06/04/2020 - Feedback Request - Creature Balance

[Static]

Was weapon damage ACTUALLY changed?

Or are you talking about reduced additional damage due to lack of 180% charged hit?

Cuz those are two VERY different things.

I'd say we do MORE damage now than we did before cuz theres no charge bar, meaning you can get 2-3 hits off in the same time as it took you to do a charged attack. Even 2 attacks in the same time as 1 charged attack is 150% dmg, pretty dang close to 1 charged attack.

What I'm saying here is, unless I'm wrong, the base weapon damage and the entire calculation for it has not changed at all aside of removing 180% dmg from charged, lowering to 100% and adding 75% dmg to fastest hit... this is not changing weapon values or damage at all, its ONLY added damage to fast attacks from 1% to 75% and charged from 180% to 100% and I AGREE with these changes and jordi's reasoning, most new players die to hamsters or simple creatures due to 1% dmg with fastest attack no charge, by changing things so it does 75% dmg its solving this problem of new players dying to anything cuz they cant figure combat out, I get its not a YOU problem, but it IS a wide spread problem that this addresses and fixes.

Again, two hits at 75% is faster than 1 charged hit, so I don't see how we're doing any less DPS, just less charged hit that is honestly really slow.

The game shouldn't be balanced over single hits, it should be balanced for dps, the amount of time it takes you to produce that damage, not flat simple numbers of a single hit cuz a shovel will win every single time that way, where as a knife is faster or a axe is faster, the dsp of them should all be around the same imo, NOT the single hits of them.

[MrDDT]

I'd rather see a rat with low damage and 50hp than a rat with decent damage that you can 1 hit.

How does a player learn anything from 1 hitting a rat or hamster? Spoiler; they don't.

You need low end creatures (rats, hamsters, rabbits) to be as strong to new players as a deer or bear is to endgame players.

This means 1hits just isn't a good idea, theres no combat to be had if you just run up and 1hit.

If a new player with a 25q shovel is doing around 10 dmg per hit with low skill than I really don't think 50hp's is too much.

But that does bring up a interesting subject; it shouldn't be balanced only by hps, it should also be balanced verse the expected skill level of the play who should be fighting it.

As in, the hamster should prob be balanced the weakest, while a rat a lil stronger, maybe a squirrel being a lil stronger than that and a rabbit a lil stronger than that. So you could aim the hamster and rat at brand new players with 25q weapon and 5 skill, while you could argue that a rabbit for example could be more balanced towards 25 skill and 40q weapon just to throw out some random numbers.

I totally understand not everybody is going to have endgame equipment or their skills maxed, but no creatures should be balanced for that anyways aside of mutants and bears imo, those are the only creatures that should be balanced for people like you me and sark... everything else should be balanced for who is expected to fight that creature, meaning rat would be lowest skill and weapon, while bear or mutants would be expecting you have the highest end equipment.

You saying about "low end creatures" being strong to new players, goes against what Xsyon has outlined in this post. I would suggest read the top post by Xsyon then make suggestions to make it line up to what he wants.

There is nothing wrong with a few being 1 hit, then making it harder as they go up. Hamsters should have no issues being 1 hit as babies. Remember babies have like 1/8th the HP as an adult. So if you make baby hamsters have 50HP, you would currently (I know this can be balanced) be making daddy hamsters with 200HP. Which is 2x more than 90% of the players.

Also do not forget that players want to start off easy, to learn the game. They also would like to be able to get resources.
Players start with Q25 weapons however, when they goto craft a weapon they are much lower QL starting.

You are also listing the highest damage weapon in the game a shovel. Most players do not start or have a shovel starting out.

Don't forget that Xsyon stated himself he also wants some animals (Mutants) to be a group combat. So even you or Sark should not be soloing Legendary Mutants.

I agree with you on the last part, that you need to balance those things based on VETs with high/perfect skill, with highQL armor/weapons.

Sadly I doubt this will happen as I could solo Legendary Shadowbears before the patch. Now I can solo them without even getting 1/2 HP with non max weapons and naked.

