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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

    Comments like 'x' type of combat sucks aren't constructive. Players enjoy different types of combat and I will decide on what the overall community here enjoys and what the type of new players that come to Xsyon are looking for.

    As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated. A hybrid system, I believe would work well. Adding a few special attacks would not convert the current combat system into WoW combat. WoW combat is entirely based on the special attacks with auto combat happening in between. I would not set up the system like that.

    The special attacks DDT suggested aren't simply bonus damage. They are attacks that would have different effects (damage over time, delays, stuns). Those are all things I originally planned to have in the game anyways.

    Thanks


    Okay maybe I'm not being clear enough when I say its "not very popular"

    I mean its not fun.

    As in your creating non-fun combat.

    Why?

    "game isn't supposed to be combat focused" Than why not shutdown pvp server? Cuz everybody on pvp wants combat to not be after thought, so suggesting that pvp doesn't need to be combat focused imo is not wise, since that is EXACTLY what people want.

    NOBODY wants to play xsyon's version of WoW, "IF THEY DID" they would just go play WoW, why play xsyon version of WoW when WoW already exists? I think it would be insanely foolish to model your game after a game that is looooong dead to the point where they brought back "classic WoW servers"

    With respect; I don't think you have enough experience in this field to know what your talkinga bout when you say WoW is a good type of game for combat, cuz nobody I know feels this way.

    Its worse than league of legends for combat... Are you saying your goal is to turn the game into a skill spamming brawler but not a decent combat game? I don't understand the logic behind this.

    I don't understand the logic behind "well other games are not very good combat, so we must have shitty combat too!"

    People WANT mount and blade online, multiplayer, mmo... So why act like doing this kind of combat is "not what other mmo's do so dont do it" this whole logic thread is ill-logical cuz your basically saying "I'm only willing to do things other games that are failing or have failed have done"

    Why set yourself up for the same failure of others? Why try to clone other games people DO NOT ENJOY the combat of?

    Why would you NOT try to use the type of combat people would actually want in your game?

    To say that cuz a ancient game like WoW uses out dated features, that you can use out dated features too, is foolish at best, you should be trying to innovate, not recreate something of the past.

    You could have amazing combat in this game with the current system if it was built upon but when you say things like this

    I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.
    Things like this feel like your throwing the entire pvp server under the bus to say "well pve doesn't want this so why should I care?"

    Nobody joins pvp for combat to be a "After thought" of the game, they join pvp for combat to be the main focus, you obviously are out of touch with what people want from pvp if you think that people on pve and pvp want the same thing; this is not true, they want different things.

    Obviously people on PvE are going to treat combat as a 2ndary part of the game, a after thought that doesn't matter.

    While people on PvP are going to want to fight things, creatures, players and even raid things(that they cant do currently)

    People want ALOT more out of PvP than you seem to think.
    Last edited by Static; 06-13-2020 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #22
    Like you have no hope in hell of ever competing with WoW so why even try?

    Why not make something better instead of a WoW clone if you know theres no way you could compete with them?

    Like you won't add NPC's, theres no quests, there no cities, there no world to explore or guilds to join or raids to join or any of the stuff that acutally makes WoW fun... but you think just adding WoW combat is going to let you compete with them? I heavily disagree.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Ok, here is what I understand you are suggestion for the power attack:

    1) I take the charged attack, but remove the swing power bar.

    2) I remove the damage adjustment for partially charging the attack.

    3) You can still click to raise and hold the attack. If you hold the attack, then release (as opposed to just clicking or clicking and releasing before reaching the 'hold' position), this becomes a 'power attack'

    4) The second half of the animation (the release of the swing) would be slowed down.

    5) The attack would do increased damage (just like the current charged attack, but less of a damage increase).

    Is this correct?
    Yes this is correct, I think somewhere around 50% slower speed for a 50% damage boost would be pretty balanced since you could alternatively do two quick attacks in the same time for most likely more total dps.

  4. #24
    While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.
    I gotta address this again cuz its amazing to me how out of touch you are with what your player base wants on PvP and why they are quitting due to these features not being in place.

    Combat is part of the game, yes, but on a PVP server it needs to be more than a back burned after thought, thats what adding skill spam is, a after thought, what someone too lazy to do it properly would do cuz its the easist thing to do, yet the most unfun thing to do. Your creating a easily coded combat system that everybody I know who has complained about combat would NOT enjoy.

