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  1. #1

    06/11/2020 - Feedback Requests - Combat

    This thread is for discussing current combat improvement suggestions.

    Here is what I have so far from the other threads:

    1) Adjust swing power. I did this already and could up the damage a bit more. However, the more I boost swing power damage, the more combat relies on charged attacks and again we get the problem that new players (and a lot of player in general) just are looking to click attack as they do in games they are familiar with.

    2) Remove swing power / charged attacks.

    3) Replace swing power attacks with special attacks from the action bar / hot key. These could be, for example, a slower attack that does double damage.

    From my point of view, the charged attack vs the hot key power attack are very similar. The main differences would be how the action is initiated (through mouse action vs a key) and timing (charged attacks can be done at any time, a power attack should have a cool down like in other games).

    Here are things that I have worked on and plan to release as part of this patch series:

    1) Artisan and Master weapons including bonuses based on specific weapon types such as critical strike and defense (parry) bonuses.

    2) Ranged combat.

    As usual, if you have a suggestion that is similar to something in another game, please list the game or games so that I can potentially check it out directly.

    Note: If I missed anything, please post and I will add it to this top post.

    Note: Please keep suggestions as concise as possible and the arguments to a minimum. It's taking me a long time to go through these threads (and suggestions) to pick out the actual suggestions.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    I agree with moving away from combat being about charged attacks, if you add too much damage to them, they become the only option.

    It also removes the "intense fight" that has been created with quick attack+parry combination and would turn it back into poke style where you try to avoid damage till your charge is full, than release, same as before but most likely abusing the creature turning speed this time instead of the walking backwards like previously.

    I think the combat of having to parry or block, while counter attacking with a fast attack OR taking the risk of using a slow swinging power attack, is the best way to keep loading bars out of combat.

    When I say power attack, I mean a attack that takes twice as long to do the animation, not charge up. So the time from start of swing to end of swing takes twice as long as a regular attack, this would make it so that theres was a larger dodge window, so if you actually hit the slower attack than it would warrant the boost in attack, the reward to the risk.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think if we're making artisan and master weapons they should have the same damage ratio as normal weapons, but add additional effects. I think if they also do additional damage than they would quickly become unbalanced and become the only usable weapons, making lower end players or new players at a massive disadvantage.

    And wow, we are seriously talking about ranged combat right now? Color me completely stoked, I'd love to see some bows in the game, however, without some kind of dodge skills or way to leap or relocate your character, you won't be able to actually point at anything and shoot it alone without it killing you in the process.

    We would need some kind of back quiver and bow slot and a button to switch between melee and ranged weapon sets.

    Keep up the great work man, I'm going to go fight some things on test server to give you some more in depth feedback of the current changes.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    This thread is for discussing current combat improvement suggestions.

    Here is what I have so far from the other threads:

    1) Adjust swing power. I did this already and could up the damage a bit more. However, the more I boost swing power damage, the more combat relies on charged attacks and again we get the problem that new players (and a lot of player in general) just are looking to click attack as they do in games they are familiar with.


    2) Remove swing power / charged attacks.


    3) Replace swing power attacks with special attacks from the action bar / hot key. These could be, for example, a slower attack that does double damage.

    From my point of view, the charged attack vs the hot key power attack are very similar. The main differences would be how the action is initiated (through mouse action vs a key) and timing (charged attacks can be done at any time, a power attack should have a cool down like in other games).
    I think like Static says, lets remove them. Add in special attacks. Special attacks to me are like:
    "Power Attack" = +50% damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing.
    "Snare Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of a normal swing. Gives debuff of -20% movement speed for 10s.
    "Lunge Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing. +100% reach of attack.
    "Bleed Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 15s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. +100% damage of the attack over 10s.
    "Stunning Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. Gives debuff of stunned for 2s.

    These are examples. You would be able to bind them to a hotbar/keyboard. You click the button and the next attack would add that stat/cost/effect to the attack.
    You can even make it limited to some weapons over another. Like a Pick and Blade can do a bleed attack. Shovels/Axes/Clubs can do Stunning attacks. All weapons can do Power attack etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Here are things that I have worked on and plan to release as part of this patch series:

    1) Artisan and Master weapons including bonuses based on specific weapon types such as critical strike and defense (parry) bonuses.

    2) Ranged combat.

    As usual, if you have a suggestion that is similar to something in another game, please list the game or games so that I can potentially check it out directly.

    Note: If I missed anything, please post and I will add it to this top post.

    Note: Please keep suggestions as concise as possible and the arguments to a minimum. It's taking me a long time to go through these threads (and suggestions) to pick out the actual suggestions.

    Thanks!