Instead of going case by case and saying "I personally feel this is too strong or too weak in compairson to my character" I am trying to get to a core root way of sorting out the balance so its balanced to EVERYBODY not just the people who fought that particular creature and gave a opinion, cuz those opinions will differ depending on the stats of your character.

Thats why I'm saying there needs to be a standard here and attempting to come up with one.

Lets be honest here, if you and me and both 1hit a 50hp rat or hamster, how is this a problem?

I mean you think people should be able to 1hit a hamster or rat, but the reality is we can both do it even with my suggestion.

The only people who wouldn't be able to 1hit them is NEW players and thats a GOOD THING, cuz they would need to fight it in combat instead of just walking up and getting a effortless kill that will teach them nothing and make them disappointed in combat.


Lets be honest here, if you and me and both 1hit a 50hp rat or hamster, how is this a problem?

I mean you think people should be able to 1hit a hamster or rat, but the reality is we can both do it even with my suggestion.

The only people who wouldn't be able to 1hit them is NEW players and thats a GOOD THING, cuz they would need to fight it in combat instead of just walking up and getting a effortless kill that will teach them nothing and make them disappointed in combat.

I know you might think I look at it based on my toon. I look at the whole picture. As I stated here before and currently in view of a new player.
He already set the standard. He said what he wants.

-------------------------------------------------

- Small creatures should be easy to kill, even for low skilled new players.

- The toughest small creatures (adult, high power) may be a challenge for a newbie or medium skilled player but still easy for a high skilled veteran player.

- Large regular creatures should be difficult but manageable to kill solo by a high skilled veteran player. Full legendary adult bears may require two or more tough players to kill.

- Mutants of all ages should be a challenge and require a group of medium skilled players. Young mutants would be as strong as an adult bear with at least medium combat power.

- Old age and legendary mutants should be difficult and require a group of veteran players to kill.

-------------------------------------------------

I am talking about a new player, and I stated as much.

Again there are good reasons why a new player should be able to 1 shot some (very few) mobs. Resources and Learning the game. You don't want a baby rabbit taking 5 hits to kill, not even for a new player.
They end up having to chase it down, or whatever. It also makes no sense.
There is nothing saying that a normal rabbit can't be 2 hits. But give something to a new player to be able to kill. Remember some of them have a hard time figuring out how to even use combat mode to start with.

@Static I would look closely at what Xsyon is saying and balance it for that. He has given a clear outline. I believe this outline is good.





Sadly I also believe we will not see "Legendary Mutants" likely so hard that they take a group of vets to kill. I just don't see that. I mean based on the current combat, you would need to make them 5k+ HP to do this.

Another factor Xsyon has to balance is that Old Age/Legendary Mutants can't do too great amount of damage without increasing armor defense. Because players are limited to a set amount of HP. It's pretty close to 375HP.

[Static]

"You saying about "low end creatures" being strong to new players,"

Thats not what I'm saying AT ALL.

I'm saying that a low end creature should be as strong TO THE NEW PLAYER as a endgame creature would be to a endgame player.

I really dislike how your twisting what I'm saying around and its getting to the point where I'm not sure if I'm going to respond to you anymore cuz its like your only typing to get yourself heard cuz your not responding to anything I'm saying, in fact, your trying to stawman what I'm saying into something else so it better supports your point of view.

With respect; my messages are here for jordi, so if you can't take the time to actually read them and respond on subject, than please do not respond to them off subject derailing what I'm saying so I'm forced to repeat myself and correct you.

[MrDDT]

"You saying about "low end creatures" being strong to new players,"

Thats not what I'm saying AT ALL.

I'm saying that a low end creature should be as strong TO THE NEW PLAYER as a endgame creature would be to a endgame player.

I really dislike how your twisting what I'm saying around and its getting to the point where I'm not sure if I'm going to respond to you anymore cuz its like your only typing to get yourself heard cuz your not responding to anything I'm saying, in fact, your trying to stawman what I'm saying into something else so it better supports your point of view.

With respect; my messages are here for jordi, so if you can't take the time to actually read them and respond on subject, than please do not respond to them off subject derailing what I'm saying so I'm forced to repeat myself and correct you.

