best of the best of the best of the best

ok. Just to hilight a problem...from a min max standpoint wwhats the 'best'.

armor: bone? is there a reason to wear anything other than bone if you know you're going to be fighting?

weapon: Does it matter which weapon...po axes and hammers are pretty brutal, is there any reason to use anything other than a po axe (since you can chop down trees with it as well).

clothes: Is there a reason to wear clothes? do they do anything besides encumber (i haven't noticed)

food: is there a reason to eat anything besides fish?

skills: is there a reason to take anything besides basketry and tool making?

so yeah...best of the best list.

Master Quality bone armor and Master Quailty offhand weapon with a PO is min max. (or supreme quality, if people can make those)

Ooo that was hard.




We need a lot better gear and make it harder to make than just "you need master quailty resources and high level skill"

Ideally i would like to see something like this

current armor sets now master quality < rare resource armor sets poor quality < very rare resource armor sets poor quality < rare resources high quality < very rare resources moderate quality < very rare resource master quality set




then they need something like gems or enchants (wow anyone? sorry) however, these wont be like WoW and extremely easy and invaluable to add to your gear (unlike WoW, everyone wont have enchants and gems (or what you can simply call additional upgrade bonuses, for lack of a better term)... these will be very, very, very rare and only the best of the best will have them. perhaps not rare in the sense that we do not know the location of the resources needed to craft additional upgrade bonuses...but rare in the sense that there are only a handful of locations to get these very rare resources and to get them you need to be A) really lucky and have no one else in the area looking for those resources or B) bring a party with you to defend while trying to find and gather rare resources.





that was extremely easy to think of in less than 10 minutes....come on devs you can do this.


so yes...something like that...of course much more specific. the rarer, the more time invested = the better (time invested comes from finding rare item and leveling skills up to high 90s-100 (which isn't exactly that difficult as is. i think it needs to take about 3x as much XP to hit 100 in ALL skills



edit: and even better would be soft caps on gear upgrades.



say it took 10 of item A to get +1 upgrade. then the next time you wanted to upgrade, it would cost 20 of those said items. Then the next time it would cost 40.

so you could get +3 upgrade for 70 of item A, or you could get +1 upgrade for 10 of item A. That is how a soft cap works. Armor upgrades would not decay. So in theory a piece of armor could be come legendary (take months and months)...and could make a single player able to take on a half dozen players in a battle. However, this piece of gear wouldn't be owned by any old homesteader, most likely...as it would be tough for a single player to obtain the resources needed to craft these upgrades to the armor. not to mention, it would be much harder to take down the player with the armor if he was in a tribe, because the rest of the players would protect him.

if someone was to lose the armor, they could always get it back by RETALIATING and then proceeding to LOOT the piece of armor back that they lost. in t his sense, t he armor will never decay or destroy over time ( just decay through being damaged, like normal) and also, you can never permanently lose that piece of gear unless the enemy deletes it. However, the gear would be so legendary, they wouldn't delete it they would keep it for themselves. so there would always be a chance to get your loots back

a system like this = INFINITE RISK REWARD.

this is really making me want to sit down and take hours and hours to make a very detalied system on how to add VALUE to items. and make their value essentially LIMITLESS

i think i may just do that. thanks Dubanka

Good stuff

The poinT of my soft pitch over the middle wass to illustrate how confined the games systems are (currently). In the other thread jordi states he wants balance...one part of that balance equation is the balance of 'stuff'.

Every single useable item should have a reason you could use it - we should be able to make an arguement where grass armor is the 'best' option for a given scenario...or cloth, leather,etc.

This isnt just a pvp thing, this is actually more of a crafting/economy thing. What is th point of having hhundreds of different crafting option if, at the end. Of the day, you only need a dozen, because those are the 'best'. If only bone armor is worthwhile, then guess what, youll only have people making and wearing bone armor.

There is no scenariio where that is good design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

Good stuff

The poinT of my soft pitch over the middle wass to illustrate how confined the games systems are (currently). In the other thread jordi states he wants balance...one part of that balance equation is the balance of 'stuff'.

Every single useable item should have a reason you could use it - we should be able to make an arguement where grass armor is the 'best' option for a given scenario...or cloth, leather,etc.

This isnt just a pvp thing, this is actually more of a crafting/economy thing. What is th point of having hhundreds of different crafting option if, at the end. Of the day, you only need a dozen, because those are the 'best'. If only bone armor is worthwhile, then guess what, youll only have people making and wearing bone armor.

There is no scenariio where that is good design.

---

Dub, I agree. I really hope this doesnt turn into a PVP vs carebear thing. But really this hits the nail on the head.

Right now everything someone crafts is really for no reason. Why should I wear any armor at all? 100% safe area when Im doing anything. I kill bears in 1 or 2 hits. I can run from anyone thats attacking me (because Im lighter). So there goes a need for armor or clothes other than looking cool.

