06/11/2020 - Feedback Requests - Combat

[Static]

Like someone spamming the same skills to kill mobs repeatedly trying to spawn a unq item drop on WoW, the fun is "maybe I'll get that item I'm grinding for" not "this combat is great". So your looking at this entire thing wrong, people on WoW are having fun doing the raid, or grinding for the item, not using the type of combat they picked, the combat doesn't make the game fun, what they are using the combat IN ORDER TO DO is what makes the game fun.

Currently theres nothing to do with combat in xsyon, so you can't use unfun combat and ask people to ignore and overlook it for the other fun parts of the game ~cuz theres nothing fun you can do with this type of combat that will make you overlook the combat... the combat itself needs to be the fun part of the game if you have no way of making them overlook the bad combat while enjoying something else, cuz there isn't anything else in xsyon... so adding skill spam WILL NEVER fix this problem of "combat being broken" due to these points your overlooking; everything outside of combat that makes the combat worth powering through despite it being unfun combat that every other game has moved away from..

[Static]

5) Question for Static: When you mention a Power Attack, how would that be triggered if not by a hot key (or clicking an icon)?
Would it require a specific combination of mouse actions or something else?

You could honestly leave it as the "charged attack" whenever you "hold your weapon up as if your charging" whenever you release it, it triggers the power attack.

So we could make this happen by removing the charged attack loading bar and INSTEAD making it so the swing animation speed was cut in half while adding 50% damage.

This would cause the swing to go slower than a regular attack, at half speed, but for 50% more damage.

It should also give a hit recovery when it hits, but since its going to do extra damage anyways it should

2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.

most other "survival sandboxes" are not very popular combat games, I feel trying to make your game after another game that isn't good combat isn't very wise when you already have a better system than the games you've claimed, why downgrade when you could upgrade?

Mount and blade combat should be closer to the goal. Directional attacks and blocking is why mount and blade has such a cult following, they love that style of combat and is the main reason why they play the game.|

Again with kingdom come deliverance, the story is okay, the world is okay, but people play it purely for the multi directional attacks and blocking, the combat is why it has such a cult following, not its "amazing story" cuz imo the story wasn't that great when it randomly ends without finishing the story, it left alot to be desired story wise... but the combat was sooooo good that I fininshed every last side quest and possible thing in the game, thats how good the combat was that it overshadowed every other bad aspect of the game.

Xsyon is opposite of that atm, every other aspect of the game is overshadowing the combat atm, so your not getting alot of combat based players due to that.... I feel if combat was modeled after mount n blade or kingdom come deliverance multi directional combat than we would have a combat game that people actually want to play for the combat.... instead of a building game that happens to have combat in it, it should be the main focus since alooot of players that will be the main focus, combat, doubly so on a pvp server, those people want to raid and combat.

3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

Some things like say a dodge would be hard to do without a double tap in the direction you want to dodge OR there being a skill button on your 1-9 you can press.

I think its better to double tap left to roll or dodge left, or hit shift to do the same thing than it woudl be to hit 3 on your 1-9 for it.

I think combat should be engrained into the character, instead of being a bunch of skills for bonus damage.

You want to block or parry, you can use your mouse for that, why would we make a skill for that?

Extra damage? We're trying to balance creatures so we don't NEED extra damage, why would we give extra damage for no reason with a bunch of spamable skills? This would ruin combat and turn the game into something I'm not interested in playing, WoW is by far the worst, bottom of the barrel type of pvp combat in existence today, it sucks and would ruin the game if put into it, reducing it to the title of another wow clone that there is hundreds to thousands of games like it, instead of being the unq thing xsyon is, we'd just be another wow clone.

I'd rather see this closer to dark souls than wow.

Thats 3 games that are polar opposite of wow, mount n blade, kingdom come delverance, dark souls, these are good combat games to model after unlike wow.

[Xsyon]

You could honestly leave it as the "charged attack" whenever you "hold your weapon up as if your charging" whenever you release it, it triggers the power attack.

Ok, here is what I understand you are suggestion for the power attack:

1) I take the charged attack, but remove the swing power bar.

2) I remove the damage adjustment for partially charging the attack.

3) You can still click to raise and hold the attack. If you hold the attack, then release (as opposed to just clicking or clicking and releasing before reaching the 'hold' position), this becomes a 'power attack'

4) The second half of the animation (the release of the swing) would be slowed down.

5) The attack would do increased damage (just like the current charged attack, but less of a damage increase).

Is this correct?

[Static]

Ok, here is what I understand you are suggestion for the power attack:

1) I take the charged attack, but remove the swing power bar.

2) I remove the damage adjustment for partially charging the attack.

3) You can still click to raise and hold the attack. If you hold the attack, then release (as opposed to just clicking or clicking and releasing before reaching the 'hold' position), this becomes a 'power attack'

4) The second half of the animation (the release of the swing) would be slowed down.

