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  1. #11
    Universally I think its better to balance by increasing health than increasing damage.

    This is going to be twice as true for "boss fight mutants" otherwise its just going to be a bunch of people running away from it cuz it does too much damage.

    I don't think 1,000-2,000hp is a unreasonable amount of health if the damage of the creature isn't also unreasonable.

    Like a max regular bear I don't think should do anymore than 40 damage, thats enough to 2-3 hit most people you would expect to solo it, so fighting it in pairs would be smart for alot of people still.

    At this damage point you leave the ability to have a +25% damage mutant, that has massively more health.

    So lets roll through some base creature rates and than turn them into mutants.

    Hamster 15-30hp 1-3 damage
    Chicken 15-30hp 1-3 damage
    Douglas Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage
    Ground Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage
    Rabbit 30-60hps 3-6 damage
    Rat 40-70hps 4-7 damage
    Marmot 45-85hps 5-10 damage
    Pine Marten 55-100hps 6-12 damage
    Cats 60-120hps 6-14 damage
    Dogs 70-150hps 7-16 damage
    Raccoon 85-180hps 10-18 damage
    Mule Deer 100-400hps 12-30 damage

    So this means the weakest mule deer is going to be as strong as a max pine martin. This also means that the weakest dog at 70hp is as strong as a max rat at 70hp, they both have 12 damage and same hps.

    I think "THIS" type of balancing would really help new players estimate what they are actually fighting, they can look at their health and know "okay this is roughly how strong its going to be" regardless of what they are fighting.

    Now these last two are a bit of a different subject.

    Coyote
    Bear

    I think coyote should be a stronger version of a dog AND that the raccoon should be WEAKER than the dog. I've seen alot of raccoons but I've never seen one bigger than a bluenose pitbull (that yours is modeled after).

    So I think the tiers should look more like this with my proposed strength priority change;

    Cats 60-120hps 6-14 damage
    Raccoon 70-150hps 7-16 damage
    Dogs 85-180hps 10-18 damage
    Coyote 95-300hps 12-24 damage
    Mule Deer 110-400hps 13-30 damage
    Bears 150-500hps 16-40 damage

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Universally I think its better to balance by increasing health than increasing damage.

    This is going to be twice as true for "boss fight mutants" otherwise its just going to be a bunch of people running away from it cuz it does too much damage.

    I don't think 1,000-2,000hp is a unreasonable amount of health if the damage of the creature isn't also unreasonable.
    I totally agree with this. As I was saying before you are pretty much hard capped vets to be 350~ HP.
    Making mutants do too much damage will make fights near impossible. Increasing their HP is the way to go.

    I think 1k to 2k is low end for what will be needed at the current player damage levels to be required for group combat. I would say more likely 5k to 7k. This is assuming you want a group of vets to kill it.

    1k to 2k was already able to be done before by 1 vet without backing up. So by making player damage higher, adding in both parry and dodge options, will only mean that the top end "group" fighting mutants will need to be very high HP.

  3. #13
    So lets make some mutants off these values.

    The goal should NOT be that they do so much damage that you cannot fight them.

    If you want them to be a "boss" it needs to be a marathon, as in, they need to have large amounts of health and a lower to medium amount of damage, they should NOT be one hitting people or doing so much damage that your unable to reduce their hps or actually fight them.

    The "boss" version should be a increased HEALTH version but have close or slightly more damage, the massive amounts more health means you take more damage across the course of the fight, damage over time, damage per second increases due to more seconds in combat due to the creature having more health.

    So I strongly feel having 0.20 0.40 0.60 and even possibly 0.80 power mutants is counter productive since these should be LEGENDARY creatures.... there shouldn't be 40hp hunchback coyote pups or it defeats the whole purpose of mutants.

    I totally get the need for this for "regular" creatures, but whats the point of this for mutants? Your just creating weaker boss versions and I dont think thats good.

    I think the mutants need to go back to the way they used to be, or what I was told it used to be.... I thought it used to be that a maxed age creature would go into the mist and turn into a mutant... I think thats a great concept.