Weapons. I have a preorder thats better than any other weapon Ive seen yet. I see no need to have any other weapon type as they all do about the same stuff. Knifes are a little better while having desync and lag issues I would say, but really no reason to use it other than that. (I normally use it in water as that's the main problem with using slower weapons). But Clubs vs Axes vs Shovels vs Knives offer no reason other than looks to choose one over another. This isnt even getting into the TYPES of axes. Why should I make AB axe over BC axe? If they are both master QL they do the same damage attack with the same speed. Its only looks that are different. Weapon type, and weapon choice have no effect on what type of armor someone is wearing. They do the same damage.

Tools, really the only choice in tools is "Am I going to grind with it" or "Am I going to use it for high QL making items". Which is good, but there are 4+ types of tools for each tool. I see no real reason other than if you have the mats or not to choose one over the other. There is no bonus for using say a screwdriver on bone armor vs using it with making another tool. Mostly though I think tools are doing pretty good, but could be better.

Wall types. 100% looks here because HP and other factors are not even in yet. Why even build a wall at all?

Food so far is fish diet only for me. But that's kinda to be expected because of the no cooking skill in the game. I just hope that once it is in the game they have more effects than simply how fast it fills up your hunger bar.


I think the end thought of all this is "Why" at the end of the day why would people want to do any of this? This is where IMO I think PVP and Stronger PVE mobs come into play. Right now no monster in game bothers me at all, it will take many hits even naked for a monster in game to kill me. Bears are the hardest hitting ones and they are a joke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

I think the end thought of all this is "Why" at the end of the day why would people want to do any of this?

---

This...

GMing skills and hording resources kept me busy for a while(in hopes of the game getting some direction), but in the end I do nothing with either.

The why for me is having something to play where I can make a mark on a persistent world. and relax while doing it.

I have been the alpha male type, own everything, control everything and be known far and wide by my rep in most games I have played. I am very bored of that.

Here I can relax, enjoy building up a good tribe, create a interesting town with others that like doing the same thing and see if I can play differently here and have different goals than just dominate and control. What I am working on here takes much more thought and planning.

Plus, I have a lot of patience. I can easily wait till things are put in that will draw players here. I'm NOT really worried. If this folds it is only a game after all and I'll find another. But the true reason I'm not worried is from what I have seen this game will eventually pull it off... may take a while, but by then I will have any skill I need to play in the way I like.

Besides, I have been adding new members to my tribe weekly since I started it after leaving Regulators. Either the game is still enjoyed by many and I'm doing something right, or I'm delusional.

Yes... sigh... I know which you think it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mactavendish

The why for me is having something to play where I can make a mark on a persistent world. and relax while doing it.

I have been the alpha male type, own everything, control everything and be known far and wide by my rep in most games I have played. I am very bored of that.

Here I can relax, enjoy building up a good tribe, create a interesting town with others that like doing the same thing and see if I can play differently here and have different goals than just dominate and control. What I am working on here takes much more thought and planning.

Plus, I have a lot of patience. I can easily wait till things are put in that will draw players here. I'm NOT really worried. If this folds it is only a game after all and I'll find another. But the true reason I'm not worried is from what I have seen this game will eventually pull it off... may take a while, but by then I will have any skill I need to play in the way I like.

Besides, I have been adding new members to my tribe weekly since I started it after leaving Regulators. Either the game is still enjoyed by many and I'm doing something right, or I'm delusional.

Yes... sigh... I know which you think it is.

---

No offense but "many" is not a term I would using who is playing this game. Let alone saying its enjoyed by many.

Im with you in the fact that the game can pull it off. Right now I think its not pulling it off. Its getting there slowly, time will tell and I'm here for more than one reason.

Mac maybe you can be one where you are happy playing the life of Sim world with the other 3 to 10 people playing with you. Most (and many) are not like that. They need more. The "WHY" is very important. Right now the only reason "WHY" is because "I can". That wears off fast for most/many people.

I would love to know what other games you have played where you have owned everything and controlled everything etc.

why? so we can compare epeens?

You have to admit that most player have shown themselves very impatient. You probably feel this is a proper response to the current state of affairs, but as Xsyon said this is an evolving and changing game where things are where he expected them to be at this stage. Your problem is they are not where YOU want them to be.

You are actually right that many need more, where you don't seem to get it is that with the exception of a very few on these forums, your vision for the game is not as accepted as you have convinced yourself it is. The players have the ability to chose what they like and dislike, and sure don't need you to dictate what they should have or get, any more than they should bend to my perspective.

To me all these threads are a self-correcting errors. Those that don't get what they want will leave to be replaced by those that like what they get, and NOBODY will care or remember all this posturing.

Also since it is real people that play here, real people feelings, desires, wants and needs come into play. You are convinced that "most" agree with you. The 22 members of my tribe do not. They actually enjoy crafting just to do it. Do they want more? Of course! I do too, we are just patiently playing and building and trying things out till it is here.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.