    Again as Static says, I do not feel like base damage on master/artisan should be increased. This would make balancing much harder.
    As you stated here, I think adding properties that help combat would be better. Attack speed, reach, criticals, defenses, are all good options.

    Ranged Combat is going to be major. Due to the fact that no animal in game has ranged skills/attacks, this will have to be fairly weak to start with I would expect.
    Because this game doesn't have first person targeting options really. I think the best thing to do is simply make ranged combat pretty weak. Allow parry and dodge and blocking (if shields added) to be highly effective vs it. You would not be able to manually dodge attacks. (Sadly I don't see how you could not have it that way without first person, which I can not stress enough is not good for this game please do not force first person for people wanting to do archery)

    Unlike Static I do not believe it's required to have a quiver slot, or a hot key to insta swap between weapons. This is not a fast first person shooter where you jump in the air whip out a bow, change to melee before you land and keep fighting.
    Combat can be fun without the extra speed of pulling out weapons super fast to change them for exact needs of the second.
    I think you can have arrows in your bags or bin, or make a new slot and it will all work. Yes the best would be a cool looking arrow slot. But its not "needed" per say.

  4. #4
    lets remove them. Add in special attacks. Special attacks to me are like:
    "Power Attack" = +50% damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing.
    "Snare Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of a normal swing. Gives debuff of -20% movement speed for 10s.
    "Lunge Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing. +100% reach of attack.
    "Bleed Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 15s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. +100% damage of the attack over 10s.
    "Stunning Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. Gives debuff of stunned for 2s.

    These are examples. You would be able to bind them to a hotbar/keyboard. You click the button and the next attack would add that stat/cost/effect to the attack.
    You can even make it limited to some weapons over another. Like a Pick and Blade can do a bleed attack. Shovels/Axes/Clubs can do Stunning attacks. All weapons can do Power attack etc.
    This game already exists, its called WoW, maybe you'd enjoy playing that instead of turning this game into it?

    I disagree massively with this entire concept, I think it would remove the skill from the game and turn it into skill burst combat, that is really really shitty.

    You ever play league of legends? Do you know what a burst hero is? Its someone who waits for their cooldowns to refresh, then walks up to someone, unloads all their skills than plays safe again till their skills are back up again. Annie for example is known for this cuz if you stack her skills you get a stun on her next skill, letting you easily combo all your skilled on the stunned person.

    I don't want every person in this game to be a burst champion, I think thats horrid and removes any skill aspect from pvp, makes it become purely who can burst skill with higher stats.

    I understand why DDT wants this, he would be a god and nobody could stand verse him, I think this is a horrid way to design a game.

    I think it should be skill based so that if someone actually fights him they would have a fair chance instead of losing purely cuz of lower stats.

    DDT's suggestions are a large step in the wrong direction, his suggestion is what MMO's used to be like a decade or longer ago, why bring us back into the past of gaming that everybody has evolved away from and expects better than?

    Its a old and outdated concept to make skill spam number bar for combat.

    It would be NEW AND INNOVATIVE if we continued to support the multi-directional twitch combat that everybody who actually plays pvp games loves as a unquie thing in this game that COULD be amazing if properly optimized.

    I know of ONE other game that has been able to pull off twitch combat like this properly, kingdom come deliverance, it is by far, one of the best games out there when it comes to combat and xsyon is like a lower graphics version of it.. So it really makes me want to see things skill based, since in kingdom come deliverance, at the VERY START OF THE GAME your town gets raided and burned, your supposed to flee and run cuz they have armor (while you have none) and have way stronger swords than you, stronger stats, everything, its a unfair fight... However, a large majority of good players on their 2nd time around they fight the first guy and due to the skill, they are able to kill him with inferior equipment and stats purely due to out skilling them... I've watched a guy who was "extremely skilled" than take that equipment and slaughter all the guys coming to raid the city trying to work verse the story that says the city should be burned by them when you retreat.... The guy killed dozens of them due to having crazy good skill level.... That is amazing and should be the goal of every pvp based game that aims to be balanced.

    No game was ever balanced by letting the guys with highest stats instant kill everybody else, but thats your suggestion, give additional damage in burst to people with already way higher damage than everybody else, its bad suggestion imo.

  5. #5
    I think combat should be balanced to give the weakest person the largest chance, not give the strongest people a even bigger advantage.

    Parry changes support this mentality by giving the defender the ability to hit recover the attacker to slow them down or give you a chance to make a action.

    We shouldn't be making it easier for super strong aggressive people to kill weak people, we should be making it easier for weaker people to defend themselves from much stronger people, maybe not win, but being able to defend themselves or even hold them off if they had enough skill would be huge.