    I'll say that again, if you added WoW style combat to the game, it would NOT solve any of the peoples problems that I know of who have quit the game, they would still quit the game with WoW style combat since its not solving their "combat is broken" problem.

    Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players, not cuz of a "lack of spamable hotcue skills for extra damage"

    Things like there only being one attack from the creature feels really really bad, focusing on spamable skills for a player BEFORE this would be foolish cuz you would be "solving" a non-problem in response to a real problem thats not being solved; how lifeless animals are to fight and how little options you have to actually fight them due to that.

    Combat is boring cuz its repetative, you repeat the same actions till it dies.. thats why I've been trying to get you to understand that creatures need multiple different attacks in order to give some variarity so that your not always defending the same way or using the same action to avoid damage, there needs to be a change, so your forced to do something else, make the combat interactive instead of just a spamfest.

    NOBODY wants to play spamfest combat when you just repeat the same thing, adding "hotcue skill spam" does NOT address this core issue.

  5. #25
    As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated.
    With respect; your opinion is rather moot since you haven't played any real combat games like dark souls, or kingdom come.

    By your own admition you don't play combat games, I understand why your not trying to focus on combat when you don't play combat games... however alot of other people DO play combat games, so trying to turn this game into a "noncombat game" like most think WoW to be is a huge leap in the wrong direction.

    WoW is about raiding, drops, big quests, dungeons, guilds ect.... non of this exists in xsyon.... The WoW "combat system" is just a way for people to experience raiding, item drops, big quest, dungeons, guilds ect, its not the main focus of the game, its not good combat, its just the type of combat they used to experience the OTHER GOOD PARTS OF THE GAME that DO NOT EXIST in xsyon.

    So if your just gona clone WoW combat, your gona fail us cuz there won't be any of the rest of the fun stuff in WoW to use that combat on, so nobody is going to be able to ignore how bad the combat is due to enjoying the raiding, dungeon, item drops ect ect cuz there isn't any of that!

    So thats why people are so focused on "broken combat" cuz theres nothing else to do in the game so it sticks out like a sore thumb, cuz theres nothing to make you forget about how bad it is by powering through a quest or a raid or a dungeon or grinding for item drops... again none of this exists in xsyon, so you won't be able to ignore and forget the bad skill spam combat when theres nothing to mask how bad it.

  6. #26
    Like someone spamming the same skills to kill mobs repeatedly trying to spawn a unq item drop on WoW, the fun is "maybe I'll get that item I'm grinding for" not "this combat is great". So your looking at this entire thing wrong, people on WoW are having fun doing the raid, or grinding for the item, not using the type of combat they picked, the combat doesn't make the game fun, what they are using the combat IN ORDER TO DO is what makes the game fun.

    Currently theres nothing to do with combat in xsyon, so you can't use unfun combat and ask people to ignore and overlook it for the other fun parts of the game ~cuz theres nothing fun you can do with this type of combat that will make you overlook the combat... the combat itself needs to be the fun part of the game if you have no way of making them overlook the bad combat while enjoying something else, cuz there isn't anything else in xsyon... so adding skill spam WILL NEVER fix this problem of "combat being broken" due to these points your overlooking; everything outside of combat that makes the combat worth powering through despite it being unfun combat that every other game has moved away from..
    Last edited by Static; 06-13-2020 at 11:43 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    I gotta address this again cuz its amazing to me how out of touch you are with what your player base wants on PvP and why they are quitting due to these features not being in place.
    I do not think that Mount and Blade style of combat is why PVP is not popular. First, PVP is always less popular. Second, the main reason by far is just the lack of support for PVP objectives.
    King of the Hill.
    Ranking Sytem.
    Area Conquest/Control.
    Objective based PVP.

    That's why games like Rust/Conan Exiles etc can get away with pretty basic PVP because it doesn't have to be extremely skillful PVP to have PVPers wanting to play.
    There is also a major limiting factor. PING and Server CPU power. The more you add in where actions are skillful and you need to make choices in a fraction of a second. Which is the style of skillful PVP you are wanting (which I agree is fun), you limit who can play. The server is based in Dallas, TX. Thus you are making anyone outside the USA at a major skillful PVP disadvantage.