If you like checkers you will play it .. alot.. and often.. others will feel you are crazy and that checkers is the most boring thing in the world... but YOU won't because you love checkers.

Maybe you want others to agree with you because you feel you are so smart and have it all figured out... other posters have pointed out alternatives to your view point and you never listen to them ... Maybe they just like checkers .. online checkers... with shovels and fishing... and terraforming

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mactavendish

To me all these threads are a self-correcting errors. Those that don't get what they want will leave to be replaced by those that like what they get, and NOBODY will care or remember all this posturing.

---

According to this statement then the devs could do no wrong, and any choice they make will correct themselves. Which I cant agree with.

If they say make the game that is 100% white screen that blinds you and has painful sound coming out of it. It would be horrid for the game and the game would fail as would the support.

The vision the devs have of the game is theirs, but they also dont know all, and they have sometimes less exp in some areas than players. So players giving feedback (and opinions) sometimes is what they need and want.

Like the combat system. They know they wanted a new combat system, but they didnt know how to do it. People told them about M&B and now they are asking for more feedback on how it should work. I think this is one of the best things about this dev team. They listen to the players. Its truly a sandbox like that.


I want to know what games you have played to understand better what you feel is controlling everything in those games. Playing WOW and having a level 80 is a far cry from playing Darkfall and having everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mactavendish

why? so we can compare epeens?

You have to admit that most player have shown themselves very impatient. You probably feel this is a proper response to the current state of affairs, but as Xsyon said this is an evolving and changing game where things are where he expected them to be at this stage. Your problem is they are not where YOU want them to be.

You are actually right that many need more, where you don't seem to get it is that with the exception of a very few on these forums, your vision for the game is not as accepted as you have convinced yourself it is. The players have the ability to chose what they like and dislike, and sure don't need you to dictate what they should have or get, any more than they should bend to my perspective.

To me all these threads are a self-correcting errors. Those that don't get what they want will leave to be replaced by those that like what they get, and NOBODY will care or remember all this posturing.

Also since it is real people that play here, real people feelings, desires, wants and needs come into play. You are convinced that "most" agree with you. The 22 members of my tribe do not. They actually enjoy crafting just to do it. Do they want more? Of course! I do too, we are just patiently playing and building and trying things out till it is here.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.

If you like checkers you will play it .. alot.. and often.. others will feel you are crazy and that checkers is the most boring thing in the world... but YOU won't because you love checkers.

Maybe you want others to agree with you because you feel you are so smart and have it all figured out... other posters have pointed out alternatives to your view point and you never listen to them ... Maybe they just like checkers .. online checkers... with shovels and fishing... and terraforming

---

Patience. Players are very impatient when they are paying for a product. You pay money, you expect a service to be delivered to a certain level. When it isn't a) first you get upset and try to get the service delivered that was promised and b) when it isn't you simply elect to spend your money elsewhere. If we didn't pay for something you'd have a valid point....but we did, so you don't.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.
Again this is 100% wrong. In the other thread in the Barracks forum, we are asking...begging even... PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOUR INTENT IS. The core problem with this development is the vagueness...we have enough information to see what we want to in the game, but everybody sees something different. We just need to be told what the deal is, what the intent is, so we can get on to helping it work, or get on to getting the f!@# out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

Patience. Players are very impatient when they are paying for a product. You pay money, you expect a service to be delivered to a certain level. When it isn't a) first you get upset and try to get the service delivered that was promised and b) when it isn't you simply elect to spend your money elsewhere. If we didn't pay for something you'd have a valid point....but we did, so you don't.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.
Again this is 100% wrong. In the other thread in the Barracks forum, we are asking...begging even... PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOUR INTENT IS. The core problem with this development is the vagueness...we have enough information to see what we want to in the game, but everybody sees something different. We just need to be told what the deal is, what the intent is, so we can get on to helping it work, or get on to getting the f!@# out.

---

But the thing is. You're not even paying. You paid the normal amount of money for the game and can now enjoy an online world free for the time being.
You're asking about intents? Since when..?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VeryWiiTee

But the thing is. You're not even paying. You paid the normal amount of money for the game and can now enjoy an online world free for the time being.
You're asking about intents? Since when..?!

---

correction. paid normal amount of money for a finished game, and instead got a product that is still very much in an alpha state. I know i know, should have known, blah blah blah...bottom line, money was taken, and they are charging for the service. But like everything else, some people have different tolerances for not getting what they paid for...some just shrug it off, some raise a unholy shitfit, others grumble and just vow to never 'come back'.

Do i really need to go back over my posts for the last several months where i ask for a definitive statement on what is the intent of the game design? I know there have been more than a couple of times when jadzia and i had agreement on the subject, even if from polar opposite perspectives.

anyway, the point of this post was to illustrate that 99% of what you can do is pointless...except for the act of doing it yourself.

