No totem drops on abandoned tribe areas for 30 days
issueid=2685 05-19-2020 10:58 PM
Static
No totem drops on abandoned tribe areas for 30 days

I understand the "war camp" idea is way too much work, but it highlights alot of core issues.

I feel alot of these same core issues that I tried to address with the "war camp" idea could easily and more simply be addressed by just simply making it so nobody can drop a totem on a abandoned tribe land for 30 days after their totem disappears.

Some of the issues it would solve:

~People without alts being at huge disadvantage due to time required to move resources, while someone with a alt can claim it all instantly for zero time/effort/combat.

~First come first serve claim. A dozen people could be aware of when the totem is going to drop but the first person to show up and drop a totem will be the one to claim it all without effort.

~No conflicts or combat over resources. Since its first come first serve, this means that anyone else can come along after, see that a new totem is there and since they are unable to gain any resources or even kill the person who claimed it, they have no other option but to leave in disappointment.... I don't think the game should be disappointing like this in what COULD be one of the most exciting parts of the game.

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Basically this would force everybody to invest the time to gain as much resources as they could, or kill anyone trying to take the resources, instead of instant claiming all of them in 1 sec.

Instead of it being something easy to do, this now becomes something harder to do. Instead of something that only takes 1 sec to drop a totem, it takes alot more time to sort through, cart up, or transport resources away... this opens up all kinds of cool gameplay mechanics that work WITH the player death/loot system like bandits or tracking someone who you know has a long way to go before they get those resource carts back to their tribe.

This opens up ALOT of cool gameplay that doesn't exist right now when someone can just drop a totem from a alt, claim it all, wall it off and bring their main to farm in safty, or pack it up, sort through it in safty.

Its a pvp server, but atm theres nothing to fight over, no contested areas, no reason to really do combat since alot of people don't travel for no reason outside of hunting, most folks stay in their home or area so fighting them outside of their homes is often not a solution.... but this would give people a reason to go somewhere and fight over the resources.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2685
Issue Type Feature
Project Suggestions
Category Unknown
Status Acknowledged
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version Unknown
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 0
Votes against this feature 1
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05-19-2020 11:06 PM
Visitor
Combat/conflict over resources is what happens in the mass majority of games, there needs to be something that the player wants that comes up, that they will want to prevent another player from getting so they can have it for themselves, this causes a conflict, conflicts cause combat or causes people to be sneaky.

So by letting someone walk up and claim everything without a fight, its removing a core part of pvp gameplay; people fighting over resources.

I mean we have hide skill, but no reason to sneak around... unless there was a tribe you wanted resources from but didnt want to alert the guy loading his cart thats too strong for you to kill.. this would be a more fun mechanic than showing up to find someone claimed everything with a totem.. there would be a reason to come back and try to get more resources, instead of leaving and hermiting back in your house cuz theres nothing you can do if they totem drop.

Like I think we should be supporting roaming more, more reasons to roam.. a large tribe going abandon like say "elite" would take people a long time to raid, so this would be a continuous thing to do, till the next tribe expires.... instead of the way it is atm, first person shows up and totem drops gets everything, no reason for anyone to come back ever... again by prevnting totem drops 30 days it gives everybody a reason to come back as long as theres resources.

05-19-2020 11:21 PM
Visitor
Another problem with how things are currently....

If ONE player gets the resources from a ENTIRE tribe it can do one of a few different things:

1) Become really strong really quick tipping balance quicker than would be otherwise due to having free grinds

2) Cause people to feel they have "everything" and are thus finished with the game with no real reason to play due to having so much stuff and not needing to go out and play the game to get more resources.


The last part of it is this; if nobody can claim all the resources at once than those resources get spread out across more players and more evenly/fairly spreads out the stat gain to effort ratio since you would only gain as much resources to stat grind as you put in effort for... this is a big chance from just simply needing a alt and totem dropping a whole area to get a ton of free resource with no effort..

My suggestion here makes it so you get as much reward as you put in effort, instead of one person getting a easy/effortless huge boost in resources for stat grind, they would only be able to take as much as they have time to grab or fight other people off to take.

05-20-2020 12:09 AM
Xsyon Citizen
I am sorry but want to ask to make sure I understand this correctly (maybe PVP differs heavily from PVE?)

A large tribe with lets say 50 alts in it goes abandoned. I go there with one alt only and place a totem. Doing so on PVP I "lock out" all other players of the whole area the 50 alts had before?

When I do that on PVE, my 1-alt-totem covers only a little part of the tribe, leaving all the other resources open to be looted by everyone else. This is my experience with the large tribe called Oasis on PVE.

