06/11/2020 - Feedback Request - Creature Balance - Test Server

[Static]

So lets make some mutants off these values.

The goal should NOT be that they do so much damage that you cannot fight them.

If you want them to be a "boss" it needs to be a marathon, as in, they need to have large amounts of health and a lower to medium amount of damage, they should NOT be one hitting people or doing so much damage that your unable to reduce their hps or actually fight them.

The "boss" version should be a increased HEALTH version but have close or slightly more damage, the massive amounts more health means you take more damage across the course of the fight, damage over time, damage per second increases due to more seconds in combat due to the creature having more health.

So I strongly feel having 0.20 0.40 0.60 and even possibly 0.80 power mutants is counter productive since these should be LEGENDARY creatures.... there shouldn't be 40hp hunchback coyote pups or it defeats the whole purpose of mutants.

I totally get the need for this for "regular" creatures, but whats the point of this for mutants? Your just creating weaker boss versions and I dont think thats good.

I think the mutants need to go back to the way they used to be, or what I was told it used to be.... I thought it used to be that a maxed age creature would go into the mist and turn into a mutant... I think thats a great concept.

This way you wouldn't have any low level mutants cuz the creature would get up to 1.00 first, than turn into a mutant so theres only 1.00 mutants going around, every mutant would be a boss than like your intending them to be.

The below balance numbers are for the current system of pups to adult mutants, altho I feel as if pups and non adult mutants shouldnt exist if the point is to make them boss's, I think they should only have the max values, but I have included possible min values too.

You could limit the amount of each mutant creature type as a way to insure that there doesn't become a overload of mutants nobody can kill.

~Hamster 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make the hamster ALOT larger, the size of a racoon should be good.]

~Chicken 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make it 50% larger than max size currently since its decent sized already.]

~Douglas Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

~Ground Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

~Rabbit 30-60hps 3-6 damage [increase damage to 8-16, health to 900-1500, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

~Rat 40-70hps 4-7 damage [increase damage to 9-18, health 1200-1700, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

~Marmot 45-85hps 5-10 damage [increase damage to 10-20, health to 1500-2000, increase speed/attack rate, they are already decent sized, possibly double this size.]

~Pine Marten 55-100hps 6-12 damage [increase damage to 11-22, health to 1700-2200, increase speed/attack rate, they are decent sized as is, could increase size by 50%]

~Cats 60-120hps 6-14 damage [do mutant cats exist?]

Raccoon 70-150hps 7-16 damage [increase damage to 12-24, health to 1900-2400

Dogs 85-180hps 10-18 damage [is there dog mutants?]

Coyote 95-300hps 12-24 damage [increase damage to 16-30, health to 2100-2600, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

Mule Deer 110-400hps 13-30 damage [increase damage to 22-40, health to 2300-2800, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

Bears 150-500hps 16-40 damage [ increase damage to 27-50, health to 2500-3000, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

[MrDDT]

So lets make some mutants off these values.

The goal should NOT be that they do so much damage that you cannot fight them.

If you want them to be a "boss" it needs to be a marathon, as in, they need to have large amounts of health and a lower to medium amount of damage, they should NOT be one hitting people or doing so much damage that your unable to reduce their hps or actually fight them.

The "boss" version should be a increased HEALTH version but have close or slightly more damage, the massive amounts more health means you take more damage across the course of the fight, damage over time, damage per second increases due to more seconds in combat due to the creature having more health.

So I strongly feel having 0.20 0.40 0.60 and even possibly 0.80 power mutants is counter productive since these should be LEGENDARY creatures.... there shouldn't be 40hp hunchback coyote pups or it defeats the whole purpose of mutants.

I totally get the need for this for "regular" creatures, but whats the point of this for mutants? Your just creating weaker boss versions and I dont think thats good.

I think the mutants need to go back to the way they used to be, or what I was told it used to be.... I thought it used to be that a maxed age creature would go into the mist and turn into a mutant... I think thats a great concept.

This way you wouldn't have any low level mutants cuz the creature would get up to 1.00 first, than turn into a mutant so theres only 1.00 mutants going around, every mutant would be a boss than like your intending them to be.

The below balance numbers are for the current system of pups to adult mutants, altho I feel as if pups and non adult mutants shouldnt exist if the point is to make them boss's, I think they should only have the max values, but I have included possible min values too.

