My thoughts on crafting

I've been playing now for over a year and have the odd alt or two. So I've done a little bit of crafting ;) and have some views about it I would like to share and see what others think. Leveling most crafts up is slow especially from 99 to 100 so I'm not going to talk about that.

TLDR: Don't rush to 100, You get punished for raising some skills, Skill leveling speed needs to be evened out across all skills and Think about not starting your chosen skills at 25

My first thought: Why the rush to 100?

When I first started what I got from listening to chat and asking questions was get to 100. Now I have a completely different view for some but not all skills. What happens when you grind to gain levels is you make better quality stuff and you learn recipes. What also happens, especially in the armor skills, is that you don't learn all the recipes. I have a leather worker locked at 90 because he still doesn't know all the basic recipes and without checking I would be confident enough to say he only knows about 10 complete basic sets. I have an alt leather worker who locked his skill every 10 or so levels and didn't unlock it till he learnt all basic recipes up to the level lock. At 59.98 he knew all basic recipes and can make a set of any type. Same goes for tailoring and bone crafting.

Quality obviously improves with higher skill levels but why on peace do you need supreme quality buildings for example? I haven't yet seen any of my low quality buildings fall down.

Now that I understand more of how combat works I have an alt hunter who takes mule deer in starter clothes and a moderate quality shovel. Sure you take less damage with top quality armor and do more damage with top quality weapons but (on peace) you don't need them. Plus play long enough and you will get to 100 I just don't see the need to rush there - on peace.

Don't race to level your skills take your time play and enjoy the game and learn the recipes.

My second thought: Why does the game punish you for leveling your skills?

Make an alt skill them for resources or foraging start them at 25 and go pick rock/grass. Your starter stacks will be around 15 levels higher than your skill level. Around skill levels in the 80's it begins to even out but hit the 90's and now your stacks are up to 7 levels lower than your skill level, average is around 5 levels lower and that is consistent. By the time you're over 98 you've picked around 20,000 rocks but you aren't skilled enough to pick rocks at your level? So the more skilled I get the lower the quality of my rocks/grass relative to my skill level. Does not make sense me.

My third thought: Why do some skills level faster than greased lightning and others move slower than glaciers?

I assume there is a reason for this that I don't know. It just seems to me skills should level at a rate somewhere between the two. It has never made sense to me why skills like farming and cooking level in the blink of an eye and something like logging requires the deforestation of a whole zone to level up 1.0. Ok a slight exaggeration but you really do almost have to deforest large tracts to level logging. Sure you can pick rocks and grind masonry and use those green points but why should/is this be the case?

Let's just not talk about forestry or foraging.

My final thought: Think about not starting out at 25 in your chosen skill!!

I have an architect just shy of 100 who knows 167/267 schemes and only a one storage building not learnt from a scavved scheme. I have another who is 75ish who still only knows 3 normal posts and one base post. Basic posts are low level and oh so valuable if you want to grind or build a fence on sloping ground. He was close to 60 before he learnt his third normal post. Both these guys started out at 25.

My third architect didn't start out as one, isn't specced as one and started at level 5. At around skill level 40 -50 he knew all the basic posts a lot of (from memory I think at least 3 or 4) storage buildings and way more useful stuff than either of my other two. Remember though he has had an extra 20 levels of building/grinding stuff than the other two because he didn't start at 25.

Maybe it was dumb luck or maybe just maybe it's because he has had an extra 20 levels of grinding than the other two.

Anyway those are most of my thoughts on crafting. My apologies for it's length but if you didn't stop at the TLDR then thanks for taking the time to read it all.

Good post....

Excellent post!

I have to say not a good post but an uniformed one. sorry

Why rush to 100 ?

Well there is no rushing in this game anyhow, but to craft the best quality
possible you need to be level 100
Quality on weps and armor is prime - the higher the better.

You can only achieve this skill at 100, with the best mats and stats.

Building quality - only needed for Commissarys to improve the buff.