    This way you wouldn't have any low level mutants cuz the creature would get up to 1.00 first, than turn into a mutant so theres only 1.00 mutants going around, every mutant would be a boss than like your intending them to be.

    The below balance numbers are for the current system of pups to adult mutants, altho I feel as if pups and non adult mutants shouldnt exist if the point is to make them boss's, I think they should only have the max values, but I have included possible min values too.

    You could limit the amount of each mutant creature type as a way to insure that there doesn't become a overload of mutants nobody can kill.

    ~Hamster 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make the hamster ALOT larger, the size of a racoon should be good.]

    ~Chicken 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make it 50% larger than max size currently since its decent sized already.]

    ~Douglas Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

    ~Ground Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

    ~Rabbit 30-60hps 3-6 damage [increase damage to 8-16, health to 900-1500, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

    ~Rat 40-70hps 4-7 damage [increase damage to 9-18, health 1200-1700, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

    ~Marmot 45-85hps 5-10 damage [increase damage to 10-20, health to 1500-2000, increase speed/attack rate, they are already decent sized, possibly double this size.]

    ~Pine Marten 55-100hps 6-12 damage [increase damage to 11-22, health to 1700-2200, increase speed/attack rate, they are decent sized as is, could increase size by 50%]

    ~Cats 60-120hps 6-14 damage [do mutant cats exist?]

    Raccoon 70-150hps 7-16 damage [increase damage to 12-24, health to 1900-2400

    Dogs 85-180hps 10-18 damage [is there dog mutants?]

    Coyote 95-300hps 12-24 damage [increase damage to 16-30, health to 2100-2600, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

    Mule Deer 110-400hps 13-30 damage [increase damage to 22-40, health to 2300-2800, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

    Bears 150-500hps 16-40 damage [ increase damage to 27-50, health to 2500-3000, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]
    Last edited by Static; 06-11-2020 at 05:35 PM.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    I totally agree with this. As I was saying before you are pretty much hard capped vets to be 350~ HP.
    Making mutants do too much damage will make fights near impossible. Increasing their HP is the way to go.

    I think 1k to 2k is low end for what will be needed at the current player damage levels to be required for group combat. I would say more likely 5k to 7k. This is assuming you want a group of vets to kill it.

    1k to 2k was already able to be done before by 1 vet without backing up. So by making player damage higher, adding in both parry and dodge options, will only mean that the top end "group" fighting mutants will need to be very high HP.
    I think what I've put down is a good starting point for balanace, if we find that people are doing what you claim and people are grouping to fight high hp guys than we can re-look at the health and add more, but I feel the damage ratios are good where they are at.

  5. #15
    If mutants truely are going to be a "boss" than I don't think they should aggro at all, they should 100% ignore you unless you attack them, otherwise your creating something people won't be able to build anywhere near.

    I think they should only attack you if you attack them, cuz if your stupid enough to attack them than you should prob know what your doing enough to expect it to attack you... where I feel a 50 damage bear could easily 1-2 hit most of the people you think should be able to solo most of the game.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    I think what I've put down is a good starting point for balanace, if we find that people are doing what you claim and people are grouping to fight high hp guys than we can re-look at the health and add more, but I feel the damage ratios are good where they are at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    If mutants truely are going to be a "boss" than I don't think they should aggro at all, they should 100% ignore you unless you attack them, otherwise your creating something people won't be able to build anywhere near.

    I think they should only attack you if you attack them, cuz if your stupid enough to attack them than you should prob know what your doing enough to expect it to attack you... where I feel a 50 damage bear could easily 1-2 hit most of the people you think should be able to solo most of the game.
    Well he wants them to be group. Thus if you have not balanced them for group, you have not balanced them for what he wants. I'm only giving the opinion of IF you do want them for a group (as stated at the top), then you need to give them a lot more than 1 or 2k HP because those will be solo'd by vets. As they already were solo'd by vets.

    The biggest key to me, is not make the damage so high that it's 2 or 3 shotting vets because even in a group you would not be able to kill that type of mob. As you said it's much better to just increase HP of the mutants.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    So lets make some mutants off these values.