    Xsyon has already a major thing that many of the PVPer want. Full Loot. But after that there is zero PVP systems. There isn't even a reason to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Combat is part of the game, yes, but on a PVP server it needs to be more than a back burned after thought, thats what adding skill spam is, a after thought, what someone too lazy to do it properly would do cuz its the easist thing to do, yet the most unfun thing to do. Your creating a easily coded combat system that everybody I know who has complained about combat would NOT enjoy.
    I agree with PVP server back burner. But not because of the combat system of attacks. Oddly enough, you already have directional PVP, no one EVER EVER uses it. The reason is, its not effective because it's too hard to do with any type of lag. Try it. Fight a friend in PVP (test server if you want). Have your friend attack you and you try to parry the attacks. You have to skillfuly figure out which direction they are attacking, then choose that parry direction. You will parry the attack 100%. They will lose the stamina for attacking. Plus they will be stunned for 2s. You have to do this in .9s to 1.6s based on the type of attacks currently in Xsyon. So the system you are asking for is currently (mostly) put into the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    I'll say that again, if you added WoW style combat to the game, it would NOT solve any of the peoples problems that I know of who have quit the game, they would still quit the game with WoW style combat since its not solving their "combat is broken" problem.
    I disagree, a lot of people find combat boring. 1) Creatures are very basic and easy. 2) There is only 1 click attack options. There is no special skills or planning. With the new parry system it helps a little. Dodge is not bad, but gets me dizzy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players, not cuz of a "lack of spamable hotcue skills for extra damage"
    Things like there only being one attack from the creature feels really really bad, focusing on spamable skills for a player BEFORE this would be foolish cuz you would be "solving" a non-problem in response to a real problem thats not being solved; how lifeless animals are to fight and how little options you have to actually fight them due to that.
    We agree here mostly, but you are focusing on "extra damage" if extra damage was the only thing added. I would agree with you.
    But what about options like "Spin Attack" where you can attack in 360 direction all at the same move. Or a "Lunge" attack giving you more reach. Or bleed, snare, other debuffs. I mean I can think of dozens of things outside of just extra damage.

    Why does combat feel broken? I think a big part as you agree is that creatures are just very basic. They swing to attack. Nothing else. Lets give them special skills too. Ones that players can see (like he has added with bears standing up for a special attack).



    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Combat is boring cuz its repetative, you repeat the same actions till it dies.. thats why I've been trying to get you to understand that creatures need multiple different attacks in order to give some variarity so that your not always defending the same way or using the same action to avoid damage, there needs to be a change, so your forced to do something else, make the combat interactive instead of just a spamfest.

    NOBODY wants to play spamfest combat when you just repeat the same thing, adding "hotcue skill spam" does NOT address this core issue.
    Adding hotkeys does address this. It allows for more choice in comabt, it gives effects, it is more interactive. I fully agree the spamfest of combat we have now (or even with the click wait 2 seconds attack of charged combat moves) is very boring.

    Look I can name dozens of games that are high skill and use hotkeys for special attacks. Darkfall Online is likely the most skillful PVP combat I've ever seen. They have hotkeys for special attacks.
    I really think because of ping and CPU server, it's so much better to not worry about tying a combat system to who can react in 100ms or not. The games that use that type of system are not MMO's they are server based games where they highly limit the number of people per server and the servers are regional based.

    Hotkeys does not make a game WOW. WOW is a themepark. It has a lot of rails that force you down a path or story. Xsyon is not like that, it wouldn't be like that even with hotkeys.
    Player building, quests, no classes, massive skill system, no armor sets required to wear for you. Plus many other things. Hotkeys do not make a game WOW clones.
    Xsyon is nothing like WOW.
    That would be like saying WOW has a chat system, so does Xsyon thus it's just like WOW.

    Which BTW WOW is not a bad game. I do not want Xsyon to be a WOW type game.
    Like Xsyon did with color coding items based on rarity. That is a WOW system also. Nothing wrong with using a system that works as long as you don't lose the main direction of a sandbox, player driven content game.

  8. #28
    "Rust/Conan Exiles"

    You think these are combat games? Holy hell, your opinion is so moot cuz you don't play any combat games, I donno why your here talking about combat balance when you DO NOT EVEN PLAY ANY COMBAT GAMES.