BTW you still inspire at 100 skill level so no need to lock a skill off
and inspiring a scheme is RNG but you can trade or scav for ones you really want

Also there are more schemes in a craft then you can learn
You cant learn them all, you have to chose
thats why there is the UNLEARN button
this is supposed to encourage trading among players

For your leather skill, you need to look through the whole list and delete some sets you dont want
all 3 versions, basic, artisan and master. and that will free up space to learn all 3 versions of sets you do want, theres over a 1000 leather schemes, maybe 1300+
your cap will probably be around 1000 or 1100 if you increase your leather stats (str/per)

increasing skill level also increase the scheme cap max for that craft


The developer never intended for 1 player to learn it all he wants players specialize and TRADE and work together. This only works when they are lots of players
But one player can level all the skills, given enough time.
(you still cant learn all the schemes)


Skills level faster
This is is due to the number of skills in a group and to do with skill points in a pool

Hence cooking and farming level faster then the 9 crafts in the craft grp

because all players need to cook right ? so no punishment as you call it there.


Gathering Quality eg Grass Rocks etc

This is based on a 20 point range from your skill level but it is Skewed up or down by the relevant stats for that skill
Eg skill level 50, youll pull grass anywhere between 40 and 60 quality depending on your stats
low grass stats and the range will not be as high eg 39 to 59 etc
as a guide the range is always 20, 10 either side of your skill level - not 15 as you said
to ensure in this example at level 50, to get 40 to 60 quality
you grass stats need to be high. eg 90s+

Once you reach 100 skill, 100 in stats, your quality range is 90 to 100 so your average pull is 95.
you;ll never pull less then 90

thats the reward for all that hard work in leveling skills and stats.

That applies to all the gathering skills, scav, rock, grass, etc etc

TLDR This is my reply and rebuttal to Chojinuk. I disagree with a lot of what he said and put my reasons below. You can move on now or read my short story.

I would have to say not uninformed just not in line with the group think.

Oops no rushing you are absolutely right yet the "constant" get to 100 for quality talk has some people doing nothing but grinding to get to 100. I call that rushing because they're not playing the game they're "rushing" to get to 100.

I never said the quality wasn't better at higher skill levels. What I'm daring to do is to question the need for supreme quality everything. On peace remember all this is about peace. How long do you want your food to last? A moderate quality commissary will keep food for quite some time. You can still die to a bear in supreme master quality bone armor just like you can in your starter outfit. It just takes longer with better quality armor.

I know you still inspire after reaching 100 and I know you can't learn every scheme but I never said you could. You can learn (for example) every basic leather working scheme and by locking your skill before you reach 60. Why 60 because then you start learning artisan schemes and anecdotally (and from my personal observations) you will learn more artisan schemes after 60 than you will basic schemes. Then you start learning master schemes and guess what type of schemes you learn more of?

Yes crafting is rng but if you lock your skill you are making that rng work for you not against you. At level 25 there are 256 LW schemes and at 35, 347. If you start at 25 by the time you reach 35 you more than likely won't even know half the schemes and it just gets worse after that.

Being rng if I unlearn a scheme there is just as much chance that I will learn it again as there is that I will learn a different one which is just the same chance that I will learn one I don't want. So unlearning ones I don't want is absolutely no guarantee that I will learn the ones I want.

I knew there was a reason for the differing rates that skills level but didn't know what is was. Thank you for explaining it to me but it still makes no sense to me. Why is it ok to deforest a whole area to go up 1.0 (exaggeration remember) but takes a lot less fish to get a level in cooking. As you said you're not expected to learn everything but this guy is just picking rocks nothing else and is still penalized. All players need to make stuff out of wood or stone or grass as well and you can still cook something at level 5 you just burn more and it has lower stats.

