06/04/2020 - Feedback Request - Creature Balance

[Bejaymac]

Crossing Sector Boundary, the amount of lag being generated crossing the boundary seems to vary, some can freeze the game for a couple of seconds, while others barely register. I'm wondering if this is related to a bottleneck I found back when you first started testing taming, going near any tribe with a large number of animals would initially lag like crazy. Then your ping would return to normal, but none of the animals were there, and you couldn't interact with anything, even took twenty minutes to have a chat with Michael as the system was struggling that bad. The bottleneck then was the client was writing everything into the client log, now running in windowed mode and opening the client log eased the bottleneck, but you had to do that several times to clear it completely, only then would all of the animals show up, and you could finally interact with objects.


Swimming animals can't attack you, spent several minutes toying with a shadow bear in the lake, they need to be lured back to land before they will attack.

Some animals appear to be missing their attack animation, that shadow bear just stood there looking at me, while I was taking damage from it.

Encountered quite a few animals that just stood in the one spot, they go through their idle animations but don't move from that spot. Those that are likely to agro will go after you when you get too close, the rest wont even move when you hit them, if you ignore them then they will still be in that spot when you pass that area several hours later.

Animals ignoring you when on buildings is a seriously bad idea, you've just made animal material farming much safer. You can attack them through a wall without having to worry about them attacking you back, same goes for floors. Build a big cage, floor the entire thing, lure a pile of animals into the cage, and calmly wander around inside the cage killing the animals, not one of them will fight back.

Thanks to those "glitched" Super Revs I haven't backed up while rev bashing for a couple of years, they are just too fast for it to work, so I've been going sideways and looping around them. Using that same method on animals now means the animals will run around in a large loop trying to attack me, going to get dizzy doing this for too long, but it means I can kill them without them doing much damage to me.

[MrDDT]

Swimming animals attack you less, but they sure can attack you.

[Static]

I think most creatures are running from ddt due to the "fight or flight" mechanic since hes 350+hps he could be causing these creatures to auto run due to flight over fight.

I say this since my main character has alot of hps and they run from him, while my wifes character only has 80hps and they dont seem to run as much from her.

So this makes me think that balancing every creature in the game to someone who has 350hp will make it so that lower level players will never see creatures run from them under any situation if its balanced to only run if someone has hundreds of hps.

With that being said, I don't think ANY creature should have under 50hp, being able to 1hit any creature should not be the goal.

[MrDDT]

I think most creatures are running from ddt due to the "fight or flight" mechanic since hes 350+hps he could be causing these creatures to auto run due to flight over fight.

I say this since my main character has alot of hps and they run from him, while my wifes character only has 80hps and they dont seem to run as much from her.

So this makes me think that balancing every creature in the game to someone who has 350hp will make it so that lower level players will never see creatures run from them under any situation if its balanced to only run if someone has hundreds of hps.

With that being said, I don't think ANY creature should have under 50hp, being able to 1hit any creature should not be the goal.

Totally disagree with a lot of this post.

1) I'm not doing the testing with 350+ HP toon. Also did it with more than 1 toon.
2) I think some animals for sure should be killed in 1 hit, not only that I think they should be killed in 1 hit from a new player with low skills.
You have to remember not every char will have 80+STR, or using high QL weapons. Using a 25QL weapon makes for attacks very weak. Having 50HP can kill a LOT of new players, as many start out with only 30 to 40HP.

I see no reason a baby hamster should have 50HP or more.

Creature balancing is one thing, but to try and change weapon balance THAN change creature balance is going to make the issue more complex than it needs to be by making two variables instead of one.

Weapon damage was already changed in the patch. Thus it's not like it is balanced. Yes I see no reason why you can't change more than 1 thing to balance the whole.

Why not make power attacks instead of charged attacks?

Thats how "other games" do it, you have a quick attack (that we already have) and we have a slower more powerful attack thats generally your power attack.

I agree with this.
I think it's easier for people to understand as most games already use a system like this. I also think it would make combat seem more active.

I think the entire game should phase away from loading bars or charged bars. If you want a attack to be slower or take more time, just make the animation slower and change the values, instead of us watching a loading bar that honestly is really unfun, loading bars suck for combat.

I agree with this.

[Static]

Instead of going case by case and saying "I personally feel this is too strong or too weak in compairson to my character" I am trying to get to a core root way of sorting out the balance so its balanced to EVERYBODY not just the people who fought that particular creature and gave a opinion, cuz those opinions will differ depending on the stats of your character.

Thats why I'm saying there needs to be a standard here and attempting to come up with one.

[Static]

Lets be honest here, if you and me and both 1hit a 50hp rat or hamster, how is this a problem?