5) The attack would do increased damage (just like the current charged attack, but less of a damage increase).

Is this correct?

Yes this is correct, I think somewhere around 50% slower speed for a 50% damage boost would be pretty balanced since you could alternatively do two quick attacks in the same time for most likely more total dps.

[Xsyon]

Most other "survival sandboxes" are not very popular combat games

While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

Comments like 'x' type of combat sucks aren't constructive. Players enjoy different types of combat and I will decide on what the overall community here enjoys and what the type of new players that come to Xsyon are looking for.

As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated. A hybrid system, I believe would work well. Adding a few special attacks would not convert the current combat system into WoW combat. WoW combat is entirely based on the special attacks with auto combat happening in between. I would not set up the system like that.

The special attacks DDT suggested aren't simply bonus damage. They are attacks that would have different effects (damage over time, delays, stuns). Those are all things I originally planned to have in the game anyways.

Thanks

[Static]

While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

Comments like 'x' type of combat sucks aren't constructive. Players enjoy different types of combat and I will decide on what the overall community here enjoys and what the type of new players that come to Xsyon are looking for.

As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated. A hybrid system, I believe would work well. Adding a few special attacks would not convert the current combat system into WoW combat. WoW combat is entirely based on the special attacks with auto combat happening in between. I would not set up the system like that.

The special attacks DDT suggested aren't simply bonus damage. They are attacks that would have different effects (damage over time, delays, stuns). Those are all things I originally planned to have in the game anyways.

Thanks

Okay maybe I'm not being clear enough when I say its "not very popular"

I mean its not fun.

As in your creating non-fun combat.

Why?

"game isn't supposed to be combat focused" Than why not shutdown pvp server? Cuz everybody on pvp wants combat to not be after thought, so suggesting that pvp doesn't need to be combat focused imo is not wise, since that is EXACTLY what people want.

NOBODY wants to play xsyon's version of WoW, "IF THEY DID" they would just go play WoW, why play xsyon version of WoW when WoW already exists? I think it would be insanely foolish to model your game after a game that is looooong dead to the point where they brought back "classic WoW servers"

With respect; I don't think you have enough experience in this field to know what your talkinga bout when you say WoW is a good type of game for combat, cuz nobody I know feels this way.

Its worse than league of legends for combat... Are you saying your goal is to turn the game into a skill spamming brawler but not a decent combat game? I don't understand the logic behind this.

I don't understand the logic behind "well other games are not very good combat, so we must have shitty combat too!"

People WANT mount and blade online, multiplayer, mmo... So why act like doing this kind of combat is "not what other mmo's do so dont do it" this whole logic thread is ill-logical cuz your basically saying "I'm only willing to do things other games that are failing or have failed have done"

Why set yourself up for the same failure of others? Why try to clone other games people DO NOT ENJOY the combat of?

Why would you NOT try to use the type of combat people would actually want in your game?

To say that cuz a ancient game like WoW uses out dated features, that you can use out dated features too, is foolish at best, you should be trying to innovate, not recreate something of the past.

You could have amazing combat in this game with the current system if it was built upon but when you say things like this

I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

Things like this feel like your throwing the entire pvp server under the bus to say "well pve doesn't want this so why should I care?"

Nobody joins pvp for combat to be a "After thought" of the game, they join pvp for combat to be the main focus, you obviously are out of touch with what people want from pvp if you think that people on pve and pvp want the same thing; this is not true, they want different things.

Obviously people on PvE are going to treat combat as a 2ndary part of the game, a after thought that doesn't matter.

While people on PvP are going to want to fight things, creatures, players and even raid things(that they cant do currently)

People want ALOT more out of PvP than you seem to think.

[Static]

"Rust/Conan Exiles"

You think these are combat games? Holy hell, your opinion is so moot cuz you don't play any combat games, I donno why your here talking about combat balance when you DO NOT EVEN PLAY ANY COMBAT GAMES.

"rust" a melee combat game? LOLOLOL "well he has a rock, and there is a axe and pickaxe in teh game, it must be cutting edge melee combat"

This is honestly what you think? Give your head a shake.

You keep echoing this "lagg is the reason we cant make good combat" when xsyon just stated he fixed the damn issue between server and player interactions or at least minimized it to the point where RANGED COMBAT was possible, this means, that the delay your talking about that would make pvp impossible isn't reality, plenty of people are able to play on 90-100 ping, I'm unsure what your talking about.

If ranged combat is possible, seems obvious that pvp combat is possible too without lagg.

I got to admit I really dislike reading your point of view..... If you love WoW so much, why are you playing this game instead of WoW? Go play WoW than if its the ultimate game? I WANT SOMETHING BETTER.

That would be like saying WOW has a chat system, so does Xsyon thus it's just like WOW.

This entire comment is pretty damn stupid. Text based games have a chat system, so should we reduce xsyon combat to text combat? No? Than stop suggesting that cuz someone use's a chat box that we should use DECADES OLD COMBAT THAT NOBODY LIKES BUT YOU.