Um, I quoted you bro. I'm not twisting it.

Also Xsyon himself is the one that said how strong animals should be to a new player. These are not opinions of mine. He is literally saying they should be easy for a new player.

You literally said they should be strong to a new player.

[Static]

5 hits from a new player is something "easy to kill" in my books, we obviously disagree on alot of core issues here.

I don't see how a new player gains ANY combat experience by 1hitting something.

I think people who have hundreds of hps should be able to 1hit some low end stuff, but making nearly everything 1hitable is going to ruin endgame content.

There needs to be balance that is based upon WHO IS FIGHTING THEM, not random numbers or your opinion.

[Static]

"You literally said they should be strong to a new player."

No I never did, I said it should be AS STRONG to a new player as a endgame is to endgame player.

Like this is why your pissing me off cuz your taking my words and twisting it around.

200hp creature vs a 200 hp player should be as strong as a 50 hp creature vs a 50hp player, how dense are you that you think that is me saying that low end creatures "need to be strong"? Your twisting my words and honestly its not helpful, its derailing what I'm saying PURELY cuz you cant understand or follow or you disagree?

I don't care if you can't follow what I'm saying man, stop twisting my words.

[MrDDT]

5 hits from a new player is something "easy to kill" in my books, we obviously disagree on alot of core issues here.

I don't see how a new player gains ANY combat experience by 1hitting something.

I think people who have hundreds of hps should be able to 1hit some low end stuff, but making nearly everything 1hitable is going to ruin endgame content.

There needs to be balance that is based upon WHO IS FIGHTING THEM, not random numbers or your opinion.

"You literally said they should be strong to a new player."

No I never did, I said it should be AS STRONG to a new player as a endgame is to endgame player.

Like this is why your pissing me off cuz your taking my words and twisting it around.

200hp creature vs a 200 hp player should be as strong as a 50 hp creature vs a 50hp player, how dense are you that you think that is me saying that low end creatures "need to be strong"? Your twisting my words and honestly its not helpful, its derailing what I'm saying PURELY cuz you cant understand or follow or you disagree?

I don't care if you can't follow what I'm saying man, stop twisting my words.

I think I get what you saying now.

You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that deer and bear are very easy to a vet like you. Thus you want rabbits and other small game to be equal to in difficulty to them as a deer or bear would be to you?


FYI
I kill deer and bears in 1 hit to 3 hits.

[Xsyon]

The Test Server is up with some changes. I haven't tested everything myself so I hope these changes are functioning as intended.

Please focus the feedback here on balancing what's currently in game based on my initial post. I will start a new thread for further future combat improvements and suggestions.

Most important: If the current player damage, swing power, etc. work well for PvP, we can start to adjust creature damage and hp. I would primarily like to know if all player variables look good now.

Note: If you are commenting on what's on the live servers, please check the Test Server and compare. I've now patched a considerable number of minor changes.

Note: Currently Pets and Stables are turned on but I am not ready yet for feedback on those. I will post another thread for feedback on those when I am ready.

Here are some changes and comments on the feedback so far.

Changes:

1) Creatures going through walls. This has been adjusted.

- Some of these were low walls that should allow passage now. Those are ok.

- Location reported by tig313 and Fortress Gate reported by chojinuk should be ok on the Test Server now. I've been adjusting the blocking bounds on many parts including pillars and gates. If there are any other locations where you see creatures go through a wall, please post the coordinates and type of part.

2) Attack aggro has been adjusted. Creatures should attack back more and flee less.

3) Weapon ranges slightly adjusted. (This was already done a few days ago but not sure if I mentioned it)

4) Base weapon damage has been reduced by 20%

5) Swing power charge time doubled.

6) Swing power charger max power increased to 150%

7) Displayed percentage on armor reduction / defense messages corrected.

8) Doubled up river drink sound fixed (assuming this was with a female toon?)

Comments:

1) Sector boundary crossing lag. This is inevitable with all the stuff that loads up. If it's at most a couple of seconds, it's fine.