I mean you think people should be able to 1hit a hamster or rat, but the reality is we can both do it even with my suggestion.

The only people who wouldn't be able to 1hit them is NEW players and thats a GOOD THING, cuz they would need to fight it in combat instead of just walking up and getting a effortless kill that will teach them nothing and make them disappointed in combat.

[MrDDT]

I'd rather see a rat with low damage and 50hp than a rat with decent damage that you can 1 hit.

How does a player learn anything from 1 hitting a rat or hamster? Spoiler; they don't.

You need low end creatures (rats, hamsters, rabbits) to be as strong to new players as a deer or bear is to endgame players.

This means 1hits just isn't a good idea, theres no combat to be had if you just run up and 1hit.

If a new player with a 25q shovel is doing around 10 dmg per hit with low skill than I really don't think 50hp's is too much.

But that does bring up a interesting subject; it shouldn't be balanced only by hps, it should also be balanced verse the expected skill level of the play who should be fighting it.

As in, the hamster should prob be balanced the weakest, while a rat a lil stronger, maybe a squirrel being a lil stronger than that and a rabbit a lil stronger than that. So you could aim the hamster and rat at brand new players with 25q weapon and 5 skill, while you could argue that a rabbit for example could be more balanced towards 25 skill and 40q weapon just to throw out some random numbers.

I totally understand not everybody is going to have endgame equipment or their skills maxed, but no creatures should be balanced for that anyways aside of mutants and bears imo, those are the only creatures that should be balanced for people like you me and sark... everything else should be balanced for who is expected to fight that creature, meaning rat would be lowest skill and weapon, while bear or mutants would be expecting you have the highest end equipment.

You saying about "low end creatures" being strong to new players, goes against what Xsyon has outlined in this post. I would suggest read the top post by Xsyon then make suggestions to make it line up to what he wants.

There is nothing wrong with a few being 1 hit, then making it harder as they go up. Hamsters should have no issues being 1 hit as babies. Remember babies have like 1/8th the HP as an adult. So if you make baby hamsters have 50HP, you would currently (I know this can be balanced) be making daddy hamsters with 200HP. Which is 2x more than 90% of the players.

Also do not forget that players want to start off easy, to learn the game. They also would like to be able to get resources.
Players start with Q25 weapons however, when they goto craft a weapon they are much lower QL starting.

You are also listing the highest damage weapon in the game a shovel. Most players do not start or have a shovel starting out.

Don't forget that Xsyon stated himself he also wants some animals (Mutants) to be a group combat. So even you or Sark should not be soloing Legendary Mutants.

I agree with you on the last part, that you need to balance those things based on VETs with high/perfect skill, with highQL armor/weapons.

Sadly I doubt this will happen as I could solo Legendary Shadowbears before the patch. Now I can solo them without even getting 1/2 HP with non max weapons and naked.

Instead of going case by case and saying "I personally feel this is too strong or too weak in compairson to my character" I am trying to get to a core root way of sorting out the balance so its balanced to EVERYBODY not just the people who fought that particular creature and gave a opinion, cuz those opinions will differ depending on the stats of your character.

Thats why I'm saying there needs to be a standard here and attempting to come up with one.

Lets be honest here, if you and me and both 1hit a 50hp rat or hamster, how is this a problem?

I mean you think people should be able to 1hit a hamster or rat, but the reality is we can both do it even with my suggestion.

The only people who wouldn't be able to 1hit them is NEW players and thats a GOOD THING, cuz they would need to fight it in combat instead of just walking up and getting a effortless kill that will teach them nothing and make them disappointed in combat.


Lets be honest here, if you and me and both 1hit a 50hp rat or hamster, how is this a problem?

I mean you think people should be able to 1hit a hamster or rat, but the reality is we can both do it even with my suggestion.

The only people who wouldn't be able to 1hit them is NEW players and thats a GOOD THING, cuz they would need to fight it in combat instead of just walking up and getting a effortless kill that will teach them nothing and make them disappointed in combat.

I know you might think I look at it based on my toon. I look at the whole picture. As I stated here before and currently in view of a new player.
He already set the standard. He said what he wants.

-------------------------------------------------

- Small creatures should be easy to kill, even for low skilled new players.

- The toughest small creatures (adult, high power) may be a challenge for a newbie or medium skilled player but still easy for a high skilled veteran player.

- Large regular creatures should be difficult but manageable to kill solo by a high skilled veteran player. Full legendary adult bears may require two or more tough players to kill.

- Mutants of all ages should be a challenge and require a group of medium skilled players. Young mutants would be as strong as an adult bear with at least medium combat power.