The point of the post was not to discuss my relatively high level of impatience, or how I choose to try to hold someone accountable after they've taken my money.

there are hundreds of weapon and armor patterns...however your 'best' choice in armor boils down to bone, or naked. Why should i make cloth armor? WHat advantage does it afford me over bone...besides encumbrance. WHy should i use x axe over y axe? WHy should i just a hammer over an axe? does it matter?

This is me being a carebear. Everything should have value and be worthwhile in its own right. Hell, i think you should have to skill up in the specific item to make it well...ie. the skill % unlocks the pattern, but you have to practice that specific item to obtain mastery in it...

but again, every item should have function and should have a very good reason for using it...and potential downsides to using it as well. Now it's all about resistance vs. speed.

The initial post shows a very poor understanding of the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

armor: bone? is there a reason to wear anything other than bone if you know you're going to be fighting?

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No, but you rarely "know you're going to be fighting." This really only happens when there is someone right outside your camp you want to kill. Normally, if you leave your camp to log, hunt, gather, even PvP, then bone is too heavy to be worth the extra weight if you are going any distance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

weapon: Does it matter which weapon...po axes and hammers are pretty brutal, is there any reason to use anything other than a po axe (since you can chop down trees with it as well).

---

If you want to hunt, then PO knives will get more bones. If you want to do a lot of terraforming , then the PO shovel will never wear out. If you plan to settle a rocky area, then taking the PO pick still won't have a long use, but it will do as much damage as an axe and you won't be one of the same as the crowd that choose an axe. Of course, new players don't get PO weapons, so this point is moot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

clothes: Is there a reason to wear clothes? do they do anything besides encumber (i haven't noticed)

---

You won't understand that looks are important for some people. Admittedly, comfort isn't in the game now, but eventually running around naked in the winter should provide penalties. Of course, the biggest knock on not wearing cloths is that it announces to the world "I'm a naked ganker." Since people can tell from a long ways away that you are into PvP but aren't risking anything, they will avoid contact with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

food: is there a reason to eat anything besides fish?

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Why should anyone spend time fishing? You can forage anywhere. By improving your forage skill you can find better quality resources that may have a use at some point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

skills: is there a reason to take anything besides basketry and tool making?

---

Taking toolmaking at the start is probably the worst choices a starting player can make (along with masonry and woodcraft, but these secondary crafts shouldn't be starting choices). The highest tool recipe is level 5 and it is easy to gain skill. Weapon making and architecture start with better tools for toolmaking, and since it is harder to gather the resources for weapons/buildings the extra 20 skill points save you more time.

Basket making is good only because it is the only way you can make containers. Right now, since baskets don't wear out, the only reason to be a high level basket maker is for high quality twine. Basketry might sound good for the anti-social loner that never wants to trade, but in reality you will have a harder (read near impossible if you don't start with the right tool recipe) time getting the tools to continue crafting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

ok. Just to hilight a problem...from a min max standpoint wwhats the 'best'.

---

This is the biggest misunderstanding. Xsyon is not the right game for min-maxers. The numbers are hidden by design to encourage players to diversify and experiment.

For the min-maxer, there are plenty of games out there where you can go on the forums and find out that: "This is June. The FOTM class is the NecroRogue. The best build and gear for the NecroRogue is ...." You can also play these games where you and four other NecroRogues spend hours in chat begging for a healer so you can get the gear you want.

Ravelli

Ravelli have you played this game?
Because you are wrong in so many points that are not opinions but facts.

OP knives do NOT yield more bones.
Shovels already dont wear out.
Water is pretty much in 2 mins of or less of anywhere on the map. Fishing is by far the fastest way to get hunger up.

I mean I can go on.
This game is easy for MIN-Maxers. You can train every skill in the game and that's the best way to be good at everything to be everything. Major issues with that. I would rather play a game with classes, then a game in which has no soft cap and people are forced to train every skill in the game to compete.
I would rather have a softcap, stat cap, and choices in how I want to make my necro/rogue/mage/warrior/priest.

How can you tell people are into PVP from a long ways away? Heck I cant even see a persons name until they are in like 80m of me, I lose site of people at 110m.

FYI I always wear bone armor. Just throwing that out there.

Sorry, but better quality knives do yield more bones and get less failures. A couple wipes ago I chose hunting but picked the PO axe. I typically had 1-2 complete failures de-boning a critter. Currently, with a PO or VHQ knife and the same 25 hunting skill (never raises, never put points into it), I have never had a complete failure and usually get the max number of bones. I've haven't done any teraforming since decay went in, so I haven't checked on shovel wear.

Eating fish is the fastest way to get hunger up, but for time spent gathering you can get as full with foraging. In the time it takes for one cast, I can forage 3-4 times. You never catch more than one fish at a time, while foraging can find multiple munchies. My point is that fishing isn't the obvious only choice. If a soft cap is implemented, I'd rather have high scavenging/foraging/logging/hunting than fishing.