    The goal should NOT be that they do so much damage that you cannot fight them.

    If you want them to be a "boss" it needs to be a marathon, as in, they need to have large amounts of health and a lower to medium amount of damage, they should NOT be one hitting people or doing so much damage that your unable to reduce their hps or actually fight them.

    The "boss" version should be a increased HEALTH version but have close or slightly more damage, the massive amounts more health means you take more damage across the course of the fight, damage over time, damage per second increases due to more seconds in combat due to the creature having more health.

    So I strongly feel having 0.20 0.40 0.60 and even possibly 0.80 power mutants is counter productive since these should be LEGENDARY creatures.... there shouldn't be 40hp hunchback coyote pups or it defeats the whole purpose of mutants.

    I totally get the need for this for "regular" creatures, but whats the point of this for mutants? Your just creating weaker boss versions and I dont think thats good.

    I think the mutants need to go back to the way they used to be, or what I was told it used to be.... I thought it used to be that a maxed age creature would go into the mist and turn into a mutant... I think thats a great concept.

    This way you wouldn't have any low level mutants cuz the creature would get up to 1.00 first, than turn into a mutant so theres only 1.00 mutants going around, every mutant would be a boss than like your intending them to be.

    The below balance numbers are for the current system of pups to adult mutants, altho I feel as if pups and non adult mutants shouldnt exist if the point is to make them boss's, I think they should only have the max values, but I have included possible min values too.

    You could limit the amount of each mutant creature type as a way to insure that there doesn't become a overload of mutants nobody can kill.

    ~Hamster 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make the hamster ALOT larger, the size of a racoon should be good.]

    ~Chicken 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make it 50% larger than max size currently since its decent sized already.]

    ~Douglas Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

    ~Ground Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

    ~Rabbit 30-60hps 3-6 damage [increase damage to 8-16, health to 900-1500, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

    ~Rat 40-70hps 4-7 damage [increase damage to 9-18, health 1200-1700, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

    ~Marmot 45-85hps 5-10 damage [increase damage to 10-20, health to 1500-2000, increase speed/attack rate, they are already decent sized, possibly double this size.]

    ~Pine Marten 55-100hps 6-12 damage [increase damage to 11-22, health to 1700-2200, increase speed/attack rate, they are decent sized as is, could increase size by 50%]

    ~Cats 60-120hps 6-14 damage [do mutant cats exist?]

    Raccoon 70-150hps 7-16 damage [increase damage to 12-24, health to 1900-2400

    Dogs 85-180hps 10-18 damage [is there dog mutants?]

    Coyote 95-300hps 12-24 damage [increase damage to 16-30, health to 2100-2600, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

    Mule Deer 110-400hps 13-30 damage [increase damage to 22-40, health to 2300-2800, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

    Bears 150-500hps 16-40 damage [ increase damage to 27-50, health to 2500-3000, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]


    This looks like a great starting point to me.

    Also of note, very large animals like large bears and large mutant bears mostly, have a funky hitbox, so you will need to increase their hitbox a good bit as you make them bigger.

  8. #18
    Comments so far as I'm reading the feedback:

    1) Hamsters and Chickens are equivalent in power. The Squirrels are equivalent. Marmots and Pine Martens are equivalent. I updated the first post to reflect that.

    2) I added the various age and power ranks to the first post. Age and power are separate. A creature can be an Adolescent that has fought a lot and has a lot of power, or can be an Ancient creature that has earned no combat power.

    3) All creatures currently attack at a rate of 1.5 seconds. That can be used to determine FPS. I can adjust the attack rate of individual creatures if so desired. I welcome feedback on that.

    4) Creature life and damage are currently based on formulas. Most creatures are basically set up like this:

    - in child phase life can double based on age and double again based on combat power
    - the youngest adult creature starts at 4 times the minimum life
    - in adult phase life can double based on age and increase 1.5 times more based on combat power
    - overall the max power adult's life would thus be 12 times the youngest baby

    - attack power follows a typical progression but the difference between minimum and max damage is around 8 to 10 times.