  6. #6
    Unlike Static I do not believe it's required to have a quiver slot, or a hot key to insta swap between weapons. This is not a fast first person shooter where you jump in the air whip out a bow, change to melee before you land and keep fighting.
    Combat can be fun without the extra speed of pulling out weapons super fast to change them for exact needs of the second.
    I think you can have arrows in your bags or bin, or make a new slot and it will all work. Yes the best would be a cool looking arrow slot. But its not "needed" per say.
    Some kind of weapon swapping button IS 100% required if your going to have a ranged weapon.

    The bullshit line about it "not being a first person shooter" is not addressing this core issue, theres no time in combat to open your inv and manually swap weapons.

    "extra speed of pulling out weapons super fast to change them for exact needs of the second" Who is saying this aside of you? I don't mind if it takes a sec to do the swap, as long as you can still continue to move while doing it.

    Ranged is not going to be anywhere near as powerful as you seem to think, since if the creature runs at you after the first arrow, than you have maybe another shot before it gets to you and at that point you need melee weapons.

    Lets give another situation, your running after say a deer or a bear that has ran away from you, so you swap to your bow and give chase, hitting it with a arrow and it decides to turn around and fight you... if theres no swap button you could die very easily in this situation if the bear turns around and starts attacking you with your bow out.

    Again you can't look at the bear and back up at the same time, the bear runs faster than you can walk backwards, so you can't just keep shooting.

    You can't really sprint out of the way, turn around, shoot, than sprint away again, shoot again cuz it would burn out your stamina so quickly that you would get caught pretty dang quick due to lack of stamina.

    Really the biggest thing that "i" see ranged combat being good for is mainly new players so they can join the hunt of larger "boss foes" without walking up right next to them into 1hit range. I don't think bows should do alot of damage, but I also think it should be boosted by dex just like str boosts weapon damage.
    Last edited by Static; 06-11-2020 at 03:12 PM.

  7. #7
    My biggest issue with combat atm is that holding parry up for infinity time still gives the hit recovery every time to enemy creatures.

    This does not feel right.

    I feel that if you hold it up for longer than 2 sec it shouldn't give the hit recovery action anymore and should instead be blocking, since your holding it up to block.

    I understand it would cost money to pay for graphics ect to add shields for proper blocking, but weapon blocking is still a thing so we could have the blocking feature supported from weapons without shields and possibly add shields later if theres budget for it.

    A 2nd idea may be to automatically release parry after the attack hits the parry ~ this may be the best solution since if you suscessfully parry and it auto releases your parry, than you wouldn't be able to hold it beyond that for a 2nd block/parry... This sounds like the best option to me.
    Last edited by Static; 06-11-2020 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    This game already exists, its called WoW, maybe you'd enjoy playing that instead of turning this game into it?

    I disagree massively with this entire concept, I think it would remove the skill from the game and turn it into skill burst combat, that is really really shitty.

    I understand why DDT wants this, he would be a god and nobody could stand verse him, I think this is a horrid way to design a game.

    I think it should be skill based so that if someone actually fights him they would have a fair chance instead of losing purely cuz of lower stats.

    DDT's suggestions are a large step in the wrong direction, his suggestion is what MMO's used to be like a decade or longer ago, why bring us back into the past of gaming that everybody has evolved away from and expects better than?

    Its a old and outdated concept to make skill spam number bar for combat.

    It would be NEW AND INNOVATIVE if we continued to support the multi-directional twitch combat that everybody who actually plays pvp games loves as a unquie thing in this game that COULD be amazing if properly optimized.

    I know of ONE other game that has been able to pull off twitch combat like this properly, kingdom come deliverance, it is by far, one of the best games out there when it comes to combat and xsyon is like a lower graphics version of it.. So it really makes me want to see things skill based, since in kingdom come deliverance, at the VERY START OF THE GAME your town gets raided and burned, your supposed to flee and run cuz they have armor (while you have none) and have way stronger swords than you, stronger stats, everything, its a unfair fight... However, a large majority of good players on their 2nd time around they fight the first guy and due to the skill, they are able to kill him with inferior equipment and stats purely due to out skilling them... I've watched a guy who was "extremely skilled" than take that equipment and slaughter all the guys coming to raid the city trying to work verse the story that says the city should be burned by them when you retreat.... The guy killed dozens of them due to having crazy good skill level.... That is amazing and should be the goal of every pvp based game that aims to be balanced.

    No game was ever balanced by letting the guys with highest stats instant kill everybody else, but thats your suggestion, give additional damage in burst to people with already way higher damage than everybody else, its bad suggestion imo.

    I understand you would disagree. These are my opinions. I do not think you need every system in the game to be "NEW and INNOVATIVE"
    Chat systems have been around for 20+ years. You don't need to make them new and innovative. Pick a good chat system and put it in place.