- Old age and legendary mutants should be difficult and require a group of veteran players to kill.

-------------------------------------------------

I am talking about a new player, and I stated as much.

Again there are good reasons why a new player should be able to 1 shot some (very few) mobs. Resources and Learning the game. You don't want a baby rabbit taking 5 hits to kill, not even for a new player.
They end up having to chase it down, or whatever. It also makes no sense.
There is nothing saying that a normal rabbit can't be 2 hits. But give something to a new player to be able to kill. Remember some of them have a hard time figuring out how to even use combat mode to start with.

@Static I would look closely at what Xsyon is saying and balance it for that. He has given a clear outline. I believe this outline is good.





Sadly I also believe we will not see "Legendary Mutants" likely so hard that they take a group of vets to kill. I just don't see that. I mean based on the current combat, you would need to make them 5k+ HP to do this.

Another factor Xsyon has to balance is that Old Age/Legendary Mutants can't do too great amount of damage without increasing armor defense. Because players are limited to a set amount of HP. It's pretty close to 375HP.

[Static]

5 hits from a new player is something "easy to kill" in my books, we obviously disagree on alot of core issues here.

I don't see how a new player gains ANY combat experience by 1hitting something.

I think people who have hundreds of hps should be able to 1hit some low end stuff, but making nearly everything 1hitable is going to ruin endgame content.

There needs to be balance that is based upon WHO IS FIGHTING THEM, not random numbers or your opinion.

[Static]

Was weapon damage ACTUALLY changed?

Or are you talking about reduced additional damage due to lack of 180% charged hit?

Cuz those are two VERY different things.

I'd say we do MORE damage now than we did before cuz theres no charge bar, meaning you can get 2-3 hits off in the same time as it took you to do a charged attack. Even 2 attacks in the same time as 1 charged attack is 150% dmg, pretty dang close to 1 charged attack.

What I'm saying here is, unless I'm wrong, the base weapon damage and the entire calculation for it has not changed at all aside of removing 180% dmg from charged, lowering to 100% and adding 75% dmg to fastest hit... this is not changing weapon values or damage at all, its ONLY added damage to fast attacks from 1% to 75% and charged from 180% to 100% and I AGREE with these changes and jordi's reasoning, most new players die to hamsters or simple creatures due to 1% dmg with fastest attack no charge, by changing things so it does 75% dmg its solving this problem of new players dying to anything cuz they cant figure combat out, I get its not a YOU problem, but it IS a wide spread problem that this addresses and fixes.

Again, two hits at 75% is faster than 1 charged hit, so I don't see how we're doing any less DPS, just less charged hit that is honestly really slow.

The game shouldn't be balanced over single hits, it should be balanced for dps, the amount of time it takes you to produce that damage, not flat simple numbers of a single hit cuz a shovel will win every single time that way, where as a knife is faster or a axe is faster, the dsp of them should all be around the same imo, NOT the single hits of them.

[Static]

I think weapon damage is fine where its at and would be a mistake to change before or instead of balancing creatures.

Creature balancing is one thing, but to try and change weapon balance THAN change creature balance is going to make the issue more complex than it needs to be by making two variables instead of one.

If theres only one variable to work with, we can more easily find that sweet spot that feels balanaced, than once all the creatures are balanaced, we could think about raising or lowering the player damage in response to make them stronger or weaker as needed to the balanaced creatures.

"If I set up charged attacks to increase damage as before, I'm stuck with the same problem as before: Creatures will be balanced based on players using charged attacks always. New players won't use charged attacks and will find combat too hard.

Maybe I need to do something to make the charging up more obvious to new players, but I'm not sure what.

Can any of you recommend another similar game that used charged attacks? If I could see what other survival games do in this case I could better adjust things to match what new players have come to expect."

Why not make power attacks instead of charged attacks?

Thats how "other games" do it, you have a quick attack (that we already have) and we have a slower more powerful attack thats generally your power attack.

You can even look at real life to see the same thing, in the UFC for example with people really fighting each other there is a huge difference between say a haymaker and a jab, the jab is quick, accurate and to the point, while the haymaker is long, looping and takes more time to hit the spot but if it does it would knock you out in a way the jab never had a chance to do.

So my suggestion here is to make a swing that is half speed, but +50% dmg, I think twice damage would be too much and would make people only use power attacks in the hope of getting a hit.

I agree, charged attack is only ever going to be either "too weak to ever use" or "too powerful and thus everything need to be balanced off charged attacks"

I think the entire game should phase away from loading bars or charged bars. If you want a attack to be slower or take more time, just make the animation slower and change the values, instead of us watching a loading bar that honestly is really unfun, loading bars suck for combat.