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  1. #11
    Twitch based combat BTW is not new or innovative. Its been done for a long time. They call them FPS. Or games like Fortnight.
    What are you smoking?

    FPS is first person shooters.

    First person shooters are not multidirectional melee twitch combat, I'm talking about all the different directions of combat instead of just being the same swing from the same direction, we have over half a dozen different swings, angles, how you can hit someone.

    Reminds me of kingdom come deliverance.. great combat game... but you don't play combat games... why you commenting here again if the only experience you have with online games is wow style combat? What experience do you bring to the table here when you haven't played anything or worked on any games? I'm legitimately trying to help with real experience here, you can't even follow the terms I'm using from the industry.

  2. #12
    Well, with conflicting feedback such as this I will wait for feedback from other players and possibly run a poll if necessary.

    A few comments:

    1) I can adjust parrying as suggested.

    2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.

    3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

    4) I am also fine with twitch style combat. However, there are some issues. As MrDDT said, because of various ping rates from players around the world, perfect synchronization is not possible. Synch is a lot better than before and that enables me to move forward with ranged combat. I will not be able to match the level of synchronization of solo games or games that run small local servers. As I don't personally play any combat focused games I'm not very familiar with them and this makes it difficult for me to code, though I try my best. I did play Mount and Blade a bit and that type of combat is very difficult for me to mimic, especially without a proper animator.

    5) Question for Static: When you mention a Power Attack, how would that be triggered if not by a hot key (or clicking an icon)?
    Would it require a specific combination of mouse actions or something else?

    Thanks

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    1) I can adjust parrying as suggested.
    Currently not noticing a change.
    Also parry is random coming from animal attacks with no cues on which way its really coming. An animal attacking with its right paw and you parry left does not make it parry do 100% parry. So the cues the animal is attacking is total guesswork on parry defense.



    [QUOTE=Xsyon;106031]
    2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.[.quote]

    You're assessment of them is correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.
    Exactly how I feel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    4) I am also fine with twitch style combat. However, there are some issues. As MrDDT said, because of various ping rates from players around the world, perfect synchronization is not possible. Synch is a lot better than before and that enables me to move forward with ranged combat. I will not be able to match the level of synchronization of solo games or games that run small local servers. As I don't personally play any combat focused games I'm not very familiar with them and this makes it difficult for me to code, though I try my best. I did play Mount and Blade a bit and that type of combat is very difficult for me to mimic, especially without a proper animator.
    Exactly.
    You would also want to give the visual cues to players also of what is going on. So they can dodge or defend it. Like in Mount and Blade, you can do a counter parry block. You need to be in the right direction, you see to see they are going to parry your attack, and then you counter it. Not only does this take very fast pings to see because all of this is happening in 1s or less. You also need to be able to see by visual cues this is going on. If you make it just guess work, then all skillful play is lost.

  4. #14
    5) Question for Static: When you mention a Power Attack, how would that be triggered if not by a hot key (or clicking an icon)?
    Would it require a specific combination of mouse actions or something else?
    You could honestly leave it as the "charged attack" whenever you "hold your weapon up as if your charging" whenever you release it, it triggers the power attack.

    So we could make this happen by removing the charged attack loading bar and INSTEAD making it so the swing animation speed was cut in half while adding 50% damage.

    This would cause the swing to go slower than a regular attack, at half speed, but for 50% more damage.

    It should also give a hit recovery when it hits, but since its going to do extra damage anyways it should

    2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.
    most other "survival sandboxes" are not very popular combat games, I feel trying to make your game after another game that isn't good combat isn't very wise when you already have a better system than the games you've claimed, why downgrade when you could upgrade?

    Mount and blade combat should be closer to the goal. Directional attacks and blocking is why mount and blade has such a cult following, they love that style of combat and is the main reason why they play the game.|

    Again with kingdom come deliverance, the story is okay, the world is okay, but people play it purely for the multi directional attacks and blocking, the combat is why it has such a cult following, not its "amazing story" cuz imo the story wasn't that great when it randomly ends without finishing the story, it left alot to be desired story wise... but the combat was sooooo good that I fininshed every last side quest and possible thing in the game, thats how good the combat was that it overshadowed every other bad aspect of the game.

    Xsyon is opposite of that atm, every other aspect of the game is overshadowing the combat atm, so your not getting alot of combat based players due to that.... I feel if combat was modeled after mount n blade or kingdom come deliverance multi directional combat than we would have a combat game that people actually want to play for the combat.... instead of a building game that happens to have combat in it, it should be the main focus since alooot of players that will be the main focus, combat, doubly so on a pvp server, those people want to raid and combat.

    3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.
    Some things like say a dodge would be hard to do without a double tap in the direction you want to dodge OR there being a skill button on your 1-9 you can press.

    I think its better to double tap left to roll or dodge left, or hit shift to do the same thing than it woudl be to hit 3 on your 1-9 for it.

    I think combat should be engrained into the character, instead of being a bunch of skills for bonus damage.

    You want to block or parry, you can use your mouse for that, why would we make a skill for that?