05-20-2020 01:39 AM
Visitor
Quote Originally Posted by Wyry
I am sorry but want to ask to make sure I understand this correctly (maybe PVP differs heavily from PVE?)

A large tribe with lets say 50 alts in it goes abandoned. I go there with one alt only and place a totem. Doing so on PVP I "lock out" all other players of the whole area the 50 alts had before?

When I do that on PVE, my 1-alt-totem covers only a little part of the tribe, leaving all the other resources open to be looted by everyone else. This is my experience with the large tribe called Oasis on PVE.
Whats to stop you from using even say 5 alts and dropping a totem on each area that has resources?

I mean again, you have 50 alts, you could totem drop the entire area if you wanted... this isn't good.

05-20-2020 01:42 AM
Visitor
I mean even with a large 50 person tribe, folks are going to keep their resources in their area.... whats to stop you from totem dropping every spot that had anything of value with a alt?

What about solo tribes? What if the tribe is only big enough for one alt? One person gets it all than without any fight or needing to defend it.

05-20-2020 01:46 AM
Visitor
I'm not saying one alt can cover 50 person tribe.. obviously it cannot..

I'm saying that a 50 person tribe would take a LONG time to raid without ANY totem dropping.

Obviously people can drop single tribes ontop of any area that has materials/resources, you don't need to take over the whole 50 person tribe area cuz most times the resources are focused in limited areas for storage, very rarely would you need to take over the entire 50 man tribe...

Babycakes tribe on pvp, pheonix something, is basically just a baron dirt pile, its cool its all the same level I guess but theres next to nothing there, its large yes, but baron, if it went abandon you could most likely cover all the resources with a couple alts despite the entire tribe being max from what I can see.

Again you wouldn't need to take over the whole thing to drop one alt totem on the key locations with items, preventing anyone else from getting it.. I think this is bad gameplay for pvp.... there needs to be resources to fight over and by letting someone totem drop it all it removes the fight cuz they cant die on their tribe grounds.

05-20-2020 06:23 AM
Xsyon Citizen
Thank you very much for clarification :)

05-24-2020 12:41 AM
To clarify: When you mean 'resources' do you mean resources gained by dismantling buildings? Or abandoned carts? Or baskets stored in buildings? All of these or some of these specifically?

05-25-2020 12:56 AM
Visitor
Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon
To clarify: When you mean 'resources' do you mean resources gained by dismantling buildings? Or abandoned carts? Or baskets stored in buildings? All of these or some of these specifically?
"resources" could be anything from a building (teepee or chief tent for example) that you could open the locked bins of and take whatever was inside, this could be everything from armor, weapons, tools, money, even materials for grinding.

Quite often abandond tribes will have alot of materials for grinding, they could be in carts, they could be locked in buildings, but almost always there is a large amount of materials for grinding. Other things are a bonus, but half the game is finding materials, so naturally people horde them.

Like for example the tribe me and sark where fighting over had at least 6 bins full of bones and thats after I organized them by type and auto stacked them... so that was "alot" of grind in "just" the bones I raided from that tribe alone.

That same tribe had a large amount of clothe as well that I used to grind my dex up, a fair amount of stat gain that was technically "free" cuz I didn't have to go out and spend the time to gain the resources, I just needed to organize them and get it back to my tribe.

The point I'm making is that this is a fair amount of "free" stats in materials, there honestly should have been a battle over this instead of someone being able to drop a totem to take it all. If someone takes the physical time to look through the bins/buildings ect to look for things useful or sit there and grind materials, they should NOT be protected under a totem. They should be "at risk" to having someone else, who equally wants those resources, coming up and killing them to take them OR lets people use hide to get around someone stronger than you to give you multiple options to get the resources. You could even gang up on someone by having numbers in a tribe. Theres options, gameplay, people thinking or how to get the things they want, raiding, organized pvp, this is all good things.

If someone wants to spend hours somewhere grinding materials, they should do so in the understanding that anyone could come along at any time. Free stats (the core of any pvp game) with the risk if someone shows up while your raiding.

If someone wants to spend the hours loading a cart up with stuff and than running the cart back to their tribe, they should do so in the understanding that anyone could come along at any time while they where loading the materials, or anytime while they are running home, opening up the option for bandits to stalk someone with a heavy cart, since their energy would be low often and thus, giving you an advantage if you attacked them with low energy while your high.

The point here is you should have a risk to reward ratio. Right now theres no risk, just all rewards go to the first person to show up... this isn't very fun for people who show up after, is unbalanced since one person is getting the biggest boost without any way of contesting it and shuts down all player interactions and gameplay that could be created around these situations.