[MrDDT]

"Rust/Conan Exiles"

You think these are combat games? Holy hell, your opinion is so moot cuz you don't play any combat games, I donno why your here talking about combat balance when you DO NOT EVEN PLAY ANY COMBAT GAMES.


This entire comment is pretty damn stupid. Text based games have a chat system, so should we reduce xsyon combat to text combat? No? Than stop suggesting that cuz someone use's a chat box that we should use DECADES OLD COMBAT THAT NOBODY LIKES BUT YOU.

Rust and Conan are Sandbox games, and survival games. I was not saying they are great combat. Which is exactly what I was saying.

I do like WOW for what it is, but it's not a sandbox game. It's not a survival game. Xsyon has a lot of things WOW and many other games do not have, which is why I like Xsyon. Crafting, Building, Skills etc. I stated this before.

I'm not sure how to make it more clear. But putting a small subsystem in from another game does not make it a clone of that game. Example was chat system, or the color rarity of items system.

Not sure where you getting I want text based combat.

You keep echoing this "lagg is the reason we cant make good combat" when xsyon just stated he fixed the damn issue between server and player interactions or at least minimized it to the point where RANGED COMBAT was possible, this means, that the delay your talking about that would make pvp impossible isn't reality, plenty of people are able to play on 90-100 ping, I'm unsure what your talking about.

If ranged combat is possible, seems obvious that pvp combat is possible too without lagg.

Yes the desync is much better, the lag is much better, however, that does not change the inherent fact of it.

Please just test the combat you are asking for in Xsyon, it's mostly here. Get a friend to PVP you on TEST server or PVP server. You try to parry their attacks. Because of the inherent delay of MMOs you will have major issues doing this. You need to see that they are attacking a direction, then you need to react, then you need to have enough time to do the parry. All this takes factions of a second. You have to do this in .9 to 1.6s in Xsyon with 0ping. Add in the fact you likely have 50 to 100 ping. If you live in the US. 100 to 250 if you live outside it.

I'm echoing this because it's important. Just test it. It's the system you are asking for already in Xsyon. See how it plays out for you. I've tested it, it's 1) Not fun 2) Near impossible 3) Ends up being guesswork. 4) Ineffective for skillful play

I got to admit I really dislike reading your point of view..... If you love WoW so much, why are you playing this game instead of WoW? Go play WoW than if its the ultimate game? I WANT SOMETHING BETTER.

Well if WOW had everything Xsyon has it wouldn't be WOW and I would be playing it. But it does not.
I'm not asking for all or most or even some of what WOW has to be in Xsyon. I'm saying for 1 thing. Hotkeys for special attacks. Which almost all games have.

Pvp players play pvp games.

If you BOTH don't play combat pvp games than you BOTH are NOT the target market, so why argue with me if "I" am the target market since I play pvp and combat focused games?

I've done more PVP in Xsyon than just about anyone I would guess. But also remember Xsyon is not targeting PVPers. It has PVP but it's not made for that market. It's made for everyone to have fun that wants to play Sandbox Survival. You don't have to take my word for it, Xsyon already said this.

Dark souls, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Mount & blade, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Yes, there is other things going on in the game that are fun too, but the MAIN REASON people play these games is FOR THE COMBAT.

I think maybe you losing focus here. 1) These are not MMORPGs nor are they Sandbox. 2) Xsyon is not combat focused.
Are these combat games fun? Yes, I think combat is fun in both of these games, but they are combat focused games, that are RPG server based or even single player. It's going to be very hard to put those systems in an MMO.

One game that does have great combat and is an MMO and considered sandbox is Darkfall Online. However, it's also semi FPS (it has FPS and 3rd person melee)

I know you want this type of combat, I'm not saying not to ask for it. I'm saying there are likely limits. Because of those limits, you might want to see about other options than left click swing attack only as we have now.

[Static]

Heres another video to watch group combat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nYxroMaUpw

[MrDDT]

Heres another video to watch group combat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nYxroMaUpw

This is a great example of what Static is talking about Mount and Blade (in this case Last Oasis) style combat

https://youtu.be/3nYxroMaUpw?t=1760


I put it at a timestamp so you can see.

You have the attacks are coming at directions, you can see with the white/red bars popping up. You can then see the player being attack is moving his weapon to parry/block the attack to either left or right side based on the white/red bars.


This is more skillful interactive combat that Static is talking about. I agree, very close to Mount and Blade (I didnt see all the options M&B has, as Last Oasis is more basic combat).

I think this combat is more fun than Xsyon by a good bit and exactly what Static is talking about.



I would like to note that as I agree this would be better than Xsyon's current combat, I feel that special attack powers would be the better way to go.



I forgot to say
@Static
This system is already in for PVP in Xsyon. So what you are asking for in PVP, is already in place.