You could limit the amount of each mutant creature type as a way to insure that there doesn't become a overload of mutants nobody can kill.

~Hamster 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make the hamster ALOT larger, the size of a racoon should be good.]

~Chicken 15-30hp 1-3 damage [increase damage to 6-12, health to 500-800, increase speed/attack rate, make it 50% larger than max size currently since its decent sized already.]

~Douglas Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

~Ground Squirrel 20-40hp 1-5 damage [increase damage to 7-14, health to 700-1200, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear.]

~Rabbit 30-60hps 3-6 damage [increase damage to 8-16, health to 900-1500, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

~Rat 40-70hps 4-7 damage [increase damage to 9-18, health 1200-1700, increase speed/attack rate, make them the size of a medium sized bear]

~Marmot 45-85hps 5-10 damage [increase damage to 10-20, health to 1500-2000, increase speed/attack rate, they are already decent sized, possibly double this size.]

~Pine Marten 55-100hps 6-12 damage [increase damage to 11-22, health to 1700-2200, increase speed/attack rate, they are decent sized as is, could increase size by 50%]

~Cats 60-120hps 6-14 damage [do mutant cats exist?]

Raccoon 70-150hps 7-16 damage [increase damage to 12-24, health to 1900-2400

Dogs 85-180hps 10-18 damage [is there dog mutants?]

Coyote 95-300hps 12-24 damage [increase damage to 16-30, health to 2100-2600, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

Mule Deer 110-400hps 13-30 damage [increase damage to 22-40, health to 2300-2800, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

Bears 150-500hps 16-40 damage [ increase damage to 27-50, health to 2500-3000, leave attack/speed alone as is, make them 50% larger]

This looks like a great starting point to me.

Also of note, very large animals like large bears and large mutant bears mostly, have a funky hitbox, so you will need to increase their hitbox a good bit as you make them bigger.

[Static]

If mutants truely are going to be a "boss" than I don't think they should aggro at all, they should 100% ignore you unless you attack them, otherwise your creating something people won't be able to build anywhere near.

I think they should only attack you if you attack them, cuz if your stupid enough to attack them than you should prob know what your doing enough to expect it to attack you... where I feel a 50 damage bear could easily 1-2 hit most of the people you think should be able to solo most of the game.

[MrDDT]

I think what I've put down is a good starting point for balanace, if we find that people are doing what you claim and people are grouping to fight high hp guys than we can re-look at the health and add more, but I feel the damage ratios are good where they are at.

If mutants truely are going to be a "boss" than I don't think they should aggro at all, they should 100% ignore you unless you attack them, otherwise your creating something people won't be able to build anywhere near.

I think they should only attack you if you attack them, cuz if your stupid enough to attack them than you should prob know what your doing enough to expect it to attack you... where I feel a 50 damage bear could easily 1-2 hit most of the people you think should be able to solo most of the game.

Well he wants them to be group. Thus if you have not balanced them for group, you have not balanced them for what he wants. I'm only giving the opinion of IF you do want them for a group (as stated at the top), then you need to give them a lot more than 1 or 2k HP because those will be solo'd by vets. As they already were solo'd by vets.

The biggest key to me, is not make the damage so high that it's 2 or 3 shotting vets because even in a group you would not be able to kill that type of mob. As you said it's much better to just increase HP of the mutants.

[Static]

I'm thinking about what I said a bit more.

Hamster
Chicken
Douglas Squirrel
Ground Squirrel

If this is the order of power, than 8.6 dmg on a ground squirrel makes a little more sense.... However I don't think there should be huge differences between these 4 types.

So instead of making these 4 different tiers, maybe split it into two tiers?

So hamster and chicken could share same lower values while both squirrel types could share same values.

If both squirrels had about half the attack, but same life (even a lil more 40-45 for fully grown) than I would feel that is balanaced.

Chickens and hamsters obviously are cool with being so weak they cant defend themselves.

I just fought a "ancient lesser mule deer doe" its a 0.40 power deer.

He dealt 15.12 damage with my armor on (103-106q not great), 24.32 damage without armor

I dealt 57.92 damage with charge attack to the front, 74.03 damage with charge attack to the back, this doesn't feel right, it feels overpowered.

I dealt 29.68 damage with a regular quick attack, meaning, two quick attacks would do more damage than a single charge attack. I used my "xmas shovel" since most people trying to solo the last 3 tiers (deer/coyte/beer) should have endgame equipment so it should be balanced towards that and not my weak noob knife.