I can't tell if someone is into PvP, but I can see if they are naked long before they get within weapons range. I'm more wary around naked players because they may be an "I don't want to risk anything" ganker. You always go out looking for player combat which makes my point on when you should wear bone armor. If I go far from camp, I'm looking to haul back bones or handles so I wear leather as a tradeoff of protection for weight.

The typical min-maxer is looking to be over powered with the least effort. Maxing all skills isn't a min-maxer strategy.

I'm not arguing against soft caps, Xsyon needs them. It also needs reasons like comfort for the stuff that's in the game now. My point is that there are reasons to use things currently in the game that you and the OP don't see.

Ravelli

it's like bizarro land.

you're right, i've just got a very poor understanding of the game.

/boggle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thurgond

Sorry, but better quality knives do yield more bones and get less failures. A couple wipes ago I chose hunting but picked the PO axe. I typically had 1-2 complete failures de-boning a critter. Currently, with a PO or VHQ knife and the same 25 hunting skill (never raises, never put points into it), I have never had a complete failure and usually get the max number of bones. I've haven't done any teraforming since decay went in, so I haven't checked on shovel wear.

Eating fish is the fastest way to get hunger up, but for time spent gathering you can get as full with foraging. In the time it takes for one cast, I can forage 3-4 times. You never catch more than one fish at a time, while foraging can find multiple munchies. My point is that fishing isn't the obvious only choice. If a soft cap is implemented, I'd rather have high scavenging/foraging/logging/hunting than fishing.

I can't tell if someone is into PvP, but I can see if they are naked long before they get within weapons range. I'm more wary around naked players because they may be an "I don't want to risk anything" ganker. You always go out looking for player combat which makes my point on when you should wear bone armor. If I go far from camp, I'm looking to haul back bones or handles so I wear leather as a tradeoff of protection for weight.

The typical min-maxer is looking to be over powered with the least effort. Maxing all skills isn't a min-maxer strategy.

I'm not arguing against soft caps, Xsyon needs them. It also needs reasons like comfort for the stuff that's in the game now. My point is that there are reasons to use things currently in the game that you and the OP don't see.

Ravelli

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How do you want me to prove it that QL of the knife has no effect on how many bones you get? It does effect the QL of the bones but not the amount of bones.

Well in the future we have no idea what skills will be worth to get or not.

If you are wearing leather, and Im naked, you wont be able to run as fast just FYI. So I dont really see that point. Second is that currently there is a bug that if you travel shows everyone as naked. Third is I would still wear bone armor. Its way to good for combat, its not near heavy enough. If Im doing anything I have my stuff in a bin, and if Im attacked and need to run or drop weight, I drop a bin (set to private) and now I can fight or run at max speed. Again no reason NOT to wear bone armor. Then I get over weight and kill myself to insta teleport with all my items back to town. (Sorry takes 30s)

Your right, a typical min-maxer is looking to do it in the least effort, guess what? Here they need every skill in the game, they are likely to do the skills that dont give them as much exp last.

My point is all your reasons, I dont agree with. I have more skills than you, I have better gear armor weapons etc and guess what I see no reason for it. In fact Im using the lowest QL weapons I can find because Im training my skills, and if Im in combat to the death I use the PO.
Tell me why I should use leather over Bone armor? Heck tell me why I should use Deathbone armor over Carson? or the other way around?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mactavendish

why? so we can compare epeens?

You have to admit that most player have shown themselves very impatient. You probably feel this is a proper response to the current state of affairs, but as Xsyon said this is an evolving and changing game where things are where he expected them to be at this stage. Your problem is they are not where YOU want them to be.

You are actually right that many need more, where you don't seem to get it is that with the exception of a very few on these forums, your vision for the game is not as accepted as you have convinced yourself it is. The players have the ability to chose what they like and dislike, and sure don't need you to dictate what they should have or get, any more than they should bend to my perspective.

To me all these threads are a self-correcting errors. Those that don't get what they want will leave to be replaced by those that like what they get, and NOBODY will care or remember all this posturing.

Also since it is real people that play here, real people feelings, desires, wants and needs come into play. You are convinced that "most" agree with you. The 22 members of my tribe do not. They actually enjoy crafting just to do it. Do they want more? Of course! I do too, we are just patiently playing and building and trying things out till it is here.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.

If you like checkers you will play it .. alot.. and often.. others will feel you are crazy and that checkers is the most boring thing in the world... but YOU won't because you love checkers.

Maybe you want others to agree with you because you feel you are so smart and have it all figured out... other posters have pointed out alternatives to your view point and you never listen to them ... Maybe they just like checkers .. online checkers... with shovels and fishing... and terraforming

---

Quoted for the truth.. Mactavendish.. I have to agree totally with you.. No matter what game you play there are always people who are not happy with the way things are and try and change things.. Never happy with the way things are ..