    "rust" a melee combat game? LOLOLOL "well he has a rock, and there is a axe and pickaxe in teh game, it must be cutting edge melee combat"

    This is honestly what you think? Give your head a shake.

    You keep echoing this "lagg is the reason we cant make good combat" when xsyon just stated he fixed the damn issue between server and player interactions or at least minimized it to the point where RANGED COMBAT was possible, this means, that the delay your talking about that would make pvp impossible isn't reality, plenty of people are able to play on 90-100 ping, I'm unsure what your talking about.

    If ranged combat is possible, seems obvious that pvp combat is possible too without lagg.

    I got to admit I really dislike reading your point of view..... If you love WoW so much, why are you playing this game instead of WoW? Go play WoW than if its the ultimate game? I WANT SOMETHING BETTER.

    That would be like saying WOW has a chat system, so does Xsyon thus it's just like WOW.
    This entire comment is pretty damn stupid. Text based games have a chat system, so should we reduce xsyon combat to text combat? No? Than stop suggesting that cuz someone use's a chat box that we should use DECADES OLD COMBAT THAT NOBODY LIKES BUT YOU.
    Last edited by Static; 06-13-2020 at 12:19 PM.

  9. #29
    Why does combat feel broken? I think a big part as you agree is that creatures are just very basic. They swing to attack. Nothing else. Lets give them special skills too. Ones that players can see (like he has added with bears standing up for a special attack).
    Are you dense? You think that you can "fix combat" by just giving some spam skills?

    That won't solve a damn thing, combat would not change, you would just have more skills to spam in the already bad system.... How this solves the rest of the HUGE GAPING PROBLEMS by adding spam skills is beyond me, I can't understand your logic at all and I feel like your the reason why this game hasn't evolved in ten years.

    If WoW combat was the way to solve this game's problems, than why didn't it work for any other dead/failed game that tried it?

    Theres DOZENS if not more failed MMO's with this type of combat, what do you think xsyon is going to do better without npcs, dungeons, raids, guild battles or anything else that makes you IGNORE the unfun combat to experience a fun part of the game?

    There isn't any fun parts of teh game in xsyon aside of those you make yourself, so combat itself needs to be fun.

    Dark souls, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

    Mount & blade, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

    Yes, there is other things going on in the game that are fun too, but the MAIN REASON people play these games is FOR THE COMBAT.

    Now am I saying xsyon should be only for the combat? No. I'm saying you have building done already, you have farming done already, you have scavenge done already, there is already multiple other aspects to the game COMPLETED. So its "ALREADY" more than "just a combat game". To say that cuz there is other parts of the game, that you should ignore combat and throw it under the bus cuz its not a main focus feels like a cop out to me "lets not make combat great so people can focus on the other parts of the game" ? is that really your stance? Cuz if it is, your throwing half or more of your pvp population under the bus due to how out of touch you are with what people want on pvp being different than what people want on pve.

    Pvp players play pvp games.

    If you BOTH don't play combat pvp games than you BOTH are NOT the target market, so why argue with me if "I" am the target market since I play pvp and combat focused games?

    If you BOTH don't like combat, you BOTH can play PvE where combat is not a thing. PvP the combat SHOULD be the main focus, cuz anything wrong with combat is going to stick out like a SORE THUMB to any combat/pvp minded players who join pvp server, they are going to have expectations, standards that are not met by the game currently that you seem to be unaware of.
    Last edited by Static; 06-13-2020 at 12:31 PM.

  10. #30
    Something nether of you seem to be aware of is this:

    November 23, 2004

    Thats the date world of warcraft was released.

    That makes this combat system at least 16 years old, older than xsyon even.

    Why model your combat after a 16 year old game that nobody thought the combat was great on to start with?

    Why not model your game after something like mount & blade or dark souls that are LEGENDARY for being extremely good combat, that people are BEGGING the developers to make multi-player.

    You could be feeling a hole in the gaming market that people ACTUALLY want, making a multiplayer game with mount n blade or dark souls type combat, this would be amazing and people would flock to THIS GAME for THAT COMBAT.

    But WoW skillspam? Why would people flock here for that? Why would this be something new worth people coming back for if its a 16+ year old feature?

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