With the risk to reward ratio being there, this would encourage player interactions that are sorely missing atm, encourage players to find ways to get as much resources as they can instead of "Easy button" grabbing it all than afking it would have to be done asap, create fun gameplay possibilities that are not possible atm cuz you could only get as much materials or resources as you would put time into.

Thats the main core of what the issues are;

the first is; a totem takes 2 secs to drop and not everyone has a alt to do it. Where as if you can't drop a totem for 30 days, its instead forcing the players to get as much resources/materials as they can before someone else does. This puts a level of urgency in players to play more to get more resources, the more effort and time they put in, the more they are rewarded with more resources/materials from the raid.

the second is; players on pvp want to be able to raid. By letting someone drop a totem down and take everything removes the ability to raid from the game. Pvp players want to be able to use their strength, or numbers, or stealth, or wits, or smooth talking to be able to get the resources they want, by letting someone drop a totem drop it removes any of these types of game play from happening, cuz theres no reason for them to use any of them for gaining materials/resources in any other way outside of raiding abandoned tribes... so this one situation with the highest rewards should be a time+effort=reward to feel fair... but beyond that is also forcing players to interact with each other in half dozen or more ways to get what they can out of it before its gone.

For example if industreal strength or elite ever goes abandoned it would be a huge shame to watch someone with 5 alts totem drop all the key spots.... cuz the amount of resources those two tribes would have would be "insane" enough to easily 5-100 skills or/and large stat gains. To give this kind of a player boost without any fight or any battle or any way of contesting it, is extremely unbalanced and feels bad on a pvp server where you can't really use pvp to do anything... This would open up pvp "hotspots" since now everybody who is paying attention to that spot can try their tactics to get the resources/materials they want, instead of being locked out by the first person.

05-25-2020 12:58 AM
Visitor
Some other ideas may be X day wait based upon members of tribe.. so something like a 1-5 tribe would be 30 days while tribes with 5-25-50-80 ect increase how long the area is protected from totems, since a larger tribe like IS or elite should have a longer protection timer imo than something like a single tribe.

05-25-2020 04:51 AM
I'm a bit confused now.

Currently the totem goes through several phases.

Neglected - nothing special in this phase. It's just to indicate that the tribe members have been away for a while
Deserted - non tribe members can take bins, logs, and bundles on the ground.
Abandoned - non tribe members can loot buildings and abandoned carts
Totem Removal - with the totem gone, buildings can now be dismantled

All of the items stored in bins in tents should be accessible during the abandoned phase. This phase lasts for 15 real days while the tribe's totem is still up.

Is this phase not working correctly? I set several tribes to go into the abandoned phase on the Test Server tonight and everything worked as intended. Carts could be snatched and tents could be looted while the tribe land itself was still up, so nobody would be able to place a totem on tribe land.

05-25-2020 11:44 AM
Visitor
I guess the part that isn't working is that while the totem is up the carts can go upwards of 3,000+ days afk

Far as I'm aware, I was unable to claim any carts while the "abandoned" was up cuz the carts themselves don't become abandoned till the totem drops.

To say this another way, the carts are protected on tribe lands from becoming abandoned so they are protected till "totem removal" than they become abandoned for real.

05-25-2020 11:46 AM
Visitor
Another thing is often times folks may not know the tribe went afk till they went to look, this could be beyond the abandoned phase too.

The tribe me and sark where fighting over was already beyond the totem removed stage, it seemed like me coming across it triggered him noticing it at as well cuz I was already caged in a box with my carts by the next morning where I logged out due to patch updates n server going down.

05-25-2020 12:45 PM
So basically if carts became unprotected at the 'abandoned' phase that would solve most of this issue, correct?

At that point the only thing players would wait for a totem to drop is to dismantle buildings.

05-25-2020 03:43 PM
Visitor
I just feel like that window isn't long enough, between abandoned and totem removal is the right amount of time for a tribe being afk, making this longer makes it so people have a longer chance to come back and refresh their tribes, I don't think this is a good change.

Maybe the change should be that you can't totem drop a area till the buildings are destructed?

Or that you can't totem drop someones carts, this could prevent it too if someone was there with a cart already raiding.

The point I'm making is that sark didn't realize the tribe had the totem dropped till I opened the tribe and released all the zombies.

And I didn't realize the tribe was there till I looked around the area and found it.... The point I'm making is that this was well beyond the totem removal date.

Yet the problem remains, someone can claim the entire area with a totem drop, even if someone else is already raiding there or has carts there.

05-25-2020 03:50 PM
Visitor
So the core issues here are

1) someone can totem drop the entire area if its a single tribe or all resources in a area if its not. This claims it all for themselves with no fight or effort on their part.