    Extra damage? We're trying to balance creatures so we don't NEED extra damage, why would we give extra damage for no reason with a bunch of spamable skills? This would ruin combat and turn the game into something I'm not interested in playing, WoW is by far the worst, bottom of the barrel type of pvp combat in existence today, it sucks and would ruin the game if put into it, reducing it to the title of another wow clone that there is hundreds to thousands of games like it, instead of being the unq thing xsyon is, we'd just be another wow clone.

    I'd rather see this closer to dark souls than wow.

    Thats 3 games that are polar opposite of wow, mount n blade, kingdom come delverance, dark souls, these are good combat games to model after unlike wow.

  5. #15
    Modeling your melee combat after rust I think isn't very wise either since the game is a first person shooter, your supposed to have a gun, not melee weapons.

    Melee weapons are a 2ndary thought in rust, again, its a first person shooter sandbox, not a melee sandbox like xsyon.

    Again the most close game to compare would be mount n blade imo, while combat is currently coded to be as complex as kingdom come delverance with the multi directionals... Honestly if we can mix the multi directional with a dark souls style combat than we would have a extremely fun combat game to play.
    Last edited by Static; 06-12-2020 at 11:11 AM.

  6. #16
    Why I keep bring'n up kingdom come delverance is cuz they do a really good job with following through with attacks.

    Meaning your swings are not fast or instant, different attacks have different swing speeds. Like your sword jab is going to be alot faster than a swing'n hit from the side, but it also does alot less damage. This should more or less be the goal here, you have slower, more powerful attack that someone can move out of the way of more easily and than counter hit you more easily after with.

    The speed of the attacks makes the combat work, since players are stuck with the follow through of their swing if they miss, plus the start of the swing gives away what direction the combat is coming from so you can parry from that direction.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Currently not noticing a change.
    Yup, I haven't patched a change yet. I'll post when I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Also parry is random coming from animal attacks with no cues on which way its really coming. An animal attacking with its right paw and you parry left does not make it parry do 100% parry. So the cues the animal is attacking is total guesswork on parry defense.
    Do you have any suggestions for visual clues? Slowing down the animations?

    What do other games do? Are there any games that you know of with directional parry where you can gauge the direction of incoming attacks?

    I guess in Mount & Blade you can gauge the attack direction because attacks are slower? Or synchronized better? (In fast combat even a 1/4 second delay is noticeable, I believe, 1/2 second for sure). Or are the animations more exaggerated?

    Thanks

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    You could honestly leave it as the "charged attack" whenever you "hold your weapon up as if your charging" whenever you release it, it triggers the power attack.
    Ok, here is what I understand you are suggestion for the power attack:

    1) I take the charged attack, but remove the swing power bar.

    2) I remove the damage adjustment for partially charging the attack.

    3) You can still click to raise and hold the attack. If you hold the attack, then release (as opposed to just clicking or clicking and releasing before reaching the 'hold' position), this becomes a 'power attack'

    4) The second half of the animation (the release of the swing) would be slowed down.

    5) The attack would do increased damage (just like the current charged attack, but less of a damage increase).

    Is this correct?

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Most other "survival sandboxes" are not very popular combat games
    While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

    Comments like 'x' type of combat sucks aren't constructive. Players enjoy different types of combat and I will decide on what the overall community here enjoys and what the type of new players that come to Xsyon are looking for.

    As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated. A hybrid system, I believe would work well. Adding a few special attacks would not convert the current combat system into WoW combat. WoW combat is entirely based on the special attacks with auto combat happening in between. I would not set up the system like that.

    The special attacks DDT suggested aren't simply bonus damage. They are attacks that would have different effects (damage over time, delays, stuns). Those are all things I originally planned to have in the game anyways.

    Thanks

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Do you have any suggestions for visual clues? Slowing down the animations?

    What do other games do? Are there any games that you know of with directional parry where you can gauge the direction of incoming attacks?

    I guess in Mount & Blade you can gauge the attack direction because attacks are slower? Or synchronized better? (In fast combat even a 1/4 second delay is noticeable, I believe, 1/2 second for sure). Or are the animations more exaggerated?
    Games like Mount & Blade of course but this is not an MMO.
    M&B is very fast action. With chamber blocks (where you block with the weapon mid swing sorta like a parry), parry, block, dodge. This is the closest game I can think of where it has combat as Static is talking about. I think this combat is very very good, high player skill evolved. Which is why it's one of the best melee combat systems.
    Slowing down animations for Xsyon (because its an MMO) would be required as in M&B like you said even 1/4 second (250ms) is highly noticeable. Actions are taking place in 100ms to 200ms. You have to see someone is attacking, direction, and type of attack. Then think of which type of counter you can do, and have the time left to animate it. You kill other player/npcs in 1 to 6 hits.


    Take this with a grain of salt. Another way is heavy visual cues like in Tera.
    Here you have dodge by double tapping, or using a special key to trigger you to get out of the way extra fast, or just move if enough time. (Like Xsyon currently)
    They also have skills that parry and shield blocks. If you watch a video on it, you can see the monsters are a lot more of a big battle type fight.
    This would require a lot less PING issues as it's a lot more scripted in what monsters/animals are doing.
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/323370/TERA/


    There are other games, but these are the 2 basic systems in this type of combat. M&B is a standard on that type, and Tera for MMO's is another type.

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