up the ability to deal damage, this could be a stun, this could be a hit recovery action, this could be stamina hit
d) block - avoid damage, take stamina damage, more complex could be parry blocks or shield bashes that smack the weapon hand out of the way opening up the ability to deal damage
e) lunge attack - stamina used to do a forward leaping/lunge attack. This could be under dodge skill and would be great for polearms and getting in quickly to capitalize on a opening to deal damage

These are just the basic concepts off the top of my head that are planned around when your building combat in order to make combat that feels good, real and interactive. A fair amount of my friends work in building games so I've picked up a fair amount over the years, I've even helped them come up with ideas that have made it into some of their games as solutions to issues they brought up.

Having those above player changes would mean the world for pvp, but for pve verse creatures you would also than need to change the creatures to be more interactive than a 1990's mmo where they just walk up to you and spam the same single attack repeatedly (this could be why it feels broken or rather out dated and non interactive)

So instead of having a creature that just repeatedly spams a single attack while you spam your single attack till one of you dies like a bad game from 1990s, you would also need to change creatures to have more interactive combat. So they feel alive with weakness instead of a mindless zealot till they die, that should be every game designers goal, or at least thats what I'm told.

Somethings you gotta keep in mind to have a good interactive creature:
1.1) Multiple attacks - if all they are doing is spamming the same single attack with the same timing than players can easily exploit this like your walking back combat you want to avoid. By making the attacks different, with different responses required to each attack, you remove the ability for players to use the same trick verse every attack since it won't work for every attack. Some basic attack types to choose from that would work are:
a) power lunge attack - rear up slowly to show its going to leap forward and lunge forward, this needs to be locked in the direction that the lunge attack starts at so that the player can side step or side dodge in order to avoid the lunge. There also needs to be some kind of slow overswing/recovery to default that opens up the ability for the player to hit them at least once while they are locked in that direction.
b) quick attack - this could be what the default attack is "currently" on servers and not what was tested on last test. What I mean by this is that you can "see" the start of the swing happen with enough time to parry and if you make them miss, the overswing/recovery to default speed is long enough to hit them, this is what the goal should be; I'm not suggesting leaving old bugged code or "putting it back", I'm just saying it needs to be recoded to work like this. Lunge attack would prevent the ability for someone to walk back in a line.
c) swipe attack - like lunge attack it would give a "different' rearing/wind up animation than do a sweeping attack around the front half of the creature so if someone side steps or side dodges to avoid a lunge attack, they would still get hit with the sweeping wide swing attack
1.2) With these 3x attacks you would have different attacks and different responses to each, lunge you would need to side step or side dodge, swipe you would have to roll backwards or dodge backwards or walk back instead of to the side, quick attack you would need to parry or block or avoid.
2)creatures need to be alive, feel pain, when you hit them there needs to be a reaction (you already have a hit recovery action in game)
3)creatures need counter play, this means you need the ability hit put them into hit recovery, or wound them, or stun them with a heavy blow, all the above player suggestions need to effect these animals.
4) counter attack, if a creature lunges at you and you smack them with a heavy attack before they hit you in the lunge animation, than you should heavily damage them and stun them, possibly forcing them to lay down unable to combat till the stun animation is over.

My "best advise" is to download dauntless; its free and will show you how I think end game combat should be in this game. Ignore the flashy graphics, ignore the big fancy attacks; focus on the concept; the concept of the monster attacking and leaving openings after... and beyond that, if a creature "charges" you like the wolf guy is the best example, if you time a power attack at him charging you and you smack him first, than he gets smacked to the ground and has to recover back to his feet. Do you run? Do you try to hit him charging at you? Do you fail and get smoked by the charge? this is interesting combat.

Adding wounding, broken bones or bleeding mechanics would also be good, you could have bats/maces do more limb braking damage and have things like knives do bleeding damage and axes do half wounding half bleeding... LOTS of options here.

I get thats alot to process but thats more or less the combat bible and the base concepts you should be asking yourself when thinking about the direction of combat; how can I make this more interactive. I made it easy on ya I think with this post, I know your not a combat programmer but at least you know the direction and concepts you should be thinking about.

Let me start off by saying there is a lot of good info here and ideas. Many I've already said long before.