Its actually a more and more common problem with games now days.. You see dev's listening to a vocal minority simply because they make the most noise on forums etc.. And what happens when Dev's listen to a vocal minority is the rest (the majority) suffer. Mainly because the majority of people never visit the forums.. or maybe only once in a long time..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfgar

Quoted for the truth.. Mactavendish.. I have to agree totally with you.. No matter what game you play there are always people who are not happy with the way things are and try and change things.. Never happy with the way things are ..

Its actually a more and more common problem with games now days.. You see dev's listening to a vocal minority simply because they make the most noise on forums etc.. And what happens when Dev's listen to a vocal minority is the rest (the majority) suffer. Mainly because the majority of people never visit the forums.. or maybe only once in a long time..

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OK. since you're hijacking my thread with your ass kissery...going to have to crush this one.

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My vision has never changed. What is required to bring about the vision is what changes because if things don't work out as intended, they must be rethought and reworked. That's how the game evolves.

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How do the devs know if things are working as intended if they never get any feedback that they aren't, because players implicitly know that the devs will recognize that systems are broken and will magically fix them?

There is another jordi quote somewhere where he states that the game will evolve as the playerbase determines...how will they know that if they don't get feedback?

In the current scenario, the dev group should actually be happy that there are still people who are sticking around providing feedback about whats working, not, and is broken...since most of the population simply bailed. Saying, '...everything is just wonderful...and even if its not, i'm patient, and trust that the devs will get it all fixed...' is simply not constructive. Everything is obviously not wonderful (see population diaspora)..at least not for a majority of players and the devs OBVIOUSLY need players to help get things where they need to be (see that they opened the test server to expired accounts...they did that to *gasp* get more players testing the systems and providing feedback).

So take your everything is wonderful, thank you for your hard work, i love you and want to have your babies thoughts and start your own thread.

This thread is about how 95% of crafted items are worthless...or rather pointless to make...because they are either functionally obsolete (cloth/leather/grass armor), pointless (clothes), redundant (95% of weapons), or of significantly less value than shoudl be the case (any weapon that is not a PO weapon).

This conversation is designed to hopefully stimulate ideas to change this condition. Agree, disagree, state your own conclusion, whatever...I mean even ravelli's post is good since he's calling me out for just being stupid and uneducated on the systems...and why (he's wrong, but that's besides the point :p ). Discussion is good. Discussion is necessary. Attempting to Stifle discussion because the enclosed critique of [whatever] is seen as a slight to the work of the dev team is just stupid.

So please, by all means, if you ahve data that can prove that grass armor is actually awesome and worth wear, or leather or cloth, as compared to either a) being naked --for speed or b) wearing bone --for protection...please, by all means, spell it out. IF you have data that shows that weapons are in fact unique and each model has value beyond being merely vanity...please spell it out.

Step 1. Fix the combat mechanics - IN PROGRESS
Step 2. Fix the combat equipment - PENDING
Step 3. Balance the equipment as it relates to the mechanics.

Voila, working combat system.

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

IF you have data that shows that weapons are in fact unique and each model has value beyond being merely vanity...please spell it out.

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Uhm, dunno man, but I'm pretty sure you don't mean to say that the devs went through the trouble of such diversity thinking it was all about vanity...

I mean, sure, feedback is great! On the other hand, I'm also pretty sure you're well aware of where things are at from a completed development standpoint. You seem a relatively astute individual.

Take food for example... click on the cooking icon recently? Anything happen? I don't think the icon was put into place because it looked purty on the screen... clearly it's not in yet and there's a lot on the shelves waiting to be taken down and implemented.

Would I be able to provide data that the Gathering suit is meant more of a light scouting armor / summer hiking armor than say Bone which is more of a heavy armor?
Bah, don't have data, no. But I'm sure you know that's the long-term intent...

Weapons? Is it working as it might in the future when development has reached it? I mean honestly, you think the devs think all is hankydory in that department and would leave it alone were it not for you making this thread? I find it hard to believe that.

I figure in the future(however distant), all the weapons will have varying efficacy in accordance with your opponent's armor. Archery and blades may be more effective against bone as there are spaces to slide through in the rib chest armor. Grass may be so tightly woven it protects better against archery BUT, it offers little padding protection against clubs bludgeoning the enemy or sparring buddy.

Any of this really that hard to imagine? Wouldn't have thought so.
Currently implemented? You know it isn't.

To be implemented in the next month? Wouldn't presume so, and wouldn't have thought you would either.

There's abundant proof that feedback is considered by the devs and indeed by the boss himself. We don't even have to go through an intermediary but rather get direct feedback from the top. Feedback seems very appreciated and is acknowledged.

But pointing to things as if assuming they are complete when you should, by now, easily be able to extrapolate the intent seems kinda silly.

You may say you shouldn't have to pay for a product with incomplete features, and you don't have to. Our feedback is still taken even if we are not currently subscribed.