I beg to differ on your not 15 as I have had stacks of 10 and 20 rocks 15 levels higher than my level. I have had stacks of 40 13 levels higher. My rock picker was made as a rock picker, per and fort started at 90 he eats per food so if anything his 20 point range should be skewed up but in the 90's it isn't. At 98.something I'm getting consistent stacks at 93, some at 94 and 92 but the majority are 93. That means after speccing into rocks, picking 20,000+ and eating primary stat increasing food I still can't manage to average at my level. I'm being penalized. It doesn't matter what the system is I'm being penalized for getting my rock picking up close to the max and will continue to be penalized when I finally pick another 20k rocks to get to 100. When I do reach 100 my reward for spending "years" of my in game life rock picking is to get stacks at 95. Yayyy.

Ravelli here to impart some wisdom.

Firstly, the OP is wise in that grinding, specially to reach 100 skill, is not fun and may not be as productive as many think. I've seen too many players burn out and quit after reaching 100 in one skill. Unlike many games, maxed skill does not make you 133t. There is little difference between the results of a skill in the mid-90's and a maxed skill, but there is a lot of grinding time involved.

Armor does not provide better damage mitigation as quality goes up, but better quality does provide better stats. Better stats can help crafters on Peace as well as hunter on War. Adept and Master armor generally will have higher stats provided you have the skills to get materials with good power.

It would be nice if Adept and Master armor gave higher mitigation (say +25% and +50% greater than the basic quality) and had a skill requirement to wear (Say 75 foraging or basketry skill to wear Adept grass armor, 90 leather crafting or a combat skill at 90). That would give an incentive and reward for leveling up.

Locking a skill at a low level is not a wise choice if you eventually want that skill to be high. You will get more inspirations from using higher level skills. E.g. you will get many more inspirations from grinding leather fringe (80 skill) than leather straps (5 skill). Straps will actually give more experience since they use 2 mats and two tools, vs one mat and one tool, but many fewer inspirations.

Unlearning schemes you don't want or need will give you a higher chance of an inspire for one you really want. Yes you will have to unlearn some multiple times, but it is worth it.

Finally, to get the schemes you really want you need to worship the God of the RNG. Unfortunately, the only sacrifices I've found that she really likes is the time involved in a bit of grinding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thurgond

Ravelli here to impart some wisdom.

Locking a skill at a low level is not a wise choice if you eventually want that skill to be high. You will get more inspirations from using higher level skills. E.g. you will get many more inspirations from grinding leather fringe (80 skill) than leather straps (5 skill). Straps will actually give more experience since they use 2 mats and two tools, vs one mat and one tool, but many fewer inspirations.

Finally, to get the schemes you really want you need to worship the God of the RNG. Unfortunately, the only sacrifices I've found that she really likes is the time involved in a bit of grinding.

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Just quoted two parts of your post. The first quote I agree with but with two caveats.

I don't keep my skill locked once I know all the basic schemes. and

(nothing scientific here) From my observations of my 3 leather workers in various stages of the grind and watching my wife's leather worker at 100 the higher your skill the more prevalent the higher level schemes that you inspire. After all you now can inspire all artisan and a lot of master schemes for known schemes.

As for the second quote all I can say is she is a demanding god.

I said a RANGE of 20, skewed up or down by stats, so having 90 in both for/per and your range is going to be 20 above your skill.

of course i am referring to single pulls, once you merge them into a stack, its just going to be the average of your pull range.

When i say skewed up or down, I am referring to the quality range so low stats
and with skill 50 and range could be 40q to 60q.
with 50 skill and good stats it could be a range of 45q to 65q, or 50q to 70q

also stats affect the frequency, lets say your range is 20 to 40, with low stats you will see lots of 20s and mid 30s and very few 40s, with high stats its the other way, lots of high 30s and very few low 20s

You said it yourself you was seeing 15 levels above your skill and that ties in with the Range I was talking about.

if you only ever pull into 50 stacks, then all you will see is your average, you wont see what range you are pulling but you can work it out based on the 20 range.

for example if your stacks are all 50q then your range is 40 to 60, and if you pull in single pulls you will see very few 40s and very few 60s but lots of ones at 45 to 55. its like a sine wave. very few at either end of the scale but lots in the middle, but again even this sine wave of frequency is skewed by stats so good stats and you will pull more higher quality (single pulls)
then lower ones.