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Originally Posted by Static

You could take this into more complex concepts like;
a) counter attacks - waiting for the enemy to swing, make them miss, than capitalize on hitting them in the opening. This could be some kind of overswing, a way AAA studios do this is by having the starting slow swing/rear up animation, than a fast attack animation with a slow recovery back to stationary giving the clear visual cue to the player 1) hes attacking and 2) this is the opening to hit him after

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We had this already in charged attacks with parry. No one uses it. The reason why is because it's highly ping focused and in like a lot of games, you are better off getting a hit in for sure than trying to parry for a chance to get it right.
This works well in games like Mount and Blade. Where you can control the ping a lot better, they are more focused on combat.

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Originally Posted by Static

b) hit recovery - if you hit someone with a heavy full power hit, it should have some kind of effect (fast hits dont apply) this could be a hit recovery, this could be causing them to lose their charged up hit, could even be a stamina hit

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I like this idea. However, I think removing the charged attacks are going to be happening, so what this could be is simply a delay/stun (very very short) in when they can attack again.

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Originally Posted by Static

c) parry - avoid damage while opening up the ability to deal damage, this could be a stun, this could be a hit recovery action, this could be stamina hit

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Great job on getting him to see this, I've said this a while back. Really good to see it put into place.

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Originally Posted by Static

d) block - avoid damage, take stamina damage, more complex could be parry blocks or shield bashes that smack the weapon hand out of the way opening up the ability to deal damage

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I would love to see some shields put into game. I'm not sure he can do it without an artist but yes to this. Please yes. Really going to be needed when archery comes out soon too.

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Originally Posted by Static

e) lunge attack - stamina used to do a forward leaping/lunge attack. This could be under dodge skill and would be great for polearms and getting in quickly to capitalize on a opening to deal damage

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Would love to see this for all attacks, but could really make group combat with a back line having more ranged but slower attacks with a polearm/archery. Lunges would really add skill to all types of combat here.

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Originally Posted by Static

1.1) Multiple attacks - if all they are doing is spamming the same single attack with the same timing than players can easily exploit this like your walking back combat you want to avoid. By making the attacks different, with different responses required to each attack, you remove the ability for players to use the same trick verse every attack since it won't work for every attack. Some basic attack types to choose from that would work are:
a) power lunge attack - rear up slowly to show its going to leap forward and lunge forward, this needs to be locked in the direction that the lunge attack starts at so that the player can side step or side dodge in order to avoid the lunge. There also needs to be some kind of slow overswing/recovery to default that opens up the ability for the player to hit them at least once while they are locked in that direction.
b) quick attack - this could be what the default attack is "currently" on servers and not what was tested on last test. What I mean by this is that you can "see" the start of the swing happen with enough time to parry and if you make them miss, the overswing/recovery to default speed is long enough to hit them, this is what the goal should be; I'm not suggesting leaving old bugged code or "putting it back", I'm just saying it needs to be recoded to work like this. Lunge attack would prevent the ability for someone to walk back in a line.
c) swipe attack - like lunge attack it would give a "different' rearing/wind up animation than do a sweeping attack around the front half of the creature so if someone side steps or side dodges to avoid a lunge attack, they would still get hit with the sweeping wide swing attack
1.2) With these 3x attacks you would have different attacks and different responses to each, lunge you would need to side step or side dodge, swipe you would have to roll backwards or dodge backwards or walk back instead of to the side, quick attack you would need to parry or block or avoid.
2)creatures need to be alive, feel pain, when you hit them there needs to be a reaction (you already have a hit recovery action in game)
3)creatures need counter play, this means you need the ability hit put them into hit recovery, or wound them, or stun them with a heavy blow, all the above player suggestions need to effect these animals.
4) counter attack, if a creature lunges at you and you smack them with a heavy attack before they hit you in the lunge animation, than you should heavily damage them and stun them, possibly forcing them to lay down unable to combat till the stun animation is over.

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Loving all of this. You can even add more to the list.

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Originally Posted by Static

Adding wounding, broken bones or bleeding mechanics would also be good, you could have bats/maces do more limb braking damage and have things like knives do bleeding damage and axes do half wounding half bleeding... LOTS of options here.

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I love these ideas, but before you can put too much of it in, you also need a way to fix them. How you going to fix bleeding or a broken bone? We need that stuff put in before you make it in.