    - Both of these depend on the creature types.

    5) I did deliberately set up creatures so that the weakest one type may be weaker than the toughest of a 'lesser' type. For example an ancient, legendary hamster would be more formidable than a baby marmot with no combat experience.

    The reasoning behind this is that the 'normal' creatures in Xsyon are not supposed to be entirely normal, hence the unrealistically large sizes on legendary and adult animals.

    6) Regarding mutants - any age creature can go into the mist and become a mutant. It's always been that way. I don't intend all mutants to be boss creatures, just the adults and especially the legendary ancient ones should require groups to take down.

    I think it will be cool to have some baby mutants that players can have as pets.

    7) Regarding large creature hit boxes. The hit boxes scale linearly as the creature scales so it's strange that it wouldn't match a larger creature. I will check it out.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Overall, it sounds like you guys are asking for much less of a difference between a newborn baby critter and a max legendary one for normal creatures. I think a double increase is too little and would make 'ancient legendary' small creatures seem weak.

    The minimum power child is supposed to be a newborn that is quite weak.

    I think a 2 to 4 times increase in damage and 5 times increase in hp (maybe more) would be better. The current 10 to 12 times increase I guess is too much.

    For mutants you guys are asking for a 2 to 4 times damage increase, speed increases and up to a 30 times life increase. That's quite a difference in life but I can try something like that and we'll see.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Questions:

    1) Do you guys think that player damage is too much? It scales up a lot compared to creatures because of all the factors involved (strength, skill, weapon quality, skill power).

    2) How many hits from a veteran player do you think an ancient legendary mutant bear should be able to take? Around 100 or so attacks? More?

    I will update the creature stats based on this feedback and will post again when a new build is ready.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Note: I will be switching the data on the Test Server between the Peace and War Server data sets as we have players from both servers that want to test on their main toons.

  9. #19
    I've updated the Test Server with stats similar to what was suggested.

    In general, I took the suggested values for the range between the weakest adult and the most powerful, ancient adult for each creature, with lower values for the baby creatures. So the range in values from the weakest baby to the most powerful adult are more around 2-3 times for damage and 4-5 times for life.

    Mutant life, especially for the legendary ancients, I set very high. Maybe too high. We'll see.

    I think the rest makes pretty good sense but as usual I am open to further feedback.

    I haven't adjusted attack speeds but I will do that next.

    Thanks!

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    I've updated the Test Server with stats similar to what was suggested.

    In general, I took the suggested values for the range between the weakest adult and the most powerful, ancient adult for each creature, with lower values for the baby creatures. So the range in values from the weakest baby to the most powerful adult are more around 2-3 times for damage and 4-5 times for life.

    Mutant life, especially for the legendary ancients, I set very high. Maybe too high. We'll see.

    I think the rest makes pretty good sense but as usual I am open to further feedback.

    I haven't adjusted attack speeds but I will do that next.

    Thanks!
    Running around and looking at the HP of animals (normal) they look great.
    Mutants look good for what you wanted high HP for groups of medium to max skill to kill.
    (I do want to put a word of warning here, there are not a lot of current group hunting so this will seem very rare unless people change to wanting to go out in groups) My suggestion is because of this, mutants should give more resources (especially hides) this will encourage groups to want to hunt them.

    I believe that mutants because of how hard they are and will be requiring groups should get 1.25 x resources per age level and 1.25 x per power level.

    This would make examples.
    Child Rookie give 1.5 x resources.
    Child Lessor give 1.75 x resources.
    Adult Greater give 3 x resources.
    Ancient Legendary give 4 x resources.


    Damage looks pretty good to maybe a bit to high on all the animals I see (including mutants) I'm wearing 100QL armor.

    I believe another factor here should likely be instead of lowering damage a bit, I think a better option is increase the effect of armors (player).

    This looks really good. I do believe ALL mutants need to be increased in size. They are not big enough for their power/HP and players need to be able to see this is not just a meek rat.
    Last edited by MrDDT; 06-12-2020 at 08:12 AM.

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