I dont know why you say you dont need good armor or weapons on peace.

You may not realise that mutants have armor and normal animals do not, and while starter gear may help you against normal mule deers of low hp those starter weapons wont do much against 1000 hp mutant bear. so clearly they are needed on Peace.

a starter shovel may hit a normal deer for 15 dmg but against a mutant u might see 5 or 7 dmg or even just 2 dmg.

I agree with what you said chojinuk. However all that just reinforces my point that we are punished for getting our skill level up to max.

Low skill level but high stats = consistently higher than skill level stacks
High skill level with high stats = consistently lower than skill level stacks

It is somewhere around level 90 (+ or - a level or two) where this dynamic changes.

It doesn't matter what the system is because it is that system that punishes you. Don't get me wrong I love the game. All I'm doing is pointing this out.

You don't actually need to hunt mutants. They give you the same stuff that normal animals give and I'm not real sure but I believe the same amount of the same stuff. I know that the power comes into it but afaik (and I could be wrong) that is the only real difference. So basically you can happily hunt the normal animals and get all the same stuff. It's a challenge to hunt a mule deer in starter gear just as it's a challenge to hunt a shadow bear in master gear.

Don't get me wrong I like and use good quality armor and weapons because they definitely help. With my new guys once I can make HQ or VHQ sets of a style I like (for each individual character) I will equip them with it. What I'm saying is you can get along just fine without it.

As thurgond said we see people leave because they burn out getting one or two skills to 100 as fast as they can. The get to 100 is the holy grail that is hung out there and I've seen people just grind away to get there on one, two or more skills and what for?

We are missing the point. There is a game to play here and you could probably spend years actually playing it and not get a skill up to 100. Sure it's nice to get to 25 in basketry and tools to get a storage bin and saw but after that just play. You will need to grind some still but also you will need to make things and skill levels will rise and you are actually making things for a reason not just to destroy. Playing the game might just make the grind less of a grind.

The power from animal MATs is tied to age and gender, doesn't matter if it's a hamster or a plateback, MAX HP males will always give power 1.0, while MAX HP females will give power 0.8.

It's the stats boost you get from MATs that is important to many people, regular animals give a stat boost of 0.75, but to get a boost of 1.0 you need to kill mutants, and to get the best MATs for power and stat boost you are looking at killing MAX HP male mutants.

Don't get me wrong power 1.0 and 0.75 stat boost MATs make great armour, it's just not good enough for a lot of people.

As for missing the point, I think you are too, playing an MMO for "fun" means different things to many people, for some that means becoming the best in game, for some others it's just messing about without getting too serious.

Me I'm serious enough to want good gear, but not serious enough to put in the work to get the best gear, but I also like "messing" about.

I've "raided" more dead tribes than I care to remember, so I've gotten a lot of very good gear over the years, not the best gear but usually better than my "Jack of all Trades" can make, I do have one set of high end Master armour which was a thank you because of some of my "messing about":p.

The best part of this entire thread to me is the information in it about how they system works. Now (thanks Bejaymac) I understand more about the power/stat relationship to animals.

When I started playing over a year ago the overwhelming feeling I got from global chat was to get to 100. Nothing else mattered as much as getting skills to 100. It wasn't said exactly like that but that was the message. Over the 15 or so months I've played I've come to realize you don't need to get skills to 100. (depending on your play-style) I should perhaps add that this was how the message was perceived by me. It may well have not been perceived the same way by anyone else.

This game has a lot to offer whether you're a full time, part time or an only when necessary grinder. The message we give out on global needs to be more balanced. I personally believe it isn't as "hardcore" get to 100 as it used to be but I also believe it isn't balanced - yet.