You used to say that the combat revamp will fail because the experts of VD and other warring tribes won't be around to test it... well, test server is open to all...
Rather than use that to point to population issues, why not see it as having listened to what you were saying and addressed it promptly?

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Originally Posted by Book

Uhm, dunno man, but I'm pretty sure you don't mean to say that the devs went through the trouble of such diversity thinking it was all about vanity...

I mean, sure, feedback is great! On the other hand, I'm also pretty sure you're well aware of where things are at from a completed development standpoint. You seem a relatively astute individual.

Take food for example... click on the cooking icon recently? Anything happen? I don't think the icon was put into place because it looked purty on the screen... clearly it's not in yet and there's a lot on the shelves waiting to be taken down and implemented.

Would I be able to provide data that the Gathering suit is meant more of a light scouting armor / summer hiking armor than say Bone which is more of a heavy armor?
Bah, don't have data, no. But I'm sure you know that's the long-term intent...

Weapons? Is it working as it might in the future when development has reached it? I mean honestly, you think the devs think all is hankydory in that department and would leave it alone were it not for you making this thread? I find it hard to believe that.

I figure in the future(however distant), all the weapons will have varying efficacy in accordance with your opponent's armor. Archery and blades may be more effective against bone as there are spaces to slide through in the rib chest armor. Grass may be so tightly woven it protects better against archery BUT, it offers little padding protection against clubs bludgeoning the enemy or sparring buddy.

Any of this really that hard to imagine? Wouldn't have thought so.
Currently implemented? You know it isn't.

To be implemented in the next month? Wouldn't presume so, and wouldn't have thought you would either.

There's abundant proof that feedback is considered by the devs and indeed by the boss himself. We don't even have to go through an intermediary but rather get direct feedback from the top. Feedback seems very appreciated and is acknowledged.

But pointing to things as if assuming they are complete when you should, by now, easily be able to extrapolate the intent seems kinda silly.

You may say you shouldn't have to pay for a product with incomplete features, and you don't have to. Our feedback is still taken even if we are not currently subscribed.

You used to say that the combat revamp will fail because the experts of VD and other warring tribes won't be around to test it... well, test server is open to all...
Rather than use that to point to population issues, why not see it as having listened to what you were saying and addressed it promptly?

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Obviously we know thing like cooking and taming are 'coming'...because it has been stated that they arent in yet.

Weapons/Armor/Stuff - I don't recall reading that they devs understood that the difference, in weapons for instance, was purely cosmetic at this time. They may know this, but then again, they may not...they may be looking at the code going, 'wtf are they talking about each one of these should behave completely differently...'. So providing feedback that is not the case, well thats a good thing. Otherwise you have a situation where the devs believe something is working as designed, aand the players understand differently.

Your grass armor example...sure, it shoudl be more of a light armor scouting item blah blah blah...but is it? In a full suit of grass armor I am encumbered relatively the same as wearing bone....without nearly the resistance. So what's the benefit? Is it functioning as intended? Is grass to heavy? is bone too light? I don't know...just calling it as I see it. Devs can use it or ignore it...players can agree with it or refute it.

There are alots of things you can talk about in 'the future'. I'm sure in the future there will be ranged weapons, armor will and weapons will be significant trade offs, we'll have territorial warfare, an economy, all kinds of good stuff...but, this isn't the future. And that stuff doesn't get to a playeable condition by itself.

Assumptions and extrapolations of completeness...I am not making any statements based on assumptions...I am merely commenting on what is. If what is, is known and by design, GREAT...the devs can move along and ignore it, because they know that it's coming. Maybe it spurs some good discussion and ideas that they might care to implement. Maybe its something they thought was working, that isn't, or at least isn't working in the manner they intended.

Obviously you misunderstood my point on the test server...my point was they opened the test server because they wanted the feed back, the critique, and realized that they might not have the paying population to test it appropriately...and free-play is good marketing as a means to get people back on board when/if they are satisified with the progression of the game. And yes...you need pvp players to test pvp components of the game....at least if you want to get them right.

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

Obviously we know thing like cooking and taming are 'coming'...because it has been stated that they arent in yet.

Weapons/Armor/Stuff - I don't recall reading that they devs understood that the difference, in weapons for instance, was purely cosmetic at this time. They may know this, but then again, they may not...they may be looking at the code going, 'wtf are they talking about each one of these should behave completely differently...'. So providing feedback that is not the case, well thats a good thing. Otherwise you have a situation where the devs believe something is working as designed, aand the players understand differently.

Your grass armor example...sure, it shoudl be more of a light armor scouting item blah blah blah...but is it? In a full suit of grass armor I am encumbered relatively the same as wearing bone....without nearly the resistance. So what's the benefit? Is it functioning as intended? Is grass to heavy? is bone too light? I don't know...just calling it as I see it. Devs can use it or ignore it...players can agree with it or refute it.