2) Creatures don't attack while swimming. They should attack less or try to avoid you but I believe they should still attack back (on the Test Server with my changes at least). I will look into it.

3) Missing attack animations: I will look into this. It might be interrupted by another animation. Are you using parry or just straight attacking?

4) Animals in one spot. Please check the Test Server and if you see any of these, please give me a location to check.

5) Problems with blocking creatures attacking you on buildings. I will adjust this so that if they are stuck within your range they will be able to attack.

6) Spinning to avoid attacks. Is this too easy? I can adjust the spin rate on creatures or the damage reduction based on the direction of their attack when it lands.

7) Ranges: I haven't been able to reproduce any distant (12 m or so) attacks that land. I will try to reproduce this tomorrow with the help of Guides. If none of us can reproduce this and you players still can (on the Test Server) I will try to set up a time to test with some of you directly.

8) Glitched super revenants were mentioned. Are there any that still behave glitched?

9) Suggestion: Power attacks instead of charged attacks: I don't see a big difference in end result although it may be more obvious to new players. Both end up with slower but more powerful attacks. Is the suggestion to have a separate icon for a power attack with a time delay? (Kind of like attacks in Warcraft or games like that?)

10) Suggestion: Remove charged / loading bars: I could optionally turn off the bar for players that find it distracting. Right now removing charged attacks entirely is too big of a task but I could replace charged attacks with a special attack in a later patch (after Pets are out). I want to balance what we currently have so that I can patch Pets and Stables next.

11) Suggestion: Fight or flight based on power of enemy. It works a bit like that (based on the damage done in one hit) but yes, I can further improve this. I'll put it on my suggestion list for now.

12) Making end game creatures easier? I am definitely not doing this.

I am following the goals stated in my initial post and listening to feedback on the current difficulty or ease to make adjustments to achieve those goals. Players are testing different situations and I am balancing for a wide range of toons with different powers.

13) I removed the hp bar on dead creatures. I don't like it there. At some point I have to make some changes to please myself too. lol

Thanks!

[MrDDT]

Mutants are still way to easy.

Test Server Lady vs Mutant Deer
349 HP - Ancient Veteran Bluetip Horned Deer Buck
160 HP - Lady - 100QL leather armor, 45QL blade, 80QL Founder's weapon. 100~ skills. Moderate stats. (60 to 110)

https://youtu.be/HNvZQ0oC0wI

Range looks good. I didnt see any range over 4m hitting me.
Spin speed on them mobs are pretty good. HP on lower tier animals and damage looks pretty good.

I think for mutants if you want them to be group combat for vets, you need to ramp up their HP by a lot. 10 to 20x more.
The damage they do looks great. It's not too much to 1 shot people. Their attack speed is good. Not slow enough that you can get in and out too easy, but not fast enough they put out too much damage per second.

Fight or flight seems to be pretty good vs Lady (Mid Tier Vet). I've not testing on a newer toon.

9) Suggestion: Power attacks instead of charged attacks: I don't see a big difference in end result although it may be more obvious to new players. Both end up with slower but more powerful attacks. Is the suggestion to have a separate icon for a power attack with a time delay? (Kind of like attacks in Warcraft or games like that?)

This would be where power attacks use like extra energy, and have a cool down. So you don't use them every attack like you would (did) charged attacks.

[Static]

I think I get what you saying now.

You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that deer and bear are very easy to a vet like you. Thus you want rabbits and other small game to be equal to in difficulty to them as a deer or bear would be to you?


FYI
I kill deer and bears in 1 hit to 3 hits.

More or less, yes, but I don't think 1-3 hits should be the aim of any balance. I think 5 or more gives enough time for combat to actually happen.

A rat should be as easy to a new player as a bear or deer is to a endgame player, yes, a bear or deer is not something too hard to a endgame player with 200-300+ hps but it also doesn't die instantly, thats the whole point, things that die instantly offer no fight, no experience for combat, no challenge, its boring.

If a 450hp bear dies in 3 hits thats 150dmg per hit, imo thats a bit unreasonable imo.