I "think" he had 260hps however I cannot see since hes dead on the ground.

This all feels good for a deer, however may be a lil much as a 0.40 if a 0.8 to 1.00 does anymore than 45-50 damage its going to be too powerful for the class of people your trying to get to solo these to actually be able to solo these.

If a deer is supposed to be weaker than a coyote, than again I'd think the damage of the mule deers could come down a little, while leaving their health up there.

You want the high health to make the fight last longer, but if their damage is also high, than its more damage per second across the entire fight. So think about how long the fight should last by hp, than, how much damage the creature is expected to do to the player in that time.

[Static]

rookie male bunny 9hps

obviously way too low.

adolsent ragdoll cat 85hps did 15.46 damage to me 0.60 power.

I think all cats should universally have the same stats so people know what to expect out of that tier, since if someone could barely kill the 85hp / 10dmg cat than figured they could take this one, would die cuz its doing 50% more damage than the other cat, this does not seem balanced.

upon fighting this cat however, I do feel 15 damage is not bad verse someone whos new/naked, however I feel this should be the max end of the damage instead of the middle tier.

[Xsyon]

Comments so far as I'm reading the feedback:

1) Hamsters and Chickens are equivalent in power. The Squirrels are equivalent. Marmots and Pine Martens are equivalent. I updated the first post to reflect that.

2) I added the various age and power ranks to the first post. Age and power are separate. A creature can be an Adolescent that has fought a lot and has a lot of power, or can be an Ancient creature that has earned no combat power.

3) All creatures currently attack at a rate of 1.5 seconds. That can be used to determine FPS. I can adjust the attack rate of individual creatures if so desired. I welcome feedback on that.

4) Creature life and damage are currently based on formulas. Most creatures are basically set up like this:

- in child phase life can double based on age and double again based on combat power
- the youngest adult creature starts at 4 times the minimum life
- in adult phase life can double based on age and increase 1.5 times more based on combat power
- overall the max power adult's life would thus be 12 times the youngest baby

- attack power follows a typical progression but the difference between minimum and max damage is around 8 to 10 times.

- Both of these depend on the creature types.

5) I did deliberately set up creatures so that the weakest one type may be weaker than the toughest of a 'lesser' type. For example an ancient, legendary hamster would be more formidable than a baby marmot with no combat experience.

The reasoning behind this is that the 'normal' creatures in Xsyon are not supposed to be entirely normal, hence the unrealistically large sizes on legendary and adult animals.

6) Regarding mutants - any age creature can go into the mist and become a mutant. It's always been that way. I don't intend all mutants to be boss creatures, just the adults and especially the legendary ancient ones should require groups to take down.

I think it will be cool to have some baby mutants that players can have as pets.

7) Regarding large creature hit boxes. The hit boxes scale linearly as the creature scales so it's strange that it wouldn't match a larger creature. I will check it out.

---------------------------------------------

Overall, it sounds like you guys are asking for much less of a difference between a newborn baby critter and a max legendary one for normal creatures. I think a double increase is too little and would make 'ancient legendary' small creatures seem weak.

The minimum power child is supposed to be a newborn that is quite weak.

I think a 2 to 4 times increase in damage and 5 times increase in hp (maybe more) would be better. The current 10 to 12 times increase I guess is too much.

For mutants you guys are asking for a 2 to 4 times damage increase, speed increases and up to a 30 times life increase. That's quite a difference in life but I can try something like that and we'll see.

---------------------------------------------

Questions:

1) Do you guys think that player damage is too much? It scales up a lot compared to creatures because of all the factors involved (strength, skill, weapon quality, skill power).

2) How many hits from a veteran player do you think an ancient legendary mutant bear should be able to take? Around 100 or so attacks? More?

I will update the creature stats based on this feedback and will post again when a new build is ready.

Thanks for the feedback!

Note: I will be switching the data on the Test Server between the Peace and War Server data sets as we have players from both servers that want to test on their main toons.

[Static]

I have not done any additional testing before responding to this, I figure I should prob start by saying that.

Comments so far as I'm reading the feedback:

1) Hamsters and Chickens are equivalent in power. The Squirrels are equivalent. Marmots and Pine Martens are equivalent. I updated the first post to reflect that.