There are alots of things you can talk about in 'the future'. I'm sure in the future there will be ranged weapons, armor will and weapons will be significant trade offs, we'll have territorial warfare, an economy, all kinds of good stuff...but, this isn't the future. And that stuff doesn't get to a playeable condition by itself.

Assumptions and extrapolations of completeness...I am not making any statements based on assumptions...I am merely commenting on what is. If what is, is known and by design, GREAT...the devs can move along and ignore it, because they know that it's coming. Maybe it spurs some good discussion and ideas that they might care to implement. Maybe its something they thought was working, that isn't, or at least isn't working in the manner they intended.

Obviously you misunderstood my point on the test server...my point was they opened the test server because they wanted the feed back, the critique, and realized that they might not have the paying population to test it appropriately...and free-play is good marketing as a means to get people back on board when/if they are satisified with the progression of the game. And yes...you need pvp players to test pvp components of the game....at least if you want to get them right.

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Right, in any case, my point was that you're underestimating the developers' grasp on the condition of their product and overestimating the value of your perception of the obvious.

That's all. Feedback away.

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Originally Posted by Book

Right, in any case, my point was that you're underestimating the developers' grasp on the condition of their product and overestimating the value of your perception of the obvious.

That's all. Feedback away.

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/shrug
maybe
but i know from experience, that if you stare at something long enough the obvious can become invisible...you know what it should say, what it should do, what it should add up to, and your brain connects the dots and ignores errors, because, well it knows better.

so yes, now that i have your permission, i will continue to dazzle the audience with my grasp of the obvious...be prepared to be amazed.

I agree that we need tighter relationships between gear.

Every armor should:

a. Provide general protection.
b. Have a weakness that is fairly certain to undermine its protection.

Every weapon 'type' should:

a. Provide a range of multiformity ie. There should be big heavy long slow swords that pack a wallop, and small light short fast swords that don't do as much dmg, with a variable range in between. Sword shouldn't be the goto for fast, and axe shouldn't be the goto for slow.
b. Provide it's own specific type of dmg. Differing types of dmg could then be used either effectively of ineffectively against differing types of defenses.

Nix the BotMs. If you want to have all your bases covered, you need to team up.

Clothes: we need comfort turned on. But I think there should be more to clothes than just comfort. Perhaps some kinds of clothes could give you more pockets? Some of them already help you blend in. Maybe some of them could help you do other things as well. I think if I were a tailor I would like to rely on something more than just comfort to drive my business.

I firmly believe every skillset should be a link in the chain of things people need. I want to be relieved that I made allies with a tailor, and relax about things people who can't make clothes so well, still have to worry about.

Food: cooking would be great. I don't know if they just have fish set too high right now because cooking isn't in. But cooking in part being a parent to alchemy, should open up a wide range of possibilities. The ideas for this won't end once it's turned on. Just read my recipe blog.

Skills: Yeah I still don't dig the basketry thing too much. It just seems odd and out of place. But then again, I remember hair dressing (is that still on the table?). All skills need special relationships between one another that provides something substantial.

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

/shrug
maybe
but i know from experience, that if you stare at something long enough the obvious can become invisible...you know what it should say, what it should do, what it should add up to, and your brain connects the dots and ignores errors, because, well it knows better.

so yes, now that i have your permission, i will continue to dazzle the audience with my grasp of the obvious...be prepared to be amazed.

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Well it is "your" thread afterall. Go nuts.

Seems to me they've got a lead test developer and I'd find it very hard to believe the things you mentioned are the result of tunnel vision and oversight... but hey, who knows.
It's a good thing they spelled out that cooking isn't in, or we might have come to the conclusion they didn't click on the icon themselves before releasing the build or were simply unaware having stared at the icon for so very long.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Book

Well it is "your" thread afterall. Go nuts.

Seems to me they've got a lead test developer and I'd find it very hard to believe the things you mentioned are the result of tunnel vision and oversight... but hey, who knows.
It's a good thing they spelled out that cooking isn't in, or we might have come to the conclusion they didn't click on the icon themselves before releasing the build or were simply unaware having stared at the icon for so very long.:rolleyes:

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NEWSFLASH

Taming isn't in yet either...we've got a button for that as well.

just so you know i'm on top of hte obvious shit.

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Originally Posted by Dubanka

NEWSFLASH

Taming isn't in yet either...we've got a button for that as well.

just so you know i'm on top of hte obvious shit.

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So what IS "in"?
- scavenging and crafting, that is all
- crafting makes mostly useless stuff
- scavenging takes no skill, other than to pick something up
- fishing
- building (although buildings have little or no effect)

Things missing:
- farming, herbalism, alchemy
- combat
- items (armor and weapons currently have little or no effect)
- mobs
- quests, missions, or goals of any kind
- land features (no castles, keeps, dungeons, caves, etc)

If this were a Monopoly game, all you could do is roll the die and move around the board. Hotels, housing, money, charging rent, Chance/Community Chest, passing GO, these are all planned for the future.