2) no effort to claim big effort worth of stat gain. Totem dropping makes it so you dont gotta rush to organize or move the materials cuz you have forever to do whatever you want cuz your unkillable on your tribe lands.

3) there is no risk to reward ratio. This means after you drop a totem the risk is gone, you have everything, you cant be killed and your safe to afk. when instead this should be something your watching your back over in case someone else shows up, or fighting someone else over it.

4) there is no time invested to reward ratio. This means you drop a totem and you have all the time in the world, someone else could show up and nothing will happen cuz you cannot be killed, they cannot take anything and you have won before anything even started

5) its preventing player interactions by making players give up on all the resources/materials when they see someone else totem dropped it already and prevented you from accessing any of it.


And thats just the legitimate things, not talking about exploits.... this would also solve the exploit of totem dropping peoples carts or people themselves while they are mid raid... again this opens up great gameplay where someone can stalk a area and wait for someone to log back on so they can kill them in a fair fight cuz both of them can be killed... while droping a totem makes it so they are unkillable, caging makes it so you starve to death in a box.. this is extremely unfun gameplay and removes meaningful player interactions that would drive players to play the game.

05-25-2020 03:51 PM
Visitor
Since you need to totem drop a area anyways to prevent zombies from respawning, a solution may be that you can't totem drop a area with buildings, forcing people to deconstruct the buildings in order to totem drop and stop the zombies from spawning.

This would also prevent exploit abuse since nobody could claim a raid area someone else was in till the buildings and carts are gone.

05-25-2020 06:53 PM
Currently the Abandoned phase lasts 15 real time days.

If carts become abandoned at this time then:

Players would have 30 days to loot any ground objects (bins on the ground, logs, bundles)
Players would have 15 days to take carts.
Players would have 15 days to loot bins from buildings (tents).

That's not enough time to fight over the majority of desirable loot?

The only thing they would not be able to do is dismantle buildings and get scrap materials from them. I'm not going to force players to completely dismantle a tribe in order to place a totem. Allowing players to be able to claim the 'ruins' of a tribe is intentional.

One thing I am open to do is removing safe zones on the War Server. This is up to what players want. The last time I considered this, more players wanted to keep the safe zones than remove them.

05-25-2020 11:00 PM
Visitor
Sure if everybody is able to keep track of the totem and/or know exactly when its going to drop than its enough time, problem is you don't always know how long due to not having access to the totem due to walls/gates

But for situations like this where I had no idea about it till I showed up and sark had no idea about it till I released all the zombies.

I agree that someone taking over the ruins of another tribe is a good feature, I was just throwing ideas around for alternative ways to find a solution.

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The problem with removing safe zones from all tribes is that someone like sark could run into anyones camp and kill them and while that could be fun gameplay, it would be unfun if he was able to loot.

What if instead of being unable to kill them, maybe make them unable to be looted, this way if your on your own tribe lands you cannot be looted, but you could be killed. Being looted is the biggest problem with people killing someone on their tribe lands in my opinion.

This could open up fun gameplay like if you find someone crafting in a area they just raided it could open up the ability to interupt their crafting....... However the problem of fighting over resources..... I feel like it doesn't address this.

While making tribe lands unlootable unstead of unkillable would be a good start... what about having it so that if you totem drop the ruins of another tribe that all of the buildings/bins are still accessable to people outside of that tribe for x amount of time?

Cuz the "gameplay concept" of players fighting over resources should be focused on, its what alot of people think of when they see the ruins of fallen tribes.

06-09-2020 07:44 PM
Xsyon Citizen
Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon
Currently the Abandoned phase lasts 15 real time days.

If carts become abandoned at this time then:

Players would have 30 days to loot any ground objects (bins on the ground, logs, bundles)
Players would have 15 days to take carts.
Players would have 15 days to loot bins from buildings (tents).

That's not enough time to fight over the majority of desirable loot?

The only thing they would not be able to do is dismantle buildings and get scrap materials from them. I'm not going to force players to completely dismantle a tribe in order to place a totem. Allowing players to be able to claim the 'ruins' of a tribe is intentional.

One thing I am open to do is removing safe zones on the War Server. This is up to what players want. The last time I considered this, more players wanted to keep the safe zones than remove them.

I feel like totems and carts and resources of totems going up for abandoned is perfectly fine.

I also do not feel you should remove the protection (PVP server only of course) as newer PVPers would have a much much harder time, as they can not get walls up etc to protect themselves.
If you were to do this, I think you would a safe area for them to drop totems so that they can build up resources etc, so they can move to a PVP area.
But this would be a lot of work for little extra reward I expect.

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