I think this is a good idea to group these together like this. I think the most important part however is to keep the health and damage ratios the same between them, so if your fighting for example a 40hp squirrel it should deal as much damage as a 40hp marmot or rat. This way new players can look at small creatures and know what to expect damage wise by looking at their hps. I think marmot+pine and below should be locked by this rule, while larger game like dogs, coytes, coons, deer and bears should be able to have access to higher values since they will be around new players less in the low danger zones.

2) I added the various age and power ranks to the first post. Age and power are separate. A creature can be an Adolescent that has fought a lot and has a lot of power, or can be an Ancient creature that has earned no combat power.

Its good to get a clear list of how your organizing the names/titles, so this helps clear up what I'm looking at in their names.

3) All creatures currently attack at a rate of 1.5 seconds. That can be used to determine FPS. I can adjust the attack rate of individual creatures if so desired. I welcome feedback on that.

Whats player weapon attack rates? Between the two values we should be able to figure out dps of both the player and creatures to more accurately balance this.

4) Creature life and damage are currently based on formulas. Most creatures are basically set up like this:

- in child phase life can double based on age and double again based on combat power
- the youngest adult creature starts at 4 times the minimum life
- in adult phase life can double based on age and increase 1.5 times more based on combat power
- overall the max power adult's life would thus be 12 times the youngest baby

- attack power follows a typical progression but the difference between minimum and max damage is around 8 to 10 times.

- Both of these depend on the creature types.

I think the difference here is too wide and there would be benefit to tightening up these values so theres not such a wide difference between creatures.

You could keep the currently system of using so many life updates, however, would just have to change the min and max values so that each step along the way added less hps so the difference between min and max wasn't as much since each "times" would add less hp, while the creature starting with more base hp. This would give the end creature the same hp while making the younger stages more tanky and closer to the final creature so there isn't such a power difference between them.

5) I did deliberately set up creatures so that the weakest one type may be weaker than the toughest of a 'lesser' type. For example an ancient, legendary hamster would be more formidable than a baby marmot with no combat experience.
The reasoning behind this is that the 'normal' creatures in Xsyon are not supposed to be entirely normal, hence the unrealistically large sizes on legendary and adult animals.

this makes sense, but currently with higher end creatures having hps at around 40hps for children than it seems like they are weaker than they should be, a deer child could be possibly as weak as a dog or cat but anything lower seems too weak due to its blunt size, its born the size of a smaller dog and bigger than a cat, so it shouldn't be any weaker than that.
I agree the creature size could go up in general, the older ones could be a lil bigger and the freshly born are nearly a dot you can't click so the range of size should be tightened up too so its not such a wide difference.

6) Regarding mutants - any age creature can go into the mist and become a mutant. It's always been that way. I don't intend all mutants to be boss creatures, just the adults and especially the legendary ancient ones should require groups to take down.

I agree that there should be some less strong versions so not every one is a boss..... However... I really don't think a 50hp or even 100hp or less mutant child at 0.20 to .040 power is a very good mutant.

Could we do something in the middle and make it so that only 0.60 power and higher can become mutants? so .6 .8 and 1.0 creatures can become mutants while .20 and .40 need to age up more before? Seems silly to convert .20 and .40 creaures to mutants when they are just going to be a weak version of a "boss" but also give bad drops.

I think it will be cool to have some baby mutants that players can have as pets.

I don't disagree it would be cool, but wouldn't it be extremely over powered to capture a baby mutant than raise it up to fully grown? How would this be balanced in pvp if you can show up with a 2-3k hp bear after raising it?

7) Regarding large creature hit boxes. The hit boxes scale linearly as the creature scales so it's strange that it wouldn't match a larger creature. I will check it out.

maybe its placement? Cuz you seem to be able to hit mutant bears fine from the front, however, you gotta be like inside of his butt to be able to hit him from behind. Same with deer, fully grown ones seem to be only able to hit from front, not from the back.

So it could be a centering issue, where due to how the box is centered its going more towards the face than the rear, so the creature character blocking is preventing us from getting to where the box is from the back cuz its too far forward on the creature character.

---------------------------------------------

Overall, it sounds like you guys are asking for much less of a difference between a newborn baby critter and a max legendary one for normal creatures. I think a double increase is too little and would make 'ancient legendary' small creatures seem weak.

The minimum power child is supposed to be a newborn that is quite weak.