    The main thing about Xsyon is the building system, crafting system, and player made questing systems. You don't need every system to be special.
    WOW is many parts of a game. WOW has many things this game does not have. WOW has a chat system. Does that mean this game is going to be WOW or Themepark because someone suggests a chat that is more like WOW? No.

    Having a hotbar with skills on a cooldown is pretty normal. I think it works well for MMOs.
    The system of combat you are talking about "multi-directional twitch combat" has been done before also in MMOs. I've played games like Darkfall.
    The problem comes down to PING and CPU of the server. Both of which will be issues on this game. I do not see people playing Xsyon for the twitch based combat. They come here for the creative systems Xsyon has put in place. No need to make it very hard or near impossible for people to do combat. It's already pretty hard Xsyon is wanting to make it easier not harder to learn.

    Here we go with "DDT wants to be a GOD" wow, what more do I have to do? I've already deleted my toon, and my whole base. When is it going to end? My suggestions are not for me to become more powerful. I want to see Xsyon be better.

    My suggestion is not people insta skill other people, its about having more fun in combat than standing close doing spins around a target and left/right clicking over and over.
    I also dont want to have twitch based combat so 1% of the people that play can have fun in combat, and then everyone else either hate combat because its too hard, or have massive ping issues that combat is not fun.

    Twitch based combat BTW is not new or innovative. Its been done for a long time. They call them FPS. Or games like Fortnight.


    My last post directing at this to you. The rest of my posts will solely be my opinion on what I believe should be.
    Can you please stop trying to attack me and focus on the topic.


    TLDR
    Focus on the topic, stop attacking me

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    My biggest issue with combat atm is that holding parry up for infinity time still gives the hit recovery every time to enemy creatures.

    This does not feel right.

    I feel that if you hold it up for longer than 2 sec it shouldn't give the hit recovery action anymore and should instead be blocking, since your holding it up to block.

    I understand it would cost money to pay for graphics ect to add shields for proper blocking, but weapon blocking is still a thing so we could have the blocking feature supported from weapons without shields and possibly add shields later if theres budget for it.

    A 2nd idea may be to automatically release parry after the attack hits the parry ~ this may be the best solution since if you suscessfully parry and it auto releases your parry, than you wouldn't be able to hold it beyond that for a 2nd block/parry... This sounds like the best option to me.
    I agree with all this.

    You don't even need to add a skill (blocking) to the game. Just simply let the parry drop after being hit. You can put it right back up again if you want. I also think there should be a timeout on how long you can hold it up. (4s or so) or at least make it cost stamina.

  10. #10
    "I understand you would disagree. These are my opinions. I do not think you need every system in the game to be "NEW and INNOVATIVE"
    Chat systems have been around for 20+ years. You don't need to make them new and innovative. Pick a good chat system and put it in place."
    This whole comment is a strawman. "oh you use chat, why not use outdated mmo features nobody wants to use anymore?"

    Like you see how many people where pissed off about when they found out elder scrolls online was just a wow clone with the type of combat your suggesting? If a HUGELY POPULAR FRANCHISE like the elder scrolls can piss off half their player base into not playing it due to that, than I don't think its a feature we should be adding to this game cuz nobody wants it in gaming today but you.

    Its like saying "why don't we go back to turn based combat based off dice rolls".... cuz its boring combat we've long moved away from outside of boardgames.

    The problem comes down to PING and CPU of the server. Both of which will be issues on this game. I do not see people playing Xsyon for the twitch based combat. They come here for the creative systems Xsyon has put in place. No need to make it very hard or near impossible for people to do combat. It's already pretty hard Xsyon is wanting to make it easier not harder to learn.
    Another strawman. The ping/cpu is fine, jordi fixed the problems that caused desync of players/server/each other that prevented ranged combat by rewriting the creature migration, so this problem has been "fixed" and I've told you this twice already, making this the 3d time so you already know better.

    You see MEEEEE playing xsyon for twitch combat, where have you even been? WE come up with some cool ideas and you come crawling back to derail everybody and change the direction of the game? I mean you've had 10 years to suggest things, maybe give some other people priority to try something else cuz obviously what you think hasn't helped the game in the past decade.

    "They come here for the creative systems Xsyon has put in place." right alot of people want combat and raiding, two things that are in short supply in this game so I'm heavily advocating for ways to increase player interactions and give players areas to raid. One of those systems is the combat system, thats the directional twitch combat, its great and not many games have it, I donno why you don't think it is.

    Who said anything about making it impossible to do combat? Stop strawmanning me, I never said this. By not having a bunch of keys to smash to give you increased damage, it doesn't make combat "impossible" your being dramatic and untruthful here.

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