I think a 2 to 4 times increase in damage and 5 times increase in hp (maybe more) would be better. The current 10 to 12 times increase I guess is too much.

For mutants you guys are asking for a 2 to 4 times damage increase, speed increases and up to a 30 times life increase. That's quite a difference in life but I can try something like that and we'll see.

This all sounds great, by making less power ups it could make the gaps closer.... However... if you lowered the amount each increase was you could keep the same times of increase by changing the values so each increase adds less, this way you could have a higher base health and due to the lower increases, the value between max and min would be closer due to less added per increase.

Would require some math to change the value but in theory the current system could be adapted without reducing the amount of increases... however if its easier to just reduce the amount of increases and produces the same result than thats good too.

---------------------------------------------

Questions:

1) Do you guys think that player damage is too much? It scales up a lot compared to creatures because of all the factors involved (strength, skill, weapon quality, skill power).

Currently? No, I think if I'm dealing 30 dmg to a guy with 3k hps I need to hit him 100 times while he only needs to hit me 5 times, so I'd say this is already a extremely hard fight that we would need multiple people for... for sure do not do enough damage to solo this or feel overpowered. This is with a xmas shovel and 109 strength after tribe buff, so above where you think 95% of the game is... so seeing how 95% of people are weaker than me, I really don't think damage should be reduced since nobody has any damage.

Charged attack/power attack or whatever you want to make it to be would be your damage increase.

Currently I feel charged attack is a bit op since it does alot of damage and supports the older style of poke n walk back combat that we're trying to phase away from.

2) How many hits from a veteran player do you think an ancient legendary mutant bear should be able to take? Around 100 or so attacks? More?

Somewhere around 100 hits seems fair, yes, with 5 people you need to hit him 20 times each while the 5 of you can take roughly 20 hits total between you.

Bear should be really really hard, possibly people taking a brake to heal up and use restorative food before heading back in. It should be the ultimate boss in the game, no challenge great than.

I will update the creature stats based on this feedback and will post again when a new build is ready.

Thanks for the feedback!

Note: I will be switching the data on the Test Server between the Peace and War Server data sets as we have players from both servers that want to test on their main toons.

Cool I get to use my peace toon than, this is a good thing cuz I wanted to test with someone who was quite a bit weaker than I am currently on pvp. So this is good, I can test different things now on a weaker guy.

[Xsyon]

I've updated the Test Server with stats similar to what was suggested.

In general, I took the suggested values for the range between the weakest adult and the most powerful, ancient adult for each creature, with lower values for the baby creatures. So the range in values from the weakest baby to the most powerful adult are more around 2-3 times for damage and 4-5 times for life.

Mutant life, especially for the legendary ancients, I set very high. Maybe too high. We'll see.

I think the rest makes pretty good sense but as usual I am open to further feedback.

I haven't adjusted attack speeds but I will do that next.

Thanks!

[MrDDT]

I've updated the Test Server with stats similar to what was suggested.

In general, I took the suggested values for the range between the weakest adult and the most powerful, ancient adult for each creature, with lower values for the baby creatures. So the range in values from the weakest baby to the most powerful adult are more around 2-3 times for damage and 4-5 times for life.

Mutant life, especially for the legendary ancients, I set very high. Maybe too high. We'll see.

I think the rest makes pretty good sense but as usual I am open to further feedback.

I haven't adjusted attack speeds but I will do that next.

Thanks!

Running around and looking at the HP of animals (normal) they look great.
Mutants look good for what you wanted high HP for groups of medium to max skill to kill.
(I do want to put a word of warning here, there are not a lot of current group hunting so this will seem very rare unless people change to wanting to go out in groups) My suggestion is because of this, mutants should give more resources (especially hides) this will encourage groups to want to hunt them.

I believe that mutants because of how hard they are and will be requiring groups should get 1.25 x resources per age level and 1.25 x per power level.

This would make examples.
Child Rookie give 1.5 x resources.
Child Lessor give 1.75 x resources.
Adult Greater give 3 x resources.
Ancient Legendary give 4 x resources.


Damage looks pretty good to maybe a bit to high on all the animals I see (including mutants) I'm wearing 100QL armor.

I believe another factor here should likely be instead of lowering damage a bit, I think a better option is increase the effect of armors (player).

This looks really good. I do believe ALL mutants need to be increased in size. They are not big enough for their power/HP and players need to be able to see this